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On July 16 2013 04:46 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 04:39 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 04:36 vesicular wrote:On July 16 2013 04:32 blackone wrote:
While I agree that hatred between communities is useless, I don't get the "it's all ESPORTS" mantra either. I have absolutely nothing to do with LoL or Dota. I don't hate them, but I don't care for them anymore than I care for a random TV show I don't watch. Why should I care? If I like hockey, do I have to care about curling too because they're both played on ice? That's also why I find the term eSports annoying. I don't care about esports, I care about Starcraft. Sponsors for one game will generally also sponsor other games. They see you as a target demographic, that being "esports lover", not "SC2 lover". When more sponsors get involved, Starcraft benefits directly. So while you don't need to care or watch other games, what happens with them is pretty important to the SC scene. See JinAir sponsoring Team 8 for a very recent example of this. I don't want to be seen as a "target demographic". I am a person liking to play and watch certain computer games. Then you have no interest in the scene succeeding financially. Truth is, you're a target demo whether you like it or not. It's not up to you.
That is correct. I have no interest in others succeding financially. I buy products/services that I like and those are also products from the scene. I see no greater value behind it though.
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On July 16 2013 04:49 grs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 04:46 vesicular wrote:On July 16 2013 04:39 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 04:36 vesicular wrote:On July 16 2013 04:32 blackone wrote:
While I agree that hatred between communities is useless, I don't get the "it's all ESPORTS" mantra either. I have absolutely nothing to do with LoL or Dota. I don't hate them, but I don't care for them anymore than I care for a random TV show I don't watch. Why should I care? If I like hockey, do I have to care about curling too because they're both played on ice? That's also why I find the term eSports annoying. I don't care about esports, I care about Starcraft. Sponsors for one game will generally also sponsor other games. They see you as a target demographic, that being "esports lover", not "SC2 lover". When more sponsors get involved, Starcraft benefits directly. So while you don't need to care or watch other games, what happens with them is pretty important to the SC scene. See JinAir sponsoring Team 8 for a very recent example of this. I don't want to be seen as a "target demographic". I am a person liking to play and watch certain computer games. Then you have no interest in the scene succeeding financially. Truth is, you're a target demo whether you like it or not. It's not up to you. That is correct. I have no interest in others succeding financially. I buy products/services that I like and those are also products from the scene. I see no greater value behind it though.
Ok, well sounds like you have a solid plan there and buying stuff because you think it is good is valid. So NASL could offer a PPV team league and you would have no problems right?
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I think "ESPORTS" is less about forcing everyone to like every single game and more about showing the rest of the world that video games can be played at a competitive level that requires tremendous skill and dedication and is entertaining to watch.
"ESPORTS" is the answer to "why would you watch someone else play video games?" ESPORTS says "for the same reasons you watch someone else play baseball." Or poker. Or billiards.
I for one can't stand watching fighting games. But I also can't stand baseball! Or 3/4 quarters of most basketball games. So I'm not saying everyone has the same tastes. But if we all support the legitimacy of video games as a sport, regardless of what game it is, we can improve the community!
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The tension isn't between Lol/DotA/whatever-flavor-of-the-month-MOBA and SC2. It's between ESPORTS INC. and SC2.
I don't care about esports. I fully understand that esports is the money machine that drives professional starcraft, but don't care about Razor or Doritos or Dr Pepper. I used to buy GOM, now I buy the OGN/Starleague pass. That's my financial support of the sport I care about - the no-bullshit, highest-level of play, by consummate quiet professionals who take starcraft as a job. If SC2 is truly a sport, the people who play it should act more like athletes and less like reality-TV stars.
I don't care about youtube/twitch "personalities", and I personally despise the EG model of nerd-rage entertainment to drive views to drive media sponsorship. It's all about feeding the machine, give us likes on facebook, likes on youtube, tweet and hashtag some bullshit. Subscribe! Comment!
This is the same thing with this Dota2-outreach. Stop making me try to care about games I don't care about. At all. There is a vast parasitic infrastructure that exists for no damned good reason. Do we really need a dozen talk shows featuring the same thirty people, just talking heads on Skype? No. But the machine must be fed, which is why they flog other games, to sustain interest. Just stop. This isn't an elitist thing, just the simple insistence that how I choose to spend my leisure time is none of your business. TeamLiquid gets it - there are buttons on the frontpage to turn off Dota and Other.
