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On May 02 2013 02:25 wo1fwood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 01:35 Bumblebee wrote:On May 02 2013 01:28 Plansix wrote:On May 02 2013 01:23 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 02 2013 01:23 Plansix wrote:On May 02 2013 01:16 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 02 2013 01:11 Plansix wrote:On May 02 2013 01:07 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On May 02 2013 01:05 Plansix wrote:On May 02 2013 01:00 Tppz! wrote:[quote] Waxangel aint part of the team: http://www.teamliquidpro.com/playerscheck your stats. and obviously the players talked to you and tried to make you change the region they play on for their kr-kr matches. its this way you work that makes you problems. "there is a rule about that but everyone would agree that it makes more sense to do it the supposed way? well lets allow it in this case since its just for better games on which everyone would gain something. but no there is a rule. we cant change." thats why ppl like esls administration and organisation a lot more. they think about the stuff and change if it makes more sense. Waxangel is a member of the Team Liquid staff, which sponsors the Team Liquid SC2 and Dota2 teams. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/TeamLiquid.net_Staff That's the Site staff buddy. Waxangel does write-ups and translations, but he's not part of the Team's actual management or decision-making staff. I guess we can split hairs like that if we really want to. I think MLG can still be grumpy and request that Team Liquid and its staff for both the site and team not make threads like this without sending a single email. That is the level of professional courtesy I would expect. It's not splitting hairs. TeamLiquid.net and Team Liquid the pro team are two separate entities, although they have very evident tie-ins. While someone like Nazgul or Bumblebee represents both, the TL.net staff do not represent the official stance of the actual pro team through their posts. Keep in mind this community was built on volunteers. Again, just because they're an integral part of keeping the community running doesn't necessarily mean they're involved with the team itself. I get that and respect the work they did. But I don't think it is unreasonable to the Team Liquid team to ask the website staff: "Hey, before you create a thread complaining about the rules for a particular event, please let us try to handle it internally first. We have to work with these people and we should let them respond first before bringing it to the community." This thread was created last night and the issue is not super urgent. An email could have been sent or a phone call could have been made this morning to MLG and checked on the rule, rather than go right to a public forum to complain about the issue. On May 02 2013 01:21 Bumblebee wrote:
Adam, you need to understand that first of all editors in chief of a website is not affiliated to our team and have nothing to do with how we operate. I did write to Jason Nye and I just got the response that there was nothing we could do about it. What more do you want? That is pretty much a case of having your cake and eating it too. "The people who work for our website that also has the same name as our team are not affiliated with the team. Also, we advertise for the team on that website and broadcast all MLGs events through that site as well. But they aren't affiliated with the team directly." I wouldn't accept an argument like that from Blizzard, MLG or any other business out there. I don't know why that is not acceptable. The team and the website is two different things, two different companies owned by the same person. We happen to share a brand and yes, you are right, we are here together but as stated in my post just above this one it was brought to our attention, but WaxAngel is completely free to do what he thinks is suitable as the editor in chief and for the community site side. If he wants to report and call people out, then that's his thing. I am not or don't want to be responsible for that. I mean, I can understand some of the inherent confusion on this, but perhaps a staff html page on .net and pro would help solve the confusion (like plainly showing who is affiliated with what)? I actually always wondered why TL didn't have a staff page to know who did what (I know there's one on LP but it seems an odd iteration there).
What's wrong with the bottom of this page:
http://www.teamliquidpro.com/players
?
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On May 02 2013 01:54 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 01:50 MichaelDonovan wrote:
Yeah sorry Wax I gotta agree with most of the people in this thread. Why should KR players be allowed to play in an NA tournament (presumably to take advantage of easier competition) and then also be allowed to play on the KR server? That would be silly and I really hope they don't change this decision. It's okay, I'm more sorry that you and many people don't actually comprehend the argument
It's possible to understand your argument and still disagree with it... or is that too hard to comprehend?
