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I'm bio terran and i see the dilemna about hellbat.
In PvT the fact that you can add hellbats easily from factory reactor to deal with the most unskilled but efficient zealot archon templar is a very good thing because it gives us terran a way to deal with it efficiently
In TvT hellbat is a big problem because the balance between bio-biotank-mech that existed in wol is completely obliterated because now mech have the best harass ability / best drop on tanks ability / best positional force so it turns TvT into mech player will win unless he made major mistakes.
Blizzard is in a very bad position because if they nerf hellbat would dammage bio hellbat play in TvP and make it totally unused as a 'composition' unit because nobody plays mech either on TvP or TvZ
The only nerf i can think of is a decrease of dmg that will be fixed by the blue flame research.
They will probably do nothing as long as the top tournament equilibrium is balanced. No matter TvT is shit right now for blizzard one thing count --> there will be no matter what a Terran player advancing so don't need to balance mirrror.
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On June 30 2013 18:34 SSVnormandy wrote:
I'm bio terran and i see the dilemna about hellbat.
In PvT the fact that you can add hellbats easily from factory reactor to deal with the most unskilled but efficient zealot archon templar is a very good thing because it gives us terran a way to deal with it efficiently
In TvT hellbat is a big problem because the balance between bio-biotank-mech that existed in wol is completely obliterated because now mech have the best harass ability / best drop on tanks ability / best positional force so it turns TvT into mech player will win unless he made major mistakes.
Blizzard is in a very bad position because if they nerf hellbat would dammage bio hellbat play in TvP and make it totally unused as a 'composition' unit because nobody plays mech either on TvP or TvZ
This is the thing most people calling for nerfs don't seem to understand, forcing any kind of tech lab upgrade for hellbats pretty much immediately removes them from compositions that aren't mech. The unit in its current state is specifically designed to pack a decent punch while being easy to produce, no upgrades are necessary when you simply put a reactor on your factory and start producing your meatshields. Yet even with how easily they can be added to your army people still often prefer just to build more bio, mostly due to hellbats lacking upgrades and mobility.
This is especially true for TvP where you have absolutely no reason at any point of the game to get a tech lab on your factory. In TvZ there is usually a second factory because you need tunneling claws at some point, but hellbats are more of an early game timing unit in TvZ anyway, so I think people would just build more MMMM.
My biggest gripe with these suggested hellbat nerfs is that the end result will just be more bio in every match-up. TvP will look exactly like it did in WOL, TvZ will just be bio+mines. Maybe if the hellbat nerf came with a buff to tanks, we might see something besides more marine spam.
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To me TvT is all about early game aggression and multitasking into out positioning your opponent. Hellbat drops raise this skill ceiling a lot, compared to the WoL marine tank 1 hour games where players just turtle all game.
It is no coincidence that Flash and Innovation both have much more consistent TvT win rate now using a hellbat mech style. You also see that almost all Kespa pros can react to hellbat drops perfectly, but the reason why top players are still doing it is to take apm away from opponent and out multitask them.
Anything that raises the skill ceiling without affecting racial balance is only a good thing. Yes hellbat drops are OP in wood league, but it's fine at the top level. We've seen players like Taeja using standard marine hellion timing to absolutely destroy a hellbat drop build.
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Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
As to TvT Hellbats are fine, there are a lot of Terran Pros built a career out of dropping the other two races with impunity, most of them panic when dropped as they haven't a fucking clue on how to defend. Give it a few more months and i am sure they will adapt and learn to deal with it
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On June 30 2013 18:49 Bagi wrote:
This is the thing most people calling for nerfs don't seem to understand, forcing any kind of tech lab upgrade for hellbats pretty much immediately removes them from compositions that aren't mech.
This is wrong on so many levels. In TvZ there are many players who get the mine upgrade. It is not that hard to get an additiona factory with a techlab or to just switch the addons...
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On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote:
Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
As to TvT Hellbats are fine, there are a lot of Terran Pros built a career out of dropping the other two races with impunity, most of them panic when dropped as they haven't a fucking clue on how to defend. Give it a few more months and i am sure they will adapt and learn to deal with it
That's not how you should design a rts game. The goal is to have as much of the tech tree viable, ideally in all match ups to prevent staleness (every one going for the same strats). That's also why a single unit can't be too strong or otherwise every one has to go for that unit (strat). Designing a game like SC2 is a complicated task but it's not hard to see that the Hellbat (drop) is too strong. So, if you are Blizzard, you want to at least try to have both bio and mech to be viable choices (and combinations of both and air etc.). This is also clearly what they're trying to do.
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On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote:
Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
As to TvT Hellbats are fine, there are a lot of Terran Pros built a career out of dropping the other two races with impunity, most of them panic when dropped as they haven't a fucking clue on how to defend. Give it a few more months and i am sure they will adapt and learn to deal with it
Why do people think that "oohh ... action" is the only way to play a game? There *should be* differenty styles to play it ... and that "oh get back to Broodwar" comment really shows the ignorance.
Some people do prefer careful planning and strategy to mindlessly clicking here and there.
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United Kingdom12056 Posts
In TvT hellbat is a big problem because the balance between bio-biotank-mech that existed in wol is completely obliterated because now mech have the best harass ability / best drop on tanks ability / best positional force so it turns TvT into mech player will win unless he made major mistakes.
That's a good thing in my opinion because I still honestly don't understand why bio is allowed to be effective against mech in a frontal engagement. I'm sorry, but a pure marauder force shouldn't be able to beat a proper mech force and the stupid thing is, it still does. If you get caught out of position once with mech to just pure marauders then you get completely rolled over and lose the game instantly.
