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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
On May 06 2013 02:30 lisward wrote: I think a lot of people have short fuses, regardless of intelligence. Its usually the internet that makes people this way, most of the people raging on the web and calling people fucktards left and right never does this in real life. The Internet bring out the worst in many | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On May 01 2013 05:25 Wuster wrote: I heard a term used to describe really talented players who didn't live up to their potential: 'Loves to play the game, more than he loves to win.' Obviously this isn't why all talented players underachieve; but I think it applies to Idra in a way. If you watch pro sports / competition often the win at all costs attitude leads to them using strategies / game plans that you just wouldn't see between a bunch of guys playing for fun. Of course what is 'playing the game' versus 'playing to win' is subjective; but I think that describes Idra's approach towards the game. In a way it would be admirable if not for the other side of Idra. His disregard for opponents that play to win / appear weaker than him. It's why he got a reputation for not backing up his talk (look at all those quotes right before he gets crushed in important matches!). Even in the TSL 3 preview for Idra - Cruncher; Chill basically said Idra can't understand what a player like Cruncher is and that's why he'll lose. It was a little tongue in cheek, but I still think that describes Idra's blindspot pretty well. I can't agree with Idra playing because he loves the game at all. He plays to win, its extremely evident that he cannot handle losing well as he constantly cusses people on the ladder when he loses. His competitiveness is also the cause of the apparent fallout between him and Demuslim. He is extremely competitive and Starcraft is just an outlet for that. His problem is that he has these weird concepts of how winning should be achieved in the game, he has had them since the BW days and seems to be unable to let them go. These ideals of "proper Starcraft" is obviously ultimately the thing that holds him back as a player. That and the inefficient practice that comes from needing to win every game and getting angry instead of analyzing his losses. Does Idra have any practice partners left? | ||
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kafkaesque
Germany2006 Posts
IdrA is like the Willy Loman of Starcraft. Not because both are bald, but because after having had success in the past, both are now delusional about their ability, constantly badmouthing better men, completely lacking introspection, forever blaming outside influences for their own failure. No matter which play you watch, you do so with a sense of pity and while you hope things get better, in the back of your mind you know you're observing a lost cause. The only difference is that Willy Loman has a wife. | ||
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ImperialFist
790 Posts
On May 01 2013 20:52 graNite wrote: my favourite idra quote is "he is frech-canadian so hes going to fast expand" Actually it goes like this ==== "He's french-canadian so he's gonna fast-expand into a stupid zealot timing into something else gay." (This was vs the Real God of Protoss TT1, yeah I really like him dunno why T_T) Also yesterday Idra played vs AlexCmoi on stream and said ==== "He's a french-Canadian terran, which explains why he is such an obnoxious douchebag." (Alex then went on to win the game because TERRAN into RQ by Idra.) Hilarious! :D | ||
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Morlock
68 Posts
But it's got to the stage where he's kind of a laughing stock now. Zerg was the dominant race for the final year of WoL, but Idra failed to profit from it. There were about 10 foreigner Zergs ahead of him or on his level. And now when the boot is on the other foot, he demonstrates the most abysmal BM to people like Demuslim, who are taking advantage of their own balance peak in ways that Idra never did. How did Zerg go from weak to overpowered in WoL? Some of it was through patches...but most of it was through innovation in the meta-game. Innovation that Idra's attitude prevented him from spearheading, or indeed even staying abreast of. He was still making hydras until the end of WoL. He never seemed to master the art of roach pressure or understand some of the basic PvZ timings. You'd expect that somebody with such a track record would tread guardedly or not at all before opining on the meta-game in HotS. But the leopard hasn't changed his spots, and he's actually grown some more. And his limitations are being proven again as better and more innovative Zergs figure out how to solve problems that he only moans about. Compare his stream with those of Demuslim and Naniwa -- humble guys, who learn from their mistakes -- and it's no deep mystery why they're much better players. | ||
