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ETisME
12702 Posts
On June 13 2013 16:21 plogamer wrote: It makes sense to nerf hellbat drops when hellbat drops are seen as the problem. Your suggestion is to straight up nerf hellbats. Garbage post, man, seriously. like they are gonna nerf the medivac speed. what else are they gonna nerf? | ||
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Lorch
Germany3691 Posts
On June 13 2013 23:49 xokati wrote: Cannot agree with you. Every sport should be accesible for every level. Should give fun and pleasure. Why? Because then people watch it. If people will not find pleasure of gaming on that casual level then it will be never wide popular and it will remind nerdy and not well sponsored. Look at football and let think what makes this sport so popular and why people want to watch it. Compare this now with some sport that require alot of skill and compare amount of fans and popularity in TV. I think you completly don't understand the point here. If you would balance the game for the lowest level it would be completly imba on the highest level. On top of that if you loose any game before like diamond level there is a 99% chance you lost that because you messed something up hard and not because of imbalance. So there is no point balancing for lower levels as there are pretty much no games being lost on low levels due to imbalance. | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On June 13 2013 23:49 xokati wrote: Cannot agree with you. Every sport should be accesible for every level. Should give fun and pleasure. Why? Because then people watch it. If people will not find pleasure of gaming on that casual level then it will be never wide popular and it will remind nerdy and not well sponsored. Look at football and let think what makes this sport so popular and why people want to watch it. Compare this now with some sport that require alot of skill and compare amount of fans and popularity in TV. American Football is all but accesible but remains one of the most popluar sports in the US. Also looking at activity levels on Bnet in hots compared to WoL tells me that more people overall enjoy HoTS, and most of those people are horrible at the game. I dont think hellbat drops is that big of an issue when talking about these peoples enjoyment. Also the game is developed to be an esports title, balancing for scrubs would ruin the competitive scene. Lower level players dont lose games because of imbalance, they lose because they fucked up in a 100 diffrent ways, balancing for that would be very dumb. | ||
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S:klogW
Austria657 Posts
On June 13 2013 23:49 xokati wrote: Cannot agree with you. Every sport should be accesible for every level. Should give fun and pleasure. Why? Because then people watch it. If people will not find pleasure of gaming on that casual level then it will be never wide popular and it will remind nerdy and not well sponsored. Look at football and let think what makes this sport so popular and why people want to watch it. Compare this now with some sport that require alot of skill and compare amount of fans and popularity in TV. I hate to tell yuou this but he is actually right here | ||
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xokati
Poland33 Posts
On June 13 2013 23:51 Lorch wrote: I think you completly don't understand the point here. If you would balance the game for the lowest level it would be completly imba on the highest level. On top of that if you loose any game before like diamond level there is a 99% chance you lost that because you messed something up hard and not because of imbalance. So there is no point balancing for lower levels as there are pretty much no games being lost on low levels due to imbalance. My point its should be balanced by taking in account most of levels. Like in average hands such units give you standard posibilities but in pro gamer hands new possibilities apear. Then you face situations when casual player watch game(because he plays game, because it is fun for him at his level) and see that you have used X unit but doing alot more and he thinks "holly cow! i didnt know its possible, that crazy". I think that statement "easy to learn, hard to master" is best. Like you can kick ball straight but Ronaldo is doing magic with ball. | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On June 13 2013 23:59 xokati wrote: My point its should be balanced by taking in account most of levels. Like in average hands such units give you standard posibilities but in pro gamer hands new possibilities apear. Then you face situations when casual player watch game(because he plays game, because it is fun for him at his level) and see that you have used X unit but doing alot more and he thinks "holly cow! i didnt know its possible, that crazy". I think that statement "easy to learn, hard to master" is best. Like you can kick ball straight but Ronaldo is doing magic with ball. You cant take "most levels" into account because almost all of the problems in lower leauges are just there because of bad play. Blizzard should not dumb the game down because some people cant do things the top pros can. If they had used that design philosophy when making sc2 we would have a game with the complexity of Tic tac toe. | ||
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c0ldfusion
United States8293 Posts
On June 13 2013 23:56 Hypemeup wrote: American Football is all but accesible but remains one of the most popluar sports in the US. Also looking at activity levels on Bnet in hots compared to WoL tells me that more people overall enjoy HoTS, and most of those people are horrible at the game. I dont think hellbat drops is that big of an issue when talking about these peoples enjoyment. Also the game is developed to be an esports title, balancing for scrubs would ruin the competitive scene. Lower level players dont lose games because of imbalance, they lose because they fucked up in a 100 diffrent ways, balancing for that would be very dumb. Agreed, American football is less accessible than almost every other sport. And just to add, it isn't one of the most popular sports here. It's actually _the_ most popular spectator sport here, by a massive margin. | ||
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xokati
Poland33 Posts
You cant take "most levels" into account because almost all of the problems in lower leauges are just there because of bad play. Blizzard should not dumb the game down because some people cant do things the top pros can. If they had used that design philosophy when making sc2 we would have a game with the complexity of Tic tac toe. Its ok if you want get sophisticated tool to compete in narrow group of fans. But I doubt that such approach sc2 will make more popular between casuals players - spectators. So its matter if we want to have more or less spectators in sc2. Anyway i think we have completly different way of thinking about that and its offtopic so maybe enough?  | ||
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Lorch
Germany3691 Posts
