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On July 16 2013 03:12 grs wrote:
Is there a reason people who like Ice Hockey have to like Football? I don't think so. Why is there an urge to unite communities for different games? I like Starcraft, I like Dota and I like LoL. I find fighting games utterly stupid on the other hand. That does not mean I should go around and bash people that like fighting games, but it does also not mean I have to like fighting games, just because I like other games.
winner.
There is no problem about communities. The real issue is some of the toxicity within the games and their communities.
And the disproportion of interest from those at the top.
In my opinion, the gesture is nice, but misplaced.
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On July 16 2013 03:14 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 03:12 grs wrote:
Is there a reason people who like Ice Hockey have to like Football? I don't think so. Why is there an urge to unite communities for different games? I like Starcraft, I like Dota and I like LoL. I find fighting games utterly stupid on the other hand. That does not mean I should go around and bash people that like fighting games, but it does also not mean I have to like fighting games, just because I like other games. winner. There is no problem about communities. The real issue is some of the toxicity within the games and their communities. And the disproportion of interest from those at the top. In my opinion, the gesture is nice, but misplaced.
What did I win? 
And happy birthday!
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Great write Alextoss! Love the idea!
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On July 16 2013 03:19 grs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 03:14 Torte de Lini wrote:On July 16 2013 03:12 grs wrote:
Is there a reason people who like Ice Hockey have to like Football? I don't think so. Why is there an urge to unite communities for different games? I like Starcraft, I like Dota and I like LoL. I find fighting games utterly stupid on the other hand. That does not mean I should go around and bash people that like fighting games, but it does also not mean I have to like fighting games, just because I like other games. winner. There is no problem about communities. The real issue is some of the toxicity within the games and their communities. And the disproportion of interest from those at the top. In my opinion, the gesture is nice, but misplaced. What did I win? And happy birthday!
a reality check and thank you :D bwahaha
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I admit that I made fun of soccer sometimes. I guess it is part of the competitive feeling for some people of being the best in the world, even if it is just you being the fan of the best game in the world.
Pretty much a global problem based on the way education is run. If we would manage to get rid of that in gaming, then it would be a heavenly deed. Or it would ruin any competitive gaming, as we would be to nice and don't care about winning.
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On July 16 2013 03:14 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 03:12 grs wrote:
Is there a reason people who like Ice Hockey have to like Football? I don't think so. Why is there an urge to unite communities for different games? I like Starcraft, I like Dota and I like LoL. I find fighting games utterly stupid on the other hand. That does not mean I should go around and bash people that like fighting games, but it does also not mean I have to like fighting games, just because I like other games. winner. There is no problem about communities. The real issue is some of the toxicity within the games and their communities. And the disproportion of interest from those at the top. In my opinion, the gesture is nice, but misplaced.
Yeah, thats how I feel about it aswell. I like the whole esports idea, and I think 'getting along' will get us alot further than being rude to eachother - but if I only want to watch starcraft, I am only going to watch starcraft. I'd love to see more people come and join the starcrafttrain, but I have no urge to attract more people towards games that I dont follow, or start following it myself even if I already tried to get into it in the past.
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On July 16 2013 03:14 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 03:12 grs wrote:
Is there a reason people who like Ice Hockey have to like Football? I don't think so. Why is there an urge to unite communities for different games? I like Starcraft, I like Dota and I like LoL. I find fighting games utterly stupid on the other hand. That does not mean I should go around and bash people that like fighting games, but it does also not mean I have to like fighting games, just because I like other games. winner. There is no problem about communities. The real issue is some of the toxicity within the games and their communities. And the disproportion of interest from those at the top. In my opinion, the gesture is nice, but misplaced.
It's not a perfect comparison however. Hockey and football are established enough and have their own world going on. Esport games kind of compete, the bigger games gets the bigger stages, bigger prizepools - I'd say more tournaments, but LoL seems to be going with leagues instead, whereas we have a million single tournaments - and sponsors are starting to lean towards LoL more than sc2 (not too heavily, mind you, but team MVP for example, and I think it was team Light before they abandoned their sc2 team? might not have been them; some lesser known team had a sponsor that didn't want to support their sc2 squad)
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On July 16 2013 03:14 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 03:12 grs wrote:
Is there a reason people who like Ice Hockey have to like Football? I don't think so. Why is there an urge to unite communities for different games? I like Starcraft, I like Dota and I like LoL. I find fighting games utterly stupid on the other hand. That does not mean I should go around and bash people that like fighting games, but it does also not mean I have to like fighting games, just because I like other games. winner. There is no problem about communities. The real issue is some of the toxicity within the games and their communities. And the disproportion of interest from those at the top. In my opinion, the gesture is nice, but misplaced.
