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Considering that Blizzard has yet to address common complaints about SC2 gameplay that have existed since beta, I'm inclined to believe this person. Its unbelievable that people still defend Blizzard after THREE YEARS.
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On June 08 2013 10:06 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 06:23 goofyballer wrote:Hi, video game developer here. On June 06 2013 23:32 Assirra wrote:
This honestly just smells like a fired person venting about his previous employer. Yeah, this is correct. Having worked both as a developer (programmer) now and in QA several years ago - in QA you feel like you guys are the ones spending the most time actually playing the game, and most of you are probably avid gamers in your free time, so dammit, you know games! And it's natural for people in QA to want to play game designer and be like "well I think this feature/unit/whatever would be better if it this part was different". But the reality is, QA is there to test the games, and the dev team is there to design + make them. Dev can (and generally will) take suggestions by QA under consideration, but they're certainly not obligated in any way to leave design decisions up to QA, and as a tester who thinks you know everything about the game you're working on, it can make you kinda bitter when you think you have a great idea and the dev team doesn't listen to you. It's pretty obvious reading through this guy/girl's AMA that he/she's an angry and bitter dude(ette). Looking through some early responses: On June 06 2013 23:28 needcomputer wrote:
Certain professions think they are better than other professions.. A Sc2 dev thinks he is greater than another blizzard employee (not a dev) just like a doctor thinks he is superior to a nurse/pharmacist. On June 06 2013 23:36 SupLilSon wrote:
Wow, thanks for this, really interesting read even though I havent gotten around to finishing it. Not surprised to hear about lots of massive egos within the Blizzard dev teams. I get a sadface seeing people taking all this as gospel from someone who likely had no kind of view into the inner circle of SC2 development whatsoever. I can't read the AMA anymore since it's been deleted, but from the mirror link: BlizzardThrowaway: I’ll say that working with SC2 devs can be challenging because they don’t tend to want to listen to your suggestions. They can also come across as quite dickesh because they feel they can do no wrong. Mind you there are some very nice devs on that team that actually give a shit, but some of the more “esteemed” devs have a superiority complex for sure. Like, wow, yeah, that's because you're a QA tester. Basically encapsulates what I'm saying above perfectly. Was he as much of a self-absorbed asshole in-person as he is on the fourms/on twitter?
BlizzardThrowaway: Oh yes he was. I can tell you a story of this time were our Customer Service department had a new policy where any new hires, no matter what department you were hired into, would have to sit with a Game Master for a few hours and see what it was like to be the face of Blizzard, and how hard our job was. Well they decided to include the executives on this one as well, and one day Ghostcrawler was scheduled to shadow a guy on my team. He basically spent the entire time on his phone texting, checking emails, or just leaving for long periods of time to make phone calls. He was so checked out from the experience that he left early because he was just too good to sit there with lowlife GMs. At least that’s the impression we got. I don't know who ghostcrawler is but I guarantee he's important enough (from how they're talking about him) that sitting around with a game master for several hours is a complete waste of his time. It's not personal, but obviously this employee took it personally. And that's why you guys shouldn't pay attention to this. So basically you are saying the average game development company has a shitty working environment where lots of employees are shunned and ignored. Everyone coming out and saying that these interactions are normal, as well as expected in the gaming industry are just making Blizzard look even worse. Organizational culture is really important to the growth and development of a company. If your testament and others are true, its really not a mystery why Blizzard products have been consistently disappointing compared to their predecessors.
What on earth are you talking about?
