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On May 02 2013 17:45 Brett wrote:
Crowdfunding is wrong!! The Chicago Bulls shouldn't charge people $30-$100 (pulling numbers out of my ass, I don't know the cost of an NBA ticket) for them to come and watch a game played. The bulls should have a better business model!
...... Wtf? If people don't want to donate... They don't. What on earth is this clown whinging about? I don't care for ROOT. I didn't donate. MIND FUCKING BLOWN EH? Most sports are actually 'crowd-funded' to a significant degree at the end of the day.
Selling tickets is not crowdfunding.
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On May 02 2013 17:45 Brett wrote:
Crowdfunding is wrong!! The Chicago Bulls shouldn't charge people $30-$100 (pulling numbers out of my ass, I don't know the cost of an NBA ticket) for them to come and watch a game played. The bulls should have a better business model!
...... Wtf? If people don't want to donate... They don't. What on earth is this clown whinging about? I don't care for ROOT. I didn't donate. MIND FUCKING BLOWN EH? Most sports are actually 'crowd-funded' to a significant degree at the end of the day.
Actually, the problem with your example is that if people pay for a match ticket, they are able to watch a match. They pay their money and are entertained in return. A product in exchange for money.
A donation, on the other hand, is simply giving money (and an inconsistent amount, seeing as it is at the donators disgression) without receiving anything in a return.
I don't think this is fiddling with semantics to suggest you've got the crowd funding model vs business model slightly wrong.
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Obvious attempt to grab attention by starting a controversy
Don't like what he says? don't read his stuff, don't comment about, don't even give it a second thought. Let the hate bandwagon jumpers circle jerk themselves for a bit till the thread quickly dies and maybe this guy will realise that such conduct is unacceptable
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I think the point that stuck with me the most is the fact that the gaming house is not something that can be consumed by the people who contributed to it. It's not a game; it's not a movie; it's not a piece of art. It's not even a social cause; something that can't be handled by the free market. It's a commercial issue for a specific organization. There's a reason why non-profit organizations exists when dealing with donations and even that concept has been abused.
It makes me think about the negative response to micro-transactions when that business model became popular or even DLCs. Even that makes more sense than this because even though it's just a virtual good, it's something that you can consume. It allows the game developers to have a more continuous source of income which they could use to further the development of the game which would benefit everyone not just those who paid. If the amount expected exceeds the amount needed for the gaming house, what exactly do you get and how exactly would that benefit those who contributed?
It's also not as simple as just ignoring it and saying that people can do whatever they wish with their money because even if you personally has not partake in it, the success of micro-transactions and DLCs has changed the gaming industry significantly. It's the same thing here. If a lot of e-sports organizations choose this donation route, it will change the industry for better or for worse.
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On May 02 2013 17:53 Heartscry wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 17:45 Brett wrote:
Crowdfunding is wrong!! The Chicago Bulls shouldn't charge people $30-$100 (pulling numbers out of my ass, I don't know the cost of an NBA ticket) for them to come and watch a game played. The bulls should have a better business model!
...... Wtf? If people don't want to donate... They don't. What on earth is this clown whinging about? I don't care for ROOT. I didn't donate. MIND FUCKING BLOWN EH? Most sports are actually 'crowd-funded' to a significant degree at the end of the day. Actually, the problem with your example is that if people pay for a match ticket, they are able to watch a match. They pay their money and are entertained in return. A product in exchange for money. A donation, on the other hand, is simply giving money (and an inconsistent amount, seeing as it is at the donators disgression) without receiving anything in a return. I don't think this is fiddling with semantics to suggest you've got the crowd funding model vs business model slightly wrong.
Look up the Barcelona's income model. They literally ask for their fans for money. Truth be told, the fans don't want the team's jersey to have any kind of ad, but to each their own.
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On May 02 2013 18:39 TiTanIum_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 17:53 Heartscry wrote:On May 02 2013 17:45 Brett wrote:
Crowdfunding is wrong!! The Chicago Bulls shouldn't charge people $30-$100 (pulling numbers out of my ass, I don't know the cost of an NBA ticket) for them to come and watch a game played. The bulls should have a better business model!
