David Kim posted the below on the battle.net forums. Looks like the overseer speed change is going through and they will continue to explore more options for making mech viable. Thoughts?
Edit: Thanks to Existor for the banner!
Hello everyone,
We thought it would be good to give another update on balance.
We still believe TvZ late game is tough for Zerg right now, but we'd like to approach the fix/fixes in steps than going with big jumps that might potentially break other things.
Therefore, we'll be looking to push out the Overseer speed buff change, continue testing additional changes on the balance test map as needed, and we'll see how the Overseer speed buff change affects the game before making another call.
Another popular area you guys bring up these days and that we agree with is making mech more viable. We will continue testing the mech upgrades change, or other changes if needed, in order to really figure out what the best direction for mech is.
Thank you and please look forward to a balance patch soon with this change:
Overseer The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade now increases Overseer movement speed from 1.88 to 3.375 (previously 1.88 to 2.75.)
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map? edit: This creates more issues than it solves.... well does it solve anything?
oh stop exaggerating the thing is still slower than a muta WITH the upgrade. It's very catchable just a bit harder now.
It will be 22% faster, so it's a good change. Also they will follow mutalisks a bit easier
all these changes based on one unit, the widow mine.
Here are the small list what also it can change:
• Overseers now can escape Stalker following (old Overseer at 2.75 against 2.95 Stalker) • Overseers now can escape Viking following (Viking is still 2.75 speed) • Overseers now can follow Mutalisks 22% easier and faster • Overseers also can follow more normally Roaches / Lings on creep • Stimmarines can run at 3.375 speed, so it means that they will less shoot at escaping Overseer because there are small stop-pauses when Marine shoots
Not a bad change, I guess we'll see how it pans out. I hope they do not proceed with other changes, though. I dislike when they meddle with the game like this. Especially in response to "community feedback". Chill at your desk for 3 months, DK!
A change that doesnt hurt anybody but it wont fix tvz because the problem is not "late" game its the time were Zerg is trying to get hive and Terran bio fights with 3/3 vs muta/ling. That timing that Bomber used in every game at WCS is a problem.
Kind of surprised that there are neither the MSC or Tanks mentioned. The Upgrades are not the main problem of Mech its that the SiegTank sucks and you have an absolute imobile army that cant even win streight up fight against the right unit composition.
Fine change, though it would be hilarious if some terran would start trying to catch overseer, thinking it is slower than stimmed marines and ran right into 2 banelings :D.
why do they want to change terran upgrades? making mech viable is possible with buffing tanks (something that makes them good im smaller bumbers but worse in bigger numbers, not the other way round like now) how does an oversser speedbuff help zergs lategame? never ever have i seen a zerg lose because the detection was too slow :/
I agree with their approach of one step at a time. I like the idea of making mech viable, it is just a question of getting that done without breaking the entire game. They should focus on making the transition from hellions to battle hellions more viable without the use of a tech lab or armory. Anything to make that transition more natural in a standard build.
And for everyone who is going to say “just buff tanks”. I feel safe is saying that likely tried that and it just made marine/tank more viable, with mines for extra AOE awesome.
I don't mind the overseer buff. But its really nothing at all.
The mech buff they had in mind wasn't ideal, but it was something. Something that could possibly have terran players experiment with different builds besides MMM. But I guess making the game interesting isn't a priority, lets just make every terran player go through the exact same motions every game like they have for months now.
I loved watching terran games in WoL, even when they were getting raped by BL/infestor. I root against terran players in HOTS, every game is just MMM spam.
On August 27 2013 04:26 graNite wrote: why do they want to change terran upgrades? making mech viable is possible with buffing tanks (something that makes them good im smaller bumbers but worse in bigger numbers, not the other way round like now) how does an oversser speedbuff help zergs lategame? never ever have i seen a zerg lose because the detection was too slow :/
Actually overseer's were working as speedbump to whole zerg army (you do not want to run over random couple of mines, eh :D). Now the speedbump are banelings and that is more acceptable IMO. Plus overseers when mutas were flying away would be lagging behind and almost always get killed by chasing marines. Now that should not happen. Also, good luck thinking of buff that would make siege tanks good in small numbers but would not make 'em ridiculous in critical mass (that's how SC2 works, unfortunately).
As a Zerg I'd love something to deal with 4M in a straight-up fight, but maybe this change will make it easier to harass more safely. I'm happy with it.
On August 27 2013 04:26 graNite wrote: why do they want to change terran upgrades? making mech viable is possible with buffing tanks (something that makes them good im smaller bumbers but worse in bigger numbers, not the other way round like now) how does an oversser speedbuff help zergs lategame? never ever have i seen a zerg lose because the detection was too slow :/
It is not because it is to slow, in a sense that you need to wait for it. It is more the fact that after you are in a big fight you will have to 90% of the time have to make more. Costing the zerg more time and to make more overloards. It is a small step for ZvT but its a step forward.
Also it would be better for when they are with mutas, trying to get the widow mines.
very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map? edit: This creates more issues than it solves.... well does it solve anything?
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map?
It's not like zerg REALLY-REALLY needs scouting when he can get both overlord speed and lair. Also, overseers will stop dying to marines once they get speed.
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map?
It's not like zerg REALLY-REALLY needs scouting when he can get both overlord speed and lair.
Much like observer speed, I don’t think this is really a must have buff, but more of a thing that makes it easier to get the information you need during the late game.
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map? edit: This creates more issues than it solves.... well does it solve anything?
oh stop exaggerating the thing is still slower than a muta WITH the upgrade. It's very catchable just a bit harder now.
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map? edit: This creates more issues than it solves.... well does it solve anything?
oh stop exaggerating the thing is still slower than a muta WITH the upgrade. It's very catchable just a bit harder now.
It will be 22% faster, so it's a good change. Also they will follow mutalisks a bit easier
LOL what? basically david kim said O.K. there is a TvZ late game problem but we dont know how to balance it, here have some overseer speed. If you fking dont know how to balance it you should have never said there was a TvZ late game probelm because now you make yourself look like a dumb ass.
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map? edit: This creates more issues than it solves.... well does it solve anything?
oh stop exaggerating the thing is still slower than a muta WITH the upgrade. It's very catchable just a bit harder now.
It will be 22% faster, so it's a good change. Also they will follow mutalisks a bit easier
all these changes based on one unit, the widow mine.
On August 27 2013 04:43 EleanorRIgby wrote: what about the mech upgrades???
The post from DK says they are still testing solutions to Mech. Maybe the upgrades are not enough and they want to look at something else before dropping a patch on that issue.
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map? edit: This creates more issues than it solves.... well does it solve anything?
oh stop exaggerating the thing is still slower than a muta WITH the upgrade. It's very catchable just a bit harder now.
It will be 22% faster, so it's a good change. Also they will follow mutalisks a bit easier
oh I'm not complaining I think it's a nice change too. I was just putting it into perspective as far as it being "uncatchable" xD
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map?
It's not like zerg REALLY-REALLY needs scouting when he can get both overlord speed and lair.
Much like observer speed, I don’t think this is really a must have buff, but more of a thing that makes it easier to get the information you need during the late game.
if you know anything about zvt, it is a must have buff. Notice how well a player like scarlett preserves her mutas in fights, the overseers always trail behind and die. Overseers die way too often in other scenarios as well.
Needed changes: 3/3 for zerg unlocked at lair, widow mines take priority to attacking units or w/e it is. Still wont be balanced but it will be good enough to let sit long enough to see if zergs can develop the micro required to stop the afk mines ending every game
Good change. Right now, losing overseers is sort of inevitable in ZvT because they lag behind when you retreat--and if you leave them behind while harassing you get stomped with Mines. This will make it a lot easier to harass without dying to mines, and to retreat without losing an overseer. Save a couple of overseers, and you have the gas to start Hive earlier than otherwise.
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map? edit: This creates more issues than it solves.... well does it solve anything?
oh stop exaggerating the thing is still slower than a muta WITH the upgrade. It's very catchable just a bit harder now.
It will be 22% faster, so it's a good change. Also they will follow mutalisks a bit easier
all these changes based on one unit, the widow mine.
Here are the small list what also it can change:
• Overseers now can escape Stalker following (old Overseer at 2.75 against 2.95 Stalker) • Overseers now can escape Viking following (Viking is still 2.75 speed) • Overseers now can follow Mutalisks 22% easier and faster • Overseers also can follow more normally Roaches / Lings on creep • Stimmarines can run at 3.375 speed, so it means that they will less shoot at escaping Overseer because there are small stop-pauses when Marine shoots
On August 27 2013 04:21 USvBleakill wrote: The Upgrades are not the main problem of Mech its that the SiegTank sucks and you have an absolute imobile army that cant even win streight up fight against the right unit composition.
You should never be able to win a straight up fight versus the right unit composition. That is, in fact, the idea behind having the "right" unit composition. You should be able to win a straight up fight against a unit composition that is not right.
On August 27 2013 04:45 Like a Boss wrote: LOL what? basically david kim said O.K. there is a TvZ late game problem but we dont know how to balance it, here have some overseer speed. If you fking dont know how to balance it you should have never said there was a TvZ late game probelm because now you make yourself look like a dumb ass.
You're making yourself look like the dumbass.
One of the problems with ZvT late game is that zerg never has the gas available at any given time to tech up to a late game army. A contributing factor to this problem is dying overseers. With the abundance of widow mines in the matchup, a zerg is required to create and maintain 2~3 overseers. Imagine always having 3 overseers with your army, that's 150 gas right off the bat after lair. Now, any time you fight the terran army, you lose all 3 and are required to remake them. That's 150 gas every x seconds, which is especially a problem during the "parade push" that terrans are ever so fond of. Losing and remaking 3 overseers every minute is very hard gas starve, largely attributed to the fact that overseers can't actually get away from marines/mines before being killed in an engagement.
The speed buff comes later on for Zerg, so this hardly effects scouting information at all. If a Zerg has overlord speed, then they already know what their opponent is doing, even without the 22% speed boost to the overseer. This change is 100% meant for ZvT, and I believe that's the only matchup it's going to affect.
meh. like recent top level games were decided by overseer being able to keep up with mutas?
it is theoretically making mutas-harrass a bit more viable in ZvT so that's theoretically good for zerg but meh, things will be decided before upgraded pneumatics kick in...
the big difference is probably mid/late-game scouting (in every match-up) but has anyone ever said TvZ is broken because Z lacks mid/late-game scouting...
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map? edit: This creates more issues than it solves.... well does it solve anything?
oh stop exaggerating the thing is still slower than a muta WITH the upgrade. It's very catchable just a bit harder now.
It will be 22% faster, so it's a good change. Also they will follow mutalisks a bit easier
oh I'm not complaining I think it's a nice change too. I was just putting it into perspective as far as it being "uncatchable" xD
tell me one terran unit that shoots air, that is fast enough to catch an overseer with this speedupgrade. I´m curious! And it´s not that I think this breaks the game now. It´s just a totally stupid move, because it won´t solve the actual problem of widow mines being too strong vs zerg. It might just create other problems in the future and I´m not only talking about TvZ here. Just a totally stupid change. It shows pretty much how clueless David Kim is. I hope his days as the head of the balance team are numbered, the job is way too much for him.
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map? edit: This creates more issues than it solves.... well does it solve anything?
oh stop exaggerating the thing is still slower than a muta WITH the upgrade. It's very catchable just a bit harder now.
It will be 22% faster, so it's a good change. Also they will follow mutalisks a bit easier
oh I'm not complaining I think it's a nice change too. I was just putting it into perspective as far as it being "uncatchable" xD
tell me one terran unit that shoots air, that is fast enough to catch an overseer with this speedupgrade. I´m curious! And it´s not that I think this breaks the game now. It´s just a totally stupid move, because it won´t solve the actual problem of widow mines being too strong vs zerg. It might just create other problems in the future and I´m not only talking about TvZ here. Just a totally stupid change. It shows pretty much how clueless David Kim is. I hope his days as the head of the balance team are numbered, the job is way too much for him.
I think you might be over reacting a bit. This is the overseer after all, not some crazy unit that has super powers. It just lets people see widow mines and scout better. Scouting is good and everyone should have lots of it.
Late game isn't bad (as long as the zerg is using late game units). It's the transition from mid game to late game that zergs are getting slaughtered in
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map? edit: This creates more issues than it solves.... well does it solve anything?
oh stop exaggerating the thing is still slower than a muta WITH the upgrade. It's very catchable just a bit harder now.
It will be 22% faster, so it's a good change. Also they will follow mutalisks a bit easier
oh I'm not complaining I think it's a nice change too. I was just putting it into perspective as far as it being "uncatchable" xD
tell me one terran unit that shoots air, that is fast enough to catch an overseer with this speedupgrade. I´m curious! And it´s not that I think this breaks the game now. It´s just a totally stupid move, because it won´t solve the actual problem of widow mines being too strong vs zerg. It might just create other problems in the future and I´m not only talking about TvZ here. Just a totally stupid change. It shows pretty much how clueless David Kim is. I hope his days as the head of the balance team are numbered, the job is way too much for him.
I think Protoss being easier to scout is a good thing as a whole, but you're blowing things out of perspective, anything you need to scout in a protoss base you do it with Overlords before lair tech. I'm talking all-ins and tech routes.
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map? edit: This creates more issues than it solves.... well does it solve anything?
oh stop exaggerating the thing is still slower than a muta WITH the upgrade. It's very catchable just a bit harder now.
It will be 22% faster, so it's a good change. Also they will follow mutalisks a bit easier
oh I'm not complaining I think it's a nice change too. I was just putting it into perspective as far as it being "uncatchable" xD
tell me one terran unit that shoots air, that is fast enough to catch an overseer with this speedupgrade. I´m curious! And it´s not that I think this breaks the game now. It´s just a totally stupid move, because it won´t solve the actual problem of widow mines being too strong vs zerg. It might just create other problems in the future and I´m not only talking about TvZ here. Just a totally stupid change. It shows pretty much how clueless David Kim is. I hope his days as the head of the balance team are numbered, the job is way too much for him.
Should i remind you what happened when David Kim was actually nerfing stuff? Now they do not want to nerf, and try to buff. Also, they are supposed to never ever be catched by marines now, that is intended.
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map? edit: This creates more issues than it solves.... well does it solve anything?
oh stop exaggerating the thing is still slower than a muta WITH the upgrade. It's very catchable just a bit harder now.
It will be 22% faster, so it's a good change. Also they will follow mutalisks a bit easier
oh I'm not complaining I think it's a nice change too. I was just putting it into perspective as far as it being "uncatchable" xD
It shows pretty much how clueless David Kim is. I hope his days as the head of the balance team are numbered, the job is way too much for him.
So much hate on this guy. But he give us a game which is relatively balance (100% is impossible), and that's really difficult. You must watch SotG interview of Kim, and you will see he have more knowledge on balance (and patch consequence) than you think.
Another head of the balance team would be hated after only 2 weeks, players needs a punching ball.
On August 27 2013 04:58 sunless wrote: meh. like recent top level games were decided by overseer being able to keep up with mutas?
it is theoretically making mutas-harrass a bit more viable in ZvT so that's theoretically good for zerg but meh, things will be decided before upgraded pneumatics kick in...
the big difference is probably mid/late-game scouting (in every match-up) but has anyone ever said TvZ is broken because Z lacks mid/late-game scouting...
Blizzard, your ways are mysterious...
Actually, it has very little to do with scouting, and a lot to do with mines. Terrans almost exclusively play the same way, it's not as if there is some tech that is going unscouted causing Zergs to love in the mid-late game. It has to do with mines not because they are necessarily imbalanced, but because they put a heavy micro tax on the zerg, and not so much on the terran. Coupled with the Medivac speed boost and drilling claws, terran are able to play a very aggressive, siege-like style with heavy drops and tons of marines (more so than before because tanks were more expensive and Medivacs weren't retained as much. With decent mine hits Terran can play extremely cost efficient with an extremely cheap army that does some of the best dps of any unit composition.
One TINY factor to this is that since mines are invisible (or rather, untargettable) when burrowed Zerg needs overseers, but with their current speed they almost always die every engagement. Adding morphing overseers to the many tasks Zerg now has to deal with may seem irrelevant, but overseers aren't cheap, and there is a huge opportunity cost to not having them. Something this small may be just big enough to make a difference to help out Zergs during the Terran's relentless assault and help even out the stats.
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map? edit: This creates more issues than it solves.... well does it solve anything?
oh stop exaggerating the thing is still slower than a muta WITH the upgrade. It's very catchable just a bit harder now.
It will be 22% faster, so it's a good change. Also they will follow mutalisks a bit easier
oh I'm not complaining I think it's a nice change too. I was just putting it into perspective as far as it being "uncatchable" xD
It shows pretty much how clueless David Kim is. I hope his days as the head of the balance team are numbered, the job is way too much for him.
So much hate on this guy. But he give us a game which is relatively balance (100% is impossible), and that's really difficult. You must watch SotG interview of Kim, and you will see he have more knowledge on balance (and patch consequence) than you think.
Another head of the balance team would be hated after only 2 weeks, players needs a punching ball.
I agree with you in that everyone will just hate whoever is the head of the balance team, and that David Kim is probably much better than people give him credit for, but I disagree that his appearances on SOTG demonstrate this. I have always thought that he dodged questions or gave incorrect or less insightful solutions to problems than did Incontrol or Tyler.
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map? edit: This creates more issues than it solves.... well does it solve anything?
oh stop exaggerating the thing is still slower than a muta WITH the upgrade. It's very catchable just a bit harder now.
It will be 22% faster, so it's a good change. Also they will follow mutalisks a bit easier
all these changes based on one unit, the widow mine.
Here are the small list what also it can change:
• Overseers now can escape Stalker following (old Overseer at 2.75 against 2.95 Stalker) • Overseers now can escape Viking following (Viking is still 2.75 speed) • Overseers now can follow Mutalisks 22% easier and faster • Overseers also can follow more normally Roaches / Lings on creep • Stimmarines can run at 3.375 speed, so it means that they will less shoot at escaping Overseer because there are small stop-pauses when Marine shoots
I think this should be posted in OP
Here are the small list what also it can change:
• Overseers now can escape Stalker following (old Overseer at 2.75 against 2.95 Stalker) • Overseers now can escape Viking following (Viking is still 2.75 speed) • Overseers now can follow Mutalisks 22% easier and faster • Overseers also can follow more normally Roaches / Lings on creep • Stimmarines can run at 3.375 speed, so it means that they will less shoot at escaping Overseer because there are small stop-pauses when Marine shoots
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map? edit: This creates more issues than it solves.... well does it solve anything?
Terran talking about uncatchable stuff is quite ironic don't you think?
On August 27 2013 04:35 TeeTS wrote: very stupid change. makes the overseer basically uncatchable with the upgrade, which will give zerg even easier scouting options, especially against protoss (against terran there is nothing to scout, since there is only one composition to go for). Why not give zerg free vision over the map? edit: This creates more issues than it solves.... well does it solve anything?
Terran talking about uncatchable stuff is quite ironic don't you think?
Stim Marines vs speed banes.... Marines get picked up by medi and boosts away... That feeling.
On August 27 2013 05:04 Zenbrez wrote: Late game isn't bad (as long as the zerg is using late game units). It's the transition from mid game to late game that zergs are getting slaughtered in
it actually is, zerg is badly outmatched in pretty much every part of the game unless they catch and punish terran being greedy
On August 27 2013 05:04 Zenbrez wrote: Late game isn't bad (as long as the zerg is using late game units). It's the transition from mid game to late game that zergs are getting slaughtered in
it actually is, zerg is badly outmatched in pretty much every part of the game unless they catch and punish terran being greedy
On August 27 2013 05:04 Zenbrez wrote: Late game isn't bad (as long as the zerg is using late game units). It's the transition from mid game to late game that zergs are getting slaughtered in
it actually is, zerg is badly outmatched in pretty much every part of the game unless they catch and punish terran being greedy
Isn't that every match up for every race? You are outmatched if you don't catch your opponent being greedy and punish them for it in some way.
On August 27 2013 05:04 Zenbrez wrote: Late game isn't bad (as long as the zerg is using late game units). It's the transition from mid game to late game that zergs are getting slaughtered in
it actually is, zerg is badly outmatched in pretty much every part of the game unless they catch and punish terran being greedy
Even though IdrA has bias, he is kinda... right?
Yeah, but you could say that about ZvZ too. Or PvP. Greed is a good way to outmatch your opponent.
Not that I think zerg has an easy time against widow mines. They are super mean and very powerful.
On August 27 2013 05:11 Sefer wrote: One TINY factor to this is that since mines are invisible (or rather, untargettable) when burrowed Zerg needs overseers, but with their current speed they almost always die every engagement. Adding morphing overseers to the many tasks Zerg now has to deal with may seem irrelevant, but overseers aren't cheap, and there is a huge opportunity cost to not having them. Something this small may be just big enough to make a difference to help out Zergs during the Terran's relentless assault and help even out the stats.
Maybe it will be just enough, but it seems both a very indirect way of addressing mid-game and mid/late game transition TvZ and also a somewhat match-up unspecific change. But sure saving the money and the morphing action and the possible time without detection cannot hurt but there are other tiny changes that would have dealt more directly with the cost-efficiency of the 4M army against muta-ling-banes. Motivations and effects would have been easier to understand and foresee.
