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SK MC's thoughts on the current state of SC2 - Page 45
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beg
991 Posts
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Account252508
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On September 10 2013 19:01 monkybone wrote: MC has some very good points, strategic diversity is enormously important. That's why bbyoungs BC rush vs sleep was one of the most interesting games the last few months. TvZ is becoming very stale, and the main problem is the inability for Zerg to tech & upgrade while defending. The solution is probably not to bring the infestor back, but some easy-to-get high tech unit needs to be effective against the standard terran composition. The ultra is the obvious solution, it really needs to fulfill a role as an anti bio-mine unit. Yeah, you'd think that widow mines would have lots of different purposes, like spider mines in Brood War, but it's mostly just to support bio armies in straight up fights. Not enough strategic diversity. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 10 2013 19:01 monkybone wrote: MC has some very good points, strategic diversity is enormously important. That's why bbyoungs BC rush vs sleep was one of the most interesting games the last few months. TvZ is becoming very stale, and the main problem is the inability for Zerg to tech & upgrade while defending. The solution is probably not to bring the infestor back, but some easy-to-get high tech unit needs to be effective against the standard terran composition. The ultra is the obvious solution, it really needs to fulfill a role as an anti bio-mine unit. Well, the Infestor would be the obvious solution, as it's just logical that the splash spellcaster is costefficient against a composition whose only weakness is splash... But that will not happen a) for historical reasons b) that would simoultanously require that Terrans can transition into Infestor counters, so more balancing would have to be done. But yeah, the best scenario would be that a Zerg can shut down massive marine/mine pushes with infestors and then the Terran can transition into tanks/ghosts. Basically more hightech positional units, so that we are not walking that razor edge where both sides just try to win the slugfest with MOOOOOOORE units and the one that tries to transition just dies to the lack of units. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On September 10 2013 19:19 Big J wrote: Well, the Infestor would be the obvious solution, as it's just logical that the splash spellcaster is costefficient against a composition whose only weakness is splash... But that will not happen a) for historical reasons b) that would simoultanously require that Terrans can transition into Infestor counters, so more balancing would have to be done. But yeah, the best scenario would be that a Zerg can shut down massive marine/mine pushes with infestors and then the Terran can transition into tanks/ghosts. Basically more hightech positional units, so that we are not walking that razor edge where both sides just try to win the slugfest with MOOOOOOORE units and the one that tries to transition just dies to the lack of units. I thought it was weird when David Kim would almost bash on infestors when it became obvious the community disliked them so much. In the HotS beta write-ups he would constantly say that they wanted the infestor to be weak, that he was looking for excuses to nerf the infestor a bit more etc. I don't think infestors were that powerful before HotS release anyway. They had already received a few nerfs before, it's just that the meta didn't have time to reshuffle and what zerg was doing was still working. I don't think there was any reason to believe that infestors needed even more nerfs. Currently it's almost sad how weak they are. (I still like that fungal is a projectile though, but keep in mind they also lowered the damage and even made infested terrans not scale with upgrades in the transition to HotS) Game designers should ideally not take traumatic feelings by the community into consideration in deciding on what to buff/nerf. | ||
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Parcelleus
Australia1662 Posts
MC's points are all true and David Kim and the team need to attend to these issues asap. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On September 10 2013 19:53 Parcelleus wrote: Fungals arnt supposed to be a high-damage dealing unit, its main job is to hold enemy units still for few seconds which is a very powerful ability during army battles. I think Blizzard have got it right. MC's points are all true and David Kim and the team need to attend to these issues asap. agree that fungal is in a good state right now. still infestor is in a pretty weak state. i think reversing IT egg nerf and buffing NP to range 8 would be a nice thing to help infestors without making them massable again since IT getting no upgrades would still mean they become useless if massed. the general idea of giving Z a hivetech unit that counters bio mine much more than now is a good thing though. buff BC vs mobile armies and buff ultras would force T to transition/build counter units. now that the transition of T is in a bad state they need to buff the transition so T has to tansition out of MMMM but also is able to. would love to see thor AA buffed, tanks buffed, ultras buffed, BLs buffed, blinding cloud vs mobile buffed and also transition to BCs buffed (faster buildtime for example). | ||
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Sephy90
United States1785 Posts
