In "IdrA - The Long Road to Korea, I have summarized the career of one of Starcraft's most notorious characters: Greg "IdrA" Fields, who practiced in Korea throughout 2007-2010. Enduring 12-hour days of training, IdrA would eventually go on to become one of the best non-Korean the game had ever produced, winning almost every non-Korean tournament he entered.
Some excerpts:
IdrA's initial impressions on his eSTRO coaches:
"After all, he was the first non-Korean in Korea to ever dedicate himself fully to the game. Even the coaches at eSTRO were surprised at the amount of Practice he put in, and in an interview with gamenews.afreeca, eSTRO Coach Jiho Lee said "He is clearly different from Bertrand and Guillaume", referring of course to the famous Bertrand "Elky" Grospellier and Guillome "Grrr..." Patry who were by far the most successful non-Koreans active in Korea before IdrA."
The story of IdrA's First time in an official KeSPA game.
IdrA was put in group 4 of group stage bracket A, where he would face up against a, then, unknown practice partner for Hwaseung Oz called NeeL who is today known as the GSL Season 2013 semi-finalist Symbol. Game one consisted of IdrA fighting fiercely against Symbol for 36 minutes. After a very back-and-forth game IdrA was eventually greeted with the victory screen. The americans' first official game in Korea had been a victory, but instead of turning his victory in to momentum in the following game, IdrA crumbled as a poorly placed armory managed to get picked off by Symbol's mutas, prompting IdrA to simply attempt an attack with his remaining goliaths that were swept up easily by Symbol's remaining army. In game 3, IdrA had already lost before the game had begun. Taken aback by his loss in game 2 he attempted a bunker-rush. With one marine. Symbol cleaned up the attack with minimal amounts of effort and IdrA had been eliminated in the first round of the tournament
2009, the crowning of the foreign bonjwa:
2009 was definitely IdrA's most successful year in progaming, showing off his growing potential at the end of 2008 he decided to not only focus his attention towards the Korean scene, but the international one as well. Participating in a total of 14 events throughout the entire year he won 7 of them, including tournaments with Korean and Chinese competition. It was the result of roughly 1 year of dedicated practice in Korea, ahead in both tactics and overall knowledge of the game, CJ's growing terran talent dominated the non-Korean online tournament scene to such an extent that people within the English-speaking community were wondering if he should be eligible to compete in online tournaments at all.
He wasn't the first non Korean in Korea to dedicate himself to the game. Why does everyone forget grrr? Grr won a freaking starleague, I think that earns him a bit more credit than the estro coach gave him.
On April 30 2013 06:01 Jaaaaasper wrote: He wasn't the first non Korean in Korea to dedicate himself to the game. Why does everyone forget grrr? Grr won a freaking starleague, I think that earns him a bit more credit than the estro coach gave him.
On April 30 2013 06:01 Jaaaaasper wrote: He wasn't the first non Korean in Korea to dedicate himself to the game. Why does everyone forget grrr? Grr won a freaking starleague, I think that earns him a bit more credit than the estro coach gave him.
The quote literally mentions Grrr in the next sentence or two.
On April 30 2013 06:01 Jaaaaasper wrote: He wasn't the first non Korean in Korea to dedicate himself to the game. Why does everyone forget grrr? Grr won a freaking starleague, I think that earns him a bit more credit than the estro coach gave him.
Read the article maybe ?
Read my second sentence maybe? I didn't say that grr didn't get mentioned, I said he didn't get enough credit
On April 30 2013 06:03 5ukkub wrote: And Draco, NoNy, Ret etc.
IdrA stayed the longest, that's all...
No it's exactly the opposite. The reason because Draco,NoNy and Ret etc didn't stay in Korea for long, was because they weren't able to put in the effort that was required and that Idra was able to bring in. They could not keep up to the incredibly hard training schedule in the pro houses and the unkown and thus for sure uncomfortable enviroment and this is why Idra is named here as the one that was dedicated most among those people. (Realize that this statement has nothing to do with the skill level of these people)
On April 30 2013 06:01 Jaaaaasper wrote: He wasn't the first non Korean in Korea to dedicate himself to the game. Why does everyone forget grrr? Grr won a freaking starleague, I think that earns him a bit more credit than the estro coach gave him.
Read the article maybe ?
Read my second sentence maybe? I didn't say that grr didn't get mentioned, I said he didn't get enough credit
Dedication does not mean succes or skill. Realize this please, while reading the article.
On April 30 2013 06:01 Jaaaaasper wrote: He wasn't the first non Korean in Korea to dedicate himself to the game. Why does everyone forget grrr? Grr won a freaking starleague, I think that earns him a bit more credit than the estro coach gave him.
Read the article maybe ?
Read my second sentence maybe? I didn't say that grr didn't get mentioned, I said he didn't get enough credit
Idra played in korea at a time when people actually had somewhat of an idea what they were doing, the level of play isn't comparable
On April 30 2013 06:01 Jaaaaasper wrote: He wasn't the first non Korean in Korea to dedicate himself to the game. Why does everyone forget grrr? Grr won a freaking starleague, I think that earns him a bit more credit than the estro coach gave him.
Read the article maybe ?
Read my second sentence maybe? I didn't say that grr didn't get mentioned, I said he didn't get enough credit
On April 30 2013 06:01 Jaaaaasper wrote: He wasn't the first non Korean in Korea to dedicate himself to the game. Why does everyone forget grrr? Grr won a freaking starleague, I think that earns him a bit more credit than the estro coach gave him.
Read the article maybe ?
Read my second sentence maybe? I didn't say that grr didn't get mentioned, I said he didn't get enough credit
This article is about Idra you know.
Why do you bring logic into these arguments? I mean the word dedication is super subjective, but that doesn't mean we can't argue about the first few sentences for like 20 pages in the thread. Its what we do here.
On April 30 2013 06:18 BoggieMan wrote: I really admire idras mechanicaly macro focused style, too bad he isen't doing so well in sc2 as he was in bw...
He's actually had more success I think. Won an mlg, ipl, iem, asus ROG and several other events.
On April 30 2013 06:01 Jaaaaasper wrote: He wasn't the first non Korean in Korea to dedicate himself to the game. Why does everyone forget grrr? Grr won a freaking starleague, I think that earns him a bit more credit than the estro coach gave him.
The quote literally mentions Grrr in the next sentence or two.
Look, if he took the time to keep reading, he would have risked developing a lethal case of patience
On April 30 2013 06:18 BoggieMan wrote: I really admire idras mechanicaly macro focused style, too bad he isen't doing so well in sc2 as he was in bw...
He's actually had more success I think. Won an mlg, ipl, iem, asus ROG and several other events.
yeah people are quick to say he hasn't been successful, when there are maybe 2 players with more titles in the foreign scene (huk, stephano)
yep, they're a long time ago (ESPORT-time) , but so is most of foreign success
I wonder what Idra would be like if he had started WoL playing Terran. Just think, instead of Morrow, it could have been HIM doing the mass reaper vs zerg early game. I actually think it'd be really interesting to see how well Idra would have done if he had been Terran.
I do wish we saw the same passion he had back then. ; (
On April 30 2013 06:28 tuho12345 wrote: 7 out of 14 tourneys made him a foreigner's bonjwa ?
Winning 50% of tournaments is incredibly good consistency for a game like SC (BW or WoL).
On April 30 2013 06:29 Blargh wrote: I wonder what Idra would be like if he had started WoL playing Terran. Just think, instead of Morrow, it could have been HIM doing the mass reaper vs zerg early game. I actually think it'd be really interesting to see how well Idra would have done if he had been Terran.
I do wish we saw the same passion he had back then. ; (
On April 30 2013 06:29 Blargh wrote: I wonder what Idra would be like if he had started WoL playing Terran. Just think, instead of Morrow, it could have been HIM doing the mass reaper vs zerg early game. I actually think it'd be really interesting to see how well Idra would have done if he had been Terran.
I do wish we saw the same passion he had back then. ; (
On April 30 2013 06:28 tuho12345 wrote: 7 out of 14 tourneys made him a foreigner's bonjwa ?
Winning 50% of tournaments is incredibly good consistency for a game like SC (BW or WoL).
Idra is not very good at cheese, so no I don't think he could've pulled off the 5rax reaper lol
it wasn't even very cheesy, you expoed behind it :D
On April 30 2013 06:28 tuho12345 wrote: 7 out of 14 tourneys made him a foreigner's bonjwa ?
JWD did a good job of summarizing IdrA's results in non-Korean events in this blog. I think that his overall mapscore against non-Koreans should speak for his dominance alone.
"IdrA's record across these matches is 81-24 (80%)."
On April 30 2013 06:29 Blargh wrote: I wonder what Idra would be like if he had started WoL playing Terran. Just think, instead of Morrow, it could have been HIM doing the mass reaper vs zerg early game. I actually think it'd be really interesting to see how well Idra would have done if he had been Terran.
I do wish we saw the same passion he had back then. ; (
On April 30 2013 06:28 tuho12345 wrote: 7 out of 14 tourneys made him a foreigner's bonjwa ?
Winning 50% of tournaments is incredibly good consistency for a game like SC (BW or WoL).
Idra is not very good at cheese, so no I don't think he could've pulled off the 5rax reaper lol
it wasn't even very cheesy, you expoed behind it :D
He probably still wouldnt have done it. I think it was an interview with Artosis, but not 100% sure, but I remember someone saying IdrA started off sc2 as a protoss but he refused to 4gate so he had like a 0% win rate in PvP because everyone would just 4 gate him and he would die. I could see him refusing to 5 rax reaper
On April 30 2013 06:29 Blargh wrote: I wonder what Idra would be like if he had started WoL playing Terran. Just think, instead of Morrow, it could have been HIM doing the mass reaper vs zerg early game. I actually think it'd be really interesting to see how well Idra would have done if he had been Terran.
I do wish we saw the same passion he had back then. ; (
On April 30 2013 06:28 tuho12345 wrote: 7 out of 14 tourneys made him a foreigner's bonjwa ?
Winning 50% of tournaments is incredibly good consistency for a game like SC (BW or WoL).
Idra is not very good at cheese, so no I don't think he could've pulled off the 5rax reaper lol
it wasn't even very cheesy, you expoed behind it :D
Wait, so if I 5 gate and build a nexus behind it, its not cheese? One minute, I need to get back to the ladder.
On April 30 2013 06:28 tuho12345 wrote: 7 out of 14 tourneys made him a foreigner's bonjwa ?
JWD did a good job of summarizing IdrA's results in non-Korean events in this blog. I think that his overall mapscore against non-Koreans should speak for his dominance alone.
"IdrA's record across these matches is 81-24 (80%)."
Doing a quick count, I see that he won 23 series out of 25 series. That's pretty dominating. I can't see how you can argue with that even if you don't like him personally, tuho12345.
On April 30 2013 06:29 Blargh wrote: I wonder what Idra would be like if he had started WoL playing Terran. Just think, instead of Morrow, it could have been HIM doing the mass reaper vs zerg early game. I actually think it'd be really interesting to see how well Idra would have done if he had been Terran.
I do wish we saw the same passion he had back then. ; (
On April 30 2013 06:28 tuho12345 wrote: 7 out of 14 tourneys made him a foreigner's bonjwa ?
Winning 50% of tournaments is incredibly good consistency for a game like SC (BW or WoL).
Idra is not very good at cheese, so no I don't think he could've pulled off the 5rax reaper lol
it wasn't even very cheesy, you expoed behind it :D
Wait, so if I 5 gate and build a nexus behind it, its not cheese? One minute, I need to get back to the ladder.
there was no risk to it, since there was no point where you wouldnt do damage
if you do a 5gate there's a big chance it won't work ;P
Hopefully this will remind people of good memories of Idra, because the way he is being bullied at the moment, regardless of his own part in the situation, is pretty vile. He is a human being, goddammit.
On April 30 2013 06:37 m0ck wrote: Hopefully this will remind people of good memories of Idra, because the way he is being bullied at the moment, regardless of his own part in the situation, is pretty vile. He is a human being, goddammit.
On April 30 2013 06:28 tuho12345 wrote: 7 out of 14 tourneys made him a foreigner's bonjwa ?
JWD did a good job of summarizing IdrA's results in non-Korean events in this blog. I think that his overall mapscore against non-Koreans should speak for his dominance alone.
"IdrA's record across these matches is 81-24 (80%)."
There's no doubt that Idra was the strongest foreigner in the years leading up to SC2, but calling him a Bonjwa is probably too much. The fact he was unable to win a TSL despite being a favourite for both seasons really hurts any claim to 'bonjwa' status. There were also events like the showmatch against F91 which he lost 2-5 that were very public and detrimental to the image of an unbeatable foreigner. That said, it doesn't detract from the article nor should it detract from the fact that Idra was incredibly good at this game and is worthy of praise for his skill.
On April 30 2013 06:01 Jaaaaasper wrote: He wasn't the first non Korean in Korea to dedicate himself to the game. Why does everyone forget grrr? Grr won a freaking starleague, I think that earns him a bit more credit than the estro coach gave him.
Read the article maybe ?
Read my second sentence maybe? I didn't say that grr didn't get mentioned, I said he didn't get enough credit
Stop being uptight. This article isn't about grrr.
On April 30 2013 06:37 m0ck wrote: Hopefully this will remind people of good memories of Idra, because the way he is being bullied at the moment, regardless of his own part in the situation, is pretty vile. He is a human being, goddammit.
He is cited as a foreinger to be the greatest (in that period) in western amateur scene. His consistancy to achieve that came from his stubbornes to find his own way of viewing the game, the same stubbornes made him look like a fool on eastern scene. For every achievement of his you can always find a terrible blunder. Even to this day.
He will be known as the one who dominated amateur tournaments as a draftee from Estro/CJ, beat Yellow and make Tossgirl cry, however he will not be foreigner known to win Starleague, beat Savior, or Midas. Those were achievements of other.
The let-down element was a persistent element of his career, and continues onward, his view of the game has not changed despite falling so many times, to the very same mistakes. He has never opened his heart to the creativity, open-mindness and such and because of that i could never truly respect him, because of his incredibly narrow view.
However such tragic heroes are always the ones that give the most to the scene for the better or worse, he is the one of the most popular foreigners and nothing will change that (see his fanclub).