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On June 08 2013 10:30 goofyballer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 10:06 SupLilSon wrote:On June 08 2013 06:23 goofyballer wrote:Hi, video game developer here. On June 06 2013 23:32 Assirra wrote:
This honestly just smells like a fired person venting about his previous employer. Yeah, this is correct. Having worked both as a developer (programmer) now and in QA several years ago - in QA you feel like you guys are the ones spending the most time actually playing the game, and most of you are probably avid gamers in your free time, so dammit, you know games! And it's natural for people in QA to want to play game designer and be like "well I think this feature/unit/whatever would be better if it this part was different". But the reality is, QA is there to test the games, and the dev team is there to design + make them. Dev can (and generally will) take suggestions by QA under consideration, but they're certainly not obligated in any way to leave design decisions up to QA, and as a tester who thinks you know everything about the game you're working on, it can make you kinda bitter when you think you have a great idea and the dev team doesn't listen to you. It's pretty obvious reading through this guy/girl's AMA that he/she's an angry and bitter dude(ette). Looking through some early responses: On June 06 2013 23:28 needcomputer wrote:
Certain professions think they are better than other professions.. A Sc2 dev thinks he is greater than another blizzard employee (not a dev) just like a doctor thinks he is superior to a nurse/pharmacist. On June 06 2013 23:36 SupLilSon wrote:
Wow, thanks for this, really interesting read even though I havent gotten around to finishing it. Not surprised to hear about lots of massive egos within the Blizzard dev teams. I get a sadface seeing people taking all this as gospel from someone who likely had no kind of view into the inner circle of SC2 development whatsoever. I can't read the AMA anymore since it's been deleted, but from the mirror link: BlizzardThrowaway: I’ll say that working with SC2 devs can be challenging because they don’t tend to want to listen to your suggestions. They can also come across as quite dickesh because they feel they can do no wrong. Mind you there are some very nice devs on that team that actually give a shit, but some of the more “esteemed” devs have a superiority complex for sure. Like, wow, yeah, that's because you're a QA tester. Basically encapsulates what I'm saying above perfectly. Was he as much of a self-absorbed asshole in-person as he is on the fourms/on twitter?
BlizzardThrowaway: Oh yes he was. I can tell you a story of this time were our Customer Service department had a new policy where any new hires, no matter what department you were hired into, would have to sit with a Game Master for a few hours and see what it was like to be the face of Blizzard, and how hard our job was. Well they decided to include the executives on this one as well, and one day Ghostcrawler was scheduled to shadow a guy on my team. He basically spent the entire time on his phone texting, checking emails, or just leaving for long periods of time to make phone calls. He was so checked out from the experience that he left early because he was just too good to sit there with lowlife GMs. At least that’s the impression we got. I don't know who ghostcrawler is but I guarantee he's important enough (from how they're talking about him) that sitting around with a game master for several hours is a complete waste of his time. It's not personal, but obviously this employee took it personally. And that's why you guys shouldn't pay attention to this. So basically you are saying the average game development company has a shitty working environment where lots of employees are shunned and ignored. Everyone coming out and saying that these interactions are normal, as well as expected in the gaming industry are just making Blizzard look even worse. Organizational culture is really important to the growth and development of a company. If your testament and others are true, its really not a mystery why Blizzard products have been consistently disappointing compared to their predecessors. What on earth are you talking about?
The fact that you and others who claim to have worked in the gaming industry say that QA people are basically bottom of the totem pole and are treated like it. A company striving for strong organizational culture will at least make employees feel valued.
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On June 07 2013 01:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 01:19 SupLilSon wrote:On June 07 2013 01:09 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2013 01:00 theking1 wrote:On June 07 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2013 00:40 theking1 wrote:On June 07 2013 00:29 Aberu wrote:On June 07 2013 00:11 theking1 wrote:On June 07 2013 00:06 Gowerly wrote:On June 06 2013 23:55 HeeroFX wrote:
I think we knew the sc devs were dicks when they refused to give listen to the community wants and suggestions. To be fair have you seen some of the suggestions the community has? Some places (a couple where I have worked) don't even allow the devs on their forums because a) it's soul destroying and b) because the suggestions are largely bad at best and insane at worst It's ok to listen to a subset of the community, generally the top level players, as they understand things the most. Outside of that, though, you're all crazy. There is a rule in business staitng the customer is always right.Saying that people who buy your products are wrong and you are better than them is a bit of dangerous for the company.Also listening to the community seems to be working flawlessly for other games develpes such as riot,valve or the dudes behind world of tanks.Why can't blizzard do the same?We're not half as toxic as other communities,most of us have been long time fans aka buyers of blizzard games and when a topic gets like a 100 pages on the forum its most likely a serious issue. That rule is based on how you treat the customers. You treat them AS IF they are right. If "the customer is always right" means "you give every single customer exactly what they want" then every restaurant in the world would have 50 page long menus and be unfeasible to run. Source: Restaurant manager. That saying is fucking ridiculous. You treat them courteously and nicely as if they are right, and you apologize humbly and try to make it up to them if something goes wrong. You treat complaints as 10 times important as compliments. That's the meaning behind that phrase, so tired of people getting this wrong. Or let's apply the customer is always right mindset to games. A new patch every week taht dramatically changes multiple heroes, at many times the labor cost to the development team. Do you think the game would be as popular if they did that every time some SonGoku447UltraZ complained that his favorite hero wasn't OP enough? Gimme a break. i was reffering mostly to serious issues like the ones that cause 100 pages long threads.The issues do not include nerfing heroes but more serious topics such the free to play online features which they have implemented,lack of lan,more customization options such as skins etc etc.Nerfing a hero or race does not raise a 200k pettion like the lack of lan has Also your example with the restaurant is a bit flawed in this context.if a restauran towner receives 100 complains regarding a certaina spect he will most likely change it as he will lose clients.Also I seriously never heard of anyone complaining about restaurants not having 50 page long menus lol.The basic idea is that having such a hardcore fanbase we are most likely different from Songoku44utraz and know what we want(theoretically) and maybe we actually want the good of the game and do not complain for te sake of complaining  Free to play is not an option for Blizzard for SC2. It would cost them millions of dollars to create a business model to justify the development cost, create a pricing structure for the content and then sell that content world wide. It has taken Riot years to create that. Also, why would Blizzard chase after Riots success? That is what tons of companies did for WoW and failed. There is no reason for Blizzard to change their plans just because someone else is making money on another game. The demands for F2P are being made by people who don’t understand how the industry works or just assume that F2P is easy. And a lot of people being outraged or upset about something on the internet it not good feedback or a reason to change things. A 100 page thread means that enough people posted world wide to make the thread 100 pages. At 20 posts a page or so, that is around 20,000 posts. At maximum that is 20K people (which is unlikely) world wide that decided to post about that thing. That is like getting 20K likes on facebook, which isn’t super meaningful. Just because a lot of people are willing to post about something doesn’t mean its important. It just means they were willing to take 1-5 minutes to post something. I disagree with you on that.Blizzard does not need to copy ad litteram the lol model but instead they can find ways of implementing f2p in sc2 while still making a profit.They have made steps in this direction with the recent spawning feature which will basicly allow players who do not own the game to play certain feature such as team maps and custom maps(which are by fr what most casua players play).I personally believe it is a step in the right direction which could have been done form the beggining considering bw already had such a feature. Regarding the 100 page thread thingy if its constructive criticism why not allow it.it doesnt hurt at all and maybe they can get some positive feedback.after all its free. I think you underestimate how hateful and harmful reading the comments or forums can be for someone making games or anything, really. There are endless discussions among professionals in public fields(casters, writers, producers, developers) and they all say the same thing: "Don't read the comments" Caster, content producers and game developers are not robots. They cannot simply shut of their emotions and ignore everything they read. That is not how people work. Even if there are gems of good advice, there are other ways to get that advice than subjecting yourself to the hate and bile of the internet. That's the worst mind set you can possibly have as someone whose career is built off of the public's perception and reception. As others have mentioned, Riot does a good job of at least reading the comments. They don't need to listen to any of them, but at least give the impression that you care in some way, shape or form. Simply ignoring your audience while saying "haters gonna hate" is going to get them nowhere except behind the companies like Riot which at least give the impression of valuing customer opinions. Yes, and Riot also calls troll and toxic players dumb to their face through the power of math and look at the person's bad history. Riot does an good job and I am sure Blizzard reads the forums, but they don't respond to everything. But every employee doesn't read them. It the difference between someone's agent reading all the fan mail and the star reading all the fan mail. One is better because it provides a filter.
Exactly. If I were Dustin Browder/David Kim and I read the battlenet forums I would need some saintly self control to not go insane and froth at the mouth at the things being suggested/insinuated there.
