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On July 28 2013 11:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
Also I do apologise for my seemingly unrelenting negativity, Protoss do have the occasional entertaining game for sure, they aren't beyond hope.
I think the most fun era of Protoss was early-mid 2011 when 2 base was the name of the game. MC was always rolling out new builds with ridiculous micro.
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Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On July 28 2013 11:11 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
Also I do apologise for my seemingly unrelenting negativity, Protoss do have the occasional entertaining game for sure, they aren't beyond hope. I think the most fun era of Protoss was early-mid 2011 when 2 base was the name of the game. MC was always rolling out new builds with ridiculous micro.
Nono, it was when HerO and JYP were warp prisming them Zergs to death, and when Parting was debuting that Templar everywhere style.
Protoss have a lot of skillful finesse units like Templars, Phoenixes, Stalkers (and indeed the problematic sentry), but things like Collosus and Voids really prevent seeing 'entertaining' play. I loved HerO vs Jaedong g1 especially at the recent IEM, a lot of skirmishes and excellent micro and multitasking on display.
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On July 28 2013 11:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:07 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:02 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 28 2013 10:54 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:51 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 28 2013 10:48 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:43 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 10:39 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:34 ::Rhapsody wrote:
[quote]
I don't know what you're saying. Explain. Sorry, punish a 1 fax fe with just two gates. It's not an option. I still don't know what you're talking about. What I said is: Nathanias said something about it being bullshit that Terran cannot punish Protoss with a 2 Rax, not the other way around. You might have misread. Sorry, typing on a Ipad. Its not like a protoss could punish a 1 rax FE with 2 gates anyways. The era of building a bunch of marines off of 300 minerals worth of production and walking them across the map to do damage to a protoss fast expand is over. The builds are slightly more complicated that than now. There was actually some subtlety in such moveouts, occasionally you would see seemingly random hitsquads of marines take really weird routes and hit the Protoss at specific timings, solely with the aim of say, sniping sentries. That mineral-only investment would then force the Protoss player to have to make a calculated decision, replace those lost sentries and sink that gas to be more defensively solid, or cut that defensive corner to push up the tech tree? The problem I had with that was the terran never had to spend any gas to get this stuff, except maybe on reactors. They would just march their marine hit squad across the map and the protoss would pray they had enough FF to hold out until the production kicked in. And the terran could do this off of no gas and the back of a bunch of mules. I like the new era where the marine is useful, but not the snowball unit of choice for the early game. I'm not talking about any kind of kill-move, but really specific timings that are designed to punish certain builds. The old WoL CreatorPrime PvT stuck rigidly to 4 sentries as the best balance between defensive solidity, and achieving the tech goals of the overall build schematic. You would see smart players adjusting to target that specific element of the build, which I quite enjoyed seeing. You could also deny such moveouts with good stalker positioning, and small scale stalker vs naked marine micro battles were some of my favourite aspects of the PvT of old. The problem I had with that was it was one way. The terran could 1 rax FE back in WoL and there was shit all a protoss could do about it without all inning or dumping a shit ton of gas. But the terran could just build 2 raxes, not take any gasses and march across the map and try to do some damage. Maybe he wouldn't or maybe the protoss would fuck up, their timing would be off and it was game over. I like this new era where the terran has to invest in some sort of gas, rather than just living off of mules until its time to get upgrades. But you see.. say I go 1rax reaper fe. Get 1-4 probe kills (usually), or not any. Then I'm forced to either go for another reaper, go for fact. or go for reactor, or go for reactor @50gas and stop mining gas. Then, if the protoss scouts that I'm making a reaper, a stargate follow up is incredibly dangerous for the terran, or if he scouts that I'm going reactor, he can play safely. Terran has to put a bit off pressure simply because of game design. It's slightly easier to get the terran offguard than cornering the protoss offguard simply because of aoe, and such. I know this comes all in all into skill level, but it's mostly the Protoss' army design that is so flawed. Costly units, they don't scale well, colossus is really strong, stalker is super strong early game, and sucks late game. Protoss units don't have any consistency. Why are you trying for probe kills with your reaper? You should be using it for scouting and maybe light harassment, rather than trying to get a lead that early. I don't know why you think you should be able to do tons of damage by building a single unit and moving it across map.
The probe kills are for a replacement of what Terran early game harass used to be, scouting #1 priority, the probe kills are an extra, it delays low apm Protoss players. What I'm saying is that it's the only thing to really do damage, are you saying I should just 1 rax FE?
Situation: You are terran, you go 1 rax fe, scout 2 gas. 3 pylons in base. What's coming? Blink? Sentry expo? 4 Gate? Stargate? DTs!? Now here is the scarier part, you scout 2 pylons.
That's why I go reaper.
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On July 28 2013 11:20 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:18 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:10 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:07 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:02 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 28 2013 10:54 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:51 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 28 2013 10:48 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:43 ::Rhapsody wrote:
[quote]
I still don't know what you're talking about.
What I said is: Nathanias said something about it being bullshit that Terran cannot punish Protoss with a 2 Rax, not the other way around. You might have misread. Sorry, typing on a Ipad. Its not like a protoss could punish a 1 rax FE with 2 gates anyways. The era of building a bunch of marines off of 300 minerals worth of production and walking them across the map to do damage to a protoss fast expand is over. The builds are slightly more complicated that than now. There was actually some subtlety in such moveouts, occasionally you would see seemingly random hitsquads of marines take really weird routes and hit the Protoss at specific timings, solely with the aim of say, sniping sentries. That mineral-only investment would then force the Protoss player to have to make a calculated decision, replace those lost sentries and sink that gas to be more defensively solid, or cut that defensive corner to push up the tech tree? The problem I had with that was the terran never had to spend any gas to get this stuff, except maybe on reactors. They would just march their marine hit squad across the map and the protoss would pray they had enough FF to hold out until the production kicked in. And the terran could do this off of no gas and the back of a bunch of mules. I like the new era where the marine is useful, but not the snowball unit of choice for the early game. I'm not talking about any kind of kill-move, but really specific timings that are designed to punish certain builds. The old WoL CreatorPrime PvT stuck rigidly to 4 sentries as the best balance between defensive solidity, and achieving the tech goals of the overall build schematic. You would see smart players adjusting to target that specific element of the build, which I quite enjoyed seeing. You could also deny such moveouts with good stalker positioning, and small scale stalker vs naked marine micro battles were some of my favourite aspects of the PvT of old. The problem I had with that was it was one way. The terran could 1 rax FE back in WoL and there was shit all a protoss could do about it without all inning or dumping a shit ton of gas. But the terran could just build 2 raxes, not take any gasses and march across the map and try to do some damage. Maybe he wouldn't or maybe the protoss would fuck up, their timing would be off and it was game over. I like this new era where the terran has to invest in some sort of gas, rather than just living off of mules until its time to get upgrades. But you see.. say I go 1rax reaper fe. Get 1-4 probe kills (usually), or not any. Then I'm forced to either go for another reaper, go for fact. or go for reactor, or go for reactor @50gas and stop mining gas. Then, if the protoss scouts that I'm making a reaper, a stargate follow up is incredibly dangerous for the terran, or if he scouts that I'm going reactor, he can play safely. Terran has to put a bit off pressure simply because of game design. It's slightly easier to get the terran offguard than cornering the protoss offguard simply because of aoe, and such. I know this comes all in all into skill level, but it's mostly the Protoss' army design that is so flawed. Costly units, they don't scale well, colossus is really strong, stalker is super strong early game, and sucks late game. Protoss units don't have any consistency. Why are you trying for probe kills with your reaper? You should be using it for scouting and maybe light harassment, rather than trying to get a lead that early. I don't know why you think you should be able to do tons of damage by building a single unit and moving it across map. The probe kills are for a replacement of what Terran early game harass used to be, scouting #1 priority, the probe kills are an extra, it delays low apm Protoss players. What I'm saying is that it's the only thing to really do damage, are you saying I should just 1 rax FE? Situation: You are terran, you go 1 rax fe, scout 2 gas. 3 pylons in base. What's coming? Blink? Sentry expo? 4 Gate? Stargate? DTs!? Now here is the scarier part, you scout 2 pylons. That's why I go reaper. All Protoss one base all-ins can be defended by lifting your expansion and defending from one base. You don't need to scout gas, nor Pylons, you only need to know whether or not there is an expansion by 6:00.