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Austria24417 Posts
On May 02 2013 02:26 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 02:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 02 2013 02:19 Sated wrote:On May 02 2013 02:09 nunez wrote:On May 02 2013 02:05 Sated wrote:On May 02 2013 02:00 nunez wrote:On May 02 2013 01:55 Sated wrote:On May 02 2013 01:53 fleeze wrote:On May 02 2013 01:52 Sated wrote:On May 02 2013 01:51 grs wrote:
[quote]
It won't. It is not a peer-to-peer client. Unless the casters lag that much, they stall the game, the quality will not be influenced. Why do you assume that casters won't lag NYC -> KR but the players will lag KR -> NA? because you don't know what you are talking about. they will have a higher ping, they won't "lag". High ping leads to lag... are you trolling? EDIT: If the casters start lagging it will effect both the broadcast and the players. I don't see how this is any different to the players having latency. All cross-server play leads to inefficiencies. observers / admins are only moving their camera around, this happens instantly in your client. however there is a time delay between issuing a command to a unit, and the unit actually executing the command. edit: the ping is usually constant to a server, and i'm fairly certain that the lag from na to kr is not big enough to prompt the 'waiting screen'. Maybe not, but then what do you do if two KR players get into WCS EU and (based on the count right now) 6 streams worth of casters have to switch to KR (EU -> KR lag is obviously awful). Does everyone then go to NA? Do the players get to play on KR? Do the players have to go to EU? Having a set rule prevents shit like this happening and keeps things simple, which is a good thing for a big tournament. That players didn't know about it beforehand (like Nazgul suggested) probably isn't great, however. you are changing the subject. It's actually the same subject since MVP just played in WCS EU with quite a bit of lag. Should the whole game have been moved to NA (Siw was in EU, MVP was in KR) to give the players the best conditions even though 6 streams worth of casters would have to bounce around (and some of those casters have been lagging games held on EU, so I don't want to know how bad they would be on NA). Rules need to be simple and enforceable. You can't define a point where it is easier for the casters to move or the players to move, because you can't define how much they're going to lag each other (if at all). The firm stance MLG have set out makes a lot more sense than trying to decide things on a case-by-case basis... This is different in that Siw actually lives in EU and Mvp doesn't. It's completely fair to give Mvp the disadvantage of playing on EU in this case. In Major vs HerO, there's actually no disadvantages given to anybody. Both would play with the same latency. The only ones who suffer are YOU AND ME AND US because the game quality will be lower. How is it "completely fair". It lowers the quality of the game to have one player playing at a disadvantage to the other. I thought this argument was about giving both players the fairest, best possible conditions..?
In this case the "This is WCS EU!" argument does apply. Siw would be given a disadvantage to balance out the disadvantage of Mvp. Which means it's unfair to Siw since he just chose the region he lives in and Mvp decided to switch over to EU. That's a disadvantage Mvp was fine with when chosing EU. And while that's true for Major/HerO as well when they play someone who resides in NA, there is absolutely no reason why they can't play on KR when facing each other. Nobody profits from that. It's worse for the players and viewers.
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On May 02 2013 02:25 Bumblebee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 02:24 Terrestrialrage wrote:
By allowing them to play on KR, you open up a slippery slope to just becoming WCS KR v2. Then next season, when its 75% Koreans, they all play on KR server too, then next season its 95% Koreans etc. Its a regional deterrent, and I fully agree with it. Quality of games is not the issue here, regional protection is. I personally am glad that Blizzard had the foresight to understand this and are sticking to their rules. Regional protection should not be done by enforcing worse game quality by having two Koreans play on a foreign server. They should be done by region locking or force people to be residents of the actual continent they're competing in.
but that decision is already made and shouldn't be watered down.
Ideally a region switch should take 30 seconds, but i don't think its realistic.
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If Major and Hero signed up for this tournament knowing the rules stated that they must play on NA for all their matches, then there's nothing to complain about when MLG says "you must play on NA"
If they didn't know or it wasn't explicitly stated, then maybe they can request to play on KR.
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it boggles the mind why european / north american players haven't made a player association yet so they have a bit more weight to throw around when it comes to issues like this.