On April 30 2013 06:41 Malpractice.248 wrote: I do think idra deserves more respect, as a player. Even if he doesnt always shine as a person, hes a good player.
He is a good player and he isn´t. I say isn't because the potential is there but his overall attitude towards the game is so goddamn toxic. Balance whine constantly everytime he plays, whines that his opponent is bad etc. Look at pro football, or soccer to u americans. Paris Saint Germaine full of sick players have to focus like hell sometimes to beat some crap teams. It´s really hard playing vs someone knowing you are better, it makes you take risks etc. And he does this all the time, not knowing he´s better i suppose but thinking it.
The day he learns to handle himself for others but also for himself, is the day he will start winning shit. And then he will be respected. Can't live on old accomplishments alone. Currently he´s a mid tier pro that flames a lot.
Every-time somebody mentions Idra and KeSPA in the same sentence, I feel the need to bring this out Specifically Foreigners Suck #2 and Foreigners Still Suck
On April 30 2013 06:18 BoggieMan wrote: I really admire idras mechanicaly macro focused style, too bad he isen't doing so well in sc2 as he was in bw...
He's actually had more success I think. Won an mlg, ipl, iem, asus ROG and several other events.
Ya he has had more success in sc2, big tournies and last 8 finishes in the highest caliber event.
On April 30 2013 06:28 tuho12345 wrote: 7 out of 14 tourneys made him a foreigner's bonjwa ?
JWD did a good job of summarizing IdrA's results in non-Korean events in this blog. I think that his overall mapscore against non-Koreans should speak for his dominance alone.
"IdrA's record across these matches is 81-24 (80%)."
There's no doubt that Idra was the strongest foreigner in the years leading up to SC2, but calling him a Bonjwa is probably too much. The fact he was unable to win a TSL despite being a favourite for both seasons really hurts any claim to 'bonjwa' status. There were also events like the showmatch against F91 which he lost 2-5 that were very public and detrimental to the image of an unbeatable foreigner. That said, it doesn't detract from the article nor should it detract from the fact that Idra was incredibly good at this game and is worthy of praise for his skill.
On April 30 2013 06:03 5ukkub wrote: And Draco, NoNy, Ret etc.
IdrA stayed the longest, that's all...
The reason because Draco,NoNy and Ret etc didn't stay in Korea for long, was because they weren't able to put in the effort that was required and that Idra was able to bring in.
This is only partly true, at least that's what I've heard. Ret obviously had problems outside of the practice regimen; he wasn't treated very well and if I remember correctly there was no translator in the Estro-house when he was there. I also think that Nony had some personal issues (he left very suddenly), but don't quote me on that.
Idra is a hard worker, and he deserves praise for that, but I think you are selling both Ret and Nony short here.
Every-time somebody mentions Idra and KeSPA in the same sentence, I feel the need to bring this out Specifically Foreigners Suck #2 and Foreigners Still Suck
I am not trying to make this part of history disappear, if that's what you're saying. I do however feel like IdrA turned a lot of that image around throughout 2009, and showing him constantly taking games off of players like Trap, SangHo and even managing to beat someone like GoRush count for a lot, especially back then.
This is only partly true, at least that's what I've heard. Ret obviously had problems outside of the practice regimen; he wasn't treated very well and if I remember correctly there was no translator in the Estro-house when he was there. I also think that Nony had some personal issues (he left very suddenly), but don't quote me on that.
Idra is a hard worker, and he deserves praise for that, but I think you are selling both Ret and Nony short here.
Ret definitely got the short end of the stick during his stay at eSTRO, afaik he was accused of selling replays from his team mates and got kicked, basically. Nony left Korea to get married.
Now it's the long road back to a decent foreigner rofl. Now that zerg has become difficult to play in HotS it seems his attitude has worsened by a lot. We'll have to see how he does in WCS but he got quite a tough group so I don't expect to see much from him in a while.
taking games off BoxeR, Kingdom and iloveoov Defeated BoxeR during CKCG 2005. Defeated Bisu in IEF 2007. All-Killed the STX Team (Tossgirl, July and Bogus) in the Losers Bracket of STX Invitational 2010 before losing to Trap 2-3 in the finals.
The language barrier existed aswell :
During a Chinese interview after departing from SK Telecom T1, Lx said the inability to participate in intricate strategic discussions and mentoring due to language barriers was his greatest problem during his progaming life in Korea. Lx said his skilled improved drastically when he began training in the pro house and used to beat Fantasy and BeSt at a regular basis. However after a while he felt a stagnation of his progress and skill while Fantasy continued to improve due to mentoring. Lx mentioned that his skill would've progressed a lot further and would most likely stay in Korea if he had learned the Korean language.
In topics like that (discussing foreigner strenght after BW end) So far i never, ever saw anyone gave credit to players like LX or PJ for what they did. Any foreigner discussion is mostly swept with Idra chant and here and there Nony.
Really good article, learned some things about idra i didn't know. I knew he gained a hard work ethic out of it and you can see that with how much he plays.
Coupled with his overall dislike of the game, it seems as if he is never going to reach the same status he had in BW as it is near impossible to excel at something you don't like.
This quote from the article stood out to me because, idra could be the best foreigner, he learned the tools from his time with estro and CJ, he clearly has a good understanding of the game, and great mechanics. But his mindset...the way he approaches the game. But if you don't like it you aren't going to get the best results or have the best mindset. The author hit the nail on the head. Hope the author does another one on other big figures in the scene, like incontrol,white-ra, nony ect. ect.ect.
Does it upset anyone else how much IdrA's career has crashed and burned since the early seasons of SC2? He was one of the best SC2 players in the world, placing very highly in the GSL multiple season in a row. I think that when he decided to move back to the US for NASL and move into the EG Lair, he ruined his ability to be competitive with the Koreans. I'd argue that his placements in the GSL were far greater achievements than his tournament wins at IEM, MLG, and Assembly.
taking games off BoxeR, Kingdom and iloveoov Defeated BoxeR during CKCG 2005. Defeated Bisu in IEF 2007. All-Killed the STX Team (Tossgirl, July and Bogus) in the Losers Bracket of STX Invitational 2010 before losing to Trap 2-3 in the finals.
During a Chinese interview after departing from SK Telecom T1, Lx said the inability to participate in intricate strategic discussions and mentoring due to language barriers was his greatest problem during his progaming life in Korea. Lx said his skilled improved drastically when he began training in the pro house and used to beat Fantasy and BeSt at a regular basis. However after a while he felt a stagnation of his progress and skill while Fantasy continued to improve due to mentoring. Lx mentioned that his skill would've progressed a lot further and would most likely stay in Korea if he had learned the Korean language.
In topics like that (discussing foreigner strenght after BW end) So far i never, ever saw anyone gave credit to players like LX or PJ for what they did. Any foreigner discussion is mostly swept with Idra chant and here and there Nony.
Pretty sure I remember an interview with Artosis where someone mentionned that PJ was by far the best foreigner at PvT and that the PvZ and PvP of Lx were much better than PJ's... Who was that again :p
On April 30 2013 06:01 Jaaaaasper wrote: He wasn't the first non Korean in Korea to dedicate himself to the game. Why does everyone forget grrr? Grr won a freaking starleague, I think that earns him a bit more credit than the estro coach gave him.
Yeah they talked about it , make and informed post by reading first silly !
The difference between the foreign pro scene in BW and SC2 is massive. I would venture to say SC2 has more non-Koreans who attempt to play at a "professional" level.
Every-time somebody mentions Idra and KeSPA in the same sentence, I feel the need to bring this out Specifically Foreigners Suck #2 and Foreigners Still Suck
Every-time somebody mentions Idra and KeSPA in the same sentence, I feel the need to bring this out Specifically Foreigners Suck #2 and Foreigners Still Suck
Wow I've been lurking here for years (remember this show match really well) and I've never seen these threads haha. These are fantastic, especially "Foreigners Still Suck" ahhah
taking games off BoxeR, Kingdom and iloveoov Defeated BoxeR during CKCG 2005. Defeated Bisu in IEF 2007. All-Killed the STX Team (Tossgirl, July and Bogus) in the Losers Bracket of STX Invitational 2010 before losing to Trap 2-3 in the finals.
During a Chinese interview after departing from SK Telecom T1, Lx said the inability to participate in intricate strategic discussions and mentoring due to language barriers was his greatest problem during his progaming life in Korea. Lx said his skilled improved drastically when he began training in the pro house and used to beat Fantasy and BeSt at a regular basis. However after a while he felt a stagnation of his progress and skill while Fantasy continued to improve due to mentoring. Lx mentioned that his skill would've progressed a lot further and would most likely stay in Korea if he had learned the Korean language.
In topics like that (discussing foreigner strenght after BW end) So far i never, ever saw anyone gave credit to players like LX or PJ for what they did. Any foreigner discussion is mostly swept with Idra chant and here and there Nony.
i agree pj/lx were byfar the best non-koreans during the bw era- however chinese weren't typically included in the "foreigner" discussion due to the fact that their lifestyles were very similar to that of professional korean players. being a long time idra fan, he was absolutely incredible during his prime- however the one foreigner that was really remarkable towards the end imo was nony. there was a period of time where he seemed untouchable on any stage. i still remember his trip to korea competing in the tournament in efforts to legitimately attain a professional license and reaching further than any other foreigner. that in itself was a spectacle to remember
On April 30 2013 06:03 5ukkub wrote: And Draco, NoNy, Ret etc.
IdrA stayed the longest, that's all...
No it's exactly the opposite. The reason because Draco,NoNy and Ret etc didn't stay in Korea for long, was because they weren't able to put in the effort that was required and that Idra was able to bring in. They could not keep up to the incredibly hard training schedule in the pro houses and the unkown and thus for sure uncomfortable enviroment and this is why Idra is named here as the one that was dedicated most among those people. (Realize that this statement has nothing to do with the skill level of these people)
Nony said he had no problem with the practice, his reason for leaving was that he couldnt handle emotionally being away from his gf [now wife].
On April 30 2013 06:18 BoggieMan wrote: I really admire idras mechanicaly macro focused style, too bad he isen't doing so well in sc2 as he was in bw...
He's actually had more success I think. Won an mlg, ipl, iem, asus ROG and several other events.
yeah people are quick to say he hasn't been successful, when there are maybe 2 players with more titles in the foreign scene (huk, stephano)
yep, they're a long time ago (ESPORT-time) , but so is most of foreign success
On April 30 2013 06:03 5ukkub wrote: And Draco, NoNy, Ret etc.
IdrA stayed the longest, that's all...
No it's exactly the opposite. The reason because Draco,NoNy and Ret etc didn't stay in Korea for long, was because they weren't able to put in the effort that was required and that Idra was able to bring in. They could not keep up to the incredibly hard training schedule in the pro houses and the unkown and thus for sure uncomfortable enviroment and this is why Idra is named here as the one that was dedicated most among those people. (Realize that this statement has nothing to do with the skill level of these people)
Draco, NoNy, Ret etc came back because they had homes and families to come back to. They just felt lonely and unhappy. IdrA was rejected by his father... Maybe he had no place to go besides CJ team house. First year of SC2 he had some success playing in foreigner packed tournaments and after some time his passion/motivation vanished... We now have a ghost of a former player with dull and poor future of streaming career ahead... Not mentioning his narrowminded thought process and annoying BM that was/is and will be the mark of IdrA, the failed foreigner bonjwa.
The foreign bonjwa indeed. And now he's but a glorified Dragon :D, except more of his fans tune in to see him lose on stream, and not troll people in gold league.
I still hope IdrA comes back one day, but that seems a little far-fetched.
On April 30 2013 06:03 5ukkub wrote: And Draco, NoNy, Ret etc.
IdrA stayed the longest, that's all...
No it's exactly the opposite. The reason because Draco,NoNy and Ret etc didn't stay in Korea for long, was because they weren't able to put in the effort that was required and that Idra was able to bring in. They could not keep up to the incredibly hard training schedule in the pro houses and the unkown and thus for sure uncomfortable enviroment and this is why Idra is named here as the one that was dedicated most among those people. (Realize that this statement has nothing to do with the skill level of these people)
Draco, NoNy, Ret etc came back because they had homes and families to come back to. They just felt lonely and unhappy. IdrA was rejected by his father... Maybe he had no place to go besides CJ team house. First year of SC2 he had some success playing in foreigner packed tournaments and after some time his passion/motivation vanished... We now have a ghost of a former player with dull and poor future of streaming career ahead... Not mentioning his narrowminded thought process and annoying BM that was/is and will be the mark of IdrA, the failed foreigner bonjwa.
instead of learning how to marcro he should have learned a professional approach to the game, but he was never willing to do so, that's why foreigners with much less practice still managed to beat him (not to speak of koreans).
he is like the old flash that went 14cc no matter what. Flash realized that early pressure and marine micro is a much greater way of proving skill, instead of just building scv's. Idrea refuses to acknowledge that.
Idra has a low tolerance for BS and this can make him act like a total bastard, yet I really would like to see him do well again. Sometime I think he would benefit more from a good psychiatrist then he does grinding practice time.
I know it's near impossible but just image Idra winning WSC! haha
On April 30 2013 10:41 mrRoflpwn wrote: Idra was good. Terrible attitude these days. :/
I don't really think his attitude is a problem, and it hasn't changed since then. I mean like, how could we forget the famous "useful skill toi have" response to carriers. He speaks his mind and sometimes vents after a frustrating loss, pretty much the same.
Leaving games before they are lost. Refusing to change his play. Complaining about everyone else all the time rather than acknowledging what his own actual weaknesses are (he may say "I should have done this and this" but that's not the root of the problem).
He has a negative attitude towards his opponents and towards the game, how can that not be a problem? He used to be good because he had some skills and others weren't at the same level as him in those areas (e.g. macro). Everyone else has now caught up and surpassed him in the areas he was strong, and those people are also strong in other areas. Idra hasn't really developed in those other areas.
You can't blame only Idra, he's been on EG for years, living now in their team house, and they seem to have done nothing to help him overcome his weaknesses, and are happy to let him sit there and be known as the "bad boy". Soon enough he will just be known as "bad and a douche".
Every-time somebody mentions Idra and KeSPA in the same sentence, I feel the need to bring this out Specifically Foreigners Suck #2 and Foreigners Still Suck
Thanks for this, it amused me for a good half an hour, Rekrul really rips apart Artosis o.0
On April 30 2013 15:47 Lonyo wrote: His attitude is most definitely a problem.
