EPT'The Giant', Evil Geniuses. - Page 7
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Waxangel
United States33298 Posts
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dicex
127 Posts
On May 08 2013 14:45 Canucklehead wrote: Disagree. He's referring to both. The people who like idra are the immature part of the community that love bm players and love to see rage. That is his fan demographic and he panders to them well and it's earned him a lot of money. Idra could shit on them and they would love it and expect it. I'm not an Idra fan, but I can't argue against the success his persona has earned him in regards to fans and money. There's a sizeable portion of the community that just loves bm players. Idra saw that and one was one of the first to capitalize on it. That makes him a smart businessman...at least esportswise. You don't know what you are talking about. I do not agree with everything Idra does myself. And if you look at his fanclub, the people there always support him, but are also highly critical if he bms other players or throws away games because of his sometimes horrible attitude. His interactions with fans on live events seem to be all positive. Also: On June 24 2012 14:36 IdrA wrote: i have the best fans ever you guys kick ass Your post makes blindfold assumptions, painting Idra as some kind of showman who only cares about the money, not the game. He actually knows what he is talking about, even balance-wise, if he is for example commentating and not playing himself. People are forgetting about his time in BW, where he was one of the first foreigners to go to Korea and be successful, which is also a big reason why so many follow him even if he loses games. The question is, why am I trying to explain this to a guy who just puts all Korean players in his forum signature as soon as they are considered to be one of the best at any point in time??? | ||
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Canucklehead
Canada5074 Posts
On May 08 2013 15:28 dicex wrote: Your post makes blindfold assumptions, painting Idra as some kind of showman who only cares about the money, not the game. You must not be much of an idra fan if you do not know that he hates the game and calls it shit all the time. He's said this fact a ton of times in interviews and on inside the game. However, he likes everything else about esports. The travelling, the fans, etc and that's why he continues to be a progamer, but he actually does not like sc2 at all. | ||
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tshi
United States2495 Posts
On May 08 2013 15:21 Waxangel wrote: why haven't any of you posted the idra quip on reddit, I'm disappointed That right there, is lazy journalism! Anyway, I'm switching to World of Tanks like everyone else. Me, Artosis & Tasteless will see you there. | ||
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ke_ivan
Singapore374 Posts
More precisely, advertisers increasingly want to reach males 15 - 24. Where else would you get such a demographic except from gaming? That's what makes EG marketable. However, this is not EG specific. And EG is not big enough to have the quantity of reach. When advertisers/sponsors invest in EG, it is in hopes of getting a permanent placement in eSports as a whole, without doing much work or spending much money. Sponsorships represent a "buy in" into the collective eSports scene, much like how sports sponsorships work (product placement etc). And this only works if the total eSports audience is large enough. Is EG more marketable because their personality? Maybe. But that is obviously not a sticking point for advertisers. For EG to be marketable, they must be able to prove to advertisers that they can reach a certain number/percentage of males 15-24 (based on my hypothesis in the above paragraph). If they can do that, they are marketable. If they can't, they are not. edit: Also would like to note that private companies not legally bound to post their financial results. edit2: Waxangel, you troll... lol | ||
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Level10Peon
United States59 Posts
What's wrong with rooting for players that you like over who as the most "skill" (ignoring that, as I said, EG players are by no means "bad")? I root for the Rockies and Broncos when they do well and when they do poorly because they're my hometown teams, and there is an emotional component there. E-sports doesn't have hometown teams, so the next closest thing is rooting for people you like and can relate to. As awesome as it often is to watch players at the level of Flash and Innovation play each other, ultimately they're two Koreans who don't speak my language and who aren't a part of my culture and thus I have no way to really gauge their personalities or develop an attachment to them. As far as who they are as people, they're interchangeable from my point of view. On the other hand, someone like DeMuslim is somebody who speaks my language, is culturally similar to myself, and has a personality that I can read and like. I also like him because I play Terran and he is one of the top foreign Terrans. If he dropped to mid-masters, I wouldn't watch him. So people who tell me I don't care at all about "skill" are just wrong. The difference is I don't just care about skill. I'll tell you this, I had far more fun and emotional thrills from watching Demuslim try to get into WCS NA Premier league, and fail by one game, and then succeed in getting into challenger, than I did watching any match-up between two Koreans. If this is true of someone like me, then you better bet your ass it is true of the "casuals". The EG model may be flawed, they may emphasize marketing and personality a bit too much, but something like what they do will be necessary to grow the number of SC2 spectators and to make E-Sports mainstream. And one more thing, people who root for the people with the most "skill" are called "fair-weather fans" in traditional sports, and they're not held in high-esteem. Food for thought. | ||
