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On August 13 2013 04:53 renaissanceMAN wrote:
Can't they just do something to make Thors non-gankable? Gank no longer works against massive units? You can gank tanks, but thors will still sit there pounding anti-air stuff?
Blinding Cloud is the much bigger problem in Viper vs Mech than Abduct.
Abduct = 75 energy for 1 spell vs 1 unit.
Blinding Cloud = 100 energy for a spell that can completely shut down up to 4-5 tanks/thors at once. It forces Tank lines to be spread out in such an inefficient way that you can't provide cover support to the weaker flanks.
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On August 13 2013 04:53 renaissanceMAN wrote:
Can't they just do something to make Thors non-gankable? Gank no longer works against massive units? You can gank tanks, but thors will still sit there pounding anti-air stuff?
With the upgrades attack air and land being connected now, I think Vikings might zone out vipers pretty easily. Once a terran gets to 2/2, I think the vipers would pop like zits unless the zerg has been upgrading air armor.
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On August 13 2013 04:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 04:53 renaissanceMAN wrote:
Can't they just do something to make Thors non-gankable? Gank no longer works against massive units? You can gank tanks, but thors will still sit there pounding anti-air stuff? With the upgrades attack air and land being connected now, I think Vikings might zone out vipers pretty easily. Once a terran gets to 2/2, I think the vipers would pop like zits unless the zerg has been upgrading air armor.
Viper zits, just almost peed my pants.
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Don't overseers already get a speed buff when you get OL speed....
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On August 13 2013 04:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 04:43 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 13 2013 04:42 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 04:40 Sissors wrote:On August 13 2013 04:37 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 04:30 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 13 2013 04:28 Plansix wrote:On August 13 2013 04:27 renaissanceMAN wrote:
Vipers will full energy? So they didn't learn anything from the HT Amulet upgrade?
The f... Oh its fine, they don't have storm. Lets talk about Hellbats and vikings upgrading as one. That's all fine and dandy, but Vipers will still be fucking amazing the instant they hatch. No other unit starts will full energy, I don't understand they're thinking. That’s valid, but they need to go the Dota 2 route of balance. “Lets make it totally fucked up and then pull it back from there. Why? Because people will use it if its fucking awesome and that’s what we want.” When you are measuring how awesome you want a unit to be, you have to start with the unit at full awesome and pull it back. Plus: I want to see the game where 5 of those fuckers hatch and get slapped down with feedbacks instantly. That shit would be dope at fuck. Please give marines stim as default upgrade which doesn't take away health. Just of course for balance purposes. Can my zealots start with charge that works like zergling speed with a cool down? If so, I endorse your stim plan and part of my “Break everything because its awesome, platform.” Fuck it, add hero units, Jim Raynor with that massive sniper rifle from the campaign that kills everything in a straight line across the map! Whoa whoa whoa, lets not get out of control here. No hero units in SC2. Though if I could get colossi to shoot in a straight line, that would be pretty awesome.
Actually, they should really add hero/unique units into SC2. I say, let's have it in LotV. It will add to gameplay fun and also viewing pleasure.
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On August 13 2013 04:54 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 04:41 Holdenintherye wrote:
What I don't understand is why they try to make mech a thing. Isn't bio/tank play good enough? Why do they HAVE to make a certain playstyle a part of the meta? Because it makes no sense to continue to make bio units tvp once the protoss composition is specifically designed to hard counter it. It's like continuing to spam mutas against mass phoenix. The fact that you can still win with it if you try really hard is a testament to how good bio is.
What?? And what exactly Terran is supposed to build lategame vs Protoss? Tanks? Thors? Battlecruisers?...
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The reading comprehension in this thread...
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We don't think Terran is struggling, but do think mech in general has been weak throughout HotS.
3. Vipers start with full energy
Wat?
And this change has the potential to really fuck with ZvP in a very bad way. Fast Hive, Roach/Hydra/Viper timing when Protoss are still depending on Colossi and don't have enough/any HT out. That could end up being way, way too strong and just force Protoss into going for a WoL style pre-Hive timing or die.
Best case scenario for this change? Nothing much really changes? I don't see the logic behind this one.
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On August 13 2013 04:53 renaissanceMAN wrote:
Can't they just do something to make Thors non-gankable? Gank no longer works against massive units? You can gank tanks, but thors will still sit there pounding anti-air stuff?
Nah,then you can't abduct colossi, and the unit can't do shit against P deathballs.
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On August 13 2013 04:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 04:50 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 13 2013 04:48 pmp10 wrote:On August 13 2013 04:47 Qikz wrote:
So they're buff to mech is something that'll benefit bio moreso than mech. again.
