On May 06 2013 02:23 llIH wrote: I also agree that IdrA does not stream in an entertaining way. But that isn't bad at all. I actually appreciate the information he provides and the "no bullshit" kind of style. Although I really dislike it when he rages and keeps quitting games over and over. I wish he could stop looking at cheese as something bad/wrong and more of a typical strategy.
If I would rank players on how much respect I have for them. I would probably rank IdrA #1. Flash #2. IdrA is a really intelligent person. I doubt many people disagree with me on that. Funny thing is that a lot of intelligent people tend to have anger management problems, or just have short fuses.
I think a lot of people have short fuses, regardless of intelligence.
Smart people figure things out a lot more quickly, can see where things are going, so they tend to react to stimuli sometimes before it even happens, because they can see that it's going to happen. hence, smarter people have shorter fuses
I have heard some pretty dumb things from Idra's worshippers in the past but the idea that he possess precognition takes the genre to new heights.
On May 06 2013 08:27 Morlock wrote: Shakuras Plataeu and Metalopolis bad maps for Zergs?
Okay...end of conversation, I think. You simply don't want to admit that Zerg players went so long while failing to determine (1) the insane cost effectiveness of roaches, popularized by Stephano (whence "Stephano roach"), (2) their ability to freely expand to 3 bases and mass queens without repercussion, (3) the fact that infestors are the best units in the game, and (4) the game-ending brood lord-infestor composition.
Zergs, including Idra, didn't know about ANY of these absolutely crucial and pivotal strategies for the entire period they were behind in win rate.
You say there's nothing wrong with roaches balance wise. Actually, even near the end of WoL...hell, even near the beginning of HotS...Life was winning games left and right with simple roach-ling. Even against HotS units. And despite the magical thinking that Zergs like Idra self-servingly try to encourage...he's no "superhuman" any more than the top Terrans and Protoss...and in WoL, when there were no widow mines to dodge, the pure roach-ling composition wasn't exactly oozing with its micro possibilities.
Honestly when have you started playing? I played Terran in 2010 and Toss in 2011 and among everyone it was basically accepted that Zerg was too weak on those early maps and before the infestor and roach change
I already said in my first post that Idra presented some legitimate points about early WoL balance.
And the game wasn't balanced either near the end of WoL, when Zergs were winning every tournament.
The fact is that (a) Zergs didn't know basic strategies and had plenty of room for improvement (which can't be said about late WoL Protoss players), and (b) even when they were at rock bottom...Protoss players had to endure that level of rock bottom (~10% behind in win rate) periodically since late 2011 EVEN DESPITE a level of innovation which was illustrated by no Zerg player save NesTea.
Sounds to me you never seen the matches from that time. Metapolis and Shakuras were shitty maps if you had close spawns, cause you the rush distance was so silly small or from Shakuras you could just go from backdoor to backdoor and there was nothing the zerg could do since you couldn't surround or flank there, just 1 straight line.
1) Roaches are/were/will never be cost effective, the only reason they win is cause you can mass them. They also work on a timer cause after a while they are simply dead supply, there is a reason casters say mass roach past a certain part is very bad. Stephano won with them exactly because they were massible, nothing to do with cost ifficienty.
2) Check the maps from that time and say that again please, there was no such thing as fast expand to 3 bases for a looong while. Not to mention before queens got range they basically sat in your base injecting larva and hoping a stray hellion got to close so it could get a hit in. Oh and need to mention the good old 5rax reaper bullshit from gsl open season 1?
3) Infestor's could changed quite a bit in 2011 if i remember, once again not the start. They used to do the same damage but in double the time so halving the DPS.
4)A zerg reaching late game compesition was not the most common thing back in the days, let alone getting enough gas to get those units.
So from what we can conclude is you were never here during the "dark ages of zerg" where the only shiny beacon were Fruitdealer and Nestea.
Btw, the only reason Life wins with those roach attacks is because everyone is retardedly greedy making a third before zerg so ofc you attack them. Has nothing to do with the roach and more with greedy terrans.
On May 06 2013 08:27 Morlock wrote: Shakuras Plataeu and Metalopolis bad maps for Zergs?
First of, Shakuras was pretty bad for Zergs even in it's latest stage, secondly, the version that was played at the beginning of WoL had rocks at the bottom of your mainbase. Close Positions were impossible for Zerg.
And I said 2/3 Metalopolis positions were good Zerg maps, but if the fact that you even want to argue short positions on that map is fucking ridiculus.
i remember watching a zvz with idra against another pro Zerg. Opened the same passive style, idra somehow has one more upgrade than opponent and didn't have a smaller unit count It's pretty insane, also opened my eyes to the power of the macro play
On May 06 2013 14:16 SnipedSoul wrote: Idra also pioneered the idea that having to make anything more than 4 lings before having 70 drones puts zerg in an unwinnable position.