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ConGee
318 Posts
On May 08 2013 13:11 Nerski wrote: Just to play devil's advocate, teams that don't win ever don't tend to retain fans. Using an example like the cubs, they don't win, but there is the possibility they can win. If a team clearly will never win 100% guaranteed they are far less viable. Especially when you bring into consideration we are probably years and years and years away from things like revenue sharing that help to keep less viable teams viable. Actually, if you follow baseball closely at all, you know that the cubs have been a huge laughingstock for the better part of the last two decades. The last few seasons you knew they would finish bottom in their division and you know they'll finish last this year. Yet, despite all that, they're still the most profitable team in all of professional baseball. Pro teams in the major sports have a vastly different position than e-sports. Teams make more money off ONE game than a major LAN such as MLG makes every few months. They've already established their viewing base and foundational income. They can afford to try to pay money solely for talent because that's the key to making them even more profitable on top of the media sponserships and ticket sales. Those teams can focus purely on improving performance in an attempt to make even more money rather than in an attempt to stay economically viable. | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
As to people saying EG only buys personality, and doesn't care about results/skill. Alive/OZ were not at the top of their game, and they are currently getting better and better. In fact, Alive is starting to look like he has the potential to become one of the greats. JYP was never huge, and has gotten better imo, especially his team leagues. Stephano/Huk/Idra may not be top of their game, and yes EG bought them when they were doing well, but just because EG buys a few famous people, doesn't mean they dont care about getting better. They have helped foster Suppy really well. And last but not least, how can you say a team doesn't care about results when they buy Coach Park, who does indeed seem to be making a impact. It was pointless to think EG-TL would do good this proleague, but next I guarantee they will at least be in the middle of the rankings come round 4 or so. TLDR: this thread is just inviting 'i love eg' or 'i hate eg' posts. Too many people can't look at the scope of the team, or even the scope of your thread. | ||
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Diddywhop
United States42 Posts
On May 08 2013 23:06 ohampatu wrote: Sorry that too many people are trolling you because they disagree with your second sentence, and didn't bother reading the whole op, especially the end. As to people saying EG only buys personality, and doesn't care about results/skill. Alive/OZ were not at the top of their game, and they are currently getting better and better. In fact, Alive is starting to look like he has the potential to become one of the greats. JYP was never huge, and has gotten better imo, especially his team leagues. Stephano/Huk/Idra may not be top of their game, and yes EG bought them when they were doing well, but just because EG buys a few famous people, doesn't mean they dont care about getting better. They have helped foster Suppy really well. And last but not least, how can you say a team doesn't care about results when they buy Coach Park, who does indeed seem to be making a impact. It was pointless to think EG-TL would do good this proleague, but next I guarantee they will at least be in the middle of the rankings come round 4 or so. TLDR: this thread is just inviting 'i love eg' or 'i hate eg' posts. Too many people can't look at the scope of the team, or even the scope of your thread. But, you did! I kind of grown to expect some of the responses I've gotten when posting on forums. There are always people that respond intelligently, like yourself. Yeah, like you said, this can be tough to talk about without peoples feelings toward EG making them sour about the discussion. | ||
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oGsTrueSmug
England141 Posts
Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On May 09 2013 02:13 oGsTrueSmug wrote: EG is an excellent press machine and brand behind a distinctly average group of progamers. Their ethos is 'good' in the Western sense, in that it makes money, which is what Western eSports is about. Sadly, that doesn't make winners. Occasionally it buys winners, though. Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release. EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.'  | ||
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
On May 09 2013 04:13 Defacer wrote: Well, EG may have not won a GSL like a team like TSL, but last I checked TSL fell apart and some of their best players don't even play SC2 anymore, less than two and half years after release. EG may not win titles but they are winning at this thing called 'life.' You must be one of those guys that rages out of games and calls your opponents 'virgin nerds' am I right about this? | ||
