EPTSK MC's thoughts on the current state of SC2 - Page 43
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
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DeathDyingDoomKiller
Canada91 Posts
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XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
On September 04 2013 03:53 forumtext wrote: Somehow your post reminded me of this scene(skip to 2:40). MC is the Neo of SC2? This movie always make me feel uneasy  | ||
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ETisME
12759 Posts
On September 05 2013 05:57 TheDwf wrote: The 3/3 vs 2/2 talk is completely overrated because it neglects other critical factors such as oncreep/offcreep, Baneling connections, the amount of Mines and the efficiency of their hits, the size of the Mutalisk cloud, the Medivac count, the positioning of the armies, and of course micro from both sides. Saying that 3/3 instantly swings the game towards Terran is preposterous since it completely depends on the course of the game. 3/3 vs 2/2 is an advantage, of course, but it's not at all the end of the world or a guaranteed Terran win. There is a plethora of games in which 2/2 lings/banes/mutas is competing fine against 3/3 4M for quite a long period of time, and I don't want to shock you but I heard Zerg even won some of them (e. g. 2 cases today in the GSL). If it is end of the game level of advantage then obviously TvZ would be even more imbalanced. It doesn't make the current tvz anymore balanced however. I have said this and repeat here again: I can find a lot more games where terran roll over the zerg with 3 3 bio than zerg winning with 2 2 against 3 3 bio Again, if jd beat bomber push after losing 15 drones and then defended that push, it doesn't mean zerg is op or easy to replace drones because if jd didn't lose those 15drones, that push bomber did would just be even easier to beat because jd won't need to do another round of drones | ||
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FalconHoof
Canada183 Posts
"We should take all the hate towards the League of Legends scene and put it towards improving the Starcraft II scene." Epic words. | ||
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
Anyway, I think what MC criticizes in younger players, he would have found in his younger self as well. So it sounds awfully like the usual "dem kids know no respect". | ||
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ElMeanYo
United States1032 Posts
On September 06 2013 14:16 MaRCsoN wrote: "We should take all the hate towards the League of Legends scene and put it towards improving the Starcraft II scene." Epic words. Epic words but a little naive (no offense to you Terry). The best way to improve the scene is to improve the game. The only one who can really improve this game is Blizz and we have no control over them. They seem to be satisfied with the status quo. | ||
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GhostTK
United States26 Posts
EDIT: not lurkers i means vipers lol. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On September 06 2013 16:46 GhostTK wrote: My question with ZvT is that, why dont zergs get lurkers and swarmhosts? Those units arent even being built and they are GREAT against the bio force of Terran. Blinding cloud makes it so that Zerg's banelings cant be targeted by widow mines. uhhhhh... no widow mine's attacks are abilities, therefore blinding cloud doesn't work on it... same reason as why window mines do the damage they do to immortals' shields | ||
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DrPandaPhD
5188 Posts
On September 06 2013 16:46 GhostTK wrote: My question with ZvT is that, why dont zergs get lurkers and swarmhosts? Those units arent even being built and they are GREAT against the bio force of Terran. Blinding cloud makes it so that Zerg's banelings cant be targeted by widow mines. Good job, you figured out ZvT before any of the professional zerg players did. You clearly understand the game better than them who on average plays the matchup 2-3hours a day. The problem is that they can't actually get to lategame because they die before hive. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On September 06 2013 16:46 GhostTK wrote: My question with ZvT is that, why dont zergs get lurkers and swarmhosts? Those units arent even being built and they are GREAT against the bio force of Terran. Blinding cloud makes it so that Zerg's banelings cant be targeted by widow mines. Yeah, why no one gets lurkers? | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On September 06 2013 16:52 zhurai wrote: uhhhhh... no widow mine's attacks are abilities, therefore blinding cloud doesn't work on it... same reason as why window mines do the damage they do to immortals' shields + lurkers arent in the game...which they should be. strong lurker would deal with bio mine, make tanks used more often and finally give Z a sustained space control unit. | ||
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strcpy
United States2 Posts
On September 06 2013 16:46 GhostTK wrote: My question with ZvT is that, why dont zergs get lurkers and swarmhosts? Did you mean vipers instead of lurkers here? I think a lot of Zerg players wouldn't mind having lurkers.  Those units arent even being built and they are GREAT against the bio force of Terran. Blinding cloud makes it so that Zerg's banelings cant be targeted by widow mines. I'm still quite the nub, but ISTM the bio mobility and scans would make it pretty difficult to be effective with swarm hosts. Add in drops, and it seems like it would be very difficult to keep swarm hosts alive, and they're definitely not cheap. With regard to vipers: interesting thought, but I wonder how cost-effective it would be to use them in high-level play. Like I said, I'm still a nub figuring the game out, so take this all with a grain of salt. | ||