ESPORTS INC. wants an attractive demographic of hard-to-reach 18-35 males who don't watch TV anymore, so they can sell it to advertisers. I don't care about that. Let me play my starcraft and watch my heroes in peace.
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On July 16 2013 04:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 04:49 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 04:46 vesicular wrote:On July 16 2013 04:39 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 04:36 vesicular wrote:On July 16 2013 04:32 blackone wrote:
While I agree that hatred between communities is useless, I don't get the "it's all ESPORTS" mantra either. I have absolutely nothing to do with LoL or Dota. I don't hate them, but I don't care for them anymore than I care for a random TV show I don't watch. Why should I care? If I like hockey, do I have to care about curling too because they're both played on ice? That's also why I find the term eSports annoying. I don't care about esports, I care about Starcraft. Sponsors for one game will generally also sponsor other games. They see you as a target demographic, that being "esports lover", not "SC2 lover". When more sponsors get involved, Starcraft benefits directly. So while you don't need to care or watch other games, what happens with them is pretty important to the SC scene. See JinAir sponsoring Team 8 for a very recent example of this. I don't want to be seen as a "target demographic". I am a person liking to play and watch certain computer games. Then you have no interest in the scene succeeding financially. Truth is, you're a target demo whether you like it or not. It's not up to you. That is correct. I have no interest in others succeding financially. I buy products/services that I like and those are also products from the scene. I see no greater value behind it though. Ok, well sounds like you have a solid plan there and buying stuff because you think it is good is valid. So NASL could offer a PPV team league and you would have no problems right?
I would have no problem with them offering a PPV team league. Depending on whether I would want to watch it, I would pay for it. What I have a "problem" with (problem being a bit too strong) is the mentality that pumping money into an abstract idea like esports is good. I do not think that is the right direction for competitive gaming. In the end, if the product is good, people will pay for it to watch it. Competitive gaming is not there yet on a larger scale in my opinion. This has its reason partly in the way the content if offered, but mostly in - for outsiders - alienating side aspects like stream quality, presentation, accessability, etc. I can't imagine anyone watching ppv TV/movies besides hardcore fans in the quality that gaming is presented right now.
I myself love competitive gaming. I played in international esports leagues before there was a word esports. That is the reason I am watching and am willing to pay for parts of it. The idea I like behind it, is the competition itself; the amount of money involved does not make it more attractive to me.
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On July 16 2013 05:04 grs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 04:52 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 04:49 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 04:46 vesicular wrote:On July 16 2013 04:39 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 04:36 vesicular wrote:On July 16 2013 04:32 blackone wrote:
While I agree that hatred between communities is useless, I don't get the "it's all ESPORTS" mantra either. I have absolutely nothing to do with LoL or Dota. I don't hate them, but I don't care for them anymore than I care for a random TV show I don't watch. Why should I care? If I like hockey, do I have to care about curling too because they're both played on ice? That's also why I find the term eSports annoying. I don't care about esports, I care about Starcraft. Sponsors for one game will generally also sponsor other games. They see you as a target demographic, that being "esports lover", not "SC2 lover". When more sponsors get involved, Starcraft benefits directly. So while you don't need to care or watch other games, what happens with them is pretty important to the SC scene. See JinAir sponsoring Team 8 for a very recent example of this. I don't want to be seen as a "target demographic". I am a person liking to play and watch certain computer games. Then you have no interest in the scene succeeding financially. Truth is, you're a target demo whether you like it or not. It's not up to you. That is correct. I have no interest in others succeding financially. I buy products/services that I like and those are also products from the scene. I see no greater value behind it though. Ok, well sounds like you have a solid plan there and buying stuff because you think it is good is valid. So NASL could offer a PPV team league and you would have no problems right? I would have no problem with them offering a PPV team league. Depending on whether I would want to watch it, I would pay for it. What I have a "problem" with (problem being a bit too strong) is the mentality that pumping money into an abstract idea like esports is good. I do not think that is the right direction for competitive gaming. In the end, if the product is good, people will pay for it to watch it. Competitive gaming is not there yet on a larger scale in my opinion. This has its reason partly in the way the content if offered, but mostly in - for outsiders - alienating side aspects like stream quality, presentation, accessability, etc. I can't imagine anyone watching ppv TV/movies besides hardcore fans in the quality that gaming is presented right now. I myself love competitive gaming. I played in international esports leagues before there was a word esports. That is the reason I am watching and am willing to pay for parts of it. The idea I like behind it, is the competition itself; the amount of money involved does not make it more attractive to me.