I'm not certain how relevant this is. Perhaps it's more about once we get there we can bicker. Those examples you mentioned are already successful enough where it doesn't really matter that there might be animosity between them all. With how small esports is compared to those examples, I feel it's quite counter productive to show too much animosity towards other games.
I'm not saying hold hands and play all the games, I'm saying be open to the idea of other games existing and just have a generally more positive outlook on things. What are the things we can do to encourage positivity, rather than negativity?
Perhaps looking at it this way: NFL, NBA, MLB, Esports
Rather than: NFL, NBA, MLB, LoL, SC2, Dota 2
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As a caster, Axeltoss, I think you can do a lot to help -- can you cast SC2 to help the Dota2/LoL players follow the game better?
Likewise, can the Dota2/LoL casters help me watch them? I have the same daunting feeling you mention that I have no idea what is going on when trying to watch the best playing those games. I have even played them, but following the pro game is like trying to jump from bronze to GM in understanding, it's just a different game.
As mainly an SC2 player, I might be biased but I think we're most fun to watch. But if there was a caster who helped me capture the excitement and understanding of the MOBA games, maybe I could watch those to.
At the same time, I think it is very hard to just drop in and watch SC2 if you don't know the game really well. Many of my bronze league level friends have trouble following the cast. I don't think there's any chance I could get a non-player to watch even the best casters from WCS and be able to keep up at all.
Or is the depth of game knowledge in each title just too different to make it accessible to non-experts or across titles? If so, it's going to be hard to build a really big esports community.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On July 16 2013 03:12 grs wrote:
Is there a reason people who like Ice Hockey have to like Football? I don't think so. Why is there an urge to unite communities for different games? I like Starcraft, I like Dota and I like LoL. I find fighting games utterly stupid on the other hand. That does not mean I should go around and bash people that like fighting games, but it does also not mean I have to like fighting games, just because I like other games.
Esports yo, I guess it's the idea that we're all in the same boat, similar to action sports, for a long time they weren't considered real sports and now they are becoming more and more mainstream, as someone who is an avid follower of snowboarding, I also like to take interest in other action sports like skateboarding, mx, bmx etc. and I don't bash on them.
Edit: Not that you have to like both things, I'm just explaining a possible reason.
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On July 16 2013 03:35 ROOTAxeltoss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 03:14 Torte de Lini wrote:On July 16 2013 03:12 grs wrote:
Is there a reason people who like Ice Hockey have to like Football? I don't think so. Why is there an urge to unite communities for different games? I like Starcraft, I like Dota and I like LoL. I find fighting games utterly stupid on the other hand. That does not mean I should go around and bash people that like fighting games, but it does also not mean I have to like fighting games, just because I like other games. winner. There is no problem about communities. The real issue is some of the toxicity within the games and their communities. And the disproportion of interest from those at the top. In my opinion, the gesture is nice, but misplaced. I'm not certain how relevant this is. Perhaps it's more about once we get there we can bicker. Those examples you mentioned are already successful enough where it doesn't really matter that there might be animosity between them all. With how small esports is compared to those examples, I feel it's quite counter productive to show too much animosity towards other games. I'm not saying hold hands and play all the games, I'm saying be open to the idea of other games existing and just have a generally more positive outlook on things. What are the things we can do to encourage positivity, rather than negativity? Perhaps looking at it this way: NFL, NBA, MLB, Esports Rather than: NFL, NBA, MLB, LoL, SC2, Dota 2
Its not about animosity. You're missing the point he's making.
He's not going to bash other games, but he isn't going to support them either.
Esports isn't a charity, it'll never succeed like the way you're suggesting.