On June 14 2013 00:02 Hypemeup wrote: You cant take "most levels" into account because almost all of the problems in lower leauges are just there because of bad play. Blizzard should not dumb the game down because some people cant do things the top pros can. If they had used that design philosophy when making sc2 we would have a game with the complexity of Tic tac toe. No offense but it's not like they didn't dumb it down a lot(auto mine, mbs/mus, smart casting etc. pp.), but lets not go down that road. I don't think blizz philosophie should be discussed as they went down the way of primarily focusing on the pro level anyways. @xokati: Spectators =/= players, this isn't lol. The beauty of starcraft is that you don't need to play it to have fun watching it, and I'd much rather have a skillfull game with fewer active players than a super easy game with lots of player, especially since it shouldn't affect spectator numbers anyways. | ||
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Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
On June 13 2013 23:57 S:klogW wrote: I hate to tell yuou this but he is actually right here Balancing for the scrubs will make the game boring on every level you would not increase the size of the goal ten times so it would be easier for the bad football players to score. | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On June 14 2013 00:24 xokati wrote: Its ok if you want get sophisticated tool to compete in narrow group of fans. But I doubt that such approach sc2 will make more popular between casuals players - spectators. So its matter if we want to have more or less spectators in sc2. Anyway i think we have completly different way of thinking about that and its offtopic so maybe enough? The veiwership has been growing steadily, the current approach works. | ||
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Usernameffs
Sweden107 Posts
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On June 13 2013 23:51 ETisME wrote: like they are gonna nerf the medivac speed. what else are they gonna nerf? A few people have suggested nerfing hellbat drops by increasing the cargo size or disabling boost when carrying hellbats, etc. On June 13 2013 23:41 Lorch wrote: Please what? Hellbat drops are completly broken, like completly, there is literally no other way to open tvt than hellbat drops, that is so fundamentally broken that they have to nerf it. Now hellbats themselves are not entirely broken, they are just very poorly designed and just because drops are a bigger issue does not mean that hellbats themselves are fine. Now rather than Orangered you are the one with the garbage post here. Unless you have an agenda of a-moving all Terrans with mass chargelots, I don't see why you want to change the hellbats themselves. Your belief is that hellbats are broken. And yet, the overwhelming outcry from the community is towards the drops. See the title of the thread: It specifically mentions hellbat drops. So you're going off topic. | ||
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Usernameffs
Sweden107 Posts
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On June 14 2013 00:57 Usernameffs wrote: I like the idea of having hellbats cargoed like thors are. But thats a design change to, everyone knows what blizzard thinks about that. They already did increase the cargo size of hellbats because it was insane in TvT when you could drop 4 hellbats. | ||
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urashimakt
United States1591 Posts
On June 14 2013 00:36 Hypemeup wrote: The veiwership has been growing steadily, the current approach works. I don't understand this argument you folks are having. Blizzard has stated before that they work to maintain statistical balance at all levels of play. Take an explanation for the barracks before depot adjustment for example: Q. There are opinions that the variety in choice of strategies for Terran have decreased due to the recent nerf A. There were a lot of strategies terrans could use before scouting their opponent. We were planning to decrease the number of possible strategies because we felt they were having a negative effect, and the reaper happened to be problematic in team games so we adjusted the balance with a focus on reapers. In the case of barracks before depot, there were a lot of games that ended before it was even scouted. It didn't happen very often on the pro level, but it was becoming a problem in lower tier play. The main focus is the pro level, but our ultimate goal is for players of all levels to be able to play a fair and balanced game. Barracks first builds were too strong in that regard and created a lot of problems in low level play, which is why we made the adjustments. | ||
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Usernameffs
Sweden107 Posts
On June 14 2013 00:59 plogamer wrote: They already did increase the cargo size of hellbats because it was insane in TvT when you could drop 4 hellbats. Iknow but i was thinking they would carry them like thors to. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On June 14 2013 01:02 urashimakt wrote: I don't understand this argument you folks are having. Blizzard has stated before that they work to maintain statistical balance at all levels of play. Take an explanation for the barracks before depot adjustment for example: Yes, but balancing at all levels is very tricky when you have such a whiny community. I think that I was most frustrated with the game when I played WoL at my personal best (solid EU diamond). I was so frustrated about losing my army to those op storms, op collosi, op banes, op zerglings pouncing on my army out of nowhere. Then I switched to random and that was the moment, when I found out that my HTs are EMPed before they storm, my collosi are sniped before they do anything and that my banelings are kited, killed or connect inefficiently vs well-split bio. I feel that very few players try to play the other races at their "lower" level and go for the insta-QQ instead. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
If the problem is the cost of the risk (300 min. 100g) vs the damage potential then perhaps it would be wise to add a gas cost to each hellbat (125min 25g a pop should do it), so that it actually makes sense to research the transformation ability. This would soften the economic impact of drops by pushing the timing later in the early game and requiring more damage to be done by the dropping player. Maybe if hellbats weren't biological units, capable of being healed by the same medivac that drops them, they would be less cost efficient without unnecessary nerfs. Perhaps some sort of change to the attack animation would help (since killing everything around the unit appears to be a side effect of having a circular attack). TvT is a weird matchup to bring up (as mirrors usually are) considering both players are capable of making hellbats. I'd have thought that TvP was more of an issue, because Protoss has to simultaneously prepare for widowmines or hellbats, and not preparing for widowmines can be much wose. Defending against hellbats in TvZ is simple, so, no issue there. EDIT: Kind of a dumb question, but are hellbats biological for the sole purpose of being countered by archons? This is the only explanation that I can come up with other than an intended synergy with medivacs (which seems really stupid for a mechanical unit to have). | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
On June 14 2013 00:47 Usernameffs wrote: Why do they have to do more dmg then a hellion? It still is a tankier version of the hellion plus if they change that hellions will play a bigger role to. Either that or remove the healing. They do more damage because their range is shit, they're slow, and can be kited by everything. That's how they ended up being dropped on top of things in the first place - they have trouble being useful when used any other way because they're so shit. | ||
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