On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote: EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about. Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though.
Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release.
EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.'
You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this?
LOL. I stopped playing before HOTS. I never played SC2 to be competitive, but I was addicted to it — it's a fun game but a time sink for someone my age.
I've decided to become a full-time fan instead, and treat it like any other sport on TV. I appreciate the business element of it, and organizations that are trying to take the game beyond just a fetish.
While it's great there is a hardcore community of players and fans that want the game to be as 'pure' as possible, that's almost a surefire way to guarantee it will always be small.
It's funny, because guys like you probably think EG is hurting the integrity of the game, while I think hardcore communities like TL are filled with people that are hurting the financial sustainability and longevity of the game, with their insularity, elitism and frankly, sophmoric values.
There used to be a time when people on this board talked about SC2 being the next big thing; the next poker. Without more teams like EG — teams that have found alternative sources of revenue for players, other than winning EVERYTHING — that will NEVER, ever happen.
Lol at TL hurting SC when this website is largely responsible for the entire business. There is nothing wrong with being a controversial player with a personality. There is something wrong with being a downright dirt-bag. Idra is starting to resemble CombatEx quite closely. Heck, only thing he needs to do now is start stream-cheating.
Defacer is right in a sense, though. If we had teams where the only goal was winning, every team except the best couple would collapse. If nobody ever went to Kansas City Royals games because they sucked, the team wouldn't exist anymore, and that isn't good for anyone. Increasing the number of possible good jobs for people in the scene cannot possibly be bad.
Yeah, The community can't wrap their heads around that winning does not effect viability. Even Idra's haters turn in because they want to see if he wins.
And let's not kid ourselves, people would be pumped if he did.
On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote: EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about. Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though.
Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release.
EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.'
You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this?
LOL. I stopped playing before HOTS. I never played SC2 to be competitive, but I was addicted to it — it's a fun game but a time sink for someone my age.
I've decided to become a full-time fan instead, and treat it like any other sport on TV. I appreciate the business element of it, and organizations that are trying to take the game beyond just a fetish.
While it's great there is a hardcore community of players and fans that want the game to be as 'pure' as possible, that's almost a surefire way to guarantee it will always be small.
It's funny, because guys like you probably think EG is hurting the integrity of the game, while I think hardcore communities like TL are filled with people that are hurting the financial sustainability and longevity of the game, with their insularity, elitism and frankly, sophmoric values.
There used to be a time when people on this board talked about SC2 being the next big thing; the next poker. Without more teams like EG — teams that have found alternative sources of revenue for players, other than winning EVERYTHING — that will NEVER, ever happen.
Lol at TL hurting SC when this website is largely responsible for the entire business. There is nothing wrong with being a controversial player with a personality. There is something wrong with being a downright dirt-bag. Idra is starting to resemble CombatEx quite closely. Heck, only thing he needs to do now is start stream-cheating.
Defacer is right in a sense, though. If we had teams where the only goal was winning, every team except the best couple would collapse. If nobody ever went to Kansas City Royals games because they sucked, the team wouldn't exist anymore, and that isn't good for anyone. Increasing the number of possible good jobs for people in the scene cannot possibly be bad.
Yeah, The community can't wrap their heads around that winning does not effect viability. Even Idra's haters turn in because they want to see if he wins.
And let's not kid ourselves, people would be pumped if he did.
You are correct that the hater's tune into watch him lose(not see if he wins), but that's because tournaments serve him up to us. He isn't qualifying for anything straight up anymore. Every single instance of Idra for a very long time has been served up to people because the tournament themselves have invited him. I could live the rest of my life without seeing another Idra match and be absolutely fine with it and I'll continue to watch SC2 and root for my favorite players.
Tournaments should just stop tossing him invites and he'll disappear and become nothing more than a stream hero and only people who tune into his stream will care about him.
Idra will go down in gaming history as one of the highest paid gamers who input the least effort.
The reddit thread about him is making me smile so hard.
IdrA is fucking brilliant. He is the Jersey Shore of the SC2 community.
He is catering to the lowest common denominator and it is working splendidly. He could stream right now after what he just did and still get 5-10k viewers, ragequit 10 games, go watch TV, and be paid his salary, stream money, etc.
BW didn't need disgraces like IdrA to be successful in Korea. Even the very rare example of a "bm" player like Firebathero or iloveoov (not that anything they did was comparable to IdrA) was at least successful enough to make their controversial behavior acceptable. The Korean scene cares about success. That's why the matchfixing scandal basically destroyed professional BW, too many sponsors pulled out because the integrity of the game was challenged. Yet despite the fact that there's no more professional teams, OSL/MSL or Proleague, Brood War is still more popular to this day than SC2 is.
