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TLADT24920 Posts
On June 07 2013 01:19 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 01:14 Batcha wrote:
Pretty entertaining.
The sc2 dev portrayal matches up quite nicely with the state of the game.
Not sure why some nerds here shove the notion of bitterness though..
The person seems quite reasonable and brings up positive and negative stuff, but i guess some people are used to buying the idyllic employee talk.
He did just lose his job though, surely he is a little bitter with what went down right?
Should answer your question:
[–]argole 6 points 11 hours ago
Are you at all bitter about being laid off?
[–]BlizzardThrowaway[S] 17 points 9 hours ago
Bittersweet, really. It was shitty that it happened, but it also allowed me to do some things I wouldn't have been able to if I had still been working there. I miss working there at times, but I had a good run.
Ya, it's from her side but all we have 
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On June 07 2013 01:00 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2013 00:40 theking1 wrote:On June 07 2013 00:29 Aberu wrote:On June 07 2013 00:11 theking1 wrote:On June 07 2013 00:06 Gowerly wrote:On June 06 2013 23:55 HeeroFX wrote:
I think we knew the sc devs were dicks when they refused to give listen to the community wants and suggestions. To be fair have you seen some of the suggestions the community has? Some places (a couple where I have worked) don't even allow the devs on their forums because a) it's soul destroying and b) because the suggestions are largely bad at best and insane at worst It's ok to listen to a subset of the community, generally the top level players, as they understand things the most. Outside of that, though, you're all crazy. There is a rule in business staitng the customer is always right.Saying that people who buy your products are wrong and you are better than them is a bit of dangerous for the company.Also listening to the community seems to be working flawlessly for other games develpes such as riot,valve or the dudes behind world of tanks.Why can't blizzard do the same?We're not half as toxic as other communities,most of us have been long time fans aka buyers of blizzard games and when a topic gets like a 100 pages on the forum its most likely a serious issue. That rule is based on how you treat the customers. You treat them AS IF they are right. If "the customer is always right" means "you give every single customer exactly what they want" then every restaurant in the world would have 50 page long menus and be unfeasible to run. Source: Restaurant manager. That saying is fucking ridiculous. You treat them courteously and nicely as if they are right, and you apologize humbly and try to make it up to them if something goes wrong. You treat complaints as 10 times important as compliments. That's the meaning behind that phrase, so tired of people getting this wrong. Or let's apply the customer is always right mindset to games. A new patch every week taht dramatically changes multiple heroes, at many times the labor cost to the development team. Do you think the game would be as popular if they did that every time some SonGoku447UltraZ complained that his favorite hero wasn't OP enough? Gimme a break. i was reffering mostly to serious issues like the ones that cause 100 pages long threads.The issues do not include nerfing heroes but more serious topics such the free to play online features which they have implemented,lack of lan,more customization options such as skins etc etc.Nerfing a hero or race does not raise a 200k pettion like the lack of lan has Also your example with the restaurant is a bit flawed in this context.if a restauran towner receives 100 complains regarding a certaina spect he will most likely change it as he will lose clients.Also I seriously never heard of anyone complaining about restaurants not having 50 page long menus lol.The basic idea is that having such a hardcore fanbase we are most likely different from Songoku44utraz and know what we want(theoretically) and maybe we actually want the good of the game and do not complain for te sake of complaining Free to play is not an option for Blizzard for SC2. It would cost them millions of dollars to create a business model to justify the development cost, create a pricing structure for the content and then sell that content world wide. It has taken Riot years to create that. Also, why would Blizzard chase after Riots success? That is what tons of companies did for WoW and failed. There is no reason for Blizzard to change their plans just because someone else is making money on another game. The demands for F2P are being made by people who don’t understand how the industry works or just assume that F2P is easy. And a lot of people being outraged or upset about something on the internet it not good feedback or a reason to change things. A 100 page thread means that enough people posted world wide to make the thread 100 pages. At 20 posts a page or so, that is around 20,000 posts. At maximum that is 20K people (which is unlikely) world wide that decided to post about that thing. That is like getting 20K likes on facebook, which isn’t super meaningful. Just because a lot of people are willing to post about something doesn’t mean its important. It just means they were willing to take 1-5 minutes to post something. I disagree with you on that.Blizzard does not need to copy ad litteram the lol model but instead they can find ways of implementing f2p in sc2 while still making a profit.They have made steps in this direction with the recent spawning feature which will basicly allow players who do not own the game to play certain feature such as team maps and custom maps(which are by fr what most casua players play).I personally believe it is a step in the right direction which could have been done form the beggining considering bw already had such a feature. Regarding the 100 page thread thingy if its constructive criticism why not allow it.it doesnt hurt at all and maybe they can get some positive feedback.after all its free.