I am with you that people shouldn't just support Esports because. My girlfriend and I ordered pizza from Papa Johns because we like EG and wanted to order pizza that was bad for us. We could have ordered other pizza, but its just a different phone number. That is the point people are trying to make, if you want a enegry drink and you like EG, get a Monster and let them know why. But the key part is like EG first. Its the same reason I support Giant Bomb, because they provide me with things I enjoy and everything else.
There are benifits to working with other games. If NASL was running both WCS and a Dota league, its easier for them to justify a huge studio and tons of production staff. Its easier for teams to move their players, since they all need to move to one place(near NASL).
So rather than thinking, 'Why are people trying to force me to like games I don't?" Look at is as, "how does this game make SC2 better? What can working with this game make my SC2 experience better?"
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This whole "help esports" Ideal is silly, I don't care if League of Legends get's its own spot on HBO and is cast in a stadium on an island built specially for it if Sc2 and Dota 2 aren't getting viewers. It's always the same thing, oh guys we are helping "ESPORTS" when it reality 95% of the time it's "hey guys we are going to talk about/show LoL and nothing else".
I don't want to watch LoL, I don't care about LoL, I don't care if their game is easy or hard because I simply don't care so why should I care that it becomes a successful esport. I understand maybe 2 years ago when people had this delusion that one esport doing good is good for all games but I think LoL has proved this isn't the case and often hurts other games (Dota 2 at dreamhack comes to mind).
So unless the LoL community wants to come and promote other games and grow our games then who cares, you don't go up a homeless guy and ask him to share his bread because sharing is good. You already have bread, how about you use that bread to feed some homeless.
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On July 16 2013 04:45 grs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 04:39 Crownlol wrote:
My main objectives are:
- Don't discriminate based on game. We're all eSports.
- Encourage others to get into it, using my own time, energy and enthusiasm to teach them
- Spend. Money. Can't stress that enough. Don't whine about PPV, or buying tickets, or anything else. That'll come later. Just eat out like, one less time per month and support the fucking industry. "Support the industry"? Why should I support an industry? I can give you my account details if you want to support someone.
A fledgling industry that has given you hours of entertainment deserves to be supported. Companies are just now becoming entrenched, new ones are starting up and dying off rapidly. Until MLG becomes NFL level, I'll spend a little extra.
Also, I helped at least 50 German TLers to watch IEM once to get past a restriction (paypall/CC only I believe). It ended up costing me a little out of my own pocket, but it isn't hard to help support everyone.