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On July 16 2013 03:35 ROOTAxeltoss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 03:14 Torte de Lini wrote:On July 16 2013 03:12 grs wrote:
Is there a reason people who like Ice Hockey have to like Football? I don't think so. Why is there an urge to unite communities for different games? I like Starcraft, I like Dota and I like LoL. I find fighting games utterly stupid on the other hand. That does not mean I should go around and bash people that like fighting games, but it does also not mean I have to like fighting games, just because I like other games. winner. There is no problem about communities. The real issue is some of the toxicity within the games and their communities. And the disproportion of interest from those at the top. In my opinion, the gesture is nice, but misplaced. I'm not certain how relevant this is. Perhaps it's more about once we get there we can bicker. Those examples you mentioned are already successful enough where it doesn't really matter that there might be animosity between them all. With how small esports is compared to those examples, I feel it's quite counter productive to show too much animosity towards other games. I'm not saying hold hands and play all the games, I'm saying be open to the idea of other games existing and just have a generally more positive outlook on things. What are the things we can do to encourage positivity, rather than negativity? Perhaps looking at it this way: NFL, NBA, MLB, Esports Rather than: NFL, NBA, MLB, LoL, SC2, Dota 2
You quoted the wrong guy lol
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On July 16 2013 03:35 ROOTAxeltoss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 03:14 Torte de Lini wrote:On July 16 2013 03:12 grs wrote:
Is there a reason people who like Ice Hockey have to like Football? I don't think so. Why is there an urge to unite communities for different games? I like Starcraft, I like Dota and I like LoL. I find fighting games utterly stupid on the other hand. That does not mean I should go around and bash people that like fighting games, but it does also not mean I have to like fighting games, just because I like other games. winner. There is no problem about communities. The real issue is some of the toxicity within the games and their communities. And the disproportion of interest from those at the top. In my opinion, the gesture is nice, but misplaced. I'm not certain how relevant this is. Perhaps it's more about once we get there we can bicker. Those examples you mentioned are already successful enough where it doesn't really matter that there might be animosity between them all. With how small esports is compared to those examples, I feel it's quite counter productive to show too much animosity towards other games. I'm not saying hold hands and play all the games, I'm saying be open to the idea of other games existing and just have a generally more positive outlook on things. What are the things we can do to encourage positivity, rather than negativity? Perhaps looking at it this way: NFL, NBA, MLB, Esports Rather than: NFL, NBA, MLB, LoL, SC2, Dota 2
I guess that is basically where we differ. I see no value in the abstract construct "esports". I see games I like to play, like to watch and which I am up to pay money for watching. The idea of esports as an ideal is a mystery to me.
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It is not up to the community to sell/promote a game. It is up to Blizzard and the Broadcasters. There's nothing wrong with spreading the word about something you like to friends, FB, Twitter etc, but this responsibility is not on the viewers/consumers/whatever. I really dislike this constant call for the community to do the work of others in the name of "esports". I agree that it is toxic to bash other games though. However, nothing wrong with saying Starcraft 2 is the best game out there competitively, and the #1 esport, because the gameplay should speak for itself. I also don't think the sc2 community should be constantly badgered to try other Esport titles.
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one of the biggest things the sc2 scene can do to encourage this is hopping down off it's high horse. in the past i called league a casual game, having not played it at all, and in a way it is, in that you can hit buttons and kill other bad people and have fun even if you dont know what's going on. but if you actually want to be any good at it there's a ton of knowledge and abilities you need that are very different from those required for sc2. and ive seen or talked to plenty of sc2 pros who play it, with varying levels of seriousness, and are stuck in bronze or silver. some skills transfer over and if you were actually good at sc2 you should have a good understanding of how to approach learning league, but theyre entirely different games and it's entirely possible to be great and one and suck at the other. plus league is the big kid on the playground now. it just seems kinda sad and petty to be sitting there with a quarter of their viewership saying "well at least our game takes skill"
besides broodwar is the only game that is actually hard
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On July 16 2013 03:47 IdrA wrote:
one of the biggest things the sc2 scene can do to encourage this is hopping down off it's high horse. in the past i called league a casual game, having not played it at all, and in a way it is, in that you can hit buttons and kill other bad people and have fun even if you dont know what's going on. but if you actually want to be any good at it there's a ton of knowledge and abilities you need that are very different from those required for sc2. and ive seen or talked to plenty of sc2 pros who play it, with varying levels of seriousness, and are stuck in bronze or silver. some skills transfer over and if you were actually good at sc2 you should have a good understanding of how to approach learning league, but theyre entirely different games and it's entirely possible to be great and one and suck at the other. plus league is the big kid on the playground now. it just seems kinda sad and petty to be sitting there with a quarter of their viewership saying "well at least our game takes skill"
besides broodwar is the only game that is actually hard
Funny how you quickly hop from one high horse to another between 2 paragraphs
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On July 16 2013 03:39 grs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 03:35 ROOTAxeltoss wrote:On July 16 2013 03:14 Torte de Lini wrote:On July 16 2013 03:12 grs wrote:
Is there a reason people who like Ice Hockey have to like Football? I don't think so. Why is there an urge to unite communities for different games? I like Starcraft, I like Dota and I like LoL. I find fighting games utterly stupid on the other hand. That does not mean I should go around and bash people that like fighting games, but it does also not mean I have to like fighting games, just because I like other games. winner. There is no problem about communities. The real issue is some of the toxicity within the games and their communities. And the disproportion of interest from those at the top. In my opinion, the gesture is nice, but misplaced. I'm not certain how relevant this is. Perhaps it's more about once we get there we can bicker. Those examples you mentioned are already successful enough where it doesn't really matter that there might be animosity between them all. With how small esports is compared to those examples, I feel it's quite counter productive to show too much animosity towards other games. I'm not saying hold hands and play all the games, I'm saying be open to the idea of other games existing and just have a generally more positive outlook on things. What are the things we can do to encourage positivity, rather than negativity? Perhaps looking at it this way: NFL, NBA, MLB, Esports Rather than: NFL, NBA, MLB, LoL, SC2, Dota 2 I guess that is basically where we differ. I see no value in the abstract construct "esports". I see games I like to play, like to watch and which I am up to pay money for watching. The idea of esports as an ideal is a mystery to me.
