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On May 06 2013 08:27 Morlock wrote:
Shakuras Plataeu and Metalopolis bad maps for Zergs?
I'll give you Metal after they eliminated a) close spawns and b) blockable ramps. But you know that took over a half a year to happen right?
Shakuras Plateau though was a pretty bad Zerg map in both of it's iterations.
The backdoor rocks made vertical spawning positions completely impossible for Zerg to stop early aggression; and even when the rocks were removed, it was a build in "cliff" for Terran players to use.
The first 3 bases in a triangle made it infinitely turte-able for both Terran and Protoss and Zerg couldn't do much about it.
Of course on ladder this was a different situation where most league games didn't feature 3rd bases...
Okay...end of conversation, I think. You simply don't want to admit that Zerg players went so long while failing to determine (1) the insane cost effectiveness of roaches, popularized by Stephano (whence "Stephano roach"), (2) their ability to freely expand to 3 bases and mass queens without repercussion, (3) the fact that infestors are the best units in the game, and (4) the game-ending brood lord-infestor composition.
Zergs, including Idra, didn't know about ANY of these absolutely crucial and pivotal strategies for the entire period they were behind in win rate.
For the roach.. you do know that the roach had 3 range and was kitable by both reapers *and* hellions right? 3 range also meant that Protoss could FFE in a way that literally made it *impossible* for zerg to attack the cannons pre-lair.
Also, did you forget that when the Roach was buffed to 4 range that Idra immediately won MLG? So to say he didn't "grasp the roach" is completely revisionist. He used it before and once it was buffed he won. Does that sound like a meta-game thing to you?
Before the infestor was buffed do you know what the ZvP composition was roach / hydra? You threw in corrupters to kill Colo. Then the Void-Ray Colo builds happened and the infestor was buffed because without it there wasn't much Zerg could do against this composition.
Another fun fact, when this buff was announced did you know Idra said this might make the Infestor too strong actually (and the Infestor has received a few nerfs since then).
You're points are all so reliant on patches making them possible that I don't even know what to say...
Zerg couldn't get to 3 bases for free without the Queen buff; if the Zerg couldn't start the game on such a high economy it was very difficult to transition into a big Hive army. Spawning 10 corrupters at once to morph into broods once Greater Spire finishes requires a huge bank; if you don't do that then you have have dead supply in corrupters for a while, plus telegraph the timing on your transition.
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On May 07 2013 06:13 Pharnax wrote:
EIther you didn't watch GSL back then, or you are supressing some bad memories. Whatever it is, that post was uncalled for, especially since you are completely WRONG in every possible way.
Wrong relative to someone with a selective memory who lacks basic critical thinking skills.
Watch the episodes of fucking imbalanced, co-hosted by Idra himself. They're still on Youtube; just watch those fucking episodes. Several months into the game, the problem wasn't 4 gate. It was the death ball. And that is the considered opinion of the arch Zerg balance whiner himself when his race was at its nadir.
How was the death ball stopped in the end? Partly because of the void ray nerf...but mostly because Zerg learned how to play, started using roach pressure, began massing infestors and building more than a few spinecrawlers...and discovered brood-infestor.
What we're seeing in this thread is face-saving rationalizations to cover for a failure of problem-solving skills.
You'll understand the game a lot better if you accept that the meta-game is important, and some players have success in solving strategic problems...whereas others don't. It's exactly what we're seeing all over again in HotS as Zergs like Stephano sit at the top of the ladder, whereas Idra languishes around #30 and blames the game for his failures.
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On May 07 2013 08:21 Wuster wrote:You are so wrong again.... Here's the patch in response to Colossus - Void Ray. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.3.0Do you see a Void Ray change in there? Do you know what everyone else sees? A gigantic Infestor buff. Okay, on second thoughts, I accept that the infestor buff was probably the most significant factor which allowed Zerg to pull ahead.