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On July 16 2013 05:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 05:04 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 04:52 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 04:49 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 04:46 vesicular wrote:On July 16 2013 04:39 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 04:36 vesicular wrote:On July 16 2013 04:32 blackone wrote:
While I agree that hatred between communities is useless, I don't get the "it's all ESPORTS" mantra either. I have absolutely nothing to do with LoL or Dota. I don't hate them, but I don't care for them anymore than I care for a random TV show I don't watch. Why should I care? If I like hockey, do I have to care about curling too because they're both played on ice? That's also why I find the term eSports annoying. I don't care about esports, I care about Starcraft. Sponsors for one game will generally also sponsor other games. They see you as a target demographic, that being "esports lover", not "SC2 lover". When more sponsors get involved, Starcraft benefits directly. So while you don't need to care or watch other games, what happens with them is pretty important to the SC scene. See JinAir sponsoring Team 8 for a very recent example of this. I don't want to be seen as a "target demographic". I am a person liking to play and watch certain computer games. Then you have no interest in the scene succeeding financially. Truth is, you're a target demo whether you like it or not. It's not up to you. That is correct. I have no interest in others succeding financially. I buy products/services that I like and those are also products from the scene. I see no greater value behind it though. Ok, well sounds like you have a solid plan there and buying stuff because you think it is good is valid. So NASL could offer a PPV team league and you would have no problems right? I would have no problem with them offering a PPV team league. Depending on whether I would want to watch it, I would pay for it. What I have a "problem" with (problem being a bit too strong) is the mentality that pumping money into an abstract idea like esports is good. I do not think that is the right direction for competitive gaming. In the end, if the product is good, people will pay for it to watch it. Competitive gaming is not there yet on a larger scale in my opinion. This has its reason partly in the way the content if offered, but mostly in - for outsiders - alienating side aspects like stream quality, presentation, accessability, etc. I can't imagine anyone watching ppv TV/movies besides hardcore fans in the quality that gaming is presented right now. I myself love competitive gaming. I played in international esports leagues before there was a word esports. That is the reason I am watching and am willing to pay for parts of it. The idea I like behind it, is the competition itself; the amount of money involved does not make it more attractive to me. I am with you that people shouldn't just support Esports because. My girlfriend and I ordered pizza from Papa Johns because we like EG and wanted to order pizza that was bad for us. We could have ordered other pizza, but its just a different phone number. That is the point people are trying to make, if you want a enegry drink and you like EG, get a Monster and let them know why. But the key part is like EG first. Its the same reason I support Giant Bomb, because they provide me with things I enjoy and everything else. There are benifits to working with other games. If NASL was running both WCS and a Dota league, its easier for them to justify a huge studio and tons of production staff. Its easier for teams to move their players, since they all need to move to one place(near NASL). So rather than thinking, 'Why are people trying to force me to like games I don't?" Look at is as, "how does this game make SC2 better? What can working with this game make my SC2 experience better?"
I think this post made me understand the difference in opinions better:
A few posts up I said, that I don't want to be seen as a target demographic. I do not buy products because my favourite Ice Hockey team has them on their jersey. The whole Papa-John's deal was very strange (or even ugly) for me. I do not react to marketing (or at least I hope I don't react a lot to it at least) and what I definately dislike is crossselling. I buy my pizza, where it tastes good and I watch my computer games where I enjoy them.
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By now I've given up on the idea that all communities can be friendly to each other at some point. Especially LoL and Dota2 will probably always argue, fight and hate on each other. By now it seems like a religious debate to me, where most of the hate for the other one is based on ignorance, and there will always be people who reach out and try their best to bring them together somehow, but it will mostly just be a drop in the bucket. Sorry to be so pessimistic on this issue, but I honestly believe the ability of communities to grow up emotionally doesn't go that far, especially as long as we time and time again have figureheads fuel the "war" between them.
Wow those 2-3 years of SC2/LoL/Dota involvement have made me really pessimistic on the subject. I never realized that before to be honest, but every time I read the comments on something LoL related in here it punches me back into this mindset.
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What do you think we at /r/starcraft can do to help further this?
In terms of working with the /r/dota2 and /r/leagueoflegends reddits, I'm sure we could work toward promoting some kind of cross game 'events' - coaching/cross pollination of game knowledge and just casual game nights across the games and subs.
Any other ideas?