So I don't accept any arguments to justify EG's existence because the scene needs drama and personality. There are a handful of KePSA b-teamers that grind 10 hours a day for the faint hope that they'll be sent out in PL just to lose to Flash or JangBi, without salary or glory. That's how much integrity they have. And you know what? It was a perfectly financially viable e-sport in Korea until the matchfixing scandal. Meanwhile, IdrA gets to relax on wads of cash because lots of people *still* find it hilarious when he calls someone a cunt for beating him.
Let the AM and EU scenes die for all the fucks I give, if that's how it's going to be. Barcrafts and huge tournaments aren't worth it for a game that has no integrity.
On May 09 2013 14:06 LightSpectra wrote: BW didn't need disgraces like IdrA to be successful in Korea. Even the very rare example of a "bm" player like Firebathero or iloveoov (not that anything they did was comparable to IdrA) was at least successful enough to make their controversial behavior acceptable. The Korean scene cares about success. That's why the matchfixing scandal basically destroyed professional BW, too many sponsors pulled out because the integrity of the game was challenged. Yet despite the fact that there's no more professional teams, OSL/MSL or Proleague, Brood War is still more popular to this day than SC2 is.
So I don't accept any arguments to justify EG's existence because the scene needs drama and personality. There are a handful of KePSA b-teamers that grind 10 hours a day for the faint hope that they'll be sent out in PL just to lose to Flash or JangBi, without salary or glory. That's how much integrity they have. And you know what? It was a perfectly financially viable e-sport in Korea until the matchfixing scandal. Meanwhile, IdrA gets to relax on wads of cash because lots of people *still* find it hilarious when he calls someone a cunt for beating him.
Let the AM and EU scenes die for all the fucks I give, if that's how it's going to be. Barcrafts and huge tournaments aren't worth it for a game that has no integrity.
I value hardwork and sacrifice as much as anyone. But there is nothing honorable about grinding 10 hours a day without salary. Those are just kids, some as young as 16, being lured out of school, forced to play 80+ hours a week without compensation and are being exploited by their teams. They are probably ruining their futures by sacrificing their whole lives for the sake of 'integrity'.
Well Idra was one of those "handful of KePSA b-teamers that grind 10 hours a day for the faint hope that they'll be sent out in PL just to lose to Flash or JangBi" long time ago, but times have changed. SC2 scene is different now and allows entities like Idra to exist in current model (in western starcraft anyway). Don't hate the player, hate the game. If he lost his passion and just does this for the money good for him, don't feel entitled to see Idra win something or even try hard. There are plenty of other players who do that.
On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote: EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about. Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though.
Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release.
EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.'
You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this?
LOL. I stopped playing before HOTS. I never played SC2 to be competitive, but I was addicted to it — it's a fun game but a time sink for someone my age.
I've decided to become a full-time fan instead, and treat it like any other sport on TV. I appreciate the business element of it, and organizations that are trying to take the game beyond just a fetish.
While it's great there is a hardcore community of players and fans that want the game to be as 'pure' as possible, that's almost a surefire way to guarantee it will always be small.
It's funny, because guys like you probably think EG is hurting the integrity of the game, while I think hardcore communities like TL are filled with people that are hurting the financial sustainability and longevity of the game, with their insularity, elitism and frankly, sophmoric values.
There used to be a time when people on this board talked about SC2 being the next big thing; the next poker. Without more teams like EG — teams that have found alternative sources of revenue for players, other than winning EVERYTHING — that will NEVER, ever happen.
Lol at TL hurting SC when this website is largely responsible for the entire business. There is nothing wrong with being a controversial player with a personality. There is something wrong with being a downright dirt-bag. Idra is starting to resemble CombatEx quite closely. Heck, only thing he needs to do now is start stream-cheating.
Defacer is right in a sense, though. If we had teams where the only goal was winning, every team except the best couple would collapse. If nobody ever went to Kansas City Royals games because they sucked, the team wouldn't exist anymore, and that isn't good for anyone. Increasing the number of possible good jobs for people in the scene cannot possibly be bad.
Yeah, The community can't wrap their heads around that winning does not effect viability. Even Idra's haters turn in because they want to see if he wins.
And let's not kid ourselves, people would be pumped if he did.
