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On July 16 2013 10:33 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:28 Kishin2 wrote:
1. Encourage maturity, thoughtfulness, manners.
People who bash other games do so normally out of lack of at least one of the above. I'm nearly certain that people who aren't mature/intelligent/nice to other people/communities online aren't in real life. It's not an issue within e-sports specifically, but a societal issue with the demographic e-sports attracts the most.
There's not much. It's the internet. You cannot change the internet. That applies everything from forums, stream chat, banter in games etc. It's always going to be there. In games I try to set a good example and if I get through to a few people when I play then I say I did my job. Otherwise you have to accept it for what it is. Love calling out the little derps though because it's good fun. I think it goes way beyond age as well. Some people are pretty immature.
It's e-sports. I can't change it, but we can. Isn't the objective of this thread to reject the current state of the community and focus on things to make it better?
From what I can tell, most of the bashing between sc2 and LoL originates from the sc2 community. I know most of the more influential personalities have started publicly advocating for less animosity and more acceptance between the two communities. This is good.
To tackle the issue more precisely, we have to ask, "Why do sc2 players bash LoL?" My answer to that would be the people bashing LoL lack either maturity, thoughtfulness, or manners (not entirely age).
On July 16 2013 10:40 Ettick wrote:
Is there a community between pro sports fans?
Yep.
Are the fans of particular sports friendly towards fans of others?
Nope.
Why should eSports be any different from pro sports in this aspect?
Basketball fans do not typically tell Football fans, "go die, football trash game."
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On July 16 2013 10:40 Ettick wrote:
Is there a community between pro sports fans?
Yep.
Are the fans of particular sports friendly towards fans of others?
Nope.
Why should eSports be any different from pro sports in this aspect?
I don't get the fixation on the whole. I say let them stand on their own. If there's no interest there then you aren't going to win them over.
On July 16 2013 10:49 Kishin2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:33 StarStruck wrote:On July 16 2013 10:28 Kishin2 wrote:
1. Encourage maturity, thoughtfulness, manners.
People who bash other games do so normally out of lack of at least one of the above. I'm nearly certain that people who aren't mature/intelligent/nice to other people/communities online aren't in real life. It's not an issue within e-sports specifically, but a societal issue with the demographic e-sports attracts the most.
There's not much. It's the internet. You cannot change the internet. That applies everything from forums, stream chat, banter in games etc. It's always going to be there. In games I try to set a good example and if I get through to a few people when I play then I say I did my job. Otherwise you have to accept it for what it is. Love calling out the little derps though because it's good fun. I think it goes way beyond age as well. Some people are pretty immature. It's e-sports. I can't change it, but we can. Isn't the objective of this thread to reject the current state of the community and focus on things to make it better? From what I can tell, most of the bashing between sc2 and LoL originates from the sc2 community. I know most of the more influential personalities have started publicly advocating for less animosity and more acceptance between the two communities. This is good. To tackle the issue more precisely, we have to ask, "Why do sc2 players bash LoL?" My answer to that would be the people bashing LoL lack either maturity, thoughtfulness, or manners (not entirely age). Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:40 Ettick wrote:
Is there a community between pro sports fans?
Yep.
Are the fans of particular sports friendly towards fans of others?
Nope.
Why should eSports be any different from pro sports in this aspect? Basketball fans do not typically tell Football fans, "go die, football trash game."
The point is you cannot change the community. You have to accept it for what it is and what it is not and I'm not just talking about the bashing with regards to the different games but I'm talking about the overall experiences I've had playing/seeing in each community. Some people think so high and mighty of their scene when in reality they're no better than the other. They're all pretty bad when it comes to salt. So once again, we're not just talking about friction between communities but we're talking about the inner shit that goes on within each community, which is downright awful.