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On May 02 2013 02:18 Bumblebee wrote:
I don't even see why anyone of you would vote for they should be playing on NA server. Ultimately, it's you guys who are suffering. The players would be on equal latency, but the overall game quality is lower than what it would be on the Korean server. It just gives you a worse experience, how are you voting for that as a fan lol
For one, like others have been saying, you can't really change the rules mid season when other koreans have already played. Secondly, people are just pissed off that there is now no WCS NA and are looking for any way to have the koreans be penalized so they don't play in WCS "NA" again, which I can understand. Because ultimately, it's bad for the NA scene when Koreans just win the NA premier tournaments. It stops potentially amazing NA players from breaking onto the scene, or even trying to. And it stops people new to the game from giving a fuck because a ton of new comers to the scene and people already fans of the scene want to see people from their own country playing and winning, of course.
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On May 02 2013 02:18 Bumblebee wrote:
I don't even see why anyone of you would vote for they should be playing on NA server. Ultimately, it's you guys who are suffering. The players would be on equal latency, but the overall game quality is lower than what it would be on the Korean server. It just gives you a worse experience, how are you voting for that as a fan lol
Because this is WCS AM and the players playing should be based in AM, therefore they're playing on the AM ladder and contributing to the development of the AM scene. Anything which makes it harder for players outside the AM region to play in this tournament is a good thing in my mind and the mind of most fans because ultimately Hero should not even be allowed to play in this tournament. The short term gain of a slightly better Bo3 is not worth losing the principle that this is a purely AM server tournament that should serve the interests of players who play on the AM server.
What about that is hard to understand?
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Austria24417 Posts
On May 02 2013 02:33 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 02:18 Bumblebee wrote:
I don't even see why anyone of you would vote for they should be playing on NA server. Ultimately, it's you guys who are suffering. The players would be on equal latency, but the overall game quality is lower than what it would be on the Korean server. It just gives you a worse experience, how are you voting for that as a fan lol Because this is WCS AM and the players playing should be based in AM, therefore they're playing on the AM ladder and contributing to the development of the AM scene. Anything which makes it harder for players outside the AM region to play in this tournament is a good thing in my mind and the mind of most fans because ultimately Hero should not even be allowed to play in this tournament. The short term gain of a slightly better Bo3 is not worth losing the principle that this is a purely AM server tournament that should serve the interests of players who play on the AM server. What about that is hard to understand?
You make a completely different argument. You completely, 100%, missed the point.
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On May 02 2013 02:18 Bumblebee wrote:
I don't even see why anyone of you would vote for they should be playing on NA server. Ultimately, it's you guys who are suffering. The players would be on equal latency, but the overall game quality is lower than what it would be on the Korean server. It just gives you a worse experience, how are you voting for that as a fan lol
You are correct that the games will be worse on the NA server, but maybe that's not why people are voting that way. I think you might want to look at this as peoples feelings on WCS itself, rather than the specific game. People want players to play in the AM region. People want their own events in their region and if everyone had their way, WSC AM would be off line in NYC. WSC is trying to get their, but people don't want to wait two or three seasons before they have an offline league.
It is pretty irrational and will have a negative effect on those specific games. But maybe the community has moved on from making exceptions for people who want to play online from different regions. They could just be saying, "Either come here or don't play."
One thing is for sure, I think we are all pretty surprised at the amount of people who don't mind that MLG is forcing all games to be played on the NA server.
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On May 02 2013 02:33 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 02:18 Bumblebee wrote:
I don't even see why anyone of you would vote for they should be playing on NA server. Ultimately, it's you guys who are suffering. The players would be on equal latency, but the overall game quality is lower than what it would be on the Korean server. It just gives you a worse experience, how are you voting for that as a fan lol Because this is WCS AM and the players playing should be based in AM, therefore they're playing on the AM ladder and contributing to the development of the AM scene. Anything which makes it harder for players outside the AM region to play in this tournament is a good thing in my mind and the mind of most fans because ultimately Hero should not even be allowed to play in this tournament. The short term gain of a slightly better Bo3 is not worth losing the principle that this is a purely AM server tournament that should serve the interests of players who play on the AM server. What about that is hard to understand?
