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On June 14 2013 00:57 Usernameffs wrote:
I like the idea of having hellbats cargoed like thors are. But thats a design change to, everyone knows what blizzard thinks about that. You can have a hellbat taking up 5 spaces in medivacs instead of 4 also good.
You want a 100 mineral 2 supply unit to take up 8 cargo space? That's honestly the silliest balance change I've ever read on team liquid and I've read quite a few.
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On June 14 2013 01:46 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 00:57 Usernameffs wrote:
I like the idea of having hellbats cargoed like thors are. But thats a design change to, everyone knows what blizzard thinks about that. You can have a hellbat taking up 5 spaces in medivacs instead of 4 also good. You want a 100 mineral 2 supply unit to take up 8 cargo space? That's honestly the silliest balance change I've ever read on team liquid and I've read quite a few.
I thought it was cute when I read it too, but don't be surprised if this is the type of change Blizzard ends up making. They can come up with some pretty stupid shit, like mechanical hellions transforming into biological hellbats. If we have to simply accept that, perhaps we're willing to accept hellbats that drop like thorships. Completely idiotic, but still a possibility that exists.
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Talking about realism is not best idea in sc2. Only one thing is important - gameplay. In every other aproach we will start thinking why marines are able to shoot down carrier(that is size of small city) that is 500meter above them.
At the end you can just name all modifiers as modifier1, modifier2... or rename them to bio, armor, small, big, psionic, transform... etc.
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On June 14 2013 01:02 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 00:36 Hypemeup wrote:On June 14 2013 00:24 xokati wrote:
You cant take "most levels" into account because almost all of the problems in lower leauges are just there because of bad play. Blizzard should not dumb the game down because some people cant do things the top pros can.
If they had used that design philosophy when making sc2 we would have a game with the complexity of Tic tac toe.
Its ok if you want get sophisticated tool to compete in narrow group of fans. But I doubt that such approach sc2 will make more popular between casuals players - spectators. So its matter if we want to have more or less spectators in sc2. Anyway i think we have completly different way of thinking about that and its offtopic so maybe enough?  The veiwership has been growing steadily, the current approach works. I don't understand this argument you folks are having. Blizzard has stated before that they work to maintain statistical balance at all levels of play. Take an explanation for the barracks before depot adjustment for example: Show nested quote +Q. There are opinions that the variety in choice of strategies for Terran have decreased due to the recent nerf
A. There were a lot of strategies terrans could use before scouting their opponent. We were planning to decrease the number of possible strategies because we felt they were having a negative effect, and the reaper happened to be problematic in team games so we adjusted the balance with a focus on reapers. In the case of barracks before depot, there were a lot of games that ended before it was even scouted. It didn't happen very often on the pro level, but it was becoming a problem in lower tier play. The main focus is the pro level, but our ultimate goal is for players of all levels to be able to play a fair and balanced game. Barracks first builds were too strong in that regard and created a lot of problems in low level play, which is why we made the adjustments.
I dont know what you are getting from that quote but what I read is that balance for pros is the #1 priority and the if it happens to balance out for the newbies as well that is a great bonus. The supply depo before rax change was made 4 months or so after the game was released as I recall and it was to deal with 5rax reaper which was a problem at the pro levels.
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dont understand why people say mech tvp is shit. i win most my games with it. ntm dudes like strelok use it to some extent pretty well. even mkp used it in gstl before and got some wins. not saying its the best, but its definitely not the worst, and definitely viable
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On June 13 2013 23:57 S:klogW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 23:49 xokati wrote:
Balancing for anything but the highest level would be completely fucking retarded. Bad players can fix their problems by getting better. If you dont balance for the highest level of play when trying to make an esports title you are doing it very wrong.
If you want a game where blizzard focuses on "making it fun for all levels of play" you can go play World of Warcraft, where they have consistently dumbed the game down since the end of The Burning Crusade.
