The following statement was made by iG.Edison, Jim's coach, on his weibo account:
Many People have asked, "Why didn't the Chinese players try to qualify for WCS KR?". The short answer is, "You have to be in Korea to even qualify for WCS KR Challenger league." So that rules out anyone who is not geographically located in Korea. Even then, Korea is not the same country as China, and thus players must apply for a visa to enter the country.
This is such a tragic piece of news, in the end because of visa issues, this time we have no way at all to attend the WCS World Finals in Cologne, Germany. The invite will instead be extended to to the competitor that Jim had defeated, Alive. At this point, we must thank Blizzard and Netease, and the support of ESL in many different ways. We're so sorry, this time we have no way to stand on the world stage and show everyone amazing games. @Jin Hui Cao, JIM @Starcraft.
My own reflection is that I thought Jim would have gotten the visa for sure. I was personally sure that he would get it...
Edison's account of what happened on his sina blog, before and after translation: + Show Spoiler +
At the time we had come back from America, we already proactively discussing with Blizzard and ESL about the issue of the visa. To ensure that once we had arrived home [China], we took our invitation letters, the first time we rushed for a visa. But originally we prepared for a German work visa, we were informed there was no way to continue processing it, forcing us to switch to a french visa, we would need another invitation letter, and because German consulate was in the middle of a weekend, so we had to wait until Monday until we were able to get a new invitation letter. At this time the only thing we could do is ensure that the documents in front of us didn't have any problems. We had repeatedly been through [our documents] verifying them. Afterwards we noticed one imperfection: Jim, this year, only on October 10th would be a full 18 years of age. and anyone under a full 18 years of age must have their parents permission to get a visa or have power of attorney. As a result, this was the first time we consulted Jim's mother, she gave us that authority template, and she took the time yesterday to proceed with work visa. Misfortune does not come alone... Last night we got Jim's mother's final answer: because her Hukou (Chinese social security number / ID) is registered to Guangdong, and she was presently in Hunan, she works in Hunan and lives in Hunan. We were informed that we must get back to the place where the Hukou is registered to get work visas. Even though ESL informed us that they had a way to get us visas in less than 3 working days, if we were to send the visa out for processing on Monday, the Power of Attorney letter and the invitation letter would not be in our hands on Monday, and basically we would not arrive in Time. So, last night I contacted Blizzard and ESL, informing them of the relevant situation, the attitudes we were in towards this tournament, to let Blizzard plan this out well. Its not about holding on until the end because this, and the tournaments cannot be regularly done, and finally I went to sleep. When I woke up, I just found out that the entire sky of news and QQ (messenger program, similar to skype) messages asking me if Jim's visa was or wasn't screwed. So I think I must write this for a moment on weibo (Chinese twitter), letting everyone who supports us know our situation. Sorry, recently for a long time I had not slept well, so last night I slept a long time, only this late have I told everyone our situation.
Finally, I just want to say, only if there is just a ghost of a chance, I will certainly not give up!
Geez. I must have spent 30 minutes to an hour translating that...
EDIT: Please stop the player-bashing, guys.
EDIT 2: I don't mean to bash tournament organizers, but with this little jiffy happening, I have to inject my own thoughts. Open a 4th region. This is just a concept, and users can read it here: here.
IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
It sounds like you are suffering from first world problems, but that's just my perspective.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
Is this actually Jim's fault?
Regardless, it's a pity that he had to forfeit his spot. I know the Chinese players have a pretty big following in the community. Best of luck to Alive though!
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
Is this actually Jim's fault?
Regardless, it's a pity that he had to forfeit his spot. I know the Chinese players have a pretty big following in the community. Best of luck to Alive though!
he's not saying it's jim's fault
There definitely needs to be a system in place for taking care of players who can't acquire visas, because it takes away opportunities from other players and makes for shitty tournament situations (walkover lottery against viOLet 2 seasons in a row).
I'd prefer it be a system where they find replacements for absent players, but given the # of players someone like violet can eliminate on his way up, suspensions for multiple violations might be necessary on top of that.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
It sounds like you are suffering from first world problems, but that's just my perspective.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
Is this actually Jim's fault?
Regardless, it's a pity that he had to forfeit his spot. I know the Chinese players have a pretty big following in the community. Best of luck to Alive though!
This time it was a little, because he didn’t look up the Visa requirement for Germany to make sure he would have no problem’s attending. However, he is a young guy and I don’t think he should be punished for it. I think this might be his first attempt to visit the EU in his life(I am just guessing, but he is very young) and mistakes happen. Blizzard and the folks running the leagues should put out a reminder each season to remind people to check on the visa requirements for each region before attempting to qualify. Links and an FAQ should be put together as well.
This one is just an honest mistake and we shouldn’t be freaking out at anyone. Live and learn.
Why are there so many frickin Visa issues? Is Jim the only Chinese person trying to enter Germany?? Did they just not plan far enough ahead of time for this?
This seems like it should be such a non-issue. Maybe they should look into how this is done for conventional sports. Chinese atheletes compete everywhere all the time.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
It sounds like you are suffering from first world problems, but that's just my perspective.
Isnt this website mostly about 1st world problems?
I mean its a videogame forum. You dont get more 1st world than this.
His solution might be harsh but if the chinese's presence is a question mark for every event they get an invite for, why the invite?
On August 19 2013 23:43 DinoMight wrote: Why are there so many frickin Visa issues? Is Jim the only Chinese person trying to enter Germany?? Did they just not plan far enough ahead of time for this?
This seems like it should be such a non-issue. Maybe they should look into how this is done for conventional sports. Chinese atheletes compete everywhere all the time.
Jim is under 18 years old and he needs a letters from his parents saying someone can act as his guardian while he is there. It’s a requirement in Germany and the letter must be signed by his parent and notarized. He couldn’t get it in time and cannot go because of it.
Professional athletes have no problem because they have people who handle this shit for them. Jim doesn’t have that. Its just him and his coach and that is it. They are both young guys and they are learning things as they go.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
ROFL
What world do you live in bro? It's a visa issue, contrary to popular belief one can't just travel anywhere one pleases anytime one wants.
Suspend someone because he couldn't get into a country? Pure bullshit, what an awful disgusting post from you.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
It sounds like you are suffering from first world problems, but that's just my perspective.
Isnt this website mostly about 1st world problems?
I mean its a videogame forum. You dont get more 1st world than this.
His solution might be harsh but if the chinese's presence is a question mark for every event they get an invite for, why the invite?
Ok, but what I'm telling you is that he basically said, "Exclude all Chinese players." Initially Jim and MacSed wouldn't have made it to the WCS NA Premier league without the aid of Blizzard and NetEase. Maybe if it was for attending an LCS tournament they would have gotten in, but I doubt it. The bigger picture is that without the bolded sentence above, they wouldn't have made it.
That's like saying, "No foreigners allowed at GSL."
My own beliefs are that the world is not ready for globalized eSports. We need to select venues that are already globalized and leniant on immigration (Singapore, Hong Kong, Canada, etc.), and make these in to locales for Premier Leagues so that people can actually get to the final location with very little trouble.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
Is this actually Jim's fault?
Regardless, it's a pity that he had to forfeit his spot. I know the Chinese players have a pretty big following in the community. Best of luck to Alive though!
he's not saying it's jim's fault
There definitely needs to be a system in place for taking care of players who can't acquire visas, because it takes away opportunities from other players and makes for shitty tournament situations (walkover lottery against viOLet 2 seasons in a row).
I'd prefer it be a system where they find replacements for absent players, but given the # of players someone like violet can eliminate on his way up, suspensions for multiple violations might be necessary on top of that.
It can't have any system on that replacements. Even in the Sports world, athletes also have visa issue. But for the real sports events, the organizer will give a long time for people and their team get their visa.
On August 19 2013 23:43 DinoMight wrote: Why are there so many frickin Visa issues? Is Jim the only Chinese person trying to enter Germany?? Did they just not plan far enough ahead of time for this?
This seems like it should be such a non-issue. Maybe they should look into how this is done for conventional sports. Chinese atheletes compete everywhere all the time.
Jim is under 18 years old and he needs a letters from his parents saying someone can act as his guardian while he is there. It’s a requirement in Germany and the letter must be signed by his parent and notarized. He couldn’t get it in time and cannot go because of it.
Professional athletes have no problem because they have people who handle this shit for them. Jim doesn’t have that. Its just him and his coach and that is it. They are both young guys and they are learning things as they go.
Sounds like "Visa issues" then is "did not plan ahead."
I like Jim, but people need to start getting warnings / suspensions for this. So many spots being forfeited because of visa issues. It's not fair to the other players.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
Mister, you deserve a warning for this post in my opinion, seriously. Players do not know in advance if they are going to win, especially those chinese guys since they are not playing in the international scene since a long time. So, when you have to face those visa issues after you qualified, it might always happen that things are slowed down by several reasons, might it be the age as it is now, or completely different reasons.
In this case, I think the visa failed due to the short amount of time that was given between the global finals and the regional finals, especially if you think of german bureaucracy (I'm not talking about that as a cliché, I am german and I do know what I am talking about!). Your post is basically saying "Fuck the fact that there is no region lock", so please get out of my TL.net and go play in your own freakin' sandbox. As for me, I do not like that there is no region lock myself, but I still enjoy the great matches that are provided. And, by the way, where is Jim taking a spot away from your beloved NA-playing players? EG's aLive is joining in instead, and though he might not be a native american, he is still the next contender for this place. So just shut up, and if you do not enjoy koreans winning tournaments, then GTFO to another game!
Edit: to the other people that want a "warning" or some other sort of punishment for those visa issues: esports is not as professional as football or soccer. So if people do have visa issues and cannot play a tournament that they would like to attend - isn't that enough punishment already? We are still a rather small scene, and if anyone starts to punish players for those things, where are we going then? You can't do everything perfect at first try. But as long as people learn to deal with it, we are all fine. (Except Violet. He even extended his visa in AM, so I guess he won't ever get one again :D)
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
This, what you suggest is a form of protectionism, which will enable more NA players to take part in the tournaments, but will reduce the quality of games played. NA scene is behind Korea as is, and you are suggesting a way to make it even less competitive. Btw, isn't it Germany that we are talking about in the first place?
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
yeah cause those american players suck and cant make the cut. Jim posted for a visa over a month ago due to other people having the same thing, its not his fault governments are slow and sometimes even stupid. shut up you fanboy and learn to like players that are good
On August 19 2013 23:43 DinoMight wrote: Why are there so many frickin Visa issues? Is Jim the only Chinese person trying to enter Germany?? Did they just not plan far enough ahead of time for this?
This seems like it should be such a non-issue. Maybe they should look into how this is done for conventional sports. Chinese atheletes compete everywhere all the time.
Jim is under 18 years old and he needs a letters from his parents saying someone can act as his guardian while he is there. It’s a requirement in Germany and the letter must be signed by his parent and notarized. He couldn’t get it in time and cannot go because of it.
Professional athletes have no problem because they have people who handle this shit for them. Jim doesn’t have that. Its just him and his coach and that is it. They are both young guys and they are learning things as they go.
Sounds like "Visa issues" then is "did not plan ahead."
I like Jim, but people need to start getting warnings / suspensions for this. So many spots being forfeited because of visa issues. It's not fair to the other players.
He is 17 years old and this might be the longest trip he has been out of the country for. I don’t think he reads German, so he would likely have needed to ask the German Embassy directly before he left China. I am willing to give a 17 year old kid a break, since he is already missing out on competing in the WCS season 2 world finals.
People are being way to harsh on the people with Visa issues. Sometimes they cannot be helped and most of the time they are honest mistakes. It sucks, but suspensions is not a solution to the problem when you can’t apply for most Visas in advance. There needs to be a fair system to replace them if they have visa problems, but no punishment is necessary.
On August 19 2013 23:43 DinoMight wrote: Why are there so many frickin Visa issues? Is Jim the only Chinese person trying to enter Germany?? Did they just not plan far enough ahead of time for this?
This seems like it should be such a non-issue. Maybe they should look into how this is done for conventional sports. Chinese atheletes compete everywhere all the time.
Jim is under 18 years old and he needs a letters from his parents saying someone can act as his guardian while he is there. It’s a requirement in Germany and the letter must be signed by his parent and notarized. He couldn’t get it in time and cannot go because of it.
Professional athletes have no problem because they have people who handle this shit for them. Jim doesn’t have that. Its just him and his coach and that is it. They are both young guys and they are learning things as they go.
Sounds like "Visa issues" then is "did not plan ahead."
I like Jim, but people need to start getting warnings / suspensions for this. So many spots being forfeited because of visa issues. It's not fair to the other players.
It is fair for everyone, you are already be beaten by someone, if you good, take out jim, take out violet, you can't! you can't beat these player and you still want your spots?
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
The real bullshit is western countries make it so hard for Chinese to obtain visas.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
The real bullshit is western countries make it so hard for Chinese to obtain visas.
It has nothing to do with him being Chinese. It has to do with him being a minor and not having the appropriate documentation to visit Germany without a parent.
Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
The real bullshit is western countries make it so hard for Chinese to obtain visas.
Yea, you can't go around blaming players for political situations they can not control. Having an American, or European passport gives us a lot of flexibility when traveling the globe, but don't assume it is so easy for everyone to casually get things like a visa. When I moved to Russia to get my second degree, getting a visa wasn't easy. And it took me three visits to the Russian Embassy in Houston, Texas before I got everything straight and in order. Germany / European Union visa requirements are without a doubt completely different than USA requirements. There are so many little things you have to have done and if you are missing any of it, it is a quick 'denied'.
If you want to stay in America and scream region lock, then fine. But at least go play the new game on Steam "Papers, Please". Maybe then you will understand how hard it is for some to get a visa.
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, a lot of TLers have a better appreciation for the realities of dealing with Governments and the weird ways they can end up working. Jim couldn't apply for a German Visa until he won a Season Finals spot, had to fly back to China to apply and the paper work just wasn't going to be completed in time. Governments don't just hop to it to fit people in. (Unless you can invest several million dollars into the country)
It's simply the nature of having a top competitor from China, a country that roughly 1/2 the population would emigrant from to a first world country, if given the opportunity.
WHY DON'T THEY LET JIM PLAY FROM THE BLIZZARD OFFICE WITH A REF IN CHINA? WHY DON'T THEY LET JIM PLAY FROM THE BLIZZARD OFFICE WITH A REF IN CHINA? WHY DON'T THEY LET JIM PLAY FROM THE BLIZZARD OFFICE WITH A REF IN CHINA? StarCraft is a online game after all.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
Well I don't think it's unfair to the beaten players. They lost and wouldn't attend anyway.
I think it's more unfair to the other players competing. Either there is a by and some players don't have to win as many matches to go to the next round, or someone who is put as a replacement for Jim gets in without having qualified like the other players in the tournament.
How long does it take to get a visa? Is 12 days enough time?
Maybe they (the players, managers, etc.) can apply for a visa to Country X before they know whether or not they need the visa. If the player makes the cut, the visa is ready to go. If the player doesn't make the cut, don't go. Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
I think you're wrong. If he is a professional gamer, then acquiring a visa to go compete in the biggest tournament he's ever played in should be kind of a priority.
There have been so many spots forfeited to visa issues lately that I think something needs to be done about it.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
No.
I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere.
Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: How long does it take to get a visa? Is 12 days enough time?
Maybe they (the players, managers, etc.) can apply for a visa to Country X before they know whether or not they need the visa. If the player makes the cut, the visa is ready to go. If the player doesn't make the cut, don't go. Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
All right, we are doing this again. Normally, you cannot apply for a visa if you think you “might” need it. You need to apply for a visa if you have confirmed plans to travel to that area and you need to be able to back up those plans. This does not apply to US “waiver visas” between the US and a select group of nations. But for the rest of the world, you normally need to tell them where you are going and provide proof that you are going there. Visas are a pain in the ass to get normally.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
No.
I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere.
Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
How did applying for Visa’s go when you started your business at age 17 and you were traveling without your parents?
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
I think you're wrong. If he is a professional gamer, then acquiring a visa to go compete in the biggest tournament he's ever played in should be kind of a priority.
There have been so many spots forfeited to visa issues lately that I think something needs to be done about it.
Something was done. He forfeited his spot, he can’t play and doesn’t get prize money or WCS points. He will be able to play in the US region and finals for next season, because he has been approved for a visa in the US and is already qualified. The problem has been solved.
On August 20 2013 00:00 Spectralx wrote: Region lock, and Starcraft would have 10 times less problems. All scenes would have a chance to grow. GL all,
how is that? noone is going to put as much money into a scene like NA if there are no koreans participating in the trounaments the NA regional stuff would get exactly 0 views from anywhere outside the the region itself because the level of play isn't high enough and the chance for it to get higher wouldn't be there because there are no better players to practice with and at world finals Korea would still dominate everything so I don't see how that would help at all
I mean look at it from another point of view: now at least scarlett the one player from the NA region that still competes in the NA region (so basically other than goswser) gets to play with the best and still go to worlds - perfect
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
It's not lack of planning, it's your country refusing to let him enter. Blame on your government, not on the poor guy. You can't start trying to get visa before you know you'll get to the event, or before the date is anounced. Sadly, the time frame to be sure you get a visa is longer than what you have, between the moment you know you'll go to the tournament and the tournament itself.
Even as an European, getting a (non tourism) American visa is really long.
What you are basically suggesting is excluding Chinese players from the WCS system.
Since policies between China and the US are not likely to change, what we really need is a WCS China. Maybe with a small number of players to the world finals, maybe not since it may attract Koreans (probably less lag on the online part).
That would also help sc2 grow in China.
On August 20 2013 00:00 Spectralx wrote: Region lock, and Starcraft would have 10 times less problems. All scenes would have a chance to grow. GL all,
There is no region lock question to be raised in this thread. Chinese play in NA because they don't have a WCS region. Well prepared Korean players have no problem getting their visas, because they are backed by American organisations and are from a country facilitating the process. (violet is an exception, when for the Chinese, it's pretty much the norm).
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
No.
I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere.
Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
In certain cases, you need to have your ticket before you can get your visa (just been through this). So, awesome you never had any problems, but let's not falsely accuse Jim of anything.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
No.
I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere.
Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
How did applying for Visa’s go when you started your business at age 17 and you were traveling without your parents?
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
I think you're wrong. If he is a professional gamer, then acquiring a visa to go compete in the biggest tournament he's ever played in should be kind of a priority.
There have been so many spots forfeited to visa issues lately that I think something needs to be done about it.
Something was done. He forfeited his spot, he can’t play and doesn’t get prize money or WCS points. He will be able to play in the US region and finals for next season, because he has been approved for a visa in the US and is already qualified. The problem has been solved.
I don't see how age has anything to do with it. He's a professional and is competing against people of all ages - thus he should be held accountable to the same standards as everyone else.
And no, something was not done. Not being able to play or receive prize money is just a consequence of him failing to prepare for a tournament. When you say problem solved, you are addressing the problem of Jim being able to compete, not the problem of gamers consistently failing to plan properly for tournaments by getting Visas ahead of time.
I may or may not have to travel to South America for business next month. I don't know yet, but I'm getting my Visas now just in case. It's called planning ahead.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
No.
I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere.
Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
In certain cases, you need to have your ticket before you can get your visa (just been through this). So, awesome you never had any problems, but let's not falsely accuse Jim of anything.
I like Jim. The only thing I'm accusing him of is not planning in advance. Yes 17 year olds make mistakes. But that doesn't mean that anyone should be able to repetedly forfeit tournament spots because of their own lack of forward thinking.
So you buy your ticket in advance, and get your Visa. And if you don't qualify or whatever, you cancel your ticket and pay the cancellation fee. Isn't this better than not going to the WCS finals?
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
The tournament loses integrity every time a player forfeits. Simple as that.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
No.
I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere.
Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
How did applying for Visa’s go when you started your business at age 17 and you were traveling without your parents?
On August 20 2013 00:33 DinoMight wrote:
On August 20 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
I think you're wrong. If he is a professional gamer, then acquiring a visa to go compete in the biggest tournament he's ever played in should be kind of a priority.
There have been so many spots forfeited to visa issues lately that I think something needs to be done about it.
Something was done. He forfeited his spot, he can’t play and doesn’t get prize money or WCS points. He will be able to play in the US region and finals for next season, because he has been approved for a visa in the US and is already qualified. The problem has been solved.
I don't see how age has anything to do with it. He's a professional and is competing against people of all ages - thus he should be held accountable to the same standards as everyone else.
And no, something was not done. Not being able to play or receive prize money is just a consequence of him failing to prepare for a tournament. When you say problem solved, you are addressing the problem of Jim being able to compete, not the problem of gamers consistently failing to plan properly for tournaments by getting Visas ahead of time.
I may or may not have to travel to South America for business next month. I don't know yet, but I'm getting my Visas now just in case. It's called planning ahead.
So when you applied for your first visa, did you prepare all your own documents and research the laws on how to apply for each country? Were you traveling to countries that were not part of the Visa Waiver program? Did anyone at your firm assist you in getting the visa? Because these are all things Jim had to do on his own. He doesn’t have a firm assisting him. He also doesn’t have the ability to say “I am on a business meeting,” since he doesn’t have an employer that is sending him over seas. I know it might be hard to believe, but it is harder for him to get a visa than it is for you.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
No.
I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere.
Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
In certain cases, you need to have your ticket before you can get your visa (just been through this). So, awesome you never had any problems, but let's not falsely accuse Jim of anything.
I like Jim. The only thing I'm accusing him of is not planning in advance. Yes 17 year olds make mistakes. But that doesn't mean that anyone should be able to repetedly forfeit tournament spots because of their own lack of forward thinking.
So you buy your ticket in advance, and get your Visa. And if you don't qualify or whatever, you cancel your ticket and pay the cancellation fee. Isn't this better than not going to the WCS finals?
Part of the visa application requires concrete travel plans. "I might qualify for the finals of this video game tournament" is not a valid travel plan for a visa.
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
The tournament loses integrity every time a player forfeits. Simple as that.
It loses integrity when it starts punishing players for things that might not be their fault. Also, players can forfeit for any number of reasons, including “I got a really bad stomach bugs and I am trapped in the bathroom for 3 days”. I don’t think we should be punishing them for eating shellfish before the event.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
Try not to be psychotic, and pay close attention to the real situation at hands. Jim was denied a visa to attend this particular event. This decision wasn't made by him, but, by people in control of matters like this. Punishing a player over something like this would yield little to no results and would look quite strange. The point of punishment is to serve as a deterrent for behavior, or conduct. Doing what you insist serves as no deterrent.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
No.
I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere.
Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
How did applying for Visa’s go when you started your business at age 17 and you were traveling without your parents?
On August 20 2013 00:33 DinoMight wrote:
On August 20 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
I think you're wrong. If he is a professional gamer, then acquiring a visa to go compete in the biggest tournament he's ever played in should be kind of a priority.
There have been so many spots forfeited to visa issues lately that I think something needs to be done about it.
Something was done. He forfeited his spot, he can’t play and doesn’t get prize money or WCS points. He will be able to play in the US region and finals for next season, because he has been approved for a visa in the US and is already qualified. The problem has been solved.
I don't see how age has anything to do with it. He's a professional and is competing against people of all ages - thus he should be held accountable to the same standards as everyone else.
And no, something was not done. Not being able to play or receive prize money is just a consequence of him failing to prepare for a tournament. When you say problem solved, you are addressing the problem of Jim being able to compete, not the problem of gamers consistently failing to plan properly for tournaments by getting Visas ahead of time.
I may or may not have to travel to South America for business next month. I don't know yet, but I'm getting my Visas now just in case. It's called planning ahead.
So when you applied for your first visa, did you prepare all your own documents and research the laws on how to apply for each country? Were you traveling to countries that were not part of the Visa Waiver program? Did anyone at your firm assist you in getting the visa? Because these are all things Jim had to do on his own. He doesn’t have a firm assisting him. He also doesn’t have the ability to say “I am on a business meeting,” since he doesn’t have an employer that is sending him over seas. I know it might be hard to believe, but it is harder for him to get a visa than it is for you.
I smell b.s. but...
It will be sad to see that Jim will not be at the grand finals, it's unfortunate that the Chinese players have had so much trouble adjusting to the international travel scene.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
I don't think you understand how hard it is to get a U.S. visa from China. You could do everything right and the government could still deny you unless you have sufficient connections.
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
We are talking about the season finals, so the same thing would have happened if he qualified through WCS Korea. I do not see what this has to do with the NA region, since he never had to forfeit his spot there.
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
Technically, it is both of those things.
What matters is to determine whether preserving integrity in such a manner is worth punishing a talented player trying to make a career for himself, and adding even more to the misfortunes of the Chinese SC2 scene for. I would say that would be a pretty damn bad trade.
At worst, if a player fails to obtain a visa, just send the next highest seed and all is well, the world doesn't end, the tournament can go on normally. At best, he'll be able to obtain a visa next time and actually take up his rightful place and compete next time.
Inversely, if you disqualify Jim from WCS, you stifle his career for a year, possibly for good. There isn't much to play for in China, and nowadays there isn't really a lot to play for outside of China that isn't WCS either, even if he could somehow get there. As much as it may have been Jim's fault this one time, the fact these scenarios keep repeating and piling up is only going to discourage other Chinese players.
You're punishing one of the now relatively few non-Korean players that DO have the drive and talent to make a career out of SC2 due to technical issues. Think about that the next time you see a doom-and-gloom thread about the popularity and future of SC2.
On August 20 2013 00:00 Spectralx wrote: Region lock, and Starcraft would have 10 times less problems. All scenes would have a chance to grow. GL all,
LOL yes because region locking would obviously solve the problems of WCS NA players not being able to get German Visas.
Also if you region lock NA, where do the Chinese and Australians go? How is this promoting growth in "all scenes" when certain regions don't even have a wcs.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
No.
I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere.
Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
In certain cases, you need to have your ticket before you can get your visa (just been through this). So, awesome you never had any problems, but let's not falsely accuse Jim of anything.
I like Jim. The only thing I'm accusing him of is not planning in advance. Yes 17 year olds make mistakes. But that doesn't mean that anyone should be able to repetedly forfeit tournament spots because of their own lack of forward thinking.
So you buy your ticket in advance, and get your Visa. And if you don't qualify or whatever, you cancel your ticket and pay the cancellation fee. Isn't this better than not going to the WCS finals?