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Lowell
Germany346 Posts
On May 06 2013 04:42 Morlock wrote: How did Zerg go from weak to overpowered in WoL? Some of it was through patches...but most of it was through innovation in the meta-game. A lot of it was through patches and a lot of it was through maps. When Zerg was considered underpowered, they had 3 range roaches, 8 seconds low damage fungals, 3 range queens, warpgate was longer, voidrays were stronger, reaper speed was easier to get, barracks build times were lower, zealot build times were lower, stim research was faster etc, etc. And the favorite Zerg map was XelNaga Caverns, which was considered horribly Terran and Toss favored as soon as better maps came around. Granted, it took some time from mid 2011 to early 2012 until Infestor/Broodlord play was really popular, so these meta changes you're talking about did happen, but they took Zerg from being considered balanced to being considered too strong. Without Balance and especially without Map changes Zerg would've been considered weak through the entirety of WoL, regardless of meta changes. | ||
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Morlock
68 Posts
On May 06 2013 05:11 Lowell wrote: Sorry, I don't agree. You don't mention things like roaches originally cost only 1 supply...so Zerg had to be toned down as well as the other races. And Fruitdealer won an early tournament and NesTea was dominating all of them.Without Balance and especially without Map changes Zerg would've been considered weak through the entirety of WoL, regardless of meta changes. Idra attributed their success in tournaments to cheesy series play, timing attacks, etc. That was a respectable argument at the time, but he turned out to be a hypocrite. Protoss players were complaining about being forced to resort to "series play" for a whole year and Idra wasn't prepared to conclude that Protoss was weak. And this is happening again as Life, Leenock and others Zergs perform well tournaments at the very highest level, and Idra continues to explain their wins away by attributing them to "series play" or by pretending that the Zergs are "superhumans" whereas all the Terrans and Protoss are mere mortals. In hindsight we can see that Idra was a hypocrite whose bad attitude prevented him from finding solutions to problems that other players were constantly able to surmount. And he still hasn't learned his lesson. | ||
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Lowell
Germany346 Posts
On May 06 2013 05:34 Morlock wrote: Sorry, I don't agree. You don't mention things like roaches originally cost only 1 supply...so Zerg had to be toned down as well as the other races. And Fruitdealer won an early tournament and NesTea was dominating all of them. The only thing you mention is the Roaches cost 1 supply thing? That was beta. And it was considered OP as fuck (even Idra said so) and it got removed pre release. Yes fruitdealer and Nestea won some of the early Tournaments, but they were exceptions. Most tournaments were won by Terran and Protoss, the TvZ and PvZ winrates were favored against Zerg and the largest portion of Code S players were Terrans which led to the Expression GomTvT. Zerg wasn't considered unwinable but it was considered weak, pretty much the opposite of the end of WoL, were it was considered beatable, but way too strong. Edit: I just looked through all the balance changes from 2010 and 2011, the only significant Nerfs Zerg ever got were Ultralisk nerf (-5 dmg vs armored and the building attack bugfix) and the Neural Parasite change (-2 range). They got a shitton of buffs and the nerfs for Toss and Terran are too long to list. The largest portion of the Zerg dominance in mid 2012 and 2013 were balance and map changes. It wouldn't have been remotely possible in Vanilla WoL. | ||
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Morlock
68 Posts
On May 06 2013 05:58 Lowell wrote: You're wrong, and here's the graph to prove it.Yes fruitdealer and Nestea won some of the early Tournaments, but they were exceptions. Most tournaments were won by Terran and Protoss, the TvZ and PvZ winrates were favored against Zerg and the largest portion of Code S players were Terrans which led to the Expression GomTvT. Zerg wasn't considered unwinable but it was considered weak, pretty much the opposite of the end of WoL, were it was considered beatable, but way too strong. Zerg's win rate has always been ahead of Protoss's win rate, and for roughly half of WoL it was ahead of Terran's as well. That one is international. If you want GSL, here's a thread from late 2011 -- before Zerg started to dominate. You can see Zerg's win rate was only slightly below Terran's, and way ahead of Protoss's, even in early WoL. Zerg has won 8 GSLs; Terran has won 7 and Protoss 3. And Idra is nowhere near the level of a GSL-winner and always had room to improve and become #1 foreigner at any period in the game. I'm afraid that Idra doesn't have, and has never had, the proverbial leg to stand on. Zerg has never been the underpowered race. Repeat: ZERG HAS NEVER BEEN THE UNDERPOWERED RACE. It's simply a fantasy that Idra has spun to save his ego and maintain the delusion that he's superior to the "mere mortals" of Terran and Protoss. | ||
