EPTDavid Kim comments on Hellbat drops - Page 31
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ShroudeD
Greece1333 Posts
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
On June 30 2013 20:01 pmp10 wrote: Actually with HotS they promised to make mech work in TvP so it seems like they still want mech to exist. It's just that their failure in terran design during beta made mech completely reliant on a single broken unit. Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game. This unit is that good especially with 3/3 upgrades that in order to introduce another unit in the game to do a similar role (Warhound prehaps??) from a factory it would have to be even better or it wouldn't get built. Mech will never be useful with this unit in the game, its just too good against Protoss not to get built. Its fast and mobile, it can be healed, its anti amour dps is superb and it can survive storms quite well Mech is viable, just not so much compare to Bio when put in the hands of Korean when 250+ apm | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Topplayers (e.g. Innovation, Flash, Soulkey, sOs) seem to hold them in ways were they don't fall behind, so it seems like they are dealable in every matchup. At the moment they should leave them. Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game. Marines do more damage versus armored than marauders, unless there is natural armor in the equation. The only upside with the marauder is how it doesn't die as easily to splash. --> if the marauder is a problem for mech, marines are just as much of a problem | ||
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RandomAccount#282689
42 Posts
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
On June 30 2013 20:47 Big J wrote: SC2 really has bigger issues than sidekick units being an efficient way to open a game and to be mixed into compositions. Topplayers (e.g. Innovation, Flash, Soulkey, sOs) seem to hold them in ways were they don't fall behind, so it seems like they are dealable in every matchup. At the moment they should leave them. The point is the best you can do vs helbat drops is not fall behind when you defend perfectly. This is why its so overpowered and pretty much everyone goes for it all the time. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 30 2013 20:51 syriuszonito wrote: The point is the best you can do vs helbat drops is not fall behind when you defend perfectly. This is why its so overpowered and pretty much everyone goes for it all the time. well, that's the point of a standard build. That you end up equal. At the moment hellbat drop openings are nothing but the reactored hellions of 2011 - but less coinflippy, because you have more time to prepare for them. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On June 30 2013 20:43 Topdoller wrote: Blizzard condemned Mech to an early grave when they introduced the Maurader a cheap 25 gas unit that when stimmed shits over every armored unit in the game. This unit is that good especially with 3/3 upgrades that in order to introduce another unit in the game to do a similar role (Warhound prehaps??) from a factory it would have to be even better or it wouldn't get built. Mech will never be useful with this unit in the game, its just too good against Protoss not to get built. Its fast and mobile, it can be healed, its anti amour dps is superb and it can survive storms quite well Mech is viable, just not so much compare to Bio when put in the hands of Korean when 250+ apm Mech issues have nothing to do with the existence of the Marauder, who isn't "just too good against Protoss" considering he's not efficient against the standard Zealot wall. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On June 30 2013 20:51 syriuszonito wrote: The point is the best you can do vs helbat drops is not fall behind when you defend perfectly. This is why its so overpowered and pretty much everyone goes for it all the time. If it's so OP and everyone does it, what do you think will happen to terran winrates once its nerfed? You seem to be rationalizing that the terran doing hellbat drops gets the advantage in most games and even is on equal footing if he gets perfectly defended. What happens to the currently balanced winrates if we take this *obvious* advantage away? | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On June 30 2013 21:03 TheDwf wrote: Mech issues have nothing to do with the existence of the Marauder, who isn't "just too good against Protoss" considering he's not efficient against the standard Zealot wall. I think had it not been for the marauder, the game wouldn't have been balanced around bio in the very first place. Everyone abused bio so much during the initial WoL beta that it became standard and then mech got left to pretty much rot for the majority of not only WoL but seemingly HoTS now as well. Bio is just too versatile to not be standard, it doesn't really have any real weakness and those weaknesses are easily avoidable by just having good control. Blizzard at this point are never going to buff mech because in their eyes, it's completely not necessary as everyone goes bio anyway. In the eyes of your general viewer who knows very little about the game and just watches it for the excitement factor, mech now as the weak (compared to bio) style that it is will always look boring and if mech becomes standard in any of the matchups it wouldn't surprise me if bio recieved another buff or mech got another nef. | ||
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Dzerzhinsky
Scotland327 Posts