On August 27 2013 05:04 Zenbrez wrote: Late game isn't bad (as long as the zerg is using late game units). It's the transition from mid game to late game that zergs are getting slaughtered in
it actually is, zerg is badly outmatched in pretty much every part of the game unless they catch and punish terran being greedy
Isn't that every match up for every race? You are outmatched if you don't catch your opponent being greedy and punish them for it in some way.
Well, point is that you cannot really counter it with your own greed i think.
On August 27 2013 05:32 Liquid`Snute wrote: Nice small change that helps with dealing with the 3CC marine marauder medivac mine train and muta harass great stuff
DK can now make a mark on patch: Approved by Pro Zerg.
On August 27 2013 04:30 Bagi wrote: I don't mind the overseer buff. But its really nothing at all.
The mech buff they had in mind wasn't ideal, but it was something. Something that could possibly have terran players experiment with different builds besides MMM. But I guess making the game interesting isn't a priority, lets just make every terran player go through the exact same motions every game like they have for months now.
I loved watching terran games in WoL, even when they were getting raped by BL/infestor. I root against terran players in HOTS, every game is just MMM spam.
It literally says in the first first post of the thread you just posted in
"Another popular area you guys bring up these days and that we agree with is making mech more viable. We will continue testing the mech upgrades change, or other changes if needed, in order to really figure out what the best direction for mech is."
I understand blizzard bashing from time to time, but this was just dumb.
On August 27 2013 04:30 Bagi wrote: I don't mind the overseer buff. But its really nothing at all.
The mech buff they had in mind wasn't ideal, but it was something. Something that could possibly have terran players experiment with different builds besides MMM. But I guess making the game interesting isn't a priority, lets just make every terran player go through the exact same motions every game like they have for months now.
I loved watching terran games in WoL, even when they were getting raped by BL/infestor. I root against terran players in HOTS, every game is just MMM spam.
It literally says in the first first post of the thread you just posted in
"Another popular area you guys bring up these days and that we agree with is making mech more viable. We will continue testing the mech upgrades change, or other changes if needed, in order to really figure out what the best direction for mech is."
I understand blizzard bashing from time to time, but this was just dumb.
Yeah, I am sure Blizzard wants to check stuff before they break the game. Doing everything at once is normally a bad idea.
i think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions, the new overseer buff will allow them to go ahead of army and scout for mines and be able to keep up with mutas. and you can scout the entire enemy with this new speed as well.
Nice change since overseers just got killed everytime you'd try to run away from a terran. But I still think that zerg is a bit too fragile and I am clueless how to fix. Maybe just down to maps.
I understand it with the mines but it feels a little strange to buff the scouting of the race that already has the most versatility in terms of scouting.
On August 27 2013 05:53 EleanorRIgby wrote: i think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions, the new overseer buff will allow them to go ahead of army and scout for mines and be able to keep up with mutas. and you can scout the entire enemy with this new speed as well.
Sounds sweet and useful, while not being broken. Scouting is good. Information is good.
I thought it is going to be some changes to Widow mines instead..
Like the cost?? Or maybe if it target ground, its aoe is limited to ground AOE, not total AOE...
1 shot from widow mine is like, 3-4 siege tank shot? Without need upgrade, with survial option in the form of burrow.. And cost so much cheaper and easier to use.
If reduce the terran widow mine count by increasing the cost, it made the terran composition less cost-efficient maybe, giving zerg better breathing space, better money trade during fight.
The difference between WOL & HOTS TvZ is Widow mine, right? There is not much other changes..
On August 27 2013 06:03 XiaoJoyce- wrote: I thought it is going to be some changes to Widow mines instead..
Like the cost?? Or maybe if it target ground, its aoe is limited to ground AOE, not total AOE...
1 shot from widow mine is like, 3-4 siege tank shot? Without need upgrade, with survial option in the form of burrow.. And cost so much cheaper and easier to use.
If reduce the terran widow mine count by increasing the cost, it made the terran composition less cost-efficient maybe, giving zerg better breathing space, better money trade during fight.
The difference between WOL & HOTS TvZ is Widow mine, right? There is not much other changes..
Mostly Infestors with instant fungal and extra damage to armoured and then throwing down mass infested terrans. The usual Zerg composition in WoL was ling infestor into broodlord infestor and the widow mine isn't that strong against infestors.
On August 27 2013 06:03 XiaoJoyce- wrote: The difference between WOL & HOTS TvZ is Widow mine, right? There is not much other changes..
Well, medivac speed boost (and buff to mutalisk speed because of it's existence) + fungal change (i won't call it nerf for a reason) makes infestors kinda support units, while making sure zerg has to either invest alot into static defense or go muta tech. Then there is ultralisk change, that makes it simply good, but that's iirelevant. And then there is widow mine (goddamn it, remember shredder?) and muta regen because of it's existence. So medivacs + general DPS powah of MMM (no mines) ensures that muta ling bane into infestor ultra into infestor ultra brood lord is go-to and then there is widow mine and rally push.
On August 27 2013 05:53 EleanorRIgby wrote: i think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions, the new overseer buff will allow them to go ahead of army and scout for mines and be able to keep up with mutas. and you can scout the entire enemy with this new speed as well.
Sounds sweet and useful, while not being broken. Scouting is good. Information is good.
Overseer is now the fastest zerg unit (only lings are faster i think), this means overseer will killed as first unit by widow mines. And without overseers you wont win vs terran.
On August 27 2013 05:53 EleanorRIgby wrote: i think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions, the new overseer buff will allow them to go ahead of army and scout for mines and be able to keep up with mutas. and you can scout the entire enemy with this new speed as well.
Sounds sweet and useful, while not being broken. Scouting is good. Information is good.
Another benefit is that currently, its pretty much a given that any time Z tries to retreat from an engagement in ZvT, their overseers will lag behind and get picked off. Losing even a few overseers adds up to a decent amount of gas...that could otherwise be spent teching to hive and getting to upgrades. The dreaded 3/3 bio timing is as deadly as it is in part because Z has a hard time finding the spare gas to get to hive in a timely fashion. This will alleviate that specific scenario.
On August 27 2013 05:53 EleanorRIgby wrote: i think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions, the new overseer buff will allow them to go ahead of army and scout for mines and be able to keep up with mutas. and you can scout the entire enemy with this new speed as well.
Sounds sweet and useful, while not being broken. Scouting is good. Information is good.
Overseer is now the fastest zerg unit (only lings are faster i think), this means overseer will killed as first unit by widow mines. And without overseers you wont win vs terran.
Mutas are still faster than overseers, and the fact that overseers can't keep up with them limits Zerg's ability to harass.
On August 27 2013 05:53 EleanorRIgby wrote: i think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions, the new overseer buff will allow them to go ahead of army and scout for mines and be able to keep up with mutas. and you can scout the entire enemy with this new speed as well.
Sounds sweet and useful, while not being broken. Scouting is good. Information is good.
Overseer is now the fastest zerg unit (only lings are faster i think), this means overseer will killed as first unit by widow mines. And without overseers you wont win vs terran.
On August 27 2013 05:53 EleanorRIgby wrote: i think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions, the new overseer buff will allow them to go ahead of army and scout for mines and be able to keep up with mutas. and you can scout the entire enemy with this new speed as well.
Sounds sweet and useful, while not being broken. Scouting is good. Information is good.
Overseer is now the fastest zerg unit (only lings are faster i think), this means overseer will killed as first unit by widow mines. And without overseers you wont win vs terran.
Not so fast, overseers are still slower than speed banes maybe even off-creep. And ofc, they will still lag behind mutas.
On August 27 2013 05:53 EleanorRIgby wrote: i think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions, the new overseer buff will allow them to go ahead of army and scout for mines and be able to keep up with mutas. and you can scout the entire enemy with this new speed as well.
Sounds sweet and useful, while not being broken. Scouting is good. Information is good.
Overseer is now the fastest zerg unit (only lings are faster i think), this means overseer will killed as first unit by widow mines. And without overseers you wont win vs terran.
Not so fast, overseers are still slower than speed banes maybe even off-creep. And ofc, they will still lag behind mutas.
On August 27 2013 05:53 EleanorRIgby wrote: i think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions, the new overseer buff will allow them to go ahead of army and scout for mines and be able to keep up with mutas. and you can scout the entire enemy with this new speed as well.
Sounds sweet and useful, while not being broken. Scouting is good. Information is good.
Overseer is now the fastest zerg unit (only lings are faster i think), this means overseer will killed as first unit by widow mines. And without overseers you wont win vs terran.
So it's a nerf ?
ling speed, bane speed, hydra speed, roach speed, overlord/overseer speed. The devs were not really inspired with the Z upgrades D:
On August 27 2013 05:04 Zenbrez wrote: Late game isn't bad (as long as the zerg is using late game units). It's the transition from mid game to late game that zergs are getting slaughtered in
it actually is, zerg is badly outmatched in pretty much every part of the game unless they catch and punish terran being greedy
Isn't that every match up for every race? You are outmatched if you don't catch your opponent being greedy and punish them for it in some way.
Not by any means, Protoss currently proceeds to endgame on equal or worse economy in PvT and PvZ.
This is no issue because units like the HT and Colossus have huge cost-efficiency vs bio in PvT and Void Ray, Carrier, Colossus/HT deathballs are basically unstoppable.
While it's reasonable to say being ahead is a good place to be for all races, being behind as Zerg right now is basically unwinnable in all 3 MU.
On August 27 2013 05:53 EleanorRIgby wrote: i think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions, the new overseer buff will allow them to go ahead of army and scout for mines and be able to keep up with mutas. and you can scout the entire enemy with this new speed as well.
Sounds sweet and useful, while not being broken. Scouting is good. Information is good.
Another benefit is that currently, its pretty much a given that any time Z tries to retreat from an engagement in ZvT, their overseers will lag behind and get picked off. Losing even a few overseers adds up to a decent amount of gas...that could otherwise be spent teching to hive and getting to upgrades. The dreaded 3/3 bio timing is as deadly as it is in part because Z has a hard time finding the spare gas to get to hive in a timely fashion. This will alleviate that specific scenario.
I like to call that the WoL Medivac problem. When terran would run away from protoss and the stalkers would just prance behind them, popping the medivacs with well timed shots. It was a little to harsh.
Units should not be 'useless'; the fun is using units. I'm glad that mech will be more useful - as to how powerful, that's not as much of interest so long as it is more useful.
I hope that there are more ways of playing, that's all.
I wish everything would become slower instead of faster, but thats because I want Siege tanks to fire atleast 3 shots before they roll over and die instead of 2. Anyway will make control for the Zerg easier, because they can a-move around the map not having to fear something burrowed, their map control will be fearsome again. In the end this solidifies Mines in their role as the Siege Tank for Bio, while Mines doing ground control will be nearly useless against Zerg. Will be interesting to see how this turns out, but it basically forces Terran even more into the 4m rally style. But the new maps will do more for TvZ then this change imo.
On August 27 2013 06:38 FeyFey wrote: I wish everything would become slower instead of faster, but thats because I want Siege tanks to fire atleast 3 shots before they roll over and die instead of 2. Anyway will make control for the Zerg easier, because they can a-move around the map not having to fear something burrowed, their map control will be fearsome again. In the end this solidifies Mines in their role as the Siege Tank for Bio, while Mines doing ground control will be nearly useless against Zerg. Will be interesting to see how this turns out, but it basically forces Terran even more into the 4m rally style. But the new maps will do more for TvZ then this change imo.
Wow... All that from just a +1 move speed to overseer? Wowz.. One can only imagine what would of happened if something drastic happened, like combining mech and air upgrades.
I believe the match is quite balanced atm. When the zergs start to micro like hell things like mmm push would be much easier to stop.
Marines splitting terrans are practicing since wol days. Banes zerglings splitting zerg practice only since HOTS came out. I think Scarlett in WCS Finals 2 showed quite well how it could be done. Just give zerg some time and the match will become more balanced.
Overlordspeed doesn't change much. Just a small nice buff
While it's reasonable to say being ahead is a good place to be for all races, being behind as Zerg right now is basically unwinnable in all 3 MU.
No it isn't. Zerg can fall absolutely come back in ZvP using swarm hosts, and in ZvT a good engagement with great baneling hits can quickly get Z back into the game as well.
They may be able to balance TvZ on a pure win percentage basis but I think we're stuck with this composition for the entirety of HotS. The time to make mech and other compositions viable is during beta tests, where they can get away with breaking balance to try new things. I felt they were just way too timid in making sweeping changes and only wanted to change WoL's balance by a little.
Mech is unlikely to become viable by just fudging numbers a little bit here and there.
This change won't change zvt at all lol. Imo a good one would be allowing research of 3/3 after starting infestation pit. I don't see how it would be imbalanced at all considering protoss and terran only have to make 1 more building to start 2/2 and 3/3 (twilight for toss, armory for terran).
On August 27 2013 07:01 blade55555 wrote: This change won't change zvt at all lol. Imo a good one would be allowing research of 3/3 after starting infestation pit. I don't see how it would be imbalanced at all considering protoss and terran only have to make 1 more building to start 2/2 and 3/3 (twilight for toss, armory for terran).
While it's reasonable to say being ahead is a good place to be for all races, being behind as Zerg right now is basically unwinnable in all 3 MU.
No it isn't. Zerg can fall absolutely come back in ZvP using swarm hosts, and in ZvT a good engagement with great baneling hits can quickly get Z back into the game as well.
No amount of SH is going to stop a protoss army with 4+ colossi from charging forward and destroying his Zerg opponent, especially unsupported SH. While the SH is relatively effective in the ZvP MU, it still doesn't allow Zerg to turtle up and play from behind (2 base vs 3, not 3 vs 3, that would be considered even by any reasonable standard).
As far as your baneling comment, I see lots of really good baneling hits in pretty much every ZvT above diamond league. Again, the Zerg is ahead on bases in these scenarios and a large portion of them lose the game anyway. The very nature of rolling banelings into marines is inefficient, sorry to say. I don't see how you think Zerg is even capable of pulling off ZvT from behind on bases when current GSL pros are losing games from being ahead on bases...
If you want to argue that Zerg SHOULDN'T be able to play from behind, I guess that is debatable, but acting like they can in the current game is just willfully ignorant.
I play zerg and even I think it might be a little too fast, but it would make getting past missile turret walls slightly easier. I guess ill play with the patch before I decide if its op or not
I like the change.It is a unit that doesn't affect a battle directly but has more of an utility role. And also lol at the zergs who want widow mines nerfed.If widow mines get nerfed then terran has to micro everything for once again 50 times better than the zerg.Maybe zerg players should micro for once in their lives.Balance is fine
TBH thought this was addressed and executed quite a while ago.. Why the conversation/thread this late now.. ?
Nevertheless - I like the change a lot.. ofc the problem is if this gets a huge side-effect in ZvP for Zerg being able to dart in, snipe Obs and dart-out, or even better - make DTs practically useless late-game..
Still think that if anything - Widow-Mine needs to go under some changes TBH though.. Both for the sake of ZvT, as well as TvP
And ofcourse:
3.75 is the movement speed of Oracle.. It's fast, but not Super-fast, not like the Hellion or Phoenix or Speedling for example..
It's funny how people are balance whining, even though Blizzard only went through with the most conservative change possible
It's only an upgrade, and it WILL help against 4M, because it's much easier to run away from stimmed marines/jump out of WM range.
As they stated earlier, the increased survivability of overseers means zergs aren't constantly re-morphing them as they are inevitably sniped when the faster muta flock veers away
I'm generally no fan of Zerg but this speed buff I feel was totally needed (if not something else). I like that they're taking the incremental approach here. Blizzard balance changes haven't always felt all that smart every time but I think this was the right way to go with the current state of ZvT (true top tier Terrans... are just so ridiculously good at that matchup. honestly every single Zerg would really really struggle to beat any of them in like a bo7 these days, that's a fact).
The most interesting thing for me is how this will affect ZvP... scouting potential definitely increases, early game, and later. Since overseers will be easier to keep alive Zerg will retain them more, spend a few less resources, and be able to pick off observers easier...
still need zerg 3/3 upgrades available on lair tech (or maybe require infestation pit). that's the only thing I could see having a real effect right now without making drastic changes.
On August 27 2013 08:35 IcED Bk wrote: I don't know about this, zerg DOES NOT need the scouting ability. Protoss now is going to have a hard time trying to kill off scouts.
definitely true but doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be game-breaking or anything at all. time to adapt and see how things play out. yeah it's also interesting that this should help a decent bit against DT harass.
On August 27 2013 08:35 IcED Bk wrote: I don't know about this, zerg DOES NOT need the scouting ability. Protoss now is going to have a hard time trying to kill off scouts.
Just...no. Zerg rarely researches overlord speed against protoss let alone early enough to impact the scouting of Protoss' first tech choice.
On August 27 2013 08:35 IcED Bk wrote: I don't know about this, zerg DOES NOT need the scouting ability. Protoss now is going to have a hard time trying to kill off scouts.
Not really. It isn't like the Zerg is going to quickly tech to lair and get the speed upgrade for the quicker scouting early on (when it matters most) and in the later stages Protoss usually has phoenixes or blink stalkers which can easily kill these.
Hell, even if the zerg did rush these, a lot of protoss players have caught on to the strength of stargate tech in HotS so they'd still have a few phoenixes out in time.
Someone said this before but it is something I really feel is worth mentioning again: EMP shells upgrade for siege tanks in techlab. Gives tanks a +X damage bonus (while sieged) against shields, say 10 damage. Immortal will still be a counter but atleast it won't shut them down completely.
OT. I'm glad they didn't change the widowmines. As a zerg I think it's fun to micro against them and I like (to a certain degree) to be punished for sloppy micro. I wish swarmhost was more effective against terran bio so I could clean up big minefields with locusts though.
On August 27 2013 07:01 blade55555 wrote: This change won't change zvt at all lol. Imo a good one would be allowing research of 3/3 after starting infestation pit. I don't see how it would be imbalanced at all considering protoss and terran only have to make 1 more building to start 2/2 and 3/3 (twilight for toss, armory for terran).
Different races are different. Terrans need one building (Armory 150/100/65s) for 2/2 and 3/3 upgrades, Protoss is similar - 150/100/50. Zergs need one "building" too for 3/3 upgrades - Hive for 250/150/100s, which also allows other things too, like broods and ultras.
On August 27 2013 08:35 IcED Bk wrote: I don't know about this, zerg DOES NOT need the scouting ability. Protoss now is going to have a hard time trying to kill off scouts.
Protoss can scout Zergs easily with:
• mammacore with giant vision radius • hallucinations, especially fast and for free aka Phoenix hallucination • observer • oracles when harassing • real phoenixes
Or why not give the old infestor it's neural parasite range back and decrease energy cost. Make it so it can't target massive units and suddenly mines can be turned against the bio.
On August 27 2013 07:01 blade55555 wrote: This change won't change zvt at all lol. Imo a good one would be allowing research of 3/3 after starting infestation pit. I don't see how it would be imbalanced at all considering protoss and terran only have to make 1 more building to start 2/2 and 3/3 (twilight for toss, armory for terran).
Different races are different. Terrans need one building (Armory 150/100/65s) for 2/2 and 3/3 upgrades, Protoss is similar - 150/100/50. Zergs need one "building" too for 3/3 upgrades - Hive for 250/150/100s, which also allows other things too, like broods and ultras.
I love stuff like this, shows how easy it is to justify whatever the fuck you want to justify.
Both the Terran and Protoss upgrade structures require 150/100, the major difference is required tech and the 15 additional seconds for the Armory as compared to the Council, then you jump to the Zerg building which is 100 more minerals, 50 more gas, and 35 more seconds compared to the armory, 50 if you compare it to the citadel.
If you weren't so busy justifying and protecting the status quo, you might look at the Lair, which is also 150/100, and takes another 15 seconds longer than the Armor and *gasp* this would make all 3 races similar in the sense that 1 building allows 2/2 and 3/3 for T1 units.
But it's ok, let's all keep changing the mantra: "different races are different"
On August 27 2013 04:27 Plansix wrote: I agree with their approach of one step at a time. I like the idea of making mech viable, it is just a question of getting that done without breaking the entire game. They should focus on making the transition from hellions to battle hellions more viable without the use of a tech lab or armory. Anything to make that transition more natural in a standard build.
And for everyone who is going to say “just buff tanks”. I feel safe is saying that likely tried that and it just made marine/tank more viable, with mines for extra AOE awesome.
I don't think they should buff Mech if it is not a Tank buff, since everything else Mech is basicly a-move. I strongly believe that a buff to Tanks and nerf to Widow Mines would make TvZ much more enjoyable and also possibly making Mech viable.
As i see it the problem with Widow Mines right now is that it is a unit that is good against everything Zerg, a bit like how Infestors used to be good against everything. At this point there is simply no obvious counter to Widow Mines. One of the strengths of Zerg is the ability to switch tech faster than the two other races, but this strength makes no difference when the best answer against Zerg will always be: make more Widow Mines.
I believe that Tanks should get a substantial buff in Siege mode, while bringing back the upgrade requirement and nerfing Widow Mines to the ground, or redesign them altogether. Also there should be a buff to Mech anti-air since Thors doesn't cut it against Mutas anymore.
On August 27 2013 04:27 Plansix wrote: I agree with their approach of one step at a time. I like the idea of making mech viable, it is just a question of getting that done without breaking the entire game. They should focus on making the transition from hellions to battle hellions more viable without the use of a tech lab or armory. Anything to make that transition more natural in a standard build.
And for everyone who is going to say “just buff tanks”. I feel safe is saying that likely tried that and it just made marine/tank more viable, with mines for extra AOE awesome.
