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lol, i think this thread should be closed. OP was just talking about the upcoming patch, right? now it's a qq fest.
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On May 11 2013 18:06 Chocobo wrote:
Yep. Kinda like how mines are cost efficient vs everything zerg has in the first 15-20 minutes of the game.
Erhm, no.
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On May 11 2013 19:26 Cirqueenflex wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 18:41 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:
It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. "Suck it up and L2P" is just as silly and tiresome as the "everything I lose to is imbalanced" whiners. It adds nothing to the conversation, it makes no claim about balance, it adds nothing to the specific situations being discussed. BTW there are a lot of players who are "learning to play" and trying to improve against these strats every day. The issue is that despite our best efforts, it doesn't lead to anything. This isn't "wahh I lost, make it easier for me". It's "I am practicing for hours and hours and still getting destroyed no matter what I try". You could specifically tell me that you're using the same bio+mine build, with the same strategy and same attack timings, for 20 games in a row and I would still lose over 2/3 of the time (assuming I play for a macro game). Like the final months of WoL where protoss would always choose one allin or another in PvZ because there's so little hope if the game goes longer than 10 minutes... that's what ZvT is like now. while the game may not be imbalanced, it still is frustrating to play (and a game should not be frustrating to play but fun instead) technically you can micro against widow mines (until terrans figure out that you can hold and aim them -.-),
That is more a theoretical ability than a practical one. Why do you think even pro's rather unburrow than do that? It is a ridiculously micro intensive way to prevent them from firing and only possible really early in the game when for example a ling pokes your wall off. And aiming them is just pretty much impossible when we are talking about more than 2 mines and you don't want ridiculous overkill.
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What change? I don't see it???
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On May 11 2013 19:47 sinigang wrote:
lol, i think this thread should be closed. OP was just talking about the upcoming patch, right? now it's a qq fest.
those threads always are. When there are real changes, some people will complain about them because "something changes for me, and though I agree that something has to be changed, don't make it so that it actually influences something".
And when there are none, people complain about "all the issues" blizzard hasn't dealt with yet.
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On May 11 2013 19:49 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 19:26 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 18:41 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:
It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. "Suck it up and L2P" is just as silly and tiresome as the "everything I lose to is imbalanced" whiners. It adds nothing to the conversation, it makes no claim about balance, it adds nothing to the specific situations being discussed. BTW there are a lot of players who are "learning to play" and trying to improve against these strats every day. The issue is that despite our best efforts, it doesn't lead to anything. This isn't "wahh I lost, make it easier for me". It's "I am practicing for hours and hours and still getting destroyed no matter what I try". You could specifically tell me that you're using the same bio+mine build, with the same strategy and same attack timings, for 20 games in a row and I would still lose over 2/3 of the time (assuming I play for a macro game). Like the final months of WoL where protoss would always choose one allin or another in PvZ because there's so little hope if the game goes longer than 10 minutes... that's what ZvT is like now. while the game may not be imbalanced, it still is frustrating to play (and a game should not be frustrating to play but fun instead) technically you can micro against widow mines (until terrans figure out that you can hold and aim them -.-), That is more a theoretical ability than a practical one. Why do you think even pro's rather unburrow than do that? It is a ridiculously micro intensive way to prevent them from firing and only possible really early in the game when for example a ling pokes your wall off. And aiming them is just pretty much impossible when we are talking about more than 2 mines and you don't want ridiculous overkill.
no need for ridiculous overkill. As far as I know they stop shooting and start aiming once you select a new target, even if that target is out of reach. And when you tell them to attack a target that is out of reach they start to attack the closest target, which should be fine in most cases if you held them long enough to ignore the first ling poking in. So yeah, both holding and targetting is tough to control, but doing either one should be enough to get quite the advantage. And I wouldn't mind overkilling a mutalisk if the splash kills the other 10.
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On May 11 2013 19:54 Cirqueenflex wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 19:49 Sissors wrote:On May 11 2013 19:26 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 18:41 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:
It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. "Suck it up and L2P" is just as silly and tiresome as the "everything I lose to is imbalanced" whiners. It adds nothing to the conversation, it makes no claim about balance, it adds nothing to the specific situations being discussed. BTW there are a lot of players who are "learning to play" and trying to improve against these strats every day. The issue is that despite our best efforts, it doesn't lead to anything. This isn't "wahh I lost, make it easier for me". It's "I am practicing for hours and hours and still getting destroyed no matter what I try". You could specifically tell me that you're using the same bio+mine build, with the same strategy and same attack timings, for 20 games in a row and I would still lose over 2/3 of the time (assuming I play for a macro game). Like the final months of WoL where protoss would always choose one allin or another in PvZ because there's so little hope if the game goes longer than 10 minutes... that's what ZvT is like now. while the game may not be imbalanced, it still is frustrating to play (and a game should not be frustrating to play but fun instead) technically you can micro against widow mines (until terrans figure out that you can hold and aim them -.-), That is more a theoretical ability than a practical one. Why do you think even pro's rather unburrow than do that? It is a ridiculously micro intensive way to prevent them from firing and only possible really early in the game when for example a ling pokes your wall off. And aiming them is just pretty much impossible when we are talking about more than 2 mines and you don't want ridiculous overkill. no need for ridiculous overkill. As far as I know they stop shooting and start aiming once you select a new target, even if that target is out of reach. And when you tell them to attack a target that is out of reach they start to attack the closest target, which should be fine in most cases if you held them long enough to ignore the first ling poking in. So yeah, both holding and targetting is tough to control, but doing either one should be enough to get quite the advantage. And I wouldn't mind overkilling a mutalisk if the splash kills the other 10.
And meanwhile, the MM splits/stutters by itself. The problem is not if it's possible, but it is just not worth it for the most part.
