|
On April 23 2013 05:58 skeldark wrote:
Its a global online computer game. I don't understand why the country a player is born in, matters at all.
To point out this point. This matters a LOT right now, and the goal of WCS is to make it not matter as much. Right now Koreans have a huge advantage because they were born in Korea. They have an infrastructure and gaming culture that is able to find talented players and develop them in structured environments with coaches.
With the Koreans entering the NA tournament, they basically come in and take the money from our own scene without contributing anything themselves. Because Koreans take up all of the spots in NA tourneys at all levels, there's 0 chance for a similar structure in NA to evolve. There's no incentive for any up and comers to actually go all in and actually train all the time because they start out at a disadvantage and there's no way to actually catch up because you get to practice on the NA ladder. The highest-placing NA player is an immigrant who is lucky enough to have a very marketable personality and has a team that allows him to commit to practicing.
|
On April 23 2013 05:52 Bumblebee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 03:49 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On April 22 2013 14:43 rename wrote:On April 22 2013 08:24 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On April 22 2013 07:43 rename wrote:On April 22 2013 07:08 Swords wrote:On April 22 2013 06:58 rename wrote:On April 22 2013 06:44 Swords wrote:Scarlett got noticed because of her performance at IPL where she beat Bumblebee.Prime and then took a game of Oz in a really close series. The only reason she was able to participate in IPL was because she won a region locked IPL qualifier. She's a perfect example of why region lock is important and good for a developing scene. The only reason any of us know about Scarlett is because she won one of your so called "handouts". Suppy similarly did well in region locked qualifiers in order to get into the NA WCS championships, and won an all foreigner qualifier (with the exception of Dragon, Nara, and Daisy who all play for European teams) to get into ASUS ROG Summer 2012. These results led to him getting picked up by EG. Again, he was able to get make it into the scene via region locked, mostly foreigner qualifiers. Bly has been in the esports scene for years now. He made his name in WCIII and competed in WCG 2009 in China (I assume he made it by qualifying in a region-locked qualifier). He switched to SC2 after completing school and I due to his WCIII skills he was picked up by Acer. He's been around for years and competing on a high level for years, he didn't just come out of nowhere. EDIT: My favorite thing is how you cite Scarlett and Suppy's wins and then if you actually look at it almost all their actual tournament wins come from the region-locked, foreigner only events you've been bashing. This actually contradicts your previous arguement that its harder for foreigners to get into starcraft - since those two players actually received handouts which up&comer koreans dont have. There are also Korea region-locked qualifiers for these events, they get the same handouts, with a much bigger payoff if they make it big in Korea. My main argument though is that having WCS NA region locked would be a good thing for the scene as it allows for new Scarlett's and Suppy's to be exposed, get into team houses, and then do well at events with top Koreans. What bigger payoffs? Also what handouts - are you saying that up&coming koreans get some kind of benefit for playing with bunch of established korean pros in their "region locked" qualifiers - why are you against the same pros playing in NA/EU regions then? The region lock part is moot. The LAN part will eventually force the region lock anyway. Requiring some sort of residency documents instead of just "be present at the lan events" just screws with people who are in process of moving from one reagion or another. Higher salaries for the best of the best, more prize money - GSL has a larger purse than any other tournament - and significantly more glory. Are you joking? Every EG foreigner earns much more salary, prize money and glory compared to any korean with similar skill level. PS, im not saying that they dont deserve it - its a good thing they can actually make somewhat of a living without having to be the very best. I just havent seen anything to back up the "everybody from korea can devote 100% on the game EZ " claim. You're arguing a straw man. No one wants to be a dude who maybe wins some matches in Code A. Aspiring pro gamers want to be the best. And at the highest level, Korean players make more money from salary, endorsements and prize purse. It's not close. Even at the highest end of foreigner salaries - probably Stephano and Huk and Idra before renegotiation - they aren't making any more than half of what Flash makes, or what Moon made. And none of the foreign players have close to the level of exposure and brand recognition that Flash, Boxer, Nada, Jaedong and the other legendary Korean players have. The rewards for being at the top of the Korean scene are much, much greater than anywhere else. You're right and wrong at the same time. The very top of the Koreans do have some very neat salaries and stuff, but they're arguing more of a general sense of Korea and they do earn considerably less, if anything at all, than people on foreign teams.
I don't disagree with that. I'm responding specifically to challenges to this:
There are also Korea region-locked qualifiers for these events, they get the same handouts, with a much bigger payoff if they make it big in Korea.