Nope. Just one of those weird things people keep repeating until somehow, someone talks about it as if it was a fact.
On May 06 2013 14:16 SnipedSoul wrote: Idra also pioneered the idea that having to make anything more than 4 lings before having 70 drones puts zerg in an unwinnable position.
That's the groundbreaking basis of all of Starcraft 2 gameplay in the second half of 2012. IdrA so avant-garde.
On May 06 2013 08:27 Morlock wrote: Shakuras Plataeu and Metalopolis bad maps for Zergs?
First of, Shakuras was pretty bad for Zergs even in it's latest stage, secondly, the version that was played at the beginning of WoL had rocks at the bottom of your mainbase. Close Positions were impossible for Zerg.
Absolute rubbish. It's not a bad map for Zerg. It's one of the easiest maps for Zerg because it's so wide open that immortal-sentry all-in is next to impossible along with any other sentry-based play, and the only 3rd that can possibly be held against roach-ling is closest to the Zerg and can be flanked from all directions.
As for the rocks in the first version of that map...arguably they work to Zerg's advantage because the other races don't get overlords, static defence that they can reposition, or units as mobile as lings that can go round and harass the natural and third.
There's a tremendous amount of hearsay about the early WoL maps -- much of it started by Idra, whose credibility is vanishing at this point due to his persistent failure to solve problems that we now know to have been tractable.
Probably there were slight balance issues back then, as I admitted in my first post. But the game was nowhere near as systematically biased against Zerg as you seem to believe. NesTea won tournaments -- hell, even Idra won tournaments -- without even knowing strategies that we now take for granted as a basic part of the meta-game. And when Zerg was at rock bottom in international win rate...Protoss had to endure almost that level of rock bottom many times over from late 2011.
On May 06 2013 08:27 Morlock wrote: Shakuras Plataeu and Metalopolis bad maps for Zergs?
First of, Shakuras was pretty bad for Zergs even in it's latest stage, secondly, the version that was played at the beginning of WoL had rocks at the bottom of your mainbase. Close Positions were impossible for Zerg.
Absolute rubbish. It's not a bad map for Zerg. It's one of the easiest maps for Zerg because it's so wide open that immortal-sentry all-in is next to impossible along with any other sentry-based play, and the only 3rd that can possibly be held against roach-ling is closest to the Zerg and can be flanked from all directions.
As for the rocks in the first version of that map...arguably they work to Zerg's advantage because the other races don't get overlords, static defence that they can reposition, or units as mobile as lings that can go round and harass the natural and third.
There's a tremendous amount of hearsay about the early WoL maps -- much of it started by Idra, whose credibility is vanishing at this point due to his persistent failure to solve problems that we now know to have been tractable.
Probably there were slight balance issues back then, as I admitted in my first post. But the game was nowhere near as systematically biased against Zerg as you seem to believe. NesTea won tournaments -- hell, even Idra won tournaments -- without even knowing strategies that we now take for granted as a basic part of the meta-game. And when Zerg was at rock bottom in international win rate...Protoss had to endure almost that level of rock bottom many times over from late 2011.
immortal sentries all in weren't even invented during shakuras era...it was invented sometime after the immortal buff and the map was also taken down due to other balance issue like the spawn position. the rocks work against zerg favor because zerg breaks rock slowest and the path leads right into main tech
On May 06 2013 08:27 Morlock wrote: Shakuras Plataeu and Metalopolis bad maps for Zergs?
First of, Shakuras was pretty bad for Zergs even in it's latest stage, secondly, the version that was played at the beginning of WoL had rocks at the bottom of your mainbase. Close Positions were impossible for Zerg.
Absolute rubbish. It's not a bad map for Zerg. It's one of the easiest maps for Zerg because it's so wide open that immortal-sentry all-in is next to impossible along with any other sentry-based play, and the only 3rd that can possibly be held against roach-ling is closest to the Zerg and can be flanked from all directions.
As for the rocks in the first version of that map...arguably they work to Zerg's advantage because the other races don't get overlords, static defence that they can reposition, or units as mobile as lings that can go round and harass the natural and third.
There's a tremendous amount of hearsay about the early WoL maps -- much of it started by Idra, whose credibility is vanishing at this point due to his persistent failure to solve problems that we now know to have been tractable.