In TvT however outside of vs bio I think Hellion/Tank is actually better due to how good Blue Flame is against hellbats.
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Vatican City State431 Posts
David Kim what was beta for? Why do you even bother to add another stupid unit in the game? You wanted harassing gameplay you got harassing gameplay..Why the hell do you even bothered buffing the medivac? This guy doesn't know what he wants. People wanted buffed siege tanks and a good anti air mech unit, he added gimmicky units like mines and hellbats that will get nerfed in the future. He buffed reapers for god sake (aka the most useless and stupid unit in the entire game).
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On June 30 2013 19:26 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote:
Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
As to TvT Hellbats are fine, there are a lot of Terran Pros built a career out of dropping the other two races with impunity, most of them panic when dropped as they haven't a fucking clue on how to defend. Give it a few more months and i am sure they will adapt and learn to deal with it
Why do people think that "oohh ... action" is the only way to play a game? There *should be* differenty styles to play it ... and that "oh get back to Broodwar" comment really shows the ignorance. Some people do prefer careful planning and strategy to mindlessly clicking here and there.
Different playstyles should indeed be viable. You will get that, as soon as something else than swarmhost infestor corruptor spore/spinecrawler is viable lategame against protoss, and make hydralisk viable in most situations in all matchups like marines are.
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i don't know how any sane terran can call hellbat wars fun. it's just mindless button pressing that you repeat over and over again until you hit windfall.
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The hellbat is a cheap, gasless, non-tech-heavy, tanky aoe unit. I don't know of any other aoe unit that satisfies all those. I don't know how that's not bullshit.
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On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote:
Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
Actually with HotS they promised to make mech work in TvP so it seems like they still want mech to exist.
It's just that their failure in terran design during beta made mech completely reliant on a single broken unit.
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On June 30 2013 19:23 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 18:49 Bagi wrote:
This is the thing most people calling for nerfs don't seem to understand, forcing any kind of tech lab upgrade for hellbats pretty much immediately removes them from compositions that aren't mech. This is wrong on so many levels. In TvZ there are many players who get the mine upgrade. It is not that hard to get an additiona factory with a techlab or to just switch the addons...
I addressed this point if you read the rest of my post, mines do get upgraded but thats because they have more mid- and endgame viability in the MU. Even then terrans cant really afford the mine upgrade before 2-2 is researching. Getting another 150/150 for hellbats at the same time isn't worth it, especially since hellbats lose viability in the long run much more (you won't have upgrades for them - mines dont need upgrades, hellbats are also useless against ultras).
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Some people do prefer careful planning and strategy to mindlessly clicking here and there.
I love how people call apm intensive styles "mindless clicking" when they are just too slow to pull it off. I respect mech players, I don't see why you would need to say that about bio play...
In my opinion hellbats are still a needed unit for TvP. They are maybe a bit too strong, but without them the zealot/archon/storm styles with 4mn or so forges chronoed into 2/2 all in or super early 3/3 would be too hard to play against.
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I think going for blue flame upgrade is ok, but that means you need an armory and a factory with tech lab instead of reactor.
That will probably destroy hellbat drops completely. Maybe it would be better to make a separate blue flame hellbat upgrade and put it in the armory. They can fine tune the speed of hellbat drops by customizing price and research time of the upgrade without doing anything to the blue flame helions....
And as far as damage goes, I think lowering the red flame damage so it needs 1 additional shot to kill workers would be good enough.
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On June 30 2013 19:26 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 18:59 Topdoller wrote:
Why do people bang on about Terran wanting to go Mech so much. Blizzard design team look to favor Bio as its mobile and action packed so live with it or get out and go back to Broodwar
As to TvT Hellbats are fine, there are a lot of Terran Pros built a career out of dropping the other two races with impunity, most of them panic when dropped as they haven't a fucking clue on how to defend. Give it a few more months and i am sure they will adapt and learn to deal with it
Why do people think that "oohh ... action" is the only way to play a game? There *should be* differenty styles to play it ... and that "oh get back to Broodwar" comment really shows the ignorance. Some people do prefer careful planning and strategy to mindlessly clicking here and there.
We had that play style during the end of WoL and it was a snooze feast that almost killed the game with viewer counts dropping fast.
I got no interest in " careful planning and strategy", i dont want 10 mins of Sim City , then go to death ball then game over!!
And as to Broodwar i watch it still on a regular basis TSL, snipelot stream and just recently FirebatHero played a few games ( which was fricken amazing btw )
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United Kingdom12056 Posts
We had that play style during the end of WoL and it was a snooze feast that almost killed the game with viewer counts dropping fast.
I got no interest in " careful planning and strategy", i dont want 10 mins of Sim City , then go to death ball then game over!!
This is one of the most hyperbolic posts I've ever seen.
Mech doesn't have to be 10 minutes or sim city into deathball, mech if anything is one of the most harass based styles there are, but thanks to the tank being so weak it's impossible to really push unless you get either a huge advantage or your maxed.
The game is already 10 minutes of sim city into deathball into game over, have you seen PvT recently even against bio? I've not seen a PvT with constant action outside of maybe the terran completely picking the toss apart in forever since the optimal way to play the game as protoss is to get your maxxed army with all your AOE as bio is so damn versatile and strong that you can't really (outside of an all in) push out of your base before then as you'll get steamrolled.
Infestor Broodlord is nothing like mech, one considering that style was broken as hell as there were no real counters to it and two, terran don't have moveable static defenses and infinite spawnable energy cost units which made use of upgrades that made the style work to the point where it had no counter.
The game didn't have to be that way, but because even with it's bad mobility infestor broodlord could hold every thing with pure spines'/spores, it made agression impossible on the super narrow maps we had in WoL.
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