I don't think they should buff Mech if it is not a Tank buff, since everything else Mech is basicly a-move. I strongly believe that a buff to Tanks and nerf to Widow Mines would make TvZ much more enjoyable and also possibly making Mech viable.
As i see it the problem with Widow Mines right now is that it is a unit that is good against everything Zerg, a bit like how Infestors used to be good against everything. At this point there is simply no obvious counter to Widow Mines. One of the strengths of Zerg is the ability to switch tech faster than the two other races, but this strength makes no difference when the best answer against Zerg will always be: make more Widow Mines.
I believe that Tanks should get a substantial buff in Siege mode, while bringing back the upgrade requirement and nerfing Widow Mines to the ground, or redesign them altogether. Also there should be a buff to Mech anti-air since Thors doesn't cut it against Mutas anymore.
I agree because the disposing of tanks so fast is a disappointing outcome for something supposedly strong. They're supposed to be a greater force.
The Widow Mine problem would be simply fixed by roughly doubling the cost (150min 75 gas) and/or decreasing the splash radius. They're great early for expanding, but not a traveling unit (it seems out of character that a mine traverses the map with the rest of the army).
I am a terran and still I feel from the games I have seen lately, that zergs have it a bit to tough against the bio+mine strategies we have seen lots of since the release of hots.
I hope this change will make it easier for zerg to use their mutas to some mines and marines without loosing to much, so they have a little bit of an easier time, when the real engagement finally happens (because of the missing 2-3-4 mines compared to before) Maybe they can even use mutas a bit more offensively as they used to in WoL.
On August 27 2013 07:01 blade55555 wrote: This change won't change zvt at all lol. Imo a good one would be allowing research of 3/3 after starting infestation pit. I don't see how it would be imbalanced at all considering protoss and terran only have to make 1 more building to start 2/2 and 3/3 (twilight for toss, armory for terran).
Different races are different. Terrans need one building (Armory 150/100/65s) for 2/2 and 3/3 upgrades, Protoss is similar - 150/100/50. Zergs need one "building" too for 3/3 upgrades - Hive for 250/150/100s, which also allows other things too, like broods and ultras.
Uh is that the best argument you can come up with? Just because god forbid they let zergs start 3/3 off of 1 building just like terran/protoss doesn't make them similar at all. Why is it fine for protoss and terran to do it but if we do it for zerg oh no the races are identical now?
I mean here is the difference, terran makes an armory (150/100 iirc), protoss makes a twilight(150/150 right?) and bam they can get 2/2 3/3.
Zerg has to make a lair 150/100 (we can even exclude this if you want), an infestation pit 100/100 AND go hive which is another 200/150 (or 200/100 can't remember which) before they can get 3-3. It still costs a zerg more money AND time to start 3/3 then the other races.
On August 27 2013 07:01 blade55555 wrote: This change won't change zvt at all lol. Imo a good one would be allowing research of 3/3 after starting infestation pit. I don't see how it would be imbalanced at all considering protoss and terran only have to make 1 more building to start 2/2 and 3/3 (twilight for toss, armory for terran).
Different races are different. Terrans need one building (Armory 150/100/65s) for 2/2 and 3/3 upgrades, Protoss is similar - 150/100/50. Zergs need one "building" too for 3/3 upgrades - Hive for 250/150/100s, which also allows other things too, like broods and ultras.
I love stuff like this, shows how easy it is to justify whatever the fuck you want to justify.
Both the Terran and Protoss upgrade structures require 150/100, the major difference is required tech and the 15 additional seconds for the Armory as compared to the Council, then you jump to the Zerg building which is 100 more minerals, 50 more gas, and 35 more seconds compared to the armory, 50 if you compare it to the citadel.
If you weren't so busy justifying and protecting the status quo, you might look at the Lair, which is also 150/100, and takes another 15 seconds longer than the Armor and *gasp* this would make all 3 races similar in the sense that 1 building allows 2/2 and 3/3 for T1 units.
But it's ok, let's all keep changing the mantra: "different races are different"
you guys are missing infestation pit which is an additonal 100/100/50s so basicly hive is 350/250/150s
On August 27 2013 07:01 blade55555 wrote: This change won't change zvt at all lol. Imo a good one would be allowing research of 3/3 after starting infestation pit. I don't see how it would be imbalanced at all considering protoss and terran only have to make 1 more building to start 2/2 and 3/3 (twilight for toss, armory for terran).
Different races are different. Terrans need one building (Armory 150/100/65s) for 2/2 and 3/3 upgrades, Protoss is similar - 150/100/50. Zergs need one "building" too for 3/3 upgrades - Hive for 250/150/100s, which also allows other things too, like broods and ultras.
Uh is that the best argument you can come up with? Just because god forbid they let zergs start 3/3 off of 1 building just like terran/protoss doesn't make them similar at all. Why is it fine for protoss and terran to do it but if we do it for zerg oh no the races are identical now?
I mean here is the difference, terran makes an armory (150/100 iirc), protoss makes a twilight(150/150 right?) and bam they can get 2/2 3/3.
Zerg has to make a lair 150/100 (we can even exclude this if you want), an infestation pit 100/100 AND go hive which is another 200/150 (or 200/100 can't remember which) before they can get 3-3. It still costs a zerg more money AND time to start 3/3 then the other races.
Yeah, and what makes it worse (and what makes the change a good thing, in my opinion) is the fact that zergs just cannot survive vs T with infestor ling bane. They would probably be a tad bit stronger in direct engagements but they would just get shredded by drops. What we are seeing is that way too often the zerg cannot survive while still going for the 3/3 upgrades and then we hear simple-minded people saying "wow, why didn't Zx go for 3-3 upgrades vs Tx, ofc he will die when Tx reaches 3-3!".
On August 27 2013 09:40 VayneAuthority wrote: the day mech becomes viable is the day everyone plays terran unless bio is nerfed before then
they already dominate quite well even when everyone knows whats coming.
Why is that? Mech being viable would not make Terran as a race stronger, it would merely give Terran more than one viable tech path.
Although technically it wouldn't make Terran stronger at any ONE POINT (if it was balanced or weaker than bio), the versatility could conceivably result in an increase in mind games and strategies from Terran, thus leading to Zergs and Protoss responding less correctly or promptly than they do now, resulting in higher Terran win percentages.
i.e. a race that could employ rock and paper is harder to win against than one that can only play paper. Both rock and paper are balanced, but now you can't always choose scissors. Overly-simplistic analogy.
Its not so much late game that is hard its more that mid game spirals out of control to the Zerg losing. That push that innovation and pretty much every terran is doing at the moment either the Zerg is greedy and crushes the first push and breaks even but the terran can't push out for a little bit longer or they trade evenly the first push and keep having to try to trade evenly for the rest of the game or they trade badly and lose. There is no middle ground at all. Ive seen games both at pro level and in my own play that shouldn't have been even remotely close that have ended up closer than they should have been and its entirely because of widow mines.
The simple fact of the matter is if they didn't hit air there wouldn't be any problem. The Zerg can micro the terran still has marines to rip apart the muta so its just a micro battle that is even.
Great change, a lot of TvZ trouble comes from the 3-3 mmm vs 2-2 bling/muta/ling. this change allows for a small amount of extra gas that normally would've been wasted on remaking overseers.
Also noobs like me won't have to worry about losing them to chasing stalkers when I forgot about my overseers XD
On August 27 2013 09:40 VayneAuthority wrote: the day mech becomes viable is the day everyone plays terran unless bio is nerfed before then
they already dominate quite well even when everyone knows whats coming.
Why is that? Mech being viable would not make Terran as a race stronger, it would merely give Terran more than one viable tech path.
Although technically it wouldn't make Terran stronger at any ONE POINT (if it was balanced or weaker than bio), the versatility could conceivably result in an increase in mind games and strategies from Terran, thus leading to Zergs and Protoss responding less correctly or promptly than they do now, resulting in higher Terran win percentages.
i.e. a race that could employ rock and paper is harder to win against than one that can only play paper. Both rock and paper are balanced, but now you can't always choose scissors. Overly-simplistic analogy.
yea this. I already struggle enough in pvt as is in trying to know if they are 2 rax'ing, doing a widow mine drop, reaper FE, etc
If I had to account for mech too it makes them inherently stronger and the race is already pretty damn strong.
They should at least make the mines more visible. Make them neon pink or yellow or whatever color that will stick out. I hate this kind of sly balancing act in a game where by design your eye sight matters more than your reaction time. It is also for the benefit of the viewers. It's already hard to tell ghosts from group of marines/marauders. I hated the shimmering of cloaked units as well when this game came out and believe they should be truly invisible instead of simply untargettable without detectos. That probably is too late to fix, but surely widow mines can change its outfit so that players and viewers alike can see them better apart.
On August 27 2013 09:36 ZenithM wrote: Probably a good patch, although I'm always worried to see Zerg buffed :p "Queen's range +2" *shudders*
The Queen range buff was very good for the game. No more random deaths for Zergs and viable anti air.
If it came with an infestor nerf then 2012 would have been the golden age of SC2 imo.
Bolded parts are totally 100% true.
Ps. Hell, at second thought, even the middle statement is true. Zergs totally died randomly in the meta around the time Queens were buffed.
What? Hellion-contain was the issue and not "random deaths" ala. uber all-ins? Queen range buff was only applied to Queen-to-ground attacks and not anti-air? Lies, all Terran lies.
Wonder if it's feasible... morph 9 overseers ---> move command over widow mines right before engaging, try to hit terran army with them. Of course, he can unburrow --> reburrow but it would be sick.
On August 27 2013 09:36 ZenithM wrote: Probably a good patch, although I'm always worried to see Zerg buffed :p "Queen's range +2" *shudders*
The Queen range buff was very good for the game. No more random deaths for Zergs and viable anti air.
If it came with an infestor nerf then 2012 would have been the golden age of SC2 imo.
I disagree. It made the early game too 1-dimensional and uninteresting.
Zergs opened with 4-6 queens in nearly every ZvT. You could pretty much go do something else for like 5 mins before the real game got underway in watching pro matches.The kicker is that 4 queen openings were already being experimented with prior to the patch. DRG was probably one of the most popular user of it at the time.
I would try to stray from passive buffs like that, as well as the preposed ultralisk buff. It's lazy balancing. In a perfect world the viper could be better, as I think that was the best unit added to HotS.
On August 27 2013 09:36 ZenithM wrote: Probably a good patch, although I'm always worried to see Zerg buffed :p "Queen's range +2" *shudders*
The Queen range buff was very good for the game. No more random deaths for Zergs and viable anti air.
If it came with an infestor nerf then 2012 would have been the golden age of SC2 imo.
Bolded parts are totally 100% true.
Ps. Hell, at second thought, even the middle statement is true. Zergs totally died randomly in the meta around the time Queens were buffed.
What? Hellion-contain was the issue and not "random deaths" ala. uber all-ins? Queen range buff was only applied to Queen-to-ground attacks and not anti-air? Lies, all Terran lies.
ya, I think people forget how many terrible games we have before the range buff were the hellions would just randomly run in and win the game. Not to mention the brutal hellion contains every game.
Everyone only remembers the good times :p
Another one of my favorite mental games here.
People love to complain about Zerg having viable defense to bullshit.
The queen buff stopped 2 rax and free hellion runbys from randomly destroying Zergs in the early game. This is obviously unfair. Let's forget the fact that Zerg is the race most incapable of breaking defensive positions, Zerg units compete with drones for larva, and Zerg easily has the worst macro of all 3 races off of 1 base, they shouldn't be able to defend themselves worth a shit, that's unfair!
6 hellions should be a guaranteed 10 drone kills. 4 gate should be a viable top-level strategy. And why the hell can't a single Zealot slaughter 4 lings right out of the box? He only spent 2 drones worth of production defending against that! What the hell!?!?!?!
Hmmm, lots of people think TvZ is bad? It's usually the top 1% of Terran in like a few BOX that show they can destroy top 1% of Zergs and usually it's because they played better. Not only that...Terran doesn't always win, it's pretty even I'd say from my viewing experiences.
Dunno why everyone acts like there's a problem TvZ. Mines just force the Zerg to micro just as much as the Terran has to vs banelings imo (which zergs do not like of course).
We'll see if they make mech better, the combined upgrades obviously will make vikings less bad, but it doesn't really address any of the issues which are :
-armories too expensive to begin upgrades at a time in the game when P/Z/bio T are getting ebays/evo chamber/forge -swarmhosts -viper -immortal -tempest (well, ok the combined upgrades addresses this a TINY bit since you'll have upgraded vikings.
Not going to hold my breath, don't think anyone else should either about making mech better until we see them actually do something :D But hey, at least they're actually waking up so to speak.
On August 27 2013 11:57 avilo wrote: Hmmm, lots of people think TvZ is bad? It's usually the top 1% of Terran in like a few BOX that show they can destroy top 1% of Zergs and usually it's because they played better. Not only that...Terran doesn't always win, it's pretty even I'd say from my viewing experiences.
Dunno why everyone acts like there's a problem TvZ. Mines just force the Zerg to micro just as much as the Terran has to vs banelings imo (which zergs do not like of course).
We'll see if they make mech better, the combined upgrades obviously will make vikings less bad, but it doesn't really address any of the issues which are :
-armories too expensive to begin upgrades at a time in the game when P/Z/bio T are getting ebays/evo chamber/forge -swarmhosts -viper -immortal -tempest (well, ok the combined upgrades addresses this a TINY bit since you'll have upgraded vikings.
Not going to hold my breath, don't think anyone else should either about making mech better until we see them actually do something :D But hey, at least they're actually waking up so to speak.
Usually justification usually justification usually it's fine guys, nothing to see here, move on.
They will continue to explore ways to make mech viable, like they have pretended to for the last 3 years?
I'll admit the upgrade buff wasn't the ideal way to buff mech, but it was at least something. It would never have been overpowered, and it could have actually encouraged more people to experiment with mech. But I guess we gotta be more careful than that, can't risk having people make units besides MUHREENS.
On August 27 2013 06:38 FeyFey wrote: I wish everything would become slower instead of faster, but thats because I want Siege tanks to fire atleast 3 shots before they roll over and die instead of 2. Anyway will make control for the Zerg easier, because they can a-move around the map not having to fear something burrowed, their map control will be fearsome again. In the end this solidifies Mines in their role as the Siege Tank for Bio, while Mines doing ground control will be nearly useless against Zerg. Will be interesting to see how this turns out, but it basically forces Terran even more into the 4m rally style. But the new maps will do more for TvZ then this change imo.
This is pretty much the crux of why Mech blows in SC2
In BW, shitty clumping also meant that units took longer to surround tanks, and that tanks can get more than 1 shot off before they get surrounded. Which in some ways, made everything so much more strategical.
mech is very viable vs protoss on maps like akilon wastes. In fact, I see more mech on that map then non-mech. If they gave terran that dual upgrades on armories, every protoss would have to veto akilon.
On August 27 2013 09:07 nixi wrote: Or why not give the old infestor it's neural parasite range back and decrease energy cost. Make it so it can't target massive units and suddenly mines can be turned against the bio.
Speaking of infestors, I've always wondered why we don't see more Infested Terran minesweeper (the way Zergs would bait out Sieged Tank FF).
Blizzard is so scared to buff Zerg, and so scared to nerf Terran it's hilarious. Everyone knew this was coming going into HotS, with the way WoL ended, but I didn't think they would take it this far.
On August 27 2013 13:24 VayneAuthority wrote: mech is very viable vs protoss on maps like akilon wastes. In fact, I see more mech on that map then non-mech. If they gave terran that dual upgrades on armories, every protoss would have to veto akilon.
On August 27 2013 09:07 nixi wrote: Or why not give the old infestor it's neural parasite range back and decrease energy cost. Make it so it can't target massive units and suddenly mines can be turned against the bio.
Speaking of infestors, I've always wondered why we don't see more Infested Terran minesweeper (the way Zergs would bait out Sieged Tank FF).
Because infested terran eggs have only 70 hp and 2 armor, and marines have +1 if not +2 by the time infestors are out, You might as well send in a pair of zerglings which don't cost you gas and have the same armor.
Earlier some posters suggested infestor buffs like buffing the egg's armor, increasing their move speed on creep, or lowering fungal cost. I think these buffs could be interesting to watch, especially if they prompted a late game ghost transition from terran into the meta.
On August 27 2013 09:07 nixi wrote: Or why not give the old infestor it's neural parasite range back and decrease energy cost. Make it so it can't target massive units and suddenly mines can be turned against the bio.
Speaking of infestors, I've always wondered why we don't see more Infested Terran minesweeper (the way Zergs would bait out Sieged Tank FF).
They tend to die before the mines go off, not to mention its pretty risky. 1 infestor is not enough so the moment you start using infested terrans you have the risk of terran simply scanning and destroying them all.
They maybe need to buff mech, but it is a strange way to develop the meta game.
It seems like some mus just get stuck, like the zvt in wol, where nothing happened at the end. Not to mention the horrible pvz with the unevitable late game that always looked the same with the infestors vs the mothership core. The way people played just wouldn't develop until blizzard steped in and tweaked things. This is worrisome imo. In BW, even at the very end, the metagame was evolving more quickly and you saw more new things than you do in most mus right now in sc2 I think.
On August 27 2013 09:07 nixi wrote: Or why not give the old infestor it's neural parasite range back and decrease energy cost. Make it so it can't target massive units and suddenly mines can be turned against the bio.
Speaking of infestors, I've always wondered why we don't see more Infested Terran minesweeper (the way Zergs would bait out Sieged Tank FF).
They tend to die before the mines go off, not to mention its pretty risky. 1 infestor is not enough so the moment you start using infested terrans you have the risk of terran simply scanning and destroying them all.
3.75 is too fast.. give it 3.25 for start... zergs will see even more now... not that they did not. better make some mid game for zerg.. late game is ok for zerg it it gets there without being behind. I guess the only problem in TvZ is midgame where terran can take a lead.
On August 27 2013 15:12 jarod wrote: 3.75 is too fast.. give it 3.25 for start... zergs will see even more now... not that they did not. better make some mid game for zerg.. late game is ok for zerg it it gets there without being behind. I guess the only problem in TvZ is midgame where terran can take a lead.
Ya misread.
The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade now increases Overseer movement speed from 1.88 to 3.375 (previously 1.88 to 2.75.)
essentially this thing is a flying perma-stimmed Marine
if they merge zerg carapace upgrades like they did with terran ones, zergs will be fine late zvt. 3/3 for flyers and 3/3 for melee is not economically viable. protoss air > all, so there shouldn't be much of a problem there.
On August 27 2013 09:07 nixi wrote: Or why not give the old infestor it's neural parasite range back and decrease energy cost. Make it so it can't target massive units and suddenly mines can be turned against the bio.
Speaking of infestors, I've always wondered why we don't see more Infested Terran minesweeper (the way Zergs would bait out Sieged Tank FF).
They tend to die before the mines go off, not to mention its pretty risky. 1 infestor is not enough so the moment you start using infested terrans you have the risk of terran simply scanning and destroying them all.
I don't remember Terrans using much Ghosts against Infestor/Broodlord in WoL. They complained instead. So any buffs to Infestors will just lead to complaining, not using Ghosts.
On August 27 2013 09:07 nixi wrote: Or why not give the old infestor it's neural parasite range back and decrease energy cost. Make it so it can't target massive units and suddenly mines can be turned against the bio.
Speaking of infestors, I've always wondered why we don't see more Infested Terran minesweeper (the way Zergs would bait out Sieged Tank FF).
Because infested terran eggs have only 70 hp and 2 armor, and marines have +1 if not +2 by the time infestors are out, You might as well send in a pair of zerglings which don't cost you gas and have the same armor.
Earlier some posters suggested infestor buffs like buffing the egg's armor, increasing their move speed on creep, or lowering fungal cost. I think these buffs could be interesting to watch, especially if they prompted a late game ghost transition from terran into the meta.
Ah that makes sense.
I'm also wondering if some incremental buff to zerg casters are in order as well given how they've close to fallen off the map. Not sure how this Overseer buff will work, but significant or not, I hope Blizzard revisits the other tech trees (as this changes nothing in that regard)... MMMM vs Muta/Ling/Bane will get stale eventually.
Seeing how TvZ can be hard for Z now makes Scarlett's performance at WCS world finals even more impressive. Probably even more impressive than what did Stephano at his best.
On August 27 2013 16:12 samurai80 wrote: Seeing how TvZ can be hard for Z now makes Scarlett's performance at WCS world finals even more impressive. Probably even more impressive than what did Stephano at his best.
Its up there for sure. I don't even know how she does it really and it seems other Zergs have no clue as well
On August 27 2013 16:12 samurai80 wrote: Seeing how TvZ can be hard for Z now makes Scarlett's performance at WCS world finals even more impressive. Probably even more impressive than what did Stephano at his best.
Eh, if it's a player winning despite difficulty of match ups I can't go past FruitDealer still.
On August 27 2013 16:12 samurai80 wrote: Seeing how TvZ can be hard for Z now makes Scarlett's performance at WCS world finals even more impressive. Probably even more impressive than what did Stephano at his best.
Its up there for sure. I don't even know how she does it really and it seems other Zergs have no clue as well
That hot sticky creep spread, baby
Did you see Jaedong's creep spread in the finals? It was outrageously good. But still no match for terran. It proved that really good 4M beats muta ling bane completely, even on creep.
In fact, I was really impressed by the speed of Jaedong's creep spread, and was surprised that I didn't even notice commentators mentioning it at all. That made the 4M attack even more frustrating TBH.