ALL Protoss all ins? Are you saying I should never scout? only check if there's an expansion?
Ok. Tell me what I should do if I see no expo at 6:00. What to expect.
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On July 28 2013 11:20 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:18 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:10 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:07 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:02 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 28 2013 10:54 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:51 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 28 2013 10:48 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:43 ::Rhapsody wrote:
[quote]
I still don't know what you're talking about.
What I said is: Nathanias said something about it being bullshit that Terran cannot punish Protoss with a 2 Rax, not the other way around. You might have misread. Sorry, typing on a Ipad. Its not like a protoss could punish a 1 rax FE with 2 gates anyways. The era of building a bunch of marines off of 300 minerals worth of production and walking them across the map to do damage to a protoss fast expand is over. The builds are slightly more complicated that than now. There was actually some subtlety in such moveouts, occasionally you would see seemingly random hitsquads of marines take really weird routes and hit the Protoss at specific timings, solely with the aim of say, sniping sentries. That mineral-only investment would then force the Protoss player to have to make a calculated decision, replace those lost sentries and sink that gas to be more defensively solid, or cut that defensive corner to push up the tech tree? The problem I had with that was the terran never had to spend any gas to get this stuff, except maybe on reactors. They would just march their marine hit squad across the map and the protoss would pray they had enough FF to hold out until the production kicked in. And the terran could do this off of no gas and the back of a bunch of mules. I like the new era where the marine is useful, but not the snowball unit of choice for the early game. I'm not talking about any kind of kill-move, but really specific timings that are designed to punish certain builds. The old WoL CreatorPrime PvT stuck rigidly to 4 sentries as the best balance between defensive solidity, and achieving the tech goals of the overall build schematic. You would see smart players adjusting to target that specific element of the build, which I quite enjoyed seeing. You could also deny such moveouts with good stalker positioning, and small scale stalker vs naked marine micro battles were some of my favourite aspects of the PvT of old. The problem I had with that was it was one way. The terran could 1 rax FE back in WoL and there was shit all a protoss could do about it without all inning or dumping a shit ton of gas. But the terran could just build 2 raxes, not take any gasses and march across the map and try to do some damage. Maybe he wouldn't or maybe the protoss would fuck up, their timing would be off and it was game over. I like this new era where the terran has to invest in some sort of gas, rather than just living off of mules until its time to get upgrades. But you see.. say I go 1rax reaper fe. Get 1-4 probe kills (usually), or not any. Then I'm forced to either go for another reaper, go for fact. or go for reactor, or go for reactor @50gas and stop mining gas. Then, if the protoss scouts that I'm making a reaper, a stargate follow up is incredibly dangerous for the terran, or if he scouts that I'm going reactor, he can play safely. Terran has to put a bit off pressure simply because of game design. It's slightly easier to get the terran offguard than cornering the protoss offguard simply because of aoe, and such. I know this comes all in all into skill level, but it's mostly the Protoss' army design that is so flawed. Costly units, they don't scale well, colossus is really strong, stalker is super strong early game, and sucks late game. Protoss units don't have any consistency. Why are you trying for probe kills with your reaper? You should be using it for scouting and maybe light harassment, rather than trying to get a lead that early. I don't know why you think you should be able to do tons of damage by building a single unit and moving it across map. The probe kills are for a replacement of what Terran early game harass used to be, scouting #1 priority, the probe kills are an extra, it delays low apm Protoss players. What I'm saying is that it's the only thing to really do damage, are you saying I should just 1 rax FE? Situation: You are terran, you go 1 rax fe, scout 2 gas. 3 pylons in base. What's coming? Blink? Sentry expo? 4 Gate? Stargate? DTs!? Now here is the scarier part, you scout 2 pylons. That's why I go reaper. All Protoss one base all-ins can be defended by lifting your expansion and defending from one base. You don't need to scout gas, nor Pylons, you only need to know whether or not there is an expansion by 6:00. EDIT: Also, Terran can open 111 into expand and still be equal on economy with a 20 Nexus Protoss because of MULEs. You don't need to do damage.
Bullshit.
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On July 28 2013 11:18 ::Rhapsody wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:10 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:07 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:02 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 28 2013 10:54 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:51 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 28 2013 10:48 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:43 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 10:39 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Sorry, punish a 1 fax fe with just two gates. It's not an option. I still don't know what you're talking about. What I said is: Nathanias said something about it being bullshit that Terran cannot punish Protoss with a 2 Rax, not the other way around. You might have misread. Sorry, typing on a Ipad. Its not like a protoss could punish a 1 rax FE with 2 gates anyways. The era of building a bunch of marines off of 300 minerals worth of production and walking them across the map to do damage to a protoss fast expand is over. The builds are slightly more complicated that than now. There was actually some subtlety in such moveouts, occasionally you would see seemingly random hitsquads of marines take really weird routes and hit the Protoss at specific timings, solely with the aim of say, sniping sentries. That mineral-only investment would then force the Protoss player to have to make a calculated decision, replace those lost sentries and sink that gas to be more defensively solid, or cut that defensive corner to push up the tech tree? The problem I had with that was the terran never had to spend any gas to get this stuff, except maybe on reactors. They would just march their marine hit squad across the map and the protoss would pray they had enough FF to hold out until the production kicked in. And the terran could do this off of no gas and the back of a bunch of mules. I like the new era where the marine is useful, but not the snowball unit of choice for the early game. I'm not talking about any kind of kill-move, but really specific timings that are designed to punish certain builds. The old WoL CreatorPrime PvT stuck rigidly to 4 sentries as the best balance between defensive solidity, and achieving the tech goals of the overall build schematic. You would see smart players adjusting to target that specific element of the build, which I quite enjoyed seeing. You could also deny such moveouts with good stalker positioning, and small scale stalker vs naked marine micro battles were some of my favourite aspects of the PvT of old. The problem I had with that was it was one way. The terran could 1 rax FE back in WoL and there was shit all a protoss could do about it without all inning or dumping a shit ton of gas. But the terran could just build 2 raxes, not take any gasses and march across the map and try to do some damage. Maybe he wouldn't or maybe the protoss would fuck up, their timing would be off and it was game over. I like this new era where the terran has to invest in some sort of gas, rather than just living off of mules until its time to get upgrades. But you see.. say I go 1rax reaper fe. Get 1-4 probe kills (usually), or not any. Then I'm forced to either go for another reaper, go for fact. or go for reactor, or go for reactor @50gas and stop mining gas. Then, if the protoss scouts that I'm making a reaper, a stargate follow up is incredibly dangerous for the terran, or if he scouts that I'm going reactor, he can play safely. Terran has to put a bit off pressure simply because of game design. It's slightly easier to get the terran offguard than cornering the protoss offguard simply because of aoe, and such. I know this comes all in all into skill level, but it's mostly the Protoss' army design that is so flawed. Costly units, they don't scale well, colossus is really strong, stalker is super strong early game, and sucks late game. Protoss units don't have any consistency. Why are you trying for probe kills with your reaper? You should be using it for scouting and maybe light harassment, rather than trying to get a lead that early. I don't know why you think you should be able to do tons of damage by building a single unit and moving it across map. The probe kills are for a replacement of what Terran early game harass used to be, scouting #1 priority, the probe kills are an extra, it delays low apm Protoss players. What I'm saying is that it's the only thing to really do damage, are you saying I should just 1 rax FE? Situation: You are terran, you go 1 rax fe, scout 2 gas. 3 pylons in base. What's coming? Blink? Sentry expo? 4 Gate? Stargate? DTs!? Now here is the scarier part, you scout 2 pylons. That's why I go reaper.