A part of this is just helping with exposure. Folks just getting into LoL (have you seen the numbers? a ridiculous amount) might be open to SC2 but just havn't heard of it or know about it or are simply too intimidated. Taking the steps to help educate these people could be huge for the growth of everyone.
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On July 16 2013 03:47 IdrA wrote:
one of the biggest things the sc2 scene can do to encourage this is hopping down off it's high horse. in the past i called league a casual game, having not played it at all, and in a way it is, in that you can hit buttons and kill other bad people and have fun even if you dont know what's going on. but if you actually want to be any good at it there's a ton of knowledge and abilities you need that are very different from those required for sc2. and ive seen or talked to plenty of sc2 pros who play it, with varying levels of seriousness, and are stuck in bronze or silver. some skills transfer over and if you were actually good at sc2 you should have a good understanding of how to approach learning league, but theyre entirely different games and it's entirely possible to be great and one and suck at the other. plus league is the big kid on the playground now. it just seems kinda sad and petty to be sitting there with a quarter of their viewership saying "well at least our game takes skill"
besides broodwar is the only game that is actually hard
I totally agree and the community could stand to get down off their high horse and stop losing their minds when LoL has an extra row of chairs at the next Dreamhack/MLG. It gets so old and takes the focus away from the matches and players.
Love the dig at the end Greg, never change.
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On July 16 2013 03:47 IdrA wrote:
one of the biggest things the sc2 scene can do to encourage this is hopping down off it's high horse. in the past i called league a casual game, having not played it at all, and in a way it is, in that you can hit buttons and kill other bad people and have fun even if you dont know what's going on. but if you actually want to be any good at it there's a ton of knowledge and abilities you need that are very different from those required for sc2. and ive seen or talked to plenty of sc2 pros who play it, with varying levels of seriousness, and are stuck in bronze or silver. some skills transfer over and if you were actually good at sc2 you should have a good understanding of how to approach learning league, but theyre entirely different games and it's entirely possible to be great and one and suck at the other. plus league is the big kid on the playground now. it just seems kinda sad and petty to be sitting there with a quarter of their viewership saying "well at least our game takes skill"
besides broodwar is the only game that is actually hard
That one last sentence, haha ;D
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On July 16 2013 03:49 ROOTAxeltoss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 03:39 grs wrote:On July 16 2013 03:35 ROOTAxeltoss wrote:On July 16 2013 03:14 Torte de Lini wrote:On July 16 2013 03:12 grs wrote:
Is there a reason people who like Ice Hockey have to like Football? I don't think so. Why is there an urge to unite communities for different games? I like Starcraft, I like Dota and I like LoL. I find fighting games utterly stupid on the other hand. That does not mean I should go around and bash people that like fighting games, but it does also not mean I have to like fighting games, just because I like other games. winner. There is no problem about communities. The real issue is some of the toxicity within the games and their communities. And the disproportion of interest from those at the top. In my opinion, the gesture is nice, but misplaced. I'm not certain how relevant this is. Perhaps it's more about once we get there we can bicker. Those examples you mentioned are already successful enough where it doesn't really matter that there might be animosity between them all. With how small esports is compared to those examples, I feel it's quite counter productive to show too much animosity towards other games. I'm not saying hold hands and play all the games, I'm saying be open to the idea of other games existing and just have a generally more positive outlook on things. What are the things we can do to encourage positivity, rather than negativity? Perhaps looking at it this way: NFL, NBA, MLB, Esports Rather than: NFL, NBA, MLB, LoL, SC2, Dota 2 I guess that is basically where we differ. I see no value in the abstract construct "esports". I see games I like to play, like to watch and which I am up to pay money for watching. The idea of esports as an ideal is a mystery to me. A part of this is just helping with exposure. Folks just getting into LoL (have you seen the numbers? a ridiculous amount) might be open to SC2 but just havn't heard of it or know about it or are simply too intimidated. Taking the steps to help educate these people could be huge for the growth of everyone.
Folks getting into LoL have paid nothing. They have nothing to lose. If they hate it, big deal. 0 dollars spent.
Starcraft 2 is completely different. It's different from other PC games, and its learning curve is extremely steep for those who play multi-player on the ladder. Add to that a $60 price-tag and suddenly, just getting into the game is an investment of more than just time.
We see people come in and out of League of Legends like the revolving door that it is. I don't want that for SC2. It's not a bandwagon and it's definitely not for everyone. It's better that way.
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EPT