Other people have made this argument before, but I've still not heard one realistic/good suggestion to monetize a f2p SC2 that did not follow the LoL-model. As you've mentioned, the Spawning was a good step in getting new players to try the game, but ultimately they're still going to have to pay for something for Blizzard to make any money.
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A lot of this is due to how Starcraft is marketed/perceived by many people (even newcomers) on the internet. The campaign/custom maps aren't what people see/think of when you look up Starcraft on youtube etc, because no matter how we try to guise it well all know SC is more about the competitive aspect.
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Well obviously this person has every right to be annoyed at Blizzard if they've been laid off. It does sound like there is truth to some if not all of those answers though.
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On June 07 2013 01:20 Mortal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 00:09 Gorlin wrote:On June 06 2013 23:32 Assirra wrote:
This honestly just smells like a fired person venting about his previous employer. Agreed, I really don't think anyone should take what he wrote to heart. Unfortunately I agree as well. I wish there was some kind of happy medium between the fluffy AMA with the SC devs and this clearly unhappy (former) employee.
Not to mention, Blizzard is a huge company. There will be dicks, not everyone in the world is an incredibly charming charismatic individual you know. >.>
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The guy is mostly very positive, only when he talks about SC2 dev, he is negative.
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How brave of him to insult people from behind a throwaway account.
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On June 07 2013 01:27 Grumbels wrote:
How brave of him to insult people from behind a throwaway account.
If he gave his identity then they would be removing any chance of a job in the industry in future.
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On June 07 2013 01:23 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 01:20 Mortal wrote:On June 07 2013 00:09 Gorlin wrote:On June 06 2013 23:32 Assirra wrote:
This honestly just smells like a fired person venting about his previous employer. Agreed, I really don't think anyone should take what he wrote to heart. Unfortunately I agree as well. I wish there was some kind of happy medium between the fluffy AMA with the SC devs and this clearly unhappy (former) employee. Not to mention, Blizzard is a huge company. There will be dicks, not everyone in the world is an incredibly charming charismatic individual you know. >.>
That's actually a great point. A friend of mine worked as something just above an intern and said that the majority of his associates were a lot like the BM kids we know about on ladder (very abraisive, obtuse), while a lot of the higher ups were generally more understanding and soft-spoken (not saying the really high ups, just the ones with a stable position).
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On June 07 2013 01:29 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 01:27 Grumbels wrote:
How brave of him to insult people from behind a throwaway account. If he gave his identity then they would be removing any chance of a job in the industry in future.
The weird part is s/he said s/he was never passionate about gaming in the first place, kinda odd to land a job at Blizzard with that in mind. *shrugs*
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As a developer myself I am probably thought of as a dick to QA as well. Because the only time I ever interact with QA is when they're complaining to fix some piece of software I'm in charge of and they think their little bug report is the most important thing to me. It isn't. I have a mountain of new development so just file the bug and I'll get around to it. Even worse, like he complained about, is when they give their opinions on the matter because 999/1000 they are completely and dead wrong. So when they go over their theories on the bug it goes in one ear and out the other. Or more accurately it goes right in my email's trash.