I don't understand what you are trying to say any more. Reaper openings are fine and get good information, just like stalker openings are good for protoss, but cost more.
Its clear that you have issues with TvP. Rather than complaining, go watch Demuslim beat Huk and Crank from earlier this week and try to figure out how he did it, then try to adjust your play.
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On July 28 2013 11:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:18 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:10 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:07 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:02 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 28 2013 10:54 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:51 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 28 2013 10:48 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:43 ::Rhapsody wrote:
[quote]
I still don't know what you're talking about.
What I said is: Nathanias said something about it being bullshit that Terran cannot punish Protoss with a 2 Rax, not the other way around. You might have misread. Sorry, typing on a Ipad. Its not like a protoss could punish a 1 rax FE with 2 gates anyways. The era of building a bunch of marines off of 300 minerals worth of production and walking them across the map to do damage to a protoss fast expand is over. The builds are slightly more complicated that than now. There was actually some subtlety in such moveouts, occasionally you would see seemingly random hitsquads of marines take really weird routes and hit the Protoss at specific timings, solely with the aim of say, sniping sentries. That mineral-only investment would then force the Protoss player to have to make a calculated decision, replace those lost sentries and sink that gas to be more defensively solid, or cut that defensive corner to push up the tech tree? The problem I had with that was the terran never had to spend any gas to get this stuff, except maybe on reactors. They would just march their marine hit squad across the map and the protoss would pray they had enough FF to hold out until the production kicked in. And the terran could do this off of no gas and the back of a bunch of mules. I like the new era where the marine is useful, but not the snowball unit of choice for the early game. I'm not talking about any kind of kill-move, but really specific timings that are designed to punish certain builds. The old WoL CreatorPrime PvT stuck rigidly to 4 sentries as the best balance between defensive solidity, and achieving the tech goals of the overall build schematic. You would see smart players adjusting to target that specific element of the build, which I quite enjoyed seeing. You could also deny such moveouts with good stalker positioning, and small scale stalker vs naked marine micro battles were some of my favourite aspects of the PvT of old. The problem I had with that was it was one way. The terran could 1 rax FE back in WoL and there was shit all a protoss could do about it without all inning or dumping a shit ton of gas. But the terran could just build 2 raxes, not take any gasses and march across the map and try to do some damage. Maybe he wouldn't or maybe the protoss would fuck up, their timing would be off and it was game over. I like this new era where the terran has to invest in some sort of gas, rather than just living off of mules until its time to get upgrades. But you see.. say I go 1rax reaper fe. Get 1-4 probe kills (usually), or not any. Then I'm forced to either go for another reaper, go for fact. or go for reactor, or go for reactor @50gas and stop mining gas. Then, if the protoss scouts that I'm making a reaper, a stargate follow up is incredibly dangerous for the terran, or if he scouts that I'm going reactor, he can play safely. Terran has to put a bit off pressure simply because of game design. It's slightly easier to get the terran offguard than cornering the protoss offguard simply because of aoe, and such. I know this comes all in all into skill level, but it's mostly the Protoss' army design that is so flawed. Costly units, they don't scale well, colossus is really strong, stalker is super strong early game, and sucks late game. Protoss units don't have any consistency. Why are you trying for probe kills with your reaper? You should be using it for scouting and maybe light harassment, rather than trying to get a lead that early. I don't know why you think you should be able to do tons of damage by building a single unit and moving it across map. The probe kills are for a replacement of what Terran early game harass used to be, scouting #1 priority, the probe kills are an extra, it delays low apm Protoss players. What I'm saying is that it's the only thing to really do damage, are you saying I should just 1 rax FE? Situation: You are terran, you go 1 rax fe, scout 2 gas. 3 pylons in base. What's coming? Blink? Sentry expo? 4 Gate? Stargate? DTs!? Now here is the scarier part, you scout 2 pylons. That's why I go reaper. I don't understand what you are trying to say any more. Reaper openings are fine and get good information, just like stalker openings are good for protoss, but cost more. Its clear that you have issues with TvP. Rather than complaining, go watch Demuslim beat Huk and Crank from earlier this week and try to figure out how he did it, then try to adjust your play.
We were talking about Balance and David Kim, can you stop talking about my TvP? What's your problem? I'm saying that P plays too safe cause of MSC and they're able to expand easily compared to WoL, and you're only replying saying "You have issues with TvP, stop complaining." You have issues with conversing.
