|
On August 27 2013 09:03 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 07:01 blade55555 wrote:
This change won't change zvt at all lol. Imo a good one would be allowing research of 3/3 after starting infestation pit. I don't see how it would be imbalanced at all considering protoss and terran only have to make 1 more building to start 2/2 and 3/3 (twilight for toss, armory for terran). Different races are different. Terrans need one building (Armory 150/100/65s) for 2/2 and 3/3 upgrades, Protoss is similar - 150/100/50. Zergs need one "building" too for 3/3 upgrades - Hive for 250/150/100s, which also allows other things too, like broods and ultras.
I love stuff like this, shows how easy it is to justify whatever the fuck you want to justify.
Both the Terran and Protoss upgrade structures require 150/100, the major difference is required tech and the 15 additional seconds for the Armory as compared to the Council, then you jump to the Zerg building which is 100 more minerals, 50 more gas, and 35 more seconds compared to the armory, 50 if you compare it to the citadel.
If you weren't so busy justifying and protecting the status quo, you might look at the Lair, which is also 150/100, and takes another 15 seconds longer than the Armor and *gasp* this would make all 3 races similar in the sense that 1 building allows 2/2 and 3/3 for T1 units.
But it's ok, let's all keep changing the mantra: "different races are different"
|
On August 27 2013 04:27 Plansix wrote:
I agree with their approach of one step at a time. I like the idea of making mech viable, it is just a question of getting that done without breaking the entire game. They should focus on making the transition from hellions to battle hellions more viable without the use of a tech lab or armory. Anything to make that transition more natural in a standard build.
And for everyone who is going to say “just buff tanks”. I feel safe is saying that likely tried that and it just made marine/tank more viable, with mines for extra AOE awesome.
I don't think they should buff Mech if it is not a Tank buff, since everything else Mech is basicly a-move. I strongly believe that a buff to Tanks and nerf to Widow Mines would make TvZ much more enjoyable and also possibly making Mech viable.
As i see it the problem with Widow Mines right now is that it is a unit that is good against everything Zerg, a bit like how Infestors used to be good against everything. At this point there is simply no obvious counter to Widow Mines. One of the strengths of Zerg is the ability to switch tech faster than the two other races, but this strength makes no difference when the best answer against Zerg will always be: make more Widow Mines.
I believe that Tanks should get a substantial buff in Siege mode, while bringing back the upgrade requirement and nerfing Widow Mines to the ground, or redesign them altogether. Also there should be a buff to Mech anti-air since Thors doesn't cut it against Mutas anymore.
|
On August 27 2013 09:15 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 04:27 Plansix wrote:
I agree with their approach of one step at a time. I like the idea of making mech viable, it is just a question of getting that done without breaking the entire game. They should focus on making the transition from hellions to battle hellions more viable without the use of a tech lab or armory. Anything to make that transition more natural in a standard build.
And for everyone who is going to say “just buff tanks”. I feel safe is saying that likely tried that and it just made marine/tank more viable, with mines for extra AOE awesome.
I don't think they should buff Mech if it is not a Tank buff, since everything else Mech is basicly a-move. I strongly believe that a buff to Tanks and nerf to Widow Mines would make TvZ much more enjoyable and also possibly making Mech viable. As i see it the problem with Widow Mines right now is that it is a unit that is good against everything Zerg, a bit like how Infestors used to be good against everything. At this point there is simply no obvious counter to Widow Mines. One of the strengths of Zerg is the ability to switch tech faster than the two other races, but this strength makes no difference when the best answer against Zerg will always be: make more Widow Mines. I believe that Tanks should get a substantial buff in Siege mode, while bringing back the upgrade requirement and nerfing Widow Mines to the ground, or redesign them altogether. Also there should be a buff to Mech anti-air since Thors doesn't cut it against Mutas anymore.
I agree because the disposing of tanks so fast is a disappointing outcome for something supposedly strong. They're supposed to be a greater force.
The Widow Mine problem would be simply fixed by roughly doubling the cost (150min 75 gas) and/or decreasing the splash radius. They're great early for expanding, but not a traveling unit (it seems out of character that a mine traverses the map with the rest of the army).
|
|
|
Probably a good patch, although I'm always worried to see Zerg buffed :p
"Queen's range +2" *shudders*
|
the day mech becomes viable is the day everyone plays terran unless bio is nerfed before then
they already dominate quite well even when everyone knows whats coming.
|
I am a terran and still I feel from the games I have seen lately, that zergs have it a bit to tough against the bio+mine strategies we have seen lots of since the release of hots.