It does not work that way for non-first-world-countries. You need a reason for applying for a Visa, and "I might attend this event" is not enough. He is also not backed by a company (like you are) until he qualifies. So he cannot get the Visa before he qualifies.
With a region lock, it would be hard to justify even having WCS NA in the current format, or at all. Maybe with a significantly reduced prize pool and 1-2 qualifier slots at best.
Having a China/SEA WCS would probably be a better option then.
This visa bullshit has to go! Wherever you were born it was by chance. Can't see any reason why people shouldn't be allowed to move freely. If, at all, there could be some criteria if it comes to settling down - imo: even that is unnecessary.
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
The tournament loses integrity every time a player forfeits. Simple as that.
I really don't think this is as big as you're trying to make it sound. This is awful for Jim, and it sucks for all his fans who wanted to see him play. In every other aspect, it's a minor inconvenience. The next best guy gets the spot. It's not a big deal, really, and it doesn't threaten the integrity of the tournament nearly as much as banning a top player from competing would.
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
The tournament loses integrity every time a player forfeits. Simple as that.
You lose integrity every time you make a post on TL.net. Simple as that.
EDIT: The thread has now been updated with a bit of info from iG.Edison's blog.
Chinese is not my mother tongue so it took me a while to translate that. Let me know if you guys think my translation was erroneous.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
No.
I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere.
Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
How did applying for Visa’s go when you started your business at age 17 and you were traveling without your parents?
On August 20 2013 00:33 DinoMight wrote:
On August 20 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
I think you're wrong. If he is a professional gamer, then acquiring a visa to go compete in the biggest tournament he's ever played in should be kind of a priority.
There have been so many spots forfeited to visa issues lately that I think something needs to be done about it.
Something was done. He forfeited his spot, he can’t play and doesn’t get prize money or WCS points. He will be able to play in the US region and finals for next season, because he has been approved for a visa in the US and is already qualified. The problem has been solved.
I don't see how age has anything to do with it. He's a professional and is competing against people of all ages - thus he should be held accountable to the same standards as everyone else.
And no, something was not done. Not being able to play or receive prize money is just a consequence of him failing to prepare for a tournament. When you say problem solved, you are addressing the problem of Jim being able to compete, not the problem of gamers consistently failing to plan properly for tournaments by getting Visas ahead of time.
I may or may not have to travel to South America for business next month. I don't know yet, but I'm getting my Visas now just in case. It's called planning ahead.
So when you applied for your first visa, did you prepare all your own documents and research the laws on how to apply for each country? Were you traveling to countries that were not part of the Visa Waiver program? Did anyone at your firm assist you in getting the visa? Because these are all things Jim had to do on his own. He doesn’t have a firm assisting him. He also doesn’t have the ability to say “I am on a business meeting,” since he doesn’t have an employer that is sending him over seas. I know it might be hard to believe, but it is harder for him to get a visa than it is for you.
i heard calling and asking is hard to do, cause all your questions above are all solved by calling and asking.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
No.
I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere.
Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
In certain cases, you need to have your ticket before you can get your visa (just been through this). So, awesome you never had any problems, but let's not falsely accuse Jim of anything.
I like Jim. The only thing I'm accusing him of is not planning in advance. Yes 17 year olds make mistakes. But that doesn't mean that anyone should be able to repetedly forfeit tournament spots because of their own lack of forward thinking.
So you buy your ticket in advance, and get your Visa. And if you don't qualify or whatever, you cancel your ticket and pay the cancellation fee. Isn't this better than not going to the WCS finals?
It does not work that way for non-first-world-countries. You need a reason for applying for a Visa, and "I might attend this event" is not enough. He is also not backed by a company (like you are) until he qualifies. So he cannot get the Visa before he qualifies.
blizzard could do a letter saying that jim is invited to go, but if jim doesnt qualify he can just not use the visa. a waste of money, but u gotta do what u gotta do.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
No.
I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere.
Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
In certain cases, you need to have your ticket before you can get your visa (just been through this). So, awesome you never had any problems, but let's not falsely accuse Jim of anything.
I like Jim. The only thing I'm accusing him of is not planning in advance. Yes 17 year olds make mistakes. But that doesn't mean that anyone should be able to repetedly forfeit tournament spots because of their own lack of forward thinking.
So you buy your ticket in advance, and get your Visa. And if you don't qualify or whatever, you cancel your ticket and pay the cancellation fee. Isn't this better than not going to the WCS finals?
It does not work that way for non-first-world-countries. You need a reason for applying for a Visa, and "I might attend this event" is not enough. He is also not backed by a company (like you are) until he qualifies. So he cannot get the Visa before he qualifies.
blizzard could do a letter saying that jim is invited to go, but if jim doesnt qualify he can just not use the visa. a waste of money, but u gotta do what u gotta do.
Check the OP, guys. The problem has been revealed.
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
The tournament loses integrity every time a player forfeits. Simple as that.
I really don't think this is as big as you're trying to make it sound. This is awful for Jim, and it sucks for all his fans who wanted to see him play. In every other aspect, it's a minor inconvenience. The next best guy gets the spot. It's not a big deal, really, and it doesn't threaten the integrity of the tournament nearly as much as banning a top player from competing would.
but it could not be the next best guy. alive is next to go, but who's to say that none of the players that jim beat before he beat alive couldn't have beaten alive for the spot?
I wonder why blizzard (or other tournament host) doesn't formally invite everyone who finishes on top 32 if qualify is top 16 and then everyone can apply for visa in a timely manner, if they deem there chances to advance is high enough. This would also not create a huge problem for the next guy who needs a visa fast due to the fact that they got a late invite ?
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
No.
I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere.
Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
How did applying for Visa’s go when you started your business at age 17 and you were traveling without your parents?
On August 20 2013 00:33 DinoMight wrote:
On August 20 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
I think you're wrong. If he is a professional gamer, then acquiring a visa to go compete in the biggest tournament he's ever played in should be kind of a priority.
There have been so many spots forfeited to visa issues lately that I think something needs to be done about it.
Something was done. He forfeited his spot, he can’t play and doesn’t get prize money or WCS points. He will be able to play in the US region and finals for next season, because he has been approved for a visa in the US and is already qualified. The problem has been solved.
I don't see how age has anything to do with it. He's a professional and is competing against people of all ages - thus he should be held accountable to the same standards as everyone else.
And no, something was not done. Not being able to play or receive prize money is just a consequence of him failing to prepare for a tournament. When you say problem solved, you are addressing the problem of Jim being able to compete, not the problem of gamers consistently failing to plan properly for tournaments by getting Visas ahead of time.
I may or may not have to travel to South America for business next month. I don't know yet, but I'm getting my Visas now just in case. It's called planning ahead.
So when you applied for your first visa, did you prepare all your own documents and research the laws on how to apply for each country? Were you traveling to countries that were not part of the Visa Waiver program? Did anyone at your firm assist you in getting the visa? Because these are all things Jim had to do on his own. He doesn’t have a firm assisting him. He also doesn’t have the ability to say “I am on a business meeting,” since he doesn’t have an employer that is sending him over seas. I know it might be hard to believe, but it is harder for him to get a visa than it is for you.
i heard calling and asking is hard to do, cause all your questions above are all solved by calling and asking.
Its the German Embassy, not Verizon. They might not be huge into answering questions for people applying for Visa's over the phone. They had to wait several hours just to get an appointment with the guy at the US Embassy. Also, he would need to call the one in China, because the one in the US isn't likely to have someone who speaks Chinese. Unless Jim speaks German.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
Alive (the person who lost to jim) got the spot. You should read posts before you rage all over a thread.
On August 20 2013 01:12 EFBarbarossa wrote: This visa bullshit has to go! Wherever you were born it was by chance. Can't see any reason why people shouldn't be allowed to move freely. If, at all, there could be some criteria if it comes to settling down - imo: even that is unnecessary.
Sorry, but this is complete bullshit. Think of the consequences, please.
@Topic You cannot blame Jim. His spot goes to the next competitor, wheres the problem?? The tournament loosing integrity? WHAT??
The REALLY interesting thing is: So many people on TL raged against US politics, government and visa office as jims visa to USA was denied. Germany denied, too, but there is no hate and no blaming geman politics, office and government.
This is how it works...
BTW: We need a region lock AND a WCS China/SEA, but not determind by passport (nationality) but by resident. You play where you live (since at least 6 months, or so...)
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
It's not lack of planning, it's your country refusing to let him enter. Blame on your government, not on the poor guy. You can't start trying to get visa before you know you'll get to the event, or before the date is anounced. Sadly, the time frame to be sure you get a visa is longer than what you have, between the moment you know you'll go to the tournament and the tournament itself.
Even as an European, getting a (non tourism) American visa is really long.
What you are basically suggesting is excluding Chinese players from the WCS system.
Since policies between China and the US are not likely to change, what we really need is a WCS China. Maybe with a small number of players to the world finals, maybe not since it may attract Koreans (probably less lag on the online part).
On August 20 2013 00:00 Spectralx wrote: Region lock, and Starcraft would have 10 times less problems. All scenes would have a chance to grow. GL all,
There is no region lock question to be raised in this thread. Chinese play in NA because they don't have a WCS region. Well prepared Korean players have no problem getting their visas, because they are backed by American organisations and are from a country facilitating the process. (violet is an exception, when for the Chinese, it's pretty much the norm).
From EU I think you can go to US without VISA and stay there for 9 or 10 days? ofc, you are not allowed to earn money I think :D
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
No.
I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere.
Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
How did applying for Visa’s go when you started your business at age 17 and you were traveling without your parents?
On August 20 2013 00:33 DinoMight wrote:
On August 20 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
I think you're wrong. If he is a professional gamer, then acquiring a visa to go compete in the biggest tournament he's ever played in should be kind of a priority.
There have been so many spots forfeited to visa issues lately that I think something needs to be done about it.
Something was done. He forfeited his spot, he can’t play and doesn’t get prize money or WCS points. He will be able to play in the US region and finals for next season, because he has been approved for a visa in the US and is already qualified. The problem has been solved.
I don't see how age has anything to do with it. He's a professional and is competing against people of all ages - thus he should be held accountable to the same standards as everyone else.
And no, something was not done. Not being able to play or receive prize money is just a consequence of him failing to prepare for a tournament. When you say problem solved, you are addressing the problem of Jim being able to compete, not the problem of gamers consistently failing to plan properly for tournaments by getting Visas ahead of time.
I may or may not have to travel to South America for business next month. I don't know yet, but I'm getting my Visas now just in case. It's called planning ahead.
So when you applied for your first visa, did you prepare all your own documents and research the laws on how to apply for each country? Were you traveling to countries that were not part of the Visa Waiver program? Did anyone at your firm assist you in getting the visa? Because these are all things Jim had to do on his own. He doesn’t have a firm assisting him. He also doesn’t have the ability to say “I am on a business meeting,” since he doesn’t have an employer that is sending him over seas. I know it might be hard to believe, but it is harder for him to get a visa than it is for you.
i heard calling and asking is hard to do, cause all your questions above are all solved by calling and asking.
Its the German Embassy, not Verizon. They might not be huge into answering questions for people applying for Visa's over the phone. They had to wait several hours just to get an appointment with the guy at the US Embassy. Also, he would need to call the one in China, because the one in the US isn't likely to have someone who speaks Chinese. Unless Jim speaks German.
getting an appointment is a lot different than asking what the requirements are for applying for a visa.
Blizzard should have set-up rules and guidelines, anticipating players requiring Visa to attend WCS that is outside of his/her residence.
Had we known Jim's inability to go, he should not have been allowed to participate in NA Primer final. Let's face it, most gov. isn't too eager to approve visa applications from China. If you and your gov. can't figure that out, don't waste other people's time and ruin other people's opportunity.
While this is rather unfortunate for Jim, I hope this incident will serve as a reminder to every Chinese gamer and their managers to not take the visa issue lightly. Planning to obtain a visa within less than two weeks is just calling for catastrophe...
edit:
On August 20 2013 01:38 twndomn wrote: Blizzard should have set-up rules and guidelines, anticipating players requiring Visa to attend WCS that is outside of his/her residence.
Had we known Jim's inability to go, he should not have been allowed to participate in NA Primer final. Let's face it, most gov. isn't too eager to approve visa applications from China. If you and your gov. can't figure that out, don't waste other people's time and ruin other people's opportunity.
What the fuck. Don't put Germany on the same level with countries who happily decline visas out of arbitrary reasons. Germany did not decline Jim's visa. Jim (and his manager) failed to provide the necessary documents in order to apply for the visa in the first place...
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
No.
I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere.
Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
How did applying for Visa’s go when you started your business at age 17 and you were traveling without your parents?
On August 20 2013 00:33 DinoMight wrote:
On August 20 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
I think you're wrong. If he is a professional gamer, then acquiring a visa to go compete in the biggest tournament he's ever played in should be kind of a priority.
There have been so many spots forfeited to visa issues lately that I think something needs to be done about it.
Something was done. He forfeited his spot, he can’t play and doesn’t get prize money or WCS points. He will be able to play in the US region and finals for next season, because he has been approved for a visa in the US and is already qualified. The problem has been solved.
I don't see how age has anything to do with it. He's a professional and is competing against people of all ages - thus he should be held accountable to the same standards as everyone else.
And no, something was not done. Not being able to play or receive prize money is just a consequence of him failing to prepare for a tournament. When you say problem solved, you are addressing the problem of Jim being able to compete, not the problem of gamers consistently failing to plan properly for tournaments by getting Visas ahead of time.
I may or may not have to travel to South America for business next month. I don't know yet, but I'm getting my Visas now just in case. It's called planning ahead.
So when you applied for your first visa, did you prepare all your own documents and research the laws on how to apply for each country? Were you traveling to countries that were not part of the Visa Waiver program? Did anyone at your firm assist you in getting the visa? Because these are all things Jim had to do on his own. He doesn’t have a firm assisting him. He also doesn’t have the ability to say “I am on a business meeting,” since he doesn’t have an employer that is sending him over seas. I know it might be hard to believe, but it is harder for him to get a visa than it is for you.
i heard calling and asking is hard to do, cause all your questions above are all solved by calling and asking.
Its the German Embassy, not Verizon. They might not be huge into answering questions for people applying for Visa's over the phone. They had to wait several hours just to get an appointment with the guy at the US Embassy. Also, he would need to call the one in China, because the one in the US isn't likely to have someone who speaks Chinese. Unless Jim speaks German.
getting an appointment is a lot different than asking what the requirements are for applying for a visa.
Once again, they are not Verizon. Embassys have shit to do, they don't just sit around all day waiting for people to call them asking questions about Visas. And they may have asked about what was needed, but the form required for minors to visit the country did not come up during the discussion. The guy is 17 years old, give him a break.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
No.
I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere.
Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
How did applying for Visa’s go when you started your business at age 17 and you were traveling without your parents?
On August 20 2013 00:33 DinoMight wrote:
On August 20 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
I think you're wrong. If he is a professional gamer, then acquiring a visa to go compete in the biggest tournament he's ever played in should be kind of a priority.
There have been so many spots forfeited to visa issues lately that I think something needs to be done about it.
Something was done. He forfeited his spot, he can’t play and doesn’t get prize money or WCS points. He will be able to play in the US region and finals for next season, because he has been approved for a visa in the US and is already qualified. The problem has been solved.
I don't see how age has anything to do with it. He's a professional and is competing against people of all ages - thus he should be held accountable to the same standards as everyone else.
And no, something was not done. Not being able to play or receive prize money is just a consequence of him failing to prepare for a tournament. When you say problem solved, you are addressing the problem of Jim being able to compete, not the problem of gamers consistently failing to plan properly for tournaments by getting Visas ahead of time.
I may or may not have to travel to South America for business next month. I don't know yet, but I'm getting my Visas now just in case. It's called planning ahead.
So when you applied for your first visa, did you prepare all your own documents and research the laws on how to apply for each country? Were you traveling to countries that were not part of the Visa Waiver program? Did anyone at your firm assist you in getting the visa? Because these are all things Jim had to do on his own. He doesn’t have a firm assisting him. He also doesn’t have the ability to say “I am on a business meeting,” since he doesn’t have an employer that is sending him over seas. I know it might be hard to believe, but it is harder for him to get a visa than it is for you.
i heard calling and asking is hard to do, cause all your questions above are all solved by calling and asking.
Its the German Embassy, not Verizon. They might not be huge into answering questions for people applying for Visa's over the phone. They had to wait several hours just to get an appointment with the guy at the US Embassy. Also, he would need to call the one in China, because the one in the US isn't likely to have someone who speaks Chinese. Unless Jim speaks German.
getting an appointment is a lot different than asking what the requirements are for applying for a visa.
Once again, they are not Verizon. Embassys have shit to do, they don't just sit around all day waiting for people to call them asking questions about Visas. And they may have asked about what was needed, but the form required for minors to visit the country did not come up during the discussion. The guy is 17 years old, give him a break.
they are there to answer questions, this is the gateway for people from other countries to try and get into germany and you think they wont answer questions? i dunno about china but i doubt a german embassy in china would be operated much different than one in canada.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
No.
I work in finance and often have to travel for work. Part of being a responsible professional is planning ahead of time and figuring out if you need a visa to go somewhere.
Players dropping out of tournaments because they forgot to apply for a visa undermines e-sports and is bad for the tournaments.
How did applying for Visa’s go when you started your business at age 17 and you were traveling without your parents?
On August 20 2013 00:33 DinoMight wrote:
On August 20 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote: [quote]
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
I think you're wrong. If he is a professional gamer, then acquiring a visa to go compete in the biggest tournament he's ever played in should be kind of a priority.
There have been so many spots forfeited to visa issues lately that I think something needs to be done about it.
Something was done. He forfeited his spot, he can’t play and doesn’t get prize money or WCS points. He will be able to play in the US region and finals for next season, because he has been approved for a visa in the US and is already qualified. The problem has been solved.
I don't see how age has anything to do with it. He's a professional and is competing against people of all ages - thus he should be held accountable to the same standards as everyone else.
And no, something was not done. Not being able to play or receive prize money is just a consequence of him failing to prepare for a tournament. When you say problem solved, you are addressing the problem of Jim being able to compete, not the problem of gamers consistently failing to plan properly for tournaments by getting Visas ahead of time.
I may or may not have to travel to South America for business next month. I don't know yet, but I'm getting my Visas now just in case. It's called planning ahead.
So when you applied for your first visa, did you prepare all your own documents and research the laws on how to apply for each country? Were you traveling to countries that were not part of the Visa Waiver program? Did anyone at your firm assist you in getting the visa? Because these are all things Jim had to do on his own. He doesn’t have a firm assisting him. He also doesn’t have the ability to say “I am on a business meeting,” since he doesn’t have an employer that is sending him over seas. I know it might be hard to believe, but it is harder for him to get a visa than it is for you.
i heard calling and asking is hard to do, cause all your questions above are all solved by calling and asking.
Its the German Embassy, not Verizon. They might not be huge into answering questions for people applying for Visa's over the phone. They had to wait several hours just to get an appointment with the guy at the US Embassy. Also, he would need to call the one in China, because the one in the US isn't likely to have someone who speaks Chinese. Unless Jim speaks German.
getting an appointment is a lot different than asking what the requirements are for applying for a visa.
Once again, they are not Verizon. Embassys have shit to do, they don't just sit around all day waiting for people to call them asking questions about Visas. And they may have asked about what was needed, but the form required for minors to visit the country did not come up during the discussion. The guy is 17 years old, give him a break.
they are there to answer questions, this is the gateway for people from other countries to try and get into germany and you think they wont answer questions? i dunno about china but i doubt a german embassy in china would be operated much different than one in canada.
So the Embassy answers question, great. What does this prove again? No one is saying that there is no way that Jim could have known he needed the form. No one is making the argument that it is anyones fault but his. The point people are making is that its not something he should be punished for. It was a mistake and those happen from time to time. Are we really going to jump up and down on him and say "You should have known better, tried hard and planned better."? Is that a thing we really need to do?
This seems to me that IG has a horrendous track record of planning ahead. Didn't they fuck themselves with the American visas too?
When I was getting ready to go to Korea, I researched ahead and figured out everything I would need to get before I ever even set foot in a Korean embassy asking for a work visa. Apparently, that makes me twice the planner Jim and his coach are.
I mean, temporary work visas aren't that hard to get if you follow the rules. The coach even mentioned on weibo how ESL had a way to get the visa within 3 work days.
EDIT: And yeah, this is getting to the point where players should be punished if they go through a tournament and are not able to research ahead and gather the needed visa paperwork as soon as the Ro32 starts. It's not like Jim didn't fucking know he'd need a visa to go to Cologne.
Just put in the contracts "All players who enter the Ro32 must make themselves available for the Finals to be held in [place]. If the player qualifies for but is not able to attend said Finals, then the player therefore forfeits his eligibility to compete in [next tournament's name, say TSL5]. If the Finals venue is changed unexpectedly, and all reasonable steps are taken to attend but the player must still miss the Finals, then his eligibility is still intact and his position in said tournament will be awarded to the next highest place competitor."
This isn't some "Oh woah, he could have never expected this!" situation. I guarantee you that if you go to the German consulate in China (or it's equivalent. Fuck, google that shit if you have to), all of this information is online. Hell, common sense tells you that anyone under the age of 18 needs their parent's permission before they GET A GOVERNMENT'S PERMISSION TO ENTER A FOREIGN COUNTRY.
These visa issues really hurt. It sucks to see great players like Jim and Violet unable to compete because of this. I really hope Blizzard puts in a lot of work to make these things easier for the players. Good luck to Alive in the group and good luck to Jim. I hope to see him again in the future. He showed some great games.
On August 20 2013 01:12 EFBarbarossa wrote: This visa bullshit has to go! Wherever you were born it was by chance. Can't see any reason why people shouldn't be allowed to move freely. If, at all, there could be some criteria if it comes to settling down - imo: even that is unnecessary.
Sorry, but this is complete bullshit. Think of the consequences, please.
@Topic You cannot blame Jim. His spot goes to the next competitor, wheres the problem?? The tournament loosing integrity? WHAT??
The REALLY interesting thing is: So many people on TL raged against US politics, government and visa office as jims visa to USA was denied. Germany denied, too, but there is no hate and no blaming geman politics, office and government.
This is how it works...
BTW: We need a region lock AND a WCS China/SEA, but not determind by passport (nationality) but by resident. You play where you live (since at least 6 months, or so...)
cu
After reading it i figured Jim wasnt denied. He just didn't have all the right papers ready. And he would have to reaply the right papers in the birthplace of his mother. There was just not enough time to do it. Jim would have get the visa to Germany - ESL said they could help him get in 3-4 work days and i believe they would be capable to do it. Hell we managed to get Russian visa (invitational letter and so on) in less than 24h when one of our team players (normal sport) had to be replaced (due to injury) for a tournament. But there was not enough time to do all the paper work in China for it since Jim is still a kid and needed a parent approval.
On August 20 2013 02:07 Aunvilgod wrote: That is great for Scarlett. Alive has been rather bad lately, at least compared to what he was when he was not on EG.
Well, there are still MMA and Maru. Granted Maru's TvZ looks like Bomber's TvP(yeap, god level on 1 day, crap level on another), but still. And it's not like Scarlett has 4-1 h2h against Jim anyway :D
On August 20 2013 02:01 Mauldo wrote: This seems to me that IG has a horrendous track record of planning ahead. Didn't they fuck themselves with the American visas too?
When I was getting ready to go to Korea, I researched ahead and figured out everything I would need to get before I ever even set foot in a Korean embassy asking for a work visa. Apparently, that makes me twice the planner Jim and his coach are.
I mean, temporary work visas aren't that hard to get if you follow the rules. The coach even mentioned on weibo how ESL had a way to get the visa within 3 work days.
Waiver visas for people in the US are much easier to get than in China, so there is that. Also, a work visa is hard to get in general, but there is more build to up to getting it and you have the employer at the other end vouching for you.
I do agree that IG needs to step up its game and get ahead of these Visa problems for future events.
On August 20 2013 02:02 Savko wrote: These visa issues really hurt. It sucks to see great players like Jim and Violet unable to compete because of this. I really hope Blizzard puts in a lot of work to make these things easier for the players. Good luck to Alive in the group and good luck to Jim. I hope to see him again in the future. He showed some great games.
Violent is unable to obtain a visa because he stayed in US too long with the last one. Its his fault and he should be suspended a season for it. This is how real competition works.
On August 20 2013 02:02 Savko wrote: These visa issues really hurt. It sucks to see great players like Jim and Violet unable to compete because of this. I really hope Blizzard puts in a lot of work to make these things easier for the players. Good luck to Alive in the group and good luck to Jim. I hope to see him again in the future. He showed some great games.
Violent is unable to obtain a visa because he stayed in US too long with the last one. Its his fault and he should be suspended a season for it. This is how real competition works.
The WCS system has taken care of that. Because he started in the NA, he gets fewer points for the season. I do agree that he should be removed from NA and if he wants to play, he needs to do it in KR without WCS points.
Why is it so hard for Chinese people to get visas? Is it cause other countries think they are more likely to stay there illegally than, say, Koreans or people from other countries?
If you basically can't get visa unless you're sure to have a spot, shouldn't WCS have planned this as much as Jim did, and not have a qualifying tournament end only 11 days before the tournament starts on another continent?
Not trying to flame WCS. Just saying this isn't the same thing as Violet constantly forfeiting for the same reasons, and we shouldn't be flaming Jim just because visa issues are trendy.
This thread is so laughable! Getting a VISA in advance? Really?? First of all this is probably impossible, you need a reason, and a good one, to get a VISA, you guys are just too used to living in first world countries! Second, buying a VISA in advance is throwing (a lot of) money away, you have to be either rich or have a really good team/sponsor for this. The same for buying plane tickets in advance, the cheaper tickets are non refundable. So stop thinking everyone can spend hundreds of dollars in promises and get real! When I was Jim's age I had no money and my parents would never buy a ticket/pay VISA unless they were sure I would use it, and even if I was sure I would use it, they could simply not have the money to buy anyway...(middle class, Brazil)
tldr: the world is not made of money, if you have it, consider yourself lucky and stop suggesting people to buy things with a slight probablity of return in advance, no one in the real world makes this (real world == 99% of the population).