Cannot agree with you. Every sport should be accesible for every level. Should give fun and pleasure. Why? Because then people watch it. If people will not find pleasure of gaming on that casual level then it will be never wide popular and it will remind nerdy and not well sponsored. Look at football and let think what makes this sport so popular and why people want to watch it. Compare this now with some sport that require alot of skill and compare amount of fans and popularity in TV. I hate to tell yuou this but he is actually right here
So he's using a sports metaphor here, and you're saying he's right? Sports are very similar to SC2, as both requires skill, dedication, perserverance, practice and strategy. However there is one thing that football/american football doesn't have: balance. We are having a balance discussion here. Since there are three separate races, there is a balance discussion. In football,you aren't going to lose the quarterback because the position is too "OP" (well think about it, he gets to throw the ball, run the ball, do pretty much everything that's allowed with the ball). The coaches and players are expected to learn to play against these established rules from a young level.
Futhermore, Middle school football teams have linemen, even though it seems pointless because a single big kid can just be "OP" and destroy the other team. This doesn't we we "ban" linemen in Middle School football. Stop enforcing balance on lower levels, and let the players learn to win. Practice to win vs just winning cz the game is easy are different feelings of accomplishment.
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On June 11 2013 23:51 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 21:42 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 11 2013 19:42 Rabiator wrote:On June 11 2013 19:15 Ghanburighan wrote:
Note that David Kim did not actually say that they will do anything. And I like this. I do not see a massive problem with hellbats, not even in TvT. This is because the days when Fantasy could hellbat drop all over the place are gone, and smart players know how to defend against them, it's just that it's difficult to do.
I like the fact that just dropping hellbats does nearly nothing when the defender pulls probes. It's only when someone like Innovation does it against a lesser opponent that they do massive damage. And that's what we want from harassment: a good skill-based scale of damage. In the end, TvT is currently incredibly technical with constant multi-harass and multi-defense. It's great and awe-inspiring to watch (sorry pro's if you don't like playing it).
As other's have said, TvX is harass-based, while ZvX and PvX are a lot more stale. Instead of removing the harass-based play, we should improve the harass-potential of the other races. Although, P still has unexplored harass-options which only Rain seems to utilize at the moment. It doesnt matter that he did not say anything about doing anything ... because they dont have to do anything even if he said something. The important part here is that the community says something ... quite a lot ... which should be a big warning sign to Browder and Kim that things arent as they should be. The fact that the community complains about something says Nothing about real problems. This community is whiny as anything. Remember when HOTS came out and everyone and their mother bitched about ZvT being impossible, and that T will win every tournament. Well, Zerg ended up taking MLG, Dreamhack and the GSL, i.e., the early premier tournaments. T has won IEM (where no Korean Z showed up), WCS Europe (hello Mvp) and WCS 1 (hello Innovation). And the win rates at the top are very much decent. I repeat, this community and this thread complains way too much. Look for facts, not public perception of affairs. You sound very biased The tournament a zerg won (MLG) One Zerg of all zergs could compete versus the terrans, the rest of the zergs HAD ZERO CHANCE! It was Life that could compete, and he did WIN, but damn did he fight like hell versus the terrans he met, jesus (hello life) I repeat, One zerg was in top8 at mlg
There were only 2 korean zerg in the tourney. the game was still new, and zerg was not nearly as powerful at first since people had to actually start using strategies that didnt involve the infestor. so if anything its not a big surprise that only 1 z made it to the top 8. if you look at the top 8, they were all korean. ntm, gsl code s a z won that too. the other zergs had zero chance not because z is up, but because the players just werent as good as the other crazy amazing great koreans that were in it. i wouldve been really surprised to see players like goswser, suppy, ret, killer, bly, even sen or stephano in the round of 8 with other players like flash, innovation, parting, rain, mc and bomber in this tourney. no offense to these players, they are definitely good, but the competition proved to be to strong. i would say leenock couldve made it, but unfortunately he faced innovation in the rd of 16. innovation is starting to seem like the top player right now, seeing as he has done things like only dropping 3 maps on the way to the code s finals. so trying to say because only 1 zerg made it to the round of 8 in the mlg makes zerg look weak is a stupid argument and wouldve looked way different say if we had players like roro, curious, symbol or soulkey. kinda funny actually there were little amounts of kespa players in it, and if there were im sure it wouldve been whole different story cause the kespa players are actually starting to show how great they really are.