Leaving games before they are lost. Refusing to change his play. Complaining about everyone else all the time rather than acknowledging what his own actual weaknesses are (he may say "I should have done this and this" but that's not the root of the problem).
He has a negative attitude towards his opponents and towards the game, how can that not be a problem? He used to be good because he had some skills and others weren't at the same level as him in those areas (e.g. macro). Everyone else has now caught up and surpassed him in the areas he was strong, and those people are also strong in other areas. Idra hasn't really developed in those other areas.
You can't blame only Idra, he's been on EG for years, living now in their team house, and they seem to have done nothing to help him overcome his weaknesses, and are happy to let him sit there and be known as the "bad boy". Soon enough he will just be known as "bad and a douche".
I think you can blame him watching his team mates stream of late without him in the house has highlighted what a negative impact he makes on the team as a whole to the extent of throwing game vs him to keep a happy and have a better playing environment.
as a friend said to me last week Idra ha just a personality these days if that's true then its very sad cause its a bad personality outside of being a good gamer everything about idra is pretty negative.
On April 30 2013 06:18 BoggieMan wrote: I really admire idras mechanicaly macro focused style, too bad he isen't doing so well in sc2 as he was in bw...
Are you serious? He is 5 times more successful in sc2 than he was in bw, the skill gap between korean pros and non-pros back then was insane. It's just uncomparable.
Idra has been hugely successful in SC2, it's just there are a lot more foreigners in the scene, which makes it less "extraordinary" than one white guy rising to the korean army.
While I respect what he has done in bridging the gap that exists between Koreans and the rest of the world for SC, to me attitude is everything and your skill at your chosen career doesn't give you the right to be a tosser.
Idra now is just the shadow of himself. Watching his stream more than 30 min is a fucking performance. Whining about balance constantly, insulting or disrespect almost all players he loses against, calling "awful" players like Byun, calling Demu "a piece of shit" and always leaving when they face off on the ladder, and the list goes on....
When demu is facing very good players like byun on ladder, he will loose like 4-1, but is happy to play against him, wtach all replay in order to understand why he loss, etc... Its for good for him and for viewers.
When idra is facing byun on ladder, he loses 5-0, insults him and all his prime teamates, whines about how it is impossible to beat terran, and stops streaming.
On May 01 2013 01:33 sage_francis wrote: lol i miss good old bw days...
Idra now is just the shadow of himself. Watching his stream more than 30 min is a fucking performance. Whining about balance constantly, insulting or disrespect almost all players he loses against, calling "awful" players like Byun, calling Demu "a piece of shit" and always leaving when they face off on the ladder, and the list goes on....
When demu is facing very good players like byun on ladder, he will loose like 4-1, but is happy to play against him, wtach all replay in order to understand why he loss, etc... Its for good for him and for viewers.
When idra is facing byun on ladder, he loses 5-0, insults him and all his prime teamates, whines about how it is impossible to beat terran, and stops streaming.
I think Its time for him to retire.
That's his image, and it gets him thousands of viewers and a huge fanbase, and shows he is emotionally invested in the game. I'd be more concerned if he showed no interest in losing.
On May 01 2013 01:33 sage_francis wrote: lol i miss good old bw days...
Idra now is just the shadow of himself. Watching his stream more than 30 min is a fucking performance. Whining about balance constantly, insulting or disrespect almost all players he loses against, calling "awful" players like Byun, calling Demu "a piece of shit" and always leaving when they face off on the ladder, and the list goes on....
When demu is facing very good players like byun on ladder, he will loose like 4-1, but is happy to play against him, wtach all replay in order to understand why he loss, etc... Its for good for him and for viewers.
When idra is facing byun on ladder, he loses 5-0, insults him and all his prime teamates, whines about how it is impossible to beat terran, and stops streaming.
I think Its time for him to retire.
That's his image, and it gets him thousands of viewers and a huge fanbase, and shows he is emotionally invested in the game. I'd be more concerned if he showed no interest in losing.
You can be "emotionally invested in the game" and still show respect to your opponents and viewers...
On May 01 2013 01:33 sage_francis wrote: lol i miss good old bw days...
Idra now is just the shadow of himself. Watching his stream more than 30 min is a fucking performance. Whining about balance constantly, insulting or disrespect almost all players he loses against, calling "awful" players like Byun, calling Demu "a piece of shit" and always leaving when they face off on the ladder, and the list goes on....
When demu is facing very good players like byun on ladder, he will loose like 4-1, but is happy to play against him, wtach all replay in order to understand why he loss, etc... Its for good for him and for viewers.
When idra is facing byun on ladder, he loses 5-0, insults him and all his prime teamates, whines about how it is impossible to beat terran, and stops streaming.
I think Its time for him to retire.
That's his image, and it gets him thousands of viewers and a huge fanbase, and shows he is emotionally invested in the game. I'd be more concerned if he showed no interest in losing.
I believe this "emotional investment" is what's holding him back from improving at the moment
On May 01 2013 01:33 sage_francis wrote: lol i miss good old bw days...
Idra now is just the shadow of himself. Watching his stream more than 30 min is a fucking performance. Whining about balance constantly, insulting or disrespect almost all players he loses against, calling "awful" players like Byun, calling Demu "a piece of shit" and always leaving when they face off on the ladder, and the list goes on....
When demu is facing very good players like byun on ladder, he will loose like 4-1, but is happy to play against him, wtach all replay in order to understand why he loss, etc... Its for good for him and for viewers.
When idra is facing byun on ladder, he loses 5-0, insults him and all his prime teamates, whines about how it is impossible to beat terran, and stops streaming.
I think Its time for him to retire.
That's his image, and it gets him thousands of viewers and a huge fanbase, and shows he is emotionally invested in the game. I'd be more concerned if he showed no interest in losing.
yeah, no thats his personality and the fact that he still gets so many viewers and worshipers speaks a lot about the community.
idra is a rager and has been a horrible horrible influence on the whole scene.
zero respect for EG for still keeping him on the roster, especially considering he hasnt had any results in probably two years.
I cant tell you how many times i have seen Idra quit games (including tourney games) right in the middle of a game incredibly prematurely... like even in supply in some cases... after maybe losing a small battle or something <idra leaves game> its like WTF... he could have won at least 35% of those games if he had stayed in and thats being conservative. I just dont understand how a pro gamer can have such impatience as to not be able to stay in games and see them through to the end. I mean theres a time to leave a game and theres a time to fight on, i mean, how many SC2 games have you seen where a player is "ahead" but ends up losing. It happens all the time. I just dont understand it lol.
On May 01 2013 01:33 sage_francis wrote: lol i miss good old bw days...
Idra now is just the shadow of himself. Watching his stream more than 30 min is a fucking performance. Whining about balance constantly, insulting or disrespect almost all players he loses against, calling "awful" players like Byun, calling Demu "a piece of shit" and always leaving when they face off on the ladder, and the list goes on....
When demu is facing very good players like byun on ladder, he will loose like 4-1, but is happy to play against him, wtach all replay in order to understand why he loss, etc... Its for good for him and for viewers.
When idra is facing byun on ladder, he loses 5-0, insults him and all his prime teamates, whines about how it is impossible to beat terran, and stops streaming.
I think Its time for him to retire.
That's his image, and it gets him thousands of viewers and a huge fanbase, and shows he is emotionally invested in the game. I'd be more concerned if he showed no interest in losing.
That's not showing an interest in losing. Dodging games vs a teammate so you won't take a loss is interest in losing? Or blaming game balance instead of his own mistakes is an interest in losing? Idra clearly has no passion for the game and if he was on another team that wasn't paying the salary EG is paying him, he'd be out.
On May 01 2013 01:33 sage_francis wrote: lol i miss good old bw days...
Idra now is just the shadow of himself. Watching his stream more than 30 min is a fucking performance. Whining about balance constantly, insulting or disrespect almost all players he loses against, calling "awful" players like Byun, calling Demu "a piece of shit" and always leaving when they face off on the ladder, and the list goes on....
When demu is facing very good players like byun on ladder, he will loose like 4-1, but is happy to play against him, wtach all replay in order to understand why he loss, etc... Its for good for him and for viewers.
When idra is facing byun on ladder, he loses 5-0, insults him and all his prime teamates, whines about how it is impossible to beat terran, and stops streaming.
I think Its time for him to retire.
That's his image, and it gets him thousands of viewers and a huge fanbase, and shows he is emotionally invested in the game. I'd be more concerned if he showed no interest in losing.
That's not showing an interest in losing. Dodging games vs a teammate so you won't take a loss is interest in losing? Or blaming game balance instead of his own mistakes is an interest in losing? Idra clearly has no passion for the game and if he was on another team that wasn't paying the salary EG is paying him, he'd be out.
He has said he enjoys the pro gamer life style. I think he'll continue to play as long as he is either popular or successful enough to fly around to tournaments. I guess he does make a lot of money from EG salary, appearances and streaming as well. And for his post pro gaming career, I think he said he still wanted to stay in the industry.
On May 01 2013 05:13 Lonyo wrote: He has less than half the viewers of Demuslim. He's not even close to the #1 guy in EG anymore in terms of viewers, let alone skill.
European audiences at the moment and IdrA's streaming without commentary (+terrible music). He still gets very good stream viewers, especially for how much he streams.
I heard a term used to describe really talented players who didn't live up to their potential: 'Loves to play the game, more than he loves to win.'
Obviously this isn't why all talented players underachieve; but I think it applies to Idra in a way. If you watch pro sports / competition often the win at all costs attitude leads to them using strategies / game plans that you just wouldn't see between a bunch of guys playing for fun. Of course what is 'playing the game' versus 'playing to win' is subjective; but I think that describes Idra's approach towards the game. In a way it would be admirable if not for the other side of Idra.
His disregard for opponents that play to win / appear weaker than him. It's why he got a reputation for not backing up his talk (look at all those quotes right before he gets crushed in important matches!). Even in the TSL 3 preview for Idra - Cruncher; Chill basically said Idra can't understand what a player like Cruncher is and that's why he'll lose. It was a little tongue in cheek, but I still think that describes Idra's blindspot pretty well.
Of course, Idra did get legitimately screwed by the early GSL map pool too (close positions, no neutral depot Metal / close positions back door rocks Shakuras / Jungle Basin in his Bo5 against Jinro). So I wonder what his reputation / career would look like if he had played on better maps (not saying he would have beat Jinro, but it would have been a better series for sure).
On May 01 2013 01:33 sage_francis wrote: lol i miss good old bw days...
Idra now is just the shadow of himself. Watching his stream more than 30 min is a fucking performance. Whining about balance constantly, insulting or disrespect almost all players he loses against, calling "awful" players like Byun, calling Demu "a piece of shit" and always leaving when they face off on the ladder, and the list goes on....
When demu is facing very good players like byun on ladder, he will loose like 4-1, but is happy to play against him, wtach all replay in order to understand why he loss, etc... Its for good for him and for viewers.
When idra is facing byun on ladder, he loses 5-0, insults him and all his prime teamates, whines about how it is impossible to beat terran, and stops streaming.
I think Its time for him to retire.
That's his image, and it gets him thousands of viewers and a huge fanbase, and shows he is emotionally invested in the game. I'd be more concerned if he showed no interest in losing.
That's not showing an interest in losing. Dodging games vs a teammate so you won't take a loss is interest in losing? Or blaming game balance instead of his own mistakes is an interest in losing? Idra clearly has no passion for the game and if he was on another team that wasn't paying the salary EG is paying him, he'd be out.
Stephano took all his stream customers away :p
I agree. Remember when idra had 10k+ tuning in? Now his other EG counterparts have more viewers than him. One can only watch a negative nancy for so long, his gimmick is not long term.
Idra didnt win all the important tournaments when he was with estro and later with CJ. He didnt win TSL 2, which was the biggest thing we had back then in the foreign scene basically.
The kid never got that pure macro doesn't win you games. You need micro,strategy and a good execution.
The attention IdrA gets just proves how terrible and picky this community is. Every other person would be laughed off and ignored till the rest of his life for a behaviour such as his. Yet somehow he gets a pass and is put on some kind of pedestal while being terrible at this game and towards everyone in the community.
Instead of supporting players who actually are mannered/good and have the right attitude to move forward, people decide to support this black hole who sucks the life out of everything. IdrA should definitely get a life instead of bitching 10 years straight, because he doesn't want to accept the fact that he is terrible at what he does. Also the people in this community should get smarter, because they fuck shit up by granting the wrong people attention, which hurts the whole image of the 'sport'.
On May 01 2013 05:46 OutOfMyMind_pro wrote: He sucked before just like he does now.
The kid never got that pure macro doesn't win you games. You need micro,strategy and a good execution.
The attention IdrA gets just proves how terrible and picky this community is. Every other person would be laughed off and ignored till the rest of his life for a behaviour such as his. Yet somehow he gets a pass and is put on some kind of pedestal while being terrible at this game and towards everyone in the community.
Instead of supporting players who actually are mannered/good and have the right attitude to move forward, people decide to support this black hole who sucks the life out of everything. IdrA should definitely get a life instead of bitching 10 years straight, because he doesn't want to accept the fact that he is terrible at what he does. Also the people in this community should get smarter, because they fuck shit up by granting the wrong people attention, which hurts the whole image of the 'sport'.
all your credibility went right down the toilet after the first sentence, bud. Not that the rest of your post does anything to help your cause.
On May 01 2013 05:46 OutOfMyMind_pro wrote: He sucked before just like he does now.
The kid never got that pure macro doesn't win you games. You need micro,strategy and a good execution.
The attention IdrA gets just proves how terrible and picky this community is. Every other person would be laughed off and ignored till the rest of his life for a behaviour such as his. Yet somehow he gets a pass and is put on some kind of pedestal while being terrible at this game and towards everyone in the community.