Probably there were slight balance issues back then, as I admitted in my first post. But the game was nowhere near as systematically biased against Zerg as you seem to believe. NesTea won tournaments -- hell, even Idra won tournaments -- without even knowing strategies that we now take for granted as a basic part of the meta-game. And when Zerg was at rock bottom in international win rate...Protoss had to endure almost that level of rock bottom many times over from late 2011.
Ok this post really made me laugh my ass off. You're an idra-hating, 6 post troll.
On May 06 2013 08:27 Morlock wrote: Shakuras Plataeu and Metalopolis bad maps for Zergs?
First of, Shakuras was pretty bad for Zergs even in it's latest stage, secondly, the version that was played at the beginning of WoL had rocks at the bottom of your mainbase. Close Positions were impossible for Zerg.
Absolute rubbish. It's not a bad map for Zerg. It's one of the easiest maps for Zerg because it's so wide open that immortal-sentry all-in is next to impossible along with any other sentry-based play, and the only 3rd that can possibly be held against roach-ling is closest to the Zerg and can be flanked from all directions.
As for the rocks in the first version of that map...arguably they work to Zerg's advantage because the other races don't get overlords, static defence that they can reposition, or units as mobile as lings that can go round and harass the natural and third.
There's a tremendous amount of hearsay about the early WoL maps -- much of it started by Idra, whose credibility is vanishing at this point due to his persistent failure to solve problems that we now know to have been tractable.
Probably there were slight balance issues back then, as I admitted in my first post. But the game was nowhere near as systematically biased against Zerg as you seem to believe. NesTea won tournaments -- hell, even Idra won tournaments -- without even knowing strategies that we now take for granted as a basic part of the meta-game. And when Zerg was at rock bottom in international win rate...Protoss had to endure almost that level of rock bottom many times over from late 2011.
It's quite clear that you didn't watch, or play, any SC2 late 2010 and early 2011. Zerg didn't get a free third. In fact, Zerg was hard pressed to keep their natural. This wasn't an era of 2-base Immortal timings, it was an era of 4-Gates, 5-Rax Reapers, bitbybit all-ins, 3-Gate Expo into 6-Gates, and on and on.
Zerg didn't smarten up. Toss and Terran both got their tech delayed and rush distances got significantly longer.
On April 30 2013 06:01 Jaaaaasper wrote: He wasn't the first non Korean in Korea to dedicate himself to the game. Why does everyone forget grrr? Grr won a freaking starleague, I think that earns him a bit more credit than the estro coach gave him.
also elky deserves more reputation i think idra is next
On May 06 2013 02:23 llIH wrote: I also agree that IdrA does not stream in an entertaining way. But that isn't bad at all. I actually appreciate the information he provides and the "no bullshit" kind of style. Although I really dislike it when he rages and keeps quitting games over and over. I wish he could stop looking at cheese as something bad/wrong and more of a typical strategy.
If I would rank players on how much respect I have for them. I would probably rank IdrA #1. Flash #2. IdrA is a really intelligent person. I doubt many people disagree with me on that. Funny thing is that a lot of intelligent people tend to have anger management problems, or just have short fuses.
I think a lot of people have short fuses, regardless of intelligence.
Smart people figure things out a lot more quickly, can see where things are going, so they tend to react to stimuli sometimes before it even happens, because they can see that it's going to happen. hence, smarter people have shorter fuses
I have heard some pretty dumb things from Idra's worshippers in the past but the idea that he possess precognition takes the genre to new heights.
Maybe he is precognitive, hence all those early ggs.
On May 07 2013 02:09 WolfintheSheep wrote: Zerg didn't smarten up. Toss and Terran both got their tech delayed and rush distances got significantly longer.
Didn't smarten up -- even though the top players didn't know about brood-infestor composition and a tonne of other things?
The fact is that Zergs quite obviously hadn't figured out the game as early as 2010 or even 2011...and anybody saying otherwise is a delusional piece of shit with an infallibility complex.
On May 07 2013 02:09 WolfintheSheep wrote: Zerg didn't smarten up. Toss and Terran both got their tech delayed and rush distances got significantly longer.
Didn't smarten up -- even though the top players didn't know about brood-infestor composition and a tonne of other things?
The fact is that Zergs quite obviously hadn't figured out the game as early as 2010 or even 2011...and anybody saying otherwise is a delusional piece of shit with an infallibility complex.
Please read what I said. Broodlord/Infestor does not defend against a 4-gate, 5-rax Reaper or a bitbybit all-in.
Stop talking about lategame compositions. Late game did not exist.