For those that do become stars, the results can be incredible. For those that are just pretty good, yeah, people signed to western teams probably have more reward for their effort.
|
On April 23 2013 06:34 Branman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 05:58 skeldark wrote:
Its a global online computer game. I don't understand why the country a player is born in, matters at all.
To point out this point. This matters a LOT right now, and the goal of WCS is to make it not matter as much. Right now Koreans have a huge advantage because they were born in Korea. They have an infrastructure and gaming culture that is able to find talented players and develop them in structured environments with coaches. With the Koreans entering the NA tournament, they basically come in and take the money from our own scene without contributing anything themselves. Because Koreans take up all of the spots in NA tourneys at all levels, there's 0 chance for a similar structure in NA to evolve. There's no incentive for any up and comers to actually go all in and actually train all the time because they start out at a disadvantage and there's no way to actually catch up because you get to practice on the NA ladder. The highest-placing NA player is an immigrant who is lucky enough to have a very marketable personality and has a team that allows him to commit to practicing.
Well said
|
Concur. NA for North Americans, EU for European Union. Have two Korean WCS brackets if you need to. Whatever. I want to watch guys that speak my language play for something meaningful. And the rating bear out that everyone else agrees with me.
And yes, as discussed in this forum thread, the WCS has been poorly managed to this point. Dafuq.
+ Show Spoiler +
|
On April 23 2013 06:34 Branman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 05:58 skeldark wrote:
Its a global online computer game. I don't understand why the country a player is born in, matters at all.
With the Koreans entering the NA tournament, they basically come in and take the money from our own scene without contributing anything themselves.
They just MADE the game big, they MADE it to an esports title. SC would practically not exist without the korean scene.
So they didn't contribute they contributed EVERYTHING, in fact they created this "thing".
One part of the "thing" to me is, btw, to watch great games. Great games come from great gameplay on 2 sides, and to be honest, I haven't seen much from NA players, besides very few (but that wouldn't make me watch tournaments). So Koreans not only invented this "thing", made it BIG, they also bring more entertainment. That being said, the best player should get the money, not a poor player get it, because he lives in an area where the level of competition isn't that high.
Soccer Worldchampionship may be in a specific country, but all the best players in the world are there to give their best and to make the best games, therefore also bring the highest amount of entertainment (and i do not mena vuvuzelas) to the billions of viewers.
|
On April 23 2013 05:52 Elitios wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 05:47 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On April 23 2013 05:44 Elitios wrote:
It is kind of bad for the americas to be represented by koreans, but also maybe this will be a kick in the butt:
1.- if the koreans can get over lag issues to stomp NA players, that means that NA player can now train on KR server without lag being that big an issue. That will surely improve the level of top NA players.
2.-The koreans who belong to NA team should be encouraged to help their fellow NA players to improve (at least it seems to make sense), if it isn't the case, they belong to said team in name only, which is something to think about at least.
3.- you can't really blame the format, since no Korean also means that ratings will drop, so they had to have a system which allowed koreans to enter... The fact that it was so one sided, blizz could do nothing about.
4.- if there is such a skill gap, maybe it's better that it turns out that way since players that can't stand up to koreans have no place in the world champinship anyways.
5.- from what I saw, Na players didn't perform that badly, but they lack the decisiveness of koreans, so maybe this result will challenge them to crank it up in the next qualifier? I just want to address point 3. It's pretty common knowledge that Korean v Korean provides the worst ratings, and until MLG, WCS Europe had the highest viewer count of any tournament. Sure but I don't think that Catz vs Illusion (as an example) would attract the kind of audience WCS is needing either. I think we all agree that it needs to be koreans vs "foreigners". Which is my point. You can't apply quotas to tourneys, if you allow the koreans to enter, you must know that they will be doing their best to win...
No we don't all agree with that. Just look at the WCS EU last year, people like watching players from their own region compete with each other. That's the unique and enjoyable flavour that a tournament like WCS can bring. Sure i life watching tournaments like MLG where you see the best players from all over the world compete. The WCS let me watch the best players from each region compete and i thoroughly enjoyed that.
|
On April 23 2013 09:36 Rollora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 06:34 Branman wrote:On April 23 2013 05:58 skeldark wrote:
Its a global online computer game. I don't understand why the country a player is born in, matters at all.