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I felt valued as a QA tester. We would make lists of the most important gameplay-related issues we had with the game (which isn't what we're testing for the most part, since we're trying to find bugs first and foremost), and those would get compiled and sent to the dev team, and sometimes they would listen and sometimes they wouldn't. That's all we could really ask of them, since they're designing the game and we weren't. We were given plenty of opportunities for overtime (and never forced to work overtime) for 1.5x-2x normal pay. For a summer job home from college, it was awesome. And clearly the work QA did was valued as a not-insignificant number of people I work with now started in QA, as I did.
But like, when it comes to something like ghostcrawler shadowing a game master for a day - that's an absolutely retarded criticism. The designers/programmers at the top of the food chain have incredibly demanding jobs, and he was probably reading emails and taking phone calls all day because he has to. It's incredibly narcissistic for a game master to be like "why is this asshole busy doing his job and ignoring me when he's supposed to be watching me do mine today" - like wtf? That man's time is valuable. That the author chose that story as a point of contention is a perfect illustration of why she is clueless.
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Lemee just say, I had a chance to have lunch with both Dustin Browder and David Kim, and both of them came across as super earnest, likable guys who took what you said seriously, even though I was just an intern at the time. Also, I've interviewed Chris Sigaty in person as press and had a discussion with him after, and he was great too.
So I dunno who he's talking about that comes off as a dick at the SC2 team.
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lol sc2 devs being dicks.. not surprized.
the mere fact that the tools at blizz didnt acknowledge dota and let is slip shows how pathetic they are.
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On June 08 2013 11:00 ShiroKaisen wrote:
Lemee just say, I had a chance to have lunch with both Dustin Browder and David Kim, and both of them came across as super earnest, likable guys who took what you said seriously, even though I was just an intern at the time. Also, I've interviewed Chris Sigaty in person as press and had a discussion with him after, and he was great too.
So I dunno who he's talking about that comes off as a dick at the SC2 team.
It's always about what people want to believe. People who have met them in person will know if they will trust random guy on internet of their own ears and eyes. People who hate Blizzard and SC2 will find ANY opportunity to support their view. Even GC who has reputation for being a dick among WoW fans is spoken nicely of by people who have met him.
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On June 08 2013 10:35 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 10:30 goofyballer wrote:On June 08 2013 10:06 SupLilSon wrote:On June 08 2013 06:23 goofyballer wrote:Hi, video game developer here. On June 06 2013 23:32 Assirra wrote:
This honestly just smells like a fired person venting about his previous employer. Yeah, this is correct. Having worked both as a developer (programmer) now and in QA several years ago - in QA you feel like you guys are the ones spending the most time actually playing the game, and most of you are probably avid gamers in your free time, so dammit, you know games! And it's natural for people in QA to want to play game designer and be like "well I think this feature/unit/whatever would be better if it this part was different". But the reality is, QA is there to test the games, and the dev team is there to design + make them. Dev can (and generally will) take suggestions by QA under consideration, but they're certainly not obligated in any way to leave design decisions up to QA, and as a tester who thinks you know everything about the game you're working on, it can make you kinda bitter when you think you have a great idea and the dev team doesn't listen to you. It's pretty obvious reading through this guy/girl's AMA that he/she's an angry and bitter dude(ette). Looking through some early responses: On June 06 2013 23:28 needcomputer wrote:
Certain professions think they are better than other professions.. A Sc2 dev thinks he is greater than another blizzard employee (not a dev) just like a doctor thinks he is superior to a nurse/pharmacist. On June 06 2013 23:36 SupLilSon wrote:
Wow, thanks for this, really interesting read even though I havent gotten around to finishing it. Not surprised to hear about lots of massive egos within the Blizzard dev teams. I get a sadface seeing people taking all this as gospel from someone who likely had no kind of view into the inner circle of SC2 development whatsoever. I can't read the AMA anymore since it's been deleted, but from the mirror link: BlizzardThrowaway: I’ll say that working with SC2 devs can be challenging because they don’t tend to want to listen to your suggestions. They can also come across as quite dickesh because they feel they can do no wrong. Mind you there are some very nice devs on that team that actually give a shit, but some of the more “esteemed” devs have a superiority complex for sure. Like, wow, yeah, that's because you're a QA tester. Basically encapsulates what I'm saying above perfectly. Was he as much of a self-absorbed asshole in-person as he is on the fourms/on twitter?
BlizzardThrowaway: Oh yes he was. I can tell you a story of this time were our Customer Service department had a new policy where any new hires, no matter what department you were hired into, would have to sit with a Game Master for a few hours and see what it was like to be the face of Blizzard, and how hard our job was. Well they decided to include the executives on this one as well, and one day Ghostcrawler was scheduled to shadow a guy on my team. He basically spent the entire time on his phone texting, checking emails, or just leaving for long periods of time to make phone calls. He was so checked out from the experience that he left early because he was just too good to sit there with lowlife GMs. At least that’s the impression we got. I don't know who ghostcrawler is but I guarantee he's important enough (from how they're talking about him) that sitting around with a game master for several hours is a complete waste of his time. It's not personal, but obviously this employee took it personally. And that's why you guys shouldn't pay attention to this. So basically you are saying the average game development company has a shitty working environment where lots of employees are shunned and ignored. Everyone coming out and saying that these interactions are normal, as well as expected in the gaming industry are just making Blizzard look even worse. Organizational culture is really important to the growth and development of a company. If your testament and others are true, its really not a mystery why Blizzard products have been consistently disappointing compared to their predecessors. What on earth are you talking about? The fact that you and others who claim to have worked in the gaming industry say that QA people are basically bottom of the totem pole and are treated like it. A company striving for strong organizational culture will at least make employees feel valued.
You seem desperate to hate on Blizzard here. At no point did goofyball say that QA's were treated like shit, he said they were treated like QA's. Which they are.
You don't let your QA's design your games, you don't let your designers run your company, you don't let your CEO's work helpdesk. That's what a business is like, and for good reason.
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On June 08 2013 09:50 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 23:31 Wildmoon wrote:On June 07 2013 23:29 _Search_ wrote:I'll say that working with SC2 devs can be challenging because they don't tend to want to listen to your suggestions. They can also come across as quite dickesh because they feel they can do no wrong. Mind you there are some very nice devs on that team that actually give a shit, but some of the more "esteemed" devs have a superiority complex for sure. I really don't understand why this is so surprising. Everything I've seen from Kim/Browder speaks of unquestionable arrogance. DB is really humble judging from various interviews if you ask me. Are you fucking joking? Who has the arrogance to keep adding more shit Blizzard maps to the map pool after years of everyone telling them to switch to tournament maps? Who has the arrogance to tell the community that Terran is balanced while Artosis and Tasteless THEMSELVES are calling it GomTvT? Who has the arrogance to abandon Wings of Liberty altogether 8 months before their new expansion ships, leaving the last 4 or 5 seasons of GSL to nothing but immortal/sentry allins and ZvZs? Who has the arrogance to MAKE A CLOCK THAT DOESNT EVEN RUN ON REAL TIME??!! Anything but absolute contempt is too good for the Blizzard design team.
It must be nice being fourteen years old, possessing only ignorance and an utter incapability to consider perspective and the world greater...
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lol @ the people discrediting the guy because he seems "bitter." If you look at other things he says, he has a positive attitude about other parts of Blizzard. He's specifically calling Ghostcrawler and SC2 dev team dicks, and I can certainly believe they are. I've never seen a group of developers with their heads as far up their own asses as the SC2 core dev team.
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This guy can complain all he wants, but Blizzard is still probably one of the best and most successful game developers of the past 20 years. EA would love to be in their position right now.
There might be an asshole here or there but that's every company. Anyone interested in getting into gaming would be lucky to work at Blizzard or Activision.