Instead of supporting players who actually are mannered/good and have the right attitude to move forward, people decide to support this black hole who sucks the life out of everything. IdrA should definitely get a life instead of bitching 10 years straight, because he doesn't want to accept the fact that he is terrible at what he does. Also the people in this community should get smarter, because they fuck shit up by granting the wrong people attention, which hurts the whole image of the 'sport'.
i also wonder why idra fans are idra fans.
i'm a boxer fan for the obvious reasons (determination, attitude, mannerism) and a lot of people look up to him from casuals to pros. idra is the total exact opposite of this image boxer and yet he has just as many fans. i wonder how thats possible because idra has the opposite attributes to boxer, things i dislike in people. so i wonder if idra fans are idra fans for his bm and jokes, and not as a player. and if as a player, why?
everyone varies i guess, i'm a type a guy that'd prefer 5 B-Teamers with good attitude rather than 5 of arrogant asshole A-Teamers (if i were to have a team). i'm sure many will disagree.
On May 01 2013 05:46 OutOfMyMind_pro wrote: He sucked before just like he does now.
The kid never got that pure macro doesn't win you games. You need micro,strategy and a good execution.
The attention IdrA gets just proves how terrible and picky this community is. Every other person would be laughed off and ignored till the rest of his life for a behaviour such as his. Yet somehow he gets a pass and is put on some kind of pedestal while being terrible at this game and towards everyone in the community.
Instead of supporting players who actually are mannered/good and have the right attitude to move forward, people decide to support this black hole who sucks the life out of everything. IdrA should definitely get a life instead of bitching 10 years straight, because he doesn't want to accept the fact that he is terrible at what he does. Also the people in this community should get smarter, because they fuck shit up by granting the wrong people attention, which hurts the whole image of the 'sport'.
Funny, "black hole who sucks the life out of everything" is a very apt description of yourself. It absolutely amazes me that someone like you can write a long-winded, hate driven diatribe and then have the audacity to blame other people for hurting the community.
On May 01 2013 05:46 OutOfMyMind_pro wrote: He sucked before just like he does now.
The kid never got that pure macro doesn't win you games. You need micro,strategy and a good execution.
The attention IdrA gets just proves how terrible and picky this community is. Every other person would be laughed off and ignored till the rest of his life for a behaviour such as his. Yet somehow he gets a pass and is put on some kind of pedestal while being terrible at this game and towards everyone in the community.
Instead of supporting players who actually are mannered/good and have the right attitude to move forward, people decide to support this black hole who sucks the life out of everything. IdrA should definitely get a life instead of bitching 10 years straight, because he doesn't want to accept the fact that he is terrible at what he does. Also the people in this community should get smarter, because they fuck shit up by granting the wrong people attention, which hurts the whole image of the 'sport'.
Funny, "black hole who sucks the life out of everything" is a very apt description of yourself. It absolutely amazes me that someone like you can write a long-winded, hate driven diatribe and then have the audacity to blame other people for hurting the community.
On April 30 2013 07:17 bgx wrote: In topics like that (discussing foreigner strenght after BW end) So far i never, ever saw anyone gave credit to players like LX or PJ for what they did. Any foreigner discussion is mostly swept with Idra chant and here and there Nony.
Just out of curiosity where would Sen have fit into this discussion? Day[9] always talked up Sen's BW awesomeness, but other than that, I usually didn't hear him much discussed in the context of foreign BW.
On April 30 2013 07:17 bgx wrote: In topics like that (discussing foreigner strenght after BW end) So far i never, ever saw anyone gave credit to players like LX or PJ for what they did. Any foreigner discussion is mostly swept with Idra chant and here and there Nony.
Just out of curiosity where would Sen have fit into this discussion? Day[9] always talked up Sen's BW awesomeness, but other than that, I usually didn't hear him much discussed in the context of foreign BW.
It's just because they are asians and are hard to reach (just guessing I didn't follow BW). They aren't rly considered as foreigners it seems.
i'm a boxer fan for the obvious reasons (determination, attitude, mannerism) and a lot of people look up to him from casuals to pros. idra is the total exact opposite of this image boxer and yet he has just as many fans. i wonder how thats possible because idra has the opposite attributes to boxer, things i dislike in people. so i wonder if idra fans are idra fans for his bm and jokes, and not as a player. and if as a player, why?
everyone varies i guess, i'm a type a guy that'd prefer 5 B-Teamers with good attitude rather than 5 of arrogant asshole A-Teamers (if i were to have a team). i'm sure many will disagree.
I love watching Idra's stream because 1. I am a Zerg player and 2. It is absolutely hilarious. Idk if you could call me a "fan" though.
A couple days ago he was matched vs coLqxc and he says in his super dry tone: "Well, looks like all the shitty annoying players logged on at the same time today."
I hope IdrA gets to be a top contender again. He has the mechanics and experience. Despite all the bad attitude and bad manners he really seems like a nice guy. I hope it'll work out for him this year.
Leaving the discussion about mannerism and mindset completely aside, one cannot deny the fact that Idra already did what many progamers will never be able to achieve. He went to Korea and was for a long (Starcraft-) time clearly the best foreigner. He also has been earning his money with progaming for quite some time now. Also, he still manages to take town some of the strongest players (see the 2:0s against RoRo and Stephano at WCS). But sometimes you cannot help but wonder how good he would be with a mindset towards the game like many of the korean players have...
On April 30 2013 07:17 bgx wrote: In topics like that (discussing foreigner strenght after BW end) So far i never, ever saw anyone gave credit to players like LX or PJ for what they did. Any foreigner discussion is mostly swept with Idra chant and here and there Nony.
Just out of curiosity where would Sen have fit into this discussion? Day[9] always talked up Sen's BW awesomeness, but other than that, I usually didn't hear him much discussed in the context of foreign BW.
Sen dominated most of the Taiwanese/Chinese scene when he was active, and was in that group of foreigners who were considered great, but not the best. He did well in the first TSL too, after he un-retired himself
I know I have no right to speak on such things, but I have a genuine question. (no I didn't read the article all the way through)
IdrA is notorious for his incredibly anti-social behavior and poor sportsmanship.
He is also notorious because, despite this, he's amazing at SC2.
Am I reading this correctly in that he put in 12 hours a day, every day, for how ever many months were required?
If so, can someone verify whether or not people like IdrA here really deserve any sort of following? What I mean by this is; how many people here on the TL forums could get into the "pro" scene if they were able to play Starcraft 2 for 12 hours a day?
If more and more of us were able to quit our actual jobs and skip our families for a few months, how many of us would be able to compete in the pro scene? Is it fair to say that [x] number of hours = [level] of skill? I would imagine after breaking through the brick wall/crossing the bridge/whatever idiom you can think of, it would just require practice at that point?
Again, I'm just looking for a professional response to this question, not so much as to start a debate about skill vs practice/ETC...
On April 30 2013 07:17 bgx wrote: In topics like that (discussing foreigner strenght after BW end) So far i never, ever saw anyone gave credit to players like LX or PJ for what they did. Any foreigner discussion is mostly swept with Idra chant and here and there Nony.
Just out of curiosity where would Sen have fit into this discussion? Day[9] always talked up Sen's BW awesomeness, but other than that, I usually didn't hear him much discussed in the context of foreign BW.
It's just because they are asians and are hard to reach (just guessing I didn't follow BW). They aren't rly considered as foreigners it seems.
It was pretty difficult to get news/info about Asian BW, outside of the Korean scene, back in the day. Especially in comparison to NA and EU.
i'm a boxer fan for the obvious reasons (determination, attitude, mannerism) and a lot of people look up to him from casuals to pros. idra is the total exact opposite of this image boxer and yet he has just as many fans. i wonder how thats possible because idra has the opposite attributes to boxer, things i dislike in people. so i wonder if idra fans are idra fans for his bm and jokes, and not as a player. and if as a player, why?
everyone varies i guess, i'm a type a guy that'd prefer 5 B-Teamers with good attitude rather than 5 of arrogant asshole A-Teamers (if i were to have a team). i'm sure many will disagree.
I love watching Idra's stream because 1. I am a Zerg player and 2. It is absolutely hilarious. Idk if you could call me a "fan" though.
A couple days ago he was matched vs coLqxc and he says in his super dry tone: "Well, looks like all the shitty annoying players logged on at the same time today."
i'm a boxer fan for the obvious reasons (determination, attitude, mannerism) and a lot of people look up to him from casuals to pros. idra is the total exact opposite of this image boxer and yet he has just as many fans. i wonder how thats possible because idra has the opposite attributes to boxer, things i dislike in people. so i wonder if idra fans are idra fans for his bm and jokes, and not as a player. and if as a player, why?
everyone varies i guess, i'm a type a guy that'd prefer 5 B-Teamers with good attitude rather than 5 of arrogant asshole A-Teamers (if i were to have a team). i'm sure many will disagree.
I love watching Idra's stream because 1. I am a Zerg player and 2. It is absolutely hilarious. Idk if you could call me a "fan" though.
A couple days ago he was matched vs coLqxc and he says in his super dry tone: "Well, looks like all the shitty annoying players logged on at the same time today."
I was literally laughing out loud.
Why? What's funny about that?
Well you've put him in a hard spot because it's kind of like explaining why one liners from Superbad or the Hangover are funny. The words themselves aren't funny, it's all in the delivery. Love him or hate him, IdrA has pretty good delivery on his insults.
Personally I watch his stream for the times when he commentates. Between the balance whines etc. he actually does a very good job explaining what's going on. It's definitely one of the more informative streams I've seen. That and I also like watching him for the times he does well. It's like cheering for the Raiders.
i'm a boxer fan for the obvious reasons (determination, attitude, mannerism) and a lot of people look up to him from casuals to pros. idra is the total exact opposite of this image boxer and yet he has just as many fans. i wonder how thats possible because idra has the opposite attributes to boxer, things i dislike in people. so i wonder if idra fans are idra fans for his bm and jokes, and not as a player. and if as a player, why?
everyone varies i guess, i'm a type a guy that'd prefer 5 B-Teamers with good attitude rather than 5 of arrogant asshole A-Teamers (if i were to have a team). i'm sure many will disagree.
I love watching Idra's stream because 1. I am a Zerg player and 2. It is absolutely hilarious. Idk if you could call me a "fan" though.
A couple days ago he was matched vs coLqxc and he says in his super dry tone: "Well, looks like all the shitty annoying players logged on at the same time today."
I was literally laughing out loud.
I'm trying to figure out if you are going for the ironic sarcasm with this post.. but yea, to me. IdrA saying something like that is the epitome of irony and pitiful behavior
On May 01 2013 05:46 OutOfMyMind_pro wrote: He sucked before just like he does now.
The kid never got that pure macro doesn't win you games. You need micro,strategy and a good execution.
The attention IdrA gets just proves how terrible and picky this community is. Every other person would be laughed off and ignored till the rest of his life for a behaviour such as his. Yet somehow he gets a pass and is put on some kind of pedestal while being terrible at this game and towards everyone in the community.
Instead of supporting players who actually are mannered/good and have the right attitude to move forward, people decide to support this black hole who sucks the life out of everything. IdrA should definitely get a life instead of bitching 10 years straight, because he doesn't want to accept the fact that he is terrible at what he does. Also the people in this community should get smarter, because they fuck shit up by granting the wrong people attention, which hurts the whole image of the 'sport'.
all your credibility went right down the toilet after the first sentence, bud. Not that the rest of your post does anything to help your cause.
i dont know if are familiar with foreign broodwar around 2009, but to say Idra was a foreign bonjwa is probably as wrong as saying he was utter crap. Its very much the point that Idra tried to win by pure macro game, didnt apply a lot of gamesense. He also quitted unnecessary like he still does today.
On April 30 2013 07:17 bgx wrote: In topics like that (discussing foreigner strenght after BW end) So far i never, ever saw anyone gave credit to players like LX or PJ for what they did. Any foreigner discussion is mostly swept with Idra chant and here and there Nony.
i agree and want to add without claiming completion: Mondragon, Infernal BratOk, Android, Strelok, White-RA, F91, mistrezz, Draco.. yeah and a lot more i dont recall now^^
But from those gamers none stands back to Idra to me. Broodwar really had no really dominant foreign player for a long time that would justify any bonjwa term.
On May 01 2013 05:25 Wuster wrote: I heard a term used to describe really talented players who didn't live up to their potential: 'Loves to play the game, more than he loves to win.'
Obviously this isn't why all talented players underachieve; but I think it applies to Idra in a way. If you watch pro sports / competition often the win at all costs attitude leads to them using strategies / game plans that you just wouldn't see between a bunch of guys playing for fun. Of course what is 'playing the game' versus 'playing to win' is subjective; but I think that describes Idra's approach towards the game. In a way it would be admirable if not for the other side of Idra.
His disregard for opponents that play to win / appear weaker than him. It's why he got a reputation for not backing up his talk (look at all those quotes right before he gets crushed in important matches!). Even in the TSL 3 preview for Idra - Cruncher; Chill basically said Idra can't understand what a player like Cruncher is and that's why he'll lose. It was a little tongue in cheek, but I still think that describes Idra's blindspot pretty well.
Of course, Idra did get legitimately screwed by the early GSL map pool too (close positions, no neutral depot Metal / close positions back door rocks Shakuras / Jungle Basin in his Bo5 against Jinro). So I wonder what his reputation / career would look like if he had played on better maps (not saying he would have beat Jinro, but it would have been a better series for sure).
Idra voluntarily left Korea, I think after at least some of those maps were gone.
I still watch idra play from time to time because a part of me hopes that he will perform as well as he used to in the early days of sc2, when he was the favourite to win vs. foreigners and a real threat against any korean he went up against. Unfortunately those thoughts are not grounded in reality.
I love his stream it's where I actually learnt to play the game and learn the basics of Zerg , spreading creep , upgrades compositions , drone drone drone e.t.c
I think IdrA could be a lot better if he actually learnt to fking engage at the right time/position , I'm no pro but fk me some of the fights he takes are just game ending there and then .... His macro was second to none (when I 1st watched his stream about a year ago) , now he seems to have 1k mins just past lair often and any harass and he doesn't tech up behind and ends up over producing and stuff , maybe it happened before and I just didn't notice it coz I didn't know the game ......
I would love to see him win something , but can't see it happening , ever.....
On May 01 2013 05:25 Wuster wrote: I heard a term used to describe really talented players who didn't live up to their potential: 'Loves to play the game, more than he loves to win.'
Obviously this isn't why all talented players underachieve; but I think it applies to Idra in a way. If you watch pro sports / competition often the win at all costs attitude leads to them using strategies / game plans that you just wouldn't see between a bunch of guys playing for fun. Of course what is 'playing the game' versus 'playing to win' is subjective; but I think that describes Idra's approach towards the game. In a way it would be admirable if not for the other side of Idra.
