|
On August 20 2013 00:35 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote:
Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used? No. I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere. Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
In certain cases, you need to have your ticket before you can get your visa (just been through this). So, awesome you never had any problems, but let's not falsely accuse Jim of anything.
|
annoying... That's why having a good management behind you is a good skill to have.
|
On August 20 2013 00:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 00:35 DinoMight wrote:On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote:
Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used? No. I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere. Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments. How did applying for Visa’s go when you started your business at age 17 and you were traveling without your parents? Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 00:33 DinoMight wrote:On August 20 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote:
Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament. No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will. I think you're wrong. If he is a professional gamer, then acquiring a visa to go compete in the biggest tournament he's ever played in should be kind of a priority. There have been so many spots forfeited to visa issues lately that I think something needs to be done about it. Something was done. He forfeited his spot, he can’t play and doesn’t get prize money or WCS points. He will be able to play in the US region and finals for next season, because he has been approved for a visa in the US and is already qualified. The problem has been solved.
I don't see how age has anything to do with it. He's a professional and is competing against people of all ages - thus he should be held accountable to the same standards as everyone else.
And no, something was not done. Not being able to play or receive prize money is just a consequence of him failing to prepare for a tournament. When you say problem solved, you are addressing the problem of Jim being able to compete, not the problem of gamers consistently failing to plan properly for tournaments by getting Visas ahead of time.
I may or may not have to travel to South America for business next month. I don't know yet, but I'm getting my Visas now just in case. It's called planning ahead.
|
|
|
On August 20 2013 00:46 Passion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 00:35 DinoMight wrote:On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote:
Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used? No. I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere. Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments. In certain cases, you need to have your ticket before you can get your visa (just been through this). So, awesome you never had any problems, but let's not falsely accuse Jim of anything.
I like Jim. The only thing I'm accusing him of is not planning in advance. Yes 17 year olds make mistakes. But that doesn't mean that anyone should be able to repetedly forfeit tournament spots because of their own lack of forward thinking.
So you buy your ticket in advance, and get your Visa. And if you don't qualify or whatever, you cancel your ticket and pay the cancellation fee. Isn't this better than not going to the WCS finals?
|
On August 20 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote:
Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament. No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
The tournament loses integrity every time a player forfeits. Simple as that.
|
On August 20 2013 00:47 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 00:37 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 00:35 DinoMight wrote:On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote:
Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used? No. I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere. Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments. How did applying for Visa’s go when you started your business at age 17 and you were traveling without your parents? On August 20 2013 00:33 DinoMight wrote:On August 20 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote:
Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament. No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will. I think you're wrong. If he is a professional gamer, then acquiring a visa to go compete in the biggest tournament he's ever played in should be kind of a priority. There have been so many spots forfeited to visa issues lately that I think something needs to be done about it. Something was done. He forfeited his spot, he can’t play and doesn’t get prize money or WCS points. He will be able to play in the US region and finals for next season, because he has been approved for a visa in the US and is already qualified. The problem has been solved. I don't see how age has anything to do with it. He's a professional and is competing against people of all ages - thus he should be held accountable to the same standards as everyone else. And no, something was not done. Not being able to play or receive prize money is just a consequence of him failing to prepare for a tournament. When you say problem solved, you are addressing the problem of Jim being able to compete, not the problem of gamers consistently failing to plan properly for tournaments by getting Visas ahead of time. I may or may not have to travel to South America for business next month. I don't know yet, but I'm getting my Visas now just in case. It's called planning ahead.
So when you applied for your first visa, did you prepare all your own documents and research the laws on how to apply for each country? Were you traveling to countries that were not part of the Visa Waiver program? Did anyone at your firm assist you in getting the visa? Because these are all things Jim had to do on his own. He doesn’t have a firm assisting him. He also doesn’t have the ability to say “I am on a business meeting,” since he doesn’t have an employer that is sending him over seas. I know it might be hard to believe, but it is harder for him to get a visa than it is for you.
|
United States2822 Posts
On August 20 2013 00:49 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 00:46 Passion wrote:On August 20 2013 00:35 DinoMight wrote:On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote:
Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used? No. I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere. Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments. In certain cases, you need to have your ticket before you can get your visa (just been through this). So, awesome you never had any problems, but let's not falsely accuse Jim of anything. I like Jim. The only thing I'm accusing him of is not planning in advance. Yes 17 year olds make mistakes. But that doesn't mean that anyone should be able to repetedly forfeit tournament spots because of their own lack of forward thinking. So you buy your ticket in advance, and get your Visa. And if you don't qualify or whatever, you cancel your ticket and pay the cancellation fee. Isn't this better than not going to the WCS finals?
Part of the visa application requires concrete travel plans. "I might qualify for the finals of this video game tournament" is not a valid travel plan for a visa.
|
On August 20 2013 00:51 stratmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote:
Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament. No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will. The tournament loses integrity every time a player forfeits. Simple as that.