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Trevo
41 Posts
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Hadronsbecrazy
United Kingdom551 Posts
Remove the hellion and the widow mine and bring back the vulture with spider mines being the researchable upgrade. That way you still have the mines (which are one use only like back in brood war and each vulture has I think 3 of them) and the vultures speed gives teh run by potential that the hellions offer in terms of harass. Also brining back teh science vessel into multiplayer for terran, I think this could help make Mech more generally viable since hte science vessel heals mech, (since it looks like mech is only really used in TvT nowadays) What do you guys think of the proposed changes? (I'm not from Blizzard, I'm just spitballing some ideas to see if they sound ok) Surely the modders out there could make a custom game where these tow changes are there so that we can see if there are balance problems? | ||
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Hadronsbecrazy
United Kingdom551 Posts
On September 06 2013 16:58 DrPandaPhD wrote: Good job, you figured out ZvT before any of the professional zerg players did. You clearly understand the game better than them who on average plays the matchup 2-3hours a day. The problem is that they can't actually get to lategame because they die before hive. Lurkers arent in SC2 >.< , and swarmhosts get shutdown by bio if you dont have anything on top of them for protection form drops | ||
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ntssauce
Germany750 Posts
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Jawra
Sweden146 Posts
there are fundamental problems with Starcraft 2 at the moment - like that 3base economy is optimal. There is no additional benefit from taking and mining from more bases than 3 at the same time. And of course there is the 5sec Deathballfights into GG which stems from flaws in the design of mostly the Protoss and Zerg race. Protoss flaw: Warptech and the fact that Stalkers are so weak. Both of these makes for a stale midgame where the Protoss simply has to get out higher tech to even move out on the map but if they do, then it's called an all-in, not aggression or assault - an all-in. Warptech removed Defender's Advantage by enabling you to reinforce straight across the map which also contributes to such weird matchup where if you are down 10 supply against a Protoss, guess what..he's going to charge your ass and you'll die instantly without any chance of a comeback because of him warping in just outside your base. Solution: remove warptech and buff stalker damage to stabilize midgame and remove deathballing. Zerg flaw: This race's flaw comes into play mostly in the Zerg versus Terran matchup. Here we see Widow Mines, a previously planned Defensive/Area control unit being abused offensively when the Terran secures 3bases and then just starts the endless parade of WidowMineBio towards the Zerg's 3-4'th which never stops until either the Zerg is dead or the Zerg actually survives and gets to Hive tech where Ultralisks come into play and perhaps even Infestors. To mix this matchup up to a much more enjoyable gamestyle either now or by LotV you would have to make two change to the Zerg race, none to the other. If this change were to come into play I would be certain that lots of transitions would be happening: I'd see the Raven being used in a totally different way, even in BioMine, I'd see a Mechtransition actually be viable in TvZ which in turn would lead to a Swarm Host transition, etc etc. Solution in LotV: Lair tech enables you to morph roaches into lurkers(armored unit) and introduce the scourge to the spire to hinder the Terran from just avoiding your lurkers and doing drops everywhere. On top of these changes there should also be additional benefit to having more than 3 bases. If one of the players gets to 6 bases against his opponents 3...he should be in an economical lead and easily be outmassing his opponent. Solution: reduce resource collection from each individual base. Would anyone agree with this being the matter of Starcraft2 atm? Please correct me if I am wrong. | ||
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Hadronsbecrazy
United Kingdom551 Posts
On September 06 2013 22:25 Jawra wrote: I love Starcraft 2: it has some cool new units, it has awesome graphics and many matchups are actually fun to watch, but there are fundamental problems with Starcraft 2 at the moment - like that 3base economy is optimal. There is no additional benefit from taking and mining from more bases than 3 at the same time. And of course there is the 5sec Deathballfights into GG which stems from flaws in the design of mostly the Protoss and Zerg race. Protoss flaw: Warptech and the fact that Stalkers are so weak. Both of these makes for a stale midgame where the Protoss simply has to get out higher tech to even move out on the map but if they do, then it's called an all-in, not aggression or assault - an all-in. Warptech removed Defender's Advantage by enabling you to reinforce straight across the map which also contributes to such weird matchup where if you are down 10 supply against a Protoss, guess what..he's going to charge your ass and you'll die instantly without