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On June 10 2013 04:50 pivor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 04:46 Hitch-22 wrote:
You haven't tried to bio vs mech in TvT then... If your opponent goes hellbats in TvT you now HAVE to go hellbats, there is no rauder combination with tanks more superior then hellbat/tank. The only other alternative is sky terran. Mech was always superior to Bio in face to face battles.
Indeed but the difference was that with a rauder/tank army you could always slow and pick away at the army as it cross the map (the other opponent would have to seige unseige) and in doing so you could stim in, kill 10-15 hellions and maybe grab a tank and run back and this would happen for 2-3 minutes as the mech tried to cross the map. NOW if you catch a mech army out of position the hellbats > rauders, more HP so they just stand there healing and your tanks get free seige with negligible losses.
What use to be an interesting MU of a push and shove contest turned into a 1a move across the map with a few occassionaly seiges.
On June 10 2013 04:52 OfficeBrahzz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 04:49 Hitch-22 wrote:On June 10 2013 04:48 OfficeBrahzz wrote:On June 10 2013 04:46 Hitch-22 wrote:On June 10 2013 04:44 OfficeBrahzz wrote:
instead of nerfing hellbats, I elect to give protoss and zerg equally powerful drop harassment abilities
- Half the cargo size of collossi and immortals, allowing warp prism's to carry 4 immortals or 2 collossi
- Allow overseers to become dropships. Make overseers super dropships containing 16supply of drop space (16 lings, or 8 roaches). I garuntee zergs would use this to a great benefit at lair and start doing drop / tactical offensive strategies if their overseers could become dropships.
also i would just like to add
I feel hellbats are perfectly balanced in their lategame battle capability, they are only a little dumb in drops. You haven't tried to bio vs mech in TvT then... If your opponent goes hellbats in TvT you now HAVE to go hellbats, there is no rauder combination with tanks more superior then hellbat/tank. The only other alternative is sky terran. im thinking if hellbats couldnt be dropped, they wouldnt be so powerful in TvT. i dont know the solution for hellbats in TvT im mostly thinking about hellbats in ZvT and PvT, which is why I decided to change the matchup by BUFFING the other 2 races drop capability instead of nerfing terrans You were serious with those suggestions... ? sure. Im only talking about PvT and ZvT in PvT and ZvT, hellbats are extremely powerful in drop tactics. Many want to NERF the hellbat, but I feel hellbats are balanced in armies and the power comes from the drop tactics. So my solution was, instead of nerfing the hellbat, why not simply buff the drop tactics of the other 2 races. I buffed their ability to drop by making it cheaper. Now instead of needing 2 warp prisms to drop 4 immortals, you only need 1 prism to drop 4 immortals, so thats 200 mineral cheaper investment to drop a certain amount of power. Or for zerg instead of spending 300/300 to drop some units, you only spend 50/50.
This is why I've always been an advocate of any balance suggestions being met with your relative league... Those are the two worst suggestions I've ever read regarding a balance of anything... Not only is it terrible, it is completely off topic for this thread and has no barring on the hellbats effectiveness.
At first I thought you were just messing around and trolling... now? My laughter died to a subtle... "He really thinks that's a good idea"
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I'm not going to pretend that I have a great insight into top level TvT. But from an obvserving prospective, Hellbats just get boring and they are frustrating to watch. Even with defences in place, a Hellbat drop - which is not a large investment - can decide a game if they get a few big hits off. Although its exciting, it is also a bit bitter to watch a Terran (or another race) to lose because they didn't pull their workers immediately or they were unlucky with some of the worker pathings.
Outside of drops Hellbats are slow, beefy and (don't appear) to require much micro in battles. I like that Hellbats make mech more viable, but I think it is a bit out of hand.
I think I would like to see a change either centred around a direct nerf (such as lowering health, stopping medivac healing, lowering damage) or a change aimed at delaying hellbats (such as requiring certain upgrades for a arc attack or to increase the damage.
Objectively, if I was to say that a unit cost 100 minerals, had 135hp, and did 18(+12 to light) damage, can be healed by medivacs; that does sound overpowered. There needs to be either a greater counterbalance (such as possibly reducing the range or the speed) to those stats, or those stats need to decrease
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well obviously it's way too cost effective and even when u dont do direct dmg, you do it on other ways...either hellbats should get nerf dmg and bfh back so dmg with bfh is even to the current one...or bring back that hellbats require upgrade to be made&transformed(maybe put back cost to 100/100).
what i'd like the most is cargo 5/6. we all know it's dumb that hellbat is getting healed but i think it's ok because it gives nice buffer to mech army.what is terrible that u can bomb opponent's army with hellbat drops and that is way too effective, as effective as hellbat drop harrass. this way u could load only 1 hellbat and 2/3marines/mine in medivac...so id like this change the most, hellbat cargo increase to 5 or 6.