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Lowell
Germany346 Posts
On May 06 2013 06:12 Morlock wrote: You're wrong, and here's the graph to prove it. That is late 2011. The most significant balance changes already happened. And the maps were way better. Zerg wasn't considered weak anymore.Here's a graph that includes the time before that. Zerg's win rate has always been ahead of Protoss's win rate, and for roughly half of WoL it was ahead of Terran's as well. see above. You have a weird definition of always. You can see Zerg's win rate was only slightly below Terran's even in early WoL. Late 2011 isn't early in wol. It's the right in the middle and as I said Zerg weren't considered weak anymore. Zerg has won 8 GSLs; Terran has won 7 and Protoss 3. And by the end of 2011 23 Terrans, 8 Tosses and 9 Zergs had reached the Ro4 in the GSL. Which race won tournaments is a really bad indicator of balance, as only 1 really good player such as Nestea can skew the statistics by a lot. And Idra is nowhere near the level of a GSL-winner and always had room to improve and become #1 foreigner at any period in the game. Absolutely no question. Idra will always whine about balance no matter what, I'm just saying you're wrong when you say the Zerg journey from underpowered- to overpowered-consensus was even mostly a metagame development. ZERG HAS NEVER BEEN THE UNDERPOWERED RACE. BOLD AND CAPS GIVES STATEMENTS MORE MERIT, RIGHT?? Zerg was underpowered in the beginning of WoL, especially on the maps that were played back then. No amount of metagame development would've changed that. Once those changes occured, the last of which was the queen change, there was some development outside the actual game that ended in the Zerg dominance that was the end of WoL It's simply a fantasy that Idra has spun to save his ego and maintain the delusion that he's superior to the "mere mortals" of Terran and Protoss. Yes, Idras whining was without basis for most of WoL, but that's not what I'm discussing. | ||
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Morlock
68 Posts
On May 06 2013 06:36 Lowell wrote: Fair enough. I did not realize the beginning of that graph was late 2011. Maybe there was a slight balance problem back then.That is late 2011. The most significant balance changes already happened. And the maps were way better. Zerg wasn't considered weak anymore.Here's a graph that includes the time before that. But the fact is that this period you're whining about, when Zerg was ~10% behind Terran in win rate, Protoss had to endure repeatedly throughout WoL. And I don't buy your theory about maps causing the tide to shift. It seems unsupported and eccentric, to say the least (with the exception of Steppes of War and Scrap Station). Zerg isn't to be trifled with even on short rush-distance maps like Ohana. Most Zergs did not get the point about the insane cost effectiveness of roaches until they saw Stephano abuse it. I've seen an early WoL Xel'Naga Caverns game with Idra, ZvP, when he gave up after the Protoss took a third and refused to tech up to brood lords "because stalkers can blink underneath them". And that was typical of Idra back then. This speaks to a player who doesn't know what he's doing; not a player who can't win because the maps are biased against him. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On May 06 2013 06:58 Morlock wrote: And I don't buy your theory about maps causing the tide to shift. It seems unsupported and eccentric, to say the least (with the exception of Steppes of War and Scrap Station). Zerg isn't to be trifled with even on short rush-distance maps like Ohana. Most Zergs did not get the point about the insane cost effectiveness of roaches until they saw Stephano abuse it. I've seen an early WoL Xel'Naga Caverns game with Idra, ZvP, when he gave up after the Protoss took a third and refused to tech up to brood lords "because stalkers can blink underneath them". And that was typical of Idra back then. This speaks to a player who doesn't know what he's doing; not a player who can't win because the maps are biased against him. Ohana is only short rush distance in comparison to the other maps in the same pool. Compared to the maps at the start of SC2 (Steppes of War, Blistering Sands, Delta Quadrant, etc) Ohana would be considered long rush distance. | ||
