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On May 09 2013 09:29 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 04:13 Defacer wrote:On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about.
Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though. Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release. EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.'  You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this?
LOL. I stopped playing before HOTS. I never played SC2 to be competitive, but I was addicted to it — it's a fun game but a time sink for someone my age.
I've decided to become a full-time fan instead, and treat it like any other sport on TV. I appreciate the business element of it, and organizations that are trying to take the game beyond just a fetish.
While it's great there is a hardcore community of players and fans that want the game to be as 'pure' as possible, that's almost a surefire way to guarantee it will always be small.
It's funny, because guys like you probably think EG is hurting the integrity of the game, while I think hardcore communities like TL are filled with people that are hurting the financial sustainability and longevity of the game, with their insularity, elitism and frankly, sophmoric values.
There used to be a time when people on this board talked about SC2 being the next big thing; the next poker. Without more teams like EG — teams that have found alternative sources of revenue for players, other than winning EVERYTHING — that will NEVER, ever happen.
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On May 09 2013 10:37 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 10:28 Applesmack wrote:
IdrA has actually started to offend me. That hasn't happened before. He is going a bit too far. Seems like most people are finally starting to have epiphanies about Idra 5 things about Idra that should be absolutely clear by now :1. Idra is not any different in real life than he is online 2. Idra has real emotional issues 3. Idra is anti-social and doesn't get along well with other people 4. Idra has an inflated ego from his financial and previous tournament success 5. Idra is only playing for money at this point - he hates Starcraft 2 as a game and is becoming apathetic towards it
thanks armchair psychologist
i actually don't like idra AT ALL but you sound ridiculous trying to analyze his mental state over how he acts in a game.
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On May 09 2013 10:41 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 09:29 Megaliskuu wrote:On May 09 2013 04:13 Defacer wrote:On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about.
Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though. Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release. EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.' You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this? LOL. I stopped playing before HOTS. I never played SC2 to be competitive, but I was addicted to it — it's a fun game but a time sink for someone my age. I've decided to become a full-time fan instead, and treat it like any other sport on TV. I appreciate the business element of it, and organizations that are trying to take the game beyond just a fetish. While it's great there is a hardcore community of players and fans that want the game to be as 'pure' as possible, that's almost a surefire way to guarantee it will always be small. It's funny, because guys like you probably think EG is hurting the integrity of the game, while I think hardcore communities like TL are filled with people that are hurting the financial sustainability and longevity of the game, with their insularity, elitism and frankly, sophmoric values. There used to be a time when people on this board talked about SC2 being the next big thing; the next poker. Without more teams like EG — teams that have found alternative sources of revenue for players, other than winning EVERYTHING — that will NEVER, ever happen.
Lol at TL hurting SC when this website is largely responsible for the entire business. There is nothing wrong with being a controversial player with a personality. There is something wrong with being a downright dirt-bag. Idra is starting to resemble CombatEx quite closely. Heck, only thing he needs to do now is start stream-cheating.
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On May 09 2013 10:53 Applesmack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 10:41 Defacer wrote:On May 09 2013 09:29 Megaliskuu wrote:On May 09 2013 04:13 Defacer wrote:On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about.
Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though. Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release. EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.' You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this? LOL. I stopped playing before HOTS. I never played SC2 to be competitive, but I was addicted to it — it's a fun game but a time sink for someone my age. I've decided to become a full-time fan instead, and treat it like any other sport on TV. I appreciate the business element of it, and organizations that are trying to take the game beyond just a fetish. While it's great there is a hardcore community of players and fans that want the game to be as 'pure' as possible, that's almost a surefire way to guarantee it will always be small. It's funny, because guys like you probably think EG is hurting the integrity of the game, while I think hardcore communities like TL are filled with people that are hurting the financial sustainability and longevity of the game, with their insularity, elitism and frankly, sophmoric values. There used to be a time when people on this board talked about SC2 being the next big thing; the next poker. Without more teams like EG — teams that have found alternative sources of revenue for players, other than winning EVERYTHING — that will NEVER, ever happen. Lol at TL hurting SC when this website is largely responsible for the entire business. There is nothing wrong with being a controversial player with a personality. There is something wrong with being a downright dirt-bag. Idra is starting to resemble CombatEx quite closely. Heck, only thing he needs to do now is start stream-cheating.