On June 30 2013 21:14 Qikz wrote: I think had it not been for the marauder, the game wouldn't have been balanced around bio in the very first place. Everyone abused bio so much during the initial WoL beta that it became standard and then mech got left to pretty much rot for the majority of not only WoL but seemingly HoTS now as well. Bio is just too versatile to not be standard, it doesn't really have any real weakness and those weaknesses are easily avoidable by just having good control. Blizzard at this point are never going to buff mech because in their eyes, it's completely not necessary as everyone goes bio anyway. In the eyes of your general viewer who knows very little about the game and just watches it for the excitement factor, mech now as the weak (compared to bio) style that it is will always look boring and if mech becomes standard in any of the matchups it wouldn't surprise me if bio recieved another buff or mech got another nef. Kim explicitly stated in an interview that he thinks mech is boring and, if it became popular, they'd look at changes so that it wasn't used in too many games. | ||
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pmp10
3239 Posts
And that change would be a major nerf that could possibly end hellbat usage. Sadly there is no middle-ground between 2-shooting and 3-shooting workers. Blizzard backed themselves into a corner with this one. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On June 30 2013 21:22 Dzerzhinsky wrote: Kim explicitly stated in an interview that he thinks mech is boring and, if it became popular, they'd look at changes so that it wasn't used in too many games. You mean the Apollo interview? I don't think he explicitly said mech was boring, more that they are trying to find a balance but still prefer bio due its more active playstyle. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
On June 30 2013 20:47 Big J wrote: SC2 really has bigger issues than sidekick units being an efficient way to open a game and to be mixed into compositions. Topplayers (e.g. Innovation, Flash, Soulkey, sOs) seem to hold them in ways were they don't fall behind, so it seems like they are dealable in every matchup. At the moment they should leave them. Marines do more damage versus armored than marauders, unless there is natural armor in the equation. The only upside with the marauder is how it doesn't die as easily to splash. --> if the marauder is a problem for mech, marines are just as much of a problem What really killed mech was when tanks got a massive dmg nerf in WOL beta, because zergs couldn't stop 2 base mech aggression on the tiny maps that were full of cliffs. Since then the average map is much larger, and zergs have learned the mechanics of their race quite well. This change should be undone now, make siege tanks scary again. In TvP it's actually quite hard to produce any army that isn't good vs tanks, even sentries can hallucinate immortals to draw fire. Seriously, try to think of a protoss unit that is weak to tanks. Anything from a robo or stargate is good, and as long as you get a twilight council, charge lots or blink stalkers are good. If terrans had the massive dmg of real siege tanks, zerg and protoss would actually have to respect the terrans army more and engage properly. Right now it seems like it is just a macro battle into trying to surround bio balls to prevent kiting, or deal out so much splash dmg the bio ball vanishes. Neither is very entertaining, and there is a huge burden on the part of the terran to control extremely well against a move command to try and surround (chargelots with colossus or speedlings with banes) or a spam of splash dmg (storm, fungal) Tanks being strong again not only opens up mech, but makes standard marine/tank or MMM+tank not only viable but much more strategic, interesting, fun to watch and fun to play. While mines have their built in weaknesses and ways to control well against them which greatly lowers their effectiveness, I feel like giving siege tanks back their "omfg wtf is that dmg" would allow for a scaling back of hellbat and overall enrich every terran matchup. Also, I'm sick of watching terrans die to every all in against them that gets attempted, even when they see it coming, wall in, make extra bunkers, and produce tanks. It's ridiculous that they still work or even do significant dmg. It's just my opinion, but I feel like siege tanks are such an iconic unit, and making them so strong that people have to respect them will be greatly enriching to every terran matchup. This will allow for other changes to be made to terran without the race being crippled, because having those tanks be positional gods again will open up so many options to terran. Sure, it might slow down the pace of some of the early game, but it will open the window for some beautiful mid/late game play. Imagine seeing more games with this style of play, or depth of strategy and thought into using terrain. + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 30 2013 21:22 Dzerzhinsky wrote: Kim explicitly stated in an interview that he thinks mech is boring and, if it became popular, they'd look at changes so that it wasn't used in too many games. Kim stated he doesn't like styles that focus on static units or turtling. After seeing how swarmhosts work and the BL infestort style with 200000 spine crawlers, I can't blame him. Those were(and are) both the suck. | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
On June 30 2013 21:03 TheDwf wrote: Mech issues have nothing to do with the existence of the Marauder, who isn't "just too good against Protoss" considering he's not efficient against the standard Zealot wall. Mix in a few Hellbats , problem solved. marine\marauder + Hellbats, fast mobile and cheap (almost no gas ). any Protoss that goes heavy Zealot basically has a useless army Either way back on topic:- in TvT Hellbats are fine. Its a mirror match-up, the players have the tools to negate the opening | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