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On May 11 2013 19:57 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 19:54 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 19:49 Sissors wrote:On May 11 2013 19:26 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 18:41 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:
It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. "Suck it up and L2P" is just as silly and tiresome as the "everything I lose to is imbalanced" whiners. It adds nothing to the conversation, it makes no claim about balance, it adds nothing to the specific situations being discussed. BTW there are a lot of players who are "learning to play" and trying to improve against these strats every day. The issue is that despite our best efforts, it doesn't lead to anything. This isn't "wahh I lost, make it easier for me". It's "I am practicing for hours and hours and still getting destroyed no matter what I try". You could specifically tell me that you're using the same bio+mine build, with the same strategy and same attack timings, for 20 games in a row and I would still lose over 2/3 of the time (assuming I play for a macro game). Like the final months of WoL where protoss would always choose one allin or another in PvZ because there's so little hope if the game goes longer than 10 minutes... that's what ZvT is like now. while the game may not be imbalanced, it still is frustrating to play (and a game should not be frustrating to play but fun instead) technically you can micro against widow mines (until terrans figure out that you can hold and aim them -.-), That is more a theoretical ability than a practical one. Why do you think even pro's rather unburrow than do that? It is a ridiculously micro intensive way to prevent them from firing and only possible really early in the game when for example a ling pokes your wall off. And aiming them is just pretty much impossible when we are talking about more than 2 mines and you don't want ridiculous overkill. no need for ridiculous overkill. As far as I know they stop shooting and start aiming once you select a new target, even if that target is out of reach. And when you tell them to attack a target that is out of reach they start to attack the closest target, which should be fine in most cases if you held them long enough to ignore the first ling poking in. So yeah, both holding and targetting is tough to control, but doing either one should be enough to get quite the advantage. And I wouldn't mind overkilling a mutalisk if the splash kills the other 10. And meanwhile, the MM splits/stutters by itself. The problem is not if it's possible, but it is just not worth it for the most part.
fair point, but while in many mid game engagements it is more important to save the marines from your own widow mine shots by running away from zerglings, there are also a lot of situations where you are in the comfortable situation to be able to micro your mines (for example against an early game push with 1-2 zerglings running up your ramp trying to trigger your 2 widow mines to allow the 8 banelings to crush you; or when you lose a pack of marines mid game and the zerg army starts running through your widow mine field that is set up to protect you in case your marine push fails). Also I'm really sorry if that was the most important thing for you to take away from my huge wall of text, maybe I failed to make myself clear enough.
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I still think that hellbats should be changed in a way. Im not quite sure in which but they have to change.
We all know that mines are quite strong atm but wouldn't increasing overseer detection range a bit help alot with detecting mines? Right now if you don't watch your army and every part of it the whole time, you have a big change of losing 25 lings in 1 shot. I feel that increasing overseer detection range would help a little bit with this and not really nerfing the mine directly
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On May 11 2013 18:25 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:On May 11 2013 13:57 _Search_ wrote:On May 11 2013 04:27 tuho12345 wrote:On May 11 2013 01:03 Greendotz wrote:On May 10 2013 10:04 avilo wrote:
For the most part right now they made a good decision to leave everything alone. The game is near perfect balance at the moment.
...
Beyond build order openings, the game is perfectly balanced.
...
That's about it though. GJ on them on seeing how players develop the metagame further. Wow, never thought I'd see the day. I know right? From avilo?? Well all we need now is IdrA to admit it lol Of course he doesn't want anything changed. Terran is ridiculously overpowered right now. So disgusted that they're not fixing TvZ. A bit of history: it took about 8 months for the zergs to fully acknowledge the possibilities that opened for them once the queen+overlord patch kicked in. After these 8 months dominated almost every tournament in the world. Right now we are two months into HotS. The zergs won MLG, they won Dreamhack, they have half of the spots in GSL CodeS ro8. And what do they say? "Terran is overpowered". Are you serious? It takes way more time for the Z's to figure out new strategies and adapt to new micro requirements. It took 8 months for z's in WoL to adapt to a simple change affecting two units. It's dazzling how after just 2 months of HotS and great tournament results we have the "nerf T"! chant all over the place. It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. That is exactly the problem right now. Imagine player JhonnyMaster. He was a high master zerg in WOL. He went infestor + ling bling into broodlord infestor corruptor, terrans had a hard time against it. Everyone agreed that in a game between 2 players with the same skill level, the zerg had an advantage. But for JhonnyMaster it was all fine and dandy. Now JhonnyMaster plays HOTS. His race became harder (now he finally has to micro as hard as the terran) and now the 2 players with the same skill level have the same chance to win the game. What does this mean? - JhonnyMaster will lose more against the players he owned before. - JhonnyMaster, who thought wol was all fine and dandy, is confused. - JhonnyMaster blames imbalance. I mean, the terran has a chance now. That is unacceptable. He wants his old 80% winrate in zvt back. I almost never see vipers in TvZ. They don't even try it. No swarmhosts (and when some genius uses them against me, I lose every single time). No constant banelingbombs with the speedlords. No banelingburrows everywhere on the map. No infestors. Zergs also forgot to make spines & spores, like they did in WOL, REMEMBER?
Couldn't have said it better myself. Sums things up quite well.
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On May 11 2013 19:54 Cirqueenflex wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 19:49 Sissors wrote:On May 11 2013 19:26 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 18:41 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:
It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. "Suck it up and L2P" is just as silly and tiresome as the "everything I lose to is imbalanced" whiners. It adds nothing to the conversation, it makes no claim about balance, it adds nothing to the specific situations being discussed. BTW there are a lot of players who are "learning to play" and trying to improve against these strats every day. The issue is that despite our best efforts, it doesn't lead to anything. This isn't "wahh I lost, make it easier for me". It's "I am practicing for hours and hours and still getting destroyed no matter what I try". You could specifically tell me that you're using the same bio+mine build, with the same strategy and same attack timings, for 20 games in a row and I would still lose over 2/3 of the time (assuming I play for a macro game). Like the final months of WoL where protoss would always choose one allin or another in PvZ because there's so little hope if the game goes longer than 10 minutes... that's what ZvT is like now. while the game may not be imbalanced, it still is frustrating to play (and a game should not be frustrating to play but fun instead) technically you can micro against widow mines (until terrans figure out that you can hold and aim them -.-), That is more a theoretical ability than a practical one. Why do you think even pro's rather unburrow than do that? It is a ridiculously micro intensive way to prevent them from firing and only possible really early in the game when for example a ling pokes your wall off. And aiming them is just pretty much impossible when we are talking about more than 2 mines and you don't want ridiculous overkill. no need for ridiculous overkill. As far as I know they stop shooting and start aiming once you select a new target, even if that target is out of reach. And when you tell them to attack a target that is out of reach they start to attack the closest target, which should be fine in most cases if you held them long enough to ignore the first ling poking in. So yeah, both holding and targetting is tough to control, but doing either one should be enough to get quite the advantage. And I wouldn't mind overkilling a mutalisk if the splash kills the other 10.
Letting them attack the closest target is not my definition of targeting them though.