I think it's a weird change if you want to help Zergs vs bio Mine. This change will mostly improve Muta harass, Overseers will follow Mutas better, so u can spot mines, Better scouting and contamination is drastically better, since you can be more aggressive about it, since losing your overseer is not an issue.
Not that this is huge, but this also makes the buffed overseer faster than the speed observer: No speed : 1.875 (obs) vs 1.88 (overseer) With speed upgrade: 2.8125 (speed obs) vs 2.75 (speed overseer, before patch) / 3.375 (after patch)
For example Z can make a few mutas to help clean observers on the map in the late game when protoss is looking to harass the zerg's new expansions while checking his army position.
On August 27 2013 16:12 samurai80 wrote: Seeing how TvZ can be hard for Z now makes Scarlett's performance at WCS world finals even more impressive. Probably even more impressive than what did Stephano at his best.
Its up there for sure. I don't even know how she does it really and it seems other Zergs have no clue as well
That hot sticky creep spread, baby
Did you see Jaedong's creep spread in the finals? It was outrageously good. But still no match for terran. It proved that really good 4M beats muta ling bane completely, even on creep.
In fact, I was really impressed by the speed of Jaedong's creep spread, and was surprised that I didn't even notice commentators mentioning it at all. That made the 4M attack even more frustrating TBH.
Yeah it was kind of insane how amazing that Creep spread was and Bomber decided to fuck it and attack on creep. It didn't even matter.
On August 27 2013 16:12 samurai80 wrote: Seeing how TvZ can be hard for Z now makes Scarlett's performance at WCS world finals even more impressive. Probably even more impressive than what did Stephano at his best.
Its up there for sure. I don't even know how she does it really and it seems other Zergs have no clue as well
That hot sticky creep spread, baby
Did you see Jaedong's creep spread in the finals? It was outrageously good. But still no match for terran. It proved that really good 4M beats muta ling bane completely, even on creep.
In fact, I was really impressed by the speed of Jaedong's creep spread, and was surprised that I didn't even notice commentators mentioning it at all. That made the 4M attack even more frustrating TBH.
Yeah it was kind of insane how amazing that Creep spread was and Bomber decided to fuck it and attack on creep. It didn't even matter.
JD was pushing creep with several tumors on 5 different fronts.
But you don't let a terran 3 CC 2 engie bay and survive long enough to brag about creep spread.
On August 27 2013 17:44 saddaromma wrote: I always wondered why players don't make 5-6 overseers and disable enemy's production. I hope it might happen with this patch.
Using simple calculations, you need 7 overseers(assuming good timing), to constantly contaminate one production building.
Not worth it, micro-wise or resource-wise. It's only real use is to delay reinforcements after you wipe out an army IMO.
On August 27 2013 16:12 samurai80 wrote: Seeing how TvZ can be hard for Z now makes Scarlett's performance at WCS world finals even more impressive. Probably even more impressive than what did Stephano at his best.
Its up there for sure. I don't even know how she does it really and it seems other Zergs have no clue as well
That hot sticky creep spread, baby
Did you see Jaedong's creep spread in the finals? It was outrageously good. But still no match for terran. It proved that really good 4M beats muta ling bane completely, even on creep.
In fact, I was really impressed by the speed of Jaedong's creep spread, and was surprised that I didn't even notice commentators mentioning it at all. That made the 4M attack even more frustrating TBH.
Yeah it was kind of insane how amazing that Creep spread was and Bomber decided to fuck it and attack on creep. It didn't even matter.
JD was pushing creep with several tumors on 5 different fronts.
But you don't let a terran 3 CC 2 engie bay and survive long enough to brag about creep spread.
While overall a small buff, I consider this change great because the overseer gets much more use with speed research. Currently I am always asking myself if I should research speed or rather morph an overseer. Now it is worthwhile to do both quite early. I like to be able to scout enemy bases
On August 27 2013 16:12 samurai80 wrote: Seeing how TvZ can be hard for Z now makes Scarlett's performance at WCS world finals even more impressive. Probably even more impressive than what did Stephano at his best.
Its up there for sure. I don't even know how she does it really and it seems other Zergs have no clue as well
That hot sticky creep spread, baby
Did you see Jaedong's creep spread in the finals? It was outrageously good. But still no match for terran. It proved that really good 4M beats muta ling bane completely, even on creep.
In fact, I was really impressed by the speed of Jaedong's creep spread, and was surprised that I didn't even notice commentators mentioning it at all. That made the 4M attack even more frustrating TBH.
Yeah it was kind of insane how amazing that Creep spread was and Bomber decided to fuck it and attack on creep. It didn't even matter.
JD was pushing creep with several tumors on 5 different fronts.
But you don't let a terran 3 CC 2 engie bay and survive long enough to brag about creep spread.
On August 27 2013 18:12 agfoxGnom wrote: Why do I need vikings when I cant kill with them anything? I cant kill prism, now I cant prevend zerg from scouting.. gosh
Vikings have 9 range, that's a huge area you can essentially block off. And you can still easily kill speedseers during the battle, it's more a case of being able to catch up quicker with overseers and not constantly having to reproduce overseers left and right.
On August 27 2013 04:22 lolfail9001 wrote: Fine change, though it would be hilarious if some terran would start trying to catch overseer, thinking it is slower than stimmed marines and ran right into 2 banelings :D.
can we all just stop what we are doing right now and read what this man just wrote.
i truly am grateful some have the foresight for such truly poignant eventualities.
On August 27 2013 04:19 iLevitate wrote: As mc once said : Flying maphavk )
which is terribly ironic considering he plays the race which has the observer.
The thing about maphacks that can make them very strong is you don't know the opponent has them — it's the same thing with observers — an observer that's not moving is extremely hard to notice, and it can be used to spot key positional changes without zerg being aware of what's going on.
Obviously observers aren't spread all around the map or too frequently around the opponent's main base (or army) near the late game due to costs and risk of death, but that doesn't mean it isn't very helpful sometimes still. It's not like overseers are spread around the map any more than observers either I think (although with changelings that's not the case)
There is nothing "great" about the widowmine anyway. Macro terran will beat macro zerg with it, because its a cheap "all or nothing" throw away unit. It´s worse than a tank in friendly fire, and it its just place , and cross fingers.
Remembering BoxxeR caring about every god damn marine in his service makes me sad to watch current TvZ because its all throw away...rebuild and overwhelm with cost effective units. So terran has become the better Zerg.
On August 27 2013 16:12 samurai80 wrote: Seeing how TvZ can be hard for Z now makes Scarlett's performance at WCS world finals even more impressive. Probably even more impressive than what did Stephano at his best.
Its up there for sure. I don't even know how she does it really and it seems other Zergs have no clue as well
That hot sticky creep spread, baby
Did you see Jaedong's creep spread in the finals? It was outrageously good. But still no match for terran. It proved that really good 4M beats muta ling bane completely, even on creep.
In fact, I was really impressed by the speed of Jaedong's creep spread, and was surprised that I didn't even notice commentators mentioning it at all. That made the 4M attack even more frustrating TBH.
Yeah it was kind of insane how amazing that Creep spread was and Bomber decided to fuck it and attack on creep. It didn't even matter.
JD was pushing creep with several tumors on 5 different fronts.
But you don't let a terran 3 CC 2 engie bay and survive long enough to brag about creep spread.
On August 27 2013 18:12 agfoxGnom wrote: Why do I need vikings when I cant kill with them anything? I cant kill prism, now I cant prevend zerg from scouting.. gosh
... and a zerg cannot prevent you from scouting either :D
overseer speed buff is kinda okeish .. its not really big but i this will help #1 help zerg micro a little better vs widow mines since it is able to keep up with the ling bling a little bit #2 it will allow mutalisk to scout and harass a little better without the fear of blindy diving towards mines #3 possible contaminate strategies on robo of toss #4 help zerg scout better without the risk of it dying
i am glad blizz is thinking of making mech viable so that terran have variaty and possible bio-mech mix
On August 27 2013 20:32 goody153 wrote: overseer speed buff is kinda okeish .. its not really big but i this will help #1 help zerg micro a little better vs widow mines since it is able to keep up with the ling bling a little bit #2 it will allow mutalisk to scout and harass a little better without the fear of blindy diving towards mines #3 possible contaminate strategies on robo of toss #4 help zerg scout better without the risk of it dying
i am glad blizz is thinking of making mech viable so that terran have variaty and possible bio-mech mix
I dont know about 3. Giving overseer speed buff after the upgrade doesn't really make its energy goes any faster. It will still take forever to get 125 energy.
On August 27 2013 20:41 ZenithM wrote: I'm Terran and when I read avilo say that the game is fine, I know that there is definitely something too strong with Terran haha :D
On August 27 2013 04:30 Bagi wrote: I don't mind the overseer buff. But its really nothing at all.
The mech buff they had in mind wasn't ideal, but it was something. Something that could possibly have terran players experiment with different builds besides MMM. But I guess making the game interesting isn't a priority, lets just make every terran player go through the exact same motions every game like they have for months now.
I loved watching terran games in WoL, even when they were getting raped by BL/infestor. I root against terran players in HOTS, every game is just MMM spam.
The buff is good. My problem #1 right now is middle to late game ZvT. Mines are just so annoying and mechanically hard to clear that you need to be about 30-40 apm above the terran player to win. I agree that it may not be enough and I would prefer to see a simple widow mine nerf, but on the side of zerg buffs I think this is optimal.
On August 27 2013 13:24 VayneAuthority wrote: mech is very viable vs protoss on maps like akilon wastes. In fact, I see more mech on that map then non-mech. If they gave terran that dual upgrades on armories, every protoss would have to veto akilon.
Please dude. A Protoss army can comfortably a-move into a a Siege line.
On August 27 2013 13:24 VayneAuthority wrote: mech is very viable vs protoss on maps like akilon wastes. In fact, I see more mech on that map then non-mech. If they gave terran that dual upgrades on armories, every protoss would have to veto akilon.
Please dude. A Protoss army can comfortably a-move into a a Siege line.
I'll come into this thread once every three months to remind you that Protoss is stillby far the least succesful race in the pro scene in HoTS, but hey, by all means, let's all worry about the unbearable situation with Zerg and get that race to win some more tournaments so Terran doesn't get it all.
On August 27 2013 13:24 VayneAuthority wrote: mech is very viable vs protoss on maps like akilon wastes. In fact, I see more mech on that map then non-mech. If they gave terran that dual upgrades on armories, every protoss would have to veto akilon.
Please dude. A Protoss army can comfortably a-move into a a Siege line.
I'll come into this thread once every three months to remind you that Protoss is stillby far the least succesful race in the pro scene in HoTS, but hey, by all means, let's all worry about the unbearable situation with Zerg and get that race to win some more tournaments so Terran doesn't get it all.
Blame your top level representatives for choking hard when it matters.
On August 27 2013 13:24 VayneAuthority wrote: mech is very viable vs protoss on maps like akilon wastes. In fact, I see more mech on that map then non-mech. If they gave terran that dual upgrades on armories, every protoss would have to veto akilon.
Please dude. A Protoss army can comfortably a-move into a a Siege line.
I'll come into this thread once every three months to remind you that Protoss is stillby far the least succesful race in the pro scene in HoTS, but hey, by all means, let's all worry about the unbearable situation with Zerg and get that race to win some more tournaments so Terran doesn't get it all.
I also feels like protoss needs some fix.
Seriously, they should do something about gateway units one day. something like buffing gateway units but moving warp gate into higher tech or some sort.
And they need to look at some of protoss flying things like oracle, Mothership (are you still there, mama?), carrier, tempest, etc...
On August 27 2013 04:30 Bagi wrote: I don't mind the overseer buff. But its really nothing at all.
The mech buff they had in mind wasn't ideal, but it was something. Something that could possibly have terran players experiment with different builds besides MMM. But I guess making the game interesting isn't a priority, lets just make every terran player go through the exact same motions every game like they have for months now.
I loved watching terran games in WoL, even when they were getting raped by BL/infestor. I root against terran players in HOTS, every game is just MMM spam.
The buff is good. My problem #1 right now is middle to late game ZvT. Mines are just so annoying and mechanically hard to clear that you need to be about 30-40 apm above the terran player to win. I agree that it may not be enough and I would prefer to see a simple widow mine nerf, but on the side of zerg buffs I think this is optimal.
Not sure thats true. I think in terms of EAPM its pretty even for both players, or terran could still be slightly more mechanical demanding. But Zerg generally have more APM than terrans due to larva mechanic. I honestly think the issue lies with it being harder for terran to lose than zerg to lose. Zerg seems to get punished harder for mismicro/losing battles than terran does. I would actually have liked to see another small change: Like what about reducing baneling morph time by a couple of seconds? Often times it seems that terran can win the game after a battle as he can kill the morphin banelings.
On August 27 2013 21:57 DoubleReed wrote: If Overseers are that fast then contaminate might be way more viable to add into your strats. Your overseer is way less likely to die.
Basically I want to see a game where Terran cannot manage to get 3/3 because of contaminate.
if we get enough gas to do that upgrade despite of non stop drops oh well, I'm patient to wait for more balance changes
On August 27 2013 13:24 VayneAuthority wrote: mech is very viable vs protoss on maps like akilon wastes. In fact, I see more mech on that map then non-mech. If they gave terran that dual upgrades on armories, every protoss would have to veto akilon.
Please dude. A Protoss army can comfortably a-move into a a Siege line.
I'll come into this thread once every three months to remind you that Protoss is stillby far the least succesful race in the pro scene in HoTS, but hey, by all means, let's all worry about the unbearable situation with Zerg and get that race to win some more tournaments so Terran doesn't get it all.
Blame your top level representatives for choking hard when it matters.
Dwf you are worse than Avilo when it comes to sensible balance talk.
On August 27 2013 13:24 VayneAuthority wrote: mech is very viable vs protoss on maps like akilon wastes. In fact, I see more mech on that map then non-mech. If they gave terran that dual upgrades on armories, every protoss would have to veto akilon.
Please dude. A Protoss army can comfortably a-move into a a Siege line.
I'll come into this thread once every three months to remind you that Protoss is stillby far the least succesful race in the pro scene in HoTS, but hey, by all means, let's all worry about the unbearable situation with Zerg and get that race to win some more tournaments so Terran doesn't get it all.
only looking at tournament wins is about as stupid as your comment though. I don't say this change is great but a small nudge for ZvT which is the only matchup with some obvious problems now is fine since I don't think this change really affects ZvP too much. I had rather seen something else to make the hive transition a bit smoother but this isn't the worst.
On August 27 2013 21:57 DoubleReed wrote: If Overseers are that fast then contaminate might be way more viable to add into your strats. Your overseer is way less likely to die.
Basically I want to see a game where Terran cannot manage to get 3/3 because of contaminate.
if we get enough gas to do that upgrade despite of non stop drops oh well, I'm patient to wait for more balance changes
On August 27 2013 21:09 Existor wrote: Best change to overseer against Widow Mines will be next thing:
Overseers on attack-move will stop at any widow mine at sight-range, when they (Overseers) found it.
how about reducing contaminate cost to 25 but only to be working on units? :p
Come on blizzard, just nerf WM.
Don’t listen to them Blizzard. Don’t do it to terran again. Don’t nerf things that work, buff things that don’t.
how tasty is your tears! :p
don't worry, if they nerf mines, they will surely buff others like tanks, thors, etc.
But there are no tears, I play protoss. I just don’t want to see awesome stuff nerfed. Why make a unit less useful when you can just give the other side a chance to respond with other units? Don’t break things that work and people like, buff stuff people want to use, but can’t.
On August 27 2013 16:12 samurai80 wrote: Seeing how TvZ can be hard for Z now makes Scarlett's performance at WCS world finals even more impressive. Probably even more impressive than what did Stephano at his best.
Its up there for sure. I don't even know how she does it really and it seems other Zergs have no clue as well
Scarlett has some great ling/baneling control, to be honest.
Patch is ok i think but there is one Problem for Terran Player then: When Overseer is so fast, wassup with Cloak Banshees? They have no chance to get away then, so they must Buff the Speed of em too.
On August 27 2013 21:57 DoubleReed wrote: If Overseers are that fast then contaminate might be way more viable to add into your strats. Your overseer is way less likely to die.
Basically I want to see a game where Terran cannot manage to get 3/3 because of contaminate.
if we get enough gas to do that upgrade despite of non stop drops oh well, I'm patient to wait for more balance changes
On August 27 2013 21:56 Plansix wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:47 SsDrKosS wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:09 Existor wrote: Best change to overseer against Widow Mines will be next thing:
Overseers on attack-move will stop at any widow mine at sight-range, when they (Overseers) found it.
how about reducing contaminate cost to 25 but only to be working on units? :p
Come on blizzard, just nerf WM.
Don’t listen to them Blizzard. Don’t do it to terran again. Don’t nerf things that work, buff things that don’t.
how tasty is your tears! :p
don't worry, if they nerf mines, they will surely buff others like tanks, thors, etc.
But there are no tears, I play protoss. I just don’t want to see awesome stuff nerfed. Why make a unit less useful when you can just give the other side a chance to respond with other units? Don’t break things that work and people like, buff stuff people want to use, but can’t.
yeah... they are AWE-some...
so.... you want to give zerg... infestor re-buff? nydus buff? overlord drop buff? burrow roach buff? hydra buff?
I can make tons of list but I think this will affect you as well
On August 27 2013 22:24 Huragius wrote: Can vikings catch anything at all now ? O_o
overlords and colossus!!! :p I know yeah. what happened to its 'air-superioty'?
On August 27 2013 21:57 DoubleReed wrote: If Overseers are that fast then contaminate might be way more viable to add into your strats. Your overseer is way less likely to die.
Basically I want to see a game where Terran cannot manage to get 3/3 because of contaminate.
if we get enough gas to do that upgrade despite of non stop drops oh well, I'm patient to wait for more balance changes
On August 27 2013 21:56 Plansix wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:47 SsDrKosS wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:09 Existor wrote: Best change to overseer against Widow Mines will be next thing:
Overseers on attack-move will stop at any widow mine at sight-range, when they (Overseers) found it.
how about reducing contaminate cost to 25 but only to be working on units? :p
Come on blizzard, just nerf WM.
Don’t listen to them Blizzard. Don’t do it to terran again. Don’t nerf things that work, buff things that don’t.
how tasty is your tears! :p
don't worry, if they nerf mines, they will surely buff others like tanks, thors, etc.
But there are no tears, I play protoss. I just don’t want to see awesome stuff nerfed. Why make a unit less useful when you can just give the other side a chance to respond with other units? Don’t break things that work and people like, buff stuff people want to use, but can’t.
I don't get this buff everything, nerfing is bad thing. Sometimes something is too strong and making it weaker makes fun stuff viable. If something (the immortal/viper) is so incredibly strong vs a fun play style (mech) then nerfing it would make the fun playstyle viable. You can't just keep buffing everything until every unit does an insane amount of damage and the battle is over in two seconds. Some stuff needs to be kept in check. Nerfs happen all the time in LOL/DOTA2 and they are good for the game.
In SC2's case nerfs did kill more fun than anything. Well, so did buffs though :S
On August 27 2013 21:57 DoubleReed wrote: If Overseers are that fast then contaminate might be way more viable to add into your strats. Your overseer is way less likely to die.
Basically I want to see a game where Terran cannot manage to get 3/3 because of contaminate.
if we get enough gas to do that upgrade despite of non stop drops oh well, I'm patient to wait for more balance changes
On August 27 2013 21:56 Plansix wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:47 SsDrKosS wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:09 Existor wrote: Best change to overseer against Widow Mines will be next thing:
Overseers on attack-move will stop at any widow mine at sight-range, when they (Overseers) found it.
how about reducing contaminate cost to 25 but only to be working on units? :p
Come on blizzard, just nerf WM.
Don’t listen to them Blizzard. Don’t do it to terran again. Don’t nerf things that work, buff things that don’t.
how tasty is your tears! :p
don't worry, if they nerf mines, they will surely buff others like tanks, thors, etc.
But there are no tears, I play protoss. I just don’t want to see awesome stuff nerfed. Why make a unit less useful when you can just give the other side a chance to respond with other units? Don’t break things that work and people like, buff stuff people want to use, but can’t.
I don't get this buff everything, nerfing is bad thing. Sometimes something is too strong and making it weaker makes fun stuff viable. If something (the immortal/viper) is so incredibly strong vs a fun play style (mech) then nerfing it would make the fun playstyle viable. You can't just keep buffing everything until every unit does an insane amount of damage and the battle is over in two seconds. Some stuff needs to be kept in check. Nerfs happen all the time in LOL/DOTA2 and they are good for the game.
The hellbat was nerfed and it has almost completely left all terran builds, because what made it useful is not longer present. It will likely need to be buffed in some way for people to start using it again.
Nerfing is bad because it:
• Punishes players for getting good with a specific unit • Waters down the match ups • Removes units from meta game because what made them good is not longer useful • Gives the nerfed race the feeling that they were abusing the game and their wins were not legitimate, while also giving fuel to the people that complained about the unit
Nerfing and makes the game less fun. The best games had/have totally broken stuff that is awesome because everyone has it, Dota 2 and BW. SC2 needs more powerful, broken shit that makes the game awesome, not less.
Note: Recent nerfs in Dota 2 are normally super minor, like reduced range on one ability as one level. They are so minor you barely notice. It is nothing like SC2, where they just drop the base damage of a unit to the point where it does not kill stuff.