His disregard for opponents that play to win / appear weaker than him. It's why he got a reputation for not backing up his talk (look at all those quotes right before he gets crushed in important matches!). Even in the TSL 3 preview for Idra - Cruncher; Chill basically said Idra can't understand what a player like Cruncher is and that's why he'll lose. It was a little tongue in cheek, but I still think that describes Idra's blindspot pretty well.
Of course, Idra did get legitimately screwed by the early GSL map pool too (close positions, no neutral depot Metal / close positions back door rocks Shakuras / Jungle Basin in his Bo5 against Jinro). So I wonder what his reputation / career would look like if he had played on better maps (not saying he would have beat Jinro, but it would have been a better series for sure).
I think its the opposite, he forgot to love the game and is trying too hard. If I was his coach I would give him the book " The Inner Game Of Tennis" from T.Gallwey, its a psychological approach to competitive sports of all kinds.
I disagree with people who question IdrAs "will to win". In my opinion IdrA wants to win every game he plays, which is why he avoids and despises any strategy which turns the game into a roll of the dice. As an extreme example, some people can game ladder tendencies and win 60+% of games with cheesey strats and on the surface look pretty good, but to do so basically also resigns yourself to losing 40% of your games when your opponent isn't blind countered by your play style. In reality people who play like this aren't "doing what it takes to win" they're "doing what it takes to win a statistical majority of their games." In my opinion Idra is the one trying to win every game, and while he can't do that because he's not Flash he at least is striving for it.
On May 01 2013 10:45 fash_ric wrote: Why? What's funny about that?
His delivery is just so dry. Every time he says "this guy is just bad/this guy is terrible/this guy is horrible/yeah actually this guys just bad" I get a kick, never gets old :D Obviously he's almost always wrong, but the fact that he thinks he is infallible is funny. And when he does well and commentates I learn something, so it's a win/win for me.
On May 01 2013 05:25 Wuster wrote: I heard a term used to describe really talented players who didn't live up to their potential: 'Loves to play the game, more than he loves to win.'
Obviously this isn't why all talented players underachieve; but I think it applies to Idra in a way. If you watch pro sports / competition often the win at all costs attitude leads to them using strategies / game plans that you just wouldn't see between a bunch of guys playing for fun. Of course what is 'playing the game' versus 'playing to win' is subjective; but I think that describes Idra's approach towards the game. In a way it would be admirable if not for the other side of Idra.
His disregard for opponents that play to win / appear weaker than him. It's why he got a reputation for not backing up his talk (look at all those quotes right before he gets crushed in important matches!). Even in the TSL 3 preview for Idra - Cruncher; Chill basically said Idra can't understand what a player like Cruncher is and that's why he'll lose. It was a little tongue in cheek, but I still think that describes Idra's blindspot pretty well.
Of course, Idra did get legitimately screwed by the early GSL map pool too (close positions, no neutral depot Metal / close positions back door rocks Shakuras / Jungle Basin in his Bo5 against Jinro). So I wonder what his reputation / career would look like if he had played on better maps (not saying he would have beat Jinro, but it would have been a better series for sure).
Idra voluntarily left Korea, I think after at least some of those maps were gone.
Actually, the Bo5 with Jinro was the very last series he played in Korea.
Also, I forgot to mention what if Jinro's booth was properly soundproofed in that series (he probably would have won anyways since map 5 was Lost Temple).
On May 01 2013 20:47 BillClinton wrote: I think its the opposite, he forgot to love the game and is trying too hard. If I was his coach I would give him the book " The Inner Game Of Tennis" from T.Gallwey, its a psychological approach to competitive sports of all kinds.
I agree; it probably applies more to what got him into BW and how he tried to apply it in SC2 (which in the early days was very, very far from a macro oriented game). It's an interesting point you bring up though; since it looked like Idra was going to make a comback when he won IEM Guangzhou and EG was talking about how they were emphasizing sports psychology inside the team house.
On May 01 2013 10:45 fash_ric wrote: Why? What's funny about that?
His delivery is just so dry. Every time he says "this guy is just bad/this guy is terrible/this guy is horrible/yeah actually this guys just bad" I get a kick, never gets old :D Obviously he's almost always wrong, but the fact that he thinks he is infallible is funny. And when he does well and commentates I learn something, so it's a win/win for me.
Question for you:
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I respect his gameplay and in game knowledge, but really his commentary is just horrible. It's just the monosyllabic rambling of a stereotypical antisocial gamer. I really do not find this appealing and fail to understand how others find this appealing also as mostly in life people try to avoid/not bother with such characters.
On May 01 2013 10:45 fash_ric wrote: Why? What's funny about that?
His delivery is just so dry. Every time he says "this guy is just bad/this guy is terrible/this guy is horrible/yeah actually this guys just bad" I get a kick, never gets old :D Obviously he's almost always wrong, but the fact that he thinks he is infallible is funny. And when he does well and commentates I learn something, so it's a win/win for me.
Question for you:
[image blocked]
I respect his gameplay and in game knowledge, but really his commentary is just horrible. It's just the monosyllabic rambling of a stereotypical antisocial gamer. I really do not find this appealing and fail to understand how others find this appealing also as mostly in life people try to avoid/not bother with such characters.
Uh when he commentates and isn't angry but actually commentating it's really well because he knows what he's talking about. When he just commentates but is angry or something then yeah I can kinda see what you are saying but when he actually commentates it's really good.
When a player is commentating their play, they aren't trying to be casters, they aren't trying to be entertaining they are just providing knowledge which is what idra does. He's not looking to be like cats/dragon/etc who sing and other stuff to entertain the audience in that way, he gives information.
I don't think calling IdrA the foreigner bonjwa isn't too far of a thought if he had an 80% map winrate against non-koreans and won 23 out of 25 series. Artosis stated it himself. Of course you can say he didn't TSL2 but sourcing liquidpedia "bonjwa" isn't a measure of accomplishments. Savior was a bonjwa but jaedong wasn't. Yet jaedong won way more titles than savior
I also agree that IdrA does not stream in an entertaining way. But that isn't bad at all. I actually appreciate the information he provides and the "no bullshit" kind of style. Although I really dislike it when he rages and keeps quitting games over and over. I wish he could stop looking at cheese as something bad/wrong and more of a typical strategy.
If I would rank players on how much respect I have for them. I would probably rank IdrA #1. Flash #2. IdrA is a really intelligent person. I doubt many people disagree with me on that. Funny thing is that a lot of intelligent people tend to have anger management problems, or just have short fuses.
On May 06 2013 02:23 llIH wrote: I also agree that IdrA does not stream in an entertaining way. But that isn't bad at all. I actually appreciate the information he provides and the "no bullshit" kind of style. Although I really dislike it when he rages and keeps quitting games over and over. I wish he could stop looking at cheese as something bad/wrong and more of a typical strategy.
If I would rank players on how much respect I have for them. I would probably rank IdrA #1. Flash #2. IdrA is a really intelligent person. I doubt many people disagree with me on that. Funny thing is that a lot of intelligent people tend to have anger management problems, or just have short fuses.
I think a lot of people have short fuses, regardless of intelligence.
On May 06 2013 02:23 llIH wrote: I also agree that IdrA does not stream in an entertaining way. But that isn't bad at all. I actually appreciate the information he provides and the "no bullshit" kind of style. Although I really dislike it when he rages and keeps quitting games over and over. I wish he could stop looking at cheese as something bad/wrong and more of a typical strategy.
If I would rank players on how much respect I have for them. I would probably rank IdrA #1. Flash #2. IdrA is a really intelligent person. I doubt many people disagree with me on that. Funny thing is that a lot of intelligent people tend to have anger management problems, or just have short fuses.
I think a lot of people have short fuses, regardless of intelligence.
Its usually the internet that makes people this way, most of the people raging on the web and calling people fucktards left and right never does this in real life. The Internet bring out the worst in many
On May 01 2013 05:25 Wuster wrote: I heard a term used to describe really talented players who didn't live up to their potential: 'Loves to play the game, more than he loves to win.'
Obviously this isn't why all talented players underachieve; but I think it applies to Idra in a way. If you watch pro sports / competition often the win at all costs attitude leads to them using strategies / game plans that you just wouldn't see between a bunch of guys playing for fun. Of course what is 'playing the game' versus 'playing to win' is subjective; but I think that describes Idra's approach towards the game. In a way it would be admirable if not for the other side of Idra.
His disregard for opponents that play to win / appear weaker than him. It's why he got a reputation for not backing up his talk (look at all those quotes right before he gets crushed in important matches!). Even in the TSL 3 preview for Idra - Cruncher; Chill basically said Idra can't understand what a player like Cruncher is and that's why he'll lose. It was a little tongue in cheek, but I still think that describes Idra's blindspot pretty well.
I can't agree with Idra playing because he loves the game at all. He plays to win, its extremely evident that he cannot handle losing well as he constantly cusses people on the ladder when he loses. His competitiveness is also the cause of the apparent fallout between him and Demuslim. He is extremely competitive and Starcraft is just an outlet for that.
His problem is that he has these weird concepts of how winning should be achieved in the game, he has had them since the BW days and seems to be unable to let them go. These ideals of "proper Starcraft" is obviously ultimately the thing that holds him back as a player. That and the inefficient practice that comes from needing to win every game and getting angry instead of analyzing his losses. Does Idra have any practice partners left?
I made the comparison once, I think it's appropriate here as well:
IdrA is like the Willy Loman of Starcraft.
Not because both are bald, but because after having had success in the past, both are now delusional about their ability, constantly badmouthing better men, completely lacking introspection, forever blaming outside influences for their own failure.
No matter which play you watch, you do so with a sense of pity and while you hope things get better, in the back of your mind you know you're observing a lost cause.
The only difference is that Willy Loman has a wife.
On May 01 2013 20:52 graNite wrote: my favourite idra quote is "he is frech-canadian so hes going to fast expand"
Actually it goes like this ====
"He's french-canadian so he's gonna fast-expand into a stupid zealot timing into something else gay." (This was vs the Real God of Protoss TT1, yeah I really like him dunno why T_T)
Also yesterday Idra played vs AlexCmoi on stream and said ====
"He's a french-Canadian terran, which explains why he is such an obnoxious douchebag." (Alex then went on to win the game because TERRAN into RQ by Idra.)
Early on in WoL, he seemed reasonable enough with his balance gripes. It was such bullshit that Protoss could tech up to a death ball, and there was almost nothing a Zerg could do. Idra participated in a couple of episodes of "Imbalanced" that he filmed with Artosis and raised some valid points.
But it's got to the stage where he's kind of a laughing stock now. Zerg was the dominant race for the final year of WoL, but Idra failed to profit from it. There were about 10 foreigner Zergs ahead of him or on his level. And now when the boot is on the other foot, he demonstrates the most abysmal BM to people like Demuslim, who are taking advantage of their own balance peak in ways that Idra never did.
How did Zerg go from weak to overpowered in WoL? Some of it was through patches...but most of it was through innovation in the meta-game. Innovation that Idra's attitude prevented him from spearheading, or indeed even staying abreast of. He was still making hydras until the end of WoL. He never seemed to master the art of roach pressure or understand some of the basic PvZ timings.
You'd expect that somebody with such a track record would tread guardedly or not at all before opining on the meta-game in HotS. But the leopard hasn't changed his spots, and he's actually grown some more. And his limitations are being proven again as better and more innovative Zergs figure out how to solve problems that he only moans about.
Compare his stream with those of Demuslim and Naniwa -- humble guys, who learn from their mistakes -- and it's no deep mystery why they're much better players.
On May 06 2013 04:42 Morlock wrote: How did Zerg go from weak to overpowered in WoL? Some of it was through patches...but most of it was through innovation in the meta-game.
A lot of it was through patches and a lot of it was through maps.
When Zerg was considered underpowered, they had 3 range roaches, 8 seconds low damage fungals, 3 range queens, warpgate was longer, voidrays were stronger, reaper speed was easier to get, barracks build times were lower, zealot build times were lower, stim research was faster etc, etc.
And the favorite Zerg map was XelNaga Caverns, which was considered horribly Terran and Toss favored as soon as better maps came around.
Granted, it took some time from mid 2011 to early 2012 until Infestor/Broodlord play was really popular, so these meta changes you're talking about did happen, but they took Zerg from being considered balanced to being considered too strong.
Without Balance and especially without Map changes Zerg would've been considered weak through the entirety of WoL, regardless of meta changes.
On May 06 2013 05:11 Lowell wrote: Without Balance and especially without Map changes Zerg would've been considered weak through the entirety of WoL, regardless of meta changes.
Sorry, I don't agree. You don't mention things like roaches originally cost only 1 supply...so Zerg had to be toned down as well as the other races. And Fruitdealer won an early tournament and NesTea was dominating all of them.
Idra attributed their success in tournaments to cheesy series play, timing attacks, etc. That was a respectable argument at the time, but he turned out to be a hypocrite. Protoss players were complaining about being forced to resort to "series play" for a whole year and Idra wasn't prepared to conclude that Protoss was weak.
And this is happening again as Life, Leenock and others Zergs perform well tournaments at the very highest level, and Idra continues to explain their wins away by attributing them to "series play" or by pretending that the Zergs are "superhumans" whereas all the Terrans and Protoss are mere mortals.
In hindsight we can see that Idra was a hypocrite whose bad attitude prevented him from finding solutions to problems that other players were constantly able to surmount. And he still hasn't learned his lesson.
On May 06 2013 05:11 Lowell wrote: Without Balance and especially without Map changes Zerg would've been considered weak through the entirety of WoL, regardless of meta changes.
Sorry, I don't agree. You don't mention things like roaches originally cost only 1 supply...so Zerg had to be toned down as well as the other races. And Fruitdealer won an early tournament and NesTea was dominating all of them.
The only thing you mention is the Roaches cost 1 supply thing? That was beta. And it was considered OP as fuck (even Idra said so) and it got removed pre release.
Yes fruitdealer and Nestea won some of the early Tournaments, but they were exceptions. Most tournaments were won by Terran and Protoss, the TvZ and PvZ winrates were favored against Zerg and the largest portion of Code S players were Terrans which led to the Expression GomTvT. Zerg wasn't considered unwinable but it was considered weak, pretty much the opposite of the end of WoL, were it was considered beatable, but way too strong.