With the Koreans entering the NA tournament, they basically come in and take the money from our own scene without contributing anything themselves. They just MADE the game big, they MADE it to an esports title. SC would practically not exist without the korean scene. So they didn't contribute they contributed EVERYTHING, in fact they created this "thing". One part of the "thing" to me is, btw, to watch great games. Great games come from great gameplay on 2 sides, and to be honest, I haven't seen much from NA players, besides very few (but that wouldn't make me watch tournaments). So Koreans not only invented this "thing", made it BIG, they also bring more entertainment. That being said, the best player should get the money, not a poor player get it, because he lives in an area where the level of competition isn't that high. Soccer Worldchampionship may be in a specific country, but all the best players in the world are there to give their best and to make the best games, therefore also bring the highest amount of entertainment (and i do not mena vuvuzelas) to the billions of viewers.
They made BW an esport, not SC2. SC2 is driven by the Western audience. Go check out the difference in attendance between Korean SC2 events and Western SC2 events.
Soccer is the opposite of the current WCS system. With soccer, we would only have South American and European teams playing for the championship.
|
Northern Ireland25441 Posts
On April 23 2013 09:41 ElBlanco wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 05:52 Elitios wrote:On April 23 2013 05:47 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On April 23 2013 05:44 Elitios wrote:
It is kind of bad for the americas to be represented by koreans, but also maybe this will be a kick in the butt:
1.- if the koreans can get over lag issues to stomp NA players, that means that NA player can now train on KR server without lag being that big an issue. That will surely improve the level of top NA players.
2.-The koreans who belong to NA team should be encouraged to help their fellow NA players to improve (at least it seems to make sense), if it isn't the case, they belong to said team in name only, which is something to think about at least.
3.- you can't really blame the format, since no Korean also means that ratings will drop, so they had to have a system which allowed koreans to enter... The fact that it was so one sided, blizz could do nothing about.
4.- if there is such a skill gap, maybe it's better that it turns out that way since players that can't stand up to koreans have no place in the world champinship anyways.
5.- from what I saw, Na players didn't perform that badly, but they lack the decisiveness of koreans, so maybe this result will challenge them to crank it up in the next qualifier? I just want to address point 3. It's pretty common knowledge that Korean v Korean provides the worst ratings, and until MLG, WCS Europe had the highest viewer count of any tournament. Sure but I don't think that Catz vs Illusion (as an example) would attract the kind of audience WCS is needing either. I think we all agree that it needs to be koreans vs "foreigners". Which is my point. You can't apply quotas to tourneys, if you allow the koreans to enter, you must know that they will be doing their best to win... No we don't all agree with that. Just look at the WCS EU last year, people like watching players from their own region compete with each other. That's the unique and enjoyable flavour that a tournament like WCS can bring. Sure i life watching tournaments like MLG where you see the best players from all over the world compete. The WCS let me watch the best players from each region compete and i thoroughly enjoyed that.
I think what people are forgetting to mention is that the game quality was pretty damn high at WCS EU as well. I mean we're not undiscerning in our tastes, there were a hell of a lot of good games to go alongside the players we know and love/hate as well/
|
If theres a season 2 next year... THEY WILL CHANGE THE RULES...
Honestly, they should follow Riot... LCS is the greatest Eports league. Koreans play with koreans, EU plays with EU, NA plays with NA. sucks for the other countires... but the NBA only happens in America and it's huge. Have 3 leagues. NA, Korea, EU.
If the koreans bitch about prize money, Too bad, get better. League of legends, China/Korea have the most talent but i don't see them crying over prize money from NA or EU. The NA and EU fans are the ones who drive the sales of the game. Blizzard just folllow suit.
|
I really dislike all the "We'll never catch up because they have an inherent advantage. Just keep them out of our money." sentiment. "They're stealing our money and it's destroying our scene!" If an individual player wins prize money, where does that money go to? If a Korean player wins money, does that money to go the "Korean scene?" If a NA player wins prize money, will he actually donate a substantial portion of it to build the NA scene? Will having a pool of generally much lower skill level players compete for the same amount of money that Korean and European WCS offer really drive people to practice more seriously?
Also, for the past two and a half years (excluding a few top players in KeSPA), decent western players have been getting much better salaries than Korean players of similar skills would receive. They also tend to have a lot more viewers on their streams and make pretty good income just from streaming. "But we've got mouths to feed here in America" really doesn't convince me. It seems to me that people want to continue their college education, receive high salary, make a good amount of income from streaming themselves occasionally having fun in custom games, AND earn substantial prize money while doing all that. Well, I suppose I would want that too for myself. It sounds great.
|
"Q: You are at a disadvantage not earning points from foreign tournaments.
A: It's not something we can do anything about. All we can do is clear our minds, and do the best in our given situation. I don't think about it as a disadvantage, I just try do the best from where I am."