...... Wtf? If people don't want to donate... They don't. What on earth is this clown whinging about? I don't care for ROOT. I didn't donate. MIND FUCKING BLOWN EH? Most sports are actually 'crowd-funded' to a significant degree at the end of the day. Actually, the problem with your example is that if people pay for a match ticket, they are able to watch a match. They pay their money and are entertained in return. A product in exchange for money. A donation, on the other hand, is simply giving money (and an inconsistent amount, seeing as it is at the donators disgression) without receiving anything in a return. I don't think this is fiddling with semantics to suggest you've got the crowd funding model vs business model slightly wrong. Look up the Barcelona's income model. They literally ask for their fans for money. Truth be told, the fans don't want the team's jersey to have any kind of ad, but to each their own.
Actually, that's an interesting one too, as Barcelona fans actually "own" the club through a rights issue. So again, they receive something in return for their investment, however intangible. The fans might not want advertising on their shirts, but slowly but surely that has given way to financial necessity (previously for charity of course). The idea of being "more than a club" comes from this idea of fan ownership. They are incentivised to provide money through - the continued existence of the club, better players to be purchased with their money, better facilities etc. This could be an idea to take forward, however- could some form of rights issue work with an Esports organisation? Could fans "own" a team? That would be excellent.
For me - and I am repeating myself a fair bit here - this is completely different to a donation for a team house with absolutely no ownership or return.
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On May 02 2013 07:24 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 06:16 cybertopo wrote:On May 02 2013 03:58 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Richard Lewis likes to create controversy. He does write legit pieces from time to time but he stoops to Kotaku levels of nerd-baiting a little bit too much for my liking. OH THE IRONY Even if your assumption that TotalBiscuit does similar things to Richard Lewis is true, wouldn't that technically be hypocracy, and not irony? English majors help me out here.
I think he does similar things but in a different way. I cringe everytime I see a post in Reddit where Genna tells all of us how she treats the koreans so well (oh you silly Crank, did you read the contract? We are paying you more!  :3  <3)
That's why I considered it to be ironic rather than hypocritic, since it's not the same thing. But I hate when people have a BUSINESS and try to make it look like a charity. I like passionate guys like Artosis or Khaldor, I don't like these newcomers that left a sinking ship and began riding the new cool wave and try to look like this second coming of Mother Teresa.
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There is no professional team in the world that doesn't need it's fans..
Real Madrid or Manchester united, exist because they sell jerseys, sell tickets and sell TV sports rights..
Bigger teams = More fans = More money!
Root asking for help for their fans is absolutely normal..
Today i will be going to the Benfica game vs Fenerbace for the semi final of football's Euroleague with my benfica jersey(50€) and with my ticket (17.5€) + i am a Benfica club member (12.5€ per month) and that gives me lots of benefits like half price in the tickets etc..
So yeah.. the fans support the teams + sponsors + winnings
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Totally agree with him.
Maybe the bubble needs to burst to wake a few people in he industry up.
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On May 02 2013 18:55 shell wrote:
There is no professional team in the world that doesn't need it's fans..
Real Madrid or Manchester united, exist because they sell jerseys, sell tickets and sell TV sports rights..
Bigger teams = More fans = More money!
Root asking for help for their fans is absolutely normal..
Today i will be going to the Benfica game vs Fenerbace for the semi final of football's Euroleague with my benfica jersey(50€) and with my ticket (17.5€) + i am a Benfica club member (12.5€ per month) and that gives me lots of benefits like half price in the tickets etc..
So yeah.. the fans support the teams + sponsors + winnings
Right chaps we are going round in circles here, so this will be my last post in this thread.
In your example, you paid 50€ and got a kit, 17.5€ and got a match ticket, 12.5€ for all sorts of long term benefits, notwithstanding the attachment to your club and the feeling you financially support them. You received something at every stage for your money.
If you donate to ROOT, and by all means do, unless you are one of the top donators you will receive nothing tangible.
This is the core difference.
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On May 02 2013 18:47 Heartscry wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 18:39 TiTanIum_ wrote:On May 02 2013 17:53 Heartscry wrote:On May 02 2013 17:45 Brett wrote:
Crowdfunding is wrong!! The Chicago Bulls shouldn't charge people $30-$100 (pulling numbers out of my ass, I don't know the cost of an NBA ticket) for them to come and watch a game played. The bulls should have a better business model!