Edit: I just looked through all the balance changes from 2010 and 2011, the only significant Nerfs Zerg ever got were Ultralisk nerf (-5 dmg vs armored and the building attack bugfix) and the Neural Parasite change (-2 range). They got a shitton of buffs and the nerfs for Toss and Terran are too long to list. The largest portion of the Zerg dominance in mid 2012 and 2013 were balance and map changes. It wouldn't have been remotely possible in Vanilla WoL.
On May 06 2013 05:58 Lowell wrote: Yes fruitdealer and Nestea won some of the early Tournaments, but they were exceptions. Most tournaments were won by Terran and Protoss, the TvZ and PvZ winrates were favored against Zerg and the largest portion of Code S players were Terrans which led to the Expression GomTvT. Zerg wasn't considered unwinable but it was considered weak, pretty much the opposite of the end of WoL, were it was considered beatable, but way too strong.
Zerg's win rate has always been ahead of Protoss's win rate, and for roughly half of WoL it was ahead of Terran's as well.
That one is international. If you want GSL, here's a thread from late 2011 -- before Zerg started to dominate.
You can see Zerg's win rate was only slightly below Terran's, and way ahead of Protoss's, even in early WoL.
Zerg has won 8 GSLs; Terran has won 7 and Protoss 3.
And Idra is nowhere near the level of a GSL-winner and always had room to improve and become #1 foreigner at any period in the game.
I'm afraid that Idra doesn't have, and has never had, the proverbial leg to stand on. Zerg has never been the underpowered race. Repeat: ZERG HAS NEVER BEEN THE UNDERPOWERED RACE. It's simply a fantasy that Idra has spun to save his ego and maintain the delusion that he's superior to the "mere mortals" of Terran and Protoss.
On May 06 2013 05:58 Lowell wrote: Yes fruitdealer and Nestea won some of the early Tournaments, but they were exceptions. Most tournaments were won by Terran and Protoss, the TvZ and PvZ winrates were favored against Zerg and the largest portion of Code S players were Terrans which led to the Expression GomTvT. Zerg wasn't considered unwinable but it was considered weak, pretty much the opposite of the end of WoL, were it was considered beatable, but way too strong.
Zerg's win rate has always been ahead of Protoss's win rate, and for roughly half of WoL it was ahead of Terran's as well.
see above. You have a weird definition of always.
You can see Zerg's win rate was only slightly below Terran's even in early WoL.
Late 2011 isn't early in wol. It's the right in the middle and as I said Zerg weren't considered weak anymore.
Zerg has won 8 GSLs; Terran has won 7 and Protoss 3.
And by the end of 2011 23 Terrans, 8 Tosses and 9 Zergs had reached the Ro4 in the GSL. Which race won tournaments is a really bad indicator of balance, as only 1 really good player such as Nestea can skew the statistics by a lot.
And Idra is nowhere near the level of a GSL-winner and always had room to improve and become #1 foreigner at any period in the game.
Absolutely no question. Idra will always whine about balance no matter what, I'm just saying you're wrong when you say the Zerg journey from underpowered- to overpowered-consensus was even mostly a metagame development.
ZERG HAS NEVER BEEN THE UNDERPOWERED RACE.
BOLD AND CAPS GIVES STATEMENTS MORE MERIT, RIGHT?? Zerg was underpowered in the beginning of WoL, especially on the maps that were played back then. No amount of metagame development would've changed that. Once those changes occured, the last of which was the queen change, there was some development outside the actual game that ended in the Zerg dominance that was the end of WoL
It's simply a fantasy that Idra has spun to save his ego and maintain the delusion that he's superior to the "mere mortals" of Terran and Protoss.
Yes, Idras whining was without basis for most of WoL, but that's not what I'm discussing.
On May 06 2013 06:36 Lowell wrote: That is late 2011. The most significant balance changes already happened. And the maps were way better. Zerg wasn't considered weak anymore.Here's a graph that includes the time before that.
Fair enough. I did not realize the beginning of that graph was late 2011. Maybe there was a slight balance problem back then.
But the fact is that this period you're whining about, when Zerg was ~10% behind Terran in win rate, Protoss had to endure repeatedly throughout WoL.
And I don't buy your theory about maps causing the tide to shift. It seems unsupported and eccentric, to say the least (with the exception of Steppes of War and Scrap Station). Zerg isn't to be trifled with even on short rush-distance maps like Ohana. Most Zergs did not get the point about the insane cost effectiveness of roaches until they saw Stephano abuse it. I've seen an early WoL Xel'Naga Caverns game with Idra, ZvP, when he gave up after the Protoss took a third and refused to tech up to brood lords "because stalkers can blink underneath them". And that was typical of Idra back then. This speaks to a player who doesn't know what he's doing; not a player who can't win because the maps are biased against him.
On May 06 2013 06:58 Morlock wrote: And I don't buy your theory about maps causing the tide to shift. It seems unsupported and eccentric, to say the least (with the exception of Steppes of War and Scrap Station). Zerg isn't to be trifled with even on short rush-distance maps like Ohana. Most Zergs did not get the point about the insane cost effectiveness of roaches until they saw Stephano abuse it. I've seen an early WoL Xel'Naga Caverns game with Idra, ZvP, when he gave up after the Protoss took a third and refused to tech up to brood lords "because stalkers can blink underneath them". And that was typical of Idra back then. This speaks to a player who doesn't know what he's doing; not a player who can't win because the maps are biased against him.
Ohana is only short rush distance in comparison to the other maps in the same pool. Compared to the maps at the start of SC2 (Steppes of War, Blistering Sands, Delta Quadrant, etc) Ohana would be considered long rush distance.
On May 06 2013 06:36 Lowell wrote: That is late 2011. The most significant balance changes already happened. And the maps were way better. Zerg wasn't considered weak anymore.Here's a graph that includes the time before that.
Fair enough. I did not realize the beginning of that graph was late 2011. Maybe there was a slight balance problem back then.
But the fact is that this period you're whining about, when Zerg was ~10% behind Terran in win rate, Protoss had to endure repeatedly throughout WoL.
And I don't buy your theory about maps causing the tide to shift. It seems unsupported and eccentric, to say the least (with the exception of Steppes of War and Scrap Station). Zerg isn't to be trifled with even on short rush-distance maps like Ohana. Most Zergs did not get the point about the insane cost effectiveness of roaches until they saw Stephano abuse it. I've seen an early WoL Xel'Naga Caverns game with Idra, ZvP, when he gave up after the Protoss took a third and refused to tech up to brood lords "because stalkers can blink underneath them". And that was typical of Idra back then. This speaks to a player who doesn't know what he's doing; not a player who can't win because the maps are biased against him.
Roaches do not have 'insane cost effectiveness'. Stephanos 12 minute max push would've worked just as well with marauders or stalkers, it's the fact that he knew how to take a 4:20 third safely that made his build so good. And at the highest level there was nothing wrong with that build balance wise.
The fact that you note Scrap Station as one of 2 bad map for Zerg is pretty funny, it was considered one of the best Zerg maps in 2010, as terrible for Zerg as it was. The only 'good' Zerg maps at that time were Metalopolis cross positions and (a little later) Taldarim Altar.
Here's a list of maps that were horrible for Zerg in the GSL 1 - GSL 3 map pool:
Blistering Sands (backdoor in main, small rush distance, impossible to take 3rd)
Desert Oasis (was a terrible map altogether, hard to take 3rd and tiny main distance by air, most of the base could be sieged from lowground)
Steppes of War (tiny rush distance, tiny map)
Scrap Station (Hard to take 3rd, though mutas were pretty powerful so it was one of the better for z)
Delta Quadrant (hard to take natural, ledge over the third, chokes)
Lost temple (close spawns means you lose, ledge drop at natural means you lose)
Metalopolis short spawn means you lose
XNC (Tanks super strong, easy gold for terran, hard 3rd and 4th for Zerg)
Jungle Basin (Terran can take middle base as 4th and deny every base for zerg)
Shakuras Plataeu (close positions means you lose, cross positions are hard because tanks in the middle)
Thats every map in the first 3 GSLs, except 2/3 positions of Metalopolis. Remember that you could still block the natural ramp on these maps.
And Idra, well he was always a balance whiner and he will always be, he always blamed everybody for his losses, but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. And my thesis is not eccentric. Ohana is way better for Zerg than any of the maps played in 2010/early 2011.
Honestly when have you started playing? I played Terran in 2010 and Toss in 2011 and among everyone it was basically accepted that Zerg was too weak on those early maps and before the infestor and roach change
On May 06 2013 03:10 kafkaesque wrote: I made the comparison once, I think it's appropriate here as well:
IdrA is like the Willy Loman of Starcraft.
Not because both are bald, but because after having had success in the past, both are now delusional about their ability, constantly badmouthing better men, completely lacking introspection, forever blaming outside influences for their own failure.
No matter which play you watch, you do so with a sense of pity and while you hope things get better, in the back of your mind you know you're observing a lost cause.
The only difference is that Willy Loman has a wife.
idrA has a very attractive (or had I don't know if they broke up) girlfriend. idrA at one point was an absolute monster, so good that people didn't want to let him into foreign tournaments, of course he lost to NoNy in the TSL and I'm pretty sure a lot of people remembe Draco (partially because the guy quit and came back so much) more than idrA when it comes to ability. SC2 has not been kind to idrA, between him complaining the game takes "no skill" or that the game is "worse than BW" or that it is "luck based" or that "insert complaint explaining why there is a conspiracy that only prevents him from winning here." There were times that he did extraordinarily well, but those were a while ago, back when the level of play in sc2 at least seemed much lower. Honestly a lot of the time I think back to ClouD's goodbye from progaming blog and see a lot of similarities between the two of them and the gaps between their results. Both were incredible brood war players, and both would go long periods of time between showing strong signs of them being great players in sc2, then immidiately going dormant right after those signs showed up.
EDIT:
Lowell, FD was the first GSL champion. I understand that for a lot of foreign zergs things were hard, but to my memory Korean Zergs weren't having the same issues in all cases.
Lowell is obviously right, and I think almost everyone will agree that the metagame wasn't the only thing that led to zergs becoming really powerful in late WoL. So I really can't see the point of arguing that.
And about Idra, it makes me kind of sad that he has this mindset right now, because I have no doubt he could be a great player otherwise. He just doesn't seem to be able to realize that it doesn't help in any way to blame everything on balance and think you're right and you're just losing because life is unfair. Nothing is gonna change that way. He doesn't even have to think the game is balanced, he should just try to work with how it is instead of giving up. I think as a pro player it's hard to not be terribly biased towards your race, but still most pros manage to maintain a kind of positive mindset. Not sure what's missing in Idras case.
Shakuras Plataeu and Metalopolis bad maps for Zergs?
Okay...end of conversation, I think. You simply don't want to admit that Zerg players went so long while failing to determine (1) the insane cost effectiveness of roaches, popularized by Stephano (whence "Stephano roach"), (2) their ability to freely expand to 3 bases and mass queens without repercussion, (3) the fact that infestors are the best units in the game, and (4) the game-ending brood lord-infestor composition.
Zergs, including Idra, didn't know about ANY of these absolutely crucial and pivotal strategies for the entire period they were behind in win rate.
You say there's nothing wrong with roaches balance wise. Actually, even near the end of WoL...hell, even near the beginning of HotS...Life was winning games left and right with simple roach-ling. Even against HotS units. And despite the magical thinking that Zergs like Idra self-servingly try to encourage...he's no "superhuman" any more than the top Terrans and Protoss...and in WoL, when there were no widow mines to dodge, the pure roach-ling composition wasn't exactly oozing with its micro possibilities.
Honestly when have you started playing? I played Terran in 2010 and Toss in 2011 and among everyone it was basically accepted that Zerg was too weak on those early maps and before the infestor and roach change
I already said in my first post that Idra presented some legitimate points about early WoL balance.
And the game wasn't balanced either near the end of WoL, when Zergs were winning every tournament.
The fact is that (a) Zergs didn't know basic strategies and had plenty of room for improvement (which can't be said about late WoL Protoss players), and (b) even when they were at rock bottom...Protoss players had to endure that level of rock bottom (~10% behind in win rate) periodically since late 2011 EVEN DESPITE a level of innovation which was illustrated by no Zerg player save NesTea.
On May 06 2013 02:23 llIH wrote: I also agree that IdrA does not stream in an entertaining way. But that isn't bad at all. I actually appreciate the information he provides and the "no bullshit" kind of style. Although I really dislike it when he rages and keeps quitting games over and over. I wish he could stop looking at cheese as something bad/wrong and more of a typical strategy.
If I would rank players on how much respect I have for them. I would probably rank IdrA #1. Flash #2. IdrA is a really intelligent person. I doubt many people disagree with me on that. Funny thing is that a lot of intelligent people tend to have anger management problems, or just have short fuses.
I think a lot of people have short fuses, regardless of intelligence.
Smart people figure things out a lot more quickly, can see where things are going, so they tend to react to stimuli sometimes before it even happens, because they can see that it's going to happen. hence, smarter people have shorter fuses
On May 06 2013 02:23 llIH wrote: I also agree that IdrA does not stream in an entertaining way. But that isn't bad at all. I actually appreciate the information he provides and the "no bullshit" kind of style. Although I really dislike it when he rages and keeps quitting games over and over. I wish he could stop looking at cheese as something bad/wrong and more of a typical strategy.
If I would rank players on how much respect I have for them. I would probably rank IdrA #1. Flash #2. IdrA is a really intelligent person. I doubt many people disagree with me on that. Funny thing is that a lot of intelligent people tend to have anger management problems, or just have short fuses.
I think a lot of people have short fuses, regardless of intelligence.
Smart people figure things out a lot more quickly, can see where things are going, so they tend to react to stimuli sometimes before it even happens, because they can see that it's going to happen. hence, smarter people have shorter fuses
well, this was definitely the funniest post in this thread.
As to the people who dont like Idra, has it occurred to you that he realized a while ago he wouldnt be a top player -- even among foreigners -- and simply embraced the role of 'bm king' sometime around late 2011 when he saw the wave of Koreans coming to foreign turneys to take all the money? Incontrol decided to be the friendly, caster personality and Idra took the evil, bm monster you all love to hate on. The only irony here is that back when Idra still played well in tournaments he would disparage people like Destiny who were pure entertainers from day 1.