-Flash
Americans need to stop whining about incentives. Greatness isn't something achieved with handouts, it's something fought for, tooth and nail.
|
On April 23 2013 06:34 Branman wrote:
With the Koreans entering the NA tournament, they basically come in and take the money from our own scene without contributing anything themselves. Because Koreans take up all of the spots in NA tourneys at all levels, there's 0 chance for a similar structure in NA to evolve. There's no incentive for any up and comers to actually go all in and actually train all the time because they start out at a disadvantage and there's no way to actually catch up because you get to practice on the NA ladder. The highest-placing NA player is an immigrant who is lucky enough to have a very marketable personality and has a team that allows him to commit to practicing.
I disagree, for at least three reasons.
First, numbers, Koreans currently have less than half (13/32) of the spots in premier (liquidpedia), and looking at the lower brackets for the premiere qualifier (remember 9th-40th place get invites--perhaps others will too, and I sorta doubt MLG/Blizz will invite more Koreans) means that Koreans will probably be in the minority for challenger league too. That is hardly "all of the spots in NA tourneys at all levels".
Second, building on the former reason, this season is the worst that it will be in terms of Korean advantage, because as time goes on the AM and EU events will be moved from online to the studios, making participation from Korean team houses impractical. Korean long-distance participation should only decrease over time. Combine that with the fact that Koreans aren't even the majority now. The current season's system is the worst it will get, and it will improve over time, assuming you don't mind Koreans residing in AM to play in AM (which I think is fair).
Third on taking "the money from our scene without contributing anything themselves", glance at what teams those Koreans in AM premier are on. Aside from Nestea, they are from EG, Liquid, Complexity, Axiom, Root...see the pattern? These are foreign teams. Aren't Korean players on foreign teams contributing to our teams (and thus to our scene)? Do we want to force our teams to always leave their Korean players in Korea? How will that help the Korean players contribute to their foreign teammates in AM/EU (which, by the way, will include the up-and-comers mentioned, because our teams are looking to and actively picking up new foreign talent as they find it)?
Long term, I should hope we want our teams here in our regions, especially with any of their Korean players who want to come. But we won't get them here any faster by banning them all at the start of season 1. Hence this gradual transition from "Korean (and other countries'!) players can play from home online a bit more this first season." to the eventual "Time to move to the EU/AM equivalents of Seoul (i.e. whatever city the studio and team houses end up in on each continent) so you can play offline as much as you are required if you want to compete in the global league."
I'm not claiming this was the best system; there are good arguments for alternatives. But the system we've been given is neither Korean theft nor the makings of the total Korean takeover the quoted poster describes.
|
TLADT24920 Posts
On April 23 2013 16:43 TiberiusAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 06:34 Branman wrote:
With the Koreans entering the NA tournament, they basically come in and take the money from our own scene without contributing anything themselves. Because Koreans take up all of the spots in NA tourneys at all levels, there's 0 chance for a similar structure in NA to evolve. There's no incentive for any up and comers to actually go all in and actually train all the time because they start out at a disadvantage and there's no way to actually catch up because you get to practice on the NA ladder. The highest-placing NA player is an immigrant who is lucky enough to have a very marketable personality and has a team that allows him to commit to practicing. I disagree, for at least three reasons. First, numbers, Koreans currently have less than half (13/32) of the spots in premier (liquidpedia), and looking at the lower brackets for the premiere qualifier (remember 9th-40th place get invites--perhaps others will too, and I sorta doubt MLG/Blizz will invite more Koreans) means that Koreans will probably be in the minority for challenger league too. That is hardly "all of the spots in NA tourneys at all levels". Second, building on the former reason, this season is the worst that it will be in terms of Korean advantage, because as time goes on the AM and EU events will be moved from online to the studios, making participation from Korean team houses impractical. Korean long-distance participation should only decrease over time. Combine that with the fact that Koreans aren't even the majority now. The current season's system is the worst it will get, and it will improve over time, assuming you don't mind Koreans residing in AM to play in AM (which I think is fair). Third on taking "the money from our scene without contributing anything themselves", glance at what teams those Koreans in AM premier are on. Aside from Nestea, they are from EG, Liquid, Complexity, Axiom, Root...see the pattern? These are foreign teams. Aren't Korean players on foreign teams contributing to our teams (and thus to our scene)? Do we want to force our teams to always leave their Korean players in Korea? How will that help the Korean players contribute to their foreign teammates in AM/EU (which, by the way, will include the up-and-comers mentioned, because our teams are looking to and actively picking up new foreign talent as they find it)? Long term, I should hope we want our teams here in our regions, especially with any of their Korean players who want to come. But we won't get them here any faster by banning them all at the start of season 1. Hence this gradual transition from "Korean (and other countries'!) players can play from home online a bit more this first season." to the eventual "Time to move to the EU/AM equivalents of Seoul (i.e. whatever city the studio and team houses end up in on each continent) so you can play offline as much as you are required if you want to compete in the global league." I'm not claiming this was the best system; there are good arguments for alternatives. But the system we've been given is neither Korean theft nor the makings of the total Korean takeover the quoted poster describes.