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On July 28 2013 11:30 ::Rhapsody wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:28 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:18 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:10 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:07 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:02 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 28 2013 10:54 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:51 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 28 2013 10:48 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Sorry, typing on a Ipad. Its not like a protoss could punish a 1 rax FE with 2 gates anyways. The era of building a bunch of marines off of 300 minerals worth of production and walking them across the map to do damage to a protoss fast expand is over. The builds are slightly more complicated that than now. There was actually some subtlety in such moveouts, occasionally you would see seemingly random hitsquads of marines take really weird routes and hit the Protoss at specific timings, solely with the aim of say, sniping sentries. That mineral-only investment would then force the Protoss player to have to make a calculated decision, replace those lost sentries and sink that gas to be more defensively solid, or cut that defensive corner to push up the tech tree? The problem I had with that was the terran never had to spend any gas to get this stuff, except maybe on reactors. They would just march their marine hit squad across the map and the protoss would pray they had enough FF to hold out until the production kicked in. And the terran could do this off of no gas and the back of a bunch of mules. I like the new era where the marine is useful, but not the snowball unit of choice for the early game. I'm not talking about any kind of kill-move, but really specific timings that are designed to punish certain builds. The old WoL CreatorPrime PvT stuck rigidly to 4 sentries as the best balance between defensive solidity, and achieving the tech goals of the overall build schematic. You would see smart players adjusting to target that specific element of the build, which I quite enjoyed seeing. You could also deny such moveouts with good stalker positioning, and small scale stalker vs naked marine micro battles were some of my favourite aspects of the PvT of old. The problem I had with that was it was one way. The terran could 1 rax FE back in WoL and there was shit all a protoss could do about it without all inning or dumping a shit ton of gas. But the terran could just build 2 raxes, not take any gasses and march across the map and try to do some damage. Maybe he wouldn't or maybe the protoss would fuck up, their timing would be off and it was game over. I like this new era where the terran has to invest in some sort of gas, rather than just living off of mules until its time to get upgrades. But you see.. say I go 1rax reaper fe. Get 1-4 probe kills (usually), or not any. Then I'm forced to either go for another reaper, go for fact. or go for reactor, or go for reactor @50gas and stop mining gas. Then, if the protoss scouts that I'm making a reaper, a stargate follow up is incredibly dangerous for the terran, or if he scouts that I'm going reactor, he can play safely. Terran has to put a bit off pressure simply because of game design. It's slightly easier to get the terran offguard than cornering the protoss offguard simply because of aoe, and such. I know this comes all in all into skill level, but it's mostly the Protoss' army design that is so flawed. Costly units, they don't scale well, colossus is really strong, stalker is super strong early game, and sucks late game. Protoss units don't have any consistency. Why are you trying for probe kills with your reaper? You should be using it for scouting and maybe light harassment, rather than trying to get a lead that early. I don't know why you think you should be able to do tons of damage by building a single unit and moving it across map. The probe kills are for a replacement of what Terran early game harass used to be, scouting #1 priority, the probe kills are an extra, it delays low apm Protoss players. What I'm saying is that it's the only thing to really do damage, are you saying I should just 1 rax FE? Situation: You are terran, you go 1 rax fe, scout 2 gas. 3 pylons in base. What's coming? Blink? Sentry expo? 4 Gate? Stargate? DTs!? Now here is the scarier part, you scout 2 pylons. That's why I go reaper. I don't understand what you are trying to say any more. Reaper openings are fine and get good information, just like stalker openings are good for protoss, but cost more. Its clear that you have issues with TvP. Rather than complaining, go watch Demuslim beat Huk and Crank from earlier this week and try to figure out how he did it, then try to adjust your play. We were talking about Balance and David Kim, can you stop talking about my TvP? What's your problem? I'm saying that P plays too safe cause of MSC and they're able to expand easily compared to WoL, and you're only replying saying "You have issues with TvP, stop complaining." You have issues with conversing.
And I pointed out earlier that high level players have recently in games made that opening seem less safe and taken to protoss players. You didn't read that part of the discussion and continued down the line of the MCS makes protoss to safe. And you keep referencing the era of WoL, when terran could 1 rax expand off of no gas and almost no scouting information against protoss. That was not a great era and protoss has really limited builds and just hid in their base in fear not having enough force fields to stop marines walking across the map and killing them.
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On July 28 2013 11:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:30 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:28 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:18 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:10 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:07 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:02 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 28 2013 10:54 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:51 Wombat_NI wrote:
[quote]
There was actually some subtlety in such moveouts, occasionally you would see seemingly random hitsquads of marines take really weird routes and hit the Protoss at specific timings, solely with the aim of say, sniping sentries. That mineral-only investment would then force the Protoss player to have to make a calculated decision, replace those lost sentries and sink that gas to be more defensively solid, or cut that defensive corner to push up the tech tree?
The problem I had with that was the terran never had to spend any gas to get this stuff, except maybe on reactors. They would just march their marine hit squad across the map and the protoss would pray they had enough FF to hold out until the production kicked in. And the terran could do this off of no gas and the back of a bunch of mules. I like the new era where the marine is useful, but not the snowball unit of choice for the early game. I'm not talking about any kind of kill-move, but really specific timings that are designed to punish certain builds. The old WoL CreatorPrime PvT stuck rigidly to 4 sentries as the best balance between defensive solidity, and achieving the tech goals of the overall build schematic. You would see smart players adjusting to target that specific element of the build, which I quite enjoyed seeing. You could also deny such moveouts with good stalker positioning, and small scale stalker vs naked marine micro battles were some of my favourite aspects of the PvT of old. The problem I had with that was it was one way. The terran could 1 rax FE back in WoL and there was shit all a protoss could do about it without all inning or dumping a shit ton of gas. But the terran could just build 2 raxes, not take any gasses and march across the map and try to do some damage. Maybe he wouldn't or maybe the protoss would fuck up, their timing would be off and it was game over. I like this new era where the terran has to invest in some sort of gas, rather than just living off of mules until its time to get upgrades. But you see.. say I go 1rax reaper fe. Get 1-4 probe kills (usually), or not any. Then I'm forced to either go for another reaper, go for fact. or go for reactor, or go for reactor @50gas and stop mining gas. Then, if the protoss scouts that I'm making a reaper, a stargate follow up is incredibly dangerous for the terran, or if he scouts that I'm going reactor, he can play safely. Terran has to put a bit off pressure simply because of game design. It's slightly easier to get the terran offguard than cornering the protoss offguard simply because of aoe, and such. I know this comes all in all into skill level, but it's mostly the Protoss' army design that is so flawed. Costly units, they don't scale well, colossus is really strong, stalker is super strong early game, and sucks late game. Protoss units don't have any consistency. Why are you trying for probe kills with your reaper? You should be using it for scouting and maybe light harassment, rather than trying to get a lead that early. I don't know why you think you should be able to do tons of damage by building a single unit and moving it across map. The probe kills are for a replacement of what Terran early game harass used to be, scouting #1 priority, the probe kills are an extra, it delays low apm Protoss players. What I'm saying is that it's the only thing to really do damage, are you saying I should just 1 rax FE? Situation: You are terran, you go 1 rax fe, scout 2 gas. 3 pylons in base. What's coming? Blink? Sentry expo? 4 Gate? Stargate? DTs!? Now here is the scarier part, you scout 2 pylons. That's why I go reaper. I don't understand what you are trying to say any more. Reaper openings are fine and get good information, just like stalker openings are good for protoss, but cost more. Its clear that you have issues with TvP. Rather than complaining, go watch Demuslim beat Huk and Crank from earlier this week and try to figure out how he did it, then try to adjust your play. We were talking about Balance and David Kim, can you stop talking about my TvP? What's your problem? I'm saying that P plays too safe cause of MSC and they're able to expand easily compared to WoL, and you're only replying saying "You have issues with TvP, stop complaining." You have issues with conversing. And I pointed out earlier that high level players have recently in games made that opening seem less safe and taken to protoss players. You didn't read that part of the discussion and continued down the line of the MCS makes protoss to safe. And you keep referencing the era of WoL, when terran could 1 rax expand off of no gas and almost no scouting information against protoss. That was not a great era and protoss has really limited builds and just hid in their base in fear not having enough force fields to stop marines walking across the map and killing them.