On August 20 2013 02:28 Alk... wrote: This thread is so laughable! Getting a VISA in advance? Really?? First of all this is probably impossible, you need a reason, and a good one, to get a VISA, you guys are just too used to living in first world countries! Second, buying a VISA in advance is throwing (a lot of) money away, you have to be either rich or have a really good team/sponsor for this. The same for buying plane tickets in advance, the cheaper tickets are non refundable. So stop thinking everyone can spend hundreds of dollars in promises and get real! When I was Jim's age I had no money and my parents would never buy a ticket/pay VISA unless they were sure I would use it, and even if I was sure I would use it, they could simply not have the money to buy anyway...(middle class, Brazil)
tldr: the world is not made of money, if you have it, consider yourself lucky and stop suggesting people to buy things with a slight probablity of return in advance, no one in the real world makes this (real world == 99% of the population).
Slight return? He gets at least $5000 just for showing up to this one!
On August 20 2013 02:28 Alk... wrote: This thread is so laughable! Getting a VISA in advance? Really?? First of all this is probably impossible, you need a reason, and a good one, to get a VISA, you guys are just too used to living in first world countries! Second, buying a VISA in advance is throwing (a lot of) money away, you have to be either rich or have a really good team/sponsor for this. The same for buying plane tickets in advance, the cheaper tickets are non refundable. So stop thinking everyone can spend hundreds of dollars in promises and get real! When I was Jim's age I had no money and my parents would never buy a ticket/pay VISA unless they were sure I would use it, and even if I was sure I would use it, they could simply not have the money to buy anyway...(middle class, Brazil)
tldr: the world is not made of money, if you have it, consider yourself lucky and stop suggesting people to buy things with a slight probablity of return in advance, no one in the real world makes this (real world == 99% of the population).
Thank you, I love you. I suspect most of these kids have never travelled outside of their own country, unless it was to a country where they never needed a visa.
On August 20 2013 02:28 Alk... wrote: This thread is so laughable! Getting a VISA in advance? Really?? First of all this is probably impossible, you need a reason, and a good one, to get a VISA, you guys are just too used to living in first world countries! Second, buying a VISA in advance is throwing (a lot of) money away, you have to be either rich or have a really good team/sponsor for this. The same for buying plane tickets in advance, the cheaper tickets are non refundable. So stop thinking everyone can spend hundreds of dollars in promises and get real! When I was Jim's age I had no money and my parents would never buy a ticket/pay VISA unless they were sure I would use it, and even if I was sure I would use it, they could simply not have the money to buy anyway...(middle class, Brazil)
tldr: the world is not made of money, if you have it, consider yourself lucky and stop suggesting people to buy things with a slight probablity of return in advance, no one in the real world makes this (real world == 99% of the population).
Slight return? He gets at least $5000 just for showing up to this one!
You didn't really think about that before you wrote it, did you? Getting tickets in advice is not the issue in this case.
Comments should be deactivated for some News...some comments are just ridiculous, and some more are just plain stupid.
PS: Visa are not for free, Visa are not gifted to you whenever you want them, Visa are not "ezpz" obtained with filling out a bunch of formulas, you can do everything right and still not get it (at all or in time). Face it. Story done.
On August 20 2013 02:28 Alk... wrote: This thread is so laughable! Getting a VISA in advance? Really?? First of all this is probably impossible, you need a reason, and a good one, to get a VISA, you guys are just too used to living in first world countries! Second, buying a VISA in advance is throwing (a lot of) money away, you have to be either rich or have a really good team/sponsor for this. The same for buying plane tickets in advance, the cheaper tickets are non refundable. So stop thinking everyone can spend hundreds of dollars in promises and get real! When I was Jim's age I had no money and my parents would never buy a ticket/pay VISA unless they were sure I would use it, and even if I was sure I would use it, they could simply not have the money to buy anyway...(middle class, Brazil)
tldr: the world is not made of money, if you have it, consider yourself lucky and stop suggesting people to buy things with a slight probablity of return in advance, no one in the real world makes this (real world == 99% of the population).
Thank you, I love you. I suspect most of these kids have never travelled outside of their own country, unless it was to a country where they never needed a visa.
I'm with you, bro.
I've been to seven different countries in my life, going to my 8th on Friday, and 2 of them were not of the first world sort.
On August 20 2013 02:13 Just_a_Moth wrote: Why is it so hard for Chinese people to get visas? Is it cause other countries think they are more likely to stay there illegally than, say, Koreans or people from other countries?
On August 20 2013 02:28 Alk... wrote: This thread is so laughable! Getting a VISA in advance? Really?? First of all this is probably impossible, you need a reason, and a good one, to get a VISA, you guys are just too used to living in first world countries! Second, buying a VISA in advance is throwing (a lot of) money away, you have to be either rich or have a really good team/sponsor for this. The same for buying plane tickets in advance, the cheaper tickets are non refundable. So stop thinking everyone can spend hundreds of dollars in promises and get real! When I was Jim's age I had no money and my parents would never buy a ticket/pay VISA unless they were sure I would use it, and even if I was sure I would use it, they could simply not have the money to buy anyway...(middle class, Brazil)
tldr: the world is not made of money, if you have it, consider yourself lucky and stop suggesting people to buy things with a slight probablity of return in advance, no one in the real world makes this (real world == 99% of the population).
Slight return? He gets at least $5000 just for showing up to this one!
Would you gamble $200 dollars, before going to WCS AM Finals, in the chance that you would get top 5 and have a return of $5000? Just IM.MVP and Inno would do that! LOL
They just need to increase time between regionals finals and season final. Think like this, if Jim had got top 5 in Korea, he would still not be able to get his VISA with such a tight schedule. I'm not a fan of the guy, but blaming him, IN THIS EXACT CASE, it is just wrong!
People saying Jim should be banned are ridiculous. It's not his fault he didn't get a visa. As for the whole walkover thing that is just because the tournament organizers are idiots. There should be a rule that says when a player forfeits that (if they can't get a replacement of course that should be the first thing they try) the group becomes a 3 person round robin format group. It is still slightly easier for the players in that group but not as much as it currently is and it doesn't favor any single person in the group.
On August 20 2013 03:28 JJH777 wrote: People saying Jim should be banned are ridiculous. It's not his fault he didn't get a visa. As for the whole walkover thing that is just because the tournament organizers are idiots. There should be a rule that says when a player forfeits that (if they can't get a replacement of course that should be the first thing they try) the group becomes a 3 person round robin format group. It is still slightly easier for the players in that group but not as much as it currently is and it doesn't favor any single person in the group.
What is the talk about walkovers? It's been said hundred times already, that alive will replace Jim.
On August 20 2013 03:28 JJH777 wrote: People saying Jim should be banned are ridiculous. It's not his fault he didn't get a visa. As for the whole walkover thing that is just because the tournament organizers are idiots. There should be a rule that says when a player forfeits that (if they can't get a replacement of course that should be the first thing they try) the group becomes a 3 person round robin format group. It is still slightly easier for the players in that group but not as much as it currently is and it doesn't favor any single person in the group.
What is the talk about walkovers? It's been said hundred times already, that alive will replace Jim.
On August 20 2013 02:41 ArcadeR wrote: Comments should be deactivated for some News...some comments are just ridiculous, and some more are just plain stupid.
PS: Visa are not for free, Visa are not gifted to you whenever you want them, Visa are not "ezpz" obtained with filling out a bunch of formulas, you can do everything right and still not get it (at all or in time). Face it. Story done.
These comments are. I wonder how many commentators have actually gotten a visa at any point in their life.
TBH I was surprised to find out Jim wasn't 18 but you know who shouldn't have been? All the WCS partners. Hopefully the Jim and Violet situations will help Blizzard and all the WCS partners figure out a system to lower the risk of this happening in the future.
GL to Alive in Cologne. Hopefully Jim can attending the next one
On August 20 2013 00:20 stratmatt wrote: Apparently a lot of TLers think its ok that the same players not only keep taking up tournament spots in the NA region, but continue to forfeit their tournament spots due to a lack of planning. Its not 'punishment' to suspend someone for a season due to forfeiting, its enforcing the intergrity of the tournament.
No, its mostly them objecting to punishing 17 year old kid for making an honest mistake when coming abroad. He does not have the assistance of an EG, TL or Kespa team to deal with these matters for him. You seem to think that punishment would somehow make Jim better or avoid these issues in the future, which is not the case. Blizzard and WCS have no control over the different visa requirements in each region or how they change based on any number of reasons. Punishing players for failing to be approved for a Visa will only harm the player and will not encourage the integrity you think it will.
No, but he is on iG, a team which has significant resources
On August 20 2013 03:43 rshawer wrote: I just realized that everything said in this thread means absolutely nothing to Blizzard... They could really care less
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
Balls of Steel, and Heart of stone.. What's rude is rude, but makes us find in our own..
Seriously though.. Your point of view is a mature one, and personally admire it,
The attitude that you later give in explanation below makes the reactions and the replies you usually get.. It represents it as if it not be as founded on a firm judgement, but rather as a reaction of disapointment and/or anger of global disorganisation or sth..
Nevertheless - this post definitely changed the usual flow of the article.. At least I for sure didn't expect it.., and - Made us just THINK instead of actually MOAN..
On August 20 2013 03:43 rshawer wrote: I just realized that everything said in this thread means absolutely nothing to Blizzard... They could really care less
They do care, but their ability to change the rules put in place by the German government are pretty limited.
On August 20 2013 03:28 JJH777 wrote: People saying Jim should be banned are ridiculous. It's not his fault he didn't get a visa. As for the whole walkover thing that is just because the tournament organizers are idiots. There should be a rule that says when a player forfeits that (if they can't get a replacement of course that should be the first thing they try) the group becomes a 3 person round robin format group. It is still slightly easier for the players in that group but not as much as it currently is and it doesn't favor any single person in the group.
What is the talk about walkovers? It's been said hundred times already, that alive will replace Jim.
Sad news that he can't attend. I was hoping that since they had an appointment, that they would've known what they needed and it wouldn't be too bad :/ GL to aLive and hopefully Jim has better luck next time! Must be rough to get to the finals only to miss them due to visa issues ><
On August 20 2013 02:41 ArcadeR wrote: Comments should be deactivated for some News...some comments are just ridiculous, and some more are just plain stupid.
PS: Visa are not for free, Visa are not gifted to you whenever you want them, Visa are not "ezpz" obtained with filling out a bunch of formulas, you can do everything right and still not get it (at all or in time). Face it. Story done.
These comments are. I wonder how many commentators have actually gotten a visa at any point in their life.
I am 100% certain that all the casters at last year's Battle.net World Championships in Shanghai were on tourist visas and were either A) Paid under the table in Shanghai (illegal) or B) Paid after they went home (which is technically ok).
On August 20 2013 02:13 Just_a_Moth wrote: Why is it so hard for Chinese people to get visas? Is it cause other countries think they are more likely to stay there illegally than, say, Koreans or people from other countries?
This is, unfortunately, partially the case.
Yeah, just recently there was a piece in the news about the police in Spain and France busting a Chinese trafficking ring
That being said, I have traveled a lot in my line of work, and the worst place to get a visa for in my experience was Sudan, so I would strongly recommend Blizzard, or anyone else for that matter, not to organize an international even there.
I think it has been clear to absolutely everyone involved that this season's final will take place in Germany for a long time. Thus there is no excuse for not knowing exactly what paperwork needs to be done for a visa application. That is called doing one's homework, and this apparently wasn't done. Visa applications can get rejected nevertheless, but that is a different story.
However, if players find it difficult to process a visa application due to short time between online and offline parts of the tournament they are participating in, then it can be argued that the organizer of the event is to blame rather than the player. I don't know how long it takes for a Chinese to get a visa application processed for EU / USA, but this should be something for planners for next years WSC to take into consideration when they make the schedule. So maybe both organizers and participants should learn from this season. I don't doubt for one minute that everyone has tried very hard to solve this and earlier visa issues, but these last minutes fixes simply don't work out all the time.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: How long does it take to get a visa? Is 12 days enough time?
Maybe they (the players, managers, etc.) can apply for a visa to Country X before they know whether or not they need the visa. If the player makes the cut, the visa is ready to go. If the player doesn't make the cut, don't go. Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
All right, we are doing this again. Normally, you cannot apply for a visa if you think you “might” need it. You need to apply for a visa if you have confirmed plans to travel to that area and you need to be able to back up those plans. This does not apply to US “waiver visas” between the US and a select group of nations. But for the rest of the world, you normally need to tell them where you are going and provide proof that you are going there. Visas are a pain in the ass to get normally.
In that case, when does Blizzard announce the venue/location/country for the season finals? It seems like some visa issues might be solved if teams/players/managers are given enough time to plan for the trip. In short, if getting a visa only takes 3 days total, then the 12 day layoff should be sufficient because this seems like a time/planning issue.
On August 20 2013 02:13 Just_a_Moth wrote: Why is it so hard for Chinese people to get visas? Is it cause other countries think they are more likely to stay there illegally than, say, Koreans or people from other countries?
This is, unfortunately, partially the case.
Yeah, just recently there was a piece in the news about the police in Spain and France busting a Chinese trafficking ring
That being said, I have traveled a lot in my line of work, and the worst place to get a visa for in my experience was Sudan, so I would strongly recommend Blizzard, or anyone else for that matter, not to organize an international even there.
I think it has been clear to absolutely everyone involved that this season's final will take place in Germany for a long time. Thus there is no excuse for not knowing exactly what paperwork needs to be done for a visa application. That is called doing one's homework, and this apparently wasn't done. Visa applications can get rejected nevertheless, but that is a different story.
However, if players find it difficult to process a visa application due to short time between online and offline parts of the tournament they are participating in, then it can be argued that the organizer of the event is to blame rather than the player. I don't know how long it takes for a Chinese to get a visa application processed for EU / USA, but this should be something for planners for next years WSC to take into consideration when they make the schedule. So maybe both organizers and participants should learn from this season. I don't doubt for one minute that everyone has tried very hard to solve this and earlier visa issues, but these last minutes fixes simply don't work out all the time.
Shouldn't the player then try to make the visa in advance? I mean, yeah sure they cost a lot of money, but you really cannot expect blizzard to accomodate everybody and if you expect blizzard to accomodate somebody in advance (the dates where set probably long before Jim's participation in the finals was clear), where do you draw the line?
Moreover, I would like to add that the time would have been sufficient, had they prepared the necessary documents beforehand.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: How long does it take to get a visa? Is 12 days enough time?
Maybe they (the players, managers, etc.) can apply for a visa to Country X before they know whether or not they need the visa. If the player makes the cut, the visa is ready to go. If the player doesn't make the cut, don't go. Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
All right, we are doing this again. Normally, you cannot apply for a visa if you think you “might” need it. You need to apply for a visa if you have confirmed plans to travel to that area and you need to be able to back up those plans. This does not apply to US “waiver visas” between the US and a select group of nations. But for the rest of the world, you normally need to tell them where you are going and provide proof that you are going there. Visas are a pain in the ass to get normally.
In that case, when does Blizzard announce the venue/location/country for the season finals? It seems like some visa issues might be solved if teams/players/managers are given enough time to plan for the trip. In short, if getting a visa only takes 3 days total, then the 12 day layoff should be sufficient because this seems like a time/planning issue.
they are known for quite some time now. It's been Korea, this season is Germany, next is Canada, right?
On August 20 2013 02:13 Just_a_Moth wrote: Why is it so hard for Chinese people to get visas? Is it cause other countries think they are more likely to stay there illegally than, say, Koreans or people from other countries?
This is, unfortunately, partially the case.
Yeah, just recently there was a piece in the news about the police in Spain and France busting a Chinese trafficking ring
That being said, I have traveled a lot in my line of work, and the worst place to get a visa for in my experience was Sudan, so I would strongly recommend Blizzard, or anyone else for that matter, not to organize an international even there.
I think it has been clear to absolutely everyone involved that this season's final will take place in Germany for a long time. Thus there is no excuse for not knowing exactly what paperwork needs to be done for a visa application. That is called doing one's homework, and this apparently wasn't done. Visa applications can get rejected nevertheless, but that is a different story.
However, if players find it difficult to process a visa application due to short time between online and offline parts of the tournament they are participating in, then it can be argued that the organizer of the event is to blame rather than the player. I don't know how long it takes for a Chinese to get a visa application processed for EU / USA, but this should be something for planners for next years WSC to take into consideration when they make the schedule. So maybe both organizers and participants should learn from this season. I don't doubt for one minute that everyone has tried very hard to solve this and earlier visa issues, but these last minutes fixes simply don't work out all the time.
Shouldn't the player then try to make the visa in advance? I mean, yeah sure they cost a lot of money, but you really cannot expect blizzard to accomodate everybody and if you expect blizzard to accomodate somebody in advance (the dates where set probably long before Jim's participation in the finals was clear), where do you draw the line?
Moreover, I would like to add that the time would have been sufficient, had they prepared the necessary documents beforehand.
Yes, these are things they should all do if they can afford to do them. Also, folks should pay parking tickets on time, work out a least 4-5 times per week, study for school and always call their mother at least once a week.
Of course those things should have been done, but one thing was over looked. It was a mistake, done in error.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: How long does it take to get a visa? Is 12 days enough time?
Maybe they (the players, managers, etc.) can apply for a visa to Country X before they know whether or not they need the visa. If the player makes the cut, the visa is ready to go. If the player doesn't make the cut, don't go. Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
All right, we are doing this again. Normally, you cannot apply for a visa if you think you “might” need it. You need to apply for a visa if you have confirmed plans to travel to that area and you need to be able to back up those plans. This does not apply to US “waiver visas” between the US and a select group of nations. But for the rest of the world, you normally need to tell them where you are going and provide proof that you are going there. Visas are a pain in the ass to get normally.
In that case, when does Blizzard announce the venue/location/country for the season finals? It seems like some visa issues might be solved if teams/players/managers are given enough time to plan for the trip. In short, if getting a visa only takes 3 days total, then the 12 day layoff should be sufficient because this seems like a time/planning issue.
Actually, it´s just as easy as you describe and all people who work in organizing and partaking in these events are not as smart as you are. It´s the only logical explination for all this.
Still props to Plansix for herding the drama kittens.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: How long does it take to get a visa? Is 12 days enough time?
Maybe they (the players, managers, etc.) can apply for a visa to Country X before they know whether or not they need the visa. If the player makes the cut, the visa is ready to go. If the player doesn't make the cut, don't go. Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
All right, we are doing this again. Normally, you cannot apply for a visa if you think you “might” need it. You need to apply for a visa if you have confirmed plans to travel to that area and you need to be able to back up those plans. This does not apply to US “waiver visas” between the US and a select group of nations. But for the rest of the world, you normally need to tell them where you are going and provide proof that you are going there. Visas are a pain in the ass to get normally.
In that case, when does Blizzard announce the venue/location/country for the season finals? It seems like some visa issues might be solved if teams/players/managers are given enough time to plan for the trip. In short, if getting a visa only takes 3 days total, then the 12 day layoff should be sufficient because this seems like a time/planning issue.
they are known for quite some time now. It's been Korea, this season is Germany, next is Canada, right?
Correct. S1 is Korea, S2 is Germany, S3 is Canada, and BlizzCon is US.
Jim and Violet can compete in a seperate online tourney for "King of Visa issues". On a more serious note, this sucks. Pretty hard. But I hope aLive can do well in his place, and we don't see this kind of thing keep any more players out of tournaments!
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: How long does it take to get a visa? Is 12 days enough time?
Maybe they (the players, managers, etc.) can apply for a visa to Country X before they know whether or not they need the visa. If the player makes the cut, the visa is ready to go. If the player doesn't make the cut, don't go. Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
All right, we are doing this again. Normally, you cannot apply for a visa if you think you “might” need it. You need to apply for a visa if you have confirmed plans to travel to that area and you need to be able to back up those plans. This does not apply to US “waiver visas” between the US and a select group of nations. But for the rest of the world, you normally need to tell them where you are going and provide proof that you are going there. Visas are a pain in the ass to get normally.
In that case, when does Blizzard announce the venue/location/country for the season finals? It seems like some visa issues might be solved if teams/players/managers are given enough time to plan for the trip. In short, if getting a visa only takes 3 days total, then the 12 day layoff should be sufficient because this seems like a time/planning issue.
Actually, it´s just as easy as you describe and all people who work in organizing and partaking in these events are not as smart as you are. It´s the only logical explination for all this.
Still props to Plansix for herding the drama kittens.
I just feel really bad for Jim and think is must be really rough for him right now. I sure he is kicking his own ass and he doesn’t need a bunch of people on TL helping him do that. In the future, we can only hope that folks have minimal issues with visas. But mistakes happen.
i have to say it was predictable and a huge mistake by all the orgas AND the chinese, if you need months or so to get visa to the usa, and KNOW 2 weeks later are the global finals, well you have to make a visa for the EU too ... nothing else to say then that was just forgotten ... it felt from first second wrong suuuper sad for jim
On August 20 2013 02:13 Just_a_Moth wrote: Why is it so hard for Chinese people to get visas? Is it cause other countries think they are more likely to stay there illegally than, say, Koreans or people from other countries?
This is, unfortunately, partially the case.
Yeah, just recently there was a piece in the news about the police in Spain and France busting a Chinese trafficking ring
On August 20 2013 02:13 Just_a_Moth wrote: Why is it so hard for Chinese people to get visas? Is it cause other countries think they are more likely to stay there illegally than, say, Koreans or people from other countries?
This is, unfortunately, partially the case.
Yeah, just recently there was a piece in the news about the police in Spain and France busting a Chinese trafficking ring
That being said, I have traveled a lot in my line of work, and the worst place to get a visa for in my experience was Sudan, so I would strongly recommend Blizzard, or anyone else for that matter, not to organize an international even there.
I think it has been clear to absolutely everyone involved that this season's final will take place in Germany for a long time. Thus there is no excuse for not knowing exactly what paperwork needs to be done for a visa application. That is called doing one's homework, and this apparently wasn't done. Visa applications can get rejected nevertheless, but that is a different story.
However, if players find it difficult to process a visa application due to short time between online and offline parts of the tournament they are participating in, then it can be argued that the organizer of the event is to blame rather than the player. I don't know how long it takes for a Chinese to get a visa application processed for EU / USA, but this should be something for planners for next years WSC to take into consideration when they make the schedule. So maybe both organizers and participants should learn from this season. I don't doubt for one minute that everyone has tried very hard to solve this and earlier visa issues, but these last minutes fixes simply don't work out all the time.
Shouldn't the player then try to make the visa in advance? I mean, yeah sure they cost a lot of money, but you really cannot expect blizzard to accomodate everybody and if you expect blizzard to accomodate somebody in advance (the dates where set probably long before Jim's participation in the finals was clear), where do you draw the line?
Moreover, I would like to add that the time would have been sufficient, had they prepared the necessary documents beforehand.
Yes, visas can be applied for in advance, but you might need an accompanying letter from the organizer of the event to get a visa, making it difficult to submit an application way ahead. The organizer could, to be on the safe side, send out invitation letters to all of the Ro32 players who might need one (as suggested above), but that is of course for the organizer to decide on.
I cannot judge if the time would have been sufficient myself, but I suppose it says on the German Embassy China website how long a visa application takes. It usually does. The given time frame and add some days for weird things beyond anyone's control (the dog ate my passport!!) should be enough I suppose.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: How long does it take to get a visa? Is 12 days enough time?
Maybe they (the players, managers, etc.) can apply for a visa to Country X before they know whether or not they need the visa. If the player makes the cut, the visa is ready to go. If the player doesn't make the cut, don't go. Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
All right, we are doing this again. Normally, you cannot apply for a visa if you think you “might” need it. You need to apply for a visa if you have confirmed plans to travel to that area and you need to be able to back up those plans. This does not apply to US “waiver visas” between the US and a select group of nations. But for the rest of the world, you normally need to tell them where you are going and provide proof that you are going there. Visas are a pain in the ass to get normally.
In that case, when does Blizzard announce the venue/location/country for the season finals? It seems like some visa issues might be solved if teams/players/managers are given enough time to plan for the trip. In short, if getting a visa only takes 3 days total, then the 12 day layoff should be sufficient because this seems like a time/planning issue.
Actually, it´s just as easy as you describe and all people who work in organizing and partaking in these events are not as smart as you are. It´s the only logical explination for all this.
Still props to Plansix for herding the drama kittens.
I just feel really bad for Jim and think is must be really rough for him right now. I sure he is kicking his own ass and he doesn’t need a bunch of people on TL helping him do that. In the future, we can only hope that folks have minimal issues with visas. But mistakes happen.
It was even worse for Russian players. There should be a liquipedia page devoted solely to the tournaments BratOK missed because of Visa issues. It´s not a new problem, it just didn´t get as much spotlight as WCS gets naturally.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
Is this actually Jim's fault?
Regardless, it's a pity that he had to forfeit his spot. I know the Chinese players have a pretty big following in the community. Best of luck to Alive though!
he's not saying it's jim's fault
There definitely needs to be a system in place for taking care of players who can't acquire visas, because it takes away opportunities from other players and makes for shitty tournament situations (walkover lottery against viOLet 2 seasons in a row).
I'd prefer it be a system where they find replacements for absent players, but given the # of players someone like violet can eliminate on his way up, suspensions for multiple violations might be necessary on top of that.
You got it backwards, There should be a way from tournament organizers to MAKE SURE every participant are present at the event and only in the worst case scenario look for replacements. And yeah, for this situation, if there's someone to be blamed, it's Blizzard. (No need to punish a poor guy who did his best but he was denied the chance to participate to the event)
You should have the visa already approved before the tournament starts in my opinion. Reading all these threads about Macseed and Jim's visa issues really shows the lack of preparation and planning in SC2 tourneys.
No approved Visa should be mean no entry into tournament
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
Is this actually Jim's fault?
Regardless, it's a pity that he had to forfeit his spot. I know the Chinese players have a pretty big following in the community. Best of luck to Alive though!
he's not saying it's jim's fault
There definitely needs to be a system in place for taking care of players who can't acquire visas, because it takes away opportunities from other players and makes for shitty tournament situations (walkover lottery against viOLet 2 seasons in a row).
I'd prefer it be a system where they find replacements for absent players, but given the # of players someone like violet can eliminate on his way up, suspensions for multiple violations might be necessary on top of that.
