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On May 09 2013 16:02 phiRa wrote:
This post isn't really aimed at anyone in particular, but I'm tired of hearing the incredible standards people put on EG players in regard to the rest of the SC2 scene. It's unreal. So many of EG players were at the top, even competing with Koreans at some point in their SC2 career. Sure, they never reached legendary status, but which foreigner has?
The fact is, this is one tough game. One incredibly competitive game. It is very rare to see a player play consistently in peak form for a long time. Slumps are commonplace and sometimes turn permanent. Not very long ago, guys like MVP, Nestea, MMA, and MC were dominating the scene. How about today? Some are just just shells of their former selves. Even the top Koreans have trouble maintaining results, yet where is the criticism there? Compared to other foreign players, EG players are doing very well. They may not be taking 1st in every tournament, but they are still taking top finishes and haven't disappeared from the scene. Guys who have been dominating for a long time (Stephano) are still relevant and competitive. Don't see the harsh criticism for not producing results justified at all.
SC2 is a game. It's not freaking life or death. The majority of people buy and watch the game for entertainment. The whole environment should be competitive AND entertaining. People should be having fun. People respect greatness, but at the same time, many like to watch college basketball too because it can be just as entertaining, even without a prime michael jordan or lebron james playing. Some people would even argue that is it more fun to watch. What a lot of people don't understand is competition is not absolute, but relative. In the days when SC2 was still in infancy, people still loved to watch other people play against each other, even if the players had no clue what the most optimal strategies were or knew what the hell they were doing. So lighten up, enjoy the game for what it is, and swallow the hate.
And for real, unless YOU actually played at the same level that these players played at one point, judging them and saying they have no integrity is completely asinine.
I somewhat agree with this post, you're right, it's just a game and some people really shouldn't care as much as they do. However, thats part of being a fan of the game. The term fan is short for fanatic because that's what we become when we put our passion into something really really enjoy watching. Your'e also right that as some random ass diamond player on NA I don't have a right to judge his skill as a sc2 player, however, I CAN tell you that Idra acts like a giant child sometimes. Yeah, I will never be able to play sc2 at a competitive level but I've seen enough people act like children and whine and complain enough in my life to know that this dude does just that. I think for me that's where the dislike of his character comes in personally. Some people enjoy his antics I don't. Mostly I just root for him to lose because that's how I react to people that act like babies in real life too.
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Sports team's are essentially businesses. Same goes for e-sports, if IdrA or whatever can earn thousands chilling and bm'ing a month all the power to him, at least he can gather the masses for his teams sponsor exposure. Players without a personality will quickly be forgotten even if they get tournament wins. Why would I care how much he or for that matter anyone else earns from that just some jelly ppl , haters might. And all the haters and everything just make him more interesting.
If people get hooked to stupid adverts on streams without doing research first that's their problems blindly following them...
While personality wise I wouldn't compare him to but i'll draw parallels with basketball player Yao Ming he had his moments at top but he is no were near best at the moment and yet he's probably more known and would attract more people if at some matches than other top players.
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'Giant' ? More like a midget. I bet the OP holder is an EG smurf. =)
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After what Idra pulled lately I am not sure how good he is for EG anymore.
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In SC1 Idra was fiercely competitive, he would rage at losses, but that's because he really thought he was the better player and expected a lot from himself. It's a big disparity to see the difference between then and now.
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United States243 Posts
Now to fuel the fire and have Demuslim sign with TL when EG contract expires. :D
I mean, he is nice enough for it.
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I feel like this is the Destiny argument all over again, which is highly amusing considering the disdain certain EG members had for him when he left SC2. You can make money off stream viewers and doing your best to be entertaining, until you can't and someone else takes your place. Eventually, results matter and with nearly every other pro competing for viewers, you can't expect to hold onto an audience forever.