Everyone can agree that WoL is horrid compared to Hots, that doesn't add anything to your conversation. I don't think Protoss being safe was what David Kim intended for it to be. I'm sure DK wanted Protoss to be stronger vs All ins, not early game pressure. It's like the queen buff, yes, terrans adapted, but it did change many things about TvZ in WoL.
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On July 28 2013 11:43 ::Rhapsody wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:40 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:30 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:28 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:18 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:10 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:07 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:02 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 28 2013 10:54 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
The problem I had with that was the terran never had to spend any gas to get this stuff, except maybe on reactors. They would just march their marine hit squad across the map and the protoss would pray they had enough FF to hold out until the production kicked in. And the terran could do this off of no gas and the back of a bunch of mules. I like the new era where the marine is useful, but not the snowball unit of choice for the early game. I'm not talking about any kind of kill-move, but really specific timings that are designed to punish certain builds. The old WoL CreatorPrime PvT stuck rigidly to 4 sentries as the best balance between defensive solidity, and achieving the tech goals of the overall build schematic. You would see smart players adjusting to target that specific element of the build, which I quite enjoyed seeing. You could also deny such moveouts with good stalker positioning, and small scale stalker vs naked marine micro battles were some of my favourite aspects of the PvT of old. The problem I had with that was it was one way. The terran could 1 rax FE back in WoL and there was shit all a protoss could do about it without all inning or dumping a shit ton of gas. But the terran could just build 2 raxes, not take any gasses and march across the map and try to do some damage. Maybe he wouldn't or maybe the protoss would fuck up, their timing would be off and it was game over. I like this new era where the terran has to invest in some sort of gas, rather than just living off of mules until its time to get upgrades. But you see.. say I go 1rax reaper fe. Get 1-4 probe kills (usually), or not any. Then I'm forced to either go for another reaper, go for fact. or go for reactor, or go for reactor @50gas and stop mining gas. Then, if the protoss scouts that I'm making a reaper, a stargate follow up is incredibly dangerous for the terran, or if he scouts that I'm going reactor, he can play safely. Terran has to put a bit off pressure simply because of game design. It's slightly easier to get the terran offguard than cornering the protoss offguard simply because of aoe, and such. I know this comes all in all into skill level, but it's mostly the Protoss' army design that is so flawed. Costly units, they don't scale well, colossus is really strong, stalker is super strong early game, and sucks late game. Protoss units don't have any consistency. Why are you trying for probe kills with your reaper? You should be using it for scouting and maybe light harassment, rather than trying to get a lead that early. I don't know why you think you should be able to do tons of damage by building a single unit and moving it across map. The probe kills are for a replacement of what Terran early game harass used to be, scouting #1 priority, the probe kills are an extra, it delays low apm Protoss players. What I'm saying is that it's the only thing to really do damage, are you saying I should just 1 rax FE? Situation: You are terran, you go 1 rax fe, scout 2 gas. 3 pylons in base. What's coming? Blink? Sentry expo? 4 Gate? Stargate? DTs!? Now here is the scarier part, you scout 2 pylons. That's why I go reaper. I don't understand what you are trying to say any more. Reaper openings are fine and get good information, just like stalker openings are good for protoss, but cost more. Its clear that you have issues with TvP. Rather than complaining, go watch Demuslim beat Huk and Crank from earlier this week and try to figure out how he did it, then try to adjust your play. We were talking about Balance and David Kim, can you stop talking about my TvP? What's your problem? I'm saying that P plays too safe cause of MSC and they're able to expand easily compared to WoL, and you're only replying saying "You have issues with TvP, stop complaining." You have issues with conversing. And I pointed out earlier that high level players have recently in games made that opening seem less safe and taken to protoss players. You didn't read that part of the discussion and continued down the line of the MCS makes protoss to safe. And you keep referencing the era of WoL, when terran could 1 rax expand off of no gas and almost no scouting information against protoss. That was not a great era and protoss has really limited builds and just hid in their base in fear not having enough force fields to stop marines walking across the map and killing them. Everyone can agree that WoL is horrid compared to Hots, that doesn't add anything to your conversation. I don't think Protoss being safe was what David Kim intended for it to be. I'm sure DK wanted Protoss to be stronger vs All ins, not early game pressure. It's like the queen buff, yes, terrans adapted, but it did change many things about TvZ in WoL.
Once again, there are players doing stuff with hellions in the early game that is pretty interesting and has potential. I don't think protoss it to safe at this point and I think DK put the in the nexus cannon to help protoss deal with the early pressure they would die to in WoL. I am sure he intended protoss to be safer, because I remember him saying it. I think the time warp might be a bit much and may need to cost a bit more, or be smaller, but the cannon is fine.
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On July 28 2013 11:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:43 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:40 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:30 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:28 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:18 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:10 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:07 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:02 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:59 Wombat_NI wrote:
[quote]
I'm not talking about any kind of kill-move, but really specific timings that are designed to punish certain builds. The old WoL CreatorPrime PvT stuck rigidly to 4 sentries as the best balance between defensive solidity, and achieving the tech goals of the overall build schematic. You would see smart players adjusting to target that specific element of the build, which I quite enjoyed seeing.
You could also deny such moveouts with good stalker positioning, and small scale stalker vs naked marine micro battles were some of my favourite aspects of the PvT of old. The problem I had with that was it was one way. The terran could 1 rax FE back in WoL and there was shit all a protoss could do about it without all inning or dumping a shit ton of gas. But the terran could just build 2 raxes, not take any gasses and march across the map and try to do some damage. Maybe he wouldn't or maybe the protoss would fuck up, their timing would be off and it was game over. I like this new era where the terran has to invest in some sort of gas, rather than just living off of mules until its time to get upgrades. But you see.. say I go 1rax reaper fe. Get 1-4 probe kills (usually), or not any. Then I'm forced to either go for another reaper, go for fact. or go for reactor, or go for reactor @50gas and stop mining gas. Then, if the protoss scouts that I'm making a reaper, a stargate follow up is incredibly dangerous for the terran, or if he scouts that I'm going reactor, he can play safely. Terran has to put a bit off pressure simply because of game design. It's slightly easier to get the terran offguard than cornering the protoss offguard simply because of aoe, and such. I know this comes all in all into skill level, but it's mostly the Protoss' army design that is so flawed. Costly units, they don't scale well, colossus is really strong, stalker is super strong early game, and sucks late game. Protoss units don't have any consistency. Why are you trying for probe kills with your reaper? You should be using it for scouting and maybe light harassment, rather than trying to get a lead that early. I don't know why you think you should be able to do tons of damage by building a single unit and moving it across map. The probe kills are for a replacement of what Terran early game harass used to be, scouting #1 priority, the probe kills are an extra, it delays low apm Protoss players. What I'm saying is that it's the only thing to really do damage, are you saying I should just 1 rax FE? Situation: You are terran, you go 1 rax fe, scout 2 gas. 3 pylons in base. What's coming? Blink? Sentry expo? 4 Gate? Stargate? DTs!? Now here is the scarier part, you scout 2 pylons. That's why I go reaper. I don't understand what you are trying to say any more. Reaper openings are fine and get good information, just like stalker openings are good for protoss, but cost more. Its clear that you have issues with TvP. Rather than complaining, go watch Demuslim beat Huk and Crank from earlier this week and try to figure out how he did it, then try to adjust your play. We were talking about Balance and David Kim, can you stop talking about my TvP? What's your problem? I'm saying that P plays too safe cause of MSC and they're able to expand easily compared to WoL, and you're only replying saying "You have issues with TvP, stop complaining." You have issues with conversing. And I pointed out earlier that high level players have recently in games made that opening seem less safe and taken to protoss players. You didn't read that part of the discussion and continued down the line of the MCS makes protoss to safe. And you keep referencing the era of WoL, when terran could 1 rax expand off of no gas and almost no scouting information against protoss. That was not a great era and protoss has really limited builds and just hid in their base in fear not having enough force fields to stop marines walking across the map and killing them. Everyone can agree that WoL is horrid compared to Hots, that doesn't add anything to your conversation. I don't think Protoss being safe was what David Kim intended for it to be. I'm sure DK wanted Protoss to be stronger vs All ins, not early game pressure. It's like the queen buff, yes, terrans adapted, but it did change many things about TvZ in WoL. Once again, there are players doing stuff with hellions in the early game that is pretty interesting and has potential. I don't think protoss it to safe at this point and I think DK put the in the nexus cannon to help protoss deal with the early pressure they would die to in WoL. I am sure he intended protoss to be safer, because I remember him saying it. I think the time warp might be a bit much and may need to cost a bit more, or be smaller, but the cannon is fine.