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On June 10 2013 04:52 Hitch-22 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 04:50 pivor wrote:On June 10 2013 04:46 Hitch-22 wrote:
You haven't tried to bio vs mech in TvT then... If your opponent goes hellbats in TvT you now HAVE to go hellbats, there is no rauder combination with tanks more superior then hellbat/tank. The only other alternative is sky terran. Mech was always superior to Bio in face to face battles. Indeed but the difference was that with a rauder/tank army you could always slow and pick away at the army as it cross the map (the other opponent would have to seige unseige) and in doing so you could stim in, kill 10-15 hellions and maybe grab a tank and run back and this would happen for 2-3 minutes as the mech tried to cross the map. NOW if you catch a mech army out of position the hellbats > rauders, more HP so they just stand there healing and your tanks get free seige with negligible losses. What use to be an interesting MU of a push and shove contest turned into a 1a move across the map with a few occassionaly seiges. Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 04:52 OfficeBrahzz wrote:On June 10 2013 04:49 Hitch-22 wrote:On June 10 2013 04:48 OfficeBrahzz wrote:On June 10 2013 04:46 Hitch-22 wrote:On June 10 2013 04:44 OfficeBrahzz wrote:
instead of nerfing hellbats, I elect to give protoss and zerg equally powerful drop harassment abilities
- Half the cargo size of collossi and immortals, allowing warp prism's to carry 4 immortals or 2 collossi
- Allow overseers to become dropships. Make overseers super dropships containing 16supply of drop space (16 lings, or 8 roaches). I garuntee zergs would use this to a great benefit at lair and start doing drop / tactical offensive strategies if their overseers could become dropships.
also i would just like to add
I feel hellbats are perfectly balanced in their lategame battle capability, they are only a little dumb in drops. You haven't tried to bio vs mech in TvT then... If your opponent goes hellbats in TvT you now HAVE to go hellbats, there is no rauder combination with tanks more superior then hellbat/tank. The only other alternative is sky terran. im thinking if hellbats couldnt be dropped, they wouldnt be so powerful in TvT. i dont know the solution for hellbats in TvT im mostly thinking about hellbats in ZvT and PvT, which is why I decided to change the matchup by BUFFING the other 2 races drop capability instead of nerfing terrans You were serious with those suggestions... ? sure. Im only talking about PvT and ZvT in PvT and ZvT, hellbats are extremely powerful in drop tactics. Many want to NERF the hellbat, but I feel hellbats are balanced in armies and the power comes from the drop tactics. So my solution was, instead of nerfing the hellbat, why not simply buff the drop tactics of the other 2 races. I buffed their ability to drop by making it cheaper. Now instead of needing 2 warp prisms to drop 4 immortals, you only need 1 prism to drop 4 immortals, so thats 200 mineral cheaper investment to drop a certain amount of power. Or for zerg instead of spending 300/300 to drop some units, you only spend 50/50. This is why I've always been an advocate of any balance suggestions being met with your relative league... Those are the two worst suggestions I've ever read regarding a balance of anything... Not only is it terrible, it is completely off topic for this thread and has no barring on the hellbats effectiveness.
I am master league.
I dont see whats wrong with my logic.
1) I think hellbats are well balanced in combat stats / price / movement speed / damage / etc
2) I think the problems people think exist with hellbats, mainly stem from DROP capability
3) So I think the solution lies in drop capability. either nerf hellbats drop capability, or buff the drop capability of the other 2 races. Either would be a fine solution to me. I honestly dont care. I do feel hellbat drops are a little too strong which is why i support some change in droping mechanics for the races, but I dont think the hellbat itself needs a nerf.
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I play high master terran.
Hellbats are okay for now, balance wise. Players are already starting to adapt to the drops with better map awareness, hellions, and well placed defense. Hellbats actually do require a lot of attention to effectively micro in and out of the medivac.
The problem is that the TvT metagame looks really dumb right now with all of the back and forth dropping. This will change. The hellbat is not the most creatively designed unit, but it is not imbalanced.
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On June 10 2013 04:05 ZackAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 03:52 Greenei wrote:
I just love it how Zergs and Protosses try to sneak in Hellbatnerfs and pretend to care about TvT. Just admit that you don't give a shit and are only looking for an easier time in your MU. I think someone hellbat drops in every game and is mad.
No. They aren't that great against P and Z. You guys are just too bad to defend them and now give some BS argument why they should be nerfed because of TvT. But most of those proposals are a clear nerf and not something that would only affect TvT like the Sporechange in ZvZ.
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I think they should just nerf the medivac boost. Do not let units load or unload from a boosted medivac and don't let the medivac be able to heal.. Add a cancel boost option to the medivac though.
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Cargo 5 would be acceptable for me. A 25 gas cost too. But a health / damage nerf: no, really, no. Then it's just a hellion.
Another acceptable thing would be the transform upgrade: remove the hellbat from the factory, so hellbats can only be made by transforming hellions (which requires the upgrade).