So what we have left then is holding them, which is indeed possible, but unburrowing them is simply alot easier and generally way preferable since otherwise your other units die horribly.
And that you want that we also get other stuff from your text wall, I disagree that fungal can't counter banelings anymore. With practise you should still be able to fungal them, but you have to learn how far ahead of them you need to cast it. But in general quite frankly, you use alot of words without actually saying much there, which is why I at least have little to comment on it.
@Rainman, 11 detection range isn't sufficient?
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On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 13:57 _Search_ wrote:On May 11 2013 04:27 tuho12345 wrote:On May 11 2013 01:03 Greendotz wrote:On May 10 2013 10:04 avilo wrote:
For the most part right now they made a good decision to leave everything alone. The game is near perfect balance at the moment.
...
Beyond build order openings, the game is perfectly balanced.
...
That's about it though. GJ on them on seeing how players develop the metagame further. Wow, never thought I'd see the day. I know right? From avilo?? Well all we need now is IdrA to admit it lol Of course he doesn't want anything changed. Terran is ridiculously overpowered right now. So disgusted that they're not fixing TvZ. A bit of history: it took about 8 months for the zergs to fully acknowledge the possibilities that opened for them once the queen+overlord patch kicked in. After these 8 months dominated almost every tournament in the world. Right now we are two months into HotS. The zergs won MLG, they won Dreamhack, they have half of the spots in GSL CodeS ro8. And what do they say? "Terran is overpowered". Are you serious? It takes way more time for the Z's to figure out new strategies and adapt to new micro requirements. It took 8 months for z's in WoL to adapt to a simple change affecting two units. It's dazzling how after just 2 months of HotS and great tournament results we have the "nerf T"! chant all over the place. It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did.
It's funny when people "remember" things, it actually took about a couple of months for ZvT to favor Z.
http://aligulac.com/reports/
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On May 11 2013 20:06 Cirqueenflex wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 19:57 Godwrath wrote:On May 11 2013 19:54 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 19:49 Sissors wrote:On May 11 2013 19:26 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 18:41 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:
It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. "Suck it up and L2P" is just as silly and tiresome as the "everything I lose to is imbalanced" whiners. It adds nothing to the conversation, it makes no claim about balance, it adds nothing to the specific situations being discussed. BTW there are a lot of players who are "learning to play" and trying to improve against these strats every day. The issue is that despite our best efforts, it doesn't lead to anything. This isn't "wahh I lost, make it easier for me". It's "I am practicing for hours and hours and still getting destroyed no matter what I try". You could specifically tell me that you're using the same bio+mine build, with the same strategy and same attack timings, for 20 games in a row and I would still lose over 2/3 of the time (assuming I play for a macro game). Like the final months of WoL where protoss would always choose one allin or another in PvZ because there's so little hope if the game goes longer than 10 minutes... that's what ZvT is like now. while the game may not be imbalanced, it still is frustrating to play (and a game should not be frustrating to play but fun instead) technically you can micro against widow mines (until terrans figure out that you can hold and aim them -.-), That is more a theoretical ability than a practical one. Why do you think even pro's rather unburrow than do that? It is a ridiculously micro intensive way to prevent them from firing and only possible really early in the game when for example a ling pokes your wall off. And aiming them is just pretty much impossible when we are talking about more than 2 mines and you don't want ridiculous overkill. no need for ridiculous overkill. As far as I know they stop shooting and start aiming once you select a new target, even if that target is out of reach. And when you tell them to attack a target that is out of reach they start to attack the closest target, which should be fine in most cases if you held them long enough to ignore the first ling poking in. So yeah, both holding and targetting is tough to control, but doing either one should be enough to get quite the advantage. And I wouldn't mind overkilling a mutalisk if the splash kills the other 10. And meanwhile, the MM splits/stutters by itself. The problem is not if it's possible, but it is just not worth it for the most part. fair point, but while in many mid game engagements it is more important to save the marines from your own widow mine shots by running away from zerglings, there are also a lot of situations where you are in the comfortable situation to be able to micro your mines (for example against an early game push with 1-2 zerglings running up your ramp trying to trigger your 2 widow mines to allow the 8 banelings to crush you; or when you lose a pack of marines mid game and the zerg army starts running through your widow mine field that is set up to protect you in case your marine push fails). Also I'm really sorry if that was the most important thing for you to take away from my huge wall of text, maybe I failed to make myself clear enough.
I didn't say it's not worth it all the time, but it is highly situational as you clearly see, when engagement occurs, you will want to be microin'g your bio because there are banelings, ultras and/or infestors. It's as simple as that, there are only a few things one can do at the same time. Chocobo for example is speaking about how hard is to deal with new players with mines. That's true for oracles, banelings, hellbat drops, etc... units which require reactive or preemptive micro from your opponent you will find them to be "OP" if we try to compare it to how they work on the progamer scene. And that's a bad way to look at it because it's like trying to balance two different games.
People "trying" to get better playing builds of the progamers must accept they will lose to silly stuff. It's how it is until you get better and better. If you want to win, abuse the units that expose the most your opponent's skill level weakness. In lower lower league, that's just macro 
On May 11 2013 22:10 sibs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:On May 11 2013 13:57 _Search_ wrote:On May 11 2013 04:27 tuho12345 wrote:On May 11 2013 01:03 Greendotz wrote:On May 10 2013 10:04 avilo wrote:
For the most part right now they made a good decision to leave everything alone. The game is near perfect balance at the moment.
...
Beyond build order openings, the game is perfectly balanced.
...
That's about it though. GJ on them on seeing how players develop the metagame further. Wow, never thought I'd see the day. I know right? From avilo?? Well all we need now is IdrA to admit it lol Of course he doesn't want anything changed. Terran is ridiculously overpowered right now. So disgusted that they're not fixing TvZ. A bit of history: it took about 8 months for the zergs to fully acknowledge the possibilities that opened for them once the queen+overlord patch kicked in. After these 8 months dominated almost every tournament in the world. Right now we are two months into HotS. The zergs won MLG, they won Dreamhack, they have half of the spots in GSL CodeS ro8. And what do they say? "Terran is overpowered". Are you serious? It takes way more time for the Z's to figure out new strategies and adapt to new micro requirements. It took 8 months for z's in WoL to adapt to a simple change affecting two units. It's dazzling how after just 2 months of HotS and great tournament results we have the "nerf T"! chant all over the place. It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. It's funny when people "remember" things, it actually took about a couple of months for ZvT to favor Z. http://aligulac.com/reports/
You should look at your own link. Not only it appears as favored the whole time from may on, but there is only one point where it's at a 48.9%, and that was the month of taeja and his crazy TvZ winrate.