I don't want to argue with you anymore. I oppose, time warp is good, although it reduces micro potential, it strengthens Protoss during mid-game engagements, crucial. The Nexus cannon is overkill. I'm not gonna reply to your comments anymore, feels like I'm talking to a wall that plays Protoss.
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On July 28 2013 11:53 ::Rhapsody wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:48 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:43 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:40 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:30 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:28 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:18 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:10 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:07 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:02 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
The problem I had with that was it was one way. The terran could 1 rax FE back in WoL and there was shit all a protoss could do about it without all inning or dumping a shit ton of gas. But the terran could just build 2 raxes, not take any gasses and march across the map and try to do some damage. Maybe he wouldn't or maybe the protoss would fuck up, their timing would be off and it was game over.
I like this new era where the terran has to invest in some sort of gas, rather than just living off of mules until its time to get upgrades. But you see.. say I go 1rax reaper fe. Get 1-4 probe kills (usually), or not any. Then I'm forced to either go for another reaper, go for fact. or go for reactor, or go for reactor @50gas and stop mining gas. Then, if the protoss scouts that I'm making a reaper, a stargate follow up is incredibly dangerous for the terran, or if he scouts that I'm going reactor, he can play safely. Terran has to put a bit off pressure simply because of game design. It's slightly easier to get the terran offguard than cornering the protoss offguard simply because of aoe, and such. I know this comes all in all into skill level, but it's mostly the Protoss' army design that is so flawed. Costly units, they don't scale well, colossus is really strong, stalker is super strong early game, and sucks late game. Protoss units don't have any consistency. Why are you trying for probe kills with your reaper? You should be using it for scouting and maybe light harassment, rather than trying to get a lead that early. I don't know why you think you should be able to do tons of damage by building a single unit and moving it across map. The probe kills are for a replacement of what Terran early game harass used to be, scouting #1 priority, the probe kills are an extra, it delays low apm Protoss players. What I'm saying is that it's the only thing to really do damage, are you saying I should just 1 rax FE? Situation: You are terran, you go 1 rax fe, scout 2 gas. 3 pylons in base. What's coming? Blink? Sentry expo? 4 Gate? Stargate? DTs!? Now here is the scarier part, you scout 2 pylons. That's why I go reaper. I don't understand what you are trying to say any more. Reaper openings are fine and get good information, just like stalker openings are good for protoss, but cost more. Its clear that you have issues with TvP. Rather than complaining, go watch Demuslim beat Huk and Crank from earlier this week and try to figure out how he did it, then try to adjust your play. We were talking about Balance and David Kim, can you stop talking about my TvP? What's your problem? I'm saying that P plays too safe cause of MSC and they're able to expand easily compared to WoL, and you're only replying saying "You have issues with TvP, stop complaining." You have issues with conversing. And I pointed out earlier that high level players have recently in games made that opening seem less safe and taken to protoss players. You didn't read that part of the discussion and continued down the line of the MCS makes protoss to safe. And you keep referencing the era of WoL, when terran could 1 rax expand off of no gas and almost no scouting information against protoss. That was not a great era and protoss has really limited builds and just hid in their base in fear not having enough force fields to stop marines walking across the map and killing them. Everyone can agree that WoL is horrid compared to Hots, that doesn't add anything to your conversation. I don't think Protoss being safe was what David Kim intended for it to be. I'm sure DK wanted Protoss to be stronger vs All ins, not early game pressure. It's like the queen buff, yes, terrans adapted, but it did change many things about TvZ in WoL. Once again, there are players doing stuff with hellions in the early game that is pretty interesting and has potential. I don't think protoss it to safe at this point and I think DK put the in the nexus cannon to help protoss deal with the early pressure they would die to in WoL. I am sure he intended protoss to be safer, because I remember him saying it. I think the time warp might be a bit much and may need to cost a bit more, or be smaller, but the cannon is fine. I don't want to argue with you anymore. I oppose, time warp is good, although it reduces micro potential, it strengthens Protoss during mid-game engagements, crucial. The Nexus cannon is overkill. I'm not gonna reply to your comments anymore, feels like I'm talking to a wall that plays Protoss.
Yeah, well its clear we were going to disagree. You want the nexus cannon removed so you can be super aggressive and protoss has to dump gas into sentries to feel safe. I remember the days when I didn't have it and don't want to go back to those because they sucked.. I mean, if they removed the bunker from the game, I would be all for it, then we could all be aggressive together. But I don't think terrans would go for that.
And you should watch the games with Demuslim, me makes from this week. He makes hellions look pretty scary, even with the nexus cannon.
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Northern Ireland27463 Posts
From my perspective it's not that the Nexus Cannon is too powerful, but that it's not really a choice to have it available for the most part. Most builds get a Mothership core and it often has the requisite energy, there's less of a decision-making process going on.
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On July 28 2013 11:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:53 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:48 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:43 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:40 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:30 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:28 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:18 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:10 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:07 ::Rhapsody wrote:
[quote]
But you see.. say I go 1rax reaper fe. Get 1-4 probe kills (usually), or not any. Then I'm forced to either go for another reaper, go for fact. or go for reactor, or go for reactor @50gas and stop mining gas. Then, if the protoss scouts that I'm making a reaper, a stargate follow up is incredibly dangerous for the terran, or if he scouts that I'm going reactor, he can play safely. Terran has to put a bit off pressure simply because of game design.
It's slightly easier to get the terran offguard than cornering the protoss offguard simply because of aoe, and such.
I know this comes all in all into skill level, but it's mostly the Protoss' army design that is so flawed.
Costly units, they don't scale well, colossus is really strong, stalker is super strong early game, and sucks late game.