Don't forget the fact that it's mid-season and this rule has already forced Korean vs Korean matches to be played on Americas server.
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it seems like those who want the games on the KR server are willing to discard concern for basic fairness for just one match. Even if this match ends up sucking because of lag, there are many other matches. Of course, it matters a lot to Major and Hero, but I'm saying this from the perspective of an observer who is a fan of neither player.
Other tournaments already do the regional switch, so this inflexibility is not setting a precedent for the future. It's just this match (and maybe 1-2 more later on).
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On May 02 2013 02:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 02:19 Sated wrote:On May 02 2013 02:09 nunez wrote:On May 02 2013 02:05 Sated wrote:On May 02 2013 02:00 nunez wrote:On May 02 2013 01:55 Sated wrote:On May 02 2013 01:53 fleeze wrote:On May 02 2013 01:52 Sated wrote:On May 02 2013 01:51 grs wrote:On May 02 2013 01:49 Sated wrote:
I like how this argument is still going on as if the quality of the games won't be affected at all by the fact that the casters, observers and admins are going to be in the game from NYC -> KR... It won't. It is not a peer-to-peer client. Unless the casters lag that much, they stall the game, the quality will not be influenced. Why do you assume that casters won't lag NYC -> KR but the players will lag KR -> NA? because you don't know what you are talking about. they will have a higher ping, they won't "lag". High ping leads to lag... are you trolling? EDIT: If the casters start lagging it will effect both the broadcast and the players. I don't see how this is any different to the players having latency. All cross-server play leads to inefficiencies. observers / admins are only moving their camera around, this happens instantly in your client. however there is a time delay between issuing a command to a unit, and the unit actually executing the command. edit: the ping is usually constant to a server, and i'm fairly certain that the lag from na to kr is not big enough to prompt the 'waiting screen'. Maybe not, but then what do you do if two KR players get into WCS EU and (based on the count right now) 6 streams worth of casters have to switch to KR (EU -> KR lag is obviously awful). Does everyone then go to NA? Do the players get to play on KR? Do the players have to go to EU? Having a set rule prevents shit like this happening and keeps things simple, which is a good thing for a big tournament. That players didn't know about it beforehand (like Nazgul suggested) probably isn't great, however. you are changing the subject. It's actually the same subject since MVP just played in WCS EU with quite a bit of lag. Should the whole game have been moved to NA (Siw was in EU, MVP was in KR) to give the players the best conditions even though 6 streams worth of casters would have to bounce around (and some of those casters have been lagging games held on EU, so I don't want to know how bad they would be on NA). Rules need to be simple and enforceable. You can't define a point where it is easier for the casters to move or the players to move, because you can't define how much they're going to lag each other (if at all). The firm stance MLG have set out makes a lot more sense than trying to decide things on a case-by-case basis... This is different in that Siw actually lives in EU and Mvp doesn't. It's completely fair to give Mvp the disadvantage of playing on EU in this case. In Major vs HerO, there's actually no disadvantages given to anybody. Both would play with the same latency. The only ones who suffer are YOU AND ME AND US because the game quality will be lower.
Both players playing in NA (with lag) is NOT the same as both players playing in KR (without lag). It's like saying a race between 2 people where both people have their hands tied behind their back is the same as a race where their hands are free - one person might be better at running with his hands tied while the other guy is better at running with free arms.
Since they both signed up to play in laggy situations in this tournament, it is most fair that they play in laggy situations throughout - and my understanding is that precedence was already set by Nestea vs. Apocalypse.