IdrA is somewhat success imo. He's playing so long time and still among top non-korean players, though there are varieties of rumors of him. I respect him so much <3
On May 06 2013 02:23 llIH wrote: I also agree that IdrA does not stream in an entertaining way. But that isn't bad at all. I actually appreciate the information he provides and the "no bullshit" kind of style. Although I really dislike it when he rages and keeps quitting games over and over. I wish he could stop looking at cheese as something bad/wrong and more of a typical strategy.
If I would rank players on how much respect I have for them. I would probably rank IdrA #1. Flash #2. IdrA is a really intelligent person. I doubt many people disagree with me on that. Funny thing is that a lot of intelligent people tend to have anger management problems, or just have short fuses.
I think a lot of people have short fuses, regardless of intelligence.
Smart people figure things out a lot more quickly, can see where things are going, so they tend to react to stimuli sometimes before it even happens, because they can see that it's going to happen. hence, smarter people have shorter fuses
I have heard some pretty dumb things from Idra's worshippers in the past but the idea that he possess precognition takes the genre to new heights.
On May 06 2013 08:27 Morlock wrote: Shakuras Plataeu and Metalopolis bad maps for Zergs?
Okay...end of conversation, I think. You simply don't want to admit that Zerg players went so long while failing to determine (1) the insane cost effectiveness of roaches, popularized by Stephano (whence "Stephano roach"), (2) their ability to freely expand to 3 bases and mass queens without repercussion, (3) the fact that infestors are the best units in the game, and (4) the game-ending brood lord-infestor composition.
Zergs, including Idra, didn't know about ANY of these absolutely crucial and pivotal strategies for the entire period they were behind in win rate.
You say there's nothing wrong with roaches balance wise. Actually, even near the end of WoL...hell, even near the beginning of HotS...Life was winning games left and right with simple roach-ling. Even against HotS units. And despite the magical thinking that Zergs like Idra self-servingly try to encourage...he's no "superhuman" any more than the top Terrans and Protoss...and in WoL, when there were no widow mines to dodge, the pure roach-ling composition wasn't exactly oozing with its micro possibilities.
Honestly when have you started playing? I played Terran in 2010 and Toss in 2011 and among everyone it was basically accepted that Zerg was too weak on those early maps and before the infestor and roach change
I already said in my first post that Idra presented some legitimate points about early WoL balance.
And the game wasn't balanced either near the end of WoL, when Zergs were winning every tournament.
The fact is that (a) Zergs didn't know basic strategies and had plenty of room for improvement (which can't be said about late WoL Protoss players), and (b) even when they were at rock bottom...Protoss players had to endure that level of rock bottom (~10% behind in win rate) periodically since late 2011 EVEN DESPITE a level of innovation which was illustrated by no Zerg player save NesTea.
Sounds to me you never seen the matches from that time. Metapolis and Shakuras were shitty maps if you had close spawns, cause you the rush distance was so silly small or from Shakuras you could just go from backdoor to backdoor and there was nothing the zerg could do since you couldn't surround or flank there, just 1 straight line.
1) Roaches are/were/will never be cost effective, the only reason they win is cause you can mass them. They also work on a timer cause after a while they are simply dead supply, there is a reason casters say mass roach past a certain part is very bad. Stephano won with them exactly because they were massible, nothing to do with cost ifficienty.
2) Check the maps from that time and say that again please, there was no such thing as fast expand to 3 bases for a looong while. Not to mention before queens got range they basically sat in your base injecting larva and hoping a stray hellion got to close so it could get a hit in. Oh and need to mention the good old 5rax reaper bullshit from gsl open season 1?
3) Infestor's could changed quite a bit in 2011 if i remember, once again not the start. They used to do the same damage but in double the time so halving the DPS.
4)A zerg reaching late game compesition was not the most common thing back in the days, let alone getting enough gas to get those units.
So from what we can conclude is you were never here during the "dark ages of zerg" where the only shiny beacon were Fruitdealer and Nestea.
Btw, the only reason Life wins with those roach attacks is because everyone is retardedly greedy making a third before zerg so ofc you attack them. Has nothing to do with the roach and more with greedy terrans.
On May 06 2013 08:27 Morlock wrote: Shakuras Plataeu and Metalopolis bad maps for Zergs?
First of, Shakuras was pretty bad for Zergs even in it's latest stage, secondly, the version that was played at the beginning of WoL had rocks at the bottom of your mainbase. Close Positions were impossible for Zerg.
And I said 2/3 Metalopolis positions were good Zerg maps, but if the fact that you even want to argue short positions on that map is fucking ridiculus.
i remember watching a zvz with idra against another pro Zerg. Opened the same passive style, idra somehow has one more upgrade than opponent and didn't have a smaller unit count It's pretty insane, also opened my eyes to the power of the macro play
On May 06 2013 14:16 SnipedSoul wrote: Idra also pioneered the idea that having to make anything more than 4 lings before having 70 drones puts zerg in an unwinnable position.
Nope. Just one of those weird things people keep repeating until somehow, someone talks about it as if it was a fact.
On May 06 2013 14:16 SnipedSoul wrote: Idra also pioneered the idea that having to make anything more than 4 lings before having 70 drones puts zerg in an unwinnable position.
That's the groundbreaking basis of all of Starcraft 2 gameplay in the second half of 2012. IdrA so avant-garde.
On May 06 2013 08:27 Morlock wrote: Shakuras Plataeu and Metalopolis bad maps for Zergs?
First of, Shakuras was pretty bad for Zergs even in it's latest stage, secondly, the version that was played at the beginning of WoL had rocks at the bottom of your mainbase. Close Positions were impossible for Zerg.
Absolute rubbish. It's not a bad map for Zerg. It's one of the easiest maps for Zerg because it's so wide open that immortal-sentry all-in is next to impossible along with any other sentry-based play, and the only 3rd that can possibly be held against roach-ling is closest to the Zerg and can be flanked from all directions.
As for the rocks in the first version of that map...arguably they work to Zerg's advantage because the other races don't get overlords, static defence that they can reposition, or units as mobile as lings that can go round and harass the natural and third.
There's a tremendous amount of hearsay about the early WoL maps -- much of it started by Idra, whose credibility is vanishing at this point due to his persistent failure to solve problems that we now know to have been tractable.
Probably there were slight balance issues back then, as I admitted in my first post. But the game was nowhere near as systematically biased against Zerg as you seem to believe. NesTea won tournaments -- hell, even Idra won tournaments -- without even knowing strategies that we now take for granted as a basic part of the meta-game. And when Zerg was at rock bottom in international win rate...Protoss had to endure almost that level of rock bottom many times over from late 2011.
On May 06 2013 08:27 Morlock wrote: Shakuras Plataeu and Metalopolis bad maps for Zergs?
First of, Shakuras was pretty bad for Zergs even in it's latest stage, secondly, the version that was played at the beginning of WoL had rocks at the bottom of your mainbase. Close Positions were impossible for Zerg.
Absolute rubbish. It's not a bad map for Zerg. It's one of the easiest maps for Zerg because it's so wide open that immortal-sentry all-in is next to impossible along with any other sentry-based play, and the only 3rd that can possibly be held against roach-ling is closest to the Zerg and can be flanked from all directions.
As for the rocks in the first version of that map...arguably they work to Zerg's advantage because the other races don't get overlords, static defence that they can reposition, or units as mobile as lings that can go round and harass the natural and third.
There's a tremendous amount of hearsay about the early WoL maps -- much of it started by Idra, whose credibility is vanishing at this point due to his persistent failure to solve problems that we now know to have been tractable.
Probably there were slight balance issues back then, as I admitted in my first post. But the game was nowhere near as systematically biased against Zerg as you seem to believe. NesTea won tournaments -- hell, even Idra won tournaments -- without even knowing strategies that we now take for granted as a basic part of the meta-game. And when Zerg was at rock bottom in international win rate...Protoss had to endure almost that level of rock bottom many times over from late 2011.
immortal sentries all in weren't even invented during shakuras era...it was invented sometime after the immortal buff and the map was also taken down due to other balance issue like the spawn position. the rocks work against zerg favor because zerg breaks rock slowest and the path leads right into main tech
On May 06 2013 08:27 Morlock wrote: Shakuras Plataeu and Metalopolis bad maps for Zergs?
First of, Shakuras was pretty bad for Zergs even in it's latest stage, secondly, the version that was played at the beginning of WoL had rocks at the bottom of your mainbase. Close Positions were impossible for Zerg.
Absolute rubbish. It's not a bad map for Zerg. It's one of the easiest maps for Zerg because it's so wide open that immortal-sentry all-in is next to impossible along with any other sentry-based play, and the only 3rd that can possibly be held against roach-ling is closest to the Zerg and can be flanked from all directions.
As for the rocks in the first version of that map...arguably they work to Zerg's advantage because the other races don't get overlords, static defence that they can reposition, or units as mobile as lings that can go round and harass the natural and third.
There's a tremendous amount of hearsay about the early WoL maps -- much of it started by Idra, whose credibility is vanishing at this point due to his persistent failure to solve problems that we now know to have been tractable.
Probably there were slight balance issues back then, as I admitted in my first post. But the game was nowhere near as systematically biased against Zerg as you seem to believe. NesTea won tournaments -- hell, even Idra won tournaments -- without even knowing strategies that we now take for granted as a basic part of the meta-game. And when Zerg was at rock bottom in international win rate...Protoss had to endure almost that level of rock bottom many times over from late 2011.
Ok this post really made me laugh my ass off. You're an idra-hating, 6 post troll.
On May 06 2013 08:27 Morlock wrote: Shakuras Plataeu and Metalopolis bad maps for Zergs?
First of, Shakuras was pretty bad for Zergs even in it's latest stage, secondly, the version that was played at the beginning of WoL had rocks at the bottom of your mainbase. Close Positions were impossible for Zerg.
Absolute rubbish. It's not a bad map for Zerg. It's one of the easiest maps for Zerg because it's so wide open that immortal-sentry all-in is next to impossible along with any other sentry-based play, and the only 3rd that can possibly be held against roach-ling is closest to the Zerg and can be flanked from all directions.
As for the rocks in the first version of that map...arguably they work to Zerg's advantage because the other races don't get overlords, static defence that they can reposition, or units as mobile as lings that can go round and harass the natural and third.
There's a tremendous amount of hearsay about the early WoL maps -- much of it started by Idra, whose credibility is vanishing at this point due to his persistent failure to solve problems that we now know to have been tractable.
Probably there were slight balance issues back then, as I admitted in my first post. But the game was nowhere near as systematically biased against Zerg as you seem to believe. NesTea won tournaments -- hell, even Idra won tournaments -- without even knowing strategies that we now take for granted as a basic part of the meta-game. And when Zerg was at rock bottom in international win rate...Protoss had to endure almost that level of rock bottom many times over from late 2011.
It's quite clear that you didn't watch, or play, any SC2 late 2010 and early 2011. Zerg didn't get a free third. In fact, Zerg was hard pressed to keep their natural. This wasn't an era of 2-base Immortal timings, it was an era of 4-Gates, 5-Rax Reapers, bitbybit all-ins, 3-Gate Expo into 6-Gates, and on and on.
Zerg didn't smarten up. Toss and Terran both got their tech delayed and rush distances got significantly longer.
On April 30 2013 06:01 Jaaaaasper wrote: He wasn't the first non Korean in Korea to dedicate himself to the game. Why does everyone forget grrr? Grr won a freaking starleague, I think that earns him a bit more credit than the estro coach gave him.
also elky deserves more reputation i think idra is next
On May 06 2013 02:23 llIH wrote: I also agree that IdrA does not stream in an entertaining way. But that isn't bad at all. I actually appreciate the information he provides and the "no bullshit" kind of style. Although I really dislike it when he rages and keeps quitting games over and over. I wish he could stop looking at cheese as something bad/wrong and more of a typical strategy.
If I would rank players on how much respect I have for them. I would probably rank IdrA #1. Flash #2. IdrA is a really intelligent person. I doubt many people disagree with me on that. Funny thing is that a lot of intelligent people tend to have anger management problems, or just have short fuses.
I think a lot of people have short fuses, regardless of intelligence.
Smart people figure things out a lot more quickly, can see where things are going, so they tend to react to stimuli sometimes before it even happens, because they can see that it's going to happen. hence, smarter people have shorter fuses
I have heard some pretty dumb things from Idra's worshippers in the past but the idea that he possess precognition takes the genre to new heights.
Maybe he is precognitive, hence all those early ggs.
On May 07 2013 02:09 WolfintheSheep wrote: Zerg didn't smarten up. Toss and Terran both got their tech delayed and rush distances got significantly longer.
Didn't smarten up -- even though the top players didn't know about brood-infestor composition and a tonne of other things?
The fact is that Zergs quite obviously hadn't figured out the game as early as 2010 or even 2011...and anybody saying otherwise is a delusional piece of shit with an infallibility complex.
On May 07 2013 02:09 WolfintheSheep wrote: Zerg didn't smarten up. Toss and Terran both got their tech delayed and rush distances got significantly longer.
Didn't smarten up -- even though the top players didn't know about brood-infestor composition and a tonne of other things?
The fact is that Zergs quite obviously hadn't figured out the game as early as 2010 or even 2011...and anybody saying otherwise is a delusional piece of shit with an infallibility complex.
Please read what I said. Broodlord/Infestor does not defend against a 4-gate, 5-rax Reaper or a bitbybit all-in.
Stop talking about lategame compositions. Late game did not exist.
On May 06 2013 04:42 Morlock wrote: Early on in WoL, he seemed reasonable enough with his balance gripes. It was such bullshit that Protoss could tech up to a death ball, and there was almost nothing a Zerg could do. Idra participated in a couple of episodes of "Imbalanced" that he filmed with Artosis and raised some valid points.
But it's got to the stage where he's kind of a laughing stock now. Zerg was the dominant race for the final year of WoL, but Idra failed to profit from it. There were about 10 foreigner Zergs ahead of him or on his level. And now when the boot is on the other foot, he demonstrates the most abysmal BM to people like Demuslim, who are taking advantage of their own balance peak in ways that Idra never did.