Protoss units don't have any consistency. Why are you trying for probe kills with your reaper? You should be using it for scouting and maybe light harassment, rather than trying to get a lead that early. I don't know why you think you should be able to do tons of damage by building a single unit and moving it across map. The probe kills are for a replacement of what Terran early game harass used to be, scouting #1 priority, the probe kills are an extra, it delays low apm Protoss players. What I'm saying is that it's the only thing to really do damage, are you saying I should just 1 rax FE? Situation: You are terran, you go 1 rax fe, scout 2 gas. 3 pylons in base. What's coming? Blink? Sentry expo? 4 Gate? Stargate? DTs!? Now here is the scarier part, you scout 2 pylons. That's why I go reaper. I don't understand what you are trying to say any more. Reaper openings are fine and get good information, just like stalker openings are good for protoss, but cost more. Its clear that you have issues with TvP. Rather than complaining, go watch Demuslim beat Huk and Crank from earlier this week and try to figure out how he did it, then try to adjust your play. We were talking about Balance and David Kim, can you stop talking about my TvP? What's your problem? I'm saying that P plays too safe cause of MSC and they're able to expand easily compared to WoL, and you're only replying saying "You have issues with TvP, stop complaining." You have issues with conversing. And I pointed out earlier that high level players have recently in games made that opening seem less safe and taken to protoss players. You didn't read that part of the discussion and continued down the line of the MCS makes protoss to safe. And you keep referencing the era of WoL, when terran could 1 rax expand off of no gas and almost no scouting information against protoss. That was not a great era and protoss has really limited builds and just hid in their base in fear not having enough force fields to stop marines walking across the map and killing them. Everyone can agree that WoL is horrid compared to Hots, that doesn't add anything to your conversation. I don't think Protoss being safe was what David Kim intended for it to be. I'm sure DK wanted Protoss to be stronger vs All ins, not early game pressure. It's like the queen buff, yes, terrans adapted, but it did change many things about TvZ in WoL. Once again, there are players doing stuff with hellions in the early game that is pretty interesting and has potential. I don't think protoss it to safe at this point and I think DK put the in the nexus cannon to help protoss deal with the early pressure they would die to in WoL. I am sure he intended protoss to be safer, because I remember him saying it. I think the time warp might be a bit much and may need to cost a bit more, or be smaller, but the cannon is fine. I don't want to argue with you anymore. I oppose, time warp is good, although it reduces micro potential, it strengthens Protoss during mid-game engagements, crucial. The Nexus cannon is overkill. I'm not gonna reply to your comments anymore, feels like I'm talking to a wall that plays Protoss. Yeah, well its clear we were going to disagree. You want the nexus cannon removed so you can be super aggressive and protoss has to dump gas into sentries to feel safe. I remember the days when I didn't have it and don't want to go back to those because they sucked.. I mean, if they removed the bunker from the game, I would be all for it, then we could all be aggressive together. But I don't think terrans would go for that. And you should watch the games with Demuslim, me makes from this week. He makes hellions look pretty scary, even with the nexus cannon.
Nexus cannons were mostly for improving pvp, letting it be actually a matchup which you can expand in it.
You seriosuly compare it to a bunker? lol... Please dont force me to list defensive comparisons.
there is a serious problem for terrans in aggression capability vs toss nowdays, and its a fact. in WOL a toss playing greedy was a BO risk, now - its a super standard build...
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On July 28 2013 12:02 Wombat_NI wrote:
From my perspective it's not that the Nexus Cannon is too powerful, but that it's not really a choice to have it available for the most part. Most builds get a Mothership core and it often has the requisite energy, there's less of a decision-making process going on.
What I meant ^. I'm in your debt again.
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On July 28 2013 12:02 Wombat_NI wrote:
From my perspective it's not that the Nexus Cannon is too powerful, but that it's not really a choice to have it available for the most part. Most builds get a Mothership core and it often has the requisite energy, there's less of a decision-making process going on.
Eh, the previous decision was "Yo, I need a lot of sentries and I can't be aggressive with those, how many should I build?". It was pretty dull and only focused around how greedy the protss wanted to be in their macro build. It is one step above "how many cannons" do I build in levels of interesting. I am ok with it getting toned down, but once again, those hellion builds Demuslim did seemed to have potential to not give a shit about the cannon(or to do damage well before it killed them)
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Northern Ireland27463 Posts
You chose to build sentries or cannons, you generally have a MSC (for the most part). I find the MSC (somewhat) analogous to the Queen, you get the Queen for creep spready goodness and injects, you can't really play Zerg without those, especially the latter. When the Queen gives you additional defensive utility against a lot of other things, without you having to engage your brain or make reads, just not generally a fan of that kind of thing.
I had high hopes for the MSC as an interesting macro/auxilliary unit, with a tradeoff of some kind. I mean it initially could give your defensive units extra energy, which is handy for templar/sentries. If you did this however, you didn't have your cannon. Those kind of cost/benefit decisions
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On July 28 2013 11:21 ::Rhapsody wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:20 Sated wrote:On July 28 2013 11:18 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:10 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:07 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:02 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 28 2013 10:54 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:51 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 28 2013 10:48 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Sorry, typing on a Ipad. Its not like a protoss could punish a 1 rax FE with 2 gates anyways. The era of building a bunch of marines off of 300 minerals worth of production and walking them across the map to do damage to a protoss fast expand is over. The builds are slightly more complicated that than now. There was actually some subtlety in such moveouts, occasionally you would see seemingly random hitsquads of marines take really weird routes and hit the Protoss at specific timings, solely with the aim of say, sniping sentries. That mineral-only investment would then force the Protoss player to have to make a calculated decision, replace those lost sentries and sink that gas to be more defensively solid, or cut that defensive corner to push up the tech tree? The problem I had with that was the terran never had to spend any gas to get this stuff, except maybe on reactors. They would just march their marine hit squad across the map and the protoss would pray they had enough FF to hold out until the production kicked in. And the terran could do this off of no gas and the back of a bunch of mules. I like the new era where the marine is useful, but not the snowball unit of choice for the early game. I'm not talking about any kind of kill-move, but really specific timings that are designed to punish certain builds. The old WoL CreatorPrime PvT stuck rigidly to 4 sentries as the best balance between defensive solidity, and achieving the tech goals of the overall build schematic. You would see smart players adjusting to target that specific element of the build, which I quite enjoyed seeing. You could also deny such moveouts with good stalker positioning, and small scale stalker vs naked marine micro battles were some of my favourite aspects of the PvT of old. The problem I had with that was it was one way. The terran could 1 rax FE back in WoL and there was shit all a protoss could do about it without all inning or dumping a shit ton of gas. But the terran could just build 2 raxes, not take any gasses and march across the map and try to do some damage. Maybe he wouldn't or maybe the protoss would fuck up, their timing would be off and it was game over. I like this new era where the terran has to invest in some sort of gas, rather than just living off of mules until its time to get upgrades. But you see.. say I go 1rax reaper fe. Get 1-4 probe kills (usually), or not any. Then I'm forced to either go for another reaper, go for fact. or go for reactor, or go for reactor @50gas and stop mining gas. Then, if the protoss scouts that I'm making a reaper, a stargate follow up is incredibly dangerous for the terran, or if he scouts that I'm going reactor, he can play safely. Terran has to put a bit off pressure simply because of game design. It's slightly easier to get the terran offguard than cornering the protoss offguard simply because of aoe, and such. I know this comes all in all into skill level, but it's mostly the Protoss' army design that is so flawed. Costly units, they don't scale well, colossus is really strong, stalker is super strong early game, and sucks late game. Protoss units don't have any consistency. Why are you trying for probe kills with your reaper? You should be using it for scouting and maybe light harassment, rather than trying to get a lead that early. I don't know why you think you should be able to do tons of damage by building a single unit and moving it across map. The probe kills are for a replacement of what Terran early game harass used to be, scouting #1 priority, the probe kills are an extra, it delays low apm Protoss players. What I'm saying is that it's the only thing to really do damage, are you saying I should just 1 rax FE? Situation: You are terran, you go 1 rax fe, scout 2 gas. 3 pylons in base. What's coming? Blink? Sentry expo? 4 Gate? Stargate? DTs!? Now here is the scarier part, you scout 2 pylons. That's why I go reaper. All Protoss one base all-ins can be defended by lifting your expansion and defending from one base. You don't need to scout gas, nor Pylons, you only need to know whether or not there is an expansion by 6:00. ALL Protoss all ins? Are you saying I should never scout? only check if there's an expansion? Ok. Tell me what I should do if I see no expo at 6:00. What to expect.