I repeat, your argument is shit.
EDIT: ntm all the t were korean, except thorzain. and he got knocked out in the rd of 32 by killer.
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On June 14 2013 01:59 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 01:46 Grumbels wrote:On June 14 2013 00:57 Usernameffs wrote:
I like the idea of having hellbats cargoed like thors are. But thats a design change to, everyone knows what blizzard thinks about that. You can have a hellbat taking up 5 spaces in medivacs instead of 4 also good. You want a 100 mineral 2 supply unit to take up 8 cargo space? That's honestly the silliest balance change I've ever read on team liquid and I've read quite a few. I thought it was cute when I read it too, but don't be surprised if this is the type of change Blizzard ends up making. They can come up with some pretty stupid shit, like mechanical hellions transforming into biological hellbats. If we have to simply accept that, perhaps we're willing to accept hellbats that drop like thorships. Completely idiotic, but still a possibility that exists.
On June 14 2013 01:46 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 00:57 Usernameffs wrote:
I like the idea of having hellbats cargoed like thors are. But thats a design change to, everyone knows what blizzard thinks about that. You can have a hellbat taking up 5 spaces in medivacs instead of 4 also good. You want a 100 mineral 2 supply unit to take up 8 cargo space? That's honestly the silliest balance change I've ever read on team liquid and I've read quite a few.
Is it silly because you would rather see hellbats on the ground nerfed because you can't a-move lings/zealots anymore?
Cargo space has nothing to do with cost. They went from 4 hellbats to 2 hellbats per medivac (with no change to the cost), and did you have a problem with that? Of course not. I didn't see an outcry from community that 100 mineral 2 supply unit suddenly took up 100% more cargo space - it was welcomed in fact.
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It's ok for your 100 a-moving mineral unit to completely shut down the other races mineral units?
The hellbat is just overtuned I'm sorry, it should need upgrades to shut down 3/3 lings zealots, right now you can have 3/3/3 zealots vs 0/0 hellbats w/o medivac support and you're still getting rolled.
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The hellbat is a very simple unit, tanky, slow, lots of damage. It actually works well if tuned correctly. The only thing that would make this unit overpowered is not its initial design, but if it had the most mobility of nearly any unit in the game. Medivac boost gives the hellbat that advantage.
Lots of terran units do ridiculous damage, but they all (should) have counters. The marine does tons of damage and is ranged, but it is very fragile. The hellbat's main downside needs to stay its downside the whole game, being slow and kiteable.
Blizzard has done good so far, taking great care to change units little by little. It's obvious to most the hellbat needs changed, but how to do it without butchering the unit out of every matchup... is probably like quite a few have suggested:
Remove the ability for medivacs to boost when carrying heavy mech units such as hellbats and thors.
Harass should require some risk from the attacker, hellbat drops are already cheap, require little micro, and usually cause damage, whether probe kills or lost mining time.
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Listening to the latest Meta episode, Select, Illusion and theognis agreed that early Hellbat harassment would fade away with the Infernal Pre igniter change. And that's the reasoning for it. More investment and pushing it later in the game. Let's not forget that, excluding Hellbats, Terran has the most early harassment options like Widow Mines, Hellions, Banshees and Marines. So I agree with the change because Hellbat drops and Hellbats in general become more manageble outside the early game.
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On June 14 2013 01:59 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 01:46 Grumbels wrote:On June 14 2013 00:57 Usernameffs wrote:
I like the idea of having hellbats cargoed like thors are. But thats a design change to, everyone knows what blizzard thinks about that. You can have a hellbat taking up 5 spaces in medivacs instead of 4 also good. You want a 100 mineral 2 supply unit to take up 8 cargo space? That's honestly the silliest balance change I've ever read on team liquid and I've read quite a few. I thought it was cute when I read it too, but don't be surprised if this is the type of change Blizzard ends up making. They can come up with some pretty stupid shit, like mechanical hellions transforming into biological hellbats. If we have to simply accept that, perhaps we're willing to accept hellbats that drop like thorships. Completely idiotic, but still a possibility that exists.
They already said what they are looking to change... reduce the initial damage through the infernal igniter upgrade and/or fix the widow that terrans have where opponents are unable to have reasonable defenses ready. And that does not at all seem "stupid".
Fighting windmills, are we?
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On June 14 2013 10:08 Shiger wrote:
Listening to the latest Meta episode, Select, Illusion and theognis agreed that early Hellbat harassment would fade away with the Infernal Pre igniter change. And that's the reasoning for it. More investment and pushing it later in the game. Let's not forget that, excluding Hellbats, Terran has the most early harassment options like Widow Mines, Hellions, Banshees and Marines. So I agree with the change because Hellbat drops and Hellbats in general become more manageble outside the early game.
Sorry I wasn't going to get into this conversation but when you say things like, "Let's not forget that, excluding Hellbats, Terran has the most early harassment options like Widow Mines, Hellions, Banshees and Marines." I cant help but laugh. This isn't WoL anymore! Maybe you missed the fact early Banshee against Toss is utterly worthless early game with MSC and the fact you don't need a Evo Chamber to put up spores against Widow Mines and Banshee harassement. You might as well say "lets not forget Terran has the most all-in options." Any monkey can pull workers away for a WM drop. The only thing messing up this game is TvT and the medic boost with the Hellbats. Take the speed out for mech loads and I think the problem would be solved. The "nerf stick" comes way to fast for Terran; especially, when you have Zergs still dominating at the high level. It is such a double standard with Blizzard when they hear the community whine - B/L infestor - everyone agreed was OP but they only acknolwedged it 8 months later when WoL was coming to an end. Versus one month of Hellbat drops and "Opps, I guess we need to nerf." We all know Blizzard hates admit to mistakes so if they decide to fuck Hellbats up like this, it is unlikely they will never roll it back (just like transformation).
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On June 14 2013 09:41 Jevity wrote:
The hellbat is a very simple unit, tanky, slow, lots of damage. It actually works well if tuned correctly. The only thing that would make this unit overpowered is not its initial design, but if it had the most mobility of nearly any unit in the game. Medivac boost gives the hellbat that advantage.
Lots of terran units do ridiculous damage, but they all (should) have counters. The marine does tons of damage and is ranged, but it is very fragile. The hellbat's main downside needs to stay its downside the whole game, being slow and kiteable.
Blizzard has done good so far, taking great care to change units little by little. It's obvious to most the hellbat needs changed, but how to do it without butchering the unit out of every matchup... is probably like quite a few have suggested:
Remove the ability for medivacs to boost when carrying heavy mech units such as hellbats and thors.
Harass should require some risk from the attacker, hellbat drops are already cheap, require little micro, and usually cause damage, whether probe kills or lost mining time.
Couldn't agree with you more. Stops the mobility of Hellbats and makes it more risky to drop, while also leaving mech timings untouched.
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On June 14 2013 09:41 Jevity wrote:
The hellbat is a very simple unit, tanky, slow, lots of damage. It actually works well if tuned correctly. The only thing that would make this unit overpowered is not its initial design, but if it had the most mobility of nearly any unit in the game. Medivac boost gives the hellbat that advantage.
Lots of terran units do ridiculous damage, but they all (should) have counters. The marine does tons of damage and is ranged, but it is very fragile. The hellbat's main downside needs to stay its downside the whole game, being slow and kiteable.
Blizzard has done good so far, taking great care to change units little by little. It's obvious to most the hellbat needs changed, but how to do it without butchering the unit out of every matchup... is probably like quite a few have suggested:
Remove the ability for medivacs to boost when carrying heavy mech units such as hellbats and thors.
Harass should require some risk from the attacker, hellbat drops are already cheap, require little micro, and usually cause damage, whether probe kills or lost mining time.
Nice post, very intelligent. I like your suggestion
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On June 14 2013 09:41 Jevity wrote:
The hellbat is a very simple unit, tanky, slow, lots of damage. It actually works well if tuned correctly. The only thing that would make this unit overpowered is not its initial design, but if it had the most mobility of nearly any unit in the game. Medivac boost gives the hellbat that advantage.