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On July 16 2013 05:20 grs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 05:12 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 05:04 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 04:52 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 04:49 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 04:46 vesicular wrote:On July 16 2013 04:39 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 04:36 vesicular wrote:On July 16 2013 04:32 blackone wrote:
While I agree that hatred between communities is useless, I don't get the "it's all ESPORTS" mantra either. I have absolutely nothing to do with LoL or Dota. I don't hate them, but I don't care for them anymore than I care for a random TV show I don't watch. Why should I care? If I like hockey, do I have to care about curling too because they're both played on ice? That's also why I find the term eSports annoying. I don't care about esports, I care about Starcraft. Sponsors for one game will generally also sponsor other games. They see you as a target demographic, that being "esports lover", not "SC2 lover". When more sponsors get involved, Starcraft benefits directly. So while you don't need to care or watch other games, what happens with them is pretty important to the SC scene. See JinAir sponsoring Team 8 for a very recent example of this. I don't want to be seen as a "target demographic". I am a person liking to play and watch certain computer games. Then you have no interest in the scene succeeding financially. Truth is, you're a target demo whether you like it or not. It's not up to you. That is correct. I have no interest in others succeding financially. I buy products/services that I like and those are also products from the scene. I see no greater value behind it though. Ok, well sounds like you have a solid plan there and buying stuff because you think it is good is valid. So NASL could offer a PPV team league and you would have no problems right? I would have no problem with them offering a PPV team league. Depending on whether I would want to watch it, I would pay for it. What I have a "problem" with (problem being a bit too strong) is the mentality that pumping money into an abstract idea like esports is good. I do not think that is the right direction for competitive gaming. In the end, if the product is good, people will pay for it to watch it. Competitive gaming is not there yet on a larger scale in my opinion. This has its reason partly in the way the content if offered, but mostly in - for outsiders - alienating side aspects like stream quality, presentation, accessability, etc. I can't imagine anyone watching ppv TV/movies besides hardcore fans in the quality that gaming is presented right now. I myself love competitive gaming. I played in international esports leagues before there was a word esports. That is the reason I am watching and am willing to pay for parts of it. The idea I like behind it, is the competition itself; the amount of money involved does not make it more attractive to me. I am with you that people shouldn't just support Esports because. My girlfriend and I ordered pizza from Papa Johns because we like EG and wanted to order pizza that was bad for us. We could have ordered other pizza, but its just a different phone number. That is the point people are trying to make, if you want a enegry drink and you like EG, get a Monster and let them know why. But the key part is like EG first. Its the same reason I support Giant Bomb, because they provide me with things I enjoy and everything else. There are benifits to working with other games. If NASL was running both WCS and a Dota league, its easier for them to justify a huge studio and tons of production staff. Its easier for teams to move their players, since they all need to move to one place(near NASL). So rather than thinking, 'Why are people trying to force me to like games I don't?" Look at is as, "how does this game make SC2 better? What can working with this game make my SC2 experience better?" I think this post made me understand the difference in opinions better: A few posts up I said, that I don't want to be seen as a target demographic. I do not buy products because my favourite Ice Hockey team has them on their jersey. The whole Papa-John's deal was very strange (or even ugly) for me. I do not react to marketing (or at least I hope I don't react a lot to it at least) and what I definately dislike is crossselling. I buy my pizza, where it tastes good and I watch my computer games where I enjoy them.
That's fine and there are no problems with that. You don't need to buy stuff you don't like. My girlfriend and I didnt' really care where we got our unhealthy pizza from, so we decided Papa Johns. But a lot of these teams are going to try an make money, including TL. So its ok if they try and market stuff, right? At the end fo the day, you don't need to buy it.
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On July 16 2013 05:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 05:20 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 05:12 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 05:04 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 04:52 Plansix wrote:On July 16 2013 04:49 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 04:46 vesicular wrote:On July 16 2013 04:39 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 04:36 vesicular wrote:On July 16 2013 04:32 blackone wrote:
While I agree that hatred between communities is useless, I don't get the "it's all ESPORTS" mantra either. I have absolutely nothing to do with LoL or Dota. I don't hate them, but I don't care for them anymore than I care for a random TV show I don't watch. Why should I care? If I like hockey, do I have to care about curling too because they're both played on ice? That's also why I find the term eSports annoying. I don't care about esports, I care about Starcraft. Sponsors for one game will generally also sponsor other games. They see you as a target demographic, that being "esports lover", not "SC2 lover". When more sponsors get involved, Starcraft benefits directly. So while you don't need to care or watch other games, what happens with them is pretty important to the SC scene. See JinAir sponsoring Team 8 for a very recent example of this. I don't want to be seen as a "target demographic". I am a person liking to play and watch certain computer games. Then you have no interest in the scene succeeding financially. Truth is, you're a target demo whether you like it or not. It's not up to you. That is correct. I have no interest in others succeding financially. I buy products/services that I like and those are also products from the scene. I see no greater value behind it though. Ok, well sounds like you have a solid plan there and buying stuff because you think it is good is valid. So NASL could offer a PPV team league and you would have no problems right? I would have no problem with them offering a PPV team league. Depending on whether I would want to watch it, I would pay for it. What I have a "problem" with (problem being a bit too strong) is the mentality that pumping money into an abstract idea like esports is good. I do not think that is the right direction for competitive gaming. In the end, if the product is good, people will pay for it to watch it. Competitive gaming is not there yet on a larger scale in my opinion. This has its reason partly in the way the content if offered, but mostly in - for outsiders - alienating side aspects like stream quality, presentation, accessability, etc. I can't imagine anyone watching ppv TV/movies besides hardcore fans in the quality that gaming is presented right now. I myself love competitive gaming. I played in international esports leagues before there was a word esports. That is the reason I am watching and am willing to pay for parts of it. The idea I like behind it, is the competition itself; the amount of money involved does not make it more attractive to me. I am with you that people shouldn't just support Esports because. My girlfriend and I ordered pizza from Papa Johns because we like EG and wanted to order pizza that was bad for us. We could have ordered other pizza, but its just a different phone number. That is the point people are trying to make, if you want a enegry drink and you like EG, get a Monster and let them know why. But the key part is like EG first. Its the same reason I support Giant Bomb, because they provide me with things I enjoy and everything else. There are benifits to working with other games. If NASL was running both WCS and a Dota league, its easier for them to justify a huge studio and tons of production staff. Its easier for teams to move their players, since they all need to move to one place(near NASL). So rather than thinking, 'Why are people trying to force me to like games I don't?" Look at is as, "how does this game make SC2 better? What can working with this game make my SC2 experience better?" I think this post made me understand the difference in opinions better: A few posts up I said, that I don't want to be seen as a target demographic. I do not buy products because my favourite Ice Hockey team has them on their jersey. The whole Papa-John's deal was very strange (or even ugly) for me. I do not react to marketing (or at least I hope I don't react a lot to it at least) and what I definately dislike is crossselling. I buy my pizza, where it tastes good and I watch my computer games where I enjoy them. That's fine and there are no problems with that. You don't need to buy stuff you don't like. My girlfriend and I didnt' really care where we got our unhealthy pizza from, so we decided Papa Johns. But a lot of these teams are going to try an make money, including TL. So its ok if they try and market stuff, right? At the end fo the day, you don't need to buy it.
No problem at all. I just think the product is far from there to be marketed on a bigger scale yet. And if it were, it would probably change things in a way, that might not interest me anymore. I'll just leave it at that, since we can just agree to disagree, what is not the worst end for a forum discussion by far.
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I hate to say it, but Mr. G.I. Fields makes some valid points. Why are we reaching out now? Becuase we have less than 200k active weekly players, SC2 or RTS for that matter is the poor cousin in the market. There are '000's of posts about the 'learning and skill curve etc' but the real impediment that is stifling the growth of SC2 remains Blizzard Ent.
The release of HOTS in our market (Australia) received ZERO marketing, publicity or mainstream coverage. Unless you were a TL fanboy you wouldn't even know it was released. I can only speak for Aus, not sure what you guys experienced, but seems like Blizz weren't really fussed. As a case in point - WOW advertising has been in mainstream media here for nearly 10 years. Even if you've never played WOW, the average aussie knows what it is.
Axeltoss, thanks for a great thought starter, but I think the boat has sailed! Any response from the MOBA boys is more out of pity than collaboration. I hope I'm wrong. Blizzard, wake the f up and promote the bloody game.
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The biggest problem I have with "the community" is that it takes itself too serious and too important. Any computer game will only have a rather limited lifespan - unlike "real sports" games - but the community seems to be under the delusion that it must reach the same degree of popularity. Even BW only lasted 15 years in the one country which has the biggest predisposition towards esports ... which basically invented it. Any of the motivational "lets grow eSports" threads or comments are consequently rather terrible and delusional, because you shouldnt try to force growth over night. Even regular sports took decades to grow and some didnt really make it outside certain corners of the world.