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On June 10 2013 01:37 TheSayo182 wrote:
the biggest shame is that it doesn't require gas, how can a car who spit fire run without gas?
uhh if it costed gas, then you could jjust by hellions with the transform upgrade and transform them...
i guess it matters in the early game though so maybe
hm... and i also wonder how many players that are complaining about hell bats are like plat and lower.... maybe even dia and lower
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On June 10 2013 05:09 Orcasgt24 wrote:
I think they should just nerf the medivac boost. Do not let units load or unload from a boosted medivac and don't let the medivac be able to heal.. Add a cancel boost option to the medivac though.
Why???? Is there a problem with terran in general? TvP is already hard. TvZ lategame is already hard. You have no idea how big a speedvac nerf would be. Do we want WOL terran back or what? After reading the comments, I feel like this is what people are saying:
Dear Blizzard, thanks for our buffs, but we want the new terran stuff to be nerfed. This way we can play against WOL terrans, with our upgraded protoss and zerg race. Because you knew, terrans were doing "so well" at the end of WOL.
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Lets summarize the unit with a single word... " Imba ".
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I think hellbat drops in tvt are just current meta and will shift asap when BOs will be adjusted.
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I honestly don't see why Blueflame upgrade isn't required for some of that +Light damage. I mean, why have an upgrade for a unit that doesn't actually upgrade it?
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you know something is broken, when Hellbats can head on take on marines (which were considered the cause of the most design related balance issues)
It just funny, that Hellbats are so broken, that it even is an issue for Terran, which usally has the best defensive capabilties.
What are the other races supposed to say? The Risk/Reward ratio needs to be fixed ASAP, or else we will always see 24/7 Hellbat drops in most games.
That Terran might need some help in other areas, doesn't justify keeping units which are not balanced.
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On June 10 2013 05:13 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 05:09 Orcasgt24 wrote:
I think they should just nerf the medivac boost. Do not let units load or unload from a boosted medivac and don't let the medivac be able to heal.. Add a cancel boost option to the medivac though. Why???? Is there a problem with terran in general? TvP is already hard. TvZ lategame is already hard. You have no idea how big a speedvac nerf would be. Do we want WOL terran back or what? After reading the comments, I feel like this is what people are saying: Dear Blizzard, thanks for our buffs, but we want the new terran stuff to be nerfed. This way we can play against WOL terrans, with our upgraded protoss and zerg race. Because you knew, terrans were doing "so well" at the end of WOL.
Lol! How dare you bring logic in here Snowbear?!?!?!
Know ye not that those whom reside here don't have the concept of such a thing?
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On June 10 2013 05:20 freetgy wrote:
you know something is broken, when Hellbats can head on take on marines (which were considered the cause of the most design related balance issues)
It just funny, that Hellbats are so broken, that it even is an issue for Terran, which usally has the best defensive capabilties.
What are the other races supposed to say?
Nothing, because they have much better tools to handle Hellbat drops efficiently.
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What I really don't like about the hellbat (besides everything else, especially the stormproof marauder-hellbat composition) is that given a drop, the first choice of action against the line of defense is to drop it in the middle of the defensive line to fuck it up. I mean, small drops are supposed to be fragile and cost-effective. Zealot drops don't last long, but they fuck shit up. Zergling/roach drops don't last long, but they fuck shit up. You can drop hellbats into the middle of a group of marines/zerglings to destroy it, then continue on trucking. It's quite worse than a reaver in BW, where you know that although they are quite powerful, you can kill it or chase it away easily. You can do neither with a hellbat because the best option is for the dropping player to shove the hellbats into your face.
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When I saw Innovation always with a well placed bunker and turret just not to completely die from Hellbats I shed a tear..
I still want to know why you should be able to carry Hellbats in Medivacs.
If it's whats needed for Mech to be successful well then the problem is the Mech transition and not how much silly damage you could do with Hellbat drops.
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I have always thought they should get a damage reduction but be given the blue flame upgrade. That means drops are not as strong opening but still have some utility. It also makes hellions and the transform option more interesting.
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On June 10 2013 05:13 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 05:09 Orcasgt24 wrote:
I think they should just nerf the medivac boost. Do not let units load or unload from a boosted medivac and don't let the medivac be able to heal.. Add a cancel boost option to the medivac though. Why???? Is there a problem with terran in general? TvP is already hard. TvZ lategame is already hard. You have no idea how big a speedvac nerf would be. Do we want WOL terran back or what? After reading the comments, I feel like this is what people are saying: Dear Blizzard, thanks for our buffs, but we want the new terran stuff to be nerfed. This way we can play against WOL terrans, with our upgraded protoss and zerg race. Because you knew, terrans were doing "so well" at the end of WOL.
Well, you terrans, were surely not complaining at the beginning of WoL. Hmm, I wonder why?
I said this in another thread, but you're just as bad these zergs defending their OP mutas(vs P, anyway)
You never really needed the medivac buff to begin with and the same can be said mutas.
This hellbat unit is just another warhound in disguise.
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EPT