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Lowell
Germany346 Posts
On May 06 2013 06:58 Morlock wrote: Fair enough. I did not realize the beginning of that graph was late 2011. Maybe there was a slight balance problem back then. But the fact is that this period you're whining about, when Zerg was ~10% behind Terran in win rate, Protoss had to endure repeatedly throughout WoL. And I don't buy your theory about maps causing the tide to shift. It seems unsupported and eccentric, to say the least (with the exception of Steppes of War and Scrap Station). Zerg isn't to be trifled with even on short rush-distance maps like Ohana. Most Zergs did not get the point about the insane cost effectiveness of roaches until they saw Stephano abuse it. I've seen an early WoL Xel'Naga Caverns game with Idra, ZvP, when he gave up after the Protoss took a third and refused to tech up to brood lords "because stalkers can blink underneath them". And that was typical of Idra back then. This speaks to a player who doesn't know what he's doing; not a player who can't win because the maps are biased against him. Roaches do not have 'insane cost effectiveness'. Stephanos 12 minute max push would've worked just as well with marauders or stalkers, it's the fact that he knew how to take a 4:20 third safely that made his build so good. And at the highest level there was nothing wrong with that build balance wise. The fact that you note Scrap Station as one of 2 bad map for Zerg is pretty funny, it was considered one of the best Zerg maps in 2010, as terrible for Zerg as it was. The only 'good' Zerg maps at that time were Metalopolis cross positions and (a little later) Taldarim Altar. Here's a list of maps that were horrible for Zerg in the GSL 1 - GSL 3 map pool: Blistering Sands (backdoor in main, small rush distance, impossible to take 3rd) Desert Oasis (was a terrible map altogether, hard to take 3rd and tiny main distance by air, most of the base could be sieged from lowground) Steppes of War (tiny rush distance, tiny map) Scrap Station (Hard to take 3rd, though mutas were pretty powerful so it was one of the better for z) Delta Quadrant (hard to take natural, ledge over the third, chokes) Lost temple (close spawns means you lose, ledge drop at natural means you lose) Metalopolis short spawn means you lose XNC (Tanks super strong, easy gold for terran, hard 3rd and 4th for Zerg) Jungle Basin (Terran can take middle base as 4th and deny every base for zerg) Shakuras Plataeu (close positions means you lose, cross positions are hard because tanks in the middle) Thats every map in the first 3 GSLs, except 2/3 positions of Metalopolis. Remember that you could still block the natural ramp on these maps. And Idra, well he was always a balance whiner and he will always be, he always blamed everybody for his losses, but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. And my thesis is not eccentric. Ohana is way better for Zerg than any of the maps played in 2010/early 2011. Honestly when have you started playing? I played Terran in 2010 and Toss in 2011 and among everyone it was basically accepted that Zerg was too weak on those early maps and before the infestor and roach change | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
On May 06 2013 03:10 kafkaesque wrote: I made the comparison once, I think it's appropriate here as well: IdrA is like the Willy Loman of Starcraft. Not because both are bald, but because after having had success in the past, both are now delusional about their ability, constantly badmouthing better men, completely lacking introspection, forever blaming outside influences for their own failure. No matter which play you watch, you do so with a sense of pity and while you hope things get better, in the back of your mind you know you're observing a lost cause. The only difference is that Willy Loman has a wife. idrA has a very attractive (or had I don't know if they broke up) girlfriend. idrA at one point was an absolute monster, so good that people didn't want to let him into foreign tournaments, of course he lost to NoNy in the TSL and I'm pretty sure a lot of people remembe Draco (partially because the guy quit and came back so much) more than idrA when it comes to ability. SC2 has not been kind to idrA, between him complaining the game takes "no skill" or that the game is "worse than BW" or that it is "luck based" or that "insert complaint explaining why there is a conspiracy that only prevents him from winning here." There were times that he did extraordinarily well, but those were a while ago, back when the level of play in sc2 at least seemed much lower. Honestly a lot of the time I think back to ClouD's goodbye from progaming blog and see a lot of similarities between the two of them and the gaps between their results. Both were incredible brood war players, and both would go long periods of time between showing strong signs of them being great players in sc2, then immidiately going dormant right after those signs showed up. EDIT: Lowell, FD was the first GSL champion. I understand that for a lot of foreign zergs things were hard, but to my memory Korean Zergs weren't having the same issues in all cases. | ||