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On June 07 2013 01:19 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 01:09 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2013 01:00 theking1 wrote:On June 07 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2013 00:40 theking1 wrote:On June 07 2013 00:29 Aberu wrote:On June 07 2013 00:11 theking1 wrote:On June 07 2013 00:06 Gowerly wrote:On June 06 2013 23:55 HeeroFX wrote:
I think we knew the sc devs were dicks when they refused to give listen to the community wants and suggestions. To be fair have you seen some of the suggestions the community has? Some places (a couple where I have worked) don't even allow the devs on their forums because a) it's soul destroying and b) because the suggestions are largely bad at best and insane at worst It's ok to listen to a subset of the community, generally the top level players, as they understand things the most. Outside of that, though, you're all crazy. There is a rule in business staitng the customer is always right.Saying that people who buy your products are wrong and you are better than them is a bit of dangerous for the company.Also listening to the community seems to be working flawlessly for other games develpes such as riot,valve or the dudes behind world of tanks.Why can't blizzard do the same?We're not half as toxic as other communities,most of us have been long time fans aka buyers of blizzard games and when a topic gets like a 100 pages on the forum its most likely a serious issue. That rule is based on how you treat the customers. You treat them AS IF they are right. If "the customer is always right" means "you give every single customer exactly what they want" then every restaurant in the world would have 50 page long menus and be unfeasible to run. Source: Restaurant manager. That saying is fucking ridiculous. You treat them courteously and nicely as if they are right, and you apologize humbly and try to make it up to them if something goes wrong. You treat complaints as 10 times important as compliments. That's the meaning behind that phrase, so tired of people getting this wrong. Or let's apply the customer is always right mindset to games. A new patch every week taht dramatically changes multiple heroes, at many times the labor cost to the development team. Do you think the game would be as popular if they did that every time some SonGoku447UltraZ complained that his favorite hero wasn't OP enough? Gimme a break. i was reffering mostly to serious issues like the ones that cause 100 pages long threads.The issues do not include nerfing heroes but more serious topics such the free to play online features which they have implemented,lack of lan,more customization options such as skins etc etc.Nerfing a hero or race does not raise a 200k pettion like the lack of lan has Also your example with the restaurant is a bit flawed in this context.if a restauran towner receives 100 complains regarding a certaina spect he will most likely change it as he will lose clients.Also I seriously never heard of anyone complaining about restaurants not having 50 page long menus lol.The basic idea is that having such a hardcore fanbase we are most likely different from Songoku44utraz and know what we want(theoretically) and maybe we actually want the good of the game and do not complain for te sake of complaining Free to play is not an option for Blizzard for SC2. It would cost them millions of dollars to create a business model to justify the development cost, create a pricing structure for the content and then sell that content world wide. It has taken Riot years to create that. Also, why would Blizzard chase after Riots success? That is what tons of companies did for WoW and failed. There is no reason for Blizzard to change their plans just because someone else is making money on another game. The demands for F2P are being made by people who don’t understand how the industry works or just assume that F2P is easy. And a lot of people being outraged or upset about something on the internet it not good feedback or a reason to change things. A 100 page thread means that enough people posted world wide to make the thread 100 pages. At 20 posts a page or so, that is around 20,000 posts. At maximum that is 20K people (which is unlikely) world wide that decided to post about that thing. That is like getting 20K likes on facebook, which isn’t super meaningful. Just because a lot of people are willing to post about something doesn’t mean its important. It just means they were willing to take 1-5 minutes to post something. I disagree with you on that.Blizzard does not need to copy ad litteram the lol model but instead they can find ways of implementing f2p in sc2 while still making a profit.They have made steps in this direction with the recent spawning feature which will basicly allow players who do not own the game to play certain feature such as team maps and custom maps(which are by fr what most casua players play).I personally believe it is a step in the right direction which could have been done form the beggining considering bw already had such a feature. Regarding the 100 page thread thingy if its constructive criticism why not allow it.it doesnt hurt at all and maybe they can get some positive feedback.after all its free. I think you underestimate how hateful and harmful reading the comments or forums can be for someone making games or anything, really. There are endless discussions among professionals in public fields(casters, writers, producers, developers) and they all say the same thing: "Don't read the comments" Caster, content producers and game developers are not robots. They cannot simply shut of their emotions and ignore everything they read. That is not how people work. Even if there are gems of good advice, there are other ways to get that advice than subjecting yourself to the hate and bile of the internet. That's the worst mind set you can possibly have as someone whose career is built off of the public's perception and reception. As others have mentioned, Riot does a good job of at least reading the comments. They don't need to listen to any of them, but at least give the impression that you care in some way, shape or form. Simply ignoring your audience while saying "haters gonna hate" is going to get them nowhere except behind the companies like Riot which at least give the impression of valuing customer opinions.