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On May 02 2013 02:33 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 02:18 Bumblebee wrote:
I don't even see why anyone of you would vote for they should be playing on NA server. Ultimately, it's you guys who are suffering. The players would be on equal latency, but the overall game quality is lower than what it would be on the Korean server. It just gives you a worse experience, how are you voting for that as a fan lol Because this is WCS AM and the players playing should be based in AM, therefore they're playing on the AM ladder and contributing to the development of the AM scene. Anything which makes it harder for players outside the AM region to play in this tournament is a good thing in my mind and the mind of most fans because ultimately Hero should not even be allowed to play in this tournament. The short term gain of a slightly better Bo3 is not worth losing the principle that this is a purely AM server tournament that should serve the interests of players who play on the AM server. What about that is hard to understand?
blame that to blizzard not to the players, you people seem to miss the point if it is a korean player vs a american player(living in america) than obviously all games should be played on us servers, but if its a korean vs a korean, or in my case american living in korea vs a korean, why in the fuck do we have to play on us server? IT MAKES NO SENSE MAKES ME SO UPSET THAT ALL THE FANS THINK ITS FINE IF WE PLAY ON NA JUST CAUSE BLIZZARD DECIDED TO ALLOW PEOPLE OUTSIDE AMERICA TO PLAY ON WCS AMERICA. FOR FUCK SAKE
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On May 02 2013 02:29 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 02:26 Sated wrote:On May 02 2013 02:21 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 02 2013 02:19 Sated wrote:On May 02 2013 02:09 nunez wrote:On May 02 2013 02:05 Sated wrote:On May 02 2013 02:00 nunez wrote:On May 02 2013 01:55 Sated wrote:On May 02 2013 01:53 fleeze wrote:On May 02 2013 01:52 Sated wrote:
[quote]
Why do you assume that casters won't lag NYC -> KR but the players will lag KR -> NA? because you don't know what you are talking about. they will have a higher ping, they won't "lag". High ping leads to lag... are you trolling? EDIT: If the casters start lagging it will effect both the broadcast and the players. I don't see how this is any different to the players having latency. All cross-server play leads to inefficiencies. observers / admins are only moving their camera around, this happens instantly in your client. however there is a time delay between issuing a command to a unit, and the unit actually executing the command. edit: the ping is usually constant to a server, and i'm fairly certain that the lag from na to kr is not big enough to prompt the 'waiting screen'. Maybe not, but then what do you do if two KR players get into WCS EU and (based on the count right now) 6 streams worth of casters have to switch to KR (EU -> KR lag is obviously awful). Does everyone then go to NA? Do the players get to play on KR? Do the players have to go to EU? Having a set rule prevents shit like this happening and keeps things simple, which is a good thing for a big tournament. That players didn't know about it beforehand (like Nazgul suggested) probably isn't great, however. you are changing the subject. It's actually the same subject since MVP just played in WCS EU with quite a bit of lag. Should the whole game have been moved to NA (Siw was in EU, MVP was in KR) to give the players the best conditions even though 6 streams worth of casters would have to bounce around (and some of those casters have been lagging games held on EU, so I don't want to know how bad they would be on NA). Rules need to be simple and enforceable. You can't define a point where it is easier for the casters to move or the players to move, because you can't define how much they're going to lag each other (if at all). The firm stance MLG have set out makes a lot more sense than trying to decide things on a case-by-case basis... This is different in that Siw actually lives in EU and Mvp doesn't. It's completely fair to give Mvp the disadvantage of playing on EU in this case. In Major vs HerO, there's actually no disadvantages given to anybody. Both would play with the same latency. The only ones who suffer are YOU AND ME AND US because the game quality will be lower. How is it "completely fair". It lowers the quality of the game to have one player playing at a disadvantage to the other. I thought this argument was about giving both players the fairest, best possible conditions..? In this case the "This is WCS EU!" argument does apply. Siw would be given a disadvantage to balance out the disadvantage of Mvp. Which means it's unfair to Siw since he just chose the region he lives in and Mvp decided to switch over to EU. That's a disadvantage Mvp was fine with when chosing EU. And while that's true for Major/HerO as well when they play someone who resides in NA, there is absolutely no reason why they can't play on KR when facing each other. Nobody profits from that. It's worse for the players and viewers.
Pretty much every player who lives and plays from America benefits because it makes it more awkward and less pleasant for non Americans to play in this tournament.
Or eventually it will become 32 Koreans playing every game on the Korean server in WCS NA.