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On September 10 2013 20:24 Decendos wrote: agree that fungal is in a good state right now. still infestor is in a pretty weak state. i think reversing IT egg nerf and buffing NP to range 8 would be a nice thing to help infestors without making them massable again since IT getting no upgrades would still mean they become useless if massed. the general idea of giving Z a hivetech unit that counters bio mine much more than now is a good thing though. buff BC vs mobile armies and buff ultras would force T to transition/build counter units. now that the transition of T is in a bad state they need to buff the transition so T has to tansition out of MMMM but also is able to. would love to see thor AA buffed, tanks buffed, ultras buffed, BLs buffed, blinding cloud vs mobile buffed and also transition to BCs buffed (faster buildtime for example). What are you going to NP? A marine? A medivac? Make it 20 won't help matchup. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On September 10 2013 20:24 Decendos wrote: agree that fungal is in a good state right now. still infestor is in a pretty weak state. i think reversing IT egg nerf and buffing NP to range 8 would be a nice thing to help infestors without making them massable again since IT getting no upgrades would still mean they become useless if massed. the general idea of giving Z a hivetech unit that counters bio mine much more than now is a good thing though. buff BC vs mobile armies and buff ultras would force T to transition/build counter units. now that the transition of T is in a bad state they need to buff the transition so T has to tansition out of MMMM but also is able to. would love to see thor AA buffed, tanks buffed, ultras buffed, BLs buffed, blinding cloud vs mobile buffed and also transition to BCs buffed (faster buildtime for example). Some guy advised adding +bio damage to fungal. It'd also fix mass roach/muta strategies in ZvZ. Ofc, it'd make Z>T. So maybe fungal shouldn't affect massive units, or infested terran should be removed, since its useless vs bio anyway but counters mech hard. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On September 10 2013 19:11 Grumbels wrote: Yeah, you'd think that widow mines would have lots of different purposes, like spider mines in Brood War, but it's mostly just to support bio armies in straight up fights. Not enough strategic diversity. The problem is that widow mines cost supply unlike spider mines, which make terran players wary of using them in any other purpose than a straight up engagement, because it might be dead supply otherwise. Also they are basically free fodder or one use only if you deploy them somewhere unsupported, since any skilled player will clear them once spotted. :-/ | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
However, I put in so much work and effort in trying to improve myself by hanging out with many foreigners such as Jinro, Huk, Ret, TLO. This led me to gain confidence. Right now, there are European players that are worse at English than me. But they do not bring a translator with them to events. They just talk confidently and do not care whether they are right or wrong. The only reason that we (Korean progamers) have Korean translators is because we (Korean progamers) are the best at SCII. Frankly, we (Korean progamers) don’t even practice SC II 24 hours. I think it shows true professionalism when you learn English in your spare time and speak enough English to introduce yourself and do an interview by yourself. You should prove to the world that you are a pro by putting up results. Shouldn’t you also be a pro by proving your values? You should stride to be a pro that interacts with the fans and throw some fun trash talks, while putting up results. There is opportunity cost associated with learning English... Basically he's saying it is superior for programers to learn English. I hate talk like that. You take your values, and make it sound like anyone who does it is better, when it's all subjective and not actually superior. If you learn English, sure it helps with that, and interacting with fans. so what? If you go learn poker instead of english and do well, that's superior in terms of finances and risk management, and life in general. If you go get a girlfriend then that's superior in terms of life happiness. stick to talking about starcraft... | ||
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JohnnieMo
1 Post
But no, as soon as a high level pro comes out and finally says it, the Philistines pay homage. It's funny enough to warrant mentioning. Regardless, something has been wrong with this game since it was released. Personally I believe it has always been fundamentally broken simply due to Terran having much much more diversity than the other two races. When one race dwarfs the other two in terms of unit/worker/spell options, balance is inherently impossible. This is why we saw Z buffed to combat an absolutely horrible winrate % vs, terran in early WoL and then Protoss simply being unable to beat Z without getting the essentially useless slug of a mothership and then Z simply altering it's metagame by spreading its units and gg Protoss. Now we have problems with TvZ showing up because tier 1 T armies effectively do not die and neither do their bases. Even when they lose a large amount of workers, no big deal, just call down 20 mules and instantly mine 2x more minerals / minute than a Z or P on 3 bases. If Z or P loses half it's worker, >80% of the time it's game over. That's just one example of why you see Z or P needing to play basically perfect and one small micro mistake or missed drop could mean the game. This simple fundamental concept does not exist for T. But Blizzard still refuses to change the number of options for the other two races. Before the HOTS new units were revealed, I'm thinking finally Z and P can get some nice hard counters to terran tier 1. But no, terran gets even MORE diversity for it's tier 1 units with the ridiculous bat and the dropship boost (seriously?). What does P get? An absolutely useless oracle and the ping pong ball shooter Tempest which counters Brood Lords but does NOTHING against anything else in the game. Zerg finally gets something to sort of minimize the destruction of Siege Tanks (blinding cloud) and the swarm host, which is good against T but essentially makes it near impossible for P to beat a turtling zerg, The whole game needs to be effectively remade or binned, and they need to start by either limiting T options (worst option) or expanding the options of the other two races. The fact that both Z and P need to tech up to tier 2 or 3 simply to survive against Terran MMM is beyond ludicrous but it isn't the problem; it merely reveals the problem which is that terran is simply too diverse and too hard to kill. It has always been beyond simple balancing, and it really shouldn't have taken 4 years for everyone to get on board with it. Many of us could see it within months of the initial release of WoL. Maybe the developers can finally start listening, swallow their pride, and get down to business. The potential for an epic game is there but the need for something much more broad than simple tweaking is long long overdue. | ||