Yes, and Riot also calls troll and toxic players dumb to their face through the power of math and look at the person's bad history. Riot does an good job and I am sure Blizzard reads the forums, but they don't respond to everything. But every employee doesn't read them. It the difference between someone's agent reading all the fan mail and the star reading all the fan mail. One is better because it provides a filter.
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On June 07 2013 01:08 SupLilSon wrote:
Dustin Browder may have been in the industry a long time, but really which of the games he's worked on have been any good? Red Alert 2? Battle for Middle Earth? Eh... very questionable. Just because you've been in the industry a long time doesn't mean you know it all or that suggestions are useless. And Valve at least puts on the impression that community concerns are at least looked into. Valve games and their system is constantly patched with changes to enhance the community. Let's be honest, Valve and Steam have definitely had problems in the past but they are clearly interested in community input and interaction. With Blizzard we get Bnet 2.0 a long with a whole slew of steps backwards compared to the past.
Red Alert 2, Battle for Middle earth and C&C Generals are all seen as good games by many people, so I'm not really sure what you are on about. Regarding Valve, Valve have done the exact same thing Blizzard are doing now. Valve strengthens my argument that the company knew what they were doing, but needed the time to make it all happen.
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On June 07 2013 01:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 01:00 theking1 wrote:On June 07 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2013 00:40 theking1 wrote:On June 07 2013 00:29 Aberu wrote:On June 07 2013 00:11 theking1 wrote:On June 07 2013 00:06 Gowerly wrote:On June 06 2013 23:55 HeeroFX wrote:
I think we knew the sc devs were dicks when they refused to give listen to the community wants and suggestions. To be fair have you seen some of the suggestions the community has? Some places (a couple where I have worked) don't even allow the devs on their forums because a) it's soul destroying and b) because the suggestions are largely bad at best and insane at worst It's ok to listen to a subset of the community, generally the top level players, as they understand things the most. Outside of that, though, you're all crazy. There is a rule in business staitng the customer is always right.Saying that people who buy your products are wrong and you are better than them is a bit of dangerous for the company.Also listening to the community seems to be working flawlessly for other games develpes such as riot,valve or the dudes behind world of tanks.Why can't blizzard do the same?We're not half as toxic as other communities,most of us have been long time fans aka buyers of blizzard games and when a topic gets like a 100 pages on the forum its most likely a serious issue. That rule is based on how you treat the customers. You treat them AS IF they are right. If "the customer is always right" means "you give every single customer exactly what they want" then every restaurant in the world would have 50 page long menus and be unfeasible to run. Source: Restaurant manager. That saying is fucking ridiculous. You treat them courteously and nicely as if they are right, and you apologize humbly and try to make it up to them if something goes wrong. You treat complaints as 10 times important as compliments. That's the meaning behind that phrase, so tired of people getting this wrong. Or let's apply the customer is always right mindset to games. A new patch every week taht dramatically changes multiple heroes, at many times the labor cost to the development team. Do you think the game would be as popular if they did that every time some SonGoku447UltraZ complained that his favorite hero wasn't OP enough? Gimme a break. i was reffering mostly to serious issues like the ones that cause 100 pages long threads.The issues do not include nerfing heroes but more serious topics such the free to play online features which they have implemented,lack of lan,more customization options such as skins etc etc.Nerfing a hero or race does not raise a 200k pettion like the lack of lan has Also your example with the restaurant is a bit flawed in this context.if a restauran towner receives 100 complains regarding a certaina spect he will most likely change it as he will lose clients.Also I seriously never heard of anyone complaining about restaurants not having 50 page long menus lol.The basic idea is that having such a hardcore fanbase we are most likely different from Songoku44utraz and know what we want(theoretically) and maybe we actually want the good of the game and do not complain for te sake of complaining Free