You can see this in EG themselves, where teammates are cannibalizing each others' views. Idra used to be the biggest Starcraft 2 stream by a very significant margin, but he's fallen off dramatically as Demuslim started to become the face of the organization with his recent success. That's not even going into the rest of the "streamer' portion of the team, who haven't been doing nearly as well as they used to. If you can't win or at least maintain the aura of being a top player, you're going to have a much harder time competing against everyone else's streams and legitimizing coaching for additional income support.
Idra is starting to have this problem now and his unique personality is likely accelerating his downward spiral. When he's winning, everyone loves the bad boy of Starcraft, but when he's not, he comes off as petty and extremely arrogant with his comfortable position at EG. It would be one thing if he was who he was while constantly doing his best to improve, but who can honestly say that he's shown that he's doing that right now? He seems content with where he is, despite not being a top foreigner in over a year. Being unable to take WCS USA last year really took the luster off him and I wouldn't be surprised if comments like this damages his reputation to the point where even the most hardline Idra supporters begin to leave him for greener pastures.
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Not an idra fan, but he is correct with that unnecessary statement about the fans. They don't care about skill, they care about pandering and identifying with them, hence why koreans don't get the stream views. However, his actions in WCS last night were really unprofessional and much deserving of discipline from his team. Say what you want about the Koreans taking over WCS NA...but honestly could you EVER imagine a Korean doing that? They are so far ahead in professionalism and foreigners need to take note. Idra basically pulled a Naniwa probe rush in that game, and it was completely disrespectful to the fans, to MLG, to Blizzard, to his team. The LEAST he could have done in that situation was the take his army around the other way and go for the natural main position on the terran side of the map, and if he loses his army, THEN GG. You don't leave maxxed. I get the feeling that he has no motivation whatsoever to win, to progress professionally anymore. EG should not accept this when they are investing in people like Coach Park who are working as hard as possible to pull off a miracle in Proleague and turn that team around (not that successfully but at least they are giving it their all). Stream views or not, that is not a good face to have for an organization anymore...and they don't need him. There are a lot of people representing north american starcraft better now, and they actually have the motivation to improve. I bet there are at least 50% of the players in the top 50 GM who if they had the chance to be on EG and go train in Korea would jump at the opportunity. For Idra, it is merely a bother and disruption to his daily routine of sitting on his ass all day and streaming a few hours.
TLDR: I think Idra's comment about the fans is basically true, not the best way to put it though i guess haha. However his performance last night was completely unacceptable and unprofessional. I hope EG will hold their players to a better standard than what we saw last night.
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On May 09 2013 18:16 -Archangel- wrote:
After what Idra pulled lately I am not sure how good he is for EG anymore.
Lately? I'm not seeing anything worse than what's he's been doing ever since the first beta for sc2 (didn't really follow him beforehand).
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On May 09 2013 23:25 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 18:16 -Archangel- wrote:
After what Idra pulled lately I am not sure how good he is for EG anymore. Lately? I'm not seeing anything worse than what's he's been doing ever since the first beta for sc2 (didn't really follow him beforehand).
Then you don't really follow him at all...
I'm not much of a fan, but if you can't see any differences then you're pretty blind
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Players like Demuslim, Grubby, etc.. can get the skill and the personality that make us cheer for them. I don't play Protoss, don't like any Protoss player, but everytime i'm watching Grubby in a tournament i fucking cheer for him. Why? Because i can see the effort he puts in his practice and his professional posture is a good example for other guys, Demuslim is the same, other players are the same.
Because they are _professionals_, if we want eSports grow, we need to filter true professionals and kids who are playing games.
I was watching WCS NA and i called some friends to watch with me, they brought their gfs and was very happy of engaging my friends on eSports. When Idra rage quited first game, my friend said:
- Wtf? It's a fucking kid or what? The game was very cool, why did he leave?! Please explain the game to me because i was thinking the game was even, i don't understand.
Yeah, sux right? It's eSports? No. Who is a bunch of fucks and a piece of shit? The angry kid who think he is a professional.
