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[QUOTE]On June 13 2013 02:18 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 13 2013 01:56 Zax19 wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 13 2013 01:30 scypio wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 13 2013 01:11 Usernameffs wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 13 2013 00:23 scypio wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 13 2013 00:19 Sissors wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 12 2013 22:32 Zax19 wrote:
As I said several times before, it's the obvious fix...
[url=http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1edwcu/meta_episode_4_vod_idra_catz_iaguz_and_artosis/c9zj53c]http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1edwcu/meta_episode_4_vod_idra_catz_iaguz_and_artosis/c9zj53c[/url][/QUOTE]
Yeah in that case just remove them from the game, better solution than nerfing it into complete crap, just because one of them might need a minor nerf. [/QUOTE]
Both Protoss and Zerg have insane defense options (in addition to existing solutions):
P) FF box hellbats while splitting probes while warping in.
Z) two spare queens to focus down medivacs and transfuse each other for "infinite health"
If anything my recommendation is that static defenses (including bunker) have improved AI that focus down drop ships FIRST.
[/QUOTE]
I´m sorry but when do you have two queens with maxed energy when an early hellbat drop happens? And two queens wont shot down the medivac fast enough and it takes a second to roast half of your opponents drones. Even if they are running away you can boost your medivac on top of them and losing the medivac doesn´t even matter.
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I agree that hellbat drops are a problem BUT only by like 40 seconds...
top zergs (soulkey vs innovation) have shown u can shut down HBdrop and take 0 damage especially with overlord scout..
Toss has nexus cannon even phoenix openers (jangbi vs flash) if ur into that 
If terran does a FE then its a very tight line to get WM or turrets or vikes to completely shut down a fast double drop...
If blizz can find a way to delay drops enough for another round of units or static D every race will have a better opportunity to both punish (pre-emptive or counter attack) and defend HB drops. I like the idea of needing the blue flame upg... this would lend itself to blue flame openers then getting the transform upgrade (which has almost been removed from the game)... but i think a compromise might be to take out the armory requirement...
There is no easy answer to the problem that is the hellbat, but HOTS is so fun because harras is so strong: mutas, oracles Medevac boost + WM or HB. Medevac boost instantly made every Tv MU more fun to play and watch and blizz will NOT change it. so try and find a solution to HB!
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On June 13 2013 03:40 Doc Brawler wrote:I agree that hellbat drops are a problem BUT only by like 40 seconds... top zergs (soulkey vs innovation) have shown u can shut down HBdrop and take 0 damage especially with overlord scout.. Toss has nexus cannon even phoenix openers (jangbi vs flash) if ur into that If terran does a FE then its a very tight line to get WM or turrets or vikes to completely shut down a fast double drop... If blizz can find a way to delay drops enough for another round of units or static D every race will have a better opportunity to both punish (pre-emptive or counter attack) and defend HB drops. I like the idea of needing the blue flame upg... this would lend itself to blue flame openers then getting the transform upgrade (which has almost been removed from the game)... but i think a compromise might be to take out the armory requirement... There is no easy answer to the problem that is the hellbat, but HOTS is so fun because harras is so strong: mutas, oracles Medevac boost + WM or HB. Medevac boost instantly made every Tv MU more fun to play and watch and blizz will NOT change it. so try and find a solution to HB!
I agree that the new harras options make the game more fun but hellbats just are plain boring and they make the experience worse for the viewer.
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What is going on with that post at the top of the page? Yucky.
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On June 13 2013 03:40 Doc Brawler wrote:I agree that hellbat drops are a problem BUT only by like 40 seconds... top zergs (soulkey vs innovation) have shown u can shut down HBdrop and take 0 damage especially with overlord scout.. Toss has nexus cannon even phoenix openers (jangbi vs flash) if ur into that If terran does a FE then its a very tight line to get WM or turrets or vikes to completely shut down a fast double drop... If blizz can find a way to delay drops enough for another round of units or static D every race will have a better opportunity to both punish (pre-emptive or counter attack) and defend HB drops. I like the idea of needing the blue flame upg... this would lend itself to blue flame openers then getting the transform upgrade (which has almost been removed from the game)... but i think a compromise might be to take out the armory requirement... There is no easy answer to the problem that is the hellbat, but HOTS is so fun because harras is so strong: mutas, oracles Medevac boost + WM or HB. Medevac boost instantly made every Tv MU more fun to play and watch and blizz will NOT change it. so try and find a solution to HB!
"Top Zergs" DO NOT MATTER if the strategy is creating problems for lower level players. Honestly people (and Blizzard) should get rid of the notion that "if Soulkey or Innovation can do X against super strong unit Y the game is fine". The game has to be playable AND BE FUN for all levels of play and thus balancing for progamers is seriously stupid.
Oh and the biggest problem is TvT, because two Terrans dropping each other is silly and boring to watch because neither will have the forces to defend and thus we will have a lot of roasted SCVs without any engagement at all ...