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High[5]
United States61 Posts
On May 08 2013 09:04 MoonfireSpam wrote: It is kinda funny it works. Buy hey, people are dumb fucks for the most part :> EG needs to get that bitcoin code from ESEA, they could probably get people to run it willingly. EG: "Drink Monster and buy our shit you dumb fucks" EG fans: "Sure, just cos you so badass <3." EG: "Hell while you're at it, mine bitcoins for us pls, here's a short promo video and an EG wallpaper / screensaver" EG fans: "YAY stuff" Is it sad that I am OK with all this? | ||
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MountainDewJunkie
United States10341 Posts
Certainly a great business model, though. They're highly profitable in spite of having an unfortunate string of... coincidences of slumping players and poor team-play results. | ||
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VerticalHorizon
United States415 Posts
On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: You can start this discussion based on one fact. Love em' or hate em', team EG has the right idea when it comes to the atmosphere of a professional team. Their ideology can be applied to any sport or hobby that generates income based on marketing. They take the most sought after individuals in a community and stamp a brand on them that raises their value, even after the fact. I disagree, but will respond to your individual points. On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: As a person who has followed the eSports scene for over a decade now. I can't help but think the rise of Evil Geniuses is exactly what this community needs. Don't get me wrong, Evil Geniuses has always been a force in the North American esports scene. But, it was never quite as marketable and dominant as it is in the SC2 scene now. Earlier memories of EG are their CS team that always stood in the shadow of other foreign teams like Complexity and 3D. Funny you mention those 2 as examples. Complexity and 3D were classic AMERICAN CS teams. EG stood in their shadow NOT because they were American, but because they were not as successful with competitive results (aka not as good). On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: How is it different now than it was then? The only thing that would make sense is the obvious thing in business. They made the right decisions at the right time. Number one on that list was picking up Greg 'IdrA' Fields early on. Greg was an enormous personality (still is) early on in the game. Whether it be from his results at MLG or from his character that seemed to attract lovers and haters alike. He is big. People like to watch Greg because he was a top contender in the scene at the time. On top of it all, they never knew what they were going to get from him. Lets face it, a vast majority of people follow Greg and its not always to see him win. People watched Greg initially because he was good AND had a fiery personality. If Idra didn't have the skills, he would have been outright dismissed. On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: Pair good business decisions with great timing and it seemed like the evolution of Team EG was bound for success. They have an organization that could essentially never net a single result and still command a larger following of fans than most (if not all) Korean and foreign teams. I understand Korea and their fans are the father of this scene. But, what has it done for foreigners so far? Brood War had a foreign scene, no where near as massive as the Korean scene. What did it do for eSports globally? Looking back in the scope of things, not much. You could argue that without the Korean Brood War scene, none of this would be possible. Those people would be 100% correct. But, that doesn't subdue the fact that the numbers dwindled in the foreign scene; Different cultures, different interests- fair enough. But, we NEED foreign teams like EG to expand our scene. ... We could literally be on the cusp of a paradigm change. That still doesn't make the future of eSports even remotely close to a guaranteed success. We still need to have those teams who can be marketable. In the end, this can't just be about players watching professionals. There needs to be attraction to the scene based on players and teams. There needs to be that same structure we see in successful entertainment now. It may be enough for us that people are playing SC2, but will it be enough for the person who hasn't? This is where a team like Evil Geniuses excels. They are the definition of marketable. They may not have the quality of player, as a whole, that you see on Korean teams (there are exceptions). What do they have the most of though? Players you WANT to watch. You may want to see them win, you may want to see them fail. But, you want to see them. Thats the difference between Evil Geniuses and any Korean team. Koreans draw you in with their skill, EG draws you in with their personalities. A person observing this community can't help but notice EG understands the same thing, which is the bigger picture.They have the means to contract the biggest personalities and they do so. The charisma of their players shine through any performance, or lack there of. There's a lot going on here, but the crux of what you seem to be arguing is: 1. The stage is set for eSports to explode across the nation 2. Korean teams have skilled players, but this is not enough to grow the scene 3. EG may not be successful in competition, but has "marketable personalities" that are crucial to