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On May 11 2013 20:20 Rainmansc wrote:
I still think that hellbats should be changed in a way. Im not quite sure in which but they have to change.
We all know that mines are quite strong atm but wouldn't increasing overseer detection range a bit help alot with detecting mines? Right now if you don't watch your army and every part of it the whole time, you have a big change of losing 25 lings in 1 shot. I feel that increasing overseer detection range would help a little bit with this and not really nerfing the mine directly
Well, you know, same as with Terran who can for one second leave view form his army and lost it due to zerg surrond.
Blizz did a good job with mines, it forces opponents to actually micro their armies.
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Seriously whats the purpose of this thread, unless a top 5 grandmaster posts i seen no posts of any kind in it that are worth reading, its all just QQ about a change that may or may not happen.
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On May 11 2013 22:14 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 20:06 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 19:57 Godwrath wrote:On May 11 2013 19:54 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 19:49 Sissors wrote:On May 11 2013 19:26 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 18:41 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:
It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. "Suck it up and L2P" is just as silly and tiresome as the "everything I lose to is imbalanced" whiners. It adds nothing to the conversation, it makes no claim about balance, it adds nothing to the specific situations being discussed. BTW there are a lot of players who are "learning to play" and trying to improve against these strats every day. The issue is that despite our best efforts, it doesn't lead to anything. This isn't "wahh I lost, make it easier for me". It's "I am practicing for hours and hours and still getting destroyed no matter what I try". You could specifically tell me that you're using the same bio+mine build, with the same strategy and same attack timings, for 20 games in a row and I would still lose over 2/3 of the time (assuming I play for a macro game). Like the final months of WoL where protoss would always choose one allin or another in PvZ because there's so little hope if the game goes longer than 10 minutes... that's what ZvT is like now. while the game may not be imbalanced, it still is frustrating to play (and a game should not be frustrating to play but fun instead) technically you can micro against widow mines (until terrans figure out that you can hold and aim them -.-), That is more a theoretical ability than a practical one. Why do you think even pro's rather unburrow than do that? It is a ridiculously micro intensive way to prevent them from firing and only possible really early in the game when for example a ling pokes your wall off. And aiming them is just pretty much impossible when we are talking about more than 2 mines and you don't want ridiculous overkill. no need for ridiculous overkill. As far as I know they stop shooting and start aiming once you select a new target, even if that target is out of reach. And when you tell them to attack a target that is out of reach they start to attack the closest target, which should be fine in most cases if you held them long enough to ignore the first ling poking in. So yeah, both holding and targetting is tough to control, but doing either one should be enough to get quite the advantage. And I wouldn't mind overkilling a mutalisk if the splash kills the other 10. And meanwhile, the MM splits/stutters by itself. The problem is not if it's possible, but it is just not worth it for the most part. fair point, but while in many mid game engagements it is more important to save the marines from your own widow mine shots by running away from zerglings, there are also a lot of situations where you are in the comfortable situation to be able to micro your mines (for example against an early game push with 1-2 zerglings running up your ramp trying to trigger your 2 widow mines to allow the 8 banelings to crush you; or when you lose a pack of marines mid game and the zerg army starts running through your widow mine field that is set up to protect you in case your marine push fails). Also I'm really sorry if that was the most important thing for you to take away from my huge wall of text, maybe I failed to make myself clear enough. I didn't say it's not worth it all the time, but it is highly situational as you clearly see, when engagement occurs, you will want to be microin'g your bio because there are banelings, ultras and/or infestors. It's as simple as that, there are only a few things one can do at the same time. Chocobo for example is speaking about how hard is to deal with new players with mines. That's true for oracles, banelings, hellbat drops, etc... units which require reactive or preemptive micro from your opponent you will find them to be "OP" if we try to compare it to how they work on the progamer scene. And that's a bad way to look at it because it's like trying to balance two different games. People "trying" to get better playing builds of the progamers must accept they will lose to silly stuff. It's how it is until you get better and better. If you want to win, abuse the units that expose the most your opponent's skill level weakness. In lower lower league, that's just macro Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 22:10 sibs wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:On May 11 2013 13:57 _Search_ wrote:On May 11 2013 04:27 tuho12345 wrote:On May 11 2013 01:03 Greendotz wrote:On May 10 2013 10:04 avilo wrote:
For the most part right now they made a good decision to leave everything alone. The game is near perfect balance at the moment.
...
Beyond build order openings, the game is perfectly balanced.
...
That's about it though. GJ on them on seeing how players develop the metagame further. Wow, never thought I'd see the day. I know right? From avilo?? Well all we need now is IdrA to admit it lol Of course he doesn't want anything changed. Terran is ridiculously overpowered right now. So disgusted that they're not fixing TvZ. A bit of history: it took about 8 months for the zergs to fully acknowledge the possibilities that opened for them once the queen+overlord patch kicked in. After these 8 months dominated almost every tournament in the world. Right now we are two months into HotS. The zergs won MLG, they won Dreamhack, they have half of the spots in GSL CodeS ro8. And what do they say? "Terran is overpowered". Are you serious? It takes way more time for the Z's to figure out new strategies and adapt to new micro requirements. It took 8 months for z's in WoL to adapt to a simple change affecting two units. It's dazzling how after just 2 months of HotS and great tournament results we have the "nerf T"! chant all over the place. It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. It's funny when people "remember" things, it actually took about a couple of months for ZvT to favor Z. http://aligulac.com/reports/ You should look at your own link. Not only it appears as favored the whole time from may on, but there is only one point where it's at a 48.9%, and that was the month of taeja and his crazy TvZ winrate.