You got it backwards, There should be a way from tournament organizers to MAKE SURE every participant are present at the event and only in the worst case scenario look for replacements. And yeah, for this situation, if there's someone to be blamed, it's Blizzard. (No need to punish a poor guy who did his best but he was denied the chance to participate to the event)
How is Blizzard’s fault that Jim didn’t have a notarized letter from his mother to attend the WCS seasons 2 global finals? How exactly does Blizzard influence German laws or make them issue Visas?
I know this might be hard to accept for people, but it could just be an honest mistake no one is really to blame. I know we love to use our pitchforks here, but this might be the time when we just have to be bummed out and say “That’s to bad. But there is always next season.”
On August 20 2013 04:40 Orcasgt24 wrote: You should have the visa already approved before the tournament starts in my opinion. Reading all these threads about Macseed and Jim's visa issues really shows the lack of preparation and planning in SC2 tourneys.
No approved Visa should be mean no entry into tournament
If you had read the threads like you claimed, you would not be saying that because you would know they can’t get a visa in advance without some sort of invitation or proof they are going to attend.
On August 20 2013 04:40 Orcasgt24 wrote: You should have the visa already approved before the tournament starts in my opinion. Reading all these threads about Macseed and Jim's visa issues really shows the lack of preparation and planning in SC2 tourneys.
No approved Visa should be mean no entry into tournament
You have not read through any thread. Otherwise you'd know that you cannot get a visa in advance.
Another reason why region locking or residency locking are required if Blizzard wants their product not to look like a giant joke. Oh, i guess at this point nobody is taking that tournament seriously anyways. So who cares.
On August 20 2013 04:51 TigerKarl wrote: Another reason why region locking or residency locking are required if Blizzard wants their product not to look like a giant joke. Oh, i guess at this point nobody is taking that tournament seriously anyways. So who cares.
On August 20 2013 04:51 TigerKarl wrote: Another reason why region locking or residency locking are required if Blizzard wants their product not to look like a giant joke. Oh, i guess at this point nobody is taking that tournament seriously anyways. So who cares.
Lol, oh yeah. Region locking will help SOOO much in resolving issues flying to GLOBAL final.
On August 20 2013 04:51 TigerKarl wrote: Another reason why region locking or residency locking are required if Blizzard wants their product not to look like a giant joke. Oh, i guess at this point nobody is taking that tournament seriously anyways. So who cares.
Lol, oh yeah. Region locking will help SOOO much in resolving issues flying to GLOBAL final.
Damn you, why are you ruining their hate train on Blizzard and SC2 with your wrenched logic and ability to read the thread?!?
On August 20 2013 04:51 TigerKarl wrote: Another reason why region locking or residency locking are required if Blizzard wants their product not to look like a giant joke. Oh, i guess at this point nobody is taking that tournament seriously anyways. So who cares.
Lol, oh yeah. Region locking will help SOOO much in resolving issues flying to GLOBAL final.
Damn you, why are you ruining their hate train on Blizzard and SC2 with your wrenched logic and ability to read the thread?!?
At this rate, Blizzard might as well just buy a cruise ship, sail to pick up each players in their home country, then host the damn final offshore in international waters.
On August 20 2013 02:13 Just_a_Moth wrote: Why is it so hard for Chinese people to get visas? Is it cause other countries think they are more likely to stay there illegally than, say, Koreans or people from other countries?
Most people who play SC2 are from western friendly nations that allow visa waiver programs. It has less to do with staying illegally or more to do with fear of espionage, terrorism, etc.
I mean you're not wrong. China is still a poor country with significantly lower GDP per a capita than any other country that has a starcraft 2 scene. It also has the largest population of any country. This means they need to control immigration and select qualified individuals.
On August 20 2013 05:13 ramask2 wrote: At this rate, Blizzard might as well just buy a cruise ship, sail to pick up each players in their home country, then host the damn final offshore in international waters.
Ah man, the bureaucracy mess of communism. You have to go back to the original place of residency to obtain official documents (visa, passport, etc..). Here in America, dun matter what state you were born in, you can apply for those docs anywhere.
Eesh, the response from TL is so childish. People and their mighty thrones with their illadvised intentions. Develop some common sense, I beg of you.
Sad to see this news. I know we'll see a lot more Jim in the future though. Makes sense to send aLive through, even though he's not someone that I root for, still can't disagree with that. With eSports growing and learning in all parts of the world, these problems will lessen over time.
viOLet's issue is different though. He competed over and over after performing illegal actions that would 100% bar him from getting a visa. That's different from being unable to get a visa due to long and complicated processes that have never even been seen before by any SC2 player. Sure you could still blame Jim, or you could grow up and say shit happens. He's not in a bad place here.
On August 20 2013 05:46 Sky101 wrote: Ah man, the bureaucracy mess of communism. You have to go back to the original place of residency to obtain official documents (visa, passport, etc..). Here in America, dun matter what state you were born in, you can apply for those docs anywhere.
Please tell me more about your great system and on how we can apply it on a population over four times its size in which 99,9% of its population can be covered with just 150 family names.
On August 20 2013 05:46 Sky101 wrote: Ah man, the bureaucracy mess of communism. You have to go back to the original place of residency to obtain official documents (visa, passport, etc..). Here in America, dun matter what state you were born in, you can apply for those docs anywhere.
Please tell me more about your great system and on how we can apply it on a population over four times its size in which 99,9% of its population can be covered with just 150 family names.
/s
Not trying to defend the chinese government, but the bueaucratic system which is currently in place might have more reasons than just the political system.
On August 20 2013 05:46 Sky101 wrote: Ah man, the bureaucracy mess of communism. You have to go back to the original place of residency to obtain official documents (visa, passport, etc..). Here in America, dun matter what state you were born in, you can apply for those docs anywhere.
Please tell me more about your great system and on how we can apply it on a population over four times its size in which 99,9% of its population can be covered with just 150 family names.
/s
Have you ever been to any communist country outside of China?
On August 20 2013 05:54 Shinta) wrote: Eesh, the response from TL is so childish. People and their mighty thrones with their illadvised intentions. Develop some common sense, I beg of you.
Sad to see this news. I know we'll see a lot more Jim in the future though. Makes sense to send aLive through, even though he's not someone that I root for, still can't disagree with that. With eSports growing and learning in all parts of the world, these problems will lessen over time.
viOLet's issue is different though. He competed over and over after performing illegal actions that would 100% bar him from getting a visa. That's different from being unable to get a visa due to long and complicated processes that have never even been seen before by any SC2 player. Sure you could still blame Jim, or you could grow up and say shit happens. He's not in a bad place here.
On August 20 2013 05:46 Sky101 wrote: Ah man, the bureaucracy mess of communism. You have to go back to the original place of residency to obtain official documents (visa, passport, etc..). Here in America, dun matter what state you were born in, you can apply for those docs anywhere.
In the US, if for some reason your finger-prints card is not 'good enough' (and _they_ take theses, and you cannot make your fingerprints more 'readable' than they are), then they make you get an affidavit from the police station each and every place you lived in the last 5 years indicating that you did not commit any felony or serious misdemeanor ... yeah that is so much more streamlined.... and that is just _one_ example. and no, it is not a US specialty either... _every_ bureaucracies in the world are like that.... the only variation is how much money and/or connections does it take to bypass the red-tape.
On August 20 2013 05:46 Sky101 wrote: Ah man, the bureaucracy mess of communism. You have to go back to the original place of residency to obtain official documents (visa, passport, etc..). Here in America, dun matter what state you were born in, you can apply for those docs anywhere.
Please tell me more about your great system and on how we can apply it on a population over four times its size in which 99,9% of its population can be covered with just 150 family names.
/s
Well the document needed to be notarized and confirmed and confirmed to have been signed by his mother. So we just handled that by having a system to create notaries in each town. Its really not a super complicated system. In my state you need 10 names and go take a couple of classes. Then after that, you get sworn in and you get a sweet stamp and seal. Mine is pretty awesome.
On August 20 2013 05:54 Shinta) wrote: Eesh, the response from TL is so childish. People and their mighty thrones with their illadvised intentions. Develop some common sense, I beg of you.
Sad to see this news. I know we'll see a lot more Jim in the future though. Makes sense to send aLive through, even though he's not someone that I root for, still can't disagree with that. With eSports growing and learning in all parts of the world, these problems will lessen over time.
viOLet's issue is different though. He competed over and over after performing illegal actions that would 100% bar him from getting a visa. That's different from being unable to get a visa due to long and complicated processes that have never even been seen before by any SC2 player. Sure you could still blame Jim, or you could grow up and say shit happens. He's not in a bad place here.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
Then maybe those players should beat the Korean/Chinese players in fair competition instead of defaulting into the finals simply because of where they are from. Those players are "missing out" because they aren't as good. That's how competition works.
Besides, most of the time when somebody cannot attend an event, they get replaced by the next-in-line anyway. Your post reeks of racism or some pointless loyalty to exclusive competition simply due to where people were born. The best players should be able to play in the best events. I don't want to see some mediocre NA pro get hammered by a Korean only because he was born in the US or Canada. I want to see only Koreans if they are the best players. If other regions can't keep up then they need to practice more and get better, rather than expecting a tournament format to default them into the main event.
Blizzard needs to seek visas the same way that Riot did. If they want their product to be a legit, long-term industry then they should be finding ways to get their top-flight competitors around the world without issue. It is a bit disappointing that Blizzard hasn't even expressed any concern over the constant visa issues surrounding their game's tournaments.
The bullocks is all this bull shit bashing the Chinese? Bureaucratic loopholes and inconveniences happen everywhere, often created by a ruling political ideology that the vast majority of the population do not agree with, take no part in creating, nor wish to be a part of yet are forced to abide by. No country is different from any other in this respect, all that differs is the degree of maturity and efficiency of governance and ruling ideology. Form an educated opinion with evidence instead of taking every chance to insult people from a loose geopolitical association that you don't like.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
On August 20 2013 06:53 Iodem wrote: I hope they give Jim his $5000 and 500 WCS Points for 16th place...
Yes they will.
No matter the outcome, Jim will still receive all WCS Points and prize money he earned from his performance in WCS America thus far, including the League Finals. It’s also important to note that Jim will retain his Premier League placement and seeding as we head in to WCS America Season 3.
No matter the outcome, Jim will still receive all WCS Points and prize money he earned from his performance in WCS America thus far, including the League Finals. It’s also important to note that Jim will retain his Premier League placement and seeding as we head in to WCS America Season 3.
Any idea where this will put him with his WCS points? Will he qualify for this year's BWC?
sad to hear about jim, sadly though i think this will continue to happen unless there is some sort of pro active action taken by the heads of kespa/blizzard to try ease the system a bit for travelling players.. though i cant comment on how things are done im quite ignorant of visa protocol.
No matter the outcome, Jim will still receive all WCS Points and prize money he earned from his performance in WCS America thus far, including the League Finals. It’s also important to note that Jim will retain his Premier League placement and seeding as we head in to WCS America Season 3.
Per the statement, Jim will not get $5000 and 500 WCS points--he is receiving everything from his performance in WCS America thus far, including the [Premier] League Finals. The statement is not referring to the WCS Season 2 Finals. So Jim is hosed, unless Blizzard updates/clarifies/corrects their statement.
On August 20 2013 06:53 Iodem wrote: I hope they give Jim his $5000 and 500 WCS Points for 16th place...
Yes they will.
No matter the outcome, Jim will still receive all WCS Points and prize money he earned from his performance in WCS America thus far, including the League Finals. It’s also important to note that Jim will retain his Premier League placement and seeding as we head in to WCS America Season 3.
Per the statement, Jim will not get $5000 and 500 WCS points--he is receiving everything from his performance in WCS America thus far, including the [Premier] League Finals. The statement is not referring to the WCS Season 2 Finals. So Jim is hosed, unless Blizzard updates/clarifies/corrects their statement.
This is correct. "League Finals" refers to the Premier League Finals, not the Season 2 Finals.
Also, there's no point in banning people and region locking--this approach would be a poor solution for resolving this issue. If anything, having walkovers as a result of VISA issues is more of a root cause issue with Blizzard than the players' themselves (with the exception of Violet for violating his stay). If Blizzard wants this to be a global "sport", they need to think better globally and account for these difficulties when creating/managing tournaments. However, I'm not sure if they're thinking about it logistically, and instead just running and gunning with the hopes that things will be ok.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: How long does it take to get a visa? Is 12 days enough time?
Maybe they (the players, managers, etc.) can apply for a visa to Country X before they know whether or not they need the visa. If the player makes the cut, the visa is ready to go. If the player doesn't make the cut, don't go. Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
All right, we are doing this again. Normally, you cannot apply for a visa if you think you “might” need it. You need to apply for a visa if you have confirmed plans to travel to that area and you need to be able to back up those plans. This does not apply to US “waiver visas” between the US and a select group of nations. But for the rest of the world, you normally need to tell them where you are going and provide proof that you are going there. Visas are a pain in the ass to get normally.
In that case, when does Blizzard announce the venue/location/country for the season finals? It seems like some visa issues might be solved if teams/players/managers are given enough time to plan for the trip. In short, if getting a visa only takes 3 days total, then the 12 day layoff should be sufficient because this seems like a time/planning issue.
they are known for quite some time now. It's been Korea, this season is Germany, next is Canada, right?
Logistics might be a minor hurtle but, assuming it is Canada, the S3 finals shouldn't have any visa issues due to time constraints since teams, players, and managers have ample time to figure out the requirements needed to obtain a Canadian visa.
On August 20 2013 00:32 EkiMGnaW wrote: How long does it take to get a visa? Is 12 days enough time?
Maybe they (the players, managers, etc.) can apply for a visa to Country X before they know whether or not they need the visa. If the player makes the cut, the visa is ready to go. If the player doesn't make the cut, don't go. Are there negative consequences if a visa isn't used?
All right, we are doing this again. Normally, you cannot apply for a visa if you think you “might” need it. You need to apply for a visa if you have confirmed plans to travel to that area and you need to be able to back up those plans. This does not apply to US “waiver visas” between the US and a select group of nations. But for the rest of the world, you normally need to tell them where you are going and provide proof that you are going there. Visas are a pain in the ass to get normally.
In that case, when does Blizzard announce the venue/location/country for the season finals? It seems like some visa issues might be solved if teams/players/managers are given enough time to plan for the trip. In short, if getting a visa only takes 3 days total, then the 12 day layoff should be sufficient because this seems like a time/planning issue.
Actually, it´s just as easy as you describe and all people who work in organizing and partaking in these events are not as smart as you are. It´s the only logical explination for all this.
Still props to Plansix for herding the drama kittens.
Not sure if sarcasm.
I'm not trying to blame anyone or stir the drama pot in any way. I'm just curious as to why such a thing happens and what can be done to mitigate it in the future. I would hate to see visa issues becoming a mainstay in the WCS to the point where a system needs to be implemented and punishments imposed on players.
I'm very tired of players with VISA issues fucking with blizzard and WCS.
It's very sad for them. They're very talented. But, they clearly have some restrictions, they need to plan around them responsibly, and not panic and get our communities spammed with news-bites at every step of the way.
Honestly, these issues are sad but they fuck everyone over. They hurt every other player who has their shit together. They hurt the organizers, who can't finish their content being certain about which names are attending. And yes, they hurt the viewer, too.
I'd prefer these VISA issues be in the shadows. They're not our fucking problem. I love Violet, but he essentially just used the online stages of WCS for cash without ever planning to attend. And poor Jim is underage, He has to drag his mom to government offices in china over and over to try and get the correct VISA (my understanding is people from china can only be granted for one country at a time?)
But their problems aren't our problems. These VISA issues should be sorted out before they even fucking enter the tournament, not at the last minute after they've already qualified. It's unprofessional and it's a huge waste of everyone's time and energy.
And you know what I just realized? None of these issues would occur if the regions were just semi-locked, IE, require residency. I got no beef with someone like Polt shipping himself over and competing, That's a damn responsible young man. But I think for the sake of logistics it's time we put an end to the "weekend warriors". For 2014 WCS, I'll be very annoyed/disappointed if we aren't forcing residency.
On August 20 2013 08:23 mikumegurine wrote: i thought Blizzard would have given Jim the $5000 and WCS points for being 16th in the Season Finals
but they taking that away from Jim and giving it to Alive?
You know what? Maybe it would have been even better for Jim to never tell Blizzard about the VISA issues
then when the tournament starts, Jim simply doesnt show up to play
then wouldnt Jim just be DQ'd, but be in 16th place and get the $5000, and WCS points for being in 16th place?
Catch your breath and hold your outrage until you're sure what's going on with Jim.
Possible solution imo: Alive gets to attend the event (all travel expenses are sponsored by blizzard anyways) and gets all the WCS points plus prize money minus 5000$. Then a 5000$ showmatch series involving Alive and Jim.
I would have said "fairest solution", but then I realized that it is kind of his own fault / the fault of his manager that he is stuck in China... <.<
On August 20 2013 08:23 mikumegurine wrote: i thought Blizzard would have given Jim the $5000 and WCS points for being 16th in the Season Finals
but they taking that away from Jim and giving it to Alive?
You know what? Maybe it would have been even better for Jim to never tell Blizzard about the VISA issues
then when the tournament starts, Jim simply doesnt show up to play
then wouldnt Jim just be DQ'd, but be in 16th place and get the $5000, and WCS points for being in 16th place?
Catch your breath and hold your outrage until you're sure what's going on with Jim.
Possible solution imo: Alive gets to attend the event (all travel expenses are sponsored by blizzard anyways) and gets all the WCS points plus prize money minus 5000$. Then a 5000$ showmatch series involving Alive and Jim.
I would have said "fairest solution", but then I realized that it is kind of his own fault / the fault of his manager that he is stuck in China... <.<
No, Jim isn't attending, so jim shouldn't get shit. We can't give pity WCS points. All that has happened here is that he qualified, He declined attending, and so the rewards for appearing should go to the person who appears.
I'm very tired of players with VISA issues fucking with blizzard and WCS.
[...]
(Excluding the current case with Jim) Yes, it is clearly their fault if they get turned down even though they provide all the necessary documents plus official papers from blizzard. /s
edit: Though I agree with a valid visa being required to qualify for the regional / season finals. The regular season (up till the finals) should leave them with enough time to apply for one.
LAN is BS I demand online tournament!! anyway, that was obviously a stupid idea.
the right thing to do is to fly the eventual wcs winner to china and play jim. then the loser gives the winner his/her passport. wait that wouldn't work either.
I'm very tired of players with VISA issues fucking with blizzard and WCS.
[...]
(Excluding the current case with Jim) Yes, it is clearly their fault if they get turned down even though they provide all the necessary documents plus official papers from blizzard. /s
edit: Though I agree with a valid visa being required to qualify for the regional / season finals. The regular season (up till the finals) should leave them with enough time to apply for one.
But they didn't provide all the necessary documents if you read the Weibo post about the details. Jim's mom kind of screwed him over more than any other person, if we're honest.
I will say that I don't agree with region-locking but visa-checking should be instituted. Before you play in any Premier League, you should prove you have all the documentation necessary to go to the region and potentially to the season finals. It seems pretty dumb that players could qualify but then not go because of visa problems.
basically Alive (who wasnt good enough to qualify), gets to take Jim's spot, his money, and his WCS points?
What a heist!
Yes, EG is so brilliant they can cause a player to have visa issues and not go. This was put in place so early that they even pushed out Violet before he could make the whole thing a non-problem by beating both Jim and Alive.
On August 20 2013 09:06 thirtyapm wrote: LAN is BS I demand online tournament!! anyway, that was obviously a stupid idea.
the right thing to do is to fly the eventual wcs winner to china and play jim. then the loser gives the winner his/her passport. wait that wouldn't work either.
there's just no solution to this!!
Lawl, Fast and Furious style, underground SC2 games for birth certificates?
On August 20 2013 08:23 mikumegurine wrote: i thought Blizzard would have given Jim the $5000 and WCS points for being 16th in the Season Finals
but they taking that away from Jim and giving it to Alive?
You know what? Maybe it would have been even better for Jim to never tell Blizzard about the VISA issues
then when the tournament starts, Jim simply doesnt show up to play
then wouldnt Jim just be DQ'd, but be in 16th place and get the $5000, and WCS points for being in 16th place?
Catch your breath and hold your outrage until you're sure what's going on with Jim.
Possible solution imo: Alive gets to attend the event (all travel expenses are sponsored by blizzard anyways) and gets all the WCS points plus prize money minus 5000$. Then a 5000$ showmatch series involving Alive and Jim.
I would have said "fairest solution", but then I realized that it is kind of his own fault / the fault of his manager that he is stuck in China... <.<
Alive and Jim already played, and Jim won over Alive. Also, Alive has the potential to earn more than $5000 if he goes further.
And to all those against Jim, how is being from China and following Blizzard's rules and international policies the fault of Jim? If anything, Jim is essentially being mislead and is the victim as a competitor. Blizzard should account for the travel process when planning tournaments. In most cases, these travel issues are not the fault of the player, and instead moreso the responsibility of the company managing events. However, Blizzard is taking the same approach with their tournament design and management as they do in their game design--beta testing and working things out as they happen. Unfortunately, the competitors and eSports scene can potentially have setbacks as a result, like any other trouble-shooting process.
I've done business trips, and it's absolutely absurd when given a short amount of time to prepare everything (unless you have enough money and can also bribe officials). Imagine this analogy, and note the exaggeration with a one day time frame, but it helps drive the point:
As a competitor, you win a tournament (online qualifiers), and then have to fly halfway around the world the next day to the follow-up tournament (WCS NA). After the follow-up tournament, you have to fly the next day to another country for the finals (WCS Finals). Assuming you do win each tournament, given the short amount of time between tournaments, you have to buy absurdly expensive plane tickets, plan transportation and accommodations for each tournament with zero awareness or assurance for each subsequent trip, and also work within international travel policies.
Or you can spend significant money upfront and lose at the start of the first tournament and have wasted thousands of dollars, and also have tried to obtain documentation when there is zero assurance that you will get the documentation when other people applying for VISA's have 100% certainty of using it for their work.
Handling global tournaments via this approach is expensive, inefficient, and prone to frequent error. From a business perspective, Blizzard should realize this and instead better plan and forecast these potential roadblocks and incidents.
On August 20 2013 09:33 negativedge wrote: damn, this just straight up cost Jim a minimum of $5000
but I guess according to the people in this thread it's his fault for playing NA instead of signing up for that WCS China region
It doesn't even matter if there is a WCS China, because he'd have had the same issue to travel to Germany when winning WCS China.
Unfortunately, Blizzard needs to plan this tournament series better.
The issue was ESL/Blizzard/whatever powers that be chose to have the finals hosted at gamescom, meaning they had no ability to alter what dates the finals were held. It was locked in at 2 weeks after the finals, which clearly isn't enough time for Chinese players to get visas.
On August 20 2013 09:33 negativedge wrote: damn, this just straight up cost Jim a minimum of $5000
but I guess according to the people in this thread it's his fault for playing NA instead of signing up for that WCS China region
It doesn't even matter if there is a WCS China, because he'd have had the same issue to travel to Germany when winning WCS China.
Unfortunately, Blizzard needs to plan this tournament series better.
The issue was ESL/Blizzard/whatever powers that be chose to have the finals hosted at gamescom, meaning they had no ability to alter what dates the finals were held. It was locked in at 2 weeks after the finals, which clearly isn't enough time for Chinese players to get visas.
On August 20 2013 09:33 negativedge wrote: damn, this just straight up cost Jim a minimum of $5000
but I guess according to the people in this thread it's his fault for playing NA instead of signing up for that WCS China region
It doesn't even matter if there is a WCS China, because he'd have had the same issue to travel to Germany when winning WCS China.
Unfortunately, Blizzard needs to plan this tournament series better.
The issue was ESL/Blizzard/whatever powers that be chose to have the finals hosted at gamescom, meaning they had no ability to alter what dates the finals were held. It was locked in at 2 weeks after the finals, which clearly isn't enough time for Chinese players to get visas.
Exactly my point....
Guess I should read more of the thread than just your two posts on this page.
That said I don't see how blizzard's going to make sure they don't have this same issue if Jim/Macsed qualify for the season finals and have to switch out their USA visas for Canadian visas unless they put a bigger time gap for the finals. This time they had 2 weeks to get ready for the S2 finals in Germany, and that wasn't enough. I don't know if blizzard would really want to wait out 3 weeks or more between the regional season finals and global season finals.
On August 20 2013 09:33 negativedge wrote: damn, this just straight up cost Jim a minimum of $5000
but I guess according to the people in this thread it's his fault for playing NA instead of signing up for that WCS China region
It doesn't even matter if there is a WCS China, because he'd have had the same issue to travel to Germany when winning WCS China.
Unfortunately, Blizzard needs to plan this tournament series better.
The issue was ESL/Blizzard/whatever powers that be chose to have the finals hosted at gamescom, meaning they had no ability to alter what dates the finals were held. It was locked in at 2 weeks after the finals, which clearly isn't enough time for Chinese players to get visas.
Exactly my point....
why ? you can read online how long normaly an visa needs for germany, so if you know you cant get a visa AFTEr the finals, just get a visa for jim and masced before the usa finals and if they win they can go, otherwise 2 visa for free are not the world ... or just let them go there anyways is a nice trip xD
On August 20 2013 09:33 negativedge wrote: damn, this just straight up cost Jim a minimum of $5000
but I guess according to the people in this thread it's his fault for playing NA instead of signing up for that WCS China region
It doesn't even matter if there is a WCS China, because he'd have had the same issue to travel to Germany when winning WCS China.
Unfortunately, Blizzard needs to plan this tournament series better.
The issue was ESL/Blizzard/whatever powers that be chose to have the finals hosted at gamescom, meaning they had no ability to alter what dates the finals were held. It was locked in at 2 weeks after the finals, which clearly isn't enough time for Chinese players to get visas.
Exactly my point....
Guess I should read more of the thread than just your two posts on this page.
That said I don't see how blizzard's going to make sure they don't have this same issue if Jim/Macsed qualify for the season finals and have to switch out their USA visas for Canadian visas unless they put a bigger time gap for the finals. This time they had 2 weeks to get ready for the S2 finals in Germany, and that wasn't enough. I don't know if blizzard would really want to wait out 3 weeks or more between the regional season finals and global season finals.