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On June 08 2013 10:30 goofyballer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 10:06 SupLilSon wrote:On June 08 2013 06:23 goofyballer wrote:Hi, video game developer here. On June 06 2013 23:32 Assirra wrote:
This honestly just smells like a fired person venting about his previous employer. Yeah, this is correct. Having worked both as a developer (programmer) now and in QA several years ago - in QA you feel like you guys are the ones spending the most time actually playing the game, and most of you are probably avid gamers in your free time, so dammit, you know games! And it's natural for people in QA to want to play game designer and be like "well I think this feature/unit/whatever would be better if it this part was different". But the reality is, QA is there to test the games, and the dev team is there to design + make them. Dev can (and generally will) take suggestions by QA under consideration, but they're certainly not obligated in any way to leave design decisions up to QA, and as a tester who thinks you know everything about the game you're working on, it can make you kinda bitter when you think you have a great idea and the dev team doesn't listen to you. It's pretty obvious reading through this guy/girl's AMA that he/she's an angry and bitter dude(ette). Looking through some early responses: On June 06 2013 23:28 needcomputer wrote:
Certain professions think they are better than other professions.. A Sc2 dev thinks he is greater than another blizzard employee (not a dev) just like a doctor thinks he is superior to a nurse/pharmacist. On June 06 2013 23:36 SupLilSon wrote:
Wow, thanks for this, really interesting read even though I havent gotten around to finishing it. Not surprised to hear about lots of massive egos within the Blizzard dev teams. I get a sadface seeing people taking all this as gospel from someone who likely had no kind of view into the inner circle of SC2 development whatsoever. I can't read the AMA anymore since it's been deleted, but from the mirror link: BlizzardThrowaway: I’ll say that working with SC2 devs can be challenging because they don’t tend to want to listen to your suggestions. They can also come across as quite dickesh because they feel they can do no wrong. Mind you there are some very nice devs on that team that actually give a shit, but some of the more “esteemed” devs have a superiority complex for sure. Like, wow, yeah, that's because you're a QA tester. Basically encapsulates what I'm saying above perfectly. Was he as much of a self-absorbed asshole in-person as he is on the fourms/on twitter?
BlizzardThrowaway: Oh yes he was. I can tell you a story of this time were our Customer Service department had a new policy where any new hires, no matter what department you were hired into, would have to sit with a Game Master for a few hours and see what it was like to be the face of Blizzard, and how hard our job was. Well they decided to include the executives on this one as well, and one day Ghostcrawler was scheduled to shadow a guy on my team. He basically spent the entire time on his phone texting, checking emails, or just leaving for long periods of time to make phone calls. He was so checked out from the experience that he left early because he was just too good to sit there with lowlife GMs. At least that’s the impression we got. I don't know who ghostcrawler is but I guarantee he's important enough (from how they're talking about him) that sitting around with a game master for several hours is a complete waste of his time. It's not personal, but obviously this employee took it personally. And that's why you guys shouldn't pay attention to this. So basically you are saying the average game development company has a shitty working environment where lots of employees are shunned and ignored. Everyone coming out and saying that these interactions are normal, as well as expected in the gaming industry are just making Blizzard look even worse. Organizational culture is really important to the growth and development of a company. If your testament and others are true, its really not a mystery why Blizzard products have been consistently disappointing compared to their predecessors. What on earth are you talking about?
http://www.relationaldynamicsinstitute.com/?p=48
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On June 08 2013 10:28 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 09:50 _Search_ wrote:On June 07 2013 23:31 Wildmoon wrote:On June 07 2013 23:29 _Search_ wrote:I'll say that working with SC2 devs can be challenging because they don't tend to want to listen to your suggestions. They can also come across as quite dickesh because they feel they can do no wrong. Mind you there are some very nice devs on that team that actually give a shit, but some of the more "esteemed" devs have a superiority complex for sure. I really don't understand why this is so surprising. Everything I've seen from Kim/Browder speaks of unquestionable arrogance. DB is really humble judging from various interviews if you ask me. Are you fucking joking? Who has the arrogance to keep adding more shit Blizzard maps to the map pool after years of everyone telling them to switch to tournament maps? Who has the arrogance to tell the community that Terran is balanced while Artosis and Tasteless THEMSELVES are calling it GomTvT? Who has the arrogance to abandon Wings of Liberty altogether 8 months before their new expansion ships, leaving the last 4 or 5 seasons of GSL to nothing but immortal/sentry allins and ZvZs? Who has the arrogance to MAKE A CLOCK THAT DOESNT EVEN RUN ON REAL TIME??!! Anything but absolute contempt is too good for the Blizzard design team. I'm not sure where to start with this one.....I guess I just won't, everything you said was retarded. Hint, maybe the creators of the game know more about it then the community, maybe they understand what makes for a balanced or imbalanced map better than you? Ever think of that...of course you didn't.