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Friends, we're all in the same boat. We want what is best for all of us. Most of the arguments you're using have nothing to do with the actual game and this rule, but more so that you think there should be a region lock differently than the one being used. This rule does not make much sense since you allowed Koreans in.
If you want a different WCS NA with a different rule on the region lock, that is where your blood, sweat and tears should be spent since it'd actually matter and be useful there.
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On May 02 2013 02:36 MajOr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 02:33 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2013 02:18 Bumblebee wrote:
I don't even see why anyone of you would vote for they should be playing on NA server. Ultimately, it's you guys who are suffering. The players would be on equal latency, but the overall game quality is lower than what it would be on the Korean server. It just gives you a worse experience, how are you voting for that as a fan lol Because this is WCS AM and the players playing should be based in AM, therefore they're playing on the AM ladder and contributing to the development of the AM scene. Anything which makes it harder for players outside the AM region to play in this tournament is a good thing in my mind and the mind of most fans because ultimately Hero should not even be allowed to play in this tournament. The short term gain of a slightly better Bo3 is not worth losing the principle that this is a purely AM server tournament that should serve the interests of players who play on the AM server. What about that is hard to understand? blame that to blizzard not to the players, you people seem to miss the point if it is a korean player vs a american player(living in america) than obviously all games should be played on us servers, but if its a korean vs a korean, or in my case american living in korea vs a korean, why in the fuck do we have to play on us server? IT MAKES NO SENSE MAKES ME SO UPSET THAT ALL THE FANS THINK ITS FINE IF WE PLAY ON NA JUST CAUSE BLIZZARD DECIDED TO ALLOW PEOPLE OUTSIDE AMERICA TO PLAY ON WCS AMERICA. FOR FUCK SAKE
What server did Nestea vs Apoc happen on?
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On May 02 2013 02:35 delayed reflex wrote:
Since they both signed up to play in laggy situations in this tournament, it is most fair that they play in laggy situations throughout - and my understanding is that precedence was already set by Nestea vs. Apocalypse.
The bolded part is very much incorrect.
On May 01 2013 20:24 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 20:13 Plansix wrote:On May 01 2013 20:07 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
It's unfortunate, because it doesn't deter Koreans when they have to play other Koreans on NA instead of KR. They will think it is too bad because everyone is uncomfortable and plays worse , but realistically they realize skill wise nothing changes between them and their opponent. There will be no noticeable effects to the WCS signups by having this rule. It may satisfy a few people who out of spite enjoy everyone being uncomfortable, though. Why do you assume that the people who agree with the decision are spiteful? I personally understand MLGs and Blizzard's stance that players need to play on the server they agreed to play on. Exceptions lead to more exceptions in cases like this, with the same argument that "the game won't be impacted and both the players are on equal footing". I understand your player were would prefer to play on KR, but I am sure a lot of players would prefer to play on the server that gave them the least lag. It isn't really a big deal, but your argument isn't correct as the WCS rules did not exist when people signed up. Believing the rules shouldn't be changed is a different opinion from believing it is a good rule, anyway.
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On May 02 2013 02:34 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 02:33 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On May 02 2013 02:18 Bumblebee wrote:
I don't even see why anyone of you would vote for they should be playing on NA server. Ultimately, it's you guys who are suffering. The players would be on equal latency, but the overall game quality is lower than what it would be on the Korean server. It just gives you a worse experience, how are you voting for that as a fan lol Because this is WCS AM and the players playing should be based in AM, therefore they're playing on the AM ladder and contributing to the development of the AM scene. Anything which makes it harder for players outside the AM region to play in this tournament is a good thing in my mind and the mind of most fans because ultimately Hero should not even be allowed to play in this tournament. The short term gain of a slightly better Bo3 is not worth losing the principle that this is a purely AM server tournament that should serve the interests of players who play on the AM server. What about that is hard to understand? You make a completely different argument. You completely, 100%, missed the point.
No no, you're the one who missed the point he was making. He's agreeing that it will be a reduced quality of games for the fans now, but better for the fans in the long run when less Koreans, if any, will be playing in WCS AM.
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EPT