I hope this change will make it easier for zerg to use their mutas to some mines and marines without loosing to much, so they have a little bit of an easier time, when the real engagement finally happens (because of the missing 2-3-4 mines compared to before)  Maybe they can even use mutas a bit more offensively as they used to in WoL.
|
On August 27 2013 09:40 VayneAuthority wrote:
the day mech becomes viable is the day everyone plays terran unless bio is nerfed before then
they already dominate quite well even when everyone knows whats coming.
Why is that? Mech being viable would not make Terran as a race stronger, it would merely give Terran more than one viable tech path.
|
On August 27 2013 09:03 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 07:01 blade55555 wrote:
This change won't change zvt at all lol. Imo a good one would be allowing research of 3/3 after starting infestation pit. I don't see how it would be imbalanced at all considering protoss and terran only have to make 1 more building to start 2/2 and 3/3 (twilight for toss, armory for terran). Different races are different. Terrans need one building (Armory 150/100/65s) for 2/2 and 3/3 upgrades, Protoss is similar - 150/100/50. Zergs need one "building" too for 3/3 upgrades - Hive for 250/150/100s, which also allows other things too, like broods and ultras.
Uh is that the best argument you can come up with? Just because god forbid they let zergs start 3/3 off of 1 building just like terran/protoss doesn't make them similar at all. Why is it fine for protoss and terran to do it but if we do it for zerg oh no the races are identical now?
I mean here is the difference, terran makes an armory (150/100 iirc), protoss makes a twilight(150/150 right?) and bam they can get 2/2 3/3.
Zerg has to make a lair 150/100 (we can even exclude this if you want), an infestation pit 100/100 AND go hive which is another 200/150 (or 200/100 can't remember which) before they can get 3-3. It still costs a zerg more money AND time to start 3/3 then the other races.
|
On August 27 2013 09:14 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 09:03 Existor wrote:On August 27 2013 07:01 blade55555 wrote:
This change won't change zvt at all lol. Imo a good one would be allowing research of 3/3 after starting infestation pit. I don't see how it would be imbalanced at all considering protoss and terran only have to make 1 more building to start 2/2 and 3/3 (twilight for toss, armory for terran). Different races are different. Terrans need one building (Armory 150/100/65s) for 2/2 and 3/3 upgrades, Protoss is similar - 150/100/50. Zergs need one "building" too for 3/3 upgrades - Hive for 250/150/100s, which also allows other things too, like broods and ultras. I love stuff like this, shows how easy it is to justify whatever the fuck you want to justify. Both the Terran and Protoss upgrade structures require 150/100, the major difference is required tech and the 15 additional seconds for the Armory as compared to the Council, then you jump to the Zerg building which is 100 more minerals, 50 more gas, and 35 more seconds compared to the armory, 50 if you compare it to the citadel. If you weren't so busy justifying and protecting the status quo, you might look at the Lair, which is also 150/100, and takes another 15 seconds longer than the Armor and *gasp* this would make all 3 races similar in the sense that 1 building allows 2/2 and 3/3 for T1 units. But it's ok, let's all keep changing the mantra: "different races are different"
you guys are missing infestation pit which is an additonal 100/100/50s
so basicly hive is 350/250/150s
|
On August 27 2013 09:53 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 09:03 Existor wrote:On August 27 2013 07:01 blade55555 wrote:
This change won't change zvt at all lol. Imo a good one would be allowing research of 3/3 after starting infestation pit. I don't see how it would be imbalanced at all considering protoss and terran only have to make 1 more building to start 2/2 and 3/3 (twilight for toss, armory for terran). Different races are different. Terrans need one building (Armory 150/100/65s) for 2/2 and 3/3 upgrades, Protoss is similar - 150/100/50. Zergs need one "building" too for 3/3 upgrades - Hive for 250/150/100s, which also allows other things too, like broods and ultras. Uh is that the best argument you can come up with? Just because god forbid they let zergs start 3/3 off of 1 building just like terran/protoss doesn't make them similar at all. Why is it fine for protoss and terran to do it but if we do it for zerg oh no the races are identical now? I mean here is the difference, terran makes an armory (150/100 iirc), protoss makes a twilight(150/150 right?) and bam they can get 2/2 3/3. Zerg has to make a lair 150/100 (we can even exclude this if you want), an infestation pit 100/100 AND go hive which is another 200/150 (or 200/100 can't remember which) before they can get 3-3. It still costs a zerg more money AND time to start 3/3 then the other races.