Yea? So you're agreeing with me and telling me to look at my own link again? I don't understand.
|
On May 11 2013 22:46 sibs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 22:14 Godwrath wrote:On May 11 2013 20:06 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 19:57 Godwrath wrote:On May 11 2013 19:54 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 19:49 Sissors wrote:On May 11 2013 19:26 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 18:41 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:
It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. "Suck it up and L2P" is just as silly and tiresome as the "everything I lose to is imbalanced" whiners. It adds nothing to the conversation, it makes no claim about balance, it adds nothing to the specific situations being discussed. BTW there are a lot of players who are "learning to play" and trying to improve against these strats every day. The issue is that despite our best efforts, it doesn't lead to anything. This isn't "wahh I lost, make it easier for me". It's "I am practicing for hours and hours and still getting destroyed no matter what I try". You could specifically tell me that you're using the same bio+mine build, with the same strategy and same attack timings, for 20 games in a row and I would still lose over 2/3 of the time (assuming I play for a macro game). Like the final months of WoL where protoss would always choose one allin or another in PvZ because there's so little hope if the game goes longer than 10 minutes... that's what ZvT is like now. while the game may not be imbalanced, it still is frustrating to play (and a game should not be frustrating to play but fun instead) technically you can micro against widow mines (until terrans figure out that you can hold and aim them -.-), That is more a theoretical ability than a practical one. Why do you think even pro's rather unburrow than do that? It is a ridiculously micro intensive way to prevent them from firing and only possible really early in the game when for example a ling pokes your wall off. And aiming them is just pretty much impossible when we are talking about more than 2 mines and you don't want ridiculous overkill. no need for ridiculous overkill. As far as I know they stop shooting and start aiming once you select a new target, even if that target is out of reach. And when you tell them to attack a target that is out of reach they start to attack the closest target, which should be fine in most cases if you held them long enough to ignore the first ling poking in. So yeah, both holding and targetting is tough to control, but doing either one should be enough to get quite the advantage. And I wouldn't mind overkilling a mutalisk if the splash kills the other 10. And meanwhile, the MM splits/stutters by itself. The problem is not if it's possible, but it is just not worth it for the most part. fair point, but while in many mid game engagements it is more important to save the marines from your own widow mine shots by running away from zerglings, there are also a lot of situations where you are in the comfortable situation to be able to micro your mines (for example against an early game push with 1-2 zerglings running up your ramp trying to trigger your 2 widow mines to allow the 8 banelings to crush you; or when you lose a pack of marines mid game and the zerg army starts running through your widow mine field that is set up to protect you in case your marine push fails). Also I'm really sorry if that was the most important thing for you to take away from my huge wall of text, maybe I failed to make myself clear enough. I didn't say it's not worth it all the time, but it is highly situational as you clearly see, when engagement occurs, you will want to be microin'g your bio because there are banelings, ultras and/or infestors. It's as simple as that, there are only a few things one can do at the same time. Chocobo for example is speaking about how hard is to deal with new players with mines. That's true for oracles, banelings, hellbat drops, etc... units which require reactive or preemptive micro from your opponent you will find them to be "OP" if we try to compare it to how they work on the progamer scene. And that's a bad way to look at it because it's like trying to balance two different games. People "trying" to get better playing builds of the progamers must accept they will lose to silly stuff. It's how it is until you get better and better. If you want to win, abuse the units that expose the most your opponent's skill level weakness. In lower lower league, that's just macro On May 11 2013 22:10 sibs wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:On May 11 2013 13:57 _Search_ wrote:On May 11 2013 04:27 tuho12345 wrote:On May 11 2013 01:03 Greendotz wrote:On May 10 2013 10:04 avilo wrote:
For the most part right now they made a good decision to leave everything alone. The game is near perfect balance at the moment.
...
Beyond build order openings, the game is perfectly balanced.
...
That's about it though. GJ on them on seeing how players develop the metagame further. Wow, never thought I'd see the day. I know right? From avilo?? Well all we need now is IdrA to admit it lol Of course he doesn't want anything changed. Terran is ridiculously overpowered right now. So disgusted that they're not fixing TvZ. A bit of history: it took about 8 months for the zergs to fully acknowledge the possibilities that opened for them once the queen+overlord patch kicked in. After these 8 months dominated almost every tournament in the world. Right now we are two months into HotS. The zergs won MLG, they won Dreamhack, they have half of the spots in GSL CodeS ro8. And what do they say? "Terran is overpowered". Are you serious? It takes way more time for the Z's to figure out new strategies and adapt to new micro requirements. It took 8 months for z's in WoL to adapt to a simple change affecting two units. It's dazzling how after just 2 months of HotS and great tournament results we have the "nerf T"! chant all over the place. It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. It's funny when people "remember" things, it actually took about a couple of months for ZvT to favor Z. http://aligulac.com/reports/ You should look at your own link. Not only it appears as favored the whole time from may on, but there is only one point where it's at a 48.9%, and that was the month of taeja and his crazy TvZ winrate. Yea? So you're agreeing with me and telling me to look at my own link again? I don't understand.
TvZ became zerg-favored the moment the patch hit. It took 8 more months for the zergs to utterly dominate the whole SC2 tournament scene worldwide. So I'd say that it took 8 months to fully exploit the power of the patch - although some of its effects were immediate.
We are in a similar place right now - the game is balanced at the top, zergs are performing really well and improving.
Meanwhile the players are whining about how unwinnable the matchup is, how difficult it is to micro vs widow mines and that it is so unfair. The dreaded hellion contain of early 2012 was just as unfair, it forced zergs to make units and it was killed with a patch. We moved on to those awful NR15 games, total zerg domination, the community ditching WoL the moment HotS came out and never looking back.
Yes, it would be good to make the game somewhat less frustrating at lower levels etc. But I am not willing to sacrifice top-level balance in favor of my own ladder experience. And it seems that Blizzard thinks alike.