Considering his results in the last year, he probably should.
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On May 09 2013 10:52 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 10:37 SCST wrote:On May 09 2013 10:28 Applesmack wrote:
IdrA has actually started to offend me. That hasn't happened before. He is going a bit too far. Seems like most people are finally starting to have epiphanies about Idra 5 things about Idra that should be absolutely clear by now :1. Idra is not any different in real life than he is online 2. Idra has real emotional issues 3. Idra is anti-social and doesn't get along well with other people 4. Idra has an inflated ego from his financial and previous tournament success 5. Idra is only playing for money at this point - he hates Starcraft 2 as a game and is becoming apathetic towards it thanks armchair psychologist i actually don't like idra AT ALL but you sound ridiculous trying to analyze his mental state over how he acts in a game.
If you've been following Idra / EG/ Sc2 for any length of time you would probably agree, unless you're either oblivious or willfully ignorant . . .
Don't have to know anything about psychology to make those obvious judgements. I'm sure a shitload of evidence can support every single point.
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On May 09 2013 10:37 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 10:28 Applesmack wrote:
IdrA has actually started to offend me. That hasn't happened before. He is going a bit too far. Seems like most people are finally starting to have epiphanies about Idra 5 things about Idra that should be absolutely clear by now :1. Idra is not any different in real life than he is online 2. Idra has real emotional issues 3. Idra is anti-social and doesn't get along well with other people 4. Idra has an inflated ego from his financial and previous tournament success 5. Idra is only playing for money at this point - he hates Starcraft 2 as a game and is becoming apathetic towards it
Yeah, it might be time for him to move on. While he still posts huge stream numbers it's starting to have a negative effect on EG's brand overall.
Because less face it — maybe this topic wouldn't even exist if a player like IdrA wasn't on EG. When you think about it, IdrA's fame and financial success DESPITE his lack of passion or success in game is probably THE driving factor that makes people question whether EG cares more about money than results.
A great deal of EG's brand is defined, in the community's mind, by IdrA's reputation.Does anyone question the integrity of players like InControl, DeMuslim, Jaedong, Thorzain, Suppy etc? Not really. Because they don't openly complain about the game, rage at other players, or just give up in the middle of a fight.
EG. Alex once talked about the importance of competing with a certain level of integrity (in relation to the game Naniwa threw to Nestea.) People will spend good time and money to watch good competition — it's why teams and players have value and can become are commodities. Sports hinges on the pretense that, regardless of the results, players actually care about winning. So even if you're in an unwinnable situation, it's absolutely unacceptable to throw games, not try or give up. It betrays the audience's trust and is bad business.
What IdrA did in WCS today was pretty bad. It's like Allen Iverson refusing to enter a game, with 2 minutes left and his team down 10 points. Yes, it's unlikely you'll win, but he's getting paid to try. That being said, it's not fair to lump IdrA in with other EG players that obviously do try.
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On May 09 2013 10:53 Applesmack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 10:41 Defacer wrote:On May 09 2013 09:29 Megaliskuu wrote:On May 09 2013 04:13 Defacer wrote:On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about.
Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though. Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release. EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.' You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this? LOL. I stopped playing before HOTS. I never played SC2 to be competitive, but I was addicted to it — it's a fun game but a time sink for someone my age. I've decided to become a full-time fan instead, and treat it like any other sport on TV. I appreciate the business element of it, and organizations that are trying to take the game beyond just a fetish. While it's great there is a hardcore community of players and fans that want the game to be as 'pure' as possible, that's almost a surefire way to guarantee it will always be small. It's funny, because guys like you probably think EG is hurting the integrity of the game, while I think hardcore communities like TL are filled with people that are hurting the financial sustainability and longevity of the game, with their insularity, elitism and frankly, sophmoric values. There used to be a time when people on this board talked about SC2 being the next big thing; the next poker. Without more teams like EG — teams that have found alternative sources of revenue for players, other than winning EVERYTHING — that will NEVER, ever happen. Lol at TL hurting SC when this website is largely responsible for the entire business. There is nothing wrong with being a controversial player with a personality. There is something wrong with being a downright dirt-bag. Idra is starting to resemble CombatEx quite closely. Heck, only thing he needs to do now is start stream-cheating.