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On May 09 2013 23:31 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 23:25 nihlon wrote:On May 09 2013 18:16 -Archangel- wrote:
After what Idra pulled lately I am not sure how good he is for EG anymore. Lately? I'm not seeing anything worse than what's he's been doing ever since the first beta for sc2 (didn't really follow him beforehand). Then you don't really follow him at all... I'm not much of a fan, but if you can't see any differences then you're pretty blind
Do you remember how was acting during the beta and the gazillion of other things he's done since then? Or have people got selective memory on a collective scale or something? There may be differences but how exactly is it worse? Fine if it's something I've missed, I try to avoid most of the drama that's happening, I'm rather blind than have my brain melt with too much stupidity.
I'm checking right now and I don't see anything that would make my statement invalid.
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On May 09 2013 23:31 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 23:25 nihlon wrote:On May 09 2013 18:16 -Archangel- wrote:
After what Idra pulled lately I am not sure how good he is for EG anymore. Lately? I'm not seeing anything worse than what's he's been doing ever since the first beta for sc2 (didn't really follow him beforehand). Then you don't really follow him at all... I'm not much of a fan, but if you can't see any differences then you're pretty blind
There is clearly something going on with Idra that goes beyond SC2 and is a more general problem. I am normally a fan, but I can’t really defend some of his more recent stuff. I am not freaking out or anything, it mostly just bums me out. But this stuff isn’t any worse that what he has done in the past, per say. I mean, there was the amazing “I got banned from TL, Message Chill if that makes you angry” twitter moment. That was beyond amusing.
In the end, I will continue to watch Idra and hope he gets a grip on the mental stuff that his holding him back. I’m a Redsox fan, so I am used to be disappointed.
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I can`t agree with that EG thing actually.
There are no players that I want to follow, watch or want to see them win.
They are just there in the SC2 scene.
The only thing I see within EG is for good scandals and a laugh.
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On May 09 2013 16:52 Pwnzer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 16:02 phiRa wrote:
This post isn't really aimed at anyone in particular, but I'm tired of hearing the incredible standards people put on EG players in regard to the rest of the SC2 scene. It's unreal. So many of EG players were at the top, even competing with Koreans at some point in their SC2 career. Sure, they never reached legendary status, but which foreigner has?
The fact is, this is one tough game. One incredibly competitive game. It is very rare to see a player play consistently in peak form for a long time. Slumps are commonplace and sometimes turn permanent. Not very long ago, guys like MVP, Nestea, MMA, and MC were dominating the scene. How about today? Some are just just shells of their former selves. Even the top Koreans have trouble maintaining results, yet where is the criticism there? Compared to other foreign players, EG players are doing very well. They may not be taking 1st in every tournament, but they are still taking top finishes and haven't disappeared from the scene. Guys who have been dominating for a long time (Stephano) are still relevant and competitive. Don't see the harsh criticism for not producing results justified at all.
SC2 is a game. It's not freaking life or death. The majority of people buy and watch the game for entertainment. The whole environment should be competitive AND entertaining. People should be having fun. People respect greatness, but at the same time, many like to watch college basketball too because it can be just as entertaining, even without a prime michael jordan or lebron james playing. Some people would even argue that is it more fun to watch. What a lot of people don't understand is competition is not absolute, but relative. In the days when SC2 was still in infancy, people still loved to watch other people play against each other, even if the players had no clue what the most optimal strategies were or knew what the hell they were doing. So lighten up, enjoy the game for what it is, and swallow the hate.
And for real, unless YOU actually played at the same level that these players played at one point, judging them and saying they have no integrity is completely asinine. I somewhat agree with this post, you're right, it's just a game and some people really shouldn't care as much as they do. However, thats part of being a fan of the game. The term fan is short for fanatic because that's what we become when we put our passion into something really really enjoy watching. Your'e also right that as some random ass diamond player on NA I don't have a right to judge his skill as a sc2 player, however, I CAN tell you that Idra acts like a giant child sometimes. Yeah, I will never be able to play sc2 at a competitive level but I've seen enough people act like children and whine and complain enough in my life to know that this dude does just that. I think for me that's where the dislike of his character comes in personally. Some people enjoy his antics I don't. Mostly I just root for him to lose because that's how I react to people that act like babies in real life too.