to play is not an option for Blizzard for SC2. It would cost them millions of dollars to create a business model to justify the development cost, create a pricing structure for the content and then sell that content world wide. It has taken Riot years to create that. Also, why would Blizzard chase after Riots success? That is what tons of companies did for WoW and failed. There is no reason for Blizzard to change their plans just because someone else is making money on another game. The demands for F2P are being made by people who don’t understand how the industry works or just assume that F2P is easy. And a lot of people being outraged or upset about something on the internet it not good feedback or a reason to change things. A 100 page thread means that enough people posted world wide to make the thread 100 pages. At 20 posts a page or so, that is around 20,000 posts. At maximum that is 20K people (which is unlikely) world wide that decided to post about that thing. That is like getting 20K likes on facebook, which isn’t super meaningful. Just because a lot of people are willing to post about something doesn’t mean its important. It just means they were willing to take 1-5 minutes to post something. I disagree with you on that.Blizzard does not need to copy ad litteram the lol model but instead they can find ways of implementing f2p in sc2 while still making a profit.They have made steps in this direction with the recent spawning feature which will basicly allow players who do not own the game to play certain feature such as team maps and custom maps(which are by fr what most casua players play).I personally believe it is a step in the right direction which could have been done form the beggining considering bw already had such a feature. Regarding the 100 page thread thingy if its constructive criticism why not allow it.it doesnt hurt at all and maybe they can get some positive feedback.after all its free. I think you underestimate how hateful and harmful reading the comments or forums can be for someone making games or anything, really. There are endless discussions among professionals in public fields(casters, writers, producers, developers) and they all say the same thing: "Don't read the comments" Caster, content producers and game developers are not robots. They cannot simply shut of their emotions and ignore everything they read. That is not how people work. Even if there are gems of good advice, there are other ways to get that advice than subjecting yourself to the hate and bile of the internet.
I've been lurking on these forums for a couple of years.The commuity isn't that bad.There are some exagerrations but they get banned rather quickly by the mods.Also there does not need to be necessarly direct interraction.They could have like community managers who observe the forums and if a topic gets a lot of attention it can inform the dev teams about it.
The point that i am trying to make is that there are ways for the community and blizzard to closely interract without insults and trashtalk and it can work in the benefit of both.After all we want a good game and they want to take our money .
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Now we know why there are so many shitty maps in the pool! I feel such a huge relief, I can't describe it. This had been bothering me for ages.
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Interesting read, what he is saying basically sums up real life in any job to be honest. Not every person is bad, but as you rise up the "ranks" in any company the "Dick" factor grows more prominent as I know this from personal experience.
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A QA employee basically doesn't know anything about what's really going on. Nice read though.
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On June 07 2013 01:39 mechengineer123 wrote:
A QA employee basically doesn't know anything about what's really going on. Nice read though.
Yeah at first I thought it was a former developer then I read he was a GM and QA. So I pretty quickly lost interest. Those are pretty much the lowest positions you can get.
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She doesn't sound bitter at all actually.
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99.9% of all community suggestions are absolutely dismal and unbalanacable crap. That includes other "models" of those games and "revamps".
Those community suggestions which do get taken on (the paladin attack power scaling system from WoW, for example, originally suggested two years before implementation and implemented more or less as was described) tend to be backed up by a huge quantity of mathematics and based on existing mechanics.
Not even pros really have a grasp of what is going on. The bulk of the mathematics has been done by much lower ranked members of the community.