What business is that exactly? The one were only a handful of top-tier players, outside of EG, can afford to rent an apartment or live like normal humans?
FXO is a pet project sponsored by a zillionaire and is a tiny line-item of a massive company.
TL is a one-of-kind, unrepeatable site that survives almost exclusively on free content. It would take another company literally hundreds of thousands of dollars a month to even compete in the same space as TL.
EG is the only team that seems to have a credible business model.
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The EG bosses/coaches seem very level headed. They want their players to have a healthy lifestyle seemingly instead of playing all day and night. Though they do work hard and practice, it is probably not like Korean teams and I think they have genuinely good reasons for it that isn't selfish. They want their players, their co-workers to have a healthy, balanced lifestyle which is awesome. They are practical, and seemingly generous, but in cut-throat tournaments like this it may mean some players fall a little from their very top form because they've taken it down a notch because life is for the living too. So they don't always win/dominate like the players may have at one point but I think it's an awesome balance they allow their players to have that you wouldn't normally expect from giants in terms of money in any other platform. They're down to earth basically.
So I don't think what Idra did was a part of EG's plan or anything. He's got his own personal vendetta's to work out it seems, because no other player acts like him.
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I think EG's plan is definitely to market themselves as 'the badass' team.
I can think of nothing less badass than quitting a game with 2500/2500 banked, regardless of the circumstance.
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someone needs to send this guy his friends and family, i see him committing suicide.
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On May 09 2013 09:59 VerticalHorizon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote:
You can start this discussion based on one fact. Love em' or hate em', team EG has the right idea when it comes to the atmosphere of a professional team. Their ideology can be applied to any sport or hobby that generates income based on marketing. They take the most sought after individuals in a community and stamp a brand on them that raises their value, even after the fact. I disagree, but will respond to your individual points. Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote:
As a person who has followed the eSports scene for over a decade now. I can't help but think the rise of Evil Geniuses is exactly what this community needs. Don't get me wrong, Evil Geniuses has always been a force in the North American esports scene. But, it was never quite as marketable and dominant as it is in the SC2 scene now. Earlier memories of EG are their CS team that always stood in the shadow of other foreign teams like Complexity and 3D. Funny you mention those 2 as examples. Complexity and 3D were classic AMERICAN CS teams. EG stood in their shadow NOT because they were American, but because they were not as successful with competitive results (aka not as good). Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote:
How is it different now than it was then? The only thing that would make sense is the obvious thing in business. They made the right decisions at the right time. Number one on that list was picking up Greg 'IdrA' Fields early on. Greg was an enormous personality (still is) early on in the game. Whether it be from his results at MLG or from his character that seemed to attract lovers and haters alike. He is big. People like to watch Greg because he was a top contender in the scene at the time. On top of it all, they never knew what they were going to get from him. Lets face it, a vast majority of people follow Greg and its not always to see him win. People watched Greg initially because he was good AND had a fiery personality. If Idra didn't have the skills, he would have been outright dismissed. Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote:
Pair good business decisions with great timing and it seemed like the evolution of Team EG was bound for success. They have an organization that could essentially never net a single result and still command a larger following of fans than most (if not all) Korean and foreign teams. I understand Korea and their fans are the father of this scene. But, what has it done for foreigners so far? Brood War had a foreign scene, no where near as massive as the Korean scene. What did it do for eSports globally? Looking back in the scope of things, not much. You could argue that without the Korean Brood War scene, none of this would be possible. Those people would be 100% correct. But, that doesn't subdue the fact that the numbers dwindled in the foreign scene; Different cultures, different interests- fair enough. But, we NEED foreign teams like EG to expand our scene.
...
