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On July 16 2013 03:58 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 03:49 ROOTAxeltoss wrote:On July 16 2013 03:39 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 03:35 ROOTAxeltoss wrote:On July 16 2013 03:14 Torte de Lini wrote:On July 16 2013 03:12 grs wrote:
Is there a reason people who like Ice Hockey have to like Football? I don't think so. Why is there an urge to unite communities for different games? I like Starcraft, I like Dota and I like LoL. I find fighting games utterly stupid on the other hand. That does not mean I should go around and bash people that like fighting games, but it does also not mean I have to like fighting games, just because I like other games. winner. There is no problem about communities. The real issue is some of the toxicity within the games and their communities. And the disproportion of interest from those at the top. In my opinion, the gesture is nice, but misplaced. I'm not certain how relevant this is. Perhaps it's more about once we get there we can bicker. Those examples you mentioned are already successful enough where it doesn't really matter that there might be animosity between them all. With how small esports is compared to those examples, I feel it's quite counter productive to show too much animosity towards other games. I'm not saying hold hands and play all the games, I'm saying be open to the idea of other games existing and just have a generally more positive outlook on things. What are the things we can do to encourage positivity, rather than negativity? Perhaps looking at it this way: NFL, NBA, MLB, Esports Rather than: NFL, NBA, MLB, LoL, SC2, Dota 2 I guess that is basically where we differ. I see no value in the abstract construct "esports". I see games I like to play, like to watch and which I am up to pay money for watching. The idea of esports as an ideal is a mystery to me. A part of this is just helping with exposure. Folks just getting into LoL (have you seen the numbers? a ridiculous amount) might be open to SC2 but just havn't heard of it or know about it or are simply too intimidated. Taking the steps to help educate these people could be huge for the growth of everyone. Folks getting into LoL have paid nothing. They have nothing to lose. If they hate it, big deal. 0 dollars spent. Starcraft 2 is completely different. It's different from other PC games, and its learning curve is extremely steep for those who play multi-player on the ladder. Add to that a $60 price-tag and suddenly, just getting into the game is an investment of more than just time. We see people come in and out of League of Legends like the revolving door that it is. I don't want that for SC2. It's not a bandwagon and it's definitely not for everyone. It's better that way.
I find this theory confusing. They would still need to pay to play SC2. If the game is good and the community is filled with fun people, people would want to join to get in on the fun. Most of my really good friends to play LoL will also play SC2 with me as well.
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So are we looking to resolve the differences in communities or introduce people into other games?
That's two very different objectives.
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On July 16 2013 04:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
So are we looking to resolve the differences in communities or introduce people into other games?
That's two very different objectives.
Well how about we settle for not hating on casters when they cast another game? Or not freaking out when one game has a slightly larger stage due to any number of issues? There are any number of ways that the community could be less focused on making sure they are "better" other games.
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Some people can't accept that other people have differente tastes.
I played FPS for so long, i can't stand it nowadays but i don't have any pleasure in saying something bad about it.
Same with league, i played DOTA when it came out with Warcarft 3 but i never found it to be a good type of game for me. So i simply dont play, watch or follow it.
I simply don't care about it, does that give me the right to offend it's players? Not.. it doesn't !
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On July 16 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 04:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
So are we looking to resolve the differences in communities or introduce people into other games?
That's two very different objectives. Well how about we settle for not hating on casters when they cast another game? Or not freaking out when one game has a slightly larger stage due to any number of issues? There are any number of ways that the community could be less focused on making sure they are "better" other games.
The counter argument did not start with people saying bashing on other games is right. You are turning the discussion into a completely different direction to discredit it. Please stick with what was actually said in replying.
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On July 16 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 04:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
So are we looking to resolve the differences in communities or introduce people into other games?
That's two very different objectives. Well how about we settle for not hating on casters when they cast another game? Or not freaking out when one game has a slightly larger stage due to any number of issues? There are any number of ways that the community could be less focused on making sure they are "better" other games.
How do we proactively do that? There will always be a minority who hates on others for doing that, the casters gain a new audience regardless. Rather than minimize the amount of haters who are stubborn and unlikely to change, casters just need to ensure that they are welcomed in the new community.
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My ideas would be:
Have end of season tournaments per league. Top 8,5,4,2,1, whatever the optimal number would all go into an open bracket and the winner would receive a prize, the extent of the prize based on their league. The more achievements players receive while playing would make them want to stick to the game because it feels like they're achieving something.
More to that, having an extra league above GM would provide a more spread out ladder and would have a lot more competiton at the top end of the ladder. Especially watching streams would be a lot more entertaining as the pro players would be almost playing other pros exclusivley which would result in more exciting and fun games AND a great practice enviroment for the pros.
I also feel that making divisions actually mean something would be a great thing. It might mess around with my first point, but the whole idea of that was just having an end of season tournament. If you have ranked divisions in leagues, it would promote more competition, and an extra sense of accomplishing something within the game.