the growth of the scene This "marketable personality" thing is UTTER BULLSHIT in my opinion. I noticed you're from the United States. Of COURSE EG players have more "personality" for you. You relate to them, you speak their language, and there are 0 barriers to communication. The idea that foreign players are more "personable" than Koreans is garbage. As someone who understands Korean, I can tell you that a lot shines through about the individual characteristics of the Korean players when you hear and read about them in Korean. There is a reason why Koreans overwhelmingly supported certain players over another. The storylines and rivalries that were legendary in BW couldn't exist without the personalities of these players. The most successful Korean BW players did commercials, interviews, and participated in reality TV shows. This is all because of personality and marketability. The REAL REASON we need more teams like EG is not because they have "more" personality. It's because foreign teams capture the hearts of foreign audiences - exactly like what EG is doing for you as an American. So yes, if the final argument is that we need more foreign teams, then I COMPLETELY AGREE. But don't think for a second that just because you can fully understand what the player of one team is saying in an interview (because he's speaking English) means that guy has "more personality." On May 08 2013 01:11 Diddywhop wrote: For eSports to break those barriers, we need more personalities and teams like EG. We need to catch that 'WWF' persona, in a sense. You don't always watch it for the action. You watch it to see whats going to happen next. Could you imagine another team with the resources and pool of personality EG has in eSports? It could only stand to attract those viewers who've never seen SC2 before. Hell, it could even spawn a realty television series. This is a terrible comparison. We don't want eSports to become a mocked performance show like the WWF, one that is never taken seriously. Personality is important, I agree. But skill and competitive success come first, ALWAYS. If anything, EG is a classic example of what we SHOULDN'T be doing in the foreign scene - namely, spending sponsorship money to fund "personable" players who are competitively unsuccessful. Until you put competitive success first and fanboyism/personality-worship on the backburner, you will always have a string of mediocre players who draw a mediocre crowd of friends and supporters, but cannot capture the hearts and imagination of the general public. Do you know who the uncaring masses give a shit about? WINNERS. This is why basketball and baseball are huge in America, but soccer is not. Likewise, this is why soccer is massive in Europe, but basketball comparatively is not. Imagine if you had an American team who beat the Korean machines at their own game, captured championships, and could talk about their process and victories in English? THAT is the next step of growing eSports in America. But as long as you have all talk and no results, you are doomed to be classified as niche interest because the PUBLIC DOESN'T CARE ABOUT LOSERS. | ||
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willoc
Canada1530 Posts
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SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
On May 08 2013 13:58 dicex wrote: Nope, that's not it. He actually is nice to his fans, the people he referred to as "fucks" are the ever-so-offendended, hypocritical-about-balance-issues and slightly dumb part of the TL forum community. Nah sorry bud, he thinks this about most-everyone, even his own Team-mates. If you don't realize that by now, you'll never realize this and continue to be one of the sheep he's cashing out on. | ||
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Infernal_dream
United States2359 Posts
On May 09 2013 10:20 SCST wrote: Nah sorry bud, he thinks this about most-everyone, even his own Team-mates. If you don't realize that by now, you'll never realize this and continue to be one of the sheep he's cashing out on. That guy proves the point of "he could shit in your lawn" exactly. He believes Idra actually gives a fuck about him. He believes he isn't one of the "fucks" or "dumbasses" when Idra calls people those names. I just don't understand how people can think that way. I watch idra because he acts like an 8 year old who got his pop rocks taken away. I run adblock because no I don't think someone like that should be making money from it. People watch Idra for the same reason they go to the circus. To see someone act like a tool/idiot/dumbass. That's what Idra provides. Sure it's entertaining, but it's not mature in the slightest. | ||
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Applesmack
Canada680 Posts
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SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
On May 09 2013 10:28 Applesmack wrote: IdrA has actually started to offend me. That hasn't happened before. He is going a bit too far. Seems like most people are finally starting to have epiphanies about Idra 5 things about Idra that should be absolutely clear by now : 1. Idra is not any different in real life than he is online 2. Idra has real emotional issues 3. Idra is anti-social and doesn't get along well with other people 4. Idra has an inflated ego from his financial and previous tournament success 5. Idra is only playing for money at this point - he hates Starcraft 2 as a game and is becoming apathetic towards it | ||
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