We could literally be on the cusp of a paradigm change. That still doesn't make the future of eSports even remotely close to a guaranteed success. We still need to have those teams who can be marketable. In the end, this can't just be about players watching professionals. There needs to be attraction to the scene based on players and teams. There needs to be that same structure we see in successful entertainment now. It may be enough for us that people are playing SC2, but will it be enough for the person who hasn't?
This is where a team like Evil Geniuses excels. They are the definition of marketable. They may not have the quality of player, as a whole, that you see on Korean teams (there are exceptions). What do they have the most of though? Players you WANT to watch. You may want to see them win, you may want to see them fail. But, you want to see them. Thats the difference between Evil Geniuses and any Korean team. Koreans draw you in with their skill, EG draws you in with their personalities. A person observing this community can't help but notice EG understands the same thing, which is the bigger picture.They have the means to contract the biggest personalities and they do so. The charisma of their players shine through any performance, or lack there of. There's a lot going on here, but the crux of what you seem to be arguing is: 1. The stage is set for eSports to explode across the nation 2. Korean teams have skilled players, but this is not enough to grow the scene 3. EG may not be successful in competition, but has "marketable personalities" that are crucial to the growth of the scene This "marketable personality" thing is UTTER BULLSHIT in my opinion. I noticed you're from the United States. Of COURSE EG players have more "personality" for you. You relate to them, you speak their language, and there are 0 barriers to communication. The idea that foreign players are more "personable" than Koreans is garbage. As someone who understands Korean, I can tell you that a lot shines through about the individual characteristics of the Korean players when you hear and read about them in Korean. There is a reason why Koreans overwhelmingly supported certain players over another. The storylines and rivalries that were legendary in BW couldn't exist without the personalities of these players. The most successful Korean BW players did commercials, interviews, and participated in reality TV shows. This is all because of personality and marketability. The REAL REASON we need more teams like EG is not because they have "more" personality. It's because foreign teams capture the hearts of foreign audiences - exactly like what EG is doing for you as an American. So yes, if the final argument is that we need more foreign teams, then I COMPLETELY AGREE. But don't think for a second that just because you can fully understand what the player of one team is saying in an interview (because he's speaking English) means that guy has "more personality." Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote:
For eSports to break those barriers, we need more personalities and teams like EG. We need to catch that 'WWF' persona, in a sense. You don't always watch it for the action. You watch it to see whats going to happen next. Could you imagine another team with the resources and pool of personality EG has in eSports? It could only stand to attract those viewers who've never seen SC2 before. Hell, it could even spawn a realty television series. This is a terrible comparison. We don't want eSports to become a mocked performance show like the WWF, one that is never taken seriously. Personality is important, I agree. But skill and competitive success come first, ALWAYS. If anything, EG is a classic example of what we SHOULDN'T be doing in the foreign scene - namely, spending sponsorship money to fund "personable" players who are competitively unsuccessful. Until you put competitive success first and fanboyism/personality-worship on the backburner, you will always have a string of mediocre players who draw a mediocre crowd of friends and supporters, but cannot capture the hearts and imagination of the general public. Do you know who the uncaring masses give a shit about? WINNERS. This is why basketball and baseball are huge in America, but soccer is not. Likewise, this is why soccer is massive in Europe, but basketball comparatively is not. Imagine if you had an American team who beat the Korean machines at their own game, captured championships, and could talk about their process and victories in English? THAT is the next step of growing eSports in America. But as long as you have all talk and no results, you are doomed to be classified as niche interest because the PUBLIC DOESN'T CARE ABOUT LOSERS.
You make some great points. Although, its important to take in to account that I'm only speaking of the foreign scene in this case.
I personally feel that there are a ton of natural handicaps that would inhibit the foreign public to perceive any sort of pro gamer as a winner, regardless of results. There are a million and one reasons that I could give that as to why you could never compare and successful sport with pro gaming. There are undoubtedly similarities. In this case, I'll side with you and give you one reason why I think you could be right. Every sport started out as a recreational hobby. After a while, people started to enjoy it for the entertainment factor. But, all major sports took time to bloom into the entertainment power houses they are today. We could be seeing that same exact thing for pro gaming. If that were the case, the public would love to see winners more so than anything. But, if you watch pro sports, you know that there are characters in every single one of them that people can identify with and love the controversy surrounding those individuals.