On May 06 2013 04:42 Morlock wrote: Early on in WoL, he seemed reasonable enough with his balance gripes. It was such bullshit that Protoss could tech up to a death ball, and there was almost nothing a Zerg could do. Idra participated in a couple of episodes of "Imbalanced" that he filmed with Artosis and raised some valid points.
But it's got to the stage where he's kind of a laughing stock now. Zerg was the dominant race for the final year of WoL, but Idra failed to profit from it. There were about 10 foreigner Zergs ahead of him or on his level. And now when the boot is on the other foot, he demonstrates the most abysmal BM to people like Demuslim, who are taking advantage of their own balance peak in ways that Idra never did.
How did Zerg go from weak to overpowered in WoL? Some of it was through patches...but most of it was through innovation in the meta-game. Innovation that Idra's attitude prevented him from spearheading, or indeed even staying abreast of. He was still making hydras until the end of WoL. He never seemed to master the art of roach pressure or understand some of the basic PvZ timings.
You'd expect that somebody with such a track record would tread guardedly or not at all before opining on the meta-game in HotS. But the leopard hasn't changed his spots, and he's actually grown some more. And his limitations are being proven again as better and more innovative Zergs figure out how to solve problems that he only moans about.
Compare his stream with those of Demuslim and Naniwa -- humble guys, who learn from their mistakes -- and it's no deep mystery why they're much better players.
delusional to think zerg's change was due to 'the metagame'. It was just a series of patches favoring them.
On May 06 2013 04:42 Morlock wrote: Early on in WoL, he seemed reasonable enough with his balance gripes. It was such bullshit that Protoss could tech up to a death ball, and there was almost nothing a Zerg could do. Idra participated in a couple of episodes of "Imbalanced" that he filmed with Artosis and raised some valid points.
But it's got to the stage where he's kind of a laughing stock now. Zerg was the dominant race for the final year of WoL, but Idra failed to profit from it. There were about 10 foreigner Zergs ahead of him or on his level. And now when the boot is on the other foot, he demonstrates the most abysmal BM to people like Demuslim, who are taking advantage of their own balance peak in ways that Idra never did.
How did Zerg go from weak to overpowered in WoL? Some of it was through patches...but most of it was through innovation in the meta-game. Innovation that Idra's attitude prevented him from spearheading, or indeed even staying abreast of. He was still making hydras until the end of WoL. He never seemed to master the art of roach pressure or understand some of the basic PvZ timings.
You'd expect that somebody with such a track record would tread guardedly or not at all before opining on the meta-game in HotS. But the leopard hasn't changed his spots, and he's actually grown some more. And his limitations are being proven again as better and more innovative Zergs figure out how to solve problems that he only moans about.
Compare his stream with those of Demuslim and Naniwa -- humble guys, who learn from their mistakes -- and it's no deep mystery why they're much better players.
I don't think that's the reason why Demuslim is performing so good at the moment. Proper training, right mindset and objective learning from your own mistakes made him a great player he is. It's has very little to do with current balance. If you want to take game balance into account of how well he is performing, it would be better to say that zerg is no longer so freaking good like they were in late WoL, not because 'terran is somewhat OP in HotS'.
Also, it's mind blowing that people think metalopolis was balanced/not zerg favored map. Close positions were removed long time before metalopolis disappeared from tournaments. And at one point, zergs had close to 70% win ratio in TvZ on it. It was ridiculous.
On May 07 2013 02:09 WolfintheSheep wrote: Zerg didn't smarten up. Toss and Terran both got their tech delayed and rush distances got significantly longer.
Didn't smarten up -- even though the top players didn't know about brood-infestor composition and a tonne of other things?
The fact is that Zergs quite obviously hadn't figured out the game as early as 2010 or even 2011...and anybody saying otherwise is a delusional piece of shit with an infallibility complex.
EIther you didn't watch GSL back then, or you are supressing some bad memories. Whatever it is, that post was uncalled for, especially since you are completely WRONG in every possible way.
Infestor/Broodlord didn't defend against 4gate. It didn't defend against 2rax, 5rax reaper or scv pulls either. Then entering 2011, we were finally allowed to get our natural expansion up, but the late game still didn't happen. After dealing with bunker pressure, BFH, Banshees and Siege tanks that could literally hit our natural from theirs, we could finally go into the lategame. This took SEVERAL patches though, and I'm not sure if you're that delusional to think that the queen range, the reaper nerf, the BFH nerf, the delayed gateway timing and finally: the ghost nerf for lategame ZvT, had nothing to do with how Zerg evolved? Of course a lot can be attributed to the metagame as well, but Zerg had to overcome a serious challenge, and IdrA wasn't far off when he debated the balance changes back then. But it was very different back then.
EPT
i think idra is next 