|
On May 11 2013 22:59 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 22:46 sibs wrote:On May 11 2013 22:14 Godwrath wrote:On May 11 2013 20:06 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 19:57 Godwrath wrote:On May 11 2013 19:54 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 19:49 Sissors wrote:On May 11 2013 19:26 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 18:41 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:
It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. "Suck it up and L2P" is just as silly and tiresome as the "everything I lose to is imbalanced" whiners. It adds nothing to the conversation, it makes no claim about balance, it adds nothing to the specific situations being discussed. BTW there are a lot of players who are "learning to play" and trying to improve against these strats every day. The issue is that despite our best efforts, it doesn't lead to anything. This isn't "wahh I lost, make it easier for me". It's "I am practicing for hours and hours and still getting destroyed no matter what I try". You could specifically tell me that you're using the same bio+mine build, with the same strategy and same attack timings, for 20 games in a row and I would still lose over 2/3 of the time (assuming I play for a macro game). Like the final months of WoL where protoss would always choose one allin or another in PvZ because there's so little hope if the game goes longer than 10 minutes... that's what ZvT is like now. while the game may not be imbalanced, it still is frustrating to play (and a game should not be frustrating to play but fun instead) technically you can micro against widow mines (until terrans figure out that you can hold and aim them -.-), That is more a theoretical ability than a practical one. Why do you think even pro's rather unburrow than do that? It is a ridiculously micro intensive way to prevent them from firing and only possible really early in the game when for example a ling pokes your wall off. And aiming them is just pretty much impossible when we are talking about more than 2 mines and you don't want ridiculous overkill. no need for ridiculous overkill. As far as I know they stop shooting and start aiming once you select a new target, even if that target is out of reach. And when you tell them to attack a target that is out of reach they start to attack the closest target, which should be fine in most cases if you held them long enough to ignore the first ling poking in. So yeah, both holding and targetting is tough to control, but doing either one should be enough to get quite the advantage. And I wouldn't mind overkilling a mutalisk if the splash kills the other 10. And meanwhile, the MM splits/stutters by itself. The problem is not if it's possible, but it is just not worth it for the most part. fair point, but while in many mid game engagements it is more important to save the marines from your own widow mine shots by running away from zerglings, there are also a lot of situations where you are in the comfortable situation to be able to micro your mines (for example against an early game push with 1-2 zerglings running up your ramp trying to trigger your 2 widow mines to allow the 8 banelings to crush you; or when you lose a pack of marines mid game and the zerg army starts running through your widow mine field that is set up to protect you in case your marine push fails). Also I'm really sorry if that was the most important thing for you to take away from my huge wall of text, maybe I failed to make myself clear enough. I didn't say it's not worth it all the time, but it is highly situational as you clearly see, when engagement occurs, you will want to be microin'g your bio because there are banelings, ultras and/or infestors. It's as simple as that, there are only a few things one can do at the same time. Chocobo for example is speaking about how hard is to deal with new players with mines. That's true for oracles, banelings, hellbat drops, etc... units which require reactive or preemptive micro from your opponent you will find them to be "OP" if we try to compare it to how they work on the progamer scene. And that's a bad way to look at it because it's like trying to balance two different games. People "trying" to get better playing builds of the progamers must accept they will lose to silly stuff. It's how it is until you get better and better. If you want to win, abuse the units that expose the most your opponent's skill level weakness. In lower lower league, that's just macro On May 11 2013 22:10 sibs wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:On May 11 2013 13:57 _Search_ wrote:On May 11 2013 04:27 tuho12345 wrote:On May 11 2013 01:03 Greendotz wrote:On May 10 2013 10:04 avilo wrote:
For the most part right now they made a good decision to leave everything alone. The game is near perfect balance at the moment.
...
Beyond build order openings, the game is perfectly balanced.
...
That's about it though. GJ on them on seeing how players develop the metagame further. Wow, never thought I'd see the day. I know right? From avilo?? Well all we need now is IdrA to admit it lol Of course he doesn't want anything changed. Terran is ridiculously overpowered right now. So disgusted that they're not fixing TvZ. A bit of history: it took about 8 months for the zergs to fully acknowledge the possibilities that opened for them once the queen+overlord patch kicked in. After these 8 months dominated almost every tournament in the world. Right now we are two months into HotS. The zergs won MLG, they won Dreamhack, they have half of the spots in GSL CodeS ro8. And what do they say? "Terran is overpowered". Are you serious? It takes way more time for the Z's to figure out new strategies and adapt to new micro requirements. It took 8 months for z's in WoL to adapt to a simple change affecting two units. It's dazzling how after just 2 months of HotS and great tournament results we have the "nerf T"! chant all over the place. It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. It's funny when people "remember" things, it actually took about a couple of months for ZvT to favor Z. http://aligulac.com/reports/ You should look at your own link. Not only it appears as favored the whole time from may on, but there is only one point where it's at a 48.9%, and that was the month of taeja and his crazy TvZ winrate. Yea? So you're agreeing with me and telling me to look at my own link again? I don't understand. TvZ became zerg-favored the moment the patch hit. It took 8 more months for the zergs to utterly dominate the whole SC2 tournament scene worldwide. So I'd say that it took 8 months to fully exploit the power of the patch - although some of its effects were immediate. We are in a similar place right now - the game is balanced at the top, zergs are performing really well and improving. Meanwhile the players are whining about how unwinnable the matchup is, how difficult it is to micro vs widow mines and that it is so unfair. The dreaded hellion contain of early 2012 was just as unfair, it forced zergs to make units and it was killed with a patch. We moved on to those awful NR15 games, total zerg domination, the community ditching WoL the moment HotS came out and never looking back. Yes, it would be good to make the game somewhat less frustrating at lower levels etc. But I am not willing to sacrifice top-level balance in favor of my own ladder experience. And it seems that Blizzard thinks alike.
OR, the queen patch wasn't a big deal in the longrun once zergs got really good with infestor play and the game stabilized at a level where you simply knew all the possible timings.
I know you guys love to rant over "the queen patch", but reactored hellion expand would not have been the best opening no matter what in 2013 WoL metagame & maps against people like RoRo/Life/Symbol/Leenock/Soulkey who did not even play those queen builds (hell, Life played macro games based upon 10pool contains) and had not solved 9range Fungal, 3/3 IT problems that Terrans were facing.
Watch Gumiho in Ro16 this season. He was doing reactored hellion expands and going into such oldschool 2011 builds. He got destroyed by Zergs that I actually believe are under his skilllevel. It's simply stupid to assume the game would have looked completly different without that patch.
The matter of the fact is, that there were a ton of coinflippy openings with hellion contains in TvZ at that time and blizzard improved the game by removing those coinflips. The matter of the fact also was, that lategame TvZ was simply Zergfavored queen patch or not, with Infestor/Broodlord countering everything unless the map was extremly antibroodlord (whirlwind, and that map was quite good for a lot of other zerg builds in the midgame) or extremly proterran (metropolis). If you preferred late 2011/early 2012 metagame I'd like you to think about it how the game looked like if it wasn't Jjakji vs Leenock and DRG vs MMA. It was some 2base Terran allin (on the ladder it was mostly marauder/hellion or marine/tank), some two base zerg allin (mostly roach/baneling) or we got just the same as after the patch, just with a later Zerg third and very unpolished 3CC builds that transitioned into some prebroodlord timing.