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On June 07 2013 01:19 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 01:09 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2013 01:00 theking1 wrote:On June 07 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2013 00:40 theking1 wrote:On June 07 2013 00:29 Aberu wrote:On June 07 2013 00:11 theking1 wrote:On June 07 2013 00:06 Gowerly wrote:On June 06 2013 23:55 HeeroFX wrote:
I think we knew the sc devs were dicks when they refused to give listen to the community wants and suggestions. To be fair have you seen some of the suggestions the community has? Some places (a couple where I have worked) don't even allow the devs on their forums because a) it's soul destroying and b) because the suggestions are largely bad at best and insane at worst It's ok to listen to a subset of the community, generally the top level players, as they understand things the most. Outside of that, though, you're all crazy. There is a rule in business staitng the customer is always right.Saying that people who buy your products are wrong and you are better than them is a bit of dangerous for the company.Also listening to the community seems to be working flawlessly for other games develpes such as riot,valve or the dudes behind world of tanks.Why can't blizzard do the same?We're not half as toxic as other communities,most of us have been long time fans aka buyers of blizzard games and when a topic gets like a 100 pages on the forum its most likely a serious issue. That rule is based on how you treat the customers. You treat them AS IF they are right. If "the customer is always right" means "you give every single customer exactly what they want" then every restaurant in the world would have 50 page long menus and be unfeasible to run. Source: Restaurant manager. That saying is fucking ridiculous. You treat them courteously and nicely as if they are right, and you apologize humbly and try to make it up to them if something goes wrong. You treat complaints as 10 times important as compliments. That's the meaning behind that phrase, so tired of people getting this wrong. Or let's apply the customer is always right mindset to games. A new patch every week taht dramatically changes multiple heroes, at many times the labor cost to the development team. Do you think the game would be as popular if they did that every time some SonGoku447UltraZ complained that his favorite hero wasn't OP enough? Gimme a break. i was reffering mostly to serious issues like the ones that cause 100 pages long threads.The issues do not include nerfing heroes but more serious topics such the free to play online features which they have implemented,lack of lan,more customization options such as skins etc etc.Nerfing a hero or race does not raise a 200k pettion like the lack of lan has Also your example with the restaurant is a bit flawed in this context.if a restauran towner receives 100 complains regarding a certaina spect he will most likely change it as he will lose clients.Also I seriously never heard of anyone complaining about restaurants not having 50 page long menus lol.The basic idea is that having such a hardcore fanbase we are most likely different from Songoku44utraz and know what we want(theoretically) and maybe we actually want the good of the game and do not complain for te sake of complaining Free to play is not an option for Blizzard for SC2. It would cost them millions of dollars to create a business model to justify the development cost, create a pricing structure for the content and then sell that content world wide. It has taken Riot years to create that. Also, why would Blizzard chase after Riots success? That is what tons of companies did for WoW and failed. There is no reason for Blizzard to change their plans just because someone else is making money on another game. The demands for F2P are being made by people who don’t understand how the industry works or just assume that F2P is easy. And a lot of people being outraged or upset about something on the internet it not good feedback or a reason to change things. A 100 page thread means that enough people posted world wide to make the thread 100 pages. At 20 posts a page or so, that is around 20,000 posts. At maximum that is 20K people (which is unlikely) world wide that decided to post about that thing. That is like getting 20K likes on facebook, which isn’t super meaningful. Just because a lot of people are willing to post about something doesn’t mean its important. It just means they were willing to take 1-5 minutes to post something. I disagree with you on that.Blizzard does not need to copy ad litteram the lol model but instead they can find ways of implementing f2p in sc2 while still making a profit.They have made steps in this direction with the recent spawning feature which will basicly allow players who do not own the game to play certain feature such as team maps and custom maps(which are by fr what most casua players play).I personally believe it is a step in the right direction which could have been done form the beggining considering bw already had such a feature. Regarding the 100 page thread thingy if its constructive criticism why not allow it.it doesnt hurt at all and maybe they can get some positive feedback.after all its free. I think you underestimate how hateful and harmful reading the comments or forums can be for someone making games or anything, really. There are endless discussions among professionals in public fields(casters, writers, producers, developers) and they all say the same thing: "Don't read the comments" Caster, content producers and game developers are not robots. They cannot simply shut of their emotions and ignore everything they read. That is not how people work. Even if there are gems of good advice, there are other ways to get that advice than subjecting yourself to the hate and bile of the internet. That's the worst mind set you can possibly have as someone whose career is built off of the public's perception and reception. As others have mentioned, Riot does a good job of at least reading the comments. They don't need to listen to any of them, but at least give the impression that you care in some way, shape or form. Simply ignoring your audience while saying "haters gonna hate" is going to get them nowhere except behind the companies like Riot which at least give the impression of valuing customer opinions.
They pay other people to read it who report the most useful criticism. Paying developers to read forums is expensive.
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EPT