When a team tries to hang on the coat tails of previous accomplishments when most of those accomplishments were a result of wins the players/teams made when they were with their other team? I still find it funny whenever they try to compare themselves to the New York Yankees and boast. It's a laughing joke. Let me know when they actually make a player for themselves. If you're going to boast and post content (sometimes I think they pay people to make threads like this) because no one in their right mind would say the OP's second sentence. They have a thing called blue and white disease when it comes to ML fans. I wonder if we should have EG fan boys checked out for B&W disease too.
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This thread and the reddit one are making Idra's point more convincing.
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On May 09 2013 23:50 megid wrote:
Because they are _professionals_, if we want eSports grow, we need to filter true professionals and kids who are playing games
The better way to put it is separating the people who actually want to show results and those who only are in it for entertainment value.
The later is an easy quick buck because people are attracted to car wrecks, the problem is as a long term business model by itself it won't succeed. Because eventually people get desensitized to it and move on.
Results + Entertainment are obviously the best of both worlds, but if you could only pick one you pick Results because it has a long term focus and future. Kespa basically proved this business model for the last decade.
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On May 10 2013 02:22 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 23:50 megid wrote:
Because they are _professionals_, if we want eSports grow, we need to filter true professionals and kids who are playing games
The better way to put it is separating the people who actually want to show results and those who only are in it for entertainment value. The later is an easy quick buck because people are attracted to car wrecks, the problem is as a long term business model by itself it won't succeed. Because eventually people get desensitized to it and move on. Results + Entertainment are obviously the best of both worlds, but if you could only pick one you pick Results because it has a long term focus and future. Kespa basically proved this business model for the last decade.
I'd argue that SC2 has a devoted, but limited audience, and needs to improve it's entertainment value to reach a broader audience. T
There's just not enough money in the industry for players right now. The more viewers there are, the more money there is, the more players there are, and level of competition overall rises.
Whatever get's eyeballs on SC2 is good right now, IMO (even if that includes a train wreck here and there).
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On May 10 2013 03:25 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 02:22 vesicular wrote:On May 09 2013 23:50 megid wrote:
Because they are _professionals_, if we want eSports grow, we need to filter true professionals and kids who are playing games
The better way to put it is separating the people who actually want to show results and those who only are in it for entertainment value. The later is an easy quick buck because people are attracted to car wrecks, the problem is as a long term business model by itself it won't succeed. Because eventually people get desensitized to it and move on. Results + Entertainment are obviously the best of both worlds, but if you could only pick one you pick Results because it has a long term focus and future. Kespa basically proved this business model for the last decade. I'd argue that SC2 has a devoted, but limited audience, and needs to improve it's entertainment value to reach a broader audience. T There's just not enough money in the industry for players right now. The more viewers there are, the more money there is, the more players there are, and level of competition overall rises. Whatever get's eyeballs on SC2 is good right now, IMO (even if that includes a train wreck here and there).
^^^This
Kespa is a great model, but is there room for a foreign Kespea to exist and survive given the size of the audience? I would say no.
I don't just want top 16 GSL to make good money, as I said earlier I want anybody good enough to even qualify for a WCS challenger league, or even have a reasonable shot at qualifying (who are still better than 99.9% of SC2 players) to be able to make a decent, middle-class income. A "middling" pro golfer still makes a good income, I want SC2 to be the same.
We need to expand the audience in the west. You don't do that by locking yourself in a dark room 12 hours a day and starving because you can't pay the bills and letting your health decline so you can upset Flash, that doesn't attract a new audience member.
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EG and idra viewership continue to increase. Idra just proves his point that marketing and personality >>> skill in sc2 community.
edit: there is literally nothing wrong with this, to each his own
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EPT