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On May 11 2013 22:59 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 22:46 sibs wrote:On May 11 2013 22:14 Godwrath wrote:On May 11 2013 20:06 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 19:57 Godwrath wrote:On May 11 2013 19:54 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 19:49 Sissors wrote:On May 11 2013 19:26 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 18:41 Chocobo wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:
It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. "Suck it up and L2P" is just as silly and tiresome as the "everything I lose to is imbalanced" whiners. It adds nothing to the conversation, it makes no claim about balance, it adds nothing to the specific situations being discussed. BTW there are a lot of players who are "learning to play" and trying to improve against these strats every day. The issue is that despite our best efforts, it doesn't lead to anything. This isn't "wahh I lost, make it easier for me". It's "I am practicing for hours and hours and still getting destroyed no matter what I try". You could specifically tell me that you're using the same bio+mine build, with the same strategy and same attack timings, for 20 games in a row and I would still lose over 2/3 of the time (assuming I play for a macro game). Like the final months of WoL where protoss would always choose one allin or another in PvZ because there's so little hope if the game goes longer than 10 minutes... that's what ZvT is like now. while the game may not be imbalanced, it still is frustrating to play (and a game should not be frustrating to play but fun instead) technically you can micro against widow mines (until terrans figure out that you can hold and aim them -.-), That is more a theoretical ability than a practical one. Why do you think even pro's rather unburrow than do that? It is a ridiculously micro intensive way to prevent them from firing and only possible really early in the game when for example a ling pokes your wall off. And aiming them is just pretty much impossible when we are talking about more than 2 mines and you don't want ridiculous overkill. no need for ridiculous overkill. As far as I know they stop shooting and start aiming once you select a new target, even if that target is out of reach. And when you tell them to attack a target that is out of reach they start to attack the closest target, which should be fine in most cases if you held them long enough to ignore the first ling poking in. So yeah, both holding and targetting is tough to control, but doing either one should be enough to get quite the advantage. And I wouldn't mind overkilling a mutalisk if the splash kills the other 10. And meanwhile, the MM splits/stutters by itself. The problem is not if it's possible, but it is just not worth it for the most part. fair point, but while in many mid game engagements it is more important to save the marines from your own widow mine shots by running away from zerglings, there are also a lot of situations where you are in the comfortable situation to be able to micro your mines (for example against an early game push with 1-2 zerglings running up your ramp trying to trigger your 2 widow mines to allow the 8 banelings to crush you; or when you lose a pack of marines mid game and the zerg army starts running through your widow mine field that is set up to protect you in case your marine push fails). Also I'm really sorry if that was the most important thing for you to take away from my huge wall of text, maybe I failed to make myself clear enough. I didn't say it's not worth it all the time, but it is highly situational as you clearly see, when engagement occurs, you will want to be microin'g your bio because there are banelings, ultras and/or infestors. It's as simple as that, there are only a few things one can do at the same time. Chocobo for example is speaking about how hard is to deal with new players with mines. That's true for oracles, banelings, hellbat drops, etc... units which require reactive or preemptive micro from your opponent you will find them to be "OP" if we try to compare it to how they work on the progamer scene. And that's a bad way to look at it because it's like trying to balance two different games. People "trying" to get better playing builds of the progamers must accept they will lose to silly stuff. It's how it is until you get better and better. If you want to win, abuse the units that expose the most your opponent's skill level weakness. In lower lower league, that's just macro On May 11 2013 22:10 sibs wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:On May 11 2013 13:57 _Search_ wrote:On May 11 2013 04:27 tuho12345 wrote:On May 11 2013 01:03 Greendotz wrote:On May 10 2013 10:04 avilo wrote:
For the most part right now they made a good decision to leave everything alone. The game is near perfect balance at the moment.
...
Beyond build order openings, the game is perfectly balanced.
...
That's about it though. GJ on them on seeing how players develop the metagame further. Wow, never thought I'd see the day. I know right? From avilo?? Well all we need now is IdrA to admit it lol Of course he doesn't want anything changed. Terran is ridiculously overpowered right now. So disgusted that they're not fixing TvZ. A bit of history: it took about 8 months for the zergs to fully acknowledge the possibilities that opened for them once the queen+overlord patch kicked in. After these 8 months dominated almost every tournament in the world. Right now we are two months into HotS. The zergs won MLG, they won Dreamhack, they have half of the spots in GSL CodeS ro8. And what do they say? "Terran is overpowered". Are you serious? It takes way more time for the Z's to figure out new strategies and adapt to new micro requirements. It took 8 months for z's in WoL to adapt to a simple change affecting two units. It's dazzling how after just 2 months of HotS and great tournament results we have the "nerf T"! chant all over the place. It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. It's funny when people "remember" things, it actually took about a couple of months for ZvT to favor Z. http://aligulac.com/reports/ You should look at your own link. Not only it appears as favored the whole time from may on, but there is only one point where it's at a 48.9%, and that was the month of taeja and his crazy TvZ winrate. Yea? So you're agreeing with me and telling me to look at my own link again? I don't understand. TvZ became zerg-favored the moment the patch hit. It took 8 more months for the zergs to utterly dominate the whole SC2 tournament scene worldwide. So I'd say that it took 8 months to fully exploit the power of the patch - although some of its effects were immediate. We are in a similar place right now - the game is balanced at the top, zergs are performing really well and improving. Meanwhile the players are whining about how unwinnable the matchup is, how difficult it is to micro vs widow mines and that it is so unfair. The dreaded hellion contain of early 2012 was just as unfair, it forced zergs to make units and it was killed with a patch. We moved on to those awful NR15 games, total zerg domination, the community ditching WoL the moment HotS came out and never looking back. Yes, it would be good to make the game somewhat less frustrating at lower levels etc. But I am not willing to sacrifice top-level balance in favor of my own ladder experience. And it seems that Blizzard thinks alike.
Using individual perfomances and who "wins" a tournament is a really bad way to see if a race is OP or not, fruitdealer and nestea won the first 2 GSL's facing a multitude of "bad" terran player's , yes Z was OP vs T after patch 1.4.3 , that bears no meaning now though, the fact is that Zerg as a race is not performing well, and things are not looking better for Zerg in the future, things are looking a lot better for Protoss if anything.
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On May 11 2013 23:29 sibs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 22:59 scypio wrote:On May 11 2013 22:46 sibs wrote:On May 11 2013 22:14 Godwrath wrote:On May 11 2013 20:06 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 19:57 Godwrath wrote:On May 11 2013 19:54 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 19:49 Sissors wrote:On May 11 2013 19:26 Cirqueenflex wrote:On May 11 2013 18:41 Chocobo wrote:
[quote]
"Suck it up and L2P" is just as silly and tiresome as the "everything I lose to is imbalanced" whiners. It adds nothing to the conversation, it makes no claim about balance, it adds nothing to the specific situations being discussed.