Yeah, and what makes it worse (and what makes the change a good thing, in my opinion) is the fact that zergs just cannot survive vs T with infestor ling bane. They would probably be a tad bit stronger in direct engagements but they would just get shredded by drops. What we are seeing is that way too often the zerg cannot survive while still going for the 3/3 upgrades and then we hear simple-minded people saying "wow, why didn't Zx go for 3-3 upgrades vs Tx, ofc he will die when Tx reaches 3-3!".
|
On August 27 2013 09:51 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 09:40 VayneAuthority wrote:
the day mech becomes viable is the day everyone plays terran unless bio is nerfed before then
they already dominate quite well even when everyone knows whats coming. Why is that? Mech being viable would not make Terran as a race stronger, it would merely give Terran more than one viable tech path.
Although technically it wouldn't make Terran stronger at any ONE POINT (if it was balanced or weaker than bio), the versatility could conceivably result in an increase in mind games and strategies from Terran, thus leading to Zergs and Protoss responding less correctly or promptly than they do now, resulting in higher Terran win percentages.
i.e. a race that could employ rock and paper is harder to win against than one that can only play paper. Both rock and paper are balanced, but now you can't always choose scissors. Overly-simplistic analogy.
|
Its not so much late game that is hard its more that mid game spirals out of control to the Zerg losing. That push that innovation and pretty much every terran is doing at the moment either the Zerg is greedy and crushes the first push and breaks even but the terran can't push out for a little bit longer or they trade evenly the first push and keep having to try to trade evenly for the rest of the game or they trade badly and lose. There is no middle ground at all. Ive seen games both at pro level and in my own play that shouldn't have been even remotely close that have ended up closer than they should have been and its entirely because of widow mines.
The simple fact of the matter is if they didn't hit air there wouldn't be any problem. The Zerg can micro the terran still has marines to rip apart the muta so its just a micro battle that is even.
|
Great change, a lot of TvZ trouble comes from the 3-3 mmm vs 2-2 bling/muta/ling. this change allows for a small amount of extra gas that normally would've been wasted on remaking overseers.
Also noobs like me won't have to worry about losing them to chasing stalkers when I forgot about my overseers XD
|
On August 27 2013 10:12 Sefer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 09:51 Prog455 wrote:On August 27 2013 09:40 VayneAuthority wrote:
the day mech becomes viable is the day everyone plays terran unless bio is nerfed before then
they already dominate quite well even when everyone knows whats coming. Why is that? Mech being viable would not make Terran as a race stronger, it would merely give Terran more than one viable tech path. Although technically it wouldn't make Terran stronger at any ONE POINT (if it was balanced or weaker than bio), the versatility could conceivably result in an increase in mind games and strategies from Terran, thus leading to Zergs and Protoss responding less correctly or promptly than they do now, resulting in higher Terran win percentages. i.e. a race that could employ rock and paper is harder to win against than one that can only play paper. Both rock and paper are balanced, but now you can't always choose scissors. Overly-simplistic analogy.
yea this. I already struggle enough in pvt as is in trying to know if they are 2 rax'ing, doing a widow mine drop, reaper FE, etc
If I had to account for mech too it makes them inherently stronger and the race is already pretty damn strong.
|
They should at least make the mines more visible. Make them neon pink or yellow or whatever color that will stick out. I hate this kind of sly balancing act in a game where by design your eye sight matters more than your reaction time. It is also for the benefit of the viewers. It's already hard to tell ghosts from group of marines/marauders. I hated the shimmering of cloaked units as well when this game came out and believe they should be truly invisible instead of simply untargettable without detectos. That probably is too late to fix, but surely widow mines can change its outfit so that players and viewers alike can see them better apart.
|
|
|
On August 27 2013 10:30 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 09:36 ZenithM wrote:
Probably a good patch, although I'm always worried to see Zerg buffed :p
"Queen's range +2" *shudders* The Queen range buff was very good for the game. No more random deaths for Zergs and viable anti air. If it came with an infestor nerf then 2012 would have been the golden age of SC2 imo.
Bolded parts are totally 100% true.
Ps. Hell, at second thought, even the middle statement is true. Zergs totally died randomly in the meta around the time Queens were buffed.
What? Hellion-contain was the issue and not "random deaths" ala. uber all-ins? Queen range buff was only applied to Queen-to-ground attacks and not anti-air? Lies, all Terran lies.
|
Wonder if it's feasible... morph 9 overseers ---> move command over widow mines right before engaging, try to hit terran army with them. Of course, he can unburrow --> reburrow but it would be sick.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