Most of my ideas revolve around competitivness, I feel that's a great approach to a game like SC2 which is already primarly based around that idea. I feel like improving the Arcade and Team games for the more casual players would be amazing to attract players. Blizzard did such a great job with Warcraft III custom games, would love to see an equally as good system in SC2.
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On July 16 2013 03:35 Drlemur wrote:
As a caster, Axeltoss, I think you can do a lot to help -- can you cast SC2 to help the Dota2/LoL players follow the game better?
Likewise, can the Dota2/LoL casters help me watch them? I have the same daunting feeling you mention that I have no idea what is going on when trying to watch the best playing those games. I have even played them, but following the pro game is like trying to jump from bronze to GM in understanding, it's just a different game.
As mainly an SC2 player, I might be biased but I think we're most fun to watch. But if there was a caster who helped me capture the excitement and understanding of the MOBA games, maybe I could watch those to.
At the same time, I think it is very hard to just drop in and watch SC2 if you don't know the game really well. Many of my bronze league level friends have trouble following the cast. I don't think there's any chance I could get a non-player to watch even the best casters from WCS and be able to keep up at all.
Or is the depth of game knowledge in each title just too different to make it accessible to non-experts or across titles? If so, it's going to be hard to build a really big esports community.
I do think the casters of the matches are extremely important to attracting new viewers. Personally, I played a lot of brood war ( I was never good) but I didn't know a pro league existed until I made friends with a korean many years later who watched the proleague/osl matches religiously. I would watch a lot of them with him, and I understood the basics of the game so I could follow what was going on (even though I didn't understand the Korean casters or know any of the players)
When I started to follow sc2, I had a 6 year old laptop at the time that couldn't play the game so I had no idea about the new units, strats, or anything. But I remember watching Doa, painuser and HD on various casts who would make brief explanations about why what a player is doing is good/bad/some reasoning and it made it much more enjoyable to watch.
I think many casters forget that not everyone they are talking to understand the game implicitly, and this I think goes double for LoL and Dota2. Sc2 on a whole I think has better casters than Dota/LoL because SC2 casters do a much better job at breaking things down for viewers and that's important for making people understand the game who may not have played it and it could arouse interest in a viewer to pick up the game.
As communities go, I think uniting the different fan bases is an improbable task simply because people have different interests. I follow Dota 2 and SC2 but I have zero desire to follow LoL or any fighting games.
Improving the way different communities treat and interact with each other over the internet (I doubt the extremely toxic comments happen very often at lan) is a worthwhile goal, and hopefully some of what you say does come to fruition. It will be tough but good luck
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On July 16 2013 04:12 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 04:08 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 04:03 Torte de Lini wrote:
So are we looking to resolve the differences in communities or introduce people into other games?
That's two very different objectives. Well how about we settle for not hating on casters when they cast another game? Or not freaking out when one game has a slightly larger stage due to any number of issues? There are any number of ways that the community could be less focused on making sure they are "better" other games. How do we proactively do that? There will always be a minority who hates on others for doing that, the casters gain a new audience regardless. Rather than minimize the amount of haters who are stubborn and unlikely to change, casters just need to ensure that they are welcomed in the new community.
Well, your right that we can't proactively do that, but the thread "Artosis and Tasteless to cast World of Tanks" is a great example of the community spending a lot of time discussing and hating on another game for no real reason. WoT is not for me, but there are people who love it and play it a lot. Why that thread stayed open for so long is beyond me, but I am sure someone from the World of Tank community was less than thrilled about it.
It is just an example, but I to believe Idra is correct that SC2 players and the community need to get off their high horse about the game and crapping on others.
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High tide raises all boats. Esports as a whole is better if LoL, SC2, Dota, etc get bigger. I like to compare Esports to the XGames. Maybe the BMX guys bash the skateboarders, but overall I doubt it. It's all part of the same culture. There's a symbiotic relationship there, whether people want to admit it or not.
All that said, we would do well to keep our own side of the street clean. While the SC2 scene can be very helpful (glhf and all that), it can also be amazingly bitter and cynical. It's also fairly immature. Part of this stems from the age range of the people who make up the player base, but if you want the population at large to take you seriously, the powers that be need to start acting a bit more pro than they do. This is obviously a statement towards the people with influence in the community (casters, commentators, progamers, teams, etc).
As an example, think of the XGames again. Compare their tournaments to ours. Obviously there's production value is higher as they're on TV, but compare the commentary. There's a lot less joking around, inside jokes, etc. They take it seriously, even if the culture is decidedly counter culture for the most part. Be a pro, act like it, and people will follow.
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Perhaps looking at it this way: NFL, NBA, MLB, Esports
Rather than: NFL, NBA, MLB, LoL, SC2, Dota 2
I completely agree with this. E-Sports is just so small compared to those huge leagues right now. Some games that are regarded as top E-Sports right now might not even end up growing to become a huge league like NFL,NBA etc. Combining the different communities all under one might prove to be a great success and offer huge growth to players trying out different games. More people playing=More money for developers. More money= Opportunity to expand E-Sports.