There is another bad part about the community and that is the rather childish "hatred" which is shown towards "other" games based on the "I dont like them, so they have to be terrible" argument. All computer games which are played competitively are part of eSports and thus at most people should ignore the games they dont like ... because hatred is a waste of time, because no one will be convinced otherwise by the typical arguments.
Yet another reason why I dont like the "vocal PvP community" is because they are part of the reason why Blizzard ruined WoW (at least for me it was part of the reason why I stopped liking the game anymore). Because "tournament PvP" had to be "fair" and "every class had to be viable" they fiddled around so much with the classes that they became less distinct. Obviously they gave the "oh we want to put fewer requirements on classes for groups so we spread key abilities X, Y and Z among them", but that way of thinking started with PvP. So basically I really truly hate people who have to make a competition of an MMO game and thus ruin the "us against the NPC monsters" design concept by forcing the devs to design classes which are "fair" and "balanced" against each other. This "balance between classes whining" trend isnt limited to fans of eSports and it was part of the reason why the D&D 4e was really terribly designed and took the distinctions of the separate classes (Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Mage) right out of the system and forced them to follow the same straightjacket line of development. Playing a different class doesnt change a thing ... except for "the color" or "the smell" or "the feel" of your character sheet. That is boring and because of this I really hate idiots who prefer to kill their friends instead of working together with them with a passion. We live in a world of "look at me" idiots and they should not ruin a perfectly good team game. For SC2 this equates to people whose only concept of "playing for fun" is "winning in 1v1" or "climbing the ladder" ... Its a GAME and is meant to be played FOR FUN+ Show Spoiler + (but sadly isnt designed for it)
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i think the lesson to learn from the growth and longevity of other esports titles over the years is that the community (in terms of interactivity) actually matters very little in producing a sustainable scene. lol and dota having the worst and least impactful communities showing consistent huge growth, and sc1 with the same community but a different platform growing larger than sc2 has so far, at least in asian markets. whether the community tries or not if the game is appealing new players will find their way to it, and only then can the community take part in keeping them around. starcraft as it stands today is so insuler that there is almost no new players joining, so no matter how hard individuals work to make the scene strong, the numbers following the scene can only fall.
the key to sustainability or growth is the developers of the game to either leave the platform open ended so that active communities like brood wars can create their own content or situations that are very welcoming for casual and new fans. with asia having an easily pirated game with huge ability for customization and a purely fun experience, that is the gateway to adding in more 'serious' fans.
league of legends has a similar but different approach. the developers are constantly working to provide for the community. taking the place of the active community of broodwar they take the community developed custom games such as ARAM and give it full client support. they are actively aware of the plight of the casual viewer in the development of both their game and the client around it. and they show awareness that while balance is important at the top level, gameplay concerns at a lower level can clearly be addressed without affecting that balance.
contrast this with blizzard. they have shown an utter disregard for the more casual friendly team game brackets, a consistant lack of understanding of the custom map community and have been slow and lumbering with their attempts at offering support. they have shown a lack of cohesiveness in their product meaning that if you arent already invested in the scene its hard to find the door.
the fact is you dont just pull your esport viewer out of the public and introduce them to proleague, thats just not how it works. just as in all sports and esports by opening the game up to the casual audience you allow people who choose to dedicate themselves to the scene to rise out of the mix by themselves. and although a scene itself can work hard to make the path from casual to avid follower as simple as possible, it ultimately falls to the developer to make the game casual friendly in the first place. i dont accept that arguments posted by some that marketing or development time are crucial factors here as its easy to point to successful games like LoL which was huge before they advertised in the mainstream, and mods like DotA which grew in a model that involved no cash or marketing of any kind, purely word of mouth.
its no secret that blizzard is a hugely profitable company with huge cash reserves, they could if they wanted to make esports around their game huge, if they gave real active support to the casual fans, and stopped allowing their desire for DRM/control to cripple the custom game scene they could own the biggest esport title in the world, but the fact is no matter how profitable esports becomes in korea or elsewhere, its a drop in the ocean compared to WoW and CoD, and until that changes blizzard simply wont give a shit.