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On July 16 2013 09:21 negativedge wrote:not the way to go. some of the FGC stuff is nice for viewers in the know and all, but there's a reason all fighting games combined are still smaller than Starcraft, despite all the "SC2 is dying" garbage (fighting games actually did die, I know, I was there). The FGC is extremely insular, super hostile to anyone and everyone that isn't already there, is extremely vulgar in way that mixes the worst of nerd culture with a pseudo gang-banger mentality. they pride themselves on community, but outside of all the shouting at Evo once a year they behave more like a gang. it took almost a decade to get even Capcom to acknowledge the community, much less any sponsors. the biggest problem with esports is exclusiveness and hostility, racist/misogynist/homophobic/etc. language, entitlement, etc. the FGC is the worst of all of that, and that fact drowns out the positives
I lol'd.
Anyway, having come from the fighting game community, I don't think you can apply some ideas from there 'cause the games are so different. If anything, I think the REAL problem is how uncontrollable the internet is in general, you can't FORCE people on TL or Reddit to be X.
Just as realsports cant convince their fans not to cuss while they're watching a live game. The problem they dont' have is that there are so many people interested, they can afford to behave super formal and what not. SC2 isn't big enough to impose that kind of treatment on anyone.
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On July 16 2013 10:49 Kishin2 wrote:
Basketball fans do not typically tell Football fans, "go die, football trash game."
True, but as a basketball fan I have no obligation to like football in order to "support the global sports scene."
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On July 16 2013 08:25 Shinta) wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 02:16 DinoMight wrote:
I think some of the points you make are very good. Yesterday at EVO a lot of people were bashing on Super Smash Brothers as being "not a real fighting game" and not an e-SPORT, even though over 100k people were watching the event. Wait, are you serious? Are people really talking about that? Because not even a single game at EVO is an eSport, including SSF4 etc etc. Capcom has said it several times already that they do not support eSports and won't bring their game titles into the eSports scene.
Not true. Dreamhack has SF4. IPL e-sports helped promote Capcom's latest fighting game SFxT. MLG get's the shaft because someone convinced the higher ups at Capcom that MLG is a threat to the growth of grassroots tournament organizers of the fgc.
EVO is just an awesome gaming tournament. I wish that more game companies like Capcom would invest in the industry and bring their awesome games into the world of eSports though. Having those awesome fighting games included in our industry would be amazing.
Dreamhack has sf4. IPL would have gotten more capcom fighters if they stayed alive.
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Bisutopia19231 Posts
This article encapsulates everything I think in my head and I loved every word. I really wish people could practice what you preached in this thread. I think all the esports communities have evovled into something awesoem and I make sure I watch a game or to periodically to keep current and page respects. Thanks for writing this I feel reapply positive if people read the whole post we can find change for the better! <3
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One of the biggest things is to make people understand what game you play doesn't matter and everyone should try to support everyone.
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I don't know I don't think people should take there game so serious. AT the end of the day, Starcraft II is a game, League of legends is a game, Dota 2 is a game, Zelda is a game. We play them for fun! If you don't enjoy playing Starcraft II then don't play it, no need to make the statement that LoL is a better game. LoL might be the better game for the person in the example, but that could be that they have more fun playing it. So I don't really see the problem with the communties. I mean you will see a few loud mouths and stuff, but the majority of people who play are playing for fun. Like I will be honestly, I got bored of watching Starcraft 2 esports, because I stopped having fun with Starcraft II, and started to enjoy watching dota 2, because I am having more fun playing dota 2. But I am not going on forums and saying SC II sucks because of reason X. We don't need all the communties to watch and play each others games. The communties should be responsible for supporting there games and presenting the positive stuff. And who knows maybe people will get into it.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 16 2013 10:49 Kishin2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:40 Ettick wrote:
Is there a community between pro sports fans?
Yep.
Are the fans of particular sports friendly towards fans of others?
Nope.
Why should eSports be any different from pro sports in this aspect? Basketball fans do not typically tell Football fans, "go die, football trash game."
FOOTball vs 'American' football sometimes happens though
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Great write up Alex. I echo many of your sentiments.
I'm saddened that public figures of LoL/Dota2/CoD push and support other games, but once an SC2 personality publicly talks about enjoying something else, in comes the undulating waves of lost passion speculation. Obviously, this only applies to a small percentage of the community considering most fans are multi-game fans, but it still is quite discouraging seeing obnoxious forms of elitism from time to time.