any chance of a comeback because of him warping in just outside your base. Solution: remove warptech and buff stalker damage to stabilize midgame and remove deathballing. Zerg flaw: This race's flaw comes into play mostly in the Zerg versus Terran matchup. Here we see Widow Mines, a previously planned Defensive/Area control unit being abused offensively when the Terran secures 3bases and then just starts the endless parade of WidowMineBio towards the Zerg's 3-4'th which never stops until either the Zerg is dead or the Zerg actually survives and gets to Hive tech where Ultralisks come into play and perhaps even Infestors. To mix this matchup up to a much more enjoyable gamestyle either now or by LotV you would have to make two change to the Zerg race, none to the other. If this change were to come into play I would be certain that lots of transitions would be happening: I'd see the Raven being used in a totally different way, even in BioMine, I'd see a Mechtransition actually be viable in TvZ which in turn would lead to a Swarm Host transition, etc etc. Solution in LotV: Lair tech enables you to morph roaches into lurkers(armored unit) and introduce the scourge to the spire to hinder the Terran from just avoiding your lurkers and doing drops everywhere. On top of these changes there should also be additional benefit to having more than 3 bases. If one of the players gets to 6 bases against his opponents 3...he should be in an economical lead and easily be outmassing his opponent. Solution: reduce resource collection from each individual base. Would anyone agree with this being the matter of Starcraft2 atm? Please correct me if I am wrong. Jawra, those are great suggestions, maybe worth sending in your opinion to blizzard? I compltely agree with the warp tech and the fact that mech has to be more viable vs zerg adn protoss. If anyone disagrees, just watch that DRG vs Gumiho match from todays GSL game. I generally speaking though think terran mech needs to be changed otherwise is not viable in any matchup apart from TvT . I made what I thought was a pretty good suggestion for the widow mine, and it involved bringing back vultures and make the mines a researchable upgrade. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On September 06 2013 22:25 Jawra wrote: I love Starcraft 2: it has some cool new units, it has awesome graphics and many matchups are actually fun to watch, but there are fundamental problems with Starcraft 2 at the moment - like that 3base economy is optimal. There is no additional benefit from taking and mining from more bases than 3 at the same time. And of course there is the 5sec Deathballfights into GG which stems from flaws in the design of mostly the Protoss and Zerg race. Protoss flaw: Warptech and the fact that Stalkers are so weak. Both of these makes for a stale midgame where the Protoss simply has to get out higher tech to even move out on the map but if they do, then it's called an all-in, not aggression or assault - an all-in. Warptech removed Defender's Advantage by enabling you to reinforce straight across the map which also contributes to such weird matchup where if you are down 10 supply against a Protoss, guess what..he's going to charge your ass and you'll die instantly without any chance of a comeback because of him warping in just outside your base. Solution: remove warptech and buff stalker damage to stabilize midgame and remove deathballing. Zerg flaw: This race's flaw comes into play mostly in the Zerg versus Terran matchup. Here we see Widow Mines, a previously planned Defensive/Area control unit being abused offensively when the Terran secures 3bases and then just starts the endless parade of WidowMineBio towards the Zerg's 3-4'th which never stops until either the Zerg is dead or the Zerg actually survives and gets to Hive tech where Ultralisks come into play and perhaps even Infestors. To mix this matchup up to a much more enjoyable gamestyle either now or by LotV you would have to make two change to the Zerg race, none to the other. If this change were to come into play I would be certain that lots of transitions would be happening: I'd see the Raven being used in a totally different way, even in BioMine, I'd see a Mechtransition actually be viable in TvZ which in turn would lead to a Swarm Host transition, etc etc. Solution in LotV: Lair tech enables you to morph roaches into lurkers(armored unit) and introduce the scourge to the spire to hinder the Terran from just avoiding your lurkers and doing drops everywhere. On top of these changes there should also be additional benefit to having more than 3 bases. If one of the players gets to 6 bases against his opponents 3...he should be in an economical lead and easily be outmassing his opponent. Solution: reduce resource collection from each individual base. Would anyone agree with this being the matter of Starcraft2 atm? Please correct me if I am wrong. lurker + bane would give zerg a LOT of AoE. To balance, tank siege range would have to be increase a lot. Raven will probably need Irradiate, etc... So basically going back to SC:BW units which is not necessary a bad thing but not the direction Blizzard wants. That is the core issue with adding some BW units (lurkers) to the mix. They kinda need counters to them (which themselves are BW units/spells) and the cycle continues. | ||
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. Require Armory, with good anti air to compliment siege tank? As ultimate unit of terran mech, it has ground twin cannon doing respectable dmg. 12 dmg with good rate of fire. 