On August 27 2013 21:57 DoubleReed wrote: If Overseers are that fast then contaminate might be way more viable to add into your strats. Your overseer is way less likely to die.
Basically I want to see a game where Terran cannot manage to get 3/3 because of contaminate.
if we get enough gas to do that upgrade despite of non stop drops oh well, I'm patient to wait for more balance changes
On August 27 2013 21:56 Plansix wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:47 SsDrKosS wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:09 Existor wrote: Best change to overseer against Widow Mines will be next thing:
Overseers on attack-move will stop at any widow mine at sight-range, when they (Overseers) found it.
how about reducing contaminate cost to 25 but only to be working on units? :p
Come on blizzard, just nerf WM.
Don’t listen to them Blizzard. Don’t do it to terran again. Don’t nerf things that work, buff things that don’t.
how tasty is your tears! :p
don't worry, if they nerf mines, they will surely buff others like tanks, thors, etc.
But there are no tears, I play protoss. I just don’t want to see awesome stuff nerfed. Why make a unit less useful when you can just give the other side a chance to respond with other units? Don’t break things that work and people like, buff stuff people want to use, but can’t.
I don't get this buff everything, nerfing is bad thing. Sometimes something is too strong and making it weaker makes fun stuff viable. If something (the immortal/viper) is so incredibly strong vs a fun play style (mech) then nerfing it would make the fun playstyle viable. You can't just keep buffing everything until every unit does an insane amount of damage and the battle is over in two seconds. Some stuff needs to be kept in check. Nerfs happen all the time in LOL/DOTA2 and they are good for the game.
Note: Recent nerfs in Dota 2 are normally super minor, like reduced range on one ability as one level. They are so minor you barely notice. It is nothing like SC2, where they just drop the base damage of a unit to the point where it does not kill stuff.
I'm calling you out. When did the base damage of unit ever get lowered to the point of the unit being useless? And obviously, i'm talking about in main play and not beta where everything is variable.
On August 27 2013 21:57 DoubleReed wrote: If Overseers are that fast then contaminate might be way more viable to add into your strats. Your overseer is way less likely to die.
Basically I want to see a game where Terran cannot manage to get 3/3 because of contaminate.
if we get enough gas to do that upgrade despite of non stop drops oh well, I'm patient to wait for more balance changes
On August 27 2013 21:56 Plansix wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:47 SsDrKosS wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:09 Existor wrote: Best change to overseer against Widow Mines will be next thing:
Overseers on attack-move will stop at any widow mine at sight-range, when they (Overseers) found it.
how about reducing contaminate cost to 25 but only to be working on units? :p
Come on blizzard, just nerf WM.
Don’t listen to them Blizzard. Don’t do it to terran again. Don’t nerf things that work, buff things that don’t.
how tasty is your tears! :p
don't worry, if they nerf mines, they will surely buff others like tanks, thors, etc.
But there are no tears, I play protoss. I just don’t want to see awesome stuff nerfed. Why make a unit less useful when you can just give the other side a chance to respond with other units? Don’t break things that work and people like, buff stuff people want to use, but can’t.
I don't get this buff everything, nerfing is bad thing. Sometimes something is too strong and making it weaker makes fun stuff viable. If something (the immortal/viper) is so incredibly strong vs a fun play style (mech) then nerfing it would make the fun playstyle viable. You can't just keep buffing everything until every unit does an insane amount of damage and the battle is over in two seconds. Some stuff needs to be kept in check. Nerfs happen all the time in LOL/DOTA2 and they are good for the game.
Note: Recent nerfs in Dota 2 are normally super minor, like reduced range on one ability as one level. They are so minor you barely notice. It is nothing like SC2, where they just drop the base damage of a unit to the point where it does not kill stuff.
I'm calling you out. When did the base damage of unit ever get lowered to the point of the unit being useless? And obviously, i'm talking about in main play and not beta where everything is variable.
On August 27 2013 22:23 BadLikeHell wrote: Patch is ok i think but there is one Problem for Terran Player then: When Overseer is so fast, wassup with Cloak Banshees? They have no chance to get away then, so they must Buff the Speed of em too.
On August 27 2013 21:57 DoubleReed wrote: If Overseers are that fast then contaminate might be way more viable to add into your strats. Your overseer is way less likely to die.
Basically I want to see a game where Terran cannot manage to get 3/3 because of contaminate.
if we get enough gas to do that upgrade despite of non stop drops oh well, I'm patient to wait for more balance changes
On August 27 2013 21:56 Plansix wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:47 SsDrKosS wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:09 Existor wrote: Best change to overseer against Widow Mines will be next thing:
Overseers on attack-move will stop at any widow mine at sight-range, when they (Overseers) found it.
how about reducing contaminate cost to 25 but only to be working on units? :p
Come on blizzard, just nerf WM.
Don’t listen to them Blizzard. Don’t do it to terran again. Don’t nerf things that work, buff things that don’t.
how tasty is your tears! :p
don't worry, if they nerf mines, they will surely buff others like tanks, thors, etc.
But there are no tears, I play protoss. I just don’t want to see awesome stuff nerfed. Why make a unit less useful when you can just give the other side a chance to respond with other units? Don’t break things that work and people like, buff stuff people want to use, but can’t.
I don't get this buff everything, nerfing is bad thing. Sometimes something is too strong and making it weaker makes fun stuff viable. If something (the immortal/viper) is so incredibly strong vs a fun play style (mech) then nerfing it would make the fun playstyle viable. You can't just keep buffing everything until every unit does an insane amount of damage and the battle is over in two seconds. Some stuff needs to be kept in check. Nerfs happen all the time in LOL/DOTA2 and they are good for the game.
Note: Recent nerfs in Dota 2 are normally super minor, like reduced range on one ability as one level. They are so minor you barely notice. It is nothing like SC2, where they just drop the base damage of a unit to the point where it does not kill stuff.
I'm calling you out. When did the base damage of unit ever get lowered to the point of the unit being useless? And obviously, i'm talking about in main play and not beta where everything is variable.
Siege tanks.
You mean the unit that was used in every single TvT and TvZ throughout all of WoL and in like half a year of 1-1-1 against Protoss was useless?
On August 27 2013 21:57 DoubleReed wrote: If Overseers are that fast then contaminate might be way more viable to add into your strats. Your overseer is way less likely to die.
Basically I want to see a game where Terran cannot manage to get 3/3 because of contaminate.
if we get enough gas to do that upgrade despite of non stop drops oh well, I'm patient to wait for more balance changes
On August 27 2013 21:56 Plansix wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:47 SsDrKosS wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:09 Existor wrote: Best change to overseer against Widow Mines will be next thing:
Overseers on attack-move will stop at any widow mine at sight-range, when they (Overseers) found it.
how about reducing contaminate cost to 25 but only to be working on units? :p
Come on blizzard, just nerf WM.
Don’t listen to them Blizzard. Don’t do it to terran again. Don’t nerf things that work, buff things that don’t.
how tasty is your tears! :p
don't worry, if they nerf mines, they will surely buff others like tanks, thors, etc.
But there are no tears, I play protoss. I just don’t want to see awesome stuff nerfed. Why make a unit less useful when you can just give the other side a chance to respond with other units? Don’t break things that work and people like, buff stuff people want to use, but can’t.
I don't get this buff everything, nerfing is bad thing. Sometimes something is too strong and making it weaker makes fun stuff viable. If something (the immortal/viper) is so incredibly strong vs a fun play style (mech) then nerfing it would make the fun playstyle viable. You can't just keep buffing everything until every unit does an insane amount of damage and the battle is over in two seconds. Some stuff needs to be kept in check. Nerfs happen all the time in LOL/DOTA2 and they are good for the game.
Note: Recent nerfs in Dota 2 are normally super minor, like reduced range on one ability as one level. They are so minor you barely notice. It is nothing like SC2, where they just drop the base damage of a unit to the point where it does not kill stuff.
I'm calling you out. When did the base damage of unit ever get lowered to the point of the unit being useless? And obviously, i'm talking about in main play and not beta where everything is variable.
Siege tanks.
You mean the unit that was used in every single TvT and TvZ throughout all of WoL and in like half a year of 1-1-1 against Protoss was useless?
On August 27 2013 21:57 DoubleReed wrote: If Overseers are that fast then contaminate might be way more viable to add into your strats. Your overseer is way less likely to die.
Basically I want to see a game where Terran cannot manage to get 3/3 because of contaminate.
if we get enough gas to do that upgrade despite of non stop drops oh well, I'm patient to wait for more balance changes
On August 27 2013 21:56 Plansix wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:47 SsDrKosS wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:09 Existor wrote: Best change to overseer against Widow Mines will be next thing:
Overseers on attack-move will stop at any widow mine at sight-range, when they (Overseers) found it.
how about reducing contaminate cost to 25 but only to be working on units? :p
Come on blizzard, just nerf WM.
Don’t listen to them Blizzard. Don’t do it to terran again. Don’t nerf things that work, buff things that don’t.
how tasty is your tears! :p
don't worry, if they nerf mines, they will surely buff others like tanks, thors, etc.
But there are no tears, I play protoss. I just don’t want to see awesome stuff nerfed. Why make a unit less useful when you can just give the other side a chance to respond with other units? Don’t break things that work and people like, buff stuff people want to use, but can’t.
I don't get this buff everything, nerfing is bad thing. Sometimes something is too strong and making it weaker makes fun stuff viable. If something (the immortal/viper) is so incredibly strong vs a fun play style (mech) then nerfing it would make the fun playstyle viable. You can't just keep buffing everything until every unit does an insane amount of damage and the battle is over in two seconds. Some stuff needs to be kept in check. Nerfs happen all the time in LOL/DOTA2 and they are good for the game.
Note: Recent nerfs in Dota 2 are normally super minor, like reduced range on one ability as one level. They are so minor you barely notice. It is nothing like SC2, where they just drop the base damage of a unit to the point where it does not kill stuff.
I'm calling you out. When did the base damage of unit ever get lowered to the point of the unit being useless? And obviously, i'm talking about in main play and not beta where everything is variable.
Siege tanks.
It sure did make them less useful and punchy. Hellbats got pretty slapped down, but that is a recent nerf so I don’t think it counts. Blue flame hellions got cut down for a while, but came back into the meta game without the blue flame upgrade. Damage nerfs are bad in general. But other nerfs have taken units right out of the meta game, like the Thor being buffed and nerfed in TvP(though that was in the era of super tiny maps and the thor was kinda fucked up on those tiny maps).
On August 27 2013 21:39 xyzz wrote: I'll come into this thread once every three months to remind you that Protoss is stillby far the least succesful race in the pro scene in HoTS, but hey, by all means, let's all worry about the unbearable situation with Zerg and get that race to win some more tournaments so Terran doesn't get it all.
On August 27 2013 22:55 Big J wrote: You mean the unit that was used in every single TvT and TvZ throughout all of WoL and in like half a year of 1-1-1 against Protoss was useless?
Not surprising really, because people look at high tech units when they think of power.
The problem is if you ever lose a big fight as protoss you basically lose since it's hard to regain a formidable army, where as terran and zerg are just going to get some battle ready lings/roaches or whatever and rush your base, while terran will have another army of marine/marauder ready to go.
Protoss is fine and dandy in BO1 or even BO3 but once their bag of tricks is up, they really struggle in longer series which is why there are few successful outside of proleague and stuff like that.
On August 27 2013 21:57 DoubleReed wrote: If Overseers are that fast then contaminate might be way more viable to add into your strats. Your overseer is way less likely to die.
Basically I want to see a game where Terran cannot manage to get 3/3 because of contaminate.
if we get enough gas to do that upgrade despite of non stop drops oh well, I'm patient to wait for more balance changes
On August 27 2013 21:56 Plansix wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:47 SsDrKosS wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:09 Existor wrote: Best change to overseer against Widow Mines will be next thing:
Overseers on attack-move will stop at any widow mine at sight-range, when they (Overseers) found it.
how about reducing contaminate cost to 25 but only to be working on units? :p
Come on blizzard, just nerf WM.
Don’t listen to them Blizzard. Don’t do it to terran again. Don’t nerf things that work, buff things that don’t.
how tasty is your tears! :p
don't worry, if they nerf mines, they will surely buff others like tanks, thors, etc.
But there are no tears, I play protoss. I just don’t want to see awesome stuff nerfed. Why make a unit less useful when you can just give the other side a chance to respond with other units? Don’t break things that work and people like, buff stuff people want to use, but can’t.
I don't get this buff everything, nerfing is bad thing. Sometimes something is too strong and making it weaker makes fun stuff viable. If something (the immortal/viper) is so incredibly strong vs a fun play style (mech) then nerfing it would make the fun playstyle viable. You can't just keep buffing everything until every unit does an insane amount of damage and the battle is over in two seconds. Some stuff needs to be kept in check. Nerfs happen all the time in LOL/DOTA2 and they are good for the game.
Note: Recent nerfs in Dota 2 are normally super minor, like reduced range on one ability as one level. They are so minor you barely notice. It is nothing like SC2, where they just drop the base damage of a unit to the point where it does not kill stuff.
I'm calling you out. When did the base damage of unit ever get lowered to the point of the unit being useless? And obviously, i'm talking about in main play and not beta where everything is variable.
Siege tanks.
It sure did make them less useful and punchy. Hellbats got pretty slapped down, but that is a recent nerf so I don’t think it counts. Blue flame hellions got cut down for a while, but came back into the meta game without the blue flame upgrade. Damage nerfs are bad in general. But other nerfs have taken units right out of the meta game, like the Thor being buffed and nerfed in TvP(though that was in the era of super tiny maps and the thor was kinda fucked up on those tiny maps).
The thor buff was the removal of energy, right ? We have to thank Jinro for that nerf, not being able to feedback them while stunning immortals was awesome.
On August 27 2013 21:57 DoubleReed wrote: If Overseers are that fast then contaminate might be way more viable to add into your strats. Your overseer is way less likely to die.
Basically I want to see a game where Terran cannot manage to get 3/3 because of contaminate.
if we get enough gas to do that upgrade despite of non stop drops oh well, I'm patient to wait for more balance changes
On August 27 2013 21:56 Plansix wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:47 SsDrKosS wrote: [quote] how about reducing contaminate cost to 25 but only to be working on units? :p
Come on blizzard, just nerf WM.
Don’t listen to them Blizzard. Don’t do it to terran again. Don’t nerf things that work, buff things that don’t.
how tasty is your tears! :p
don't worry, if they nerf mines, they will surely buff others like tanks, thors, etc.
But there are no tears, I play protoss. I just don’t want to see awesome stuff nerfed. Why make a unit less useful when you can just give the other side a chance to respond with other units? Don’t break things that work and people like, buff stuff people want to use, but can’t.
I don't get this buff everything, nerfing is bad thing. Sometimes something is too strong and making it weaker makes fun stuff viable. If something (the immortal/viper) is so incredibly strong vs a fun play style (mech) then nerfing it would make the fun playstyle viable. You can't just keep buffing everything until every unit does an insane amount of damage and the battle is over in two seconds. Some stuff needs to be kept in check. Nerfs happen all the time in LOL/DOTA2 and they are good for the game.
Note: Recent nerfs in Dota 2 are normally super minor, like reduced range on one ability as one level. They are so minor you barely notice. It is nothing like SC2, where they just drop the base damage of a unit to the point where it does not kill stuff.
I'm calling you out. When did the base damage of unit ever get lowered to the point of the unit being useless? And obviously, i'm talking about in main play and not beta where everything is variable.
Siege tanks.
It sure did make them less useful and punchy. Hellbats got pretty slapped down, but that is a recent nerf so I don’t think it counts. Blue flame hellions got cut down for a while, but came back into the meta game without the blue flame upgrade. Damage nerfs are bad in general. But other nerfs have taken units right out of the meta game, like the Thor being buffed and nerfed in TvP(though that was in the era of super tiny maps and the thor was kinda fucked up on those tiny maps).
The thor buff was the removal of energy, right ? We have to thank Jinro for that nerf, not being able to feedback them while stunning immortals was awesome.
It was total bullshit on those small maps where it never got beyond 2 bases. It was a marine/thor blob where the zealots would never get to the thors and the thors would just stun each immortal with that stupid cannon while also being repaired. There was not way to get HTs out and have anything that even resembled a reasonable army. You basically needed 2 immortals for every thor and to hope that the marines didn’t just run you over. It is different on these larger maps, but back then and without the nexus cannon, it was pretty bullshit.
On August 27 2013 16:12 samurai80 wrote: Seeing how TvZ can be hard for Z now makes Scarlett's performance at WCS world finals even more impressive. Probably even more impressive than what did Stephano at his best.
Its up there for sure. I don't even know how she does it really and it seems other Zergs have no clue as well
That hot sticky creep spread, baby
Did you see Jaedong's creep spread in the finals? It was outrageously good. But still no match for terran. It proved that really good 4M beats muta ling bane completely, even on creep.
In fact, I was really impressed by the speed of Jaedong's creep spread, and was surprised that I didn't even notice commentators mentioning it at all. That made the 4M attack even more frustrating TBH.
Yeah it was kind of insane how amazing that Creep spread was and Bomber decided to fuck it and attack on creep. It didn't even matter.
JD was pushing creep with several tumors on 5 different fronts.
But you don't let a terran 3 CC 2 engie bay and survive long enough to brag about creep spread.
I don't get why blizzard thinks zerg is weak in lategame. To me it seems like the problem is in the midgame and if zerg gets to lategame with good economy they have the advantige then and it's terrans job to try to destroy zerg economy before ultras and 3-3 upgrades for zerg. And I have seen a lot of games from Flash and Innovation who wins TvZ's just because zerg gets sloppy and loses all their mutas to mismicro in midgame and then they get multidropped and they can't defend everywhere and loses eco before spores+spines and ultras.
On August 27 2013 21:57 DoubleReed wrote: If Overseers are that fast then contaminate might be way more viable to add into your strats. Your overseer is way less likely to die.
Basically I want to see a game where Terran cannot manage to get 3/3 because of contaminate.
if we get enough gas to do that upgrade despite of non stop drops oh well, I'm patient to wait for more balance changes
On August 27 2013 21:56 Plansix wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:47 SsDrKosS wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:09 Existor wrote: Best change to overseer against Widow Mines will be next thing:
Overseers on attack-move will stop at any widow mine at sight-range, when they (Overseers) found it.
how about reducing contaminate cost to 25 but only to be working on units? :p
Come on blizzard, just nerf WM.
Don’t listen to them Blizzard. Don’t do it to terran again. Don’t nerf things that work, buff things that don’t.
how tasty is your tears! :p
don't worry, if they nerf mines, they will surely buff others like tanks, thors, etc.
But there are no tears, I play protoss. I just don’t want to see awesome stuff nerfed. Why make a unit less useful when you can just give the other side a chance to respond with other units? Don’t break things that work and people like, buff stuff people want to use, but can’t.
I don't get this buff everything, nerfing is bad thing. Sometimes something is too strong and making it weaker makes fun stuff viable. If something (the immortal/viper) is so incredibly strong vs a fun play style (mech) then nerfing it would make the fun playstyle viable. You can't just keep buffing everything until every unit does an insane amount of damage and the battle is over in two seconds. Some stuff needs to be kept in check. Nerfs happen all the time in LOL/DOTA2 and they are good for the game.
Note: Recent nerfs in Dota 2 are normally super minor, like reduced range on one ability as one level. They are so minor you barely notice. It is nothing like SC2, where they just drop the base damage of a unit to the point where it does not kill stuff.
I'm calling you out. When did the base damage of unit ever get lowered to the point of the unit being useless? And obviously, i'm talking about in main play and not beta where everything is variable.
Siege tanks.
It sure did make them less useful and punchy. Hellbats got pretty slapped down, but that is a recent nerf so I don’t think it counts. Blue flame hellions got cut down for a while, but came back into the meta game without the blue flame upgrade. Damage nerfs are bad in general. But other nerfs have taken units right out of the meta game, like the Thor being buffed and nerfed in TvP(though that was in the era of super tiny maps and the thor was kinda fucked up on those tiny maps).
I'm sorry, but BFH two shotting workers was pretty ****ing broken. You sink in 200 minerals and get 6-8 drone kills easy.
On August 27 2013 21:57 DoubleReed wrote: If Overseers are that fast then contaminate might be way more viable to add into your strats. Your overseer is way less likely to die.
Basically I want to see a game where Terran cannot manage to get 3/3 because of contaminate.
if we get enough gas to do that upgrade despite of non stop drops oh well, I'm patient to wait for more balance changes
On August 27 2013 21:56 Plansix wrote:
On August 27 2013 21:47 SsDrKosS wrote: [quote] how about reducing contaminate cost to 25 but only to be working on units? :p
Come on blizzard, just nerf WM.
Don’t listen to them Blizzard. Don’t do it to terran again. Don’t nerf things that work, buff things that don’t.
how tasty is your tears! :p
don't worry, if they nerf mines, they will surely buff others like tanks, thors, etc.
But there are no tears, I play protoss. I just don’t want to see awesome stuff nerfed. Why make a unit less useful when you can just give the other side a chance to respond with other units? Don’t break things that work and people like, buff stuff people want to use, but can’t.
I don't get this buff everything, nerfing is bad thing. Sometimes something is too strong and making it weaker makes fun stuff viable. If something (the immortal/viper) is so incredibly strong vs a fun play style (mech) then nerfing it would make the fun playstyle viable. You can't just keep buffing everything until every unit does an insane amount of damage and the battle is over in two seconds. Some stuff needs to be kept in check. Nerfs happen all the time in LOL/DOTA2 and they are good for the game.