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On July 16 2013 11:41 FrodaN wrote:
Great write up Alex. I echo many of your sentiments.
I'm saddened that public figures of LoL/Dota2/CoD push and support other games, but once an SC2 personality publicly talks about enjoying something else, in comes the undulating waves of lost passion speculation. Obviously, this only applies to a small percentage of the community considering most fans are multi-game fans, but it still is quite discouraging seeing obnoxious forms of elitism from time to time.
I'm sorry, I really really really tried to watch tanks, but you need to do something about matches ending in a draw 
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On July 16 2013 09:21 negativedge wrote:not the way to go. some of the FGC stuff is nice for viewers in the know and all, but there's a reason all fighting games combined are still smaller than Starcraft, despite all the "SC2 is dying" garbage (fighting games actually did die, I know, I was there). The FGC is extremely insular, super hostile to anyone and everyone that isn't already there, is extremely vulgar in way that mixes the worst of nerd culture with a pseudo gang-banger mentality. they pride themselves on community, but outside of all the shouting at Evo once a year they behave more like a gang. it took almost a decade to get even Capcom to acknowledge the community, much less any sponsors. the biggest problem with esports is exclusiveness and hostility, racist/misogynist/homophobic/etc. language, entitlement, etc. the FGC is the worst of all of that, and that fact drowns out the positives
You must be on drugs.
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Northern Ireland25159 Posts
I think the issue of 'E-sports' being taken as a homogenous entity is part of this friction. I genuinely despise watching League, I won't bash it but equally my enjoyment of Starcraft is to me completely independent of that. I only tend to get pissed off when League starts to interfere with my enjoyment of the Starcraft community. Ironically enough, this is generally due to people making off-topic discussions bashing League!
I also believe the reason that this coalescing of different gaming communities under the banner of E-sports is because high-level gaming still isn't seen by the general public as the skillful, demanding activity that it is. Until that occurs, and the scene gets that added impetus of acceptance as a legitimate activity in the eyes of many, I can understand the necessity to stand together as a more homogenised scene.
Hopefully in the future it won't be necessary, and we can all be fans of 'Starcraft' or 'Dota', and be free to follow our various personal favourite gaming scenes without being praised or criticised for our particular favourites. It won't entirely stop the pointless pissing contests (see American football vs football) about whose activity is better, but I do firmly believe that scenes that are big enough to be entirely independent of each other is a good endgoal.
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On July 16 2013 02:14 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Great Topic. Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 02:01 ROOTAxeltoss wrote:
"Theory one: Tension between the communities. The threads I have read, the comments made by certain individuals of certain communities... r/starcraft, TL, twitch chats... It blows my mind and is the most infuriating thing. People will just bash other games as a hobby. Each person has their own reasons. It’s a terrible mentality and it should go away. People like certain games, so what? How does it help anything to hate on something that you don’t like? It doesn’t. If you have a cupcake and your friend has a cookie, are you going to argue the cookie is too crumbly and laugh at them? No! You are going to enjoy your damn cupcake! How does this look to the outside world, too? Those outside of our bubbles? Are people going want to share in our tasty treat endeavours after seeing these toxic exchanges?"
the difficulty in improving in this area involves the mental maturity of participants. from a child's simple perspective if they like one thing then anything else must be "bad". from an adult's perspective: i love SC and SC2. WoW just is not "my thing". Does this mean "WoW sucks donkey balls". No it does not, but i ahve a hard time convincing an avid 14 year old RTS player of this perspective. Take a look at how "Force" stopped supporting Diablo3. His "farewell to Diablo" was an ADULT DISCUSSION. He didn't say "Diablo sucks donkey balls". For these communities to work in large numbers they'll include males aged 13 to 17 who have a hard time viewing their favourite games from an adult perspective. Males at this age are naturally combative and still forming their own personal identity. When I was a around that age... "WWF Wrestlemania 2000" was the greatest game ever made and any one who didn't agree was a total idiot. I was 14, and of course, i knew everything.