Lots of terran units do ridiculous damage, but they all (should) have counters. The marine does tons of damage and is ranged, but it is very fragile. The hellbat's main downside needs to stay its downside the whole game, being slow and kiteable.
Blizzard has done good so far, taking great care to change units little by little. It's obvious to most the hellbat needs changed, but how to do it without butchering the unit out of every matchup... is probably like quite a few have suggested:
Remove the ability for medivacs to boost when carrying heavy mech units such as hellbats and thors.
Harass should require some risk from the attacker, hellbat drops are already cheap, require little micro, and usually cause damage, whether probe kills or lost mining time.
Yep ...
There is a (pen-and-paper) roleplaying game called "Champions" where you can buy your abilities with points and can get extra points for taking disadvantages (like weakness to Kryptonite or so on) and they have a "core rule" for judging the point value of such a disadvantage: "A disadvantage which isnt really a disadvantage isnt a disadvantage." You get no points for "weakness to Kryptonite" if there is hardly any of the stuff around and the medivac is too easy to get to neutralize the "slow movement disadvantage". Adding the "is healed by the Medivac" on top of that really is the icing on the cake which makes the Hellbat really powerful.
I hope Blizzard will learn to design better units, but then they havent shown any promise of that with HotS yet AND they fail to look into the "critical numbers" and "deathball" problems too. Things really look grim.
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Hellbats drops give you 100% benefit. Even when they will make 0 damage potential lose force you to pull back workers till drop is cleared. Even 10-15 sec of mining time is more than drop cost(minerals/cost, i calculate that medivac may escape, onlt 200 minerals are sacriviced) and this thing is buying terrran time, keep enemy in base, allow save expand. And potential 2-3 base drops ( just point every dropship drop location in each base and shift click escape route after drop, then at the same time use burners) give high chance that in one or more mineral lines enemy will not be able to pull back probes(3 separate locations, alot of multitasking, terran may even make little push 5 seconds before dropships will be spoted on front line and pull back). Then lost will be alot higher.
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On June 14 2013 05:56 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 01:46 Grumbels wrote:On June 14 2013 00:57 Usernameffs wrote:
I like the idea of having hellbats cargoed like thors are. But thats a design change to, everyone knows what blizzard thinks about that. You can have a hellbat taking up 5 spaces in medivacs instead of 4 also good. You want a 100 mineral 2 supply unit to take up 8 cargo space? That's honestly the silliest balance change I've ever read on team liquid and I've read quite a few. Is it silly because you would rather see hellbats on the ground nerfed because you can't a-move lings/zealots anymore? Cargo space has nothing to do with cost. They went from 4 hellbats to 2 hellbats per medivac (with no change to the cost), and did you have a problem with that? Of course not. I didn't see an outcry from community that 100 mineral 2 supply unit suddenly took up 100% more cargo space - it was welcomed in fact.
?? There was at least some outcry from the community (several threads on reddit complaining about confusing rules, a lot of posts on TL, discussion on shows like SotG, ItG). And cargo space has to do with cost, or at least supply, since just about all units require just as much cargo space as their rounded up supply, with only a few exceptions. And I did have a problem with the initial cargo change. And your assumption that I'm upset that I can't a-move zerglings anymore is just a personal attack.
So everything you said was wrong, congrats.
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On June 14 2013 05:56 plogamer wrote:
Is it silly because you would rather see hellbats on the ground nerfed because you can't a-move lings/zealots anymore?
You never could amove zerglings against Terran, because no matter what composition he uses, if it is any good it rapes zerglings - both mineral dump units PREhellbat (marines and hellions) raped zerglings already.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On June 14 2013 06:09 sibs wrote:
It's ok for your 100 a-moving mineral unit to completely shut down the other races mineral units?
The hellbat is just overtuned I'm sorry, it should need upgrades to shut down 3/3 lings zealots, right now you can have 3/3/3 zealots vs 0/0 hellbats w/o medivac support and you're still getting rolled.
Why do you call it a 100 a-moving mineral unit, when that's exactly what zealots are but worse?
I can't even begin to count the games I've lost mech TvP since he kills all my hellbats then just warps in 20 zealots and kills the entire rest of my army.
There's a reason why hellbats need to be strongf.
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