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bla bla bla . So take away the booster from the medivac when they carry hellbaths, thors and thanks. they're to heavyfor the mvac to boost. For now they should test this, and then if the situation in tvt persists maybe change something else.
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On June 13 2013 04:36 gavrila87 wrote:
bla bla bla . So take away the booster from the medivac when they carry hellbaths, thors and thanks. they're to heavyfor the mvac to boost. For now they should test this, and then if the situation in tvt persists maybe change something else.
Ahh ... that is a smart solution, but it will take some convincing because the booster was one of the very few things which Terrans got in HotS. How do you justify a full price addon if your race doesnt really get much? Thats why they are not removing the silly stuff they added with the expansion (like the Mutalisk buffs to speed and regen for example) and instead add seriously silly "solutions" instead.
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Incoming Planetary Orbital :D
err
Orbital Fortress sounds better
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On June 13 2013 04:36 gavrila87 wrote:
bla bla bla . So take away the booster from the medivac when they carry hellbaths, thors and thanks. they're to heavyfor the mvac to boost. For now they should test this, and then if the situation in tvt persists maybe change something else.
Such changes are imo way too random and needlessly complicate the game.
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On June 13 2013 04:36 gavrila87 wrote:
bla bla bla . So take away the booster from the medivac when they carry hellbaths, thors and thanks. they're to heavyfor the mvac to boost. For now they should test this, and then if the situation in tvt persists maybe change something else.
i like this idea over damage changes or build/research time changes
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It doesnt make sense to remove boost in relation to cargo. Just give Hellbats and additional gas requirement and this is fixed
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On June 13 2013 04:31 Rabiator wrote:
["Top Zergs" DO NOT MATTER if the strategy is creating problems for lower level players. Honestly people (and Blizzard) should get rid of the notion that "if Soulkey or Innovation can do X against super strong unit Y the game is fine". The game has to be playable AND BE FUN for all levels of play and thus balancing for progamers is seriously stupid.
Oh and the biggest problem is TvT, because two Terrans dropping each other is silly and boring to watch because neither will have the forces to defend and thus we will have a lot of roasted SCVs without any engagement at all ...
First it makes only sense to balance the game for top-level players. IMHO. If they start balancing for lower leagues (or 2v2, 3v3 for that matter) they can kiss e-sports goodbye. Secondly do we have any statistics hellbats are creating a balance problem at lower leagues? Not anecdotae, statistics. Do we?
I fully agree with the "silly and boring to watch" part and hope changes are coming. But mostly for the sake of viewability - if that's a word - and less for balance.
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On June 13 2013 15:25 Orangered wrote:
It doesnt make sense to remove boost in relation to cargo. Just give Hellbats and additional gas requirement and this is fixed
It makes sense to nerf hellbat drops when hellbat drops are seen as the problem. Your suggestion is to straight up nerf hellbats. Garbage post, man, seriously.
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On June 13 2013 16:07 Aiobhill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 04:31 Rabiator wrote:
["Top Zergs" DO NOT MATTER if the strategy is creating problems for lower level players. Honestly people (and Blizzard) should get rid of the notion that "if Soulkey or Innovation can do X against super strong unit Y the game is fine". The game has to be playable AND BE FUN for all levels of play and thus balancing for progamers is seriously stupid.
Oh and the biggest problem is TvT, because two Terrans dropping each other is silly and boring to watch because neither will have the forces to defend and thus we will have a lot of roasted SCVs without any engagement at all ... First it makes only sense to balance the game for top-level players. IMHO. If they start balancing for lower leagues (or 2v2, 3v3 for that matter) they can kiss e-sports goodbye. Secondly do we have any statistics hellbats are creating a balance problem at lower leagues? Not anecdotae, statistics. Do we? I fully agree with the "silly and boring to watch" part and hope changes are coming. But mostly for the sake of viewability - if that's a word - and less for balance.
As gold/plat 40 apm toss player i may say that people at this level dont use hellbats at all. No drops, no mech play.
All terrans plays MMM+vikings, sometimes use few mines, that`s all.
What annoys people at golden/plat level are strong toss allins executed from sheet of paper, if apear WM(while at this level people lack of multitasking and lost alot of units on random mines), vrays and muta ball play.
Oracle is dead at this level(everyone make 1 static defense per mineral line.
So summarizing at casual level hellbats are not a problem, people didnt discovered them yet.
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On June 12 2013 19:47 TheBorg wrote:
Hellbat drops right now are as strong as when BoxeR figured out Blue Flame Hellion-openings: there was virtually no risk to trying it and the reward could be an instant win.
The problem with Hellbat drops isn't that they occur but when they occur: the earliest possible time would be between 8 and 9 minutes (depending on the size of the map). If that could be delayed by a minute or two, then the defender would at least have the opportunity to set up some sort of defense; if he doesn't then that's his own fault.