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On July 16 2013 05:38 Rabiator wrote:The biggest problem I have with "the community" is that it takes itself too serious and too important. Any computer game will only have a rather limited lifespan - unlike "real sports" games - but the community seems to be under the delusion that it must reach the same degree of popularity. Even BW only lasted 15 years in the one country which has the biggest predisposition towards esports ... which basically invented it. Any of the motivational "lets grow eSports" threads or comments are consequently rather terrible and delusional, because you shouldnt try to force growth over night. Even regular sports took decades to grow and some didnt really make it outside certain corners of the world. There is another bad part about the community and that is the rather childish "hatred" which is shown towards "other" games based on the "I dont like them, so they have to be terrible" argument. All computer games which are played competitively are part of eSports and thus at most people should ignore the games they dont like ... because hatred is a waste of time, because no one will be convinced otherwise by the typical arguments. Yet another reason why I dont like the "vocal PvP community" is because they are part of the reason why Blizzard ruined WoW (at least for me it was part of the reason why I stopped liking the game anymore). Because "tournament PvP" had to be "fair" and "every class had to be viable" they fiddled around so much with the classes that they became less distinct. Obviously they gave the "oh we want to put fewer requirements on classes for groups so we spread key abilities X, Y and Z among them", but that way of thinking started with PvP. So basically I really truly hate people who have to make a competition of an MMO game and thus ruin the "us against the NPC monsters" design concept by forcing the devs to design classes which are "fair" and "balanced" against each other. This "balance between classes whining" trend isnt limited to fans of eSports and it was part of the reason why the D&D 4e was really terribly designed and took the distinctions of the separate classes (Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Mage) right out of the system and forced them to follow the same straightjacket line of development. Playing a different class doesnt change a thing ... except for "the color" or "the smell" or "the feel" of your character sheet. That is boring and because of this I really hate idiots who prefer to kill their friends instead of working together with them with a passion. We live in a world of "look at me" idiots and they should not ruin a perfectly good team game. For SC2 this equates to people whose only concept of "playing for fun" is "winning in 1v1" or "climbing the ladder" ... Its a GAME and is meant to be played FOR FUN + Show Spoiler + (but sadly isnt designed for it) .
In WoW, PvE ruined PvP, not the other way around.
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its doing fine, its doing better than it has ever before :/
esports isnt suffering, its doing great.
if we're talking individual game and help that...who can? as for sc2 we fucking tried, community has given their voice with countless ideas and threads but sc2 will be what blizzard wants it to be.
my random babble:
my suggestion would be to make sc2 difficult (or any game), and i mean fucking difficult, why?
well, at the moment its like "here, everyone has the potential to be the best sc2 player, so go at it!"
what i'd prefer is "everyone has the potential to be great in sc2 but only a few with extra something can become the best".
thats how i felt with bw, bw pros were beyond a level i can achieve mechanically and strategically, something unachievable without the right environment and time. i watched bw pros in awe, its how it got me into it, like witnessing the craziness and huge balls of f1 racers. sc2? none, nada of that.
maybe i've come to be too entitled but it feels like anyone can achieve it if they tried hard enough, even then the differences between the pros seem minimal, no more the days of "S class" being on another than "A class", now they're interchangeable on monthly bases...because of the limited space a player can improve/have difference between players mechanically.
sc2 offers anyone can be ulsan bolt if they tried hard enough, we(blizzard) give you height, weight, muscle, you just need to practice.
in bw, you had it or you didnt, no catering.
professional level should mean something, set apart from amateurs.
however i know i'm wrong, lol proves my theory wrong if i understand it correctly
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This is probably a long shot, but does anyone know where that LAN center in Texas is that he mentioned.
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I think that the 'community' would benefit greatly from a bit less misogynical tendencies (yes, I'm mainly thinking about twitch chat, the only thing in the world even comparable to youtube comments) and a less macho image.
I mean, some of the terms that casters use on regular basis are awkward. And where are the female casters? What's the deal with women only being considered competent for asking players how they feel about winning their games? I know Maddelisk casted SM, but it was only in swedish and for a newspaper, so it wasn't really the great mainstream esports content we all know.
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EPT