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While I agree that hatred between communities is useless, I don't get the "it's all ESPORTS" mantra either. I have absolutely nothing to do with LoL or Dota. I don't hate them, but I don't care for them anymore than I care for a random TV show I don't watch. Why should I care? If I like hockey, do I have to care about curling too because they're both played on ice? That's also why I find the term eSports annoying. I don't care about esports, I care about Starcraft.
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On July 16 2013 04:32 blackone wrote:
While I agree that hatred between communities is useless, I don't get the "it's all ESPORTS" mantra either. I have absolutely nothing to do with LoL or Dota. I don't hate them, but I don't care for them anymore than I care for a random TV show I don't watch. Why should I care? If I like hockey, do I have to care about curling too because they're both played on ice? That's also why I find the term eSports annoying. I don't care about esports, I care about Starcraft.
Sponsors for one game will generally also sponsor other games. They see you as a target demographic, that being "esports lover", not "SC2 lover". When more sponsors get involved, Starcraft benefits directly. So while you don't need to care or watch other games, what happens with them is pretty important to the SC scene. See JinAir sponsoring Team 8 for a very recent example of this.
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I'm very conflicted on this.
I just don't think we can build an unified community between these games. We don't have the same culture at all.
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I was always shocked by the animosity that many players of Starcraft, League and Dota had towards each other. And don't even get me started on what these guys think of the fighting game, or fps communities. The thing is it is just so much easier to hate on something you don't understand, rather than reach out with an open mind and give it a chance. You don't even need to like the game, you can never play it again after a few matches if you want. All you need to do is look for the competitive depth, and the things that make that game appealing to others if not yourself. And who knows, you may find yourself losing a few hundred or even thousands of hours on a whole other game if you end up enjoying it (I'm looking at you league of legends -_-).
Also, those threads on reddit are great and the responses are affirming. Makes me want to go make one on the Dota 2 forum!
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My main objectives are:
- Don't discriminate based on game. We're all eSports.
- Encourage others to get into it, using my own time, energy and enthusiasm to teach them
- Spend. Money. Can't stress that enough. Don't whine about PPV, or buying tickets, or anything else. That'll come later. Just eat out like, one less time per month and support the fucking industry.
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On July 16 2013 04:36 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 04:32 blackone wrote:
While I agree that hatred between communities is useless, I don't get the "it's all ESPORTS" mantra either. I have absolutely nothing to do with LoL or Dota. I don't hate them, but I don't care for them anymore than I care for a random TV show I don't watch. Why should I care? If I like hockey, do I have to care about curling too because they're both played on ice? That's also why I find the term eSports annoying. I don't care about esports, I care about Starcraft. Sponsors for one game will generally also sponsor other games. They see you as a target demographic, that being "esports lover", not "SC2 lover". When more sponsors get involved, Starcraft benefits directly. So while you don't need to care or watch other games, what happens with them is pretty important to the SC scene. See JinAir sponsoring Team 8 for a very recent example of this.
I don't want to be seen as a "target demographic". I am a person liking to play and watch certain computer games.
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On July 16 2013 04:32 blackone wrote:
While I agree that hatred between communities is useless, I don't get the "it's all ESPORTS" mantra either. I have absolutely nothing to do with LoL or Dota. I don't hate them, but I don't care for them anymore than I care for a random TV show I don't watch. Why should I care? If I like hockey, do I have to care about curling too because they're both played on ice? That's also why I find the term eSports annoying. I don't care about esports, I care about Starcraft.
Agreed, everytime I hear this "ESPORTS" shit I just wanna puke.
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On July 16 2013 04:39 Crownlol wrote:
My main objectives are:
- Don't discriminate based on game. We're all eSports.
- Encourage others to get into it, using my own time, energy and enthusiasm to teach them
- Spend. Money. Can't stress that enough. Don't whine about PPV, or buying tickets, or anything else. That'll come later. Just eat out like, one less time per month and support the fucking industry.
"Support the industry"? Why should I support an industry? I can give you my account details if you want to support someone.
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On July 16 2013 04:39 grs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 04:36 vesicular wrote:On July 16 2013 04:32 blackone wrote:
While I agree that hatred between communities is useless, I don't get the "it's all ESPORTS" mantra either. I have absolutely nothing to do with LoL or Dota. I don't hate them, but I don't care for them anymore than I care for a random TV show I don't watch. Why should I care? If I like hockey, do I have to care about curling too because they're both played on ice? That's also why I find the term eSports annoying. I don't care about esports, I care about Starcraft. Sponsors for one game will generally also sponsor other games. They see you as a target demographic, that being "esports lover", not "SC2 lover". When more sponsors get involved, Starcraft benefits directly. So while you don't need to care or watch other games, what happens with them is pretty important to the SC scene. See JinAir sponsoring Team 8 for a very recent example of this. I don't want to be seen as a "target demographic". I am a person liking to play and watch certain computer games.
Then you have no interest in the scene succeeding financially. Truth is, you're a target demo whether you like it or not. It's not up to you.
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EPT