Note: Recent nerfs in Dota 2 are normally super minor, like reduced range on one ability as one level. They are so minor you barely notice. It is nothing like SC2, where they just drop the base damage of a unit to the point where it does not kill stuff.
I'm calling you out. When did the base damage of unit ever get lowered to the point of the unit being useless? And obviously, i'm talking about in main play and not beta where everything is variable.
Siege tanks.
It sure did make them less useful and punchy. Hellbats got pretty slapped down, but that is a recent nerf so I don’t think it counts. Blue flame hellions got cut down for a while, but came back into the meta game without the blue flame upgrade. Damage nerfs are bad in general. But other nerfs have taken units right out of the meta game, like the Thor being buffed and nerfed in TvP(though that was in the era of super tiny maps and the thor was kinda fucked up on those tiny maps).
I'm sorry, but BFH two shotting workers was pretty ****ing broken. You sink in 200 minerals and get 6-8 drone kills easy.
Oh I agree. 2 shooting workers with AOEs is bad, end of story. But after they nerfed it, they should have also lowered the cost of the upgrade or something to keep it in line. That is my problem. If you make something less valuable, make it cheaper too. Otherwise you just make the upgrade over all less useful so it won’t be used as much, which hurts the game as a whole.
On August 27 2013 04:30 Bagi wrote: I don't mind the overseer buff. But its really nothing at all.
The mech buff they had in mind wasn't ideal, but it was something. Something that could possibly have terran players experiment with different builds besides MMM. But I guess making the game interesting isn't a priority, lets just make every terran player go through the exact same motions every game like they have for months now.
I loved watching terran games in WoL, even when they were getting raped by BL/infestor. I root against terran players in HOTS, every game is just MMM spam.
The buff is good. My problem #1 right now is middle to late game ZvT. Mines are just so annoying and mechanically hard to clear that you need to be about 30-40 apm above the terran player to win. I agree that it may not be enough and I would prefer to see a simple widow mine nerf, but on the side of zerg buffs I think this is optimal.
I honestly think the issue lies with it being harder for terran to lose than zerg to lose. Zerg seems to get punished harder for mismicro/losing battles than terran does. I would actually have liked to see another small change: Like what about reducing baneling morph time by a couple of seconds? Often times it seems that terran can win the game after a battle as he can kill the morphin banelings.
Saw this suggestion on r/starcraft too, and really like it! It is a very subtle change, it doesn't really do anything in ZvZ or ZvP, and could help just that little bit, and prevent Terrans from progressing (with their reinforcements) too quickly.
I'd also like to see 3/3 being available at infestation pit level. Now a large part of the game is fought 2/2 vs. 3/3, and that makes the Z army quite weak - it takes very long before you can afford the IP and Hive, and kinda takes forever - Terran only needs to drop an armory for 2/2 and 3/3, whereas Z needs lair for 2/2, the IP and then Hive for 3/3. Terran should be ahead in upgrades anyway, and I don't mind that there's a timing window if the T is good, but it shouldn't be as long as it is now.
As for widow mines and micro, I'd like to see that unborrowed mines get a higher attack priority than marines, so sniping them gets a little easier - that will even up the skill level considerably.
On August 27 2013 04:30 Bagi wrote: I don't mind the overseer buff. But its really nothing at all.
The mech buff they had in mind wasn't ideal, but it was something. Something that could possibly have terran players experiment with different builds besides MMM. But I guess making the game interesting isn't a priority, lets just make every terran player go through the exact same motions every game like they have for months now.
I loved watching terran games in WoL, even when they were getting raped by BL/infestor. I root against terran players in HOTS, every game is just MMM spam.
The buff is good. My problem #1 right now is middle to late game ZvT. Mines are just so annoying and mechanically hard to clear that you need to be about 30-40 apm above the terran player to win. I agree that it may not be enough and I would prefer to see a simple widow mine nerf, but on the side of zerg buffs I think this is optimal.
I honestly think the issue lies with it being harder for terran to lose than zerg to lose. Zerg seems to get punished harder for mismicro/losing battles than terran does. I would actually have liked to see another small change: Like what about reducing baneling morph time by a couple of seconds? Often times it seems that terran can win the game after a battle as he can kill the morphin banelings.
Saw this suggestion on r/starcraft too, and really like it! It is a very subtle change, it doesn't really do anything in ZvZ or ZvP, and could help just that little bit, and prevent Terrans from progressing (with their reinforcements) too quickly.
I'd also like to see 3/3 being available at infestation pit level. Now a large part of the game is fought 2/2 vs. 3/3, and that makes the Z army quite weak - it takes very long before you can afford the IP and Hive, and kinda takes forever - Terran only needs to drop an armory for 2/2 and 3/3, whereas Z needs lair for 2/2, the IP and then Hive for 3/3. Terran should be ahead in upgrades anyway, and I don't mind that there's a timing window if the T is good, but it shouldn't be as long as it is now.
As for widow mines and micro, I'd like to see that unborrowed mines get a higher attack priority than marines, so sniping them gets a little easier - that will even up the skill level considerably.
These suggestions just make zerg fight for a prolonged time at lair level even more. Hive transitions and changing unit compositions and the timings that come with it are interesting. I'd rather see hive units/tech get buffed or stuff to get there then just give zerg and buffs at lair level. Zerg is already fine at lair often even getting slightly ahead, it's just that the hive transition is super hard and/or not effective enough in ZvT now. Small infestor/adrenal glands/viper buff would be nicer I think.
On August 27 2013 13:24 VayneAuthority wrote: mech is very viable vs protoss on maps like akilon wastes. In fact, I see more mech on that map then non-mech. If they gave terran that dual upgrades on armories, every protoss would have to veto akilon.
Please dude. A Protoss army can comfortably a-move into a a Siege line.
I'll come into this thread once every three months to remind you that Protoss is stillby far the least succesful race in the pro scene in HoTS, but hey, by all means, let's all worry about the unbearable situation with Zerg and get that race to win some more tournaments so Terran doesn't get it all.
The reason that Protoss is less succesful than Zerg and Terran is because the race is poorly designed, and far more reliant on gimmicks which makes it much easier to figure out how to beat Protoss players. Just look at a player like Naniwa.
Protoss units in general scale horribly with micro, whereas the micro potiential for Marine/Medivac is almost endless.
On August 27 2013 04:21 USvBleakill wrote: A change that doesnt hurt anybody but it wont fix tvz because the problem is not "late" game its the time were Zerg is trying to get hive and Terran bio fights with 3/3 vs muta/ling. That timing that Bomber used in every game at WCS is a problem.
Kind of surprised that there are neither the MSC or Tanks mentioned. The Upgrades are not the main problem of Mech its that the SiegTank sucks and you have an absolute imobile army that cant even win streight up fight against the right unit composition.
exactly.
typical blizzard, bandaid fixes and never address the core issues.
On August 27 2013 04:21 USvBleakill wrote: A change that doesnt hurt anybody but it wont fix tvz because the problem is not "late" game its the time were Zerg is trying to get hive and Terran bio fights with 3/3 vs muta/ling. That timing that Bomber used in every game at WCS is a problem.
Kind of surprised that there are neither the MSC or Tanks mentioned. The Upgrades are not the main problem of Mech its that the SiegTank sucks and you have an absolute imobile army that cant even win streight up fight against the right unit composition.
exactly.
typical blizzard, bandaid fixes and never address the core issues.
Translation: They did not buff the thing that I feel is the problem with the game. Behold has I point to other forum posts that agree with me.
On August 27 2013 04:21 USvBleakill wrote: A change that doesnt hurt anybody but it wont fix tvz because the problem is not "late" game its the time were Zerg is trying to get hive and Terran bio fights with 3/3 vs muta/ling. That timing that Bomber used in every game at WCS is a problem.
Kind of surprised that there are neither the MSC or Tanks mentioned. The Upgrades are not the main problem of Mech its that the SiegTank sucks and you have an absolute imobile army that cant even win streight up fight against the right unit composition.
exactly.
typical blizzard, bandaid fixes and never address the core issues.
Translation: They did not buff the thing that I feel is the problem with the game. Behold has I point to other forum posts that agree with me.
nice try. wrong though.
overseer speed buff is not the core of the issue with tvz.
and mech not being viable has nothing to do with upgrades.
On August 27 2013 04:21 USvBleakill wrote: A change that doesnt hurt anybody but it wont fix tvz because the problem is not "late" game its the time were Zerg is trying to get hive and Terran bio fights with 3/3 vs muta/ling. That timing that Bomber used in every game at WCS is a problem.
Kind of surprised that there are neither the MSC or Tanks mentioned. The Upgrades are not the main problem of Mech its that the SiegTank sucks and you have an absolute imobile army that cant even win streight up fight against the right unit composition.
exactly.
typical blizzard, bandaid fixes and never address the core issues.
Translation: They did not buff the thing that I feel is the problem with the game. Behold has I point to other forum posts that agree with me.
nice try. wrong though.
overseer speed buff is not the core of the issue with tvz.
and mech not being viable has nothing to do with upgrades.
nice try though.
Right, the things you think are "core issues", but Blizzard does not agree. Just because you say "core issues" does not make your point of view fact.
On August 27 2013 04:21 USvBleakill wrote: A change that doesnt hurt anybody but it wont fix tvz because the problem is not "late" game its the time were Zerg is trying to get hive and Terran bio fights with 3/3 vs muta/ling. That timing that Bomber used in every game at WCS is a problem.
Kind of surprised that there are neither the MSC or Tanks mentioned. The Upgrades are not the main problem of Mech its that the SiegTank sucks and you have an absolute imobile army that cant even win streight up fight against the right unit composition.
exactly.
typical blizzard, bandaid fixes and never address the core issues.
Translation: They did not buff the thing that I feel is the problem with the game. Behold has I point to other forum posts that agree with me.
nice try. wrong though.
overseer speed buff is not the core of the issue with tvz.
and mech not being viable has nothing to do with upgrades.
nice try though.
Right, the things you think are "core issues", but Blizzard does not agree. Just because you say "core issues" does not make your point of view fact.
and how does your original post bring anything relevant but attack me?
of course it's not a fact, but blizzard is wrong and most people that know what they are talking about would agree.
it doesn't take rocket science to know overseer speed buff and upgrades are not core issues?
you really believe upgrades were a core issue for mech not being relevant?
On August 27 2013 04:21 USvBleakill wrote: A change that doesnt hurt anybody but it wont fix tvz because the problem is not "late" game its the time were Zerg is trying to get hive and Terran bio fights with 3/3 vs muta/ling. That timing that Bomber used in every game at WCS is a problem.
Kind of surprised that there are neither the MSC or Tanks mentioned. The Upgrades are not the main problem of Mech its that the SiegTank sucks and you have an absolute imobile army that cant even win streight up fight against the right unit composition.
exactly.
typical blizzard, bandaid fixes and never address the core issues.
Translation: They did not buff the thing that I feel is the problem with the game. Behold has I point to other forum posts that agree with me.
nice try. wrong though.
overseer speed buff is not the core of the issue with tvz.
and mech not being viable has nothing to do with upgrades.
nice try though.
Right, the things you think are "core issues", but Blizzard does not agree. Just because you say "core issues" does not make your point of view fact.
and how does your original post bring anything relevant but attack me?
of course it's not a fact, but blizzard is wrong and most people that know what they are talking about would agree.
it doesn't take rocket science to know overseer speed buff and upgrades are not core issues?
you really believe upgrades were a core issue for mech not being relevant?
you're wasting my time haha
You are doing a really good job of describing these core issues you believe are wrong with the game. But I guess just saying "Blizzard is wrong, core issues not addressed" is enough of an argument for some.
On August 27 2013 04:21 USvBleakill wrote: A change that doesnt hurt anybody but it wont fix tvz because the problem is not "late" game its the time were Zerg is trying to get hive and Terran bio fights with 3/3 vs muta/ling. That timing that Bomber used in every game at WCS is a problem.
Kind of surprised that there are neither the MSC or Tanks mentioned. The Upgrades are not the main problem of Mech its that the SiegTank sucks and you have an absolute imobile army that cant even win streight up fight against the right unit composition.
exactly.
typical blizzard, bandaid fixes and never address the core issues.
Translation: They did not buff the thing that I feel is the problem with the game. Behold has I point to other forum posts that agree with me.
nice try. wrong though.
overseer speed buff is not the core of the issue with tvz.
and mech not being viable has nothing to do with upgrades.
nice try though.
Right, the things you think are "core issues", but Blizzard does not agree. Just because you say "core issues" does not make your point of view fact.
and how does your original post bring anything relevant but attack me?
of course it's not a fact, but blizzard is wrong and most people that know what they are talking about would agree.
it doesn't take rocket science to know overseer speed buff and upgrades are not core issues?
you really believe upgrades were a core issue for mech not being relevant?
you're wasting my time haha
You are doing a really good job of describing these core issues you believe are wrong with the game. But I guess just saying "Blizzard is wrong, core issues not addressed" is enough of an argument for some.
perhaps if you asked what I thought was a core issue instead of attacking me, then I would have?
and I'm not here to discuss any balance issues in detail, but frankly it's not like blizzard will do anything correctly.
I just agreed with previous poster, due to his sentiment of him feeling blizz is not addressing core issues.
On August 27 2013 04:21 USvBleakill wrote: A change that doesnt hurt anybody but it wont fix tvz because the problem is not "late" game its the time were Zerg is trying to get hive and Terran bio fights with 3/3 vs muta/ling. That timing that Bomber used in every game at WCS is a problem.
Kind of surprised that there are neither the MSC or Tanks mentioned. The Upgrades are not the main problem of Mech its that the SiegTank sucks and you have an absolute imobile army that cant even win streight up fight against the right unit composition.
exactly.
typical blizzard, bandaid fixes and never address the core issues.
Translation: They did not buff the thing that I feel is the problem with the game. Behold has I point to other forum posts that agree with me.
nice try. wrong though.
overseer speed buff is not the core of the issue with tvz.
and mech not being viable has nothing to do with upgrades.
nice try though.
Right, the things you think are "core issues", but Blizzard does not agree. Just because you say "core issues" does not make your point of view fact.
and how does your original post bring anything relevant but attack me?
of course it's not a fact, but blizzard is wrong and most people that know what they are talking about would agree.
it doesn't take rocket science to know overseer speed buff and upgrades are not core issues?
you really believe upgrades were a core issue for mech not being relevant?
you're wasting my time haha
You are doing a really good job of describing these core issues you believe are wrong with the game. But I guess just saying "Blizzard is wrong, core issues not addressed" is enough of an argument for some.
perhaps if you asked what I thought was a core issue instead of attacking me, then I would have?
and I'm not here to discuss any balance issues in detail, but frankly it's not like blizzard will do anything correctly.
I just agreed with previous poster, due to his sentiment of him feeling blizz is not addressing core issues.
which he is right.
Right, the classic design argument of "Blizzard is bad and is not addressing core issues." Yet you are unwilling to discuss or describe those core issues in any detail. Its almost like we have seen this argument before, over and over. Hate on Blizzard and whine about the patch, but not really provide anything of substance.
On August 27 2013 23:26 mazqo wrote: I don't get why blizzard thinks zerg is weak in lategame. To me it seems like the problem is in the midgame and if zerg gets to lategame with good economy they have the advantige then and it's terrans job to try to destroy zerg economy before ultras and 3-3 upgrades for zerg. And I have seen a lot of games from Flash and Innovation who wins TvZ's just because zerg gets sloppy and loses all their mutas to mismicro in midgame and then they get multidropped and they can't defend everywhere and loses eco before spores+spines and ultras.
yeah i have to second this
i think late game is fine and majority of zergs are dying trying to tech up to the proper things to deal with bio widow mine or they try to just squeeze out maximum amounts of units to get an edge that way but die once 3-3 hits for terran
but like ive said before on this forum, i think zergs are doing it wrong by going muta ling bane and are bound to lose if they choose to play like this against quick 3cc without tanks
On August 27 2013 23:26 mazqo wrote: I don't get why blizzard thinks zerg is weak in lategame. To me it seems like the problem is in the midgame and if zerg gets to lategame with good economy they have the advantige then and it's terrans job to try to destroy zerg economy before ultras and 3-3 upgrades for zerg. And I have seen a lot of games from Flash and Innovation who wins TvZ's just because zerg gets sloppy and loses all their mutas to mismicro in midgame and then they get multidropped and they can't defend everywhere and loses eco before spores+spines and ultras.
yeah i have to second this
i think late game is fine and majority of zergs are dying trying to tech up to the proper things to deal with bio widow mine or they try to just squeeze out maximum amounts of units to get an edge that way but die once 3-3 hits for terran
but like ive said before on this forum, i think zergs are doing it wrong by going muta ling bane and are bound to lose if they choose to play like this against quick 3cc without tanks
What's the answer then? Roach/hydra/infestor? Seems like that has to rely on a timing push of some kind, which is a bit unreliable, and if you don't do enough damage then you just get dropped to death.
Muta into swarmhost seems cool, though there's no coming back from a bad engagement where you lose the hosts.
On August 27 2013 23:26 mazqo wrote: I don't get why blizzard thinks zerg is weak in lategame. To me it seems like the problem is in the midgame and if zerg gets to lategame with good economy they have the advantige then and it's terrans job to try to destroy zerg economy before ultras and 3-3 upgrades for zerg. And I have seen a lot of games from Flash and Innovation who wins TvZ's just because zerg gets sloppy and loses all their mutas to mismicro in midgame and then they get multidropped and they can't defend everywhere and loses eco before spores+spines and ultras.
yeah i have to second this
i think late game is fine and majority of zergs are dying trying to tech up to the proper things to deal with bio widow mine or they try to just squeeze out maximum amounts of units to get an edge that way but die once 3-3 hits for terran
but like ive said before on this forum, i think zergs are doing it wrong by going muta ling bane and are bound to lose if they choose to play like this against quick 3cc without tanks
It didn't seem to me like ultras were that necessary. Just 3/3 and adrenal. They still have to tech up for that though.
On August 28 2013 02:09 Scones wrote: Blizz! Implement this buff and the game will be better:
Hive requires Spire, Infestation pit or Nydus network. Not just infestation pit.
It would open up multiple tier 2 tech paths that all lead to the hive.(I'm not sure why the race wasn't made like this in the first place)
Hmm thats actually a verry verry good idea i think. Make spire and/or infestation req for hive. Not to sure about the hydra denn and nydus though. Now that infestors seem to be "bad" (i think they still good but no pro seems to use them against terran annymore, this contrary to the ling infestor style we had like 1 year ago) the infestation pit becomes a more or less useless building for zerg, having the spire as alternative requirement seems reasonable to me though it will definatly be the end of anny infestor playstyle wich would be kinda sad. Maybe keep the infestation pit as requirement for ultras then instead, else going into ultra might be to easy? This way zerg can unlock at least the 3/3 upgrades and the vipers with going spire into hive. Only drawback is that infestors will completely go out of play vs terran and maybe bliz do not want to give up on them yet.
On August 27 2013 16:12 samurai80 wrote: Seeing how TvZ can be hard for Z now makes Scarlett's performance at WCS world finals even more impressive. Probably even more impressive than what did Stephano at his best.
Its up there for sure. I don't even know how she does it really and it seems other Zergs have no clue as well
That hot sticky creep spread, baby
Did you see Jaedong's creep spread in the finals? It was outrageously good. But still no match for terran. It proved that really good 4M beats muta ling bane completely, even on creep.
In fact, I was really impressed by the speed of Jaedong's creep spread, and was surprised that I didn't even notice commentators mentioning it at all. That made the 4M attack even more frustrating TBH.
Yeah it was kind of insane how amazing that Creep spread was and Bomber decided to fuck it and attack on creep. It didn't even matter.
JD was pushing creep with several tumors on 5 different fronts.
But you don't let a terran 3 CC 2 engie bay and survive long enough to brag about creep spread.
Give tanks upgrade with faster siege time ( unsiege stays at the same speed) and extra dmg against shields (+10 in siege mode without siege 15). I would say they should get the research by stim and combatshield and then we could see more mech .
Raven gets a emp effect on HSM after a Upgrade shields/energy -50 ( port or core I'm not sure).
I don't know too much about high level play, but I do think Mines are really strong. I would like either:
1. Mines burrow but are visible without detection. (siege mode.) - This would give zergs/toss the ability to micro the correct way in attacks instead of hoping you split the lings the right way.
2. Mines behave like Spider Mines from SC1. You plant them and they STAY. (Still recharge though.)
3. If nothing else, at least lower the splash radius.
I have pretty good map awareness against similar skilled terrans, but with Mines it pushes me far too hard, I can only imagine what Pro Zergs must deal with.
On August 28 2013 05:31 Velouria wrote: I don't know too much about high level play, but I do think Mines are really strong. I would like either:
1. Mines burrow but are visible without detection. (siege mode.) - This would give zergs/toss the ability to micro the correct way in attacks instead of hoping you split the lings the right way.
2. Mines behave like Spider Mines from SC1. You plant them and they STAY. (Still recharge though.)
3. If nothing else, at least lower the splash radius.
I have pretty good map awareness against similar skilled terrans, but with Mines it pushes me far too hard, I can only imagine what Pro Zergs must deal with.
The biggest issue with this and the main issue I had as a mech player from the very beginning is that Widow Mines cost supply, so doing this would be a complete and utter way to make sure nobody, especially mech players who actually need the mines would ever use them. If when you planted them they didn't recharge and lost their supply cost, I'd be fine with it.