It's really, really sad how many posters (even, long-time posters, surprisingly!) don't understand that if winning is the only thing that truly mattered in SC2, all foreign teams would immediately kick every single player with almost no exceptions (maybe Naniwa, Stephano, Scarlett, and Thorzain or something), and then they'd use all their funds to pick up the few teamless Koreans and poach Koreans from existing teams.
It's good to focus on results in sports, but I don't hear NFL fans or NBA fans saying that 90% of the teams should disband because they didn't win the Superbowl or go far in March Madness. I just don't understand this particular kind of stupidity.
On May 08 2013 01:31 radscorpion9 wrote: I think you're definitely right in that charisma plays a big role. Whenever Idra plays you have as many as ten thousand people watching his stream (if I recall correctly), even if he isn't necessarily as successful these days as he used to be.
But I think we should ensure that it remains a secondary focus, not the primary one. Because if people are watching players like Idra or Destiny just because of their colorful personalities, then the business model of esports isn't about the game anymore and just becomes a bit of a joke, in that people will just watch for moments of rage or witty commentary, or because a person is generally funny. At that point it has nothing to do with esports, its just about watching funny people play a game (the game doesn't matter).
For example that's actually the primary reason I watch day9, particularly on fridays or mondays. Most of the time I find sc2 games lackluster and boring because they follow a very standardized pattern of gameplay, but his commentary is hilarious, and I love all of his personal stories.
I think it also extends to casters; lots of people love watching incontrol and think he's a funny guy, but we should try to keep in mind that your knowledge about the game comes first, comedy second. Otherwise its just bizarre in that you are watching a comedy routine in a totally wrong setting.
Edit: Also I'm not even sure if the people above me read your post. He's asking whether we need more charsimatic, WWE type personalities in the game in order to make esports more popular. Stop with the insults, just read the final two paragraphs. That basically summarizes it. This is absolutely not a "dick measuring contest" between EG fans and haters, I have no idea how you draw that conclusion!
Fair, but I'm pretty sure EG's a business and when a team is a business, its primary focus won't be to win and be the best. Sure it'll be one of their goals, but then if you're the best player in the world but no one knows about u, how is it gonna make u money?
It's better to have a lesser product with a wider audience than a better product with very few audience. EG already has a very wide following, now if they can 'better' their skills and actually become one of the top teams, then their popularity would skyrocket.
Example: Dendi from Navi (Dota 2) - Likes to joke around, trolls people, dances, dorky, but considered by many as the best player..
Let's be real. People watch people because of their personality. If you're a fuckin genius, but your personality sucks, who'd like u? No one..
Yeah Dendi is a great example of a player who is simply a goldmine in terms of popularity, great personality and great at the game, kind of similar to IdrA in 2010 or Stephano in 2011-2012. (and note how EG quickly snapped up both of those)
I wonder if EG tried to get PartinG, he seems (from interview translations) to be more interesting than 90% of foreigners and we know he's more skilled than any foreigner. Have him learn a bit of English and stream from time to time (like MC did) and you've got a similar "goldmine".
Boxer in his prime was the perfect combination of talent, personality (it even showed in his play) and handsome. Sigh. Soooooo handsome.
It's not like EG brought on players like IdrA and Stephano only because they had personality. At the time they were contracted they were all considered great players with tremendous potential.
Yes, even InControl was considered one of the best NA Broodwar players when he joined SC2 during the beta. Being 'a personality' was not the path EG originally mapped out for him.
The insinuation that EG isn't trying to win in addition to make money is silly. Winning a GSL is fucking hard. LOL.
Is it that they're not trying? Or that it doesn't matter 100% in being a successful team? Like, I'm sure they are trying, but the reality is that they dont need to win everything in order to be sustainable, right?
Is there a NBA, NFL, MLB or NHL team that is going to close down because they haven't won enough titles? The Cubs have not won the World Series in 100 FUCKING YEARS!!!!!! ONE HUNDRED YEARS! There is only one person alive(wiki it if you care) that remembers them winning. ONE PERSON IN THE WHOLE WORLD. We fought two world wars, dealt with the civil rights, learned how to fly and WENT TO THE MOON in the time since their last title win.
So no team will ever go out of business because they do not win. It does not factor into if they a viable team. Winning does not make a team successful as a business. It never has. It never will. All that matters is that you have fans and players who want to play.
Just to play devil's advocate, teams that don't win ever don't tend to retain fans. Using an example like the cubs, they don't win, but there is the possibility they can win. If a team clearly will never win 100% guaranteed they are far less viable. Especially when you bring into consideration we are probably years and years and years away from things like revenue sharing that help to keep less viable teams viable.