To be honest, even though tension between games and superiority complex for one's favorite game isn't necessary qualities you would want your kid to express, it's not necessarily bad for the community. Look at American football and football (soccer), or any number of more traditional sports. It's quite common for those of one to look down upon the other. Try convincing a major tennis fan, that watches his favorite player return a serve that was travelling at 180 mph, and could be anywhere in roughly a 30-foot axis, that it's harder to hit a 98 mph fastball. Try and tell your football coach that soccer is a physical game. We all have our favorites, we hold them close and we kick at everything else. I'm not advocating the behavior, nor am i defending it, but unless you give me some reasoning, i doubt there is much of a correlation between a positively, open-minded community and the growth rate and/or popularity of a sport.
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On July 16 2013 11:52 ForcesEqualZero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 11:41 FrodaN wrote:
Great write up Alex. I echo many of your sentiments.
I'm saddened that public figures of LoL/Dota2/CoD push and support other games, but once an SC2 personality publicly talks about enjoying something else, in comes the undulating waves of lost passion speculation. Obviously, this only applies to a small percentage of the community considering most fans are multi-game fans, but it still is quite discouraging seeing obnoxious forms of elitism from time to time. I'm sorry, I really really really tried to watch tanks, but you need to do something about matches ending in a draw
Haha working on it!  Thanks for at least giving it a try with an open mind. No one here denies that watching tanks can be pretty bland compared to playing through the game itself. It's improved drastically already and will continue to do so from our talks with WG.
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On July 16 2013 09:34 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 08:25 Shinta) wrote:On July 16 2013 02:16 DinoMight wrote:
I think some of the points you make are very good. Yesterday at EVO a lot of people were bashing on Super Smash Brothers as being "not a real fighting game" and not an e-SPORT, even though over 100k people were watching the event. Wait, are you serious? Are people really talking about that? Because not even a single game at EVO is an eSport, including SSF4 etc etc. Capcom has said it several times already that they do not support eSports and won't bring their game titles into the eSports scene. EVO is just an awesome gaming tournament. I wish that more game companies like Capcom would invest in the industry and bring their awesome games into the world of eSports though. Having those awesome fighting games included in our industry would be amazing. But honestly, one of the biggest things that we need to do to help grow eSports is to change our attitude. Like IdrA said, don't be so conceded, but also, just in general, we can't be such huge nerds. Being a nerd is awesome, and I always say that everyone is a nerd in their own way, but gaming nerds like to take it to another level a lot of the time and that really discourages people who aren't huge nerds to participate. Other people need to feel comfortable watching and playing games with the people who know a lot and follow/participate in the eSports scene. Right now, they look at us as intense gamers who are too weird to really collaborate with. In order to let eSports grow, we need to learn to accept other people, and that means opening ourselves up. With time, this will allow other people to learn to accept us, and after that they will be able to enjoy the same things we've come to enjoy. how is evo event not esports? isnt esports competitive gaming? or is this some kind of hipster mentality
eSports is an industry. A business. One that is supposed to be able to sustain itself.
EVO is something Capcom supports, but Capcom does not want to support the lifestyle of FGC players. It does not want to support the pro gamer lifestyle. They simply want to make a game that people can play for fun.
eSports is a business. Capcom doesn't support the eSports machine.
Someone with inside info can tell me if I'm wrong, but the inside info I had back when I worked with these kinds of things told me I'm not.
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On July 16 2013 10:28 Kishin2 wrote:
1. Encourage maturity, thoughtfulness, manners.
This is the entire reason for GLHF and GG.
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Thinking back I'm not sure if I like the title I used. I added a TL;DR to hopefully clean up the main idea.
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On July 16 2013 11:36 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:49 Kishin2 wrote:On July 16 2013 10:40 Ettick wrote:
Is there a community between pro sports fans?
Yep.
Are the fans of particular sports friendly towards fans of others?
Nope.
Why should eSports be any different from pro sports in this aspect? Basketball fans do not typically tell Football fans, "go die, football trash game." FOOTball vs 'American' football sometimes happens though
But then again, you don't see various martial art community bashing each other, or various motor sports (G1 vs dirtbike racing or something), or pingpong and tennis....
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Need to let kids be kids.
Plot your own course, they will come.
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EPT