BTW there are a lot of players who are "learning to play" and trying to improve against these strats every day. The issue is that despite our best efforts, it doesn't lead to anything. This isn't "wahh I lost, make it easier for me". It's "I am practicing for hours and hours and still getting destroyed no matter what I try".
You could specifically tell me that you're using the same bio+mine build, with the same strategy and same attack timings, for 20 games in a row and I would still lose over 2/3 of the time (assuming I play for a macro game). Like the final months of WoL where protoss would always choose one allin or another in PvZ because there's so little hope if the game goes longer than 10 minutes... that's what ZvT is like now. while the game may not be imbalanced, it still is frustrating to play (and a game should not be frustrating to play but fun instead) technically you can micro against widow mines (until terrans figure out that you can hold and aim them -.-), That is more a theoretical ability than a practical one. Why do you think even pro's rather unburrow than do that? It is a ridiculously micro intensive way to prevent them from firing and only possible really early in the game when for example a ling pokes your wall off. And aiming them is just pretty much impossible when we are talking about more than 2 mines and you don't want ridiculous overkill. no need for ridiculous overkill. As far as I know they stop shooting and start aiming once you select a new target, even if that target is out of reach. And when you tell them to attack a target that is out of reach they start to attack the closest target, which should be fine in most cases if you held them long enough to ignore the first ling poking in. So yeah, both holding and targetting is tough to control, but doing either one should be enough to get quite the advantage. And I wouldn't mind overkilling a mutalisk if the splash kills the other 10. And meanwhile, the MM splits/stutters by itself. The problem is not if it's possible, but it is just not worth it for the most part. fair point, but while in many mid game engagements it is more important to save the marines from your own widow mine shots by running away from zerglings, there are also a lot of situations where you are in the comfortable situation to be able to micro your mines (for example against an early game push with 1-2 zerglings running up your ramp trying to trigger your 2 widow mines to allow the 8 banelings to crush you; or when you lose a pack of marines mid game and the zerg army starts running through your widow mine field that is set up to protect you in case your marine push fails). Also I'm really sorry if that was the most important thing for you to take away from my huge wall of text, maybe I failed to make myself clear enough. I didn't say it's not worth it all the time, but it is highly situational as you clearly see, when engagement occurs, you will want to be microin'g your bio because there are banelings, ultras and/or infestors. It's as simple as that, there are only a few things one can do at the same time. Chocobo for example is speaking about how hard is to deal with new players with mines. That's true for oracles, banelings, hellbat drops, etc... units which require reactive or preemptive micro from your opponent you will find them to be "OP" if we try to compare it to how they work on the progamer scene. And that's a bad way to look at it because it's like trying to balance two different games. People "trying" to get better playing builds of the progamers must accept they will lose to silly stuff. It's how it is until you get better and better. If you want to win, abuse the units that expose the most your opponent's skill level weakness. In lower lower league, that's just macro On May 11 2013 22:10 sibs wrote:On May 11 2013 17:32 scypio wrote:On May 11 2013 13:57 _Search_ wrote:On May 11 2013 04:27 tuho12345 wrote:On May 11 2013 01:03 Greendotz wrote:On May 10 2013 10:04 avilo wrote:
For the most part right now they made a good decision to leave everything alone. The game is near perfect balance at the moment.
...
Beyond build order openings, the game is perfectly balanced.
...
That's about it though. GJ on them on seeing how players develop the metagame further. Wow, never thought I'd see the day. I know right? From avilo?? Well all we need now is IdrA to admit it lol Of course he doesn't want anything changed. Terran is ridiculously overpowered right now. So disgusted that they're not fixing TvZ. A bit of history: it took about 8 months for the zergs to fully acknowledge the possibilities that opened for them once the queen+overlord patch kicked in. After these 8 months dominated almost every tournament in the world. Right now we are two months into HotS. The zergs won MLG, they won Dreamhack, they have half of the spots in GSL CodeS ro8. And what do they say? "Terran is overpowered". Are you serious? It takes way more time for the Z's to figure out new strategies and adapt to new micro requirements. It took 8 months for z's in WoL to adapt to a simple change affecting two units. It's dazzling how after just 2 months of HotS and great tournament results we have the "nerf T"! chant all over the place. It seems that the "free 3 base + 75 drones" build no longer works in HotS. Oh well... suck it up and L2P, just the way the pro zergs did. It's funny when people "remember" things, it actually took about a couple of months for ZvT to favor Z. http://aligulac.com/reports/ You should look at your own link. Not only it appears as favored the whole time from may on, but there is only one point where it's at a 48.9%, and that was the month of taeja and his crazy TvZ winrate. Yea? So you're agreeing with me and telling me to look at my own link again? I don't understand. TvZ became zerg-favored the moment the patch hit. It took 8 more months for the zergs to utterly dominate the whole SC2 tournament scene worldwide. So I'd say that it took 8 months to fully exploit the power of the patch - although some of its effects were immediate. We are in a similar place right now - the game is balanced at the top, zergs are performing really well and improving. Meanwhile the players are whining about how unwinnable the matchup is, how difficult it is to micro vs widow mines and that it is so unfair. The dreaded hellion contain of early 2012 was just as unfair, it forced zergs to make units and it was killed with a patch. We moved on to those awful NR15 games, total zerg domination, the community ditching WoL the moment HotS came out and never looking back. Yes, it would be good to make the game somewhat less frustrating at lower levels etc. But I am not willing to sacrifice top-level balance in favor of my own ladder experience. And it seems that Blizzard thinks alike. Using individual perfomances and who "wins" a tournament is a really bad way to see if a race is OP or not, fruitdealer and nestea won the first 2 GSL's facing a multitude of "bad" terran player's , yes Z was OP vs T after patch 1.4.3 , that bears no meaning now though, the fact is that Zerg as a race is not performing well, and things are not looking better for Zerg in the future, things are looking a lot better for Protoss if anything.
Zergs are not performing badly. And you can hardly say it's "individual performances", when there are many good zergs around - which there are.
TvZ is in an OK shape right now balancewise and the metagame could still change radically in the next month or two. We are far off from having stable gameplans at this point in time (and it shows from the huge amount of allins and damageoriented openings both sides perform, as well as how stupidly long people draw out their midgame and not transition into their lategame units - on both sides).
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