On August 28 2013 06:49 Ameisenmann wrote: I don't know. I think they're overdoing it with the baby step patches. This one will chance less than nothing.
Do not remind me of that 1 patch that changed everything for realz in WoL, will you?
On August 28 2013 05:31 Velouria wrote: I don't know too much about high level play, but I do think Mines are really strong. I would like either:
1. Mines burrow but are visible without detection. (siege mode.) - This would give zergs/toss the ability to micro the correct way in attacks instead of hoping you split the lings the right way.
2. Mines behave like Spider Mines from SC1. You plant them and they STAY. (Still recharge though.)
3. If nothing else, at least lower the splash radius.
I have pretty good map awareness against similar skilled terrans, but with Mines it pushes me far too hard, I can only imagine what Pro Zergs must deal with.
The biggest issue with this and the main issue I had as a mech player from the very beginning is that Widow Mines cost supply, so doing this would be a complete and utter way to make sure nobody, especially mech players who actually need the mines would ever use them. If when you planted them they didn't recharge and lost their supply cost, I'd be fine with it.
Glad that at least someone thinks that the key in the problem lies in the Widow-Mine.. I for one wouldn't like another spider-mine from BW, but the key of changes of the TvZ and TvP certainly lies in change of the unit..
Personally think that they should be tweaked/changed in a way that will be buff vs Protoss and nerf vs Zerg
On August 27 2013 04:21 USvBleakill wrote: A change that doesnt hurt anybody but it wont fix tvz because the problem is not "late" game its the time were Zerg is trying to get hive and Terran bio fights with 3/3 vs muta/ling. That timing that Bomber used in every game at WCS is a problem.
Kind of surprised that there are neither the MSC or Tanks mentioned. The Upgrades are not the main problem of Mech its that the SiegTank sucks and you have an absolute imobile army that cant even win streight up fight against the right unit composition.
exactly.
typical blizzard, bandaid fixes and never address the core issues.
Translation: They did not buff the thing that I feel is the problem with the game. Behold has I point to other forum posts that agree with me.
nice try. wrong though.
overseer speed buff is not the core of the issue with tvz.
and mech not being viable has nothing to do with upgrades.
nice try though.
Right, the things you think are "core issues", but Blizzard does not agree. Just because you say "core issues" does not make your point of view fact.
and how does your original post bring anything relevant but attack me?
of course it's not a fact, but blizzard is wrong and most people that know what they are talking about would agree.
it doesn't take rocket science to know overseer speed buff and upgrades are not core issues?
you really believe upgrades were a core issue for mech not being relevant?
you're wasting my time haha
You are doing a really good job of describing these core issues you believe are wrong with the game. But I guess just saying "Blizzard is wrong, core issues not addressed" is enough of an argument for some.
perhaps if you asked what I thought was a core issue instead of attacking me, then I would have?
and I'm not here to discuss any balance issues in detail, but frankly it's not like blizzard will do anything correctly.
I just agreed with previous poster, due to his sentiment of him feeling blizz is not addressing core issues.
which he is right.
Right, the classic design argument of "Blizzard is bad and is not addressing core issues." Yet you are unwilling to discuss or describe those core issues in any detail. Its almost like we have seen this argument before, over and over. Hate on Blizzard and whine about the patch, but not really provide anything of substance.
you are pretty dense aren't you?
I don't owe you any explanation. You are nobody. You're going in circles, as I said if you had asked normally I would have answered.
On August 27 2013 04:21 USvBleakill wrote: A change that doesnt hurt anybody but it wont fix tvz because the problem is not "late" game its the time were Zerg is trying to get hive and Terran bio fights with 3/3 vs muta/ling. That timing that Bomber used in every game at WCS is a problem.
Kind of surprised that there are neither the MSC or Tanks mentioned. The Upgrades are not the main problem of Mech its that the SiegTank sucks and you have an absolute imobile army that cant even win streight up fight against the right unit composition.
exactly.
typical blizzard, bandaid fixes and never address the core issues.
Translation: They did not buff the thing that I feel is the problem with the game. Behold has I point to other forum posts that agree with me.
nice try. wrong though.
overseer speed buff is not the core of the issue with tvz.
and mech not being viable has nothing to do with upgrades.
nice try though.
Right, the things you think are "core issues", but Blizzard does not agree. Just because you say "core issues" does not make your point of view fact.
and how does your original post bring anything relevant but attack me?
of course it's not a fact, but blizzard is wrong and most people that know what they are talking about would agree.
it doesn't take rocket science to know overseer speed buff and upgrades are not core issues?
you really believe upgrades were a core issue for mech not being relevant?
you're wasting my time haha
You are doing a really good job of describing these core issues you believe are wrong with the game. But I guess just saying "Blizzard is wrong, core issues not addressed" is enough of an argument for some.
perhaps if you asked what I thought was a core issue instead of attacking me, then I would have?
and I'm not here to discuss any balance issues in detail, but frankly it's not like blizzard will do anything correctly.
I just agreed with previous poster, due to his sentiment of him feeling blizz is not addressing core issues.
which he is right.
Right, the classic design argument of "Blizzard is bad and is not addressing core issues." Yet you are unwilling to discuss or describe those core issues in any detail. Its almost like we have seen this argument before, over and over. Hate on Blizzard and whine about the patch, but not really provide anything of substance.
you are pretty dense aren't you?
I don't owe you any explanation. You are nobody. You're going in circles, as I said if you had asked normally I would have answered.
get off your high horse
I like how you like to press 'Enter' button twice.
I think people are underestimating the effect this could have in ZvT if the Zerg is doing the "mine defusal' style a-la Scarlett. If the overseer can keep up with the mutas it is going to make it WAY more easy/comfortable/safe to do this without constantly having to worry about catching the overseer up. After watching the way Scarlett executes this and trying it myself, it was a bit of an epiphany and has made my ZvT a lot stronger almost overnight. I am looking forward to being able to execute this a lot more easily now.
On August 28 2013 09:42 Rube_Juice wrote: I think people are underestimating the effect this could have in ZvT if the Zerg is doing the "mine defusal' style a-la Scarlett. If the overseer can keep up with the mutas it is going to make it WAY more easy/comfortable/safe to do this without constantly having to worry about catching the overseer up. After watching the way Scarlett executes this and trying it myself, it was a bit of an epiphany and has made my ZvT a lot stronger almost overnight. I am looking forward to being able to execute this a lot more easily now.
Mutas sniping mines is more reliant on muta control and ability to keep it(muta stack) from other mines. Having overseer speed is just nice bonus, not much else.
This is a start, but not enough. TvZ is broken and it takes more to fix it.In the end I they won't get around fixing the widow mine. If they don't fix the mine in terms of dmg and splash or cost, they will have to find a way to make it easier for the zergs to deal with it in terms of mechanics. Making it visible for a few seconds after detonating or something like that.
I have played so many fucking games, my TVZ is 43% ZVZ is 53% and PVZ is 60% this is high masters. I really hate terran right now. The worst part is they think they are so good by ralleying down the map while putting some medivacs in your main, real cool guise. Then they have the nerve to bm you when you fail to hold all the pressure. If you are terran and you do this, seriously fuck yourself.
On August 28 2013 09:42 Rube_Juice wrote: I think people are underestimating the effect this could have in ZvT if the Zerg is doing the "mine defusal' style a-la Scarlett. If the overseer can keep up with the mutas it is going to make it WAY more easy/comfortable/safe to do this without constantly having to worry about catching the overseer up. After watching the way Scarlett executes this and trying it myself, it was a bit of an epiphany and has made my ZvT a lot stronger almost overnight. I am looking forward to being able to execute this a lot more easily now.
Mutas sniping mines is more reliant on muta control and ability to keep it(muta stack) from other mines. Having overseer speed is just nice bonus, not much else.
Yes.. this is obvious. Your muta micro is pretty meaningless if you have no detection in the area. The extra speed on the overseer will let you bounce around a LOT faster with your mutas to do this kind of mine defusal / harassment. It's very irritating to have to hold back your mutas because a slow-ass overseer is lagging behind. You want them to be as active as possible at all times, and this will enable that further.
Never mind the excellent scouting/flyby contamination capabilities and the increased survivability that will save precious gas over the course of the game.
Great change, and contrary to what many people seem to be saying, it WILL matter.
On August 28 2013 12:14 saddaromma wrote: Just a while ago DK was saying balance is ok, now he says T>Z. I'm pretty he is either lying or have no clue what the game he is making.
He's pandering to them, in other news there was a massive exodus of Terran and Protoss players and viewers in the last 2 years no thanks to BL/Infestor, range 5 Queens and months of tournaments featuring only ZvZ.
A safe change with no chance of any backlash, very predictable.
As to this patch,Bio mine tactics will be refined over the next 6 months by the Korean Professionals, you can see the results paying dividends already with players such as Polt and Bomber jumping onboard, its too good not to do it.
Mr Kim and Co knew what had to be done 3 years ago but didn't do it, so they messed around and Zerg ended up with a unit overpowered in order to compensate for the rest of its deficiency's.
With most of the new units barely used by the pros you have to wonder about game design.This game is looking stale after 6 months already, are we heading down the same route as before, i wonder?
Also why is almost every unit getting faster as a fix?. Faster Medivacs, followed by Faster Mutas to catch them, then we got faster Warp Prisms and now faster Overseers, what's next a turbo boost button for siege tanks in order to encourage Mech play?
This is quite annoying, maintenance was today but blizzard didn't take the opportunity to roll out the patch. I mean, the change is so minor, why skip it during maintenance day?
Good change. I lost a lot of my zvt games mid-game due to lost momentum vs 4M because I couldnt constantly morph my banelings in time or I lost overseer detection and couldnt stop the widow mines from darting forward. The speed upgrade makes it one item less to worry about other than microing lings, transitioning etc.
On August 28 2013 23:52 p14c wrote: This will definitely fix the balance issues...Not!
Stop talking out of your ass... it is embarrassing.
The Overlord speed buff is a huge one. Zs get to CONTINUE using muta/ling/bling as a go-to composition vs. Terran instead of researching other compositions, BOs, strategies and tactics to EVOLVE the state of the game.
On August 28 2013 23:52 p14c wrote: This will definitely fix the balance issues...Not!
Stop talking out of your ass... it is embarrassing.
The Overlord speed buff is a huge one. Zs get to CONTINUE using muta/ling/bling as a go-to composition vs. Terran instead of researching other compositions, BOs, strategies and tactics to EVOLVE the state of the game.
*sigh*
How in the world is a slightly faster overseer a huge buff? Detection was never the problem in TvZ the problem is once terran gets up to a high enough supply there is no way to engage cost efficiently, you can't even set the widow mines off because the marine marauders kills your lings before they can do it. Stop talking shit about "evolving the game" it has nothing to do with that, the widow mine is fundamentally broken regardless of whether zerg can win the matchup or not a slight overseer buff isn't going to change that.
I forgot all about this ability but this overseer change makes pvz even harder. Remember that thing where overseers can make your building malfunction for a while? yea...just played a masters zerg that abused the shit out of it. had like 4 overseers that would fly in and disable all my robos/stargates/etc.
On August 29 2013 10:22 VayneAuthority wrote: I forgot all about this ability but this overseer change makes pvz even harder. Remember that thing where overseers can make your building malfunction for a while? yea...just played a masters zerg that abused the shit out of it. had like 4 overseers that would fly in and disable all my robos/stargates/etc.
---
Um.. the ability is still 125 energy. If he wanted to contaminate before he still could have done so.
I'm so happy Kim didn't do anything. Now we can watch the consequences of his horrible decision making. If WCS3 was anything like WCS2 there won't be Zergs in 2014.
On August 29 2013 12:39 _Search_ wrote: I'm so happy Kim didn't do anything. Now we can watch the consequences of his horrible decision making. If WCS3 was anything like WCS2 there won't be Zergs in 2014.
There are 9 zergs in Code-S RO32 and last season a zerg was a finalist.
I think this is quite good, ok, so it's a bit too fast at the moment, but it's about time that Zerg got a decent 'mobile' detection. Overseers were too slow to catch up with the rest of the Zerg army before, so while Toss had Observers and Terran has Scans, Zerg was left...kinda in the dark. Also don't forget that this applys for Zerg's supply too.
On August 28 2013 23:52 p14c wrote: This will definitely fix the balance issues...Not!
Stop talking out of your ass... it is embarrassing.
The Overlord speed buff is a huge one. Zs get to CONTINUE using muta/ling/bling as a go-to composition vs. Terran instead of researching other compositions, BOs, strategies and tactics to EVOLVE the state of the game.
I think the speed is too big.. I can`t wait to get home and play and see how it looks in game.. I guess, even if lot of ppl says this won`t affect the game... that this is a really big change and will have a big impact in ZvP and ZvT. We`ll see.
On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote: If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate....
If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses.
There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base). Given the 3.75 fully upgraded speed, even two turrets will have an issue to take down an overseer before it fires off contaminate much less Spores and queens.
On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote: If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate....
If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses.
There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base).
IMHO the most affected ironically would be ZvZ.
I love how you assume that a Zerg has enough gas to do a 2-2 timing, with Overlord Speed, with 4x Overseers. I would love to see Contaminate be a standard part of the Meta, but you can't just blindly rush 4 Overseers, Overlord Speed, AND 2-2 unless the other guy has no clue what s/he's doing. You don't have nearly enough gas to be threatening with all those upgrades.
On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote: If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate....
If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses.
There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base).
IMHO the most affected ironically would be ZvZ.
Yeah, but if a zerg can contaminate(125energy) 8 production facilities with 4 overseers a Terran can also spawn 50 seeker missiles per marine.
And you know, if any player ever defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses the game ends anyways...
On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote: If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate....
If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses.
There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base).
IMHO the most affected ironically would be ZvZ.
there is no more 2-2 timing push anymore. terran starts the pushing at 1-1 and keeps trading from there (unless terran somehow just plays turtling like how bomber did against scarelett game 1)
On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote: If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate....
If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses.
There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base).
IMHO the most affected ironically would be ZvZ.
I love how you assume that a Zerg has enough gas to do a 2-2 timing, with Overlord Speed, with 4x Overseers. I would love to see Contaminate be a standard part of the Meta, but you can't just blindly rush 4 Overseers, Overlord Speed, AND 2-2 unless the other guy has no clue what s/he's doing. You don't have nearly enough gas to be threatening with all those upgrades.
What I described is end game 4-5 base 200/200 scenario, where both parties NEED to remax in order to fend off an uneven army trade.
I did not imply that the Z was ahead in upgrades, most folks have made that assumption.
As others have said, this tactic cannot exist without some form of planning or BO.
On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote: If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate....
If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses.
There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base).
IMHO the most affected ironically would be ZvZ.
Yeah, but if a zerg can contaminate(125energy) 8 production facilities with 4 overseers a Terran can also spawn 50 seeker missiles per marine.
And you know, if any player ever defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses the game ends anyways...
There many games of Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize to Eventually Take the game. Granted they are rare, but they do happen.
Just watch flash's stream, even though he has 71% win ratio against Korean zerg in proleague, he gets demolished by some IIIIIIIIII zerg five or six times : http://www.twitch.tv/ktrolsterflash/b/453050408
edit : and every time it's a big macro game with zerg having 5 bases edit2 : not saying the match-up is imbalanced, just saying zerg clearly has the tools needed to take out a terran on macro game
On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote: If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate....
If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses.
There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base).
IMHO the most affected ironically would be ZvZ.
Yeah, but if a zerg can contaminate(125energy) 8 production facilities with 4 overseers a Terran can also spawn 50 seeker missiles per marine.
And you know, if any player ever defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses the game ends anyways...
There many games of Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize to Eventually Take the game. Granted they are rare, but they do happen.
i think what he meant it is literally impossible to contaminate 8 production facilities with 4 overseers which have 1 contaminate at max energy...
and how is Z even going to have 8 overseers + ovispeed = 500 gas AND is able to attack you? right now with -500 gas for 30 sec production contaminate = gg since you just die. right now you cant even do a standard attack as Z since you will defend vs 1 1 biomine push all game long. 500 gas for 30 sec no production...yeah well no.
i dislike the fact that it will be faster than a stalker and also can fly... also, zerg has basically a flying superfast detector that can scout your whole base..
On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote: If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate....
If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses.
There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base).
IMHO the most affected ironically would be ZvZ.
I love how you assume that a Zerg has enough gas to do a 2-2 timing, with Overlord Speed, with 4x Overseers. I would love to see Contaminate be a standard part of the Meta, but you can't just blindly rush 4 Overseers, Overlord Speed, AND 2-2 unless the other guy has no clue what s/he's doing. You don't have nearly enough gas to be threatening with all those upgrades.
What I described is end game 4-5 base 200/200 scenario, where both parties NEED to remax in order to fend off an uneven army trade.
I did not imply that the Z was ahead in upgrades, most folks have made that assumption.
As others have said, this tactic cannot exist without some form of planning or BO.
I honestly wouldn't see a problem with this. If a terran can throw away 8 marines and a medivac for like 4 drones then not really get affected by it anywhere near as much as zerg is in mid to late game then surely some extra harassment via stopping a rax production for 40 seconds is fair.
W/e, you have some sort of idyllic world where zergs are able to spread creep, make shit, inject, morph banelings, push out with mutas for harass/deny terrans from doing too much damage with their harass and on top of that float in some overseers to stop all terran production. Maybe it's possible for someone with hand speed comparable to jaedong, but I just don't see it ever happening.
On August 29 2013 18:56 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote: i dislike the fact that it will be faster than a stalker and also can fly... also, zerg has basically a flying superfast detector that can scout your whole base..
Well to be fair Protoss do have an invisible flying scout which moves pretty fast with observer speed and zerg oftentimes has less anti air than toss/terran.
On August 29 2013 18:56 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote: i dislike the fact that it will be faster than a stalker and also can fly... also, zerg has basically a flying superfast detector that can scout your whole base..
Well to be fair Protoss do have an invisible flying scout which moves pretty fast with observer speed and zerg oftentimes has less anti air than toss/terran.
and to be fair as well terran has an unstoppable detection
and to be fair as well terran has an unstoppable detection
yeah the most random and cost-uneffective detection of the entire game thanks for point it out ! Scans are very useful to clean tumors and engage armies but scouting tech plz no!
and to be fair as well terran has an unstoppable detection
yeah the most random and cost-uneffective detection of the entire game thanks for point it out ! Scans are very useful to clean tumors and engage armies but scouting tech plz no!
What tech does either terran or protoss have that zerg doesn't know about, and wouldn't know without an ordinary overseer, before a zerg gets a lair, makes an overseer and then upgrades overlord speed?
On August 29 2013 15:57 JorjLim wrote: I think this is quite good, ok, so it's a bit too fast at the moment, but it's about time that Zerg got a decent 'mobile' detection. Overseers were too slow to catch up with the rest of the Zerg army before, so while Toss had Observers and Terran has Scans, Zerg was left...kinda in the dark. Also don't forget that this applys for Zerg's supply too.
and to be fair as well terran has an unstoppable detection
yeah the most random and cost-uneffective detection of the entire game thanks for point it out ! Scans are very useful to clean tumors and engage armies but scouting tech plz no!
What tech does either terran or protoss have that zerg doesn't know about, and wouldn't know without an ordinary overseer, before a zerg gets a lair, makes an overseer and then upgrades overlord speed?
I agree for terran. Terran is so predictable because of their limited options that the only thing you really need to scout for is a proxy 2rax. Against Protoss I find this change very questionable, because it is important to know the techswitch timings between templar, colossus and air. But I see, that Protoss has free scout with the hallucination, so maybe it´s just fair now.
On August 29 2013 18:25 VieuxSinge wrote: Just watch flash's stream, even though he has 71% win ratio against Korean zerg in proleague, he gets demolished by some IIIIIIIIII zerg five or six times : http://www.twitch.tv/ktrolsterflash/b/453050408
edit : and every time it's a big macro game with zerg having 5 bases edit2 : not saying the match-up is imbalanced, just saying zerg clearly has the tools needed to take out a terran on macro game
Interesting! What did the Zerg do? I don't have quite the time to watch the VODs, if you could be so dear as to summarize what the Zerg did you'd be really a sweet little candy. For me and others. ^^
On August 29 2013 18:25 VieuxSinge wrote: Just watch flash's stream, even though he has 71% win ratio against Korean zerg in proleague, he gets demolished by some IIIIIIIIII zerg five or six times : http://www.twitch.tv/ktrolsterflash/b/453050408
edit : and every time it's a big macro game with zerg having 5 bases edit2 : not saying the match-up is imbalanced, just saying zerg clearly has the tools needed to take out a terran on macro game
Then Flash was doing it wrong. TvZ is only "imbalanced" going up to a certain point in the game, the period between hive tech and the saturation of the fourth base. If Flash was allowing the zerg to get 5 bases without doing the parade push then he would be in trouble anyway.
However if the zerg was holding the parade push while getting upgrades at roughly the same time, that would be noteworthy and should be watched.
Well, zergs just played standard and defended very well without losing chunks of their army to widow mines. Flash was playing his usual "one big push" style but it didn't work.
I honnestly don't know if the overseer speed buff is the reason but the zergs had the upgrade every game
On August 29 2013 18:56 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote: i dislike the fact that it will be faster than a stalker and also can fly... also, zerg has basically a flying superfast detector that can scout your whole base..