Where does this start to fall apart for us? The time part. I don't think Starcraft has the amount of time required to bloom into that power house you see out of professional sports. Technology and the video game industry are expanding far too quickly to capture the attention span of any majority toward a SINGLE game. After all, video games are the entertainment the person is looking for in the first place. I'm sure some of us would follow SC2 scene if we quit the game, but would most people? I wouldn't bet on it.
In the end, we have differences of opinion. You think personality is important, but winners in our scene is what will allow it to bloom in to a entertainment contender. I just don't share the thought as you. Nothing wrong either of our opinions though.
I wouldn't think too much into that WWF thing. I was just trying to give people an idea of the personalities I was speaking about.
Thanks for responding.
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Idra's not wrong, but I'm not sure how he acts is sustainable for himself. He seems pretty miserable. Maybe I'm wrong though.
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Except its not like EG players are bad. Look at Demumslim, Huk, stephano and their korean players. They have top tier players and also personalities.
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We could literally be on the cusp of a paradigm shift.
FTFY for cooler buzz-speak. And no, we're not literally on anything.
Besides, OP doesn't say much. Yeah, EG is cool, sure.
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On May 08 2013 01:19 DiMano wrote:
I do not like teams that buy the best players from other teams to artificially become the best. EG has killed TSL and I hate them for this so much.
So you selfishly hate a team for tempting your favorite players with good wages and living conditions? Nice guy.
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On May 09 2013 11:28 Diddywhop wrote:EG is a classic example of what we SHOULDN'T be doing in the foreign scene - namely, spending sponsorship money to fund "personable" players who are competitively unsuccessful.
Pick any team and I can show you competitively unsuccessful players, hell on EG DeMuslim and Suppy for the longest time weren't known and weren't winning anything and now they've gone complete beast mode in the past couple months. Should they have been dropped back when they weren't preforming?
You're not making any sense.
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I really have hard time believing that any celebrity actually cares about his fans more than a salesman cares about his customer.
The people who seem to genuinely care about their fans are just either really good salesmen or really nice people who care about everyone.
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On May 09 2013 10:53 Applesmack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 10:41 Defacer wrote:On May 09 2013 09:29 Megaliskuu wrote:On May 09 2013 04:13 Defacer wrote:On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote:
EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about.
Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though. Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release. EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.' You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this? LOL. I stopped playing before HOTS. I never played SC2 to be competitive, but I was addicted to it — it's a fun game but a time sink for someone my age. I've decided to become a full-time fan instead, and treat it like any other sport on TV. I appreciate the business element of it, and organizations that are trying to take the game beyond just a fetish. While it's great there is a hardcore community of players and fans that want the game to be as 'pure' as possible, that's almost a surefire way to guarantee it will always be small. It's funny, because guys like you probably think EG is hurting the integrity of the game, while I think hardcore communities like TL are filled with people that are hurting the financial sustainability and longevity of the game, with their insularity, elitism and frankly, sophmoric values. There used to be a time when people on this board talked about SC2 being the next big thing; the next poker. Without more teams like EG — teams that have found alternative sources of revenue for players, other than winning EVERYTHING — that will NEVER, ever happen. Lol at TL hurting SC when this website is largely responsible for the entire business. There is nothing wrong with being a controversial player with a personality. There is something wrong with being a downright dirt-bag. Idra is starting to resemble CombatEx quite closely. Heck, only thing he needs to do now is start stream-cheating.
Defacer is right in a sense, though. If we had teams where the only goal was winning, every team except the best couple would collapse. If nobody ever went to Kansas City Royals games because they sucked, the team wouldn't exist anymore, and that isn't good for anyone. Increasing the number of possible good jobs for people in the scene cannot possibly be bad.
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I like EG for producing some great content, but i don't like EG for their excessive advertising.
I understand that they have to do so to get the money to produce content, but thats also why I want them to lose. Get results and not drama first.
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EPT