Yeah, the creators of the game know more about the game than us, WHICH IS WHY THEY JUST GAVE US KLONTAS MIRE.
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So this person massively dodged questions about Titan, which is something nobody really knows about, despite suggesting they'd been shown bits and pieces of the game... I call BS on this person being legitimate.
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On June 08 2013 10:29 iamho wrote:
Considering that Blizzard has yet to address common complaints about SC2 gameplay that have existed since beta, I'm inclined to believe this person. Its unbelievable that people still defend Blizzard after THREE YEARS.
It's unbelievable how much people take for granted in what Blizzard has given them with SC2. It's like they think Blizzard is actively seeking ways to fuck the community.
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On June 08 2013 14:07 Brett wrote:
So this person massively dodged questions about Titan, which is something nobody really knows about, despite suggesting they'd been shown bits and pieces of the game... I call BS on this person being legitimate.
non-disclosure agreement
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On June 08 2013 10:47 xAdra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2013 01:34 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2013 01:19 SupLilSon wrote:On June 07 2013 01:09 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2013 01:00 theking1 wrote:On June 07 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On June 07 2013 00:40 theking1 wrote:On June 07 2013 00:29 Aberu wrote:On June 07 2013 00:11 theking1 wrote:On June 07 2013 00:06 Gowerly wrote:
[quote]
To be fair have you seen some of the suggestions the community has?
Some places (a couple where I have worked) don't even allow the devs on their forums because
a) it's soul destroying and
b) because the suggestions are largely bad at best and insane at worst
It's ok to listen to a subset of the community, generally the top level players, as they understand things the most. Outside of that, though, you're all crazy.
There is a rule in business staitng the customer is always right.Saying that people who buy your products are wrong and you are better than them is a bit of dangerous for the company.Also listening to the community seems to be working flawlessly for other games develpes such as riot,valve or the dudes behind world of tanks.Why can't blizzard do the same?We're not half as toxic as other communities,most of us have been long time fans aka buyers of blizzard games and when a topic gets like a 100 pages on the forum its most likely a serious issue. That rule is based on how you treat the customers. You treat them AS IF they are right. If "the customer is always right" means "you give every single customer exactly what they want" then every restaurant in the world would have 50 page long menus and be unfeasible to run. Source: Restaurant manager. That saying is fucking ridiculous. You treat them courteously and nicely as if they are right, and you apologize humbly and try to make it up to them if something goes wrong. You treat complaints as 10 times important as compliments. That's the meaning behind that phrase, so tired of people getting this wrong. Or let's apply the customer is always right mindset to games. A new patch every week taht dramatically changes multiple heroes, at many times the labor cost to the development team. Do you think the game would be as popular if they did that every time some SonGoku447UltraZ complained that his favorite hero wasn't OP enough? Gimme a break. i was reffering mostly to serious issues like the ones that cause 100 pages long threads.The issues do not include nerfing heroes but more serious topics such the free to play online features which they have implemented,lack of lan,more customization options such as skins etc etc.Nerfing a hero or race does not raise a 200k pettion like the lack of lan has Also your example with the restaurant is a bit flawed in this context.if a restauran towner receives 100 complains regarding a certaina spect he will most likely change it as he will lose clients.Also I seriously never heard of anyone complaining about restaurants not having 50 page long menus lol.The basic idea is that having such a hardcore fanbase we are most likely different from Songoku44utraz and know what we want(theoretically) and maybe we actually want the good of the game and do not complain for te sake of complaining Free to play is not an option for Blizzard for SC2. It would cost them millions of dollars to create a business model to justify the development cost, create a pricing structure for the content and then sell that content world wide. It has taken Riot years to create that. Also, why would Blizzard chase after Riots success? That is what tons of companies did for WoW and failed. There is no reason for Blizzard to change their plans just because someone else is making money on another game. The demands for F2P are being made by people who don’t understand how the industry works or just assume that F2P is easy. And a lot of people being outraged or upset about something