By the time overseers (with speed) are out, scouting intel is not of as much importance as when we're still stuck on overlords. On top of that, on 4p maps zergs have a hard time scouting, when they misrallied both overlords (You have to guess and hope for the best, when rallying overlords on 4p maps), a problem terran and protoss do not share.
Good luck finding out what a protoss (or terran) is up to, without them exposing stuff at the wall and without overlords in place.
On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote: If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate....
If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses.
There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base).
IMHO the most affected ironically would be ZvZ.
Yeah, but if a zerg can contaminate(125energy) 8 production facilities with 4 overseers a Terran can also spawn 50 seeker missiles per marine.
And you know, if any player ever defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses the game ends anyways...
There many games of Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize to Eventually Take the game. Granted they are rare, but they do happen.
well, apart that from that it's still not possible to contaminate 8production facilities with 4overseers... It's one thing to say Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize or defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses. If I drop your main army down to zero and don't lose a lot in the process you are NOT going to stabilize ever.
On August 29 2013 18:56 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote: i dislike the fact that it will be faster than a stalker and also can fly... also, zerg has basically a flying superfast detector that can scout your whole base..
Well to be fair Protoss do have an invisible flying scout which moves pretty fast with observer speed and zerg oftentimes has less anti air than toss/terran.
and to be fair as well terran has an unstoppable detection
Forget observers... hallucinated phoenix? I'd trade a fast hallucinated flying unit for scan any day.
On August 29 2013 18:56 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote: i dislike the fact that it will be faster than a stalker and also can fly... also, zerg has basically a flying superfast detector that can scout your whole base..
Well to be fair Protoss do have an invisible flying scout which moves pretty fast with observer speed and zerg oftentimes has less anti air than toss/terran.
and to be fair as well terran has an unstoppable detection
That costs 300 minerals and last for a few seconds
On August 29 2013 18:56 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote: i dislike the fact that it will be faster than a stalker and also can fly... also, zerg has basically a flying superfast detector that can scout your whole base..
Well to be fair Protoss do have an invisible flying scout which moves pretty fast with observer speed and zerg oftentimes has less anti air than toss/terran.
and to be fair as well terran has an unstoppable detection
That costs 300 minerals and last for a few seconds
It does not cost 300 minerals. It costs ability to get 270 minerals in 90 seconds, and if upon landing your mule was killed by ling run-by it did not steal 300 minerals from you (at most 5 :D).
On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote: If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate....
If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses.
There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base).
IMHO the most affected ironically would be ZvZ.
Yeah, but if a zerg can contaminate(125energy) 8 production facilities with 4 overseers a Terran can also spawn 50 seeker missiles per marine.
And you know, if any player ever defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses the game ends anyways...
There many games of Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize to Eventually Take the game. Granted they are rare, but they do happen.
well, apart that from that it's still not possible to contaminate 8production facilities with 4overseers... It's one thing to say Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize or defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses. If I drop your main army down to zero and don't lose a lot in the process you are NOT going to stabilize ever.
Thank you Capt. Obvious for that insight.
In cases when it's NOT ROFLSTOMP, on a 4p map, a typical late game setup, 4 contaminates account for possibly ALL available production of a Zerg or a bio/mine Comp or gateway heavy Comp.
Why? Because past 40min, most Z have 4 bases and two macro hatches MAX and T bio/mine usually only has one reactor'd starport and one reactor'd factory. Same for most gateway heavy P comps, one or two robos, one Templar archives and one cybercore MAX. With current patch, the upgraded speed, the usual two cannons at the mineral line won't stop 4 overseers to Land 4 contaminates and the P is making only Zealots for the next 40s.
On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote: If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate....
If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses.
There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base).
IMHO the most affected ironically would be ZvZ.
Yeah, but if a zerg can contaminate(125energy) 8 production facilities with 4 overseers a Terran can also spawn 50 seeker missiles per marine.
And you know, if any player ever defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses the game ends anyways...
There many games of Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize to Eventually Take the game. Granted they are rare, but they do happen.
well, apart that from that it's still not possible to contaminate 8production facilities with 4overseers... It's one thing to say Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize or defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses. If I drop your main army down to zero and don't lose a lot in the process you are NOT going to stabilize ever.
Why? Because past 40min, most Z have 4 bases and two macro hatches MAX and T bio/mine usually only has one reactor'd starport and one reactor'd factory. Same for most gateway heavy P comps, one or two robos, one Templar archives and one cybercore MAX. With current patch, the upgraded speed, the usual two cannons at the mineral line won't stop 4 overseers to Land 4 contaminates and the P is making only Zealots for the next 40s.
wtf are you talking about? Contaminate on an archives and cybercore only stops upgrades on those buildings, you have to hit the gateways if you want to stop the actual units.
On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote: If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate....
If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses.
There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base).
IMHO the most affected ironically would be ZvZ.
Yeah, but if a zerg can contaminate(125energy) 8 production facilities with 4 overseers a Terran can also spawn 50 seeker missiles per marine.
And you know, if any player ever defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses the game ends anyways...
There many games of Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize to Eventually Take the game. Granted they are rare, but they do happen.
well, apart that from that it's still not possible to contaminate 8production facilities with 4overseers... It's one thing to say Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize or defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses. If I drop your main army down to zero and don't lose a lot in the process you are NOT going to stabilize ever.
Why? Because past 40min, most Z have 4 bases and two macro hatches MAX and T bio/mine usually only has one reactor'd starport and one reactor'd factory. Same for most gateway heavy P comps, one or two robos, one Templar archives and one cybercore MAX. With current patch, the upgraded speed, the usual two cannons at the mineral line won't stop 4 overseers to Land 4 contaminates and the P is making only Zealots for the next 40s.
wtf are you talking about? Contaminate on an archives and cybercore only stops upgrades on those buildings, you have to hit the gateways if you want to stop the actual units.
What...
I thought it deactivated the building including any tech options it unlocked?! Then DK should look into buffing contaminate to do that...
It would be totally sick move. Contaminate on the forge and the P is back to being 0/0/0. Hahahaha!
On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote: If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate....
If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses.
There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base).
IMHO the most affected ironically would be ZvZ.
Yeah, but if a zerg can contaminate(125energy) 8 production facilities with 4 overseers a Terran can also spawn 50 seeker missiles per marine.
And you know, if any player ever defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses the game ends anyways...
There many games of Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize to Eventually Take the game. Granted they are rare, but they do happen.
well, apart that from that it's still not possible to contaminate 8production facilities with 4overseers... It's one thing to say Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize or defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses. If I drop your main army down to zero and don't lose a lot in the process you are NOT going to stabilize ever.
Why? Because past 40min, most Z have 4 bases and two macro hatches MAX and T bio/mine usually only has one reactor'd starport and one reactor'd factory. Same for most gateway heavy P comps, one or two robos, one Templar archives and one cybercore MAX. With current patch, the upgraded speed, the usual two cannons at the mineral line won't stop 4 overseers to Land 4 contaminates and the P is making only Zealots for the next 40s.
wtf are you talking about? Contaminate on an archives and cybercore only stops upgrades on those buildings, you have to hit the gateways if you want to stop the actual units.
What...
I thought it deactivated the building including any tech options it unlocked?! Then DK should look into buffing contaminate to do that...
It would be totally sick move. Contaminate on the forge and the P is back to being 0/0/0. Hahahaha!
The Oracle in beta had an ability like that, it was hella broken. And Zerg really doesn't need that, because it would make huge tech switches even more impossible to handle, because you could just disable the opponent's ability to build counter units.
On August 29 2013 17:24 bo1b wrote: If you really think that a speed buff which needs to be researched is going to drastically increase the usage of contaminate....
If Zerg does a 2-2 timing push while doing a backstab using 4 overseers to contaminate 8 production facilities, the Terran or P can GG right there if the Z manages to defeat the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses.
There simply won't be enough production to stop the Z army march up the ramp of the main (production base).
IMHO the most affected ironically would be ZvZ.
Yeah, but if a zerg can contaminate(125energy) 8 production facilities with 4 overseers a Terran can also spawn 50 seeker missiles per marine.
And you know, if any player ever defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses the game ends anyways...
There many games of Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize to Eventually Take the game. Granted they are rare, but they do happen.
well, apart that from that it's still not possible to contaminate 8production facilities with 4overseers... It's one thing to say Terrans or Zergs popping out enough units to hold the push into the main and stabilize or defeats the standing Opponent's army with minimal losses. If I drop your main army down to zero and don't lose a lot in the process you are NOT going to stabilize ever.
Why? Because past 40min, most Z have 4 bases and two macro hatches MAX and T bio/mine usually only has one reactor'd starport and one reactor'd factory. Same for most gateway heavy P comps, one or two robos, one Templar archives and one cybercore MAX. With current patch, the upgraded speed, the usual two cannons at the mineral line won't stop 4 overseers to Land 4 contaminates and the P is making only Zealots for the next 40s.
wtf are you talking about? Contaminate on an archives and cybercore only stops upgrades on those buildings, you have to hit the gateways if you want to stop the actual units.
What...
I thought it deactivated the building including any tech options it unlocked?! Then DK should look into buffing contaminate to do that...
It would be totally sick move. Contaminate on the forge and the P is back to being 0/0/0. Hahahaha!
The Oracle in beta had an ability like that, it was hella broken. And Zerg really doesn't need that, because it would make huge tech switches even more impossible to handle, because you could just disable the opponent's ability to build counter units.
well thats currently what is happening actually as zergs are rediscovering contaminate with the speed buff they are tech switching and disabling robotics or stargate or whatever so that you can't deal with their units. it makes swarmhosts/mutas a bit more difficultt to deal with now, and I think as small as this change is has a pretty negative effect on pvz/zvz
I remember destiny tried a build to have overseer constantly contaminating the cybercore to delay warp gate tech and just flood units in. sadly it didn't really work though
The worst unit in the game is the observer. I wish it was cheaper + there was a range upgrade to research. I just can't get over how trash it is. I wish they would just remove it.
On August 30 2013 15:26 ETisME wrote: I remember destiny tried a build to have overseer constantly contaminating the cybercore to delay warp gate tech and just flood units in. sadly it didn't really work though
destiny also used overlords as a bait. he baited out a greedy protoss army looking to kill the OL and just killed that army with lings.
lol observer is amazing. its detection and vision and its invisible, map hacks for days! that being said, the fact that it is protoss' main form of mobile detection makes it feel especially fragile. Id be down to give observer blink if u give widowmines detection again lol
On August 30 2013 15:49 Doc Brawler wrote: lol observer is amazing. its detection and vision and its invisible, map hacks for days! that being said, the fact that it is protoss' main form of mobile detection makes it feel especially fragile. Id be down to give observer blink if u give widowmines detection again lol
The observer is trash. It's about as invisible as a gateway is. It's much, much harder to find your own observers than it is to notice when your opponent's observers are near you. O, and since they they have no movement speed and everything 1 shots them, they instantly die once detection arrives. Also, if you turtle with swarm hosts behind static D, the obs detection range/sight needs to be about at least 2x what it currently is to even be remotely effective.
They may as well move the observer to the nexus and increase its build time. Not making probes or having continuous production out of a robo (units that actually kill things) is a lose/lose proposition. Gas is far, far too important in SC 2 to justify making the worst unit in the game when 2 observers could be a HT, instead. Or you could make a dt... kill something, force a scan and actually have a chance to get away alive, something that the observer has never done before. Making pylons in place of observers is 1000x better than the observer is. Pylons > observers for scouting. Sad. I don't know why they even cost supply.
I also love how dt harass is shut down now and it's impossible to snipe overseers because they're unnecessarily fast, simply because the balance team is lack luster and don't have the ability to directly balance the widow mine. If it's really that much of a rocket science to balance 1 unit... hire some rocket scientists. Stop wasting everyone's time. If protoss is ever too strong, how about nerfing us instead of buffing the other races. If you buff one thing that affects a mu that was balanced to begin with, you probably need a counter measure instead of just praying the next imbalanced thing won't be as much of a sore thumb that sticks out, so you can act like you have accomplished something instead of just substituting problems.
DTs always were imba units balanced to a sideline due to easy access to detection.
Edit:
Thanks to above post, I believe in DK. Man is a genius! In buffing Overseer speed, he simultaneously buffed contaminate play,nerfed DT openers in ZvP and buffed muta/ling/bling vs ZvT bio/mine!!
On August 30 2013 15:49 Doc Brawler wrote: lol observer is amazing. its detection and vision and its invisible, map hacks for days! that being said, the fact that it is protoss' main form of mobile detection makes it feel especially fragile. Id be down to give observer blink if u give widowmines detection again lol
and since they they have no movement speed and everything 1 shots them, they instantly die once detection arrives. Also, if you turtle with swarm hosts behind static D, the obs detection range/sight needs to be about at least 2x what it currently is to even be remotely effective.
They may as well move the observer to the nexus and increase its build time. Not making probes or having continuous production out of a robo (units that actually kill things) is a lose/lose proposition. Gas is far, far too important in SC 2 to justify making the worst unit in the game when 2 observers could be a HT, instead. Or you could make a dt... kill something, force a scan and actually have a chance to get away alive, something that the observer has never done before. Making pylons in place of observers is 1000x better than the observer is. Pylons > observers for scouting. Sad. I don't know why they even cost supply.
Sounds to me you're just a bit upset because you're super careless with your observers. Different races have different upsides, one of protoss' upsides is that you have the best static defense (and detection) in the game. Terran and zerg static detection only shoots air, sadly.
If I don't keep my overseers in the back, they instantly die too, because i'd be a-moving forward.
Observers have 11 sight range, which is bigger than any other unit in the game, use them that way. Observers have 1.9 base speed, which is upgraded to 2.8 speed when you decide to get the speed upgrade, that's faster than an unupgraded overseer.
So once again, your complaints are nothing but a byproduct of your reckless observer usage and your irrational wish to want advantegous race perks, of other races - ignoring your own advantegous perks.
On August 30 2013 15:49 Doc Brawler wrote: lol observer is amazing. its detection and vision and its invisible, map hacks for days! that being said, the fact that it is protoss' main form of mobile detection makes it feel especially fragile. Id be down to give observer blink if u give widowmines detection again lol
The observer is trash. It's about as invisible as a gateway is. It's much, much harder to find your own observers than it is to notice when your opponent's observers are near you
Hit the 'select all army' button and ctrl-click your observers, voila.. you just found all of your observers. You could even opt to jump to location for each one of them.
On August 30 2013 16:37 playa wrote:
I also love how dt harass is shut down now and it's impossible to snipe overseers because they're unnecessarily fast, simply because the balance team is lack luster and don't have the ability to directly balance the widow mine. If it's really that much of a rocket science to balance 1 unit... hire some rocket scientists. Stop wasting everyone's time. If protoss is ever too strong, how about nerfing us instead of buffing the other races. If you buff one thing that affects a mu that was balanced to begin with, you probably need a counter measure instead of just praying the next imbalanced thing won't be as much of a sore thumb that sticks out, so you can act like you have accomplished something instead of just substituting problems.
Interesting, your train of thoughts is. DT harass is shut down by scouting it in time and having static or dynamic detection at every base, in time. Even if you don't have detection at a base, 3 DTs will kill a base before an overseer is morphed, regardless.
If you honestly believe that a minor speed boost suddenly shuts down harassment, you must be playing in a really low league, where plays are not solid at all. Anyone who's aware of a DT thread, will have taken proper measures in masters> leagues.
Complaining that you can't take advantage of your opponents mistakes as heavily anymore, assuming they won't have proper detection up at every base, is questionable.. really questionable.
And the surprise effect of DTs will still be the same as it was, morphing takes equally long and one can assume an overlord would already be near a base where it's being morphed - since surprise DTs really only work during the earlier stages on 3-base.
Surprise DT openings might not be affected too much (as they hit right as lair finishes or before), but what about DT harass in a macro game? For example if we get to a 4 base protoss situation? How would DTs fare with new speedseers?
On August 30 2013 15:49 Doc Brawler wrote: lol observer is amazing. its detection and vision and its invisible, map hacks for days! that being said, the fact that it is protoss' main form of mobile detection makes it feel especially fragile. Id be down to give observer blink if u give widowmines detection again lol
and since they they have no movement speed and everything 1 shots them, they instantly die once detection arrives. Also, if you turtle with swarm hosts behind static D, the obs detection range/sight needs to be about at least 2x what it currently is to even be remotely effective.
They may as well move the observer to the nexus and increase its build time. Not making probes or having continuous production out of a robo (units that actually kill things) is a lose/lose proposition. Gas is far, far too important in SC 2 to justify making the worst unit in the game when 2 observers could be a HT, instead. Or you could make a dt... kill something, force a scan and actually have a chance to get away alive, something that the observer has never done before. Making pylons in place of observers is 1000x better than the observer is. Pylons > observers for scouting. Sad. I don't know why they even cost supply.
Sounds to me you're just a bit upset because you're super careless with your observers. Different races have different upsides, one of protoss' upsides is that you have the best static defense (and detection) in the game. Terran and zerg static detection only shoots air, sadly.
If I don't keep my overseers in the back, they instantly die too, because i'd be a-moving forward.
Observers have 11 sight range, which is bigger than any other unit in the game, use them that way. Observers have 1.9 base speed, which is upgraded to 2.8 speed when you decide to get the speed upgrade, that's faster than an unupgraded overseer.
So once again, your complaints are nothing but a byproduct of your reckless observer usage and your irrational wish to want advantegous race perks, of other races - ignoring your own advantegous perks.
On August 30 2013 15:49 Doc Brawler wrote: lol observer is amazing. its detection and vision and its invisible, map hacks for days! that being said, the fact that it is protoss' main form of mobile detection makes it feel especially fragile. Id be down to give observer blink if u give widowmines detection again lol
The observer is trash. It's about as invisible as a gateway is. It's much, much harder to find your own observers than it is to notice when your opponent's observers are near you
Hit the 'select all army' button and ctrl-click your observers, voila.. you just found all of your observers. You could even opt to jump to location for each one of them.
I also love how dt harass is shut down now and it's impossible to snipe overseers because they're unnecessarily fast, simply because the balance team is lack luster and don't have the ability to directly balance the widow mine. If it's really that much of a rocket science to balance 1 unit... hire some rocket scientists. Stop wasting everyone's time. If protoss is ever too strong, how about nerfing us instead of buffing the other races. If you buff one thing that affects a mu that was balanced to begin with, you probably need a counter measure instead of just praying the next imbalanced thing won't be as much of a sore thumb that sticks out, so you can act like you have accomplished something instead of just substituting problems.
Interesting, your train of thoughts is. DT harass is shut down by scouting it in time and having static or dynamic detection at every base, in time. Even if you don't have detection at a base, 3 DTs will kill a base before an overseer is morphed, regardless.
If you honestly believe that a minor speed boost suddenly shuts down harassment, you must be playing in a really low league, where plays are not solid at all. Anyone who's aware of a DT thread, will have taken proper measures in masters> leagues.
Complaining that you can't take advantage of your opponents mistakes as heavily anymore, assuming they won't have proper detection up at every base, is questionable.. really questionable.
And the surprise effect of DTs will still be the same as it was, morphing takes equally long and one can assume an overlord would already be near a base where it's being morphed - since surprise DTs really only work during the earlier stages on 3-base.
Lol... did you just randomly link your profile? If you care enough... I don't use an alias, I play on NA and I was GM last season... I don't make observers because I'm not that bronze league. If you're making observers, you either don't get it or you're one of the very few players that are as solid as Rain.
I only make essential observers. Which would be 1 in p vs z to monitor the main attack path. And 1 or 2 in p vs p to be safe against dts (mainly 1 to keep their observer off your army, though). In p vs t, I've recently tried making 1, every now and then, to monitor the main attack path... but really, unless they have widow mines or the ability to have cloaked ghosts out, I don't make them in that mu.
I don't care if I can see what's coming if I need an extra immortal or colossus to not die. Observers need a sight upgrade just as much as they needed one in BW, if not more, now. Makes no sense for that upgrade to be gone. If you can macro, at all, you can rarely justify the speed upgrade for observers. Maybe against cloaked ghosts. Observers aren't something you want to make. They're something you make when people force you to make them.
Say you wanted to scout your opponent's base, what's faster, a phoenix or an observer? What costs supply and will instantly die upon being spotted? If you want to scout tech, you use hallucination. If you want to spot for drops or something, you don't waste precious gas when you could have a pylon or another unit that is more expendable or provides a net gain, either way.
Name a unit that is easier to kill than an observer? The observer doesn't even have an attack. It's a unit that keeps having its role diminished, but the price is yet to reflect its true value -- which isn't much at all. I'd take 1 ht over 2 observers, any day. I'd take an extra immortal over 2 observers, too. If you wouldn't, I can only hope to play against you. Observers just aren't worth slowing your tech and/or upgrades down.
As for dts in p vs z. I'm not a fan of all-ins or expecting good players to roll over and die. You use them to get an advantage. You still need for them to be useful after you harass with them. If there is absolutely no way to snipe overseers, they can only make 1 and be free to do w/e. Bigger army for them and no way for you to stall to buy time to have an appropriate army. You don't want to make an archon, either. You're going to need force fields and what will it do? Just smash your force fields? You can already make a spore whenever you feel like it. I just don't think they need to be able to free win dt builds because of a unit terran has...
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vIWsL2A.png)
)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lub4ZJS.png)