It loses integrity when it starts punishing players for things that might not be their fault. Also, players can forfeit for any number of reasons, including “I got a really bad stomach bugs and I am trapped in the bathroom for 3 days”. I don’t think we should be punishing them for eating shellfish before the event.
|
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote:
IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
Try not to be psychotic, and pay close attention to the real situation at hands. Jim was denied a visa to attend this particular event. This decision wasn't made by him, but, by people in control of matters like this. Punishing a player over something like this would yield little to no results and would look quite strange. The point of punishment is to serve as a deterrent for behavior, or conduct. Doing what you insist serves as no deterrent.
|
On August 20 2013 00:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 00:47 DinoMight wrote:On August 20 2013 00:37 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 00:35 DinoMight wrote:On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote:
Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used? No. I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere. Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments. How did applying for Visa’s go when you started your business at age 17 and you were traveling without your parents? On August 20 2013 00:33 DinoMight wrote:On August 20 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote:
Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament. No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will. I think you're wrong. If he is a professional gamer, then acquiring a visa to go compete in the biggest tournament he's ever played in should be kind of a priority. There have been so many spots forfeited to visa issues lately that I think something needs to be done about it. Something was done. He forfeited his spot, he can’t play and doesn’t get prize money or WCS points. He will be able to play in the US region and finals for next season, because he has been approved for a visa in the US and is already qualified. The problem has been solved. I don't see how age has anything to do with it. He's a professional and is competing against people of all ages - thus he should be held accountable to the same standards as everyone else. And no, something was not done. Not being able to play or receive prize money is just a consequence of him failing to prepare for a tournament. When you say problem solved, you are addressing the problem of Jim being able to compete, not the problem of gamers consistently failing to plan properly for tournaments by getting Visas ahead of time. I may or may not have to travel to South America for business next month. I don't know yet, but I'm getting my Visas now just in case. It's called planning ahead. So when you applied for your first visa, did you prepare all your own documents and research the laws on how to apply for each country? Were you traveling to countries that were not part of the Visa Waiver program? Did anyone at your firm assist you in getting the visa? Because these are all things Jim had to do on his own. He doesn’t have a firm assisting him. He also doesn’t have the ability to say “I am on a business meeting,” since he doesn’t have an employer that is sending him over seas. I know it might be hard to believe, but it is harder for him to get a visa than it is for you.
I smell b.s. but...
It will be sad to see that Jim will not be at the grand finals, it's unfortunate that the Chinese players have had so much trouble adjusting to the international travel scene.
|
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote:
IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
I don't think you understand how hard it is to get a U.S. visa from China. You could do everything right and the government could still deny you unless you have sufficient connections.
|
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote:
Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
We are talking about the season finals, so the same thing would have happened if he qualified through WCS Korea. I do not see what this has to do with the NA region, since he never had to forfeit his spot there.
|
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote:
Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
Technically, it is both of those things.
What matters is to determine whether preserving integrity in such a manner is worth punishing a talented player trying to make a career for himself, and adding even more to the misfortunes of the Chinese SC2 scene for. I would say that would be a pretty damn bad trade.
At worst, if a player fails to obtain a visa, just send the next highest seed and all is well, the world doesn't end, the tournament can go on normally. At best, he'll be able to obtain a visa next time and actually take up his rightful place and compete next time.
Inversely, if you disqualify Jim from WCS, you stifle his career for a year, possibly for good. There isn't much to play for in China, and nowadays there isn't really a lot to play for outside of China that isn't WCS either, even if he could somehow get there. As much as it may have been Jim's fault this one time, the fact these scenarios keep repeating and piling up is only going to discourage other Chinese players.
You're punishing one of the now relatively few non-Korean players that DO have the drive and talent to make a career out of SC2 due to technical issues. Think about that the next time you see a doom-and-gloom thread about the popularity and future of SC2.
|
On August 20 2013 00:00 Spectralx wrote:
Region lock, and Starcraft would have 10 times less problems. All scenes would have a chance to grow. GL all,
LOL yes because region locking would obviously solve the problems of WCS NA players not being able to get German Visas.
Also if you region lock NA, where do the Chinese and Australians go? How is this promoting growth in "all scenes" when certain regions don't even have a wcs.
|
On August 20 2013 00:49 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 00:46 Passion wrote:On August 20 2013 00:35 DinoMight wrote:On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote:
Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used? No. I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere. Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments. In certain cases, you need to have your ticket before you can get your visa (just been through this). So, awesome you never had any problems, but let's not falsely accuse Jim of anything. I like Jim. The only thing I'm accusing him of is not planning in advance. Yes 17 year olds make mistakes. But that doesn't mean that anyone should be able to repetedly forfeit tournament spots because of their own lack of forward thinking. So you buy your ticket in advance, and get your Visa. And if you don't qualify or whatever, you cancel your ticket and pay the cancellation fee. Isn't this better than not going to the WCS finals?
It does not work that way for non-first-world-countries. You need a reason for applying for a Visa, and "I might attend this event" is not enough. He is also not backed by a company (like you are) until he qualifies. So he cannot get the Visa before he qualifies.
|
With a region lock, it would be hard to justify even having WCS NA in the current format, or at all. Maybe with a significantly reduced prize pool and 1-2 qualifier slots at best.
Having a China/SEA WCS would probably be a better option then.
|
This visa bullshit has to go! Wherever you were born it was by chance.
Can't see any reason why people shouldn't be allowed to move freely.
If, at all, there could be some criteria if it comes to settling down - imo: even that is unnecessary.
|
On August 20 2013 00:51 stratmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote:
Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament. No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will. The tournament loses integrity every time a player forfeits. Simple as that.
I really don't think this is as big as you're trying to make it sound. This is awful for Jim, and it sucks for all his fans who wanted to see him play. In every other aspect, it's a minor inconvenience. The next best guy gets the spot. It's not a big deal, really, and it doesn't threaten the integrity of the tournament nearly as much as banning a top player from competing would.
|
On August 20 2013 00:51 stratmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote:
Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament. No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will. The tournament loses integrity every time a player forfeits. Simple as that.
You lose integrity every time you make a post on TL.net. Simple as that.
EDIT: The thread has now been updated with a bit of info from iG.Edison's blog.
Chinese is not my mother tongue so it took me a while to translate that. Let me know if you guys think my translation was erroneous.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