This is why "scan timings" are a thing amongst terran players. Scan the protoss around 7, maybe 7:30. And no, not just if he plays 1 base. But always unless you already have an idea of what he's doing. You will get enough info to act accordingly. Also scout the map with one or two units for proxy pylons or stargates if you see he's one basing (and you're expanding).
Just knowing that he's up to something should put you in a more defensive position already. Maybe get an engineering bay, at least save a scan or two, keep enough marines to kill an oracle in your mineral line, keep your ramp walled and scout ahead of your ramp, so if something is coming, you can move those marines.
And note I am assuming you're doing something like a 1 rax fe in this case. If you're doing a 1 base play yourself, keep executing it and try to trade at least evenly with your attack. Trying to defend is good too in this case, but not if you lose your potential for doing damage. Also, understand you are not meant to defend literally every attack. Taking damage, sometimes a lot of damage or just losing, is normal.
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On July 28 2013 12:17 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 11:21 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:20 Sated wrote:On July 28 2013 11:18 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:10 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 11:07 ::Rhapsody wrote:On July 28 2013 11:02 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 28 2013 10:54 Plansix wrote:On July 28 2013 10:51 Wombat_NI wrote:
[quote]
There was actually some subtlety in such moveouts, occasionally you would see seemingly random hitsquads of marines take really weird routes and hit the Protoss at specific timings, solely with the aim of say, sniping sentries. That mineral-only investment would then force the Protoss player to have to make a calculated decision, replace those lost sentries and sink that gas to be more defensively solid, or cut that defensive corner to push up the tech tree?
The problem I had with that was the terran never had to spend any gas to get this stuff, except maybe on reactors. They would just march their marine hit squad across the map and the protoss would pray they had enough FF to hold out until the production kicked in. And the terran could do this off of no gas and the back of a bunch of mules. I like the new era where the marine is useful, but not the snowball unit of choice for the early game. I'm not talking about any kind of kill-move, but really specific timings that are designed to punish certain builds. The old WoL CreatorPrime PvT stuck rigidly to 4 sentries as the best balance between defensive solidity, and achieving the tech goals of the overall build schematic. You would see smart players adjusting to target that specific element of the build, which I quite enjoyed seeing. You could also deny such moveouts with good stalker positioning, and small scale stalker vs naked marine micro battles were some of my favourite aspects of the PvT of old. The problem I had with that was it was one way. The terran could 1 rax FE back in WoL and there was shit all a protoss could do about it without all inning or dumping a shit ton of gas. But the terran could just build 2 raxes, not take any gasses and march across the map and try to do some damage. Maybe he wouldn't or maybe the protoss would fuck up, their timing would be off and it was game over. I like this new era where the terran has to invest in some sort of gas, rather than just living off of mules until its time to get upgrades. But you see.. say I go 1rax reaper fe. Get 1-4 probe kills (usually), or not any. Then I'm forced to either go for another reaper, go for fact. or go for reactor, or go for reactor @50gas and stop mining gas. Then, if the protoss scouts that I'm making a reaper, a stargate follow up is incredibly dangerous for the terran, or if he scouts that I'm going reactor, he can play safely. Terran has to put a bit off pressure simply because of game design. It's slightly easier to get the terran offguard than cornering the protoss offguard simply because of aoe, and such. I know this comes all in all into skill level, but it's mostly the Protoss' army design that is so flawed. Costly units, they don't scale well, colossus is really strong, stalker is super strong early game, and sucks late game. Protoss units don't have any consistency. Why are you trying for probe kills with your reaper? You should be using it for scouting and maybe light harassment, rather than trying to get a lead that early. I don't know why you think you should be able to do tons of damage by building a single unit and moving it across map. The probe kills are for a replacement of what Terran early game harass used to be, scouting #1 priority, the probe kills are an extra, it delays low apm Protoss players. What I'm saying is that it's the only thing to really do damage, are you saying I should just 1 rax FE? Situation: You are terran, you go 1 rax fe, scout 2 gas. 3 pylons in base. What's coming? Blink? Sentry expo? 4 Gate? Stargate? DTs!? Now here is the scarier part, you scout 2 pylons. That's why I go reaper. All Protoss one base all-ins can be defended by lifting your expansion and defending from one base. You don't need to scout gas, nor Pylons, you only need to know whether or not there is an expansion by 6:00. ALL Protoss all ins? Are you saying I should never scout? only check if there's an expansion? Ok. Tell me what I should do if I see no expo at 6:00. What to expect. This is why "scan timings" are a thing amongst terran players. Scan the protoss around 7, maybe 7:30. And no, not just if he plays 1 base. But always unless you already have an idea of what he's doing. You will get enough info to act accordingly. Also scout the map with one or two units for proxy pylons or stargates if you see he's one basing (and you're expanding). Just knowing that he's up to something should put you in a more defensive position already. Maybe get an engineering bay, at least save a scan or two, keep enough marines to kill an oracle in your mineral line, keep your ramp walled and scout ahead of your ramp, so if something is coming, you can move those marines. And note I am assuming you're doing something like a 1 rax fe in this case. If you're doing a 1 base play yourself, keep executing it and try to trade at least evenly with your attack. Trying to defend is good too in this case, but not if you lose your potential for doing damage. Also, understand you are not meant to defend literally every attack. Taking damage, sometimes a lot of damage or just losing, is normal.
Exactly. He said I can survive any all in even if I don't scout it as long as I know it's coming. Which is bullshit. All ins range from 4G, 3Grobo Bunker bust all in, Stargate Vr + Gateway units all in, Oracle + gateway units all in. And he's telling me, I can hold EVERY single type of all in ,as long as I know that an all in is coming. Thanks for agreeing with me.
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EPT