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Ameisenmann
Albania296 Posts
And about Idra, it makes me kind of sad that he has this mindset right now, because I have no doubt he could be a great player otherwise. He just doesn't seem to be able to realize that it doesn't help in any way to blame everything on balance and think you're right and you're just losing because life is unfair. Nothing is gonna change that way. He doesn't even have to think the game is balanced, he should just try to work with how it is instead of giving up. I think as a pro player it's hard to not be terribly biased towards your race, but still most pros manage to maintain a kind of positive mindset. Not sure what's missing in Idras case. | ||
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Morlock
68 Posts
Okay...end of conversation, I think. You simply don't want to admit that Zerg players went so long while failing to determine (1) the insane cost effectiveness of roaches, popularized by Stephano (whence "Stephano roach"), (2) their ability to freely expand to 3 bases and mass queens without repercussion, (3) the fact that infestors are the best units in the game, and (4) the game-ending brood lord-infestor composition. Zergs, including Idra, didn't know about ANY of these absolutely crucial and pivotal strategies for the entire period they were behind in win rate. You say there's nothing wrong with roaches balance wise. Actually, even near the end of WoL...hell, even near the beginning of HotS...Life was winning games left and right with simple roach-ling. Even against HotS units. And despite the magical thinking that Zergs like Idra self-servingly try to encourage...he's no "superhuman" any more than the top Terrans and Protoss...and in WoL, when there were no widow mines to dodge, the pure roach-ling composition wasn't exactly oozing with its micro possibilities. Honestly when have you started playing? I played Terran in 2010 and Toss in 2011 and among everyone it was basically accepted that Zerg was too weak on those early maps and before the infestor and roach change I already said in my first post that Idra presented some legitimate points about early WoL balance. And the game wasn't balanced either near the end of WoL, when Zergs were winning every tournament. The fact is that (a) Zergs didn't know basic strategies and had plenty of room for improvement (which can't be said about late WoL Protoss players), and (b) even when they were at rock bottom...Protoss players had to endure that level of rock bottom (~10% behind in win rate) periodically since late 2011 EVEN DESPITE a level of innovation which was illustrated by no Zerg player save NesTea. | ||
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DDie
Brazil2369 Posts
under 15 minute = cheese over 15 minute = build order him actually being outplayed? nope. | ||
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CatNzHat
United States1599 Posts
On May 06 2013 02:30 lisward wrote: I think a lot of people have short fuses, regardless of intelligence. Smart people figure things out a lot more quickly, can see where things are going, so they tend to react to stimuli sometimes before it even happens, because they can see that it's going to happen. hence, smarter people have shorter fuses | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On May 06 2013 09:30 CatNzHat wrote: Smart people figure things out a lot more quickly, can see where things are going, so they tend to react to stimuli sometimes before it even happens, because they can see that it's going to happen. hence, smarter people have shorter fuses well, this was definitely the funniest post in this thread. As to the people who dont like Idra, has it occurred to you that he realized a while ago he wouldnt be a top player -- even among foreigners -- and simply embraced the role of 'bm king' sometime around late 2011 when he saw the wave of Koreans coming to foreign turneys to take all the money? Incontrol decided to be the friendly, caster personality and Idra took the evil, bm monster you all love to hate on. The only irony here is that back when Idra still played well in tournaments he would disparage people like Destiny who were pure entertainers from day 1. | ||
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[OGN]Remmy
United States1206 Posts
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