Actually, if you follow baseball closely at all, you know that the cubs have been a huge laughingstock for the better part of the last two decades. The last few seasons you knew they would finish bottom in their division and you know they'll finish last this year. Yet, despite all that, they're still the most profitable team in all of professional baseball.
Pro teams in the major sports have a vastly different position than e-sports. Teams make more money off ONE game than a major LAN such as MLG makes every few months. They've already established their viewing base and foundational income. They can afford to try to pay money solely for talent because that's the key to making them even more profitable on top of the media sponserships and ticket sales. Those teams can focus purely on improving performance in an attempt to make even more money rather than in an attempt to stay economically viable.
Actually, if you follow baseball closely you'd know all cubs fans always think this year is the year. Additionally they won their division back to back in 2007 and 2008 so you are pretty much just making stuff up right there. If you are going to use an example back it up with facts that are real or don't bother please.
On the second point...of course, other pro sports are more established as they've been around since at least the early 1900's in some cases. Esports was in it's infancy in the arcade scene, then the whole pc scene didn't really start getting big until the 90's. This is like early 1900's 1930's football right now were everyone doesn't make hardly anything playing except an elite few and it's all done for the passion of the game.
Point however was no team even in pro sports gets to just absolutely suck without revenue share or something and make money. Tons of pro teams have gone bankrupt over the years in sports where revenue sharing does not exist. If for instance a team like EG actually didn't have any results for a few years they'd start to get into financial trouble guaranteed. At least they would if they didn't start to majorly restructure existing players contracts and reduce them as the value of the players fall as they become more and more irrelevant.
On May 08 2013 09:04 MoonfireSpam wrote: It is kinda funny it works. Buy hey, people are dumb fucks for the most part :> EG needs to get that bitcoin code from ESEA, they could probably get people to run it willingly.
EG: "Drink Monster and buy our shit you dumb fucks" EG fans: "Sure, just cos you so badass <3." EG: "Hell while you're at it, mine bitcoins for us pls, here's a short promo video and an EG wallpaper / screensaver" EG fans: "YAY stuff"
Is it sad that I am OK with all this?
Nope, I think we should all e-mail Alex and suggest it :> I think we should also suggest streaming Idra shitting in fans mouths, just for a social experiment. Haha actually I guess he kinda does anyway. Still should do it literally though. Could make more $$$.
On May 09 2013 14:06 LightSpectra wrote: So I don't accept any arguments to justify EG's existence because the scene needs drama and personality. There are a handful of KePSA b-teamers that grind 10 hours a day for the faint hope that they'll be sent out in PL just to lose to Flash or JangBi, without salary or glory. That's how much integrity they have.
This post is emblematic of a common attitude here on TL that I find very problematic, the idea that if you're not top 8 GSL or grinding you ass off and having a completely one-dimensional, unhealthily starcraft-focused life, you don't have "integrity" and you don't have any "skill". I wouldn't call playing 10 hours a day for months with little to no pay just to be crushed by an established pro once or twice and then fading into obscurity something more admirable than a pro foreigner who puts in 6 hours a day and has decent performances at tournies and builds a fanbase.
There's a place for the player who practices 40 hours a week and regularly has decent but never great showings at tournaments. Most of the people who make a living playing sports fit this model. For every Peyton Manning, there's a dozen decent QBs who do their jobs and provide competent, entertaining games even if they will never play in the post season. Most Starcraft players will not be champions, that's okay. Anybody who can even qualify for a major tournament, hell, even come close to qualifying, has skill in my book and hopefully one day they will all be able to make enough money to live off it (and the best of the best become rich). That's the way every established sport works already.
Edit: Just to clarify, I have no problem with people putting lots of time into SC2 with no money out of passion, there is something admirable to that as long as they aren't being exploited (which I bet many in Korea are), but I don't like the way it was framed by LightSpectra, that you don't have any integrity or worth or care about the game if you don't do that.
This post isn't really aimed at anyone in particular, but I'm tired of hearing the incredible standards people put on EG players in regard to the rest of the SC2 scene. It's unreal. So many of EG players were at the top, even competing with Koreans at some point in their SC2 career. Sure, they never reached legendary status, but which foreigner has?
The fact is, this is one tough game. One incredibly competitive game. It is very rare to see a player play consistently in peak form for a long time. Slumps are commonplace and sometimes turn permanent. Not very long ago, guys like MVP, Nestea, MMA, and MC were dominating the scene. How about today? Some are just just shells of their former selves. Even the top Koreans have trouble maintaining results, yet where is the criticism there? Compared to other foreign players, EG players are doing very well. They may not be taking 1st in every tournament, but they are still taking top finishes and haven't disappeared from the scene. Guys who have been dominating for a long time (Stephano) are still relevant and competitive. Don't see the harsh criticism for not producing results justified at all.