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traceurling
United States1240 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 10 2013 21:35 JohnnieMo wrote: It really is quite hilarious to see so many people giving support to MC. The vast majority of those doing so would normally be the ones screaming 'QQ, adapt!' if anyone else complained about TvZ or any other matchup. But no, as soon as a high level pro comes out and finally says it, the Philistines pay homage. It's funny enough to warrant mentioning. Regardless, something has been wrong with this game since it was released. Personally I believe it has always been fundamentally broken simply due to Terran having much much more diversity than the other two races. When one race dwarfs the other two in terms of unit/worker/spell options, balance is inherently impossible. This is why we saw Z buffed to combat an absolutely horrible winrate % vs, terran in early WoL and then Protoss simply being unable to beat Z without getting the essentially useless slug of a mothership and then Z simply altering it's metagame by spreading its units and gg Protoss. Now we have problems with TvZ showing up because tier 1 T armies effectively do not die and neither do their bases. Even when they lose a large amount of workers, no big deal, just call down 20 mules and instantly mine 2x more minerals / minute than a Z or P on 3 bases. If Z or P loses half it's worker, >80% of the time it's game over. That's just one example of why you see Z or P needing to play basically perfect and one small micro mistake or missed drop could mean the game. This simple fundamental concept does not exist for T. But Blizzard still refuses to change the number of options for the other two races. Before the HOTS new units were revealed, I'm thinking finally Z and P can get some nice hard counters to terran tier 1. But no, terran gets even MORE diversity for it's tier 1 units with the ridiculous bat and the dropship boost (seriously?). What does P get? An absolutely useless oracle and the ping pong ball shooter Tempest which counters Brood Lords but does NOTHING against anything else in the game. Zerg finally gets something to sort of minimize the destruction of Siege Tanks (blinding cloud) and the swarm host, which is good against T but essentially makes it near impossible for P to beat a turtling zerg, The whole game needs to be effectively remade or binned, and they need to start by either limiting T options (worst option) or expanding the options of the other two races. The fact that both Z and P need to tech up to tier 2 or 3 simply to survive against Terran MMM is beyond ludicrous but it isn't the problem; it merely reveals the problem which is that terran is simply too diverse and too hard to kill. It has always been beyond simple balancing, and it really shouldn't have taken 4 years for everyone to get on board with it. Many of us could see it within months of the initial release of WoL. Maybe the developers can finally start listening, swallow their pride, and get down to business. The potential for an epic game is there but the need for something much more broad than simple tweaking is long long overdue. Did you just drop in with your first post on the site and used the phrase "the Philistines pay homage" to describe people in the community? Really? And then drop some fat knowledge on us, like we haven't heard this all before? | ||
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ChristianS
United States3262 Posts
On September 11 2013 04:25 Plansix wrote: Did you just drop in with your first post on the site and used the phrase "the Philistines pay homage" to describe people in the community? Really? And then drop some fat knowledge on us, like we haven't heard this all before? Yeah, that seems to be about the look of things. What's odd to me is that we've heard the "T has too many options" argument a lot of times before, but it doesn't even seem particularly applicable to current TvZ. Terran is pretty much pidgeonholed into bio armies with widow mine support, with maybe a late-game raven transition. For that matter, the argument that T has the advantage because he can lose workers and not be dead is a bit odd, too. Zerg is easily the best race for coming back from a big worker deficit. But hey, welcome to TL, JohnnieMo | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On September 11 2013 05:19 ChristianS wrote: Yeah, that seems to be about the look of things. What's odd to me is that we've heard the "T has too many options" argument a lot of times before, but it doesn't even seem particularly applicable to current TvZ. Terran is pretty much pidgeonholed into bio armies with widow mine support, with maybe a late-game raven transition. For that matter, the argument that T has the advantage because he can lose workers and not be dead is a bit odd, too. Zerg is easily the best race for coming back from a big worker deficit. But hey, welcome to TL, JohnnieMo http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=418830 I think it's terran that can most easily come back from worker deficits. :o | ||
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