...... Wtf? If people don't want to donate... They don't. What on earth is this clown whinging about? I don't care for ROOT. I didn't donate. MIND FUCKING BLOWN EH? Most sports are actually 'crowd-funded' to a significant degree at the end of the day. Actually, the problem with your example is that if people pay for a match ticket, they are able to watch a match. They pay their money and are entertained in return. A product in exchange for money. A donation, on the other hand, is simply giving money (and an inconsistent amount, seeing as it is at the donators disgression) without receiving anything in a return. I don't think this is fiddling with semantics to suggest you've got the crowd funding model vs business model slightly wrong. Look up the Barcelona's income model. They literally ask for their fans for money. Truth be told, the fans don't want the team's jersey to have any kind of ad, but to each their own. Actually, that's an interesting one too, as Barcelona fans actually "own" the club through a rights issue. So again, they receive something in return for their investment, however intangible. The fans might not want advertising on their shirts, but slowly but surely that has given way to financial necessity (previously for charity of course). The idea of being "more than a club" comes from this idea of fan ownership. They are incentivised to provide money through - the continued existence of the club, better players to be purchased with their money, better facilities etc. This could be an idea to take forward, however- could some form of rights issue work with an Esports organisation? Could fans "own" a team? That would be excellent. For me - and I am repeating myself a fair bit here - this is completely different to a donation for a team house with absolutely no ownership or return.
You already identified the point that I was making. Fans fund their teams through many means, at times receiving only an intangible benefit. What root is doing is no different from my perspective.
E: You're ignoring the replay pack, no matter how little value you personally place on it.
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On May 02 2013 19:09 Heartscry wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 18:55 shell wrote:
There is no professional team in the world that doesn't need it's fans..
Real Madrid or Manchester united, exist because they sell jerseys, sell tickets and sell TV sports rights..
Bigger teams = More fans = More money!
Root asking for help for their fans is absolutely normal..
Today i will be going to the Benfica game vs Fenerbace for the semi final of football's Euroleague with my benfica jersey(50€) and with my ticket (17.5€) + i am a Benfica club member (12.5€ per month) and that gives me lots of benefits like half price in the tickets etc..
So yeah.. the fans support the teams + sponsors + winnings Right chaps we are going round in circles here, so this will be my last post in this thread. In your example, you paid 50€ and got a kit, 17.5€ and got a match ticket, 12.5€ for all sorts of long term benefits, notwithstanding the attachment to your club and the feeling you financially support them. You received something at every stage for your money. If you donate to ROOT, and by all means do, unless you are one of the top donators you will receive nothing tangible. This is the core difference.
You get the personal pleasure of helping a team you like! Of course a Sport is much more important then any Esport and it's also way more evolved.. maybe some day we can have a structure like a sport with a stadium etc..
The only problem i see with this is that they thread a thin line beetween getting what they want and need or absolutely failling if their fans and supporters can't put up the money.. The real problem is that a team with so many known players need to do this because they lack funding for "normal" sponsors
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guys, if you buy me a house I'll stream me losing to a bunch of better players all day too
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Everyone spends their money as they wish whats there to discuss?
Who is Richard anyway?
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On May 02 2013 19:09 Heartscry wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 18:55 shell wrote:
There is no professional team in the world that doesn't need it's fans..
Real Madrid or Manchester united, exist because they sell jerseys, sell tickets and sell TV sports rights..
Bigger teams = More fans = More money!
Root asking for help for their fans is absolutely normal..
Today i will be going to the Benfica game vs Fenerbace for the semi final of football's Euroleague with my benfica jersey(50€) and with my ticket (17.5€) + i am a Benfica club member (12.5€ per month) and that gives me lots of benefits like half price in the tickets etc..
So yeah.. the fans support the teams + sponsors + winnings Right chaps we are going round in circles here, so this will be my last post in this thread. In your example, you paid 50€ and got a kit, 17.5€ and got a match ticket, 12.5€ for all sorts of long term benefits, notwithstanding the attachment to your club and the feeling you financially support them. You received something at every stage for your money. If you donate to ROOT, and by all means do, unless you are one of the top donators you will receive nothing tangible. This is the core difference.
Do you realize that they didnt tell LOOK WE NEED UR MONEY PLZ SEND US ALL U HAVE............... ITS VOLUNTARY
god let people donate to whereever they want, its not ur money.