So here's my proposed fix: Hellbats start out as pure Mechanical (so no Bio-Mech hybrid). Then, get rid of the Transformation Servos upgrade - that upgrade has never been used and will never be used in pro play - and instead, change it to Hellbat-healing (call it "Organic Operator" or something) which adds Biological to all Hellbats.
Like this, it gives the Terran a tactical choice that has real consequences: do I execute the drop as quickly as possible but run the risk of not doing the damage I need it to do? Or do I wait to research Hellbat-healing, so that if I get in I can do the damage that I need to do, but run the risk of not being able to get in anymore (albeit with a more smooth transition to Bio-Mech): High risk/reward Hellbat drops @ 8-9 minutes vs. safer Hellbat drops @ 10-11 minutes.
This idea is so... GOOD!!!! It would be fun if it benefits ground viking as well! (meh wouldn't happen)
Anyway, I think that is still early though. The point of nerf dmg I thought was an attempt to delay hellbat's effectiveness (not saying that is perfect solution)
And some minor point, if they remove transformantion upgrade, would it be better if we remove hellbat from factory?
So the players can simply make hellions and transform them! (and potential for more mech units in LoV!)
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On June 13 2013 04:36 gavrila87 wrote:
bla bla bla . So take away the booster from the medivac when they carry hellbaths, thors and thanks. they're to heavyfor the mvac to boost. For now they should test this, and then if the situation in tvt persists maybe change something else.
This makes no sense... after all the hellbat is light, it cannot be heavy at the same time :D
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On June 13 2013 04:31 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 03:40 Doc Brawler wrote:I agree that hellbat drops are a problem BUT only by like 40 seconds... top zergs (soulkey vs innovation) have shown u can shut down HBdrop and take 0 damage especially with overlord scout.. Toss has nexus cannon even phoenix openers (jangbi vs flash) if ur into that If terran does a FE then its a very tight line to get WM or turrets or vikes to completely shut down a fast double drop... If blizz can find a way to delay drops enough for another round of units or static D every race will have a better opportunity to both punish (pre-emptive or counter attack) and defend HB drops. I like the idea of needing the blue flame upg... this would lend itself to blue flame openers then getting the transform upgrade (which has almost been removed from the game)... but i think a compromise might be to take out the armory requirement... There is no easy answer to the problem that is the hellbat, but HOTS is so fun because harras is so strong: mutas, oracles Medevac boost + WM or HB. Medevac boost instantly made every Tv MU more fun to play and watch and blizz will NOT change it. so try and find a solution to HB! "Top Zergs" DO NOT MATTER if the strategy is creating problems for lower level players. Honestly people (and Blizzard) should get rid of the notion that "if Soulkey or Innovation can do X against super strong unit Y the game is fine". The game has to be playable AND BE FUN for all levels of play and thus balancing for progamers is seriously stupid. Oh and the biggest problem is TvT, because two Terrans dropping each other is silly and boring to watch because neither will have the forces to defend and thus we will have a lot of roasted SCVs without any engagement at all ...
Lets remove baneling splash then since Bronze scrubs cant split and its "ruining their fun" and they cant use marines because its "unplayable".
Balancing for anything but the highest level would be completely fucking retarded. Bad players can fix their problems by getting better. If you dont balance for the highest level of play when trying to make an esports title you are doing it very wrong.
If you want a game where blizzard focuses on "making it fun for all levels of play" you can go play World of Warcraft, where they have consistently dumbed the game down since the end of The Burning Crusade.
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On June 13 2013 16:21 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 15:25 Orangered wrote:
It doesnt make sense to remove boost in relation to cargo. Just give Hellbats and additional gas requirement and this is fixed It makes sense to nerf hellbat drops when hellbat drops are seen as the problem. Your suggestion is to straight up nerf hellbats. Garbage post, man, seriously.
Please what? Hellbat drops are completly broken, like completly, there is literally no other way to open tvt than hellbat drops, that is so fundamentally broken that they have to nerf it. Now hellbats themselves are not entirely broken, they are just very poorly designed and just because drops are a bigger issue does not mean that hellbats themselves are fine. Now rather than Orangered you are the one with the garbage post here.
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Balancing for anything but the highest level would be completely fucking retarded. Bad players can fix their problems by getting better. If you dont balance for the highest level of play when trying to make an esports title you are doing it very wrong.
If you want a game where blizzard focuses on "making it fun for all levels of play" you can go play World of Warcraft, where they have consistently dumbed the game down since the end of The Burning Crusade.
Cannot agree with you. Every sport should be accesible for every level. Should give fun and pleasure. Why? Because then people watch it. If people will not find pleasure of gaming on that casual level then it will be never wide popular and it will remind nerdy and not well sponsored. Look at football and let think what makes this sport so popular and why people want to watch it. Compare this now with some sport that require alot of skill and compare amount of fans and popularity in TV.
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EPT