On June 30 2013 21:35 Reborn8u wrote: What really killed mech was when tanks got a massive dmg nerf in WOL beta, because zergs couldn't stop 2 base mech aggression on the tiny maps that were full of cliffs. Since then the average map is much larger, and zergs have learned the mechanics of their race quite well. This change should be undone now, make siege tanks scary again. In TvP it's actually quite hard to produce any army that isn't good vs tanks, even sentries can hallucinate immortals to draw fire. Seriously, try to think of a protoss unit that is weak to tanks. Anything from a robo or stargate is good, and as long as you get a twilight council, charge lots or blink stalkers are good. If terrans had the massive dmg of real siege tanks, zerg and protoss would actually have to respect the terrans army more and engage properly. Right now it seems like it is just a macro battle into trying to surround bio balls to prevent kiting, or deal out so much splash dmg the bio ball vanishes. Neither is very entertaining, and there is a huge burden on the part of the terran to control extremely well against a move command to try and surround (chargelots with colossus or speedlings with banes) or a spam of splash dmg (storm, fungal) Tanks being strong again not only opens up mech, but makes standard marine/tank or MMM+tank not only viable but much more strategic, interesting, fun to watch and fun to play. While mines have their built in weaknesses and ways to control well against them which greatly lowers their effectiveness, I feel like giving siege tanks back their "omfg wtf is that dmg" would allow for a scaling back of hellbat and overall enrich every terran matchup. Also, I'm sick of watching terrans die to every all in against them that gets attempted, even when they see it coming, wall in, make extra bunkers, and produce tanks. It's ridiculous that they still work or even do significant dmg. "Also, I'm sick of watching terrans die to every all in against them that gets attempted, even when they see it coming, wall in, make extra bunkers, and produce tanks. It's ridiculous that they still work or even do significant dmg. " Prehaps they shouldn't load up their whole standing army into medivacs and send them to the other half of the map whilst building 3 CC's at the 6 minute mark. It's a metagame thing you are moaning about | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
On June 30 2013 21:35 Reborn8u wrote: What really killed mech was when tanks got a massive dmg nerf in WOL beta, because zergs couldn't stop 2 base mech aggression on the tiny maps that were full of cliffs. Since then the average map is much larger, and zergs have learned the mechanics of their race quite well. This change should be undone now, make siege tanks scary again. In TvP it's actually quite hard to produce any army that isn't good vs tanks, even sentries can hallucinate immortals to draw fire. Seriously, try to think of a protoss unit that is weak to tanks. Anything from a robo or stargate is good, and as long as you get a twilight council, charge lots or blink stalkers are good. If terrans had the massive dmg of real siege tanks, zerg and protoss would actually have to respect the terrans army more and engage properly. Right now it seems like it is just a macro battle into trying to surround bio balls to prevent kiting, or deal out so much splash dmg the bio ball vanishes. Neither is very entertaining, and there is a huge burden on the part of the terran to control extremely well against a move command to try and surround (chargelots with colossus or speedlings with banes) or a spam of splash dmg (storm, fungal) Tanks being strong again not only opens up mech, but makes standard marine/tank or MMM+tank not only viable but much more strategic, interesting, fun to watch and fun to play. While mines have their built in weaknesses and ways to control well against them which greatly lowers their effectiveness, I feel like giving siege tanks back their "omfg wtf is that dmg" would allow for a scaling back of hellbat and overall enrich every terran matchup. I made all the same points long ago during the Beta: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378373 But Blizzard ignored them. I also stated this: The power of Mech should not come from the Widow Mine, it should come from the Siege Tank. The Siege Tank should hit hard, not the Widow Mine. If Siege Tanks do enough damage then Mech will work. If they don't, then we'll constantly be looking for something that will do big damage and that we can combine with Siege Tanks so we can say "See Siege Tanks work when you use them with X!" X being the very hard hitting Warhound that was removed or Widow Mine. And in both cases, the Widow Mine and Warhound are better used alone or with other Terran play styles, than in conjunction with Siege Tanks in TvP. Blizzard also believes otherwise, openly stating that they prefer Widow Mines and the play they encourage to Siege Tanks. I think the Tank is dead forever. On June 30 2013 21:41 Plansix wrote: Kim stated he doesn't like styles that focus on static units or turtling. After seeing how swarmhosts work and the BL infestort style with 200000 spine crawlers, I can't blame him. Those were(and are) both the suck. So he thinks that static units and turtling is boring, yet he released the Swarm Host, Mothership Core with Photon Overcharge and Widow Mine and keeps buffing the Spore Crawler? | ||
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FirstGear
Australia185 Posts
On June 30 2013 21:24 pmp10 wrote: And that change would be a major nerf that could possibly end hellbat usage. Sadly there is no middle-ground between 2-shooting and 3-shooting workers. Blizzard backed themselves into a corner with this one. The easy fix is make it 3 shot workers, by nerfing the damage, but correspondingly buff the attack speed. That way hellbats do the same dps. That nerfs them in worker drops and in TvT against marines which is the 2 things they need fixing for. Mech is just as viable and hellbats in tvp are just as viable. | ||
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