SC2 is a game. It's not freaking life or death. The majority of people buy and watch the game for entertainment. The whole environment should be competitive AND entertaining. People should be having fun. People respect greatness, but at the same time, many like to watch college basketball too because it can be just as entertaining, even without a prime michael jordan or lebron james playing. Some people would even argue that is it more fun to watch. What a lot of people don't understand is competition is not absolute, but relative. In the days when SC2 was still in infancy, people still loved to watch other people play against each other, even if the players had no clue what the most optimal strategies were or knew what the hell they were doing. So lighten up, enjoy the game for what it is, and swallow the hate.
And for real, unless YOU actually played at the same level that these players played at one point, judging them and saying they have no integrity is completely asinine.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
User was temp banned for this post.
Hahah you are a boss bro.
Really? Why reinforce this behavior? He just spit in your face as a fan and you took it and said, "you're a boss bro".
On May 09 2013 16:02 phiRa wrote: This post isn't really aimed at anyone in particular, but I'm tired of hearing the incredible standards people put on EG players in regard to the rest of the SC2 scene. It's unreal. So many of EG players were at the top, even competing with Koreans at some point in their SC2 career. Sure, they never reached legendary status, but which foreigner has?
The fact is, this is one tough game. One incredibly competitive game. It is very rare to see a player play consistently in peak form for a long time. Slumps are commonplace and sometimes turn permanent. Not very long ago, guys like MVP, Nestea, MMA, and MC were dominating the scene. How about today? Some are just just shells of their former selves. Even the top Koreans have trouble maintaining results, yet where is the criticism there? Compared to other foreign players, EG players are doing very well. They may not be taking 1st in every tournament, but they are still taking top finishes and haven't disappeared from the scene. Guys who have been dominating for a long time (Stephano) are still relevant and competitive. Don't see the harsh criticism for not producing results justified at all.
SC2 is a game. It's not freaking life or death. The majority of people buy and watch the game for entertainment. The whole environment should be competitive AND entertaining. People should be having fun. People respect greatness, but at the same time, many like to watch college basketball too because it can be just as entertaining, even without a prime michael jordan or lebron james playing. Some people would even argue that is it more fun to watch. What a lot of people don't understand is competition is not absolute, but relative. In the days when SC2 was still in infancy, people still loved to watch other people play against each other, even if the players had no clue what the most optimal strategies were or knew what the hell they were doing. So lighten up, enjoy the game for what it is, and swallow the hate.
And for real, unless YOU actually played at the same level that these players played at one point, judging them and saying they have no integrity is completely asinine.
The thing is EG players like Idra or Stephano are on a salary. NCAA players aren't. So if they're not producing results, they need to be criticized. Where's their hunger? Have they lost it because they're sitting comfortably on their money? NCAA becomes exciting when there's a cinderella story, which is why Naniwa and his road to Dreamhack was amazing, or Demuslims run in the WCS. I don't see anything like that with idra, at least not for a long time.
On May 08 2013 07:20 IdrA wrote: talk to your fellow viewers then. because they dont reward results, either for players or teams. code S koreans can stream and get less than 500 viewers. the community forgets about a big tournament win as soon as the next big tournament happens. a business' purpose is to make money. winning is at best tangentially related to making money in this industry, solely because of what you and the rest of the community chooses to watch. and any company who tries to lead the charge in the direction you're asking for is gonna go out of business. we arent "abusing a competitive platform" we work in an entertainment industry and you guys are entertained by pandering, not competition.
Idra, in an insight in why he behaves the way he does.
I am sure he is a nice fellow, who is pained and crying inside by his enforced facade for entertainment whenever he streams.
nope you're all a bunch of fucks it just so happens i get paid to treat you like it. it's fucking awesome.
User was temp banned for this post.
Hahah you are a boss bro.
This is the 'personality' that's needed in esports? How do you EG drones defend this?
EG just shows what US eSport was all about in the last 10 years. Nothing relevant in the tournament world out there. You get sometimes a rare shooting star and thats it again. For the rest of the time its EU vs Asia.
I dont hate them or dislike them. For me it was just a matter of time till US Teams just get irrelevant again. This time they put in more effort but well, hope they dont fall again in this casual trap that proofed to be no success - called Console Games eSport.
EPT