All of that waffle about maps, void rays, 4 gate, reaper rush, etc., was unnecessary.
But the point remains that you shouldn't underestimate the meta-game development. The reason Idra was such a limited player was, first and foremost, he was constantly behind on the metagame. And the same is happening in HotS.
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On May 07 2013 08:56 Morlock wrote:Okay, on second thoughts, I accept that the infestor buff was probably the most significant factor which allowed Zerg to pull ahead. All of that waffle about maps, void rays, 4 gate, reaper rush, etc., was unnecessary.But the point remains that you shouldn't underestimate the meta-game development. The reason Idra was such a limited player was, first and foremost, he was constantly behind on the metagame. And the same is happening in HotS.
No it wasn't. Zerg had to deal with soo much crap in the start WoL it wasn't even funny.
Wanna know how bad it was? Reaching lair against well controlled 5rax reaper was nearly impossible since you only had slow roaches with range 3 that get kited for eternity and zerglings that get picked off before you get a decent amount to surround them. This was also when reapers had nades for buildings so spines were also gone.
Once again, you are talking about stuff that is by now obvious by everyone here you were clearly not here to see it for yourself and have no clue how bad zergs had it in the start. Meta game developing is one thing, dealing with utter bullshit (like 5rax reaper) is something completely different.
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On May 07 2013 10:09 Assirra wrote:
No it wasn't. Zerg had to deal with soo much crap in the start WoL it wasn't even funny.
Wanna know how bad it was? Reaching lair against well controlled 5rax reaper was nearly impossible since you only had slow roaches with range 3 that get kited for eternity and zerglings that get picked off before you get a decent amount to surround them. This was also when reapers had nades for buildings so spines were also gone.. I've already presented statistics to show that Protoss's win rate, repeatedly throughout WoL, was comparable to Zerg's win rate at its nadir.
Imba bullshit for one race is "shoulda, woulda, coulda" for another race.
I'm not convinced that well controlled 5 rax reaper was "nearly impossible" to stop. If it were, NesTea would not have been able to dominate tournaments as he did with scores like 4-0 every game.
The Zerg PR machine explain this away by implying that NesTea is "superhuman"...just like they're doing now with respect to Life and Leenock. He wasn't superhuman; he just innovated, solved the problems, and knew the right strategies.
I agree that Terran was OP in that stage of the game. But the patches made it so that Zerg was OP...and where was the Zerg PR machine then?
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On April 30 2013 06:23 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 06:18 BoggieMan wrote:
I really admire idras mechanicaly macro focused style, too bad he isen't doing so well in sc2 as he was in bw... He's actually had more success I think. Won an mlg, ipl, iem, asus ROG and several other events.
I would argue the opposite. Even though he didn't have the titles in BW, his skill level when compared to the Koreans was higher wasn't it? He would have been a very good B-teamer in BW and the only foreign one. Now he would be a B-Teamer foreigner among quite a few other foreign B-teamers both of which some would argue are better.
Edit: I guess i misread this. Success can be measured in different ways, and the biggest factor is wins of a tournament for money and that he has done much more of in SC2
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On May 07 2013 21:56 Morlock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 10:09 Assirra wrote:
No it wasn't. Zerg had to deal with soo much crap in the start WoL it wasn't even funny.
Wanna know how bad it was? Reaching lair against well controlled 5rax reaper was nearly impossible since you only had slow roaches with range 3 that get kited for eternity and zerglings that get picked off before you get a decent amount to surround them. This was also when reapers had nades for buildings so spines were also gone.. I've already presented statistics to show that Protoss's win rate, repeatedly throughout WoL, was comparable to Zerg's win rate at its nadir. Imba bullshit for one race is "shoulda, woulda, coulda" for another race. I'm not convinced that well controlled 5 rax reaper was "nearly impossible" to stop. If it were, NesTea would not have been able to dominate tournaments as he did with scores like 4-0 every game. The Zerg PR machine explain this away by implying that NesTea is "superhuman"...just like they're doing now with respect to Life and Leenock. He wasn't superhuman; he just innovated, solved the problems, and knew the right strategies. I agree that Terran was OP in that stage of the game. But the patches made it so that Zerg was OP...and where was the Zerg PR machine then?