on the internet it not good feedback or a reason to change things. A 100 page thread means that enough people posted world wide to make the thread 100 pages. At 20 posts a page or so, that is around 20,000 posts. At maximum that is 20K people (which is unlikely) world wide that decided to post about that thing. That is like getting 20K likes on facebook, which isn’t super meaningful. Just because a lot of people are willing to post about something doesn’t mean its important. It just means they were willing to take 1-5 minutes to post something. I disagree with you on that.Blizzard does not need to copy ad litteram the lol model but instead they can find ways of implementing f2p in sc2 while still making a profit.They have made steps in this direction with the recent spawning feature which will basicly allow players who do not own the game to play certain feature such as team maps and custom maps(which are by fr what most casua players play).I personally believe it is a step in the right direction which could have been done form the beggining considering bw already had such a feature. Regarding the 100 page thread thingy if its constructive criticism why not allow it.it doesnt hurt at all and maybe they can get some positive feedback.after all its free. I think you underestimate how hateful and harmful reading the comments or forums can be for someone making games or anything, really. There are endless discussions among professionals in public fields(casters, writers, producers, developers) and they all say the same thing: "Don't read the comments" Caster, content producers and game developers are not robots. They cannot simply shut of their emotions and ignore everything they read. That is not how people work. Even if there are gems of good advice, there are other ways to get that advice than subjecting yourself to the hate and bile of the internet. That's the worst mind set you can possibly have as someone whose career is built off of the public's perception and reception. As others have mentioned, Riot does a good job of at least reading the comments. They don't need to listen to any of them, but at least give the impression that you care in some way, shape or form. Simply ignoring your audience while saying "haters gonna hate" is going to get them nowhere except behind the companies like Riot which at least give the impression of valuing customer opinions. Yes, and Riot also calls troll and toxic players dumb to their face through the power of math and look at the person's bad history. Riot does an good job and I am sure Blizzard reads the forums, but they don't respond to everything. But every employee doesn't read them. It the difference between someone's agent reading all the fan mail and the star reading all the fan mail. One is better because it provides a filter. Exactly. If I were Dustin Browder/David Kim and I read the battlenet forums I would need some saintly self control to not go insane and froth at the mouth at the things being suggested/insinuated there.
The problem of Blizzard forums is that Idiots are given free reign to spin their idiocies ... because it is either too expensive to have a decent team of moderators OR they simply dont care. Since there are a lot of kids playing these games you get a big heap of immature and impolite idiots who need to learn forum etiquette first. Since Blizzard doesnt educate its customers their forums are what they are.
Teamliquid and Elitist Jerks are about the only well moderated forums I know, but Blizzard would need to have a firm hand with their immature customer base to keep their forums civil. Since they dont bother to react immediately to hackers in any of their games I think they have more of a "We have their mone, so why bother keeping things tidy?" attitude.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On June 08 2013 14:15 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 10:29 iamho wrote:
Considering that Blizzard has yet to address common complaints about SC2 gameplay that have existed since beta, I'm inclined to believe this person. Its unbelievable that people still defend Blizzard after THREE YEARS. It's unbelievable how much people take for granted in what Blizzard has given them with SC2. It's like they think Blizzard is actively seeking ways to fuck the community.
well compare sc2 and BW and you can see where most complaints come from
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On June 08 2013 14:44 amazingxkcd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 14:15 rd wrote:On June 08 2013 10:29 iamho wrote:
Considering that Blizzard has yet to address common complaints about SC2 gameplay that have existed since beta, I'm inclined to believe this person. Its unbelievable that people still defend Blizzard after THREE YEARS. It's unbelievable how much people take for granted in what Blizzard has given them with SC2. It's like they think Blizzard is actively seeking ways to fuck the community. well compare sc2 and BW and you can see where most complaints come from
I've never even conceived comparing the two titles. Thanks for the suggestion -- I'll hop RIGHT on that.
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