God damnit. T_T To be fair - they put the game in such a state that there is no other way. Pardon my language but, BULL SHIT. The reason Mech is viable in TvT and not viable in TvZ and TvP is dumbass poorly designed hard counter units like the Immortal and Viper. Neither of those units need to be as good as they currently are vs Mech, each race has plenty of tools for dealing with Mech based playstyles without them, yet both of them make it so that the Mech player needs to severely outplay his opponent in order to win while maintaining the same immobile highly expensive army that if it dies once means an instant GG. Nerf the Hard Counters, watch Mech suddenly become viable. You don't need to buff anything when nerfs to specific things accomplishes that same job much better. Nerfs suck. They make the game worse, punish people for using units well and only limit the meta game. It is better to buff units to deal with the problems, rather than nerf ones people are already using.
At this point you're looking at two units both of which serve extremely niche roles vs the standard meta vs Terran and yet are both 3-4 times more powerful vs Mech than any other playstyle in any other match up.
Nerfs in this case are warranted. If that means we get to buff them so they are more versatile and better vs a wider variety of playstyles then let's do it (although I'm not sure that's needed in the case of the Immortal.)
But what we're looking at is a playstyle that's widely considered weak in 2/3 Terran match ups while at the same time there exists units specifically put into this game to counter that playstyle so hard that hardly anyone uses it in the first place. It makes absolutely no sense to me why those units need to be that strong vs a style that already has so many weaknesses.
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Lets try to think rationally about the viper buff for a second instead of instantly going up in arms against it. Vipers nearly always have full energy going into battle because of consume. This actually doesn't affect the balance in terms of in a battle. What this actually change about the vipers is that now zerg will actually have an incentive to go vipers more. They do not have to build extra evos and consume them. This means it is less of an investment for vipers. Also, zerg don't have to wait for them to be useful. That means that zerg can invest in vipers without having to worry about timing pushes that might hit when vipers are completely useless. Also, you can't really compare vipers to other spell casters. HT and infestors have damage dealing spells where as vipers do not. However, I do see the point about it affecting mech. Having instant blinding cloud and to a lesser extent abduct could hurt mech a lot.
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Austria24422 Posts
Viper starting with full energy is TERRIBLE for PvZ balance. Basically you want to keep zerg busy the entire game, stop them from building up the bank to build more than one hive deathball while building your own perfect army to hold their eventual hive push. That army would be immortal/archon/templar/other stuff to kill ultra/viper/queen. The thing is, building that army takes super long because it's super gas heavy and you have to transition into it from the standard colossus/stargate midgame which already is expensive as hell. Zerg has a killer timing during that transition period when protoss is slowly trading zealots and stalkers for mass immortals. You want to have as many immortals as there are ultras and even then it's super tricky with blinding cloud. One bad fight and the game ends right there. That timing suddenly becomes a LOT faster if vipers start with full energy.
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I'm all for #1
#2 and #3 is a no-no
my initial thoughts of course
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On August 13 2013 04:57 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 04:54 Nebuchad wrote:On August 13 2013 04:41 Holdenintherye wrote:
What I don't understand is why they try to make mech a thing. Isn't bio/tank play good enough? Why do they HAVE to make a certain playstyle a part of the meta? Because it makes no sense to continue to make bio units tvp once the protoss composition is specifically designed to hard counter it. It's like continuing to spam mutas against mass phoenix. The fact that you can still win with it if you try really hard is a testament to how good bio is. What?? And what exactly Terran is supposed to build lategame vs Protoss? Tanks? Thors? Battlecruisers?...
What kind of answer is that? He asked why mech has to be a thing. I'm offering him the reason why I think mech needs to be a thing. I never said it was a thing right now.
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your Country52798 Posts
On August 13 2013 04:26 Plansix wrote:
Blizzard's plans: Buff everything.
I endorse this plan.
I approve of these changes for the same reason.
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Buffing mech by merging attack upgrade MEANS that Blizzard expect factory units to be transition on our way to skyterran which is probably the strongest unit compositon in the game. Anyway this is not what we were asking for and increasing viper mana to full is the most crazy shit ive heard in a long time. I dont even ... It would kill mech completely beacouse now sometime you got lucky and push before they leech mana and do some damage, now it would be insta gg the very second they pop out from eggs.
Viper is really bad in current form against bio and usefull for abuducts against protoss nothing else. It was designed to demolished siege tanks but it happens that siege tanks got replaced by widow mines who would have thought.... ?
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On August 13 2013 04:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Viper starting with full energy is TERRIBLE for PvZ balance. Basically you want to keep zerg busy the entire game, stop them from building up the bank to build more than one hive deathball while building your own perfect army to hold their eventual hive push. That army would be immortal/archon/templar/other stuff to kill ultra/viper/queen. The thing is, building that army takes super long because it's super gas heavy and you have to transition into it from the standard colossus/stargate midgame which already is expensive as hell. Zerg has a killer timing during that transition period when protoss is slowly trading zealots and stalkers for mass immortals. You want to have as many immortals as there are ultras and even then it's super tricky with blinding cloud. One bad fight and the game ends right there. That timing suddenly becomes a LOT faster if vipers start with full energy.
You guys have HT though 
Maybe HT drop into main in order to feedback snipe vipers will become a thing? lol
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soon we will push one hotkey and everything will explode
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United States33638 Posts
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EPT