The FD title especially is embarrassing for non-zergs.
Zerg PR machine was working at all times but the threads got locked because both TL and Blizzard staff hate zerg.
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On May 07 2013 21:56 Morlock wrote:
I'm not convinced that well controlled 5 rax reaper was "nearly impossible" to stop. If it were, NesTea would not have been able to dominate tournaments as he did with scores like 4-0 every game.
It helps that Nestea never had to play against 5-rax reaper to win his GSL titles.
5-rax reaper was patched out of the game during GSL open season 1.
You really need to stop trying to try to tell us what SC2 was like in 2010 / early 2011.
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On May 08 2013 04:18 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 21:56 Morlock wrote:
I'm not convinced that well controlled 5 rax reaper was "nearly impossible" to stop. If it were, NesTea would not have been able to dominate tournaments as he did with scores like 4-0 every game.
It helps that Nestea never had to play against 5-rax reaper to win his GSL titles. 5-rax reaper was patched out of the game during GSL open season 1. You really need to stop trying to try to tell us what SC2 was like in 2010 / early 2011. Then stop mentioning irrelevant facts. In a debate I give my opponents the benefit of the doubt by assuming they're not waffling.
If 5 rax reaper was patched during open season 1, then it's completely irrelevant to the period we're discussing when Zerg was in its slump. And it's nothing but filler, waffle, and yet another excuse contrived by the Zerg PR machine.
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Protoss has had the worst winrates since like forever but i always see zerg and terrans bickering for some reason, i find this kinda odd.
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On May 09 2013 04:49 unkkz wrote:
Protoss has had the worst winrates since like forever but i always see zerg and terrans bickering for some reason, i find this kinda odd.
It's entirely subjective, much like how others mention "the Zerg PR machine" in every other post as if that somehow validates anything. Theoretically it could be a number of players thing, but I kind of doubt even that much is true atm.
Personally I wouldn't want to be identified with any of the balance whiners just because they may play the same race anyway. Don't be smug because you remember less whiners this way or that, be happy because you're not one of them.
Unless you are. In which case I'm sure you have other qualities. Possibly.
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Really good article about one of the most know players!
Awesome to see someone else than Thorin do these great articles.
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So if Idra gets knocked out of WCS, retirement? Seriously he hasn´t done well for sooo long.
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On May 09 2013 09:32 unkkz wrote:
So if Idra gets knocked out of WCS, retirement? Seriously he hasn´t done well for sooo long.
I wonder who cares about him anymore
Edit: After what I saw what he said to his fans on TL I lost all respect for him
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On May 09 2013 09:32 unkkz wrote:
So if Idra gets knocked out of WCS, retirement? Seriously he hasn´t done well for sooo long.
what foreigner has? there's like 3 or 4 of em :D
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He showed great potential vs polt in game 1 of their series and played almost up to par with Revival who has been in a korean training house under a coach.
Ofcourse we hoped he would do a bit better, the end of game 1 and going into game 2 with polt, just leaves a very very sour taste.
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Typical idrA play in the WCS so far. He's such a shit player. Anyone else hoping for an epic Demuslim vs idrA meeting in the Challenger league, with Demu stream rolling through amidst early gg's and rage tears from the midget ginger known as idrA, the man-child who has admitted to having "no passion for the game".
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On May 09 2013 09:32 unkkz wrote:
So if Idra gets knocked out of WCS, retirement? Seriously he hasn´t done well for sooo long.
He doesn't care I think.
Streaming is where his money come from, and what he does ( or doesn't do ) in tournaments give him more viewers and more money.
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I will just choose to remember the good times. Feels appropriate.
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EPT