Well my understanding of the situation is that Macsed would have had no problem getting his visa as the main issue was that Jim is under 18. Unless I've misunderstood the events that have occured
On August 20 2013 09:33 negativedge wrote: damn, this just straight up cost Jim a minimum of $5000
but I guess according to the people in this thread it's his fault for playing NA instead of signing up for that WCS China region
It doesn't even matter if there is a WCS China, because he'd have had the same issue to travel to Germany when winning WCS China.
Unfortunately, Blizzard needs to plan this tournament series better.
The issue was ESL/Blizzard/whatever powers that be chose to have the finals hosted at gamescom, meaning they had no ability to alter what dates the finals were held. It was locked in at 2 weeks after the finals, which clearly isn't enough time for Chinese players to get visas.
Exactly my point....
Guess I should read more of the thread than just your two posts on this page.
That said I don't see how blizzard's going to make sure they don't have this same issue if Jim/Macsed qualify for the season finals and have to switch out their USA visas for Canadian visas unless they put a bigger time gap for the finals. This time they had 2 weeks to get ready for the S2 finals in Germany, and that wasn't enough. I don't know if blizzard would really want to wait out 3 weeks or more between the regional season finals and global season finals.
Well my understanding of the situation is that Macsed would have had no problem getting his visa as the main issue was that Jim is under 18. Unless I've misunderstood the events that have occured
seems like they forget that he needs some stuff from parents written
On August 20 2013 09:33 negativedge wrote: damn, this just straight up cost Jim a minimum of $5000
but I guess according to the people in this thread it's his fault for playing NA instead of signing up for that WCS China region
It doesn't even matter if there is a WCS China, because he'd have had the same issue to travel to Germany when winning WCS China.
Unfortunately, Blizzard needs to plan this tournament series better.
The issue was ESL/Blizzard/whatever powers that be chose to have the finals hosted at gamescom, meaning they had no ability to alter what dates the finals were held. It was locked in at 2 weeks after the finals, which clearly isn't enough time for Chinese players to get visas.
Exactly my point....
Guess I should read more of the thread than just your two posts on this page.
That said I don't see how blizzard's going to make sure they don't have this same issue if Jim/Macsed qualify for the season finals and have to switch out their USA visas for Canadian visas unless they put a bigger time gap for the finals. This time they had 2 weeks to get ready for the S2 finals in Germany, and that wasn't enough. I don't know if blizzard would really want to wait out 3 weeks or more between the regional season finals and global season finals.
I think I understand Blizzard's approach in relation to your point--Blizzard would rather do the final at Gamescom since it'll be less expensive for them piggybacking off of a location, but more difficult for the competitors who qualified. Why carry the expenses when you can do what you're currently doing by putting the responsibility on the player to be able to attend, and just replacing them? Smart business move.
On August 20 2013 09:33 negativedge wrote: damn, this just straight up cost Jim a minimum of $5000
but I guess according to the people in this thread it's his fault for playing NA instead of signing up for that WCS China region
It doesn't even matter if there is a WCS China, because he'd have had the same issue to travel to Germany when winning WCS China.
Unfortunately, Blizzard needs to plan this tournament series better.
The issue was ESL/Blizzard/whatever powers that be chose to have the finals hosted at gamescom, meaning they had no ability to alter what dates the finals were held. It was locked in at 2 weeks after the finals, which clearly isn't enough time for Chinese players to get visas.
Exactly my point....
Guess I should read more of the thread than just your two posts on this page.
That said I don't see how blizzard's going to make sure they don't have this same issue if Jim/Macsed qualify for the season finals and have to switch out their USA visas for Canadian visas unless they put a bigger time gap for the finals. This time they had 2 weeks to get ready for the S2 finals in Germany, and that wasn't enough. I don't know if blizzard would really want to wait out 3 weeks or more between the regional season finals and global season finals.
Well my understanding of the situation is that Macsed would have had no problem getting his visa as the main issue was that Jim is under 18. Unless I've misunderstood the events that have occured
seems like they forget that he needs some stuff from parents written
It sounded like getting the documentation was region-locked. I know China follows a hukou system for residency, and I'm not sure if this would be a result or similar to it.
EDIT: I re-read Edison's post, and yes, it is the hukou system. This has been a hot debate in China for a while.
On August 20 2013 09:33 negativedge wrote: damn, this just straight up cost Jim a minimum of $5000
but I guess according to the people in this thread it's his fault for playing NA instead of signing up for that WCS China region
It doesn't even matter if there is a WCS China, because he'd have had the same issue to travel to Germany when winning WCS China.
Unfortunately, Blizzard needs to plan this tournament series better.
The issue was ESL/Blizzard/whatever powers that be chose to have the finals hosted at gamescom, meaning they had no ability to alter what dates the finals were held. It was locked in at 2 weeks after the finals, which clearly isn't enough time for Chinese players to get visas.
Exactly my point....
why ? you can read online how long normaly an visa needs for germany, so if you know you cant get a visa AFTEr the finals, just get a visa for jim and masced before the usa finals and if they win they can go, otherwise 2 visa for free are not the world ... or just let them go there anyways is a nice trip xD
They said he will get League final WCS America money and points,
where do they say he will get Season Final money of $5000 + Season Final WCS points?
Blizzard: No matter the outcome, Jim will still receive all WCS Points and prize money he earned from his performance in WCS America thus far, including the League Finals. It’s also important to note that Jim will retain his Premier League placement and seeding as we head in to WCS America Season 3.
Jim originally earned a seat at the WCS Season 2 Finals by achieving fifth place at the WCS America Season 2 League Finals,
On August 20 2013 09:33 negativedge wrote: damn, this just straight up cost Jim a minimum of $5000
but I guess according to the people in this thread it's his fault for playing NA instead of signing up for that WCS China region
It doesn't even matter if there is a WCS China, because he'd have had the same issue to travel to Germany when winning WCS China.
Unfortunately, Blizzard needs to plan this tournament series better.
The issue was ESL/Blizzard/whatever powers that be chose to have the finals hosted at gamescom, meaning they had no ability to alter what dates the finals were held. It was locked in at 2 weeks after the finals, which clearly isn't enough time for Chinese players to get visas.
Exactly my point....
Guess I should read more of the thread than just your two posts on this page.
That said I don't see how blizzard's going to make sure they don't have this same issue if Jim/Macsed qualify for the season finals and have to switch out their USA visas for Canadian visas unless they put a bigger time gap for the finals. This time they had 2 weeks to get ready for the S2 finals in Germany, and that wasn't enough. I don't know if blizzard would really want to wait out 3 weeks or more between the regional season finals and global season finals.
I think I understand Blizzard's approach in relation to your point--Blizzard would rather do the final at Gamescom since it'll be less expensive for them piggybacking off of a location, but more difficult for the competitors who qualified. Why carry the expenses when you can do what you're currently doing by putting the responsibility on the player to be able to attend, and just replacing them? Smart business move.
Its not Blizzards fault that one player was unable to get a notarized letter from his mother that he needed to get a visa. This final was always going to be held in Germany. Why? Because ESL is there and they get the season 2 finals and the season 3 finals is in NA. One per region. I know you want to blame Blizzard, but its really not their fault. They told people this was happening back in April when they announced WCS. 14 other players will be able to attend without issue. Just because one can't go, we don't need to get out the anti-Blizzard pitchforks.
On August 20 2013 09:33 negativedge wrote: damn, this just straight up cost Jim a minimum of $5000
but I guess according to the people in this thread it's his fault for playing NA instead of signing up for that WCS China region
It doesn't even matter if there is a WCS China, because he'd have had the same issue to travel to Germany when winning WCS China.
Unfortunately, Blizzard needs to plan this tournament series better.
The issue was ESL/Blizzard/whatever powers that be chose to have the finals hosted at gamescom, meaning they had no ability to alter what dates the finals were held. It was locked in at 2 weeks after the finals, which clearly isn't enough time for Chinese players to get visas.
Exactly my point....
Guess I should read more of the thread than just your two posts on this page.
That said I don't see how blizzard's going to make sure they don't have this same issue if Jim/Macsed qualify for the season finals and have to switch out their USA visas for Canadian visas unless they put a bigger time gap for the finals. This time they had 2 weeks to get ready for the S2 finals in Germany, and that wasn't enough. I don't know if blizzard would really want to wait out 3 weeks or more between the regional season finals and global season finals.
I think I understand Blizzard's approach in relation to your point--Blizzard would rather do the final at Gamescom since it'll be less expensive for them piggybacking off of a location, but more difficult for the competitors who qualified. Why carry the expenses when you can do what you're currently doing by putting the responsibility on the player to be able to attend, and just replacing them? Smart business move.
Its not Blizzards fault that one player was unable to get a notarized letter from his mother that he needed to get a visa. This final was always going to be held in Germany. Why? Because ESL is there and they get the season 2 finals and the season 3 finals is in NA. One per region. I know you want to blame Blizzard, but its really not their fault. They told people this was happening back in April when they announced WCS. 14 other players will be able to attend without issue. Just because one can't go, we don't need to get out the anti-Blizzard pitchforks.
They could atleast give him the $5000, and World Season Final WCS points that he deserves
instead of taking it away from Jim and giving the money and WCS points to Alive (who wasnt good enough to be there)
Funny how if Jim didn't tell Blizzard about the VISA Issues, Jim would actually get the $5000 and Season Final WCS points
he would just be DQ'd at the tournament, and get 16th place at Season Finals
instead, he told Blizzard, and now Blizzard takes away Jim's money and points and gives them to Alive
On August 20 2013 09:33 negativedge wrote: damn, this just straight up cost Jim a minimum of $5000
but I guess according to the people in this thread it's his fault for playing NA instead of signing up for that WCS China region
It doesn't even matter if there is a WCS China, because he'd have had the same issue to travel to Germany when winning WCS China.
Unfortunately, Blizzard needs to plan this tournament series better.
The issue was ESL/Blizzard/whatever powers that be chose to have the finals hosted at gamescom, meaning they had no ability to alter what dates the finals were held. It was locked in at 2 weeks after the finals, which clearly isn't enough time for Chinese players to get visas.
Exactly my point....
Heres the thing, I don't know how much faster blizzard could have run the tournament considering there was WCS going on basically everyday and before this everyone wanted them to move finals forward 1 week because of TI.
Glad this happened. Not for Jim, not for his competitors, not for the other eliminated competitors either. But for Blizzard, for all the questions and criticisms that were raised when they announced the peculiarities of the WCS system, which are now coming back to bite them in the ass.
On August 20 2013 10:35 a176 wrote: Glad this happened. Not for Jim, not for his competitors, not for the other eliminated competitors either. But for Blizzard, for all the questions and criticisms that were raised when they announced the peculiarities of the WCS system, which are now coming back to bite them in the ass.
When viOLet couldn't get his VISA for WCS AM S2 Finals they issued a vague statement about the future of WCS and VISA issues. I'm really curious to see what, if anything, Blizzard ends up doing.
(Aug 3, 2013) Given the large number of visa issues that have confronted players in WCS America over the first 2 seasons, we will be re-examining our policy regarding visas going into 2013 Season 3 and 2014 WCS. We will strive for a fair system that ensures the integrity of WCS tournaments, while we allow as many to compete as possible.
On August 20 2013 09:33 negativedge wrote: damn, this just straight up cost Jim a minimum of $5000
but I guess according to the people in this thread it's his fault for playing NA instead of signing up for that WCS China region
It doesn't even matter if there is a WCS China, because he'd have had the same issue to travel to Germany when winning WCS China.
Unfortunately, Blizzard needs to plan this tournament series better.
The issue was ESL/Blizzard/whatever powers that be chose to have the finals hosted at gamescom, meaning they had no ability to alter what dates the finals were held. It was locked in at 2 weeks after the finals, which clearly isn't enough time for Chinese players to get visas.
Exactly my point....
Guess I should read more of the thread than just your two posts on this page.
That said I don't see how blizzard's going to make sure they don't have this same issue if Jim/Macsed qualify for the season finals and have to switch out their USA visas for Canadian visas unless they put a bigger time gap for the finals. This time they had 2 weeks to get ready for the S2 finals in Germany, and that wasn't enough. I don't know if blizzard would really want to wait out 3 weeks or more between the regional season finals and global season finals.
I think I understand Blizzard's approach in relation to your point--Blizzard would rather do the final at Gamescom since it'll be less expensive for them piggybacking off of a location, but more difficult for the competitors who qualified. Why carry the expenses when you can do what you're currently doing by putting the responsibility on the player to be able to attend, and just replacing them? Smart business move.
Its not Blizzards fault that one player was unable to get a notarized letter from his mother that he needed to get a visa. This final was always going to be held in Germany. Why? Because ESL is there and they get the season 2 finals and the season 3 finals is in NA. One per region. I know you want to blame Blizzard, but its really not their fault. They told people this was happening back in April when they announced WCS. 14 other players will be able to attend without issue. Just because one can't go, we don't need to get out the anti-Blizzard pitchforks.
They could atleast give him the $5000, and World Season Final WCS points that he deserves
instead of taking it away from Jim and giving the money and WCS points to Alive (who wasnt good enough to be there)
Funny how if Jim didn't tell Blizzard about the VISA Issues, Jim would actually get the $5000 and Season Final WCS points
he would just be DQ'd at the tournament, and get 16th place at Season Finals
instead, he told Blizzard, and now Blizzard takes away Jim's money and points and gives them to Alive
You have to play in the Season 2 Global finals to qualify for that money. If you don't go, you don't get the money. Its like work, if you don't show up, you don't get paid.
On August 20 2013 10:35 a176 wrote: Glad this happened. Not for Jim, not for his competitors, not for the other eliminated competitors either. But for Blizzard, for all the questions and criticisms that were raised when they announced the peculiarities of the WCS system, which are now coming back to bite them in the ass.
So you see something that happened which is really shitty for a player and his fans and an entire country which won't be represented, and you are happy that it becomes an excuse for you to hate on blizzard? Okay. Blizzard didn't design the VISA region limits in China, no esports company in the world would have done anything in time to fix it barring bribing Chinese officials.
On August 20 2013 09:33 negativedge wrote: damn, this just straight up cost Jim a minimum of $5000
but I guess according to the people in this thread it's his fault for playing NA instead of signing up for that WCS China region
It doesn't even matter if there is a WCS China, because he'd have had the same issue to travel to Germany when winning WCS China.
Unfortunately, Blizzard needs to plan this tournament series better.
The issue was ESL/Blizzard/whatever powers that be chose to have the finals hosted at gamescom, meaning they had no ability to alter what dates the finals were held. It was locked in at 2 weeks after the finals, which clearly isn't enough time for Chinese players to get visas.
Exactly my point....
Guess I should read more of the thread than just your two posts on this page.
That said I don't see how blizzard's going to make sure they don't have this same issue if Jim/Macsed qualify for the season finals and have to switch out their USA visas for Canadian visas unless they put a bigger time gap for the finals. This time they had 2 weeks to get ready for the S2 finals in Germany, and that wasn't enough. I don't know if blizzard would really want to wait out 3 weeks or more between the regional season finals and global season finals.
I think I understand Blizzard's approach in relation to your point--Blizzard would rather do the final at Gamescom since it'll be less expensive for them piggybacking off of a location, but more difficult for the competitors who qualified. Why carry the expenses when you can do what you're currently doing by putting the responsibility on the player to be able to attend, and just replacing them? Smart business move.
Its not Blizzards fault that one player was unable to get a notarized letter from his mother that he needed to get a visa. This final was always going to be held in Germany. Why? Because ESL is there and they get the season 2 finals and the season 3 finals is in NA. One per region. I know you want to blame Blizzard, but its really not their fault. They told people this was happening back in April when they announced WCS. 14 other players will be able to attend without issue. Just because one can't go, we don't need to get out the anti-Blizzard pitchforks.
They could atleast give him the $5000, and World Season Final WCS points that he deserves
instead of taking it away from Jim and giving the money and WCS points to Alive (who wasnt good enough to be there)
Funny how if Jim didn't tell Blizzard about the VISA Issues, Jim would actually get the $5000 and Season Final WCS points
he would just be DQ'd at the tournament, and get 16th place at Season Finals
instead, he told Blizzard, and now Blizzard takes away Jim's money and points and gives them to Alive
You have to play in the Season 2 Global finals to qualify for that money. If you don't go, you don't get the money. Its like work, if you don't show up, you don't get paid.
Its not his until he earns it.
if he didnt show up, he would be DQ'd at the venue
On August 20 2013 09:33 negativedge wrote: damn, this just straight up cost Jim a minimum of $5000
but I guess according to the people in this thread it's his fault for playing NA instead of signing up for that WCS China region
It doesn't even matter if there is a WCS China, because he'd have had the same issue to travel to Germany when winning WCS China.
Unfortunately, Blizzard needs to plan this tournament series better.
The issue was ESL/Blizzard/whatever powers that be chose to have the finals hosted at gamescom, meaning they had no ability to alter what dates the finals were held. It was locked in at 2 weeks after the finals, which clearly isn't enough time for Chinese players to get visas.
Exactly my point....
Guess I should read more of the thread than just your two posts on this page.
That said I don't see how blizzard's going to make sure they don't have this same issue if Jim/Macsed qualify for the season finals and have to switch out their USA visas for Canadian visas unless they put a bigger time gap for the finals. This time they had 2 weeks to get ready for the S2 finals in Germany, and that wasn't enough. I don't know if blizzard would really want to wait out 3 weeks or more between the regional season finals and global season finals.
I think I understand Blizzard's approach in relation to your point--Blizzard would rather do the final at Gamescom since it'll be less expensive for them piggybacking off of a location, but more difficult for the competitors who qualified. Why carry the expenses when you can do what you're currently doing by putting the responsibility on the player to be able to attend, and just replacing them? Smart business move.
Its not Blizzards fault that one player was unable to get a notarized letter from his mother that he needed to get a visa. This final was always going to be held in Germany. Why? Because ESL is there and they get the season 2 finals and the season 3 finals is in NA. One per region. I know you want to blame Blizzard, but its really not their fault. They told people this was happening back in April when they announced WCS. 14 other players will be able to attend without issue. Just because one can't go, we don't need to get out the anti-Blizzard pitchforks.
They could atleast give him the $5000, and World Season Final WCS points that he deserves
instead of taking it away from Jim and giving the money and WCS points to Alive (who wasnt good enough to be there)
Funny how if Jim didn't tell Blizzard about the VISA Issues, Jim would actually get the $5000 and Season Final WCS points
he would just be DQ'd at the tournament, and get 16th place at Season Finals
instead, he told Blizzard, and now Blizzard takes away Jim's money and points and gives them to Alive
You have to play in the Season 2 Global finals to qualify for that money. If you don't go, you don't get the money. Its like work, if you don't show up, you don't get paid.
Its not his until he earns it.
if he didnt show up, he would be DQ'd at the venue
put in 16th place
get 16th place $5000 Money and WCS points
Yes, so he forfeited his spot, like a good sportsman and gave it to another player that he knocked out. If he didn't show up and never traveled to Germany because he didn't have a Visa, but expected the money anyways, he would be an asshole. You don't get rewarded for not competing in an event and I don't think Blizzard would give him the money. I wouldn't be shocked to find out there were rules that said you must show up to the venue to even qualify to get paid.
There are no free lunches. You have at least show up to take last place.
On August 20 2013 10:35 a176 wrote: Glad this happened. Not for Jim, not for his competitors, not for the other eliminated competitors either. But for Blizzard, for all the questions and criticisms that were raised when they announced the peculiarities of the WCS system, which are now coming back to bite them in the ass.
So you see something that happened which is really shitty for a player and his fans and an entire country which won't be represented, and you are happy that it becomes an excuse for you to hate on blizzard? Okay. Blizzard didn't design the VISA region limits in China, no esports company in the world would have done anything in time to fix it barring bribing Chinese officials.
They did decide to totally ignore china (and the rest of asia/australia excluding korea) when setting up the wcs system though, forcing them to play on NA or have to physically play every single round in korea.
On August 20 2013 10:35 a176 wrote: Glad this happened. Not for Jim, not for his competitors, not for the other eliminated competitors either. But for Blizzard, for all the questions and criticisms that were raised when they announced the peculiarities of the WCS system, which are now coming back to bite them in the ass.
So you see something that happened which is really shitty for a player and his fans and an entire country which won't be represented, and you are happy that it becomes an excuse for you to hate on blizzard? Okay. Blizzard didn't design the VISA region limits in China, no esports company in the world would have done anything in time to fix it barring bribing Chinese officials.
They did decide to totally ignore china (and the rest of asia/australia excluding korea) when setting up the wcs system though, forcing them to play on NA or have to physically play every single round in korea.
Same for every player outside of the key countries where the event is being held, what's your point? I made an entire thread explaining why the system was crappy for Chinese players and know exactly how frustrating it is, but this is no excuse to go on hating blizzard at all. Visa problems are going to exist as long as players can't plan months in advance to attend a live venue, which the WCS points systems creates, no one knows who will get more points until the games are played some times just a few days or weeks before the WCS finals.
On August 20 2013 10:35 a176 wrote: Glad this happened. Not for Jim, not for his competitors, not for the other eliminated competitors either. But for Blizzard, for all the questions and criticisms that were raised when they announced the peculiarities of the WCS system, which are now coming back to bite them in the ass.
So you see something that happened which is really shitty for a player and his fans and an entire country which won't be represented, and you are happy that it becomes an excuse for you to hate on blizzard? Okay. Blizzard didn't design the VISA region limits in China, no esports company in the world would have done anything in time to fix it barring bribing Chinese officials.
They did decide to totally ignore china (and the rest of asia/australia excluding korea) when setting up the wcs system though, forcing them to play on NA or have to physically play every single round in korea.
They also ignored parts of Siberia and the entire continent of Africa. Not everyone gets their own region for WCS. They tried that and specifically said that not every region was worth it and some were huge money sinks.
Plansix's posts are never worth responding to. Why he is allowed to troll (for his sake, I hope he is) unabated is a mystery to me. Personally, I think he ruins threads and deters people from even bothering to read threads, let alone post in them.
That aside, if Koreans are allowed to qualify online for NA and make a farce out of the region, because we only want the best of the best, then I want Jim to be allowed to play from his home, via online. Nothing is fair about WCS NA, and I see no ground to stand on now to complain about disadvantages. Jim was better than Alive. If Jim is better and he tried to attain a VISA, and there was nothing he could do to change the outcome, then he should be able to play from China.
Allowing Jim to play is far more fair to me than letting Alive play. Jim earned that money, too. Alive gets at least 5k, that he otherwise wouldn't, simply because of a VISA decision, and Jim essentially loses 5k simply based off a VISA decision? The only winner in the current scenario is Alive. Not only is Jim more deserving, but he's the fan favorite. Alive's presence in the tournament is so minuscule that he may as well not even be there.
On August 20 2013 00:00 Spectralx wrote: Region lock, and Starcraft would have 10 times less problems. All scenes would have a chance to grow. GL all,
Except I will not watch a bunch of NA players derping (not that there aren't good players from the Americas, just not enough). I tune in because I want to watch quality games with top level play. I don't give a damn what country the players are from. SC2 is not a national sport. There is no Team USA. It's not us vs them, its individual vs individual.
The players in the WCS AM season 2 finals were perfect. Polt, Scarlett, Jaedong, Jim... that's the kind of hype that grows the scene. Heck I would like to see Europeans in our WCS too. Make WCS AM into a mini-WCS season finals, with players from around the world.
And you really dont understand SC2 community, do you? Most of us will cheer for anyone who can give us great games. Look how much hype Jim got recently. Why should NA players get more attention just because they're from NA? They have to earn it.
Deserves a season ban imo. Even with his age he`s already been through enough visa trouble to know better. Researching requirements and being prepared is not that much to ask.
On August 20 2013 00:00 Spectralx wrote: Region lock, and Starcraft would have 10 times less problems. All scenes would have a chance to grow. GL all,
Except I will not watch a bunch of NA players derping (not that there aren't good players from the Americas, just not enough). I tune in because I want to watch quality games with top level play. I don't give a damn what country the players are from. SC2 is not a national sport. There is no Team USA. It's not us vs them, its individual vs individual.
.
you think blizzard cares if you watch or not , if they do they would never put ro8 in the same time as TI3. if you wanna watch highest level of play go watch wcs kr not wcs na or eu .
On August 20 2013 00:00 Spectralx wrote: Region lock, and Starcraft would have 10 times less problems. All scenes would have a chance to grow. GL all,
The players in the WCS AM season 2 finals were perfect. Polt, Scarlett, Jaedong, Jim... that's the kind of hype that grows the scene. Heck I would like to see Europeans in our WCS too. Make WCS AM into a mini-WCS season finals, with players from around the world.
hype grows the scene ? new players grow it not hype . nobody will buy the game becose you will tell them look JD and POLT are good . they would rather buy it if you would be like " hey i know this guy who lives near us that play this , check it out "
On August 20 2013 00:00 Spectralx wrote: Region lock, and Starcraft would have 10 times less problems. All scenes would have a chance to grow. GL all,
And you really dont understand SC2 community, do you? Most of us will cheer for anyone who can give us great games. Look how much hype Jim got recently. Why should NA players get more attention just because they're from NA? They have to earn it.
you know how this feels ? it feels like you take Italy or Spain soccer team and send it to play vs Afghanistan soccer team . are you seriously ? How would a NA player compete in par with Korean players when you dont even have 1/8 the amount of PRO team , PRO players Pro coaches and PRO houses . you want players to rise from dry stones . you have no infrastructure no team no practice partners nothing .
on topic : i hope they make sure they can get visa before getting so deep into tournament .
On August 20 2013 11:36 Scarecrow wrote: Deserves a season ban imo. Even with his age he`s already been through enough visa trouble to know better. Researching requirements and being prepared is not that much to ask.
Jim has never been abroad before the WCS NA the past season. He suffered a lot with US visa when he's qualified for Ro16 and finally got through it. Unfortunately for German visa he didn't. You don't know how hard for Chinese to get visa on their own. I was enrolled in an university in US and after I got all the materials I need, it still took about two months to get the visa in my hand. He only had two weeks which made it completely understandable. For sure when he turns 18 and has more experience it would be much better.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
yeah cause those american players suck and cant make the cut. Jim posted for a visa over a month ago due to other people having the same thing, its not his fault governments are slow and sometimes even stupid. shut up you fanboy and learn to like players that are good
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
yeah cause those american players suck and cant make the cut. Jim posted for a visa over a month ago due to other people having the same thing, its not his fault governments are slow and sometimes even stupid. shut up you fanboy and learn to like players that are good
User was temp banned for this post.
Temp banned for speaking the truth. :/
I think he might have been banned for the " shut up you fanboy and learn to like players that are good" part. That is just me though.
On August 20 2013 00:00 Spectralx wrote: Region lock, and Starcraft would have 10 times less problems. All scenes would have a chance to grow. GL all,
Except I will not watch a bunch of NA players derping (not that there aren't good players from the Americas, just not enough). I tune in because I want to watch quality games with top level play. I don't give a damn what country the players are from. SC2 is not a national sport. There is no Team USA. It's not us vs them, its individual vs individual.
The players in the WCS AM season 2 finals were perfect. Polt, Scarlett, Jaedong, Jim... that's the kind of hype that grows the scene. Heck I would like to see Europeans in our WCS too. Make WCS AM into a mini-WCS season finals, with players from around the world.
And you really dont understand SC2 community, do you? Most of us will cheer for anyone who can give us great games. Look how much hype Jim got recently. Why should NA players get more attention just because they're from NA? They have to earn it.
If you dont want to watch NA players 'derping' you don't have to. Just watch WCS eu/korea. Also, after a season or two they wouldn't be derping anymore. A few koreans would see that it was worth it to live in America. They could come for school or whatever and play WCS at the same time. Would raise the level of play for everyone. Instead Korea just takes all the money. GG.
Why don't they require you to have a visa if your going to enter WCS in another region? Also the next season ban is a good idea. I don't care how hard you work and train, your competing in a tournament you know that your unable to finish. Your robbing a good player of a chance at a championship/win.
Jim clearly did everything that he could. Its hard to learn another countries requirements. He tried multiple solutions, met with the officials got told different things. At least he tried to make it compared to other people who just said screw it and withdrew.
On August 20 2013 00:00 Spectralx wrote: Region lock, and Starcraft would have 10 times less problems. All scenes would have a chance to grow. GL all,
Except I will not watch a bunch of NA players derping (not that there aren't good players from the Americas, just not enough). I tune in because I want to watch quality games with top level play. I don't give a damn what country the players are from. SC2 is not a national sport. There is no Team USA. It's not us vs them, its individual vs individual.
The players in the WCS AM season 2 finals were perfect. Polt, Scarlett, Jaedong, Jim... that's the kind of hype that grows the scene. Heck I would like to see Europeans in our WCS too. Make WCS AM into a mini-WCS season finals, with players from around the world.
And you really dont understand SC2 community, do you? Most of us will cheer for anyone who can give us great games. Look how much hype Jim got recently. Why should NA players get more attention just because they're from NA? They have to earn it.
If you dont want to watch NA players 'derping' you don't have to. Just watch WCS eu/korea. Also, after a season or two they wouldn't be derping anymore. A few koreans would see that it was worth it to live in America. They could come for school or whatever and play WCS at the same time. Would raise the level of play for everyone. Instead Korea just takes all the money. GG.
The American players aren't going to get better by only playing worse players. And if they locked the regions they should give 90% of the prize pool from the WCS US to the Korean one because there's no way Larry the grandmaster protoss on the US server deserves more money than the practice partner on a proleague team who can't get into the challenger league because there are so many great Korean players.
It's irrelevent anyway, this is about his visa for the grand finals, so region locking isn't going to prevent Chinese players having to travel ot wherever the final is held.
On August 20 2013 13:36 purecarnagge wrote: Why don't they require you to have a visa if your going to enter WCS in another region? Also the next season ban is a good idea. I don't care how hard you work and train, your competing in a tournament you know that your unable to finish. Your robbing a good player of a chance at a championship/win.
Visas don't work that way. You must have a valid reason when you apply for a visa and it has to be confirmed as legit. Blizzard/SC2/WCS is not a big enough deal for the government to understand or care how the system works.
From reading other threads it's very hard to get a Visa for anything as a Chinese resident. In general it's also difficult to get a visa for America from any other region. This particular case was made much more difficult by the fact that Jim is not 18.
A lot of people in this thread do not understand how getting a visa works,and how difficult it is. You can't just apply for one with no valid reason and it can take months to process. For US visas, my country even requires an interview. That said, it is unfair for people to point the blame at Jim for not applying before he got qualified, and even suggesting 'punishment' is frankly, quite ridiculous and it will make the situation look even worse.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
If the player can't make it, the next person deserving of the shot immediately gets it. Whats your problem?
On August 20 2013 00:00 Spectralx wrote: Region lock, and Starcraft would have 10 times less problems. All scenes would have a chance to grow. GL all,
Except I will not watch a bunch of NA players derping (not that there aren't good players from the Americas, just not enough). I tune in because I want to watch quality games with top level play. I don't give a damn what country the players are from. SC2 is not a national sport. There is no Team USA. It's not us vs them, its individual vs individual.
The players in the WCS AM season 2 finals were perfect. Polt, Scarlett, Jaedong, Jim... that's the kind of hype that grows the scene. Heck I would like to see Europeans in our WCS too. Make WCS AM into a mini-WCS season finals, with players from around the world.
And you really dont understand SC2 community, do you? Most of us will cheer for anyone who can give us great games. Look how much hype Jim got recently. Why should NA players get more attention just because they're from NA? They have to earn it.
If you dont want to watch NA players 'derping' you don't have to. Just watch WCS eu/korea. Also, after a season or two they wouldn't be derping anymore. A few koreans would see that it was worth it to live in America. They could come for school or whatever and play WCS at the same time. Would raise the level of play for everyone. Instead Korea just takes all the money. GG.
That's the problem. People wont watch. So how will that help grow the "scene"? The scene isn't just the players. Without the viewers there is no scene.
On August 19 2013 23:43 DinoMight wrote: Why are there so many frickin Visa issues? Is Jim the only Chinese person trying to enter Germany?? Did they just not plan far enough ahead of time for this?
This seems like it should be such a non-issue. Maybe they should look into how this is done for conventional sports. Chinese atheletes compete everywhere all the time.
Jim is under 18 years old and he needs a letters from his parents saying someone can act as his guardian while he is there. It’s a requirement in Germany and the letter must be signed by his parent and notarized. He couldn’t get it in time and cannot go because of it.
Professional athletes have no problem because they have people who handle this shit for them. Jim doesn’t have that. Its just him and his coach and that is it. They are both young guys and they are learning things as they go.
Sounds like "Visa issues" then is "did not plan ahead."
I like Jim, but people need to start getting warnings / suspensions for this. So many spots being forfeited because of visa issues. It's not fair to the other players.
You go live in China, and apply for a German visa. Good luck Friends of mine took 6 months getting the Visa, they got it the day before the flight, but it took crazy long.
The American players aren't going to get better by only playing worse players. And if they locked the regions they should give 90% of the prize pool from the WCS US to the Korean one because there's no way Larry the grandmaster protoss on the US server deserves more money than the practice partner on a proleague team who can't get into the challenger league because there are so many great Korean players.
It's irrelevent anyway, this is about his visa for the grand finals, so region locking isn't going to prevent Chinese players having to travel ot wherever the final is held.
Laughed more than I should on this one..... [x] vote for new stereotype: Larry the NA GM Toss
The American players aren't going to get better by only playing worse players. And if they locked the regions they should give 90% of the prize pool from the WCS US to the Korean one because there's no way Larry the grandmaster protoss on the US server deserves more money than the practice partner on a proleague team who can't get into the challenger league because there are so many great Korean players.
It's irrelevent anyway, this is about his visa for the grand finals, so region locking isn't going to prevent Chinese players having to travel ot wherever the final is held.
Laughed more than I should on this one..... [x] vote for new stereotype: Larry the NA GM Toss
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
If the player can't make it, the next person deserving of the shot immediately gets it. Whats your problem?
All the players eliminated by the forfeiter earlier in the tourney got shafted.
Why not require players to have relevant visas for both finals (regional and world) before the season even begins? Or as fast as possible after qualifying for premier league.
On August 20 2013 17:32 [KGS]Slacker wrote: Why not require players to have relevant visas for both finals (regional and world) before the season even begins? Or as fast as possible after qualifying for premier league.
It's not that easy to just apply for a visa, there are fees associated with it and you need to have a legit reason to be applying for the visa before you get it - you can't just apply for one because you "might" qualify, you need to have actual proof of qualification first. And that's even if the visa office approves of some random videogame's tournament,
On August 20 2013 17:32 [KGS]Slacker wrote: Why not require players to have relevant visas for both finals (regional and world) before the season even begins? Or as fast as possible after qualifying for premier league.
It's not that easy to just apply for a visa, there are fees associated with it and you need to have a legit reason to be applying for the visa before you get it - you can't just apply for one because you "might" qualify, you need to have actual proof of qualification first. And that's even if the visa office approves of some random videogame's tournament,
This, plus chances are that you have to show the flight ticket before they consider making a visa so you can prove that you can actually afford the flight. This means in the worst case that jim has to spend money for 3 flights per year (season finals) that he won't need if he does not qualify, and I'm pretty sure it's not cheap to fly from china to europe / us.
On August 20 2013 16:06 Shellebelles wrote: A lot of people in this thread do not understand how getting a visa works,and how difficult it is. You can't just apply for one with no valid reason and it can take months to process. For US visas, my country even requires an interview. That said, it is unfair for people to point the blame at Jim for not applying before he got qualified, and even suggesting 'punishment' is frankly, quite ridiculous and it will make the situation look even worse.
If you're a German citizen and want to apply for a US visa, you also need to have an interview (albeit short), so I don't think it is something special. Anyways, didn't the ESL have something prepared that would make the VISA go through in just three days, once all necessary documents are handed in? They just failed identify the necessary documents and gather them within given time.
While nobody thinks that they did it on purpose and everybody pretty much agrees that Jim is the one who is mainly screwed over by this, I can't help but think that it is also his (or his mangers') fault.
On August 20 2013 17:32 [KGS]Slacker wrote: Why not require players to have relevant visas for both finals (regional and world) before the season even begins? Or as fast as possible after qualifying for premier league.
It's not that easy to just apply for a visa, there are fees associated with it and you need to have a legit reason to be applying for the visa before you get it - you can't just apply for one because you "might" qualify, you need to have actual proof of qualification first. And that's even if the visa office approves of some random videogame's tournament,
This, plus chances are that you have to show the flight ticket before they consider making a visa so you can prove that you can actually afford the flight. This means in the worst case that jim has to spend money for 3 flights per year (season finals) that he won't need if he does not qualify, and I'm pretty sure it's not cheap to fly from china to europe / us.
Okay, I am hearing this from multiple sides now (plane ticket being a requirement), but are there any sources? I am not doubting this, but I could only find a proof of having enough money as requirement, it did not state that it has to be in form of a plane ticket.
Somewhere I met this kind of buracracy before.. hmm wait a sec... It was in russia. Same bullshit. To get smth done you always need to bribe someone... Pity.
And as a specialist in getting visas to anywhere because i am coming from a 3rd world country. You always need:
Passport Financial statement (that you can support yourself) Invitation. Usually it has to be some official paper. Private invitaition usually doesn't cut it. Filled out forms. (here depends on the embassy. Some countries are very flexible and helpful. Some won't even let you in into the building if smth is filled out wrong.) Prove of paid fee for visa application. (some embassy accepts money at the counter.) Some kind of Travel arrangements (worst cas scenario: Flight ticket (not reservation) und Hotel booking confirmed)
I think thats it
Most important where the embassy is located: german embassy in US and german embassy in China is 2 different stories. Btw. at some embassies you need to make a reservation for appointment. And waiting time is months.
So good luck all you people with nice passports. You don't know how lucky you are. I have a german passport now and sooooooo happy.
On August 20 2013 17:32 [KGS]Slacker wrote: Why not require players to have relevant visas for both finals (regional and world) before the season even begins? Or as fast as possible after qualifying for premier league.
It's not that easy to just apply for a visa, there are fees associated with it and you need to have a legit reason to be applying for the visa before you get it - you can't just apply for one because you "might" qualify, you need to have actual proof of qualification first. And that's even if the visa office approves of some random videogame's tournament,
This, plus chances are that you have to show the flight ticket before they consider making a visa so you can prove that you can actually afford the flight. This means in the worst case that jim has to spend money for 3 flights per year (season finals) that he won't need if he does not qualify, and I'm pretty sure it's not cheap to fly from china to europe / us.
Okay, I am hearing this from multiple sides now (plane ticket being a requirement), but are there any sources? I am not doubting this, but I could only find a proof of having enough money as requirement, it did not state that it has to be in form of a plane ticket.
It's a pretty standard thing to ask for a proof of travel when applying for a work visa. I applied for a German work visa at the beginning of the year and they needed it and proof of what I would be doing in Germany.
On August 20 2013 18:32 SorrowShine wrote: Somewhere I met this kind of buracracy before.. hmm wait a sec... It was in russia. Same bullshit. To get smth done you always need to bribe someone... Pity.
And as a specialist in getting visas to anywhere because i am coming from a 3rd world country. You always need:
Passport Financial statement (that you can support yourself) Invitation. Usually it has to be some official paper. Private invitaition usually doesn't cut it. Filled out forms. (here depends on the embassy. Some countries are very flexible and helpful. Some won't even let you in into the building if smth is filled out wrong.) Prove of paid fee for visa application. (some embassy accepts money at the counter.) Some kind of Travel arrangements (worst cas scenario: Flight ticket (not reservation) und Hotel booking confirmed)
I think thats it
Most important where the embassy is located: german embassy in US and german embassy in China is 2 different stories. Btw. at some embassies you need to make a reservation for appointment. And waiting time is months.
So good luck all you people with nice passports. You don't know how lucky you are. I have a german passport now and sooooooo happy.
Seems you are the one who really understand how hard for iG to work out with these players visa. And i would like to say, Jim and Macsed showing in WCS AM RO 16 was already an miracle, they got their visa within a week.
On August 20 2013 00:00 Spectralx wrote: Region lock, and Starcraft would have 10 times less problems. All scenes would have a chance to grow. GL all,
Except I will not watch a bunch of NA players derping (not that there aren't good players from the Americas, just not enough). I tune in because I want to watch quality games with top level play. I don't give a damn what country the players are from. SC2 is not a national sport. There is no Team USA. It's not us vs them, its individual vs individual.
The players in the WCS AM season 2 finals were perfect. Polt, Scarlett, Jaedong, Jim... that's the kind of hype that grows the scene. Heck I would like to see Europeans in our WCS too. Make WCS AM into a mini-WCS season finals, with players from around the world.
And you really dont understand SC2 community, do you? Most of us will cheer for anyone who can give us great games. Look how much hype Jim got recently. Why should NA players get more attention just because they're from NA? They have to earn it.
If you dont want to watch NA players 'derping' you don't have to. Just watch WCS eu/korea. Also, after a season or two they wouldn't be derping anymore. A few koreans would see that it was worth it to live in America. They could come for school or whatever and play WCS at the same time. Would raise the level of play for everyone. Instead Korea just takes all the money. GG.
The American players aren't going to get better by only playing worse players. And if they locked the regions they should give 90% of the prize pool from the WCS US to the Korean one because there's no way Larry the grandmaster protoss on the US server deserves more money than the practice partner on a proleague team who can't get into the challenger league because there are so many great Korean players.
It's irrelevent anyway, this is about his visa for the grand finals, so region locking isn't going to prevent Chinese players having to travel ot wherever the final is held.
A region lock wouldn't prevent Chinese players? I didn't know there was a wcs china?
On August 20 2013 17:32 [KGS]Slacker wrote: Why not require players to have relevant visas for both finals (regional and world) before the season even begins? Or as fast as possible after qualifying for premier league.
It's not that easy to just apply for a visa, there are fees associated with it and you need to have a legit reason to be applying for the visa before you get it - you can't just apply for one because you "might" qualify, you need to have actual proof of qualification first. And that's even if the visa office approves of some random videogame's tournament,
This, plus chances are that you have to show the flight ticket before they consider making a visa so you can prove that you can actually afford the flight. This means in the worst case that jim has to spend money for 3 flights per year (season finals) that he won't need if he does not qualify, and I'm pretty sure it's not cheap to fly from china to europe / us.
Okay, I am hearing this from multiple sides now (plane ticket being a requirement), but are there any sources? I am not doubting this, but I could only find a proof of having enough money as requirement, it did not state that it has to be in form of a plane ticket.
When the family of my wife aplied for VISA (they live in Moldova and wanted to visit us in Switzerland), they needed to provide airplaine tickets with the application. Additionally I needed to provide a notarially certified document in which I took financial responsibilites to up to 10'000 swiss francs per person. Luckily they also got romanian passports, and now we no longer need to do this (Schengen rules).
I don't know how it works from China to Germany, but I could imagine that it is quite similar.
On August 20 2013 00:00 Spectralx wrote: Region lock, and Starcraft would have 10 times less problems. All scenes would have a chance to grow. GL all,
Except I will not watch a bunch of NA players derping (not that there aren't good players from the Americas, just not enough). I tune in because I want to watch quality games with top level play. I don't give a damn what country the players are from. SC2 is not a national sport. There is no Team USA. It's not us vs them, its individual vs individual.
The players in the WCS AM season 2 finals were perfect. Polt, Scarlett, Jaedong, Jim... that's the kind of hype that grows the scene. Heck I would like to see Europeans in our WCS too. Make WCS AM into a mini-WCS season finals, with players from around the world.
And you really dont understand SC2 community, do you? Most of us will cheer for anyone who can give us great games. Look how much hype Jim got recently. Why should NA players get more attention just because they're from NA? They have to earn it.
If you dont want to watch NA players 'derping' you don't have to. Just watch WCS eu/korea. Also, after a season or two they wouldn't be derping anymore. A few koreans would see that it was worth it to live in America. They could come for school or whatever and play WCS at the same time. Would raise the level of play for everyone. Instead Korea just takes all the money. GG.
The American players aren't going to get better by only playing worse players. And if they locked the regions they should give 90% of the prize pool from the WCS US to the Korean one because there's no way Larry the grandmaster protoss on the US server deserves more money than the practice partner on a proleague team who can't get into the challenger league because there are so many great Korean players.
It's irrelevent anyway, this is about his visa for the grand finals, so region locking isn't going to prevent Chinese players having to travel ot wherever the final is held.
A region lock wouldn't prevent Chinese players? I didn't know there was a wcs china?
So is it talk about region lock (and that means on Americans, not Chinese (and there was wcs china D) or about discrimination of koreans on basis of 'em being better than most of foreigners.
i don't understand why some people here are critizising the players. I am just sorry that this had to happen! But they will learn. Visa restrictions are specific for each country and I think that this will not happen again so soon.
It is understandable that a 17 year old boy ( in my eyes he is just a boy) can not travel alone around the world without someone being responsible.
i MUST say, that if someone cant come, then the person who was next in line i WCS ranking should get that persons spot, not like stephano, when he quit, there was no one to take his place, thats just so wrong....there should be a system where the next in line WCS ranking dude, who didnt make the qualify, to get that persons place who couldnt come for IRL issues or VISA or whatever issues. Just like in normal sports, there is always a reserve spot for people next in line if someone drops out.
On August 19 2013 23:43 DinoMight wrote: Why are there so many frickin Visa issues? Is Jim the only Chinese person trying to enter Germany?? Did they just not plan far enough ahead of time for this?
This seems like it should be such a non-issue. Maybe they should look into how this is done for conventional sports. Chinese atheletes compete everywhere all the time.
Jim is under 18 years old and he needs a letters from his parents saying someone can act as his guardian while he is there. It’s a requirement in Germany and the letter must be signed by his parent and notarized. He couldn’t get it in time and cannot go because of it.
Professional athletes have no problem because they have people who handle this shit for them. Jim doesn’t have that. Its just him and his coach and that is it. They are both young guys and they are learning things as they go.
Sounds like "Visa issues" then is "did not plan ahead."
I like Jim, but people need to start getting warnings / suspensions for this. So many spots being forfeited because of visa issues. It's not fair to the other players.
You go live in China, and apply for a German visa. Good luck Friends of mine took 6 months getting the Visa, they got it the day before the flight, but it took crazy long.
Having lived in China for a couple of years now and having travelled with my Chinese gf on lots of occasions, I have to say getting a (tourist) visa is definitely not hard for Chinese people and it doesn't take a long time.
I guess officially can't work on a tourist visa however, so they might require a different type of visa. Not sure what visa is required in the Schengen area (prob business or something like that), but I think it shouldn't be too hard acquiring it when having a valid reason and paperwork ...
I wonder... do progamers get business visas (or whatever visa is required) or do they just go on tourist visa. I think there should be little risk of getting caught...
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
let me tell u why, American players suck because they dont have the ability to get qualified, so it does not make any sense to let thouse "sucked" Americans go into the Global final. If u want a region block, just watch the WCG global final, full of "sucked" players from other region rather than Korea and China, which makes the global final really stupid to watch, and it is a fact that the average skill is much worse than WCG Korea region. I dont care whether those "sucked" foreign players have the chance or not, they suck so they dont get the chance, i am not telling u i want a total Korean global final, for i like those really skillful foreign players who have still got qualified into the global final such as Naniwa and Scarlett, even in the situation u have mentioned "Korean and Chinese players robbing the spots". Naniwa and Scarlett have been qualified for the global final just because they have the skill. It is no doubt that skillful players have their rights to get into the global final, but meanwhile, it is also undoubtable that those "sucked" players should never get the chance untill they perform better.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
let me tell u why, American players suck because they dont have the ability to get qualified, so it does not make any sense to let thouse "sucked" Americans go into the Global final. If u want a region block, just watch the WCG global final, full of "sucked" players from other region rather than Korea and China, which makes the global final really stupid to watch, and it is a fact that the average skill is much worse than WCG Korea region. I dont care whether those "sucked" foreign players have the chance or not, they suck so they dont get the chance, i am not telling u i want a total Korean global final, for i like those really skillful foreign players who have still got qualified into the global final such as Naniwa and Scarlett, even in the situation u have mentioned "Korean and Chinese players robbing the spots". Naniwa and Scarlett have been qualified for the global final just because they have the skill. It is no doubt that skillful players have their rights to get into the global final, but meanwhile, it is also undoubtable that those "sucked" players should never get the chance untill they perform better.
You forgot Grubby This is a foreign guy who deserves that. Hes a hardwork guy. Btw. So sad for Jim. But as i said before, someone do some shit (Illegal imigration, terrorism, etc) and the rest of the good people pay the price. Sad, but our world is like that.
On August 19 2013 23:43 DinoMight wrote: Why are there so many frickin Visa issues? Is Jim the only Chinese person trying to enter Germany?? Did they just not plan far enough ahead of time for this?
This seems like it should be such a non-issue. Maybe they should look into how this is done for conventional sports. Chinese atheletes compete everywhere all the time.
Jim is under 18 years old and he needs a letters from his parents saying someone can act as his guardian while he is there. It’s a requirement in Germany and the letter must be signed by his parent and notarized. He couldn’t get it in time and cannot go because of it.
Professional athletes have no problem because they have people who handle this shit for them. Jim doesn’t have that. Its just him and his coach and that is it. They are both young guys and they are learning things as they go.
Sounds like "Visa issues" then is "did not plan ahead."
I like Jim, but people need to start getting warnings / suspensions for this. So many spots being forfeited because of visa issues. It's not fair to the other players.
You go live in China, and apply for a German visa. Good luck Friends of mine took 6 months getting the Visa, they got it the day before the flight, but it took crazy long.
Having lived in China for a couple of years now and having travelled with my Chinese gf on lots of occasions, I have to say getting a (tourist) visa is definitely not hard for Chinese people and it doesn't take a long time.
I guess officially can't work on a tourist visa however, so they might require a different type of visa. Not sure what visa is required in the Schengen area (prob business or something like that), but I think it shouldn't be too hard acquiring it when having a valid reason and paperwork ...
I wonder... do progamers get business visas (or whatever visa is required) or do they just go on tourist visa. I think there should be little risk of getting caught...
Would you risk getting caught and having your career jeopardized for the sake of a tournament? I think being paid by Blizzard, which is a multinational software developer, is a bit different than taking a tourist visa and getting paid under the table by an independent organization.
The difference between a business visa and a tourist visa is night and day. Doing things on business means that you are representing a group greater than just yourself.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
let me tell u why, American players suck because they dont have the ability to get qualified, so it does not make any sense to let thouse "sucked" Americans go into the Global final. If u want a region block, just watch the WCG global final, full of "sucked" players from other region rather than Korea and China, which makes the global final really stupid to watch, and it is a fact that the average skill is much worse than WCG Korea region. I dont care whether those "sucked" foreign players have the chance or not, they suck so they dont get the chance, i am not telling u i want a total Korean global final, for i like those really skillful foreign players who have still got qualified into the global final such as Naniwa and Scarlett, even in the situation u have mentioned "Korean and Chinese players robbing the spots". Naniwa and Scarlett have been qualified for the global final just because they have the skill. It is no doubt that skillful players have their rights to get into the global final, but meanwhile, it is also undoubtable that those "sucked" players should never get the chance untill they perform better.
The flaw in your logic is that any "sucky" player is better than no player at all. No matter how you slice it, this is an opportunity. If Jim can't make it (which sucks because he earned it I don't disagree) then it doesn't make sense to have the spot empty any percentage of the time.
I love Violet for instance, but at this point I'd make him play in Korea after 2 events he could not make. There needs to be some penalty for this if there isn't a huge change to the WCS model.
WCS needs a SEA region, or realistically should just have country specific leagues that culminate into a single, final tournament in one country that is 2-3 weeks after the country qualifiers, so it's considerably easier for a player to get their visas set up.
While I agree that the player himself bears the ultimate responsibility for getting visas, I cant help but to empathize Jim. Having to arrange for numerous Chinese notarizations as part of my day job, they in relative terms take more time and generally a pain in the ass. Sometimes, if the power of attorney is in Chinese, then there may be a question of whether the power of attorney has to be translated and thus whether the translated power of attorney (which is now in German) needs to be notarized as well. And then Guangdong notary public may say he cant notarize the translation 'cause he does not know German (perhaps unless someone else can notarise the translation). TT
To sum it up, it all depends on what the requirements are but if a Chinese notarization is required, then you definitely need to give more time and attention (and money) in arranging for such legal documentation - because it aint that simple.
Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
I'm very tired of players with VISA issues fucking with blizzard and WCS.
[...]
(Excluding the current case with Jim) Yes, it is clearly their fault if they get turned down even though they provide all the necessary documents plus official papers from blizzard. /s
edit: Though I agree with a valid visa being required to qualify for the regional / season finals. The regular season (up till the finals) should leave them with enough time to apply for one.
But they didn't provide all the necessary documents if you read the Weibo post about the details. Jim's mom kind of screwed him over more than any other person, if we're honest.
I will say that I don't agree with region-locking but visa-checking should be instituted. Before you play in any Premier League, you should prove you have all the documentation necessary to go to the region and potentially to the season finals. It seems pretty dumb that players could qualify but then not go because of visa problems.
Well, ultimately it is still Jim and his manager's responsibility to ensure that everything is alright. Blaming his mother... that kind of reminds me of a student who blamed his failing of the exam on his broken printer, since he could not prepare properly (you were allowed to bring a sheet of paper with stuff on it to the exam).
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
Depends on what you mean with "big".
In terms of having a lot of highly skilled players: well, just look how the Chinese fared in the WCS NA compared to the NA players(also in the qualifiers that they were able to participate), also there are some good players in Australia and there is Sen In terms of having enough potential viewers: yes, definitely
The only thing that I am afraid of is that they do not have the experience of running global events and promoting it over the borders of their respective countries.
I'm very tired of players with VISA issues fucking with blizzard and WCS.
[...]
(Excluding the current case with Jim) Yes, it is clearly their fault if they get turned down even though they provide all the necessary documents plus official papers from blizzard. /s
edit: Though I agree with a valid visa being required to qualify for the regional / season finals. The regular season (up till the finals) should leave them with enough time to apply for one.
But they didn't provide all the necessary documents if you read the Weibo post about the details. Jim's mom kind of screwed him over more than any other person, if we're honest.
I will say that I don't agree with region-locking but visa-checking should be instituted. Before you play in any Premier League, you should prove you have all the documentation necessary to go to the region and potentially to the season finals. It seems pretty dumb that players could qualify but then not go because of visa problems.
Well, ultimately it is still Jim and his manager's responsibility to ensure that everything is alright. Blaming his mother... that kind of reminds me of a student who blamed his failing of the exam on his broken printer, since he could not prepare properly (you were allowed to bring a sheet of paper with stuff on it to the exam).
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
Depends on what you mean with "big".
In terms of having a lot of highly skilled players: well, just look how the Chinese fared in the WCS NA compared to the NA players(also in the qualifiers that they were able to participate), also there are some good players in Australia and there is Sen In terms of having enough potential viewers: yes, definitely
The only thing that I am afraid of is that they do not have the experience of running global events and promoting it over the borders of their respective countries.
well, i meant big enough to justify an entirely new WCS, including all the associated costs and headaches, when they can just participate in the WCS KR one. i don't really see the results so far justifying Blizzard splitting the prizepool four ways or creating a whole new tournament with its resultant conflicts and costs. china/taiwan/austalia (i am curious who these aussie players are) can just participate in wcs kr.
I'm very tired of players with VISA issues fucking with blizzard and WCS.
[...]
(Excluding the current case with Jim) Yes, it is clearly their fault if they get turned down even though they provide all the necessary documents plus official papers from blizzard. /s
edit: Though I agree with a valid visa being required to qualify for the regional / season finals. The regular season (up till the finals) should leave them with enough time to apply for one.
But they didn't provide all the necessary documents if you read the Weibo post about the details. Jim's mom kind of screwed him over more than any other person, if we're honest.
I will say that I don't agree with region-locking but visa-checking should be instituted. Before you play in any Premier League, you should prove you have all the documentation necessary to go to the region and potentially to the season finals. It seems pretty dumb that players could qualify but then not go because of visa problems.
Well, ultimately it is still Jim and his manager's responsibility to ensure that everything is alright. Blaming his mother... that kind of reminds me of a student who blamed his failing of the exam on his broken printer, since he could not prepare properly (you were allowed to bring a sheet of paper with stuff on it to the exam).
On August 21 2013 02:33 dAPhREAk wrote:
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
Depends on what you mean with "big".
In terms of having a lot of highly skilled players: well, just look how the Chinese fared in the WCS NA compared to the NA players(also in the qualifiers that they were able to participate), also there are some good players in Australia and there is Sen In terms of having enough potential viewers: yes, definitely
The only thing that I am afraid of is that they do not have the experience of running global events and promoting it over the borders of their respective countries.
well, i meant big enough to justify an entirely new WCS, including all the associated costs and headaches, when they can just participate in the WCS KR one. i don't really see the results so far justifying Blizzard splitting the prizepool four ways or creating a whole new tournament with its resultant conflicts and costs. china/taiwan/austalia (i am curious who these aussie players are) can just participate in wcs kr.
Moonglade managed to reach ro8 in the first WCS NA and has repeatedly proven that he is able to compete with the top native NA players. I also think that PiG is good enough to stand out in the national scene of any European nation, should he decide to live there.
Anyways, you cannot "just participate" in WCS KR, as it is entirely offline. You need to move there and live there an extendet period of time to do so, which is a huge hassle unless you just decide to move there entirely. And moving there entirely might not be possible if you come from certain countries.
I'm very tired of players with VISA issues fucking with blizzard and WCS.
[...]
(Excluding the current case with Jim) Yes, it is clearly their fault if they get turned down even though they provide all the necessary documents plus official papers from blizzard. /s
edit: Though I agree with a valid visa being required to qualify for the regional / season finals. The regular season (up till the finals) should leave them with enough time to apply for one.
But they didn't provide all the necessary documents if you read the Weibo post about the details. Jim's mom kind of screwed him over more than any other person, if we're honest.
I will say that I don't agree with region-locking but visa-checking should be instituted. Before you play in any Premier League, you should prove you have all the documentation necessary to go to the region and potentially to the season finals. It seems pretty dumb that players could qualify but then not go because of visa problems.
Well, ultimately it is still Jim and his manager's responsibility to ensure that everything is alright. Blaming his mother... that kind of reminds me of a student who blamed his failing of the exam on his broken printer, since he could not prepare properly (you were allowed to bring a sheet of paper with stuff on it to the exam).
On August 21 2013 02:33 dAPhREAk wrote:
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
Depends on what you mean with "big".
In terms of having a lot of highly skilled players: well, just look how the Chinese fared in the WCS NA compared to the NA players(also in the qualifiers that they were able to participate), also there are some good players in Australia and there is Sen In terms of having enough potential viewers: yes, definitely
The only thing that I am afraid of is that they do not have the experience of running global events and promoting it over the borders of their respective countries.
well, i meant big enough to justify an entirely new WCS, including all the associated costs and headaches, when they can just participate in the WCS KR one. i don't really see the results so far justifying Blizzard splitting the prizepool four ways or creating a whole new tournament with its resultant conflicts and costs. china/taiwan/austalia (i am curious who these aussie players are) can just participate in wcs kr.
Moonglade managed to reach ro8 in the first WCS NA and has repeatedly proven that he is able to compete with the top native NA players. I also think that PiG is good enough to stand out in the national scene of any European nation, should he decide to live there.
Anyways, you cannot "just participate" in WCS KR, as it is entirely offline. You need to move there and live there an extendet period of time to do so, which is a huge hassle unless you just decide to move there entirely. And moving there entirely might not be possible if you come from certain countries.
i had forgotten that it was entirely offline. interesting de facto monopoly the koreans have over the wcs kr.
doesnt really make sense to have another wcs region for less than a dozen decent players. plus, if you open up WCS china/taiwan/wherever, we all know what will happen -- koreans will flood it since it is so convenient travelwise. it will end up being wcs kr.
I'm very tired of players with VISA issues fucking with blizzard and WCS.
[...]
(Excluding the current case with Jim) Yes, it is clearly their fault if they get turned down even though they provide all the necessary documents plus official papers from blizzard. /s
edit: Though I agree with a valid visa being required to qualify for the regional / season finals. The regular season (up till the finals) should leave them with enough time to apply for one.
But they didn't provide all the necessary documents if you read the Weibo post about the details. Jim's mom kind of screwed him over more than any other person, if we're honest.
I will say that I don't agree with region-locking but visa-checking should be instituted. Before you play in any Premier League, you should prove you have all the documentation necessary to go to the region and potentially to the season finals. It seems pretty dumb that players could qualify but then not go because of visa problems.
Well, ultimately it is still Jim and his manager's responsibility to ensure that everything is alright. Blaming his mother... that kind of reminds me of a student who blamed his failing of the exam on his broken printer, since he could not prepare properly (you were allowed to bring a sheet of paper with stuff on it to the exam).
On August 21 2013 02:33 dAPhREAk wrote:
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
Depends on what you mean with "big".
In terms of having a lot of highly skilled players: well, just look how the Chinese fared in the WCS NA compared to the NA players(also in the qualifiers that they were able to participate), also there are some good players in Australia and there is Sen In terms of having enough potential viewers: yes, definitely
The only thing that I am afraid of is that they do not have the experience of running global events and promoting it over the borders of their respective countries.
well, i meant big enough to justify an entirely new WCS, including all the associated costs and headaches, when they can just participate in the WCS KR one. i don't really see the results so far justifying Blizzard splitting the prizepool four ways or creating a whole new tournament with its resultant conflicts and costs. china/taiwan/austalia (i am curious who these aussie players are) can just participate in wcs kr.
Moonglade managed to reach ro8 in the first WCS NA and has repeatedly proven that he is able to compete with the top native NA players. I also think that PiG is good enough to stand out in the national scene of any European nation, should he decide to live there.
Anyways, you cannot "just participate" in WCS KR, as it is entirely offline. You need to move there and live there an extendet period of time to do so, which is a huge hassle unless you just decide to move there entirely. And moving there entirely might not be possible if you come from certain countries.
i had forgotten that it was entirely offline. interesting de facto monopoly the koreans have over the wcs kr.
doesnt really make sense to have another wcs region for less than a dozen decent players. plus, if you open up WCS china/taiwan/wherever, we all know what will happen -- koreans will flood it since it is so convenient travelwise. it will end up being wcs kr.
Hmm...dozen decent players. Well, objectively you could close WCS AM and open up WCS China/SEA then, no?
I'm very tired of players with VISA issues fucking with blizzard and WCS.
[...]
(Excluding the current case with Jim) Yes, it is clearly their fault if they get turned down even though they provide all the necessary documents plus official papers from blizzard. /s
edit: Though I agree with a valid visa being required to qualify for the regional / season finals. The regular season (up till the finals) should leave them with enough time to apply for one.
But they didn't provide all the necessary documents if you read the Weibo post about the details. Jim's mom kind of screwed him over more than any other person, if we're honest.
I will say that I don't agree with region-locking but visa-checking should be instituted. Before you play in any Premier League, you should prove you have all the documentation necessary to go to the region and potentially to the season finals. It seems pretty dumb that players could qualify but then not go because of visa problems.
Well, ultimately it is still Jim and his manager's responsibility to ensure that everything is alright. Blaming his mother... that kind of reminds me of a student who blamed his failing of the exam on his broken printer, since he could not prepare properly (you were allowed to bring a sheet of paper with stuff on it to the exam).
On August 21 2013 02:33 dAPhREAk wrote:
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
Depends on what you mean with "big".
In terms of having a lot of highly skilled players: well, just look how the Chinese fared in the WCS NA compared to the NA players(also in the qualifiers that they were able to participate), also there are some good players in Australia and there is Sen In terms of having enough potential viewers: yes, definitely
The only thing that I am afraid of is that they do not have the experience of running global events and promoting it over the borders of their respective countries.
well, i meant big enough to justify an entirely new WCS, including all the associated costs and headaches, when they can just participate in the WCS KR one. i don't really see the results so far justifying Blizzard splitting the prizepool four ways or creating a whole new tournament with its resultant conflicts and costs. china/taiwan/austalia (i am curious who these aussie players are) can just participate in wcs kr.
Moonglade managed to reach ro8 in the first WCS NA and has repeatedly proven that he is able to compete with the top native NA players. I also think that PiG is good enough to stand out in the national scene of any European nation, should he decide to live there.
Anyways, you cannot "just participate" in WCS KR, as it is entirely offline. You need to move there and live there an extendet period of time to do so, which is a huge hassle unless you just decide to move there entirely. And moving there entirely might not be possible if you come from certain countries.
i had forgotten that it was entirely offline. interesting de facto monopoly the koreans have over the wcs kr.
doesnt really make sense to have another wcs region for less than a dozen decent players. plus, if you open up WCS china/taiwan/wherever, we all know what will happen -- koreans will flood it since it is so convenient travelwise. it will end up being wcs kr.
Hmm...dozen decent players. Well, objectively you could close WCS AM and open up WCS China/SEA then, no?
for political reasons, no. blizzard cant abandon its home country even if they do suck.
edit: plus, they just set up this whole system to make america/california relevant as far as esports. it wouldnt do to move it out of america. where WCS should be held is twofold (probably more): 1. availability of players, and 2. cost of tournament. they have already incurred the latter.
I'm very tired of players with VISA issues fucking with blizzard and WCS.
[...]
(Excluding the current case with Jim) Yes, it is clearly their fault if they get turned down even though they provide all the necessary documents plus official papers from blizzard. /s
edit: Though I agree with a valid visa being required to qualify for the regional / season finals. The regular season (up till the finals) should leave them with enough time to apply for one.
But they didn't provide all the necessary documents if you read the Weibo post about the details. Jim's mom kind of screwed him over more than any other person, if we're honest.
I will say that I don't agree with region-locking but visa-checking should be instituted. Before you play in any Premier League, you should prove you have all the documentation necessary to go to the region and potentially to the season finals. It seems pretty dumb that players could qualify but then not go because of visa problems.
Well, ultimately it is still Jim and his manager's responsibility to ensure that everything is alright. Blaming his mother... that kind of reminds me of a student who blamed his failing of the exam on his broken printer, since he could not prepare properly (you were allowed to bring a sheet of paper with stuff on it to the exam).
On August 21 2013 02:33 dAPhREAk wrote:
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
Depends on what you mean with "big".
In terms of having a lot of highly skilled players: well, just look how the Chinese fared in the WCS NA compared to the NA players(also in the qualifiers that they were able to participate), also there are some good players in Australia and there is Sen In terms of having enough potential viewers: yes, definitely
The only thing that I am afraid of is that they do not have the experience of running global events and promoting it over the borders of their respective countries.
well, i meant big enough to justify an entirely new WCS, including all the associated costs and headaches, when they can just participate in the WCS KR one. i don't really see the results so far justifying Blizzard splitting the prizepool four ways or creating a whole new tournament with its resultant conflicts and costs. china/taiwan/austalia (i am curious who these aussie players are) can just participate in wcs kr.
Moonglade managed to reach ro8 in the first WCS NA and has repeatedly proven that he is able to compete with the top native NA players. I also think that PiG is good enough to stand out in the national scene of any European nation, should he decide to live there.
Anyways, you cannot "just participate" in WCS KR, as it is entirely offline. You need to move there and live there an extendet period of time to do so, which is a huge hassle unless you just decide to move there entirely. And moving there entirely might not be possible if you come from certain countries.
i had forgotten that it was entirely offline. interesting de facto monopoly the koreans have over the wcs kr.
doesnt really make sense to have another wcs region for less than a dozen decent players. plus, if you open up WCS china/taiwan/wherever, we all know what will happen -- koreans will flood it since it is so convenient travelwise. it will end up being wcs kr.
Hmm...dozen decent players. Well, objectively you could close WCS AM and open up WCS China/SEA then, no?
for political reasons, no. blizzard cant abandon its home country even if they do suck.
I am sure that would go over well with all the AM fans and players who supported the scene, since a large number of viewers are from AM. And its not like Kepsa or ESF are going to allow for online qualifiers, since that would make it easier for non-koreans to qualify.
I'm very tired of players with VISA issues fucking with blizzard and WCS.
[...]
(Excluding the current case with Jim) Yes, it is clearly their fault if they get turned down even though they provide all the necessary documents plus official papers from blizzard. /s
edit: Though I agree with a valid visa being required to qualify for the regional / season finals. The regular season (up till the finals) should leave them with enough time to apply for one.
But they didn't provide all the necessary documents if you read the Weibo post about the details. Jim's mom kind of screwed him over more than any other person, if we're honest.
I will say that I don't agree with region-locking but visa-checking should be instituted. Before you play in any Premier League, you should prove you have all the documentation necessary to go to the region and potentially to the season finals. It seems pretty dumb that players could qualify but then not go because of visa problems.
Well, ultimately it is still Jim and his manager's responsibility to ensure that everything is alright. Blaming his mother... that kind of reminds me of a student who blamed his failing of the exam on his broken printer, since he could not prepare properly (you were allowed to bring a sheet of paper with stuff on it to the exam).
On August 21 2013 02:33 dAPhREAk wrote:
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
Depends on what you mean with "big".
In terms of having a lot of highly skilled players: well, just look how the Chinese fared in the WCS NA compared to the NA players(also in the qualifiers that they were able to participate), also there are some good players in Australia and there is Sen In terms of having enough potential viewers: yes, definitely
The only thing that I am afraid of is that they do not have the experience of running global events and promoting it over the borders of their respective countries.
well, i meant big enough to justify an entirely new WCS, including all the associated costs and headaches, when they can just participate in the WCS KR one. i don't really see the results so far justifying Blizzard splitting the prizepool four ways or creating a whole new tournament with its resultant conflicts and costs. china/taiwan/austalia (i am curious who these aussie players are) can just participate in wcs kr.
Moonglade managed to reach ro8 in the first WCS NA and has repeatedly proven that he is able to compete with the top native NA players. I also think that PiG is good enough to stand out in the national scene of any European nation, should he decide to live there.
Anyways, you cannot "just participate" in WCS KR, as it is entirely offline. You need to move there and live there an extendet period of time to do so, which is a huge hassle unless you just decide to move there entirely. And moving there entirely might not be possible if you come from certain countries.
i had forgotten that it was entirely offline. interesting de facto monopoly the koreans have over the wcs kr.
doesnt really make sense to have another wcs region for less than a dozen decent players. plus, if you open up WCS china/taiwan/wherever, we all know what will happen -- koreans will flood it since it is so convenient travelwise. it will end up being wcs kr.
Hmm...dozen decent players. Well, objectively you could close WCS AM and open up WCS China/SEA then, no?
for political reasons, no. blizzard cant abandon its home country even if they do suck.
edit: plus, they just set up this whole system to make america/california relevant as far as esports. it wouldnt do to move it out of america. where WCS should be held is twofold (probably more): 1. availability of players, and 2. cost of tournament. they have already incurred the latter.
I agree with the political reason, moreso with economical reasoning. What I don't agree with, is that the players in the SEA/CN region don't derserve their own WCS next time the circuit starts. I see no good reason against it tbh.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
More motivation to the players to get better so they don't lose to these players? Especially if some of these players have potential lag issues.
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
Is this actually Jim's fault?
Regardless, it's a pity that he had to forfeit his spot. I know the Chinese players have a pretty big following in the community. Best of luck to Alive though!
he's not saying it's jim's fault
There definitely needs to be a system in place for taking care of players who can't acquire visas, because it takes away opportunities from other players and makes for shitty tournament situations (walkover lottery against viOLet 2 seasons in a row).
I'd prefer it be a system where they find replacements for absent players, but given the # of players someone like violet can eliminate on his way up, suspensions for multiple violations might be necessary on top of that.
If only the US Government would stop being useless, braindead cunts and recognize SC2 as a sport the same as they did for LoL. SC2 is closer to a physical sport than LoL 100x over, and LoL got recognition months ago. I've never heard of players having injuries playing LoL. The best BW player and the best WoL player were known for having wrist issues. It's a sad thing that LoL was recognized before SC2 in so many ways, but I'm done bitching about it (until the next time a SC2 player is denied a visa).
Really, this shouldn't be happening, but this is the state of the international tournament scene. Visas being denied and unavailable to the players is just such a sad way to ruin a tournament. I'd rather he get the flu to forfeit a match because at least that doesn't happen often and it more often than not wasn't within anyone's control to prevent that.
I'm very tired of players with VISA issues fucking with blizzard and WCS.
[...]
(Excluding the current case with Jim) Yes, it is clearly their fault if they get turned down even though they provide all the necessary documents plus official papers from blizzard. /s
edit: Though I agree with a valid visa being required to qualify for the regional / season finals. The regular season (up till the finals) should leave them with enough time to apply for one.
But they didn't provide all the necessary documents if you read the Weibo post about the details. Jim's mom kind of screwed him over more than any other person, if we're honest.
I will say that I don't agree with region-locking but visa-checking should be instituted. Before you play in any Premier League, you should prove you have all the documentation necessary to go to the region and potentially to the season finals. It seems pretty dumb that players could qualify but then not go because of visa problems.
Well, ultimately it is still Jim and his manager's responsibility to ensure that everything is alright. Blaming his mother... that kind of reminds me of a student who blamed his failing of the exam on his broken printer, since he could not prepare properly (you were allowed to bring a sheet of paper with stuff on it to the exam).
On August 21 2013 02:33 dAPhREAk wrote:
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
Depends on what you mean with "big".
In terms of having a lot of highly skilled players: well, just look how the Chinese fared in the WCS NA compared to the NA players(also in the qualifiers that they were able to participate), also there are some good players in Australia and there is Sen In terms of having enough potential viewers: yes, definitely
The only thing that I am afraid of is that they do not have the experience of running global events and promoting it over the borders of their respective countries.
well, i meant big enough to justify an entirely new WCS, including all the associated costs and headaches, when they can just participate in the WCS KR one. i don't really see the results so far justifying Blizzard splitting the prizepool four ways or creating a whole new tournament with its resultant conflicts and costs. china/taiwan/austalia (i am curious who these aussie players are) can just participate in wcs kr.
Moonglade managed to reach ro8 in the first WCS NA and has repeatedly proven that he is able to compete with the top native NA players. I also think that PiG is good enough to stand out in the national scene of any European nation, should he decide to live there.
Anyways, you cannot "just participate" in WCS KR, as it is entirely offline. You need to move there and live there an extendet period of time to do so, which is a huge hassle unless you just decide to move there entirely. And moving there entirely might not be possible if you come from certain countries.
i had forgotten that it was entirely offline. interesting de facto monopoly the koreans have over the wcs kr.
doesnt really make sense to have another wcs region for less than a dozen decent players. plus, if you open up WCS china/taiwan/wherever, we all know what will happen -- koreans will flood it since it is so convenient travelwise. it will end up being wcs kr.
Hmm...dozen decent players. Well, objectively you could close WCS AM and open up WCS China/SEA then, no?
for political reasons, no. blizzard cant abandon its home country even if they do suck.
edit: plus, they just set up this whole system to make america/california relevant as far as esports. it wouldnt do to move it out of america. where WCS should be held is twofold (probably more): 1. availability of players, and 2. cost of tournament. they have already incurred the latter.
I agree with the political reason, moreso with economical reasoning. What I don't agree with, is that the players in the SEA/CN region don't derserve their own WCS next time the circuit starts. I see no good reason against it tbh.
Regions are not based on player skill, they are based on viewers and who is willing to watch. The Korea region already has that time zone covered and NA is where the viewers and money from viewers is. The players with the skill need to move to the region where the games are being played, just like all profession sports.
I'm very tired of players with VISA issues fucking with blizzard and WCS.
[...]
(Excluding the current case with Jim) Yes, it is clearly their fault if they get turned down even though they provide all the necessary documents plus official papers from blizzard. /s
edit: Though I agree with a valid visa being required to qualify for the regional / season finals. The regular season (up till the finals) should leave them with enough time to apply for one.
But they didn't provide all the necessary documents if you read the Weibo post about the details. Jim's mom kind of screwed him over more than any other person, if we're honest.
I will say that I don't agree with region-locking but visa-checking should be instituted. Before you play in any Premier League, you should prove you have all the documentation necessary to go to the region and potentially to the season finals. It seems pretty dumb that players could qualify but then not go because of visa problems.
Well, ultimately it is still Jim and his manager's responsibility to ensure that everything is alright. Blaming his mother... that kind of reminds me of a student who blamed his failing of the exam on his broken printer, since he could not prepare properly (you were allowed to bring a sheet of paper with stuff on it to the exam).
On August 21 2013 02:33 dAPhREAk wrote:
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
Depends on what you mean with "big".
In terms of having a lot of highly skilled players: well, just look how the Chinese fared in the WCS NA compared to the NA players(also in the qualifiers that they were able to participate), also there are some good players in Australia and there is Sen In terms of having enough potential viewers: yes, definitely
The only thing that I am afraid of is that they do not have the experience of running global events and promoting it over the borders of their respective countries.
well, i meant big enough to justify an entirely new WCS, including all the associated costs and headaches, when they can just participate in the WCS KR one. i don't really see the results so far justifying Blizzard splitting the prizepool four ways or creating a whole new tournament with its resultant conflicts and costs. china/taiwan/austalia (i am curious who these aussie players are) can just participate in wcs kr.
Moonglade managed to reach ro8 in the first WCS NA and has repeatedly proven that he is able to compete with the top native NA players. I also think that PiG is good enough to stand out in the national scene of any European nation, should he decide to live there.
Anyways, you cannot "just participate" in WCS KR, as it is entirely offline. You need to move there and live there an extendet period of time to do so, which is a huge hassle unless you just decide to move there entirely. And moving there entirely might not be possible if you come from certain countries.
i had forgotten that it was entirely offline. interesting de facto monopoly the koreans have over the wcs kr.
doesnt really make sense to have another wcs region for less than a dozen decent players. plus, if you open up WCS china/taiwan/wherever, we all know what will happen -- koreans will flood it since it is so convenient travelwise. it will end up being wcs kr.
Hmm...dozen decent players. Well, objectively you could close WCS AM and open up WCS China/SEA then, no?
for political reasons, no. blizzard cant abandon its home country even if they do suck.
edit: plus, they just set up this whole system to make america/california relevant as far as esports. it wouldnt do to move it out of america. where WCS should be held is twofold (probably more): 1. availability of players, and 2. cost of tournament. they have already incurred the latter.
I agree with the political reason, moreso with economical reasoning. What I don't agree with, is that the players in the SEA/CN region don't derserve their own WCS next time the circuit starts. I see no good reason against it tbh.
easy to say when you arent writing the checks.
honestly, if sc2 is well received in china (i understand it was just recently released there) then i expect blizzard will create a new wcs for them specifically. its a good investment on their part. it will depend on how its received there though. i don't think blizzard really cares about SEA though outside of korea and china. there is no real market there to exploit.
On August 20 2013 08:59 JustPassingBy wrote: [quote]
(Excluding the current case with Jim) Yes, it is clearly their fault if they get turned down even though they provide all the necessary documents plus official papers from blizzard. /s
edit: Though I agree with a valid visa being required to qualify for the regional / season finals. The regular season (up till the finals) should leave them with enough time to apply for one.
But they didn't provide all the necessary documents if you read the Weibo post about the details. Jim's mom kind of screwed him over more than any other person, if we're honest.
I will say that I don't agree with region-locking but visa-checking should be instituted. Before you play in any Premier League, you should prove you have all the documentation necessary to go to the region and potentially to the season finals. It seems pretty dumb that players could qualify but then not go because of visa problems.
Well, ultimately it is still Jim and his manager's responsibility to ensure that everything is alright. Blaming his mother... that kind of reminds me of a student who blamed his failing of the exam on his broken printer, since he could not prepare properly (you were allowed to bring a sheet of paper with stuff on it to the exam).
On August 21 2013 02:33 dAPhREAk wrote:
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
Depends on what you mean with "big".
In terms of having a lot of highly skilled players: well, just look how the Chinese fared in the WCS NA compared to the NA players(also in the qualifiers that they were able to participate), also there are some good players in Australia and there is Sen In terms of having enough potential viewers: yes, definitely
The only thing that I am afraid of is that they do not have the experience of running global events and promoting it over the borders of their respective countries.
well, i meant big enough to justify an entirely new WCS, including all the associated costs and headaches, when they can just participate in the WCS KR one. i don't really see the results so far justifying Blizzard splitting the prizepool four ways or creating a whole new tournament with its resultant conflicts and costs. china/taiwan/austalia (i am curious who these aussie players are) can just participate in wcs kr.
Moonglade managed to reach ro8 in the first WCS NA and has repeatedly proven that he is able to compete with the top native NA players. I also think that PiG is good enough to stand out in the national scene of any European nation, should he decide to live there.
Anyways, you cannot "just participate" in WCS KR, as it is entirely offline. You need to move there and live there an extendet period of time to do so, which is a huge hassle unless you just decide to move there entirely. And moving there entirely might not be possible if you come from certain countries.
i had forgotten that it was entirely offline. interesting de facto monopoly the koreans have over the wcs kr.
doesnt really make sense to have another wcs region for less than a dozen decent players. plus, if you open up WCS china/taiwan/wherever, we all know what will happen -- koreans will flood it since it is so convenient travelwise. it will end up being wcs kr.
Hmm...dozen decent players. Well, objectively you could close WCS AM and open up WCS China/SEA then, no?
for political reasons, no. blizzard cant abandon its home country even if they do suck.
edit: plus, they just set up this whole system to make america/california relevant as far as esports. it wouldnt do to move it out of america. where WCS should be held is twofold (probably more): 1. availability of players, and 2. cost of tournament. they have already incurred the latter.
I agree with the political reason, moreso with economical reasoning. What I don't agree with, is that the players in the SEA/CN region don't derserve their own WCS next time the circuit starts. I see no good reason against it tbh.
Regions are not based on player skill, they are based on viewers and who is willing to watch. The Korea region already has that time zone covered and NA is where the viewers and money from viewers is. The players with the skill need to move to the region where the games are being played, just like all profession sports.
That is so far from my point, I find it hard to respond to it, but I will try: With the current system players in CN/SEA are quite screwed over without any good reason. They can't realistically compete in Korea due to the nature of the offline tournament - which due to the special situation regarding tradition, importance and player quality in Korea is justified - and ever other region is not realistically close and travelling there - especially from China will often be a problem.
Whether there will be a lot of viewers for a WCS CN/SEA needs to be seen; everything about this is just speculation.
I don't get why the argument "care for the players there" does not stick, unless it is something against China from a political PoV, which has nothing to be in sports.
On August 20 2013 09:14 coverpunch wrote: [quote] But they didn't provide all the necessary documents if you read the Weibo post about the details. Jim's mom kind of screwed him over more than any other person, if we're honest.
I will say that I don't agree with region-locking but visa-checking should be instituted. Before you play in any Premier League, you should prove you have all the documentation necessary to go to the region and potentially to the season finals. It seems pretty dumb that players could qualify but then not go because of visa problems.
Well, ultimately it is still Jim and his manager's responsibility to ensure that everything is alright. Blaming his mother... that kind of reminds me of a student who blamed his failing of the exam on his broken printer, since he could not prepare properly (you were allowed to bring a sheet of paper with stuff on it to the exam).
On August 21 2013 02:33 dAPhREAk wrote: [quote] are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
Depends on what you mean with "big".
In terms of having a lot of highly skilled players: well, just look how the Chinese fared in the WCS NA compared to the NA players(also in the qualifiers that they were able to participate), also there are some good players in Australia and there is Sen In terms of having enough potential viewers: yes, definitely
The only thing that I am afraid of is that they do not have the experience of running global events and promoting it over the borders of their respective countries.
well, i meant big enough to justify an entirely new WCS, including all the associated costs and headaches, when they can just participate in the WCS KR one. i don't really see the results so far justifying Blizzard splitting the prizepool four ways or creating a whole new tournament with its resultant conflicts and costs. china/taiwan/austalia (i am curious who these aussie players are) can just participate in wcs kr.
Moonglade managed to reach ro8 in the first WCS NA and has repeatedly proven that he is able to compete with the top native NA players. I also think that PiG is good enough to stand out in the national scene of any European nation, should he decide to live there.
Anyways, you cannot "just participate" in WCS KR, as it is entirely offline. You need to move there and live there an extendet period of time to do so, which is a huge hassle unless you just decide to move there entirely. And moving there entirely might not be possible if you come from certain countries.
i had forgotten that it was entirely offline. interesting de facto monopoly the koreans have over the wcs kr.
doesnt really make sense to have another wcs region for less than a dozen decent players. plus, if you open up WCS china/taiwan/wherever, we all know what will happen -- koreans will flood it since it is so convenient travelwise. it will end up being wcs kr.
Hmm...dozen decent players. Well, objectively you could close WCS AM and open up WCS China/SEA then, no?
for political reasons, no. blizzard cant abandon its home country even if they do suck.
edit: plus, they just set up this whole system to make america/california relevant as far as esports. it wouldnt do to move it out of america. where WCS should be held is twofold (probably more): 1. availability of players, and 2. cost of tournament. they have already incurred the latter.
I agree with the political reason, moreso with economical reasoning. What I don't agree with, is that the players in the SEA/CN region don't derserve their own WCS next time the circuit starts. I see no good reason against it tbh.
Regions are not based on player skill, they are based on viewers and who is willing to watch. The Korea region already has that time zone covered and NA is where the viewers and money from viewers is. The players with the skill need to move to the region where the games are being played, just like all profession sports.
That is so far from my point, I find it hard to respond to it, but I will try: With the current system players in CN/SEA are quite screwed over without any good reason. They can't realistically compete in Korea due to the nature of the offline tournament - which due to the special situation regarding tradition, importance and player quality in Korea is justified - and ever other region is not realistically close and travelling there - especially from China will often be a problem.
Whether there will be a lot of viewers for a WCS CN/SEA needs to be seen; everything about this is just speculation.
I don't get why the argument "care for the players there" does not stick, unless it is something against China from a political PoV, which has nothing to be in sports.
Yes, the tradition of making sure that Koreans have the best chance of qualifying and putting up barriers for other regions to try out in their regions. Meanwhile AM gets everyone else who could play on Korea, if the qualifiers were offline. Plus everyone from Korea that doesn’t thin they could qualify for WCS KR. And if we expect NA players to move to Korea to get better, people can move to NA to compete in WCS.
Really I just hope the whole thing is offline next year and we cut through the BS.
On August 21 2013 02:39 JustPassingBy wrote: [quote]
Well, ultimately it is still Jim and his manager's responsibility to ensure that everything is alright. Blaming his mother... that kind of reminds me of a student who blamed his failing of the exam on his broken printer, since he could not prepare properly (you were allowed to bring a sheet of paper with stuff on it to the exam).
[quote]
Depends on what you mean with "big".
In terms of having a lot of highly skilled players: well, just look how the Chinese fared in the WCS NA compared to the NA players(also in the qualifiers that they were able to participate), also there are some good players in Australia and there is Sen In terms of having enough potential viewers: yes, definitely
The only thing that I am afraid of is that they do not have the experience of running global events and promoting it over the borders of their respective countries.
well, i meant big enough to justify an entirely new WCS, including all the associated costs and headaches, when they can just participate in the WCS KR one. i don't really see the results so far justifying Blizzard splitting the prizepool four ways or creating a whole new tournament with its resultant conflicts and costs. china/taiwan/austalia (i am curious who these aussie players are) can just participate in wcs kr.
Moonglade managed to reach ro8 in the first WCS NA and has repeatedly proven that he is able to compete with the top native NA players. I also think that PiG is good enough to stand out in the national scene of any European nation, should he decide to live there.
Anyways, you cannot "just participate" in WCS KR, as it is entirely offline. You need to move there and live there an extendet period of time to do so, which is a huge hassle unless you just decide to move there entirely. And moving there entirely might not be possible if you come from certain countries.
i had forgotten that it was entirely offline. interesting de facto monopoly the koreans have over the wcs kr.
doesnt really make sense to have another wcs region for less than a dozen decent players. plus, if you open up WCS china/taiwan/wherever, we all know what will happen -- koreans will flood it since it is so convenient travelwise. it will end up being wcs kr.
Hmm...dozen decent players. Well, objectively you could close WCS AM and open up WCS China/SEA then, no?
for political reasons, no. blizzard cant abandon its home country even if they do suck.
edit: plus, they just set up this whole system to make america/california relevant as far as esports. it wouldnt do to move it out of america. where WCS should be held is twofold (probably more): 1. availability of players, and 2. cost of tournament. they have already incurred the latter.
I agree with the political reason, moreso with economical reasoning. What I don't agree with, is that the players in the SEA/CN region don't derserve their own WCS next time the circuit starts. I see no good reason against it tbh.
Regions are not based on player skill, they are based on viewers and who is willing to watch. The Korea region already has that time zone covered and NA is where the viewers and money from viewers is. The players with the skill need to move to the region where the games are being played, just like all profession sports.
That is so far from my point, I find it hard to respond to it, but I will try: With the current system players in CN/SEA are quite screwed over without any good reason. They can't realistically compete in Korea due to the nature of the offline tournament - which due to the special situation regarding tradition, importance and player quality in Korea is justified - and ever other region is not realistically close and travelling there - especially from China will often be a problem.
Whether there will be a lot of viewers for a WCS CN/SEA needs to be seen; everything about this is just speculation.
I don't get why the argument "care for the players there" does not stick, unless it is something against China from a political PoV, which has nothing to be in sports.
Yes, the tradition of making sure that Koreans have the best chance of qualifying and putting up barriers for other regions to try out in their regions. Meanwhile AM gets everyone else who could play on Korea, if the qualifiers were offline. Plus everyone from Korea that doesn’t thin they could qualify for WCS KR. And if we expect NA players to move to Korea to get better, people can move to NA to compete in WCS.
Really I just hope the whole thing is offline next year and we cut through the BS.
One solution is to have the blizzard fund GOM to re-open the GOM house for players that qualify for Code A, so Chinese and SEA players can compete there.
On August 21 2013 02:56 dAPhREAk wrote: [quote] well, i meant big enough to justify an entirely new WCS, including all the associated costs and headaches, when they can just participate in the WCS KR one. i don't really see the results so far justifying Blizzard splitting the prizepool four ways or creating a whole new tournament with its resultant conflicts and costs. china/taiwan/austalia (i am curious who these aussie players are) can just participate in wcs kr.
Moonglade managed to reach ro8 in the first WCS NA and has repeatedly proven that he is able to compete with the top native NA players. I also think that PiG is good enough to stand out in the national scene of any European nation, should he decide to live there.
Anyways, you cannot "just participate" in WCS KR, as it is entirely offline. You need to move there and live there an extendet period of time to do so, which is a huge hassle unless you just decide to move there entirely. And moving there entirely might not be possible if you come from certain countries.
i had forgotten that it was entirely offline. interesting de facto monopoly the koreans have over the wcs kr.
doesnt really make sense to have another wcs region for less than a dozen decent players. plus, if you open up WCS china/taiwan/wherever, we all know what will happen -- koreans will flood it since it is so convenient travelwise. it will end up being wcs kr.
Hmm...dozen decent players. Well, objectively you could close WCS AM and open up WCS China/SEA then, no?
for political reasons, no. blizzard cant abandon its home country even if they do suck.
edit: plus, they just set up this whole system to make america/california relevant as far as esports. it wouldnt do to move it out of america. where WCS should be held is twofold (probably more): 1. availability of players, and 2. cost of tournament. they have already incurred the latter.
I agree with the political reason, moreso with economical reasoning. What I don't agree with, is that the players in the SEA/CN region don't derserve their own WCS next time the circuit starts. I see no good reason against it tbh.
Regions are not based on player skill, they are based on viewers and who is willing to watch. The Korea region already has that time zone covered and NA is where the viewers and money from viewers is. The players with the skill need to move to the region where the games are being played, just like all profession sports.
That is so far from my point, I find it hard to respond to it, but I will try: With the current system players in CN/SEA are quite screwed over without any good reason. They can't realistically compete in Korea due to the nature of the offline tournament - which due to the special situation regarding tradition, importance and player quality in Korea is justified - and ever other region is not realistically close and travelling there - especially from China will often be a problem.
Whether there will be a lot of viewers for a WCS CN/SEA needs to be seen; everything about this is just speculation.
I don't get why the argument "care for the players there" does not stick, unless it is something against China from a political PoV, which has nothing to be in sports.
Yes, the tradition of making sure that Koreans have the best chance of qualifying and putting up barriers for other regions to try out in their regions. Meanwhile AM gets everyone else who could play on Korea, if the qualifiers were offline. Plus everyone from Korea that doesn’t thin they could qualify for WCS KR. And if we expect NA players to move to Korea to get better, people can move to NA to compete in WCS.
Really I just hope the whole thing is offline next year and we cut through the BS.
One solution is to have the blizzard fund GOM to re-open the GOM house for players that qualify for Code A, so Chinese and SEA players can compete there.
The GOM house was never really the solution to the problem. It gave people a place to stay, but not a lot of players used it due to personal conflicts. Its getting into the country, traveling abroad an living in the country while you are there. Without a sponsor, its nearly impossible.
How can jim has visa isue :s I thought that people who where good pr for china never had problems with their visa and stuff, like someone from the government always takes care of that. Maybe jim has done something wrong so the chinese goverment doesnt like him lol. Not sending him due to "visa problems" i find verry stupid/weird. He realy is good pr for china.
On August 21 2013 05:01 Rassy wrote: How can jim has visa isue :s I thought that people who where good pr for china never had problems with their visa and stuff, like someone from the government always takes care of that. Maybe jim has done something wrong so the chinese goverment doesnt like him lol. Not sending him due to "visa problems" i find verry stupid/weird. He realy is good pr for china.
It has nothing to do with the Chinese goverment....
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
You didn't read everything I posted in the OP. In order for someone in China or Taiwan to go to WCS KR, they would have had to go the GSL in person in order to compete. Very FEW people actually have the mony to back that, and to this day there have only been 4 Mandarin-speaking competitors that went to the GSL: Sen, Loner, XiGua, and MacSed.
Secondly, again I must stress to you that getting in to Challenger league in WCS KR requires players to be there in person, unlike WCS EU and WCS NA.
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
You didn't read everything I posted in the OP. In order for someone in China or Taiwan to go to WCS KR, they would have had to go the GSL in person in order to compete. Very FEW people actually have the mony to back that, and to this day there have only been 4 Mandarin-speaking competitors that went to the GSL: Sen, Loner, XiGua, and MacSed.
Secondly, again I must stress to you that getting in to Challenger league in WCS KR requires players to be there in person, unlike WCS EU and WCS NA.
yes, someone pointed that out to me. i had forgotten that WCS KR was different from the other regions.
Jim is to be 18 in October. I believe his coach only knows he is 18 in 2013, but actually 18 after his birthday in October. So his coach didn't realise this issue and thus forgot to prepare for the documents for minor applicants.
I am Chinese and once travelled to Europe. The documents for minor applicants took me about a week. First, the document had to be notarized, which took 3 work days. Then, the document had to be sent to the Foreign Affairs Office for further authorization, which took another several days. I think Jim's condition was harder than mine, as his mother had to go back to the place where he has his hukou. The schedule for Jim is so tight. Many people blamed his coach for his not preparing the documents. I believe this is part of his fault, as I mentioned at first, but the long process of preparing the documents also contribute to the problem.
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
You didn't read everything I posted in the OP. In order for someone in China or Taiwan to go to WCS KR, they would have had to go the GSL in person in order to compete. Very FEW people actually have the mony to back that, and to this day there have only been 4 Mandarin-speaking competitors that went to the GSL: Sen, Loner, XiGua, and MacSed.
Secondly, again I must stress to you that getting in to Challenger league in WCS KR requires players to be there in person, unlike WCS EU and WCS NA.
yes, someone pointed that out to me. i had forgotten that WCS KR was different from the other regions.
I also wanted to note that the problem is that you have to be there in person to even get a chance to qualify. Flying there to participate in Code S games where you are already guaranteed a decent amount of money is no problem. Flying there to participate in the Code A qualifiers, where - if you manage to qualify - you are only guaranteed 350$ on the other hand... (round flight Beijing <-> Seoul is easily 500$ and that is the flight alone)
edit: also, weirdly enough, the qualifiers for the next season are part of the last season, which means that there is a long time you have to wait, between the qualifiers and code A. so you either travel there twice (for qualifiers and for code a), or you need to book a hotel for a very long time, both very expensive.
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
You didn't read everything I posted in the OP. In order for someone in China or Taiwan to go to WCS KR, they would have had to go the GSL in person in order to compete. Very FEW people actually have the mony to back that, and to this day there have only been 4 Mandarin-speaking competitors that went to the GSL: Sen, Loner, XiGua, and MacSed.
Secondly, again I must stress to you that getting in to Challenger league in WCS KR requires players to be there in person, unlike WCS EU and WCS NA.
yes, someone pointed that out to me. i had forgotten that WCS KR was different from the other regions.
I also wanted to note that the problem is that you have to be there in person to even get a chance to qualify. Flying there to participate in Code S games where you are already guaranteed a decent amount of money is no problem. Flying there to participate in the Code A qualifiers, where - if you manage to qualify - you are only guaranteed 350$ on the other hand... (round flight Beijing <-> Seoul is easily 500$ and that is the flight alone)
edit: also, weirdly enough, the qualifiers for the next season are part of the last season, which means that there is a long time you have to wait, between the qualifiers and code A. so you either travel there twice (for qualifiers and for code a), or you need to book a hotel for a very long time, both very expensive.
It is more of the issue that Chinese players WON'T make it into Code S in Korea. Koreans are playing at a MUCH higher level than Chinese players, to the point where most KeSPA B-teamers will dominate 99% of Chinese top players. Opening up Korea's tournament system won't change the fact that Koreans are much much much better at Sc2 than the other regions combined. There isn't a eSport out there that they can't dominate if it is their will.
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
You didn't read everything I posted in the OP. In order for someone in China or Taiwan to go to WCS KR, they would have had to go the GSL in person in order to compete. Very FEW people actually have the mony to back that, and to this day there have only been 4 Mandarin-speaking competitors that went to the GSL: Sen, Loner, XiGua, and MacSed.
Secondly, again I must stress to you that getting in to Challenger league in WCS KR requires players to be there in person, unlike WCS EU and WCS NA.
yes, someone pointed that out to me. i had forgotten that WCS KR was different from the other regions.
I also wanted to note that the problem is that you have to be there in person to even get a chance to qualify. Flying there to participate in Code S games where you are already guaranteed a decent amount of money is no problem. Flying there to participate in the Code A qualifiers, where - if you manage to qualify - you are only guaranteed 350$ on the other hand... (round flight Beijing <-> Seoul is easily 500$ and that is the flight alone)
edit: also, weirdly enough, the qualifiers for the next season are part of the last season, which means that there is a long time you have to wait, between the qualifiers and code A. so you either travel there twice (for qualifiers and for code a), or you need to book a hotel for a very long time, both very expensive.
It is more of the issue that Chinese players WON'T make it into Code S in Korea. Koreans are playing at a MUCH higher level than Chinese players, to the point where most KeSPA B-teamers will dominate 99% of Chinese top players. Opening up Korea's tournament system won't change the fact that Koreans are much much much better at Sc2 than the other regions combined. There isn't a eSport out there that they can't dominate if it is their will.
I doubt that (not that Chinese players won't make it into Code S, but that this is the issue of them participating in WCS NA). I'm sure that if you provide the Chinese players an accessible way to participate in WCS Korea, they will definitely at least give it a try (as moving to WCS NA proved to be a major pain in the ass).
Just read the update and the issue about work visas, do you have to get a work visa if you're attending a tournament? Can't I go on holiday and play in a tournament while there? This is really weird and I don't get it, any immigration law experts here?
On August 21 2013 02:23 Enders116 wrote: Does anyone here believe that this is grounds for opening up a fourth WCS Region? My idea is that Season 1 could be covered by NeoTV in China with surplus funding by blizzard, Season 2 by TeSL (this would be HUGE in Taiwan), and Season 3 by ACL (Australia).
are any of those regions big enough to justify a fourth region? china and taiwan can just play in korea.
You didn't read everything I posted in the OP. In order for someone in China or Taiwan to go to WCS KR, they would have had to go the GSL in person in order to compete. Very FEW people actually have the mony to back that, and to this day there have only been 4 Mandarin-speaking competitors that went to the GSL: Sen, Loner, XiGua, and MacSed.
Secondly, again I must stress to you that getting in to Challenger league in WCS KR requires players to be there in person, unlike WCS EU and WCS NA.
yes, someone pointed that out to me. i had forgotten that WCS KR was different from the other regions.
I also wanted to note that the problem is that you have to be there in person to even get a chance to qualify. Flying there to participate in Code S games where you are already guaranteed a decent amount of money is no problem. Flying there to participate in the Code A qualifiers, where - if you manage to qualify - you are only guaranteed 350$ on the other hand... (round flight Beijing <-> Seoul is easily 500$ and that is the flight alone)
edit: also, weirdly enough, the qualifiers for the next season are part of the last season, which means that there is a long time you have to wait, between the qualifiers and code A. so you either travel there twice (for qualifiers and for code a), or you need to book a hotel for a very long time, both very expensive.
It is more of the issue that Chinese players WON'T make it into Code S in Korea. Koreans are playing at a MUCH higher level than Chinese players, to the point where most KeSPA B-teamers will dominate 99% of Chinese top players. Opening up Korea's tournament system won't change the fact that Koreans are much much much better at Sc2 than the other regions combined. There isn't a eSport out there that they can't dominate if it is their will.
I doubt that (not that Chinese players won't make it into Code S, but that this is the issue of them participating in WCS NA). I'm sure that if you provide the Chinese players an accessible way to participate in WCS Korea, they will definitely at least give it a try (as moving to WCS NA proved to be a major pain in the ass).
There have been more westerners who got in to the GSL than there have been Chinese-speaking players. They obviously wouldn't go to WCS KR because going to the GSL doesn't have the same prestige that it used to. Pro gamers don't tell themselves, "Yay! I'm going to this tournament! I'm going to win first prize!" They tell themselves, "Ok, let me see if I can qualify for Code A. Focus on this point, then when I've arrived at that point, I'll focus on the next point, and the next and the next and so on." When Jinro and Idra went to the GSL it didn't cost them a spot in the WCS if they won or lost, and that is precisely the reason why we didn't see any foreigners, be them English or Chinese speaking, at WCS KR Season 1 or Season 2.
And 99% of the Chinese would not go, I think Jim wouldn't either. Just because Jim can compete with Alive, Jaedong, Revival, etc, doesn't mean he can absolutely kill LGIMMVP, MMA, CM Storm Polt, Innovation, ST_Squirtle, ST_Hurricane, and so on. Who knows? Maybe that was the whole reason why Stephano left back in February (GSL became WCS, and Stephano didn't want to risk his neck any more with a tournament where he was risking lots of money).
The only real way to compel a player to go to the GSL is to completely disassociate it with WCS Korea.
China is not Korea. Please stop making this erroneous assessment.
On August 22 2013 00:03 Khai wrote: Just read the update and the issue about work visas, do you have to get a work visa if you're attending a tournament? Can't I go on holiday and play in a tournament while there? This is really weird and I don't get it, any immigration law experts here?
I don't believe that you can on a tourist visa since it's 'work' and you can make money.
Gambling isn't a great comparison, because the tourists are net overall losers vs the casino, and the casino pays tax on profits so it's in the countries interest for tourists to gamble, also would someone not need a working visa if they lost?
On August 19 2013 23:32 stratmatt wrote: IMO, anyone with a history of forfeiting wcs spots due to visa issues should be suspended for a season. I don't care if its harsh, because the only thing harsher is the fact that numerous players are missing out on a chance to compete due to losing to people who cant even make it to all their matches. How many more future NA spots are going to be robbed by koreans/chinese players who cant even attend the finals or sometimes even the ro16? Such bullshit.
He was replaced by alive who was next in line, no one was robbed of their place except Jim.. o.O
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bbIKhD3.png)
![[image loading]](http://ww2.sinaimg.cn/bmiddle/81f99cb2jw1e7obp06un5j20hs1h9agv.jpg)
Friends of mine took 6 months getting the Visa, they got it the day before the flight, but it took crazy long.