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On May 02 2013 11:00 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 10:01 govie wrote:I didnt donate, because it wasnt a good deal. Yes, i support esports and sometimes root, but im not a sucker My point : A good kickstarter gives something to the backers that they really want. Example : A weekly docu/realitysoap on rootgaming in return for a teamhouse and a 1 year prof. fulltime korean coach. I could watch there transition, the team and players, the highs and lows, problems in esport teams (between players?), a inside look how well the korean teamhouse model is gonna be implemented, now that would have been worth something to me. Plz monetize me!  You do realize how much money it costs to create a documentary or create ongoing content, right? Renting a teamhouse would be peanuts compared to the costs of employing content makers for an entire year.
1st. Yes but they can do it themselves.. so its free! Taping and cut and paste is not that hard. If they can stream, they can make a weekly vod about how there team is evolving.
2nd. Idea's like this would have been worth more than the original kickstarter that was held, Thats what kickstarters are about : giving peeps something they really want. I could give 100 more examples that would have been worth more to the esports crowd then the original kickstarter!
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Seeing how successful this has been I can imagine a lot of other teams are going to jump on the bandwagon and try and get donations for stuff, but as long as they don't do it on TL I don't care. It's easy enough to avoid looking at their websites.and streams. If it wasn't for this opinion column I wouldn't have even heard about this. Seems weird to get mad about something that is between Root and its fans and doesn't affect anyone else.
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On May 02 2013 19:58 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 11:00 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 02 2013 10:01 govie wrote:I didnt donate, because it wasnt a good deal. Yes, i support esports and sometimes root, but im not a sucker My point : A good kickstarter gives something to the backers that they really want. Example : A weekly docu/realitysoap on rootgaming in return for a teamhouse and a 1 year prof. fulltime korean coach. I could watch there transition, the team and players, the highs and lows, problems in esport teams (between players?), a inside look how well the korean teamhouse model is gonna be implemented, now that would have been worth something to me. Plz monetize me! You do realize how much money it costs to create a documentary or create ongoing content, right? Renting a teamhouse would be peanuts compared to the costs of employing content makers for an entire year. 1st. Yes but they can do it themselves.. so its free! Taping and cut and paste is not that hard. If they can stream, they can make a weekly vod about how there team is evolving. 2nd. Idea's like this would have been worth more than the original kickstarter that was held, Thats what kickstarters are about : giving peeps something they really want. I could give 100 more examples that would have been worth more to the esports crowd then the original kickstarter!
Having just listened to the Giant Bomb cast and hearing Vinny Caravella talk about all the effort it takes to shoot a press conference, I think you are under estimating the amount of time and effort it takes to create quality content. If it was as easy as cut and paste, we would all do it.
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On May 02 2013 20:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 19:58 govie wrote:On May 02 2013 11:00 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 02 2013 10:01 govie wrote:I didnt donate, because it wasnt a good deal. Yes, i support esports and sometimes root, but im not a sucker My point : A good kickstarter gives something to the backers that they really want. Example : A weekly docu/realitysoap on rootgaming in return for a teamhouse and a 1 year prof. fulltime korean coach. I could watch there transition, the team and players, the highs and lows, problems in esport teams (between players?), a inside look how well the korean teamhouse model is gonna be implemented, now that would have been worth something to me. Plz monetize me! You do realize how much money it costs to create a documentary or create ongoing content, right? Renting a teamhouse would be peanuts compared to the costs of employing content makers for an entire year. 1st. Yes but they can do it themselves.. so its free! Taping and cut and paste is not that hard. If they can stream, they can make a weekly vod about how there team is evolving. 2nd. Idea's like this would have been worth more than the original kickstarter that was held, Thats what kickstarters are about : giving peeps something they really want. I could give 100 more examples that would have been worth more to the esports crowd then the original kickstarter! Having just listened to the Giant Bomb cast and hearing Vinny Caravella talk about all the effort it takes to shoot a press conference, I think you are under estimating the amount of time and effort it takes to create quality content. If it was as easy as cut and paste, we would all do it.
I think your reaction on my post has nothing to do with what i pointed out!
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If the fans want to give money go exploit it, FUNDRAIS4ROOT !
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EPT