How did Zerg go from weak to overpowered in WoL? Some of it was through patches...but most of it was through innovation in the meta-game. Innovation that Idra's attitude prevented him from spearheading, or indeed even staying abreast of. He was still making hydras until the end of WoL. He never seemed to master the art of roach pressure or understand some of the basic PvZ timings.
You'd expect that somebody with such a track record would tread guardedly or not at all before opining on the meta-game in HotS. But the leopard hasn't changed his spots, and he's actually grown some more. And his limitations are being proven again as better and more innovative Zergs figure out how to solve problems that he only moans about.
Compare his stream with those of Demuslim and Naniwa -- humble guys, who learn from their mistakes -- and it's no deep mystery why they're much better players.
delusional to think zerg's change was due to 'the metagame'. It was just a series of patches favoring them.
On May 06 2013 04:42 Morlock wrote: Early on in WoL, he seemed reasonable enough with his balance gripes. It was such bullshit that Protoss could tech up to a death ball, and there was almost nothing a Zerg could do. Idra participated in a couple of episodes of "Imbalanced" that he filmed with Artosis and raised some valid points.
But it's got to the stage where he's kind of a laughing stock now. Zerg was the dominant race for the final year of WoL, but Idra failed to profit from it. There were about 10 foreigner Zergs ahead of him or on his level. And now when the boot is on the other foot, he demonstrates the most abysmal BM to people like Demuslim, who are taking advantage of their own balance peak in ways that Idra never did.
How did Zerg go from weak to overpowered in WoL? Some of it was through patches...but most of it was through innovation in the meta-game. Innovation that Idra's attitude prevented him from spearheading, or indeed even staying abreast of. He was still making hydras until the end of WoL. He never seemed to master the art of roach pressure or understand some of the basic PvZ timings.
You'd expect that somebody with such a track record would tread guardedly or not at all before opining on the meta-game in HotS. But the leopard hasn't changed his spots, and he's actually grown some more. And his limitations are being proven again as better and more innovative Zergs figure out how to solve problems that he only moans about.
Compare his stream with those of Demuslim and Naniwa -- humble guys, who learn from their mistakes -- and it's no deep mystery why they're much better players.
I don't think that's the reason why Demuslim is performing so good at the moment. Proper training, right mindset and objective learning from your own mistakes made him a great player he is. It's has very little to do with current balance. If you want to take game balance into account of how well he is performing, it would be better to say that zerg is no longer so freaking good like they were in late WoL, not because 'terran is somewhat OP in HotS'.
Also, it's mind blowing that people think metalopolis was balanced/not zerg favored map. Close positions were removed long time before metalopolis disappeared from tournaments. And at one point, zergs had close to 70% win ratio in TvZ on it. It was ridiculous.
On May 07 2013 02:09 WolfintheSheep wrote: Zerg didn't smarten up. Toss and Terran both got their tech delayed and rush distances got significantly longer.
Didn't smarten up -- even though the top players didn't know about brood-infestor composition and a tonne of other things?
The fact is that Zergs quite obviously hadn't figured out the game as early as 2010 or even 2011...and anybody saying otherwise is a delusional piece of shit with an infallibility complex.
EIther you didn't watch GSL back then, or you are supressing some bad memories. Whatever it is, that post was uncalled for, especially since you are completely WRONG in every possible way.
Infestor/Broodlord didn't defend against 4gate. It didn't defend against 2rax, 5rax reaper or scv pulls either. Then entering 2011, we were finally allowed to get our natural expansion up, but the late game still didn't happen. After dealing with bunker pressure, BFH, Banshees and Siege tanks that could literally hit our natural from theirs, we could finally go into the lategame. This took SEVERAL patches though, and I'm not sure if you're that delusional to think that the queen range, the reaper nerf, the BFH nerf, the delayed gateway timing and finally: the ghost nerf for lategame ZvT, had nothing to do with how Zerg evolved? Of course a lot can be attributed to the metagame as well, but Zerg had to overcome a serious challenge, and IdrA wasn't far off when he debated the balance changes back then. But it was very different back then.
On May 06 2013 08:27 Morlock wrote: Shakuras Plataeu and Metalopolis bad maps for Zergs?
I'll give you Metal after they eliminated a) close spawns and b) blockable ramps. But you know that took over a half a year to happen right?
Shakuras Plateau though was a pretty bad Zerg map in both of it's iterations.
The backdoor rocks made vertical spawning positions completely impossible for Zerg to stop early aggression; and even when the rocks were removed, it was a build in "cliff" for Terran players to use.
The first 3 bases in a triangle made it infinitely turte-able for both Terran and Protoss and Zerg couldn't do much about it.
Of course on ladder this was a different situation where most league games didn't feature 3rd bases...
Okay...end of conversation, I think. You simply don't want to admit that Zerg players went so long while failing to determine (1) the insane cost effectiveness of roaches, popularized by Stephano (whence "Stephano roach"), (2) their ability to freely expand to 3 bases and mass queens without repercussion, (3) the fact that infestors are the best units in the game, and (4) the game-ending brood lord-infestor composition.
Zergs, including Idra, didn't know about ANY of these absolutely crucial and pivotal strategies for the entire period they were behind in win rate.
For the roach.. you do know that the roach had 3 range and was kitable by both reapers *and* hellions right? 3 range also meant that Protoss could FFE in a way that literally made it *impossible* for zerg to attack the cannons pre-lair.
Also, did you forget that when the Roach was buffed to 4 range that Idra immediately won MLG? So to say he didn't "grasp the roach" is completely revisionist. He used it before and once it was buffed he won. Does that sound like a meta-game thing to you?
Before the infestor was buffed do you know what the ZvP composition was roach / hydra? You threw in corrupters to kill Colo. Then the Void-Ray Colo builds happened and the infestor was buffed because without it there wasn't much Zerg could do against this composition.
Another fun fact, when this buff was announced did you know Idra said this might make the Infestor too strong actually (and the Infestor has received a few nerfs since then).
You're points are all so reliant on patches making them possible that I don't even know what to say...
Zerg couldn't get to 3 bases for free without the Queen buff; if the Zerg couldn't start the game on such a high economy it was very difficult to transition into a big Hive army. Spawning 10 corrupters at once to morph into broods once Greater Spire finishes requires a huge bank; if you don't do that then you have have dead supply in corrupters for a while, plus telegraph the timing on your transition.
On May 07 2013 06:13 Pharnax wrote: EIther you didn't watch GSL back then, or you are supressing some bad memories. Whatever it is, that post was uncalled for, especially since you are completely WRONG in every possible way.
Wrong relative to someone with a selective memory who lacks basic critical thinking skills.
Watch the episodes of fucking imbalanced, co-hosted by Idra himself. They're still on Youtube; just watch those fucking episodes. Several months into the game, the problem wasn't 4 gate. It was the death ball. And that is the considered opinion of the arch Zerg balance whiner himself when his race was at its nadir.
How was the death ball stopped in the end? Partly because of the void ray nerf...but mostly because Zerg learned how to play, started using roach pressure, began massing infestors and building more than a few spinecrawlers...and discovered brood-infestor.
What we're seeing in this thread is face-saving rationalizations to cover for a failure of problem-solving skills.
You'll understand the game a lot better if you accept that the meta-game is important, and some players have success in solving strategic problems...whereas others don't. It's exactly what we're seeing all over again in HotS as Zergs like Stephano sit at the top of the ladder, whereas Idra languishes around #30 and blames the game for his failures.
Do you see a Void Ray change in there? Do you know what everyone else sees? A gigantic Infestor buff.
Okay, on second thoughts, I accept that the infestor buff was probably the most significant factor which allowed Zerg to pull ahead.
All of that waffle about maps, void rays, 4 gate, reaper rush, etc., was unnecessary.
But the point remains that you shouldn't underestimate the meta-game development. The reason Idra was such a limited player was, first and foremost, he was constantly behind on the metagame. And the same is happening in HotS.
Do you see a Void Ray change in there? Do you know what everyone else sees? A gigantic Infestor buff.
Okay, on second thoughts, I accept that the infestor buff was probably the most significant factor which allowed Zerg to pull ahead.
All of that waffle about maps, void rays, 4 gate, reaper rush, etc., was unnecessary.
But the point remains that you shouldn't underestimate the meta-game development. The reason Idra was such a limited player was, first and foremost, he was constantly behind on the metagame. And the same is happening in HotS.
No it wasn't. Zerg had to deal with soo much crap in the start WoL it wasn't even funny. Wanna know how bad it was? Reaching lair against well controlled 5rax reaper was nearly impossible since you only had slow roaches with range 3 that get kited for eternity and zerglings that get picked off before you get a decent amount to surround them. This was also when reapers had nades for buildings so spines were also gone.
Once again, you are talking about stuff that is by now obvious by everyone here you were clearly not here to see it for yourself and have no clue how bad zergs had it in the start. Meta game developing is one thing, dealing with utter bullshit (like 5rax reaper) is something completely different.
On May 07 2013 10:09 Assirra wrote: No it wasn't. Zerg had to deal with soo much crap in the start WoL it wasn't even funny. Wanna know how bad it was? Reaching lair against well controlled 5rax reaper was nearly impossible since you only had slow roaches with range 3 that get kited for eternity and zerglings that get picked off before you get a decent amount to surround them. This was also when reapers had nades for buildings so spines were also gone..
I've already presented statistics to show that Protoss's win rate, repeatedly throughout WoL, was comparable to Zerg's win rate at its nadir.
Imba bullshit for one race is "shoulda, woulda, coulda" for another race.
I'm not convinced that well controlled 5 rax reaper was "nearly impossible" to stop. If it were, NesTea would not have been able to dominate tournaments as he did with scores like 4-0 every game.
The Zerg PR machine explain this away by implying that NesTea is "superhuman"...just like they're doing now with respect to Life and Leenock. He wasn't superhuman; he just innovated, solved the problems, and knew the right strategies.
I agree that Terran was OP in that stage of the game. But the patches made it so that Zerg was OP...and where was the Zerg PR machine then?
On April 30 2013 06:18 BoggieMan wrote: I really admire idras mechanicaly macro focused style, too bad he isen't doing so well in sc2 as he was in bw...
He's actually had more success I think. Won an mlg, ipl, iem, asus ROG and several other events.
I would argue the opposite. Even though he didn't have the titles in BW, his skill level when compared to the Koreans was higher wasn't it? He would have been a very good B-teamer in BW and the only foreign one. Now he would be a B-Teamer foreigner among quite a few other foreign B-teamers both of which some would argue are better.
Edit: I guess i misread this. Success can be measured in different ways, and the biggest factor is wins of a tournament for money and that he has done much more of in SC2
On May 07 2013 10:09 Assirra wrote: No it wasn't. Zerg had to deal with soo much crap in the start WoL it wasn't even funny. Wanna know how bad it was? Reaching lair against well controlled 5rax reaper was nearly impossible since you only had slow roaches with range 3 that get kited for eternity and zerglings that get picked off before you get a decent amount to surround them. This was also when reapers had nades for buildings so spines were also gone..
I've already presented statistics to show that Protoss's win rate, repeatedly throughout WoL, was comparable to Zerg's win rate at its nadir.
Imba bullshit for one race is "shoulda, woulda, coulda" for another race.
I'm not convinced that well controlled 5 rax reaper was "nearly impossible" to stop. If it were, NesTea would not have been able to dominate tournaments as he did with scores like 4-0 every game.
The Zerg PR machine explain this away by implying that NesTea is "superhuman"...just like they're doing now with respect to Life and Leenock. He wasn't superhuman; he just innovated, solved the problems, and knew the right strategies.
I agree that Terran was OP in that stage of the game. But the patches made it so that Zerg was OP...and where was the Zerg PR machine then?
The FD title especially is embarrassing for non-zergs. Zerg PR machine was working at all times but the threads got locked because both TL and Blizzard staff hate zerg.
On May 07 2013 21:56 Morlock wrote: I'm not convinced that well controlled 5 rax reaper was "nearly impossible" to stop. If it were, NesTea would not have been able to dominate tournaments as he did with scores like 4-0 every game.
It helps that Nestea never had to play against 5-rax reaper to win his GSL titles.
5-rax reaper was patched out of the game during GSL open season 1.
You really need to stop trying to try to tell us what SC2 was like in 2010 / early 2011.
On May 07 2013 21:56 Morlock wrote: I'm not convinced that well controlled 5 rax reaper was "nearly impossible" to stop. If it were, NesTea would not have been able to dominate tournaments as he did with scores like 4-0 every game.
It helps that Nestea never had to play against 5-rax reaper to win his GSL titles.
5-rax reaper was patched out of the game during GSL open season 1.
You really need to stop trying to try to tell us what SC2 was like in 2010 / early 2011.
Then stop mentioning irrelevant facts. In a debate I give my opponents the benefit of the doubt by assuming they're not waffling.
If 5 rax reaper was patched during open season 1, then it's completely irrelevant to the period we're discussing when Zerg was in its slump. And it's nothing but filler, waffle, and yet another excuse contrived by the Zerg PR machine.
On May 09 2013 04:49 unkkz wrote: Protoss has had the worst winrates since like forever but i always see zerg and terrans bickering for some reason, i find this kinda odd.
It's entirely subjective, much like how others mention "the Zerg PR machine" in every other post as if that somehow validates anything. Theoretically it could be a number of players thing, but I kind of doubt even that much is true atm.
Personally I wouldn't want to be identified with any of the balance whiners just because they may play the same race anyway. Don't be smug because you remember less whiners this way or that, be happy because you're not one of them.
Unless you are. In which case I'm sure you have other qualities. Possibly.
He showed great potential vs polt in game 1 of their series and played almost up to par with Revival who has been in a korean training house under a coach. Ofcourse we hoped he would do a bit better, the end of game 1 and going into game 2 with polt, just leaves a very very sour taste.
Typical idrA play in the WCS so far. He's such a shit player. Anyone else hoping for an epic Demuslim vs idrA meeting in the Challenger league, with Demu stream rolling through amidst early gg's and rage tears from the midget ginger known as idrA, the man-child who has admitted to having "no passion for the game".
On May 09 2013 09:32 unkkz wrote: So if Idra gets knocked out of WCS, retirement? Seriously he hasn´t done well for sooo long.
He doesn't care I think. Streaming is where his money come from, and what he does ( or doesn't do ) in tournaments give him more viewers and more money.
EPT
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