EPTInterview of David Kim about Balance in IEM - Page 19
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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larse
1611 Posts
On July 28 2013 07:27 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I think a lot of matchups are actually less stale than BW. PvT is much more entertaining now, and PvP got a second wind strategy-wise from WoL to HotS. TvP has the same unit composition since 2010. It's all the same since 2010. It's all MMMVG since 2010. How is this "much more entertaining"? Everything, every unit composition in every matchup has changed since 2010, except TvP. It is the most boring and stagnant matchup. | ||
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Beakyboo
United States485 Posts
It might be "balanced" but it's just hard for protoss to play all around builds that will carry a great player through a tournament. Protoss feels like it's got to commit a lot more to a particular tech and playstyle than zerg and terran. It feels like every match up involving protoss is super precarious, where the entire game comes down to singular decisions/engagements, rather than a back and forth dynamic. Unit composition is also much more a determining factor in match ups with protoss. Maybe these aren't balance issues, but it's just gripes I have as an observer. The race frustrates me. Blizzard is too focused on win rates rather than improving the dynamic of the game. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27015 Posts
On July 28 2013 08:07 larse wrote: TvP has the same unit composition since 2010. It's all the same since 2010. It's all MMMVG since 2010. How is this "much more entertaining"? Everything, every unit composition in every matchup has changed since 2010, except TvP. It is the most boring and stagnant matchup. Compositional variety does not necessarily make matchups better. I've always liked PvT at the top, top level because it feels very fair, very execution-based and intense. PvZ had more variety, but a hell of a lot more gimmicky/silly in WoL. A lot better now though. I'm not sure, I don't like the MsC for what it does to PvT, makes things a bit too safe. Equally proxy oracle play is kind of silly to me in how potent it is. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On July 28 2013 08:07 larse wrote: TvP has the same unit composition since 2010. It's all the same since 2010. It's all MMMVG since 2010. How is this "much more entertaining"? Everything, every unit composition in every matchup has changed since 2010, except TvP. It is the most boring and stagnant matchup. As opposed to zealot goon arbiter vs. tank goon goliath. The only thing remotely interesting in BW PvT was a recall into the Terran's base. At least both armies can now maneuver around each other for better positioning. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27015 Posts
On July 28 2013 08:27 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: As opposed to zealot goon arbiter vs. tank goon goliath. The only thing remotely interesting in BW PvT was a recall into the Terran's base. At least both armies can now maneuver around each other for better positioning. Zealot bombs are pretty cool, storm was more potent in certain ways. Dragoons target firing spidermines can be pretty sick to watch. That and the general different way BW functions makes it interesting to me. That said I haven't consumed a lot of it like some of you vets. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27015 Posts
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On July 28 2013 08:27 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: As opposed to zealot goon arbiter vs. tank goon goliath. The only thing remotely interesting in BW PvT was a recall into the Terran's base. At least both armies can now maneuver around each other for better positioning. I agree, pvt got stale But every matchup got pretty stale the last years but the first 5years of broodwar was alot more fun than sc2 to watch | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On July 28 2013 08:16 Beakyboo wrote: I feel like some of their justifications for balance don't really work. Maybe protoss achieves a pretty balanced win rate on ladder, and maybe even in high level tournaments, but I don't think that's really the whole picture. You win 50% of the time flipping coins, but you can't be consistent doing it, and it feels to me like every match up with protoss is a lot closer to flipping coins than the ones without. It might be "balanced" but it's just hard for protoss to play all around builds that will carry a great player through a tournament. Protoss feels like it's got to commit a lot more to a particular tech and playstyle than zerg and terran. It feels like every match up involving protoss is super precarious, where the entire game comes down to singular decisions/engagements, rather than a back and forth dynamic. Unit composition is also much more a determining factor in match ups with protoss. Maybe these aren't balance issues, but it's just gripes I have as an observer. The race frustrates me. Blizzard is too focused on win rates rather than improving the dynamic of the game. I agree 100% :D | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On July 28 2013 08:37 Foxxan wrote: I agree, pvt got stale But every matchup got pretty stale the last years but the first 5years of broodwar was alot more fun than sc2 to watch Well in those days, there was little interaction and very few people knew what they were doing. Day[9] always talks about how for a year or so, people didn't even know expanding while your main is still mining is a viable strategy. With SC2, you have new people but you also have a lot of BW vets who have good gamesense and just need to adapt to the new units and mechanics. So the derp-phase ended much more quickly than it did in BW. | ||
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Gullis
Sweden740 Posts
On July 28 2013 08:49 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Well in those days, there was little interaction and very few people knew what they were doing. Day[9] always talks about how for a year or so, people didn't even know expanding while your main is still mining is a viable strategy. With SC2, you have new people but you also have a lot of BW vets who have good gamesense and just need to adapt to the new units and mechanics. So the derp-phase ended much more quickly than it did in BW. BW was harder mechanically which also contributed. It made more strategies deemed as viable because good players could overcome small build order deficits by just having better mechanics (to a bigger degree than in hots). | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On July 28 2013 08:49 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Well in those days, there was little interaction and very few people knew what they were doing. Day[9] always talks about how for a year or so, people didn't even know expanding while your main is still mining is a viable strategy. With SC2, you have new people but you also have a lot of BW vets who have good gamesense and just need to adapt to the new units and mechanics. So the derp-phase ended much more quickly than it did in BW. Maybe the first year, sure but after that year, people knew expanding was good Thing was, people didnt know how to do a fast expand and defend it effective I dont know why i am gonna write this, hope it doesnt sound weird or anything So the first years i dont remember 100% Protoss went 1gate pressure vs zerg for example, forge expand took very many years before they started with it PvZ: So 2gate zealot rush (to force zerg make lings, not drones) into Citadel>upgrade zealot speed (no charge, just very fast passive movement speed) > Forge > hightemplar building (which included dts also) It varied alot, sometimes protoss did more gateways, sometimes he went nexus after 2gate and forge to hold it with speed zealots and cannons And he teched to storm pretty fast everytime (he had to), and note protoss didnt use corsairs for a long time, protoss used archon to support zealots and to be able to hold muta switch (which was annoying as HELL, note pro protoss players died alot to mutas because of muta micro and no space for archon to attack) And while he got his expand up, zerg pressure with hydralisk, zerglings and later on added lurkers And now with expand up, protoss can move out with his force and gain map control, to put pressure and secure additional bases .... I just felt to write this, this was so much much cooler Broodwar was so dynamic, especially the first years | ||
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shiftY803
200 Posts
Those two abilities are insanely strong in certain ways. Therefore, the entire race had to be balanced around them. I hate to say it, but Blizzard has their work cut out for them. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On July 28 2013 08:27 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: As opposed to zealot goon arbiter vs. tank goon goliath. The only thing remotely interesting in BW PvT was a recall into the Terran's base. At least both armies can now maneuver around each other for better positioning. Did you list goons for Terran's side because they're so dumb you might as well be fighting against them too? | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On July 28 2013 10:20 forsooth wrote: Did you list goons for Terran's side because they're so dumb you might as well be fighting against them too? Good eye, I was waiting for someone on that  | ||
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::Rhapsody
Canada124 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 28 2013 10:25 ::Rhapsody wrote: I think P is way too safe on TvP, I think Nathanias said something about how it was bullshit that 2rax can't punish 1gate fe. Because a Protoss a 1 fax fe before with just two gates. | ||
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::Rhapsody
Canada124 Posts
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