you make some good points. I'm inclined to agree. I think main concerns seem to be that these Koreans will settle back into the Korean scene since most don't reside in NA however majority are on foreign teams so to deny them participation based on where they are from isn't right. Hopefully some will reside here eventually and in turn bring up the skill level as time passes 
|
On April 21 2013 13:23 Superiorwolf wrote:
Go NA!
Huehuehuehue
4 Koreans on the first day does seem ominous :D
|
China6329 Posts
On April 23 2013 19:02 Nekovivie wrote:Huehuehuehue 4 Koreans on the first day does seem ominous :D
The fact is Koreans take all 8 spots, the last 4 foreign survivors are 3 Chinese and 1 UK (Demu).
|
I don't understand why there's so many people that want to see Starcraft 2 declining, by allowing koreans to continue their dominance. It'll take a while longer until even the most vocal community members will understand that the lack of foreign players is hurting the growth of Starcraft 2 E-Sports on the big scale. Yet the vocal community members don't quite realise that their not producing the numbers, that are needed for growth, it's the casual players. They need to be drawn into the scene (few as they might be, due to Blizzards 20th century business model) to make it bigger, but right now the generation of players that bought HOTS are being lost, because everything about WCS has been the biggest joke in E-Sports so far. The production value is an insult. When these potential fans have finally lost their interest in the game, because they're not been offered good experiences like WCS Europe finals or MLG / RIOT like production values, they're just gone forever. So next try is Legacy of the void. Maybe then Blizzard, tournament organizers and vocal community figures have figured out that everything about this WCS model is going to make the game decline.
But maybe by then teams and players have figured out how to actually be good at the game. There's nothing genetic about koreans, that makes them better players. It's willpower and infrastructure. Remember how TB got insulted for calling the EG Lair what it was then and is at this moment, a frat house? Well, how did that turn out, with EG now having to build another house that is actually supposed to be used for training?
Yet casual viewers don't actually need foreign players on the same level as koreans to be excited for national leagues, just look at sports in general, where national leagues are sustainable business models. There's nothing wrong about a exclusively north american league. Germany has one, which still exists, despite suffering from horrible production value and marketing.
So imagine a world, where foreigners actually develope the willpower to be good at this game, so they'll actually be able to beat koreans. Then SC2 is going to explode, but up until then we need a sustainable national league system with production value to draw in the casuals that make for the big numbers and growth. Oh and Blizzard need to arrive in the 21st century.
|
While I don't give a damn if all of the players are Korean in MLG/Dreamhack and GSL in WCS it matters a lot.
I would have like to see the WCS become like the World Cup Soccer.
It's fun to see Brazil vs Nigeria or Germany vs Japan.
This is one of the tournamets I want to see different nationalities.
In order for SC2 be accepted like sports there has to be nationalities. European Championships, Asian Championships and so on.
But yeah for GSL/Dreamhack/MLG and so on nationality is irrelevant.
|
On April 23 2013 09:34 dirtydurb82 wrote:Concur. NA for North Americans, EU for European Union. Have two Korean WCS brackets if you need to. Whatever. I want to watch guys that speak my language play for something meaningful. And the rating bear out that everyone else agrees with me. And yes, as discussed in this forum thread, the WCS has been poorly managed to this point. Dafuq. + Show Spoiler +
What rating?
|
Don't worry everybody blizzard says this is great for the NA scene and with their great history in putting the competitive scene ahead of their own financial gain were just gonna have to take their word for it.
|
On April 23 2013 10:07 Branman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 09:36 Rollora wrote:On April 23 2013 06:34 Branman wrote:On April 23 2013 05:58 skeldark wrote:
Its a global online computer game. I don't understand why the country a player is born in, matters at all.
With the Koreans entering the NA tournament, they basically come in and take the money from our own scene without contributing anything themselves. They just MADE the game big, they MADE it to an esports title. SC would practically not exist without the korean scene. So they didn't contribute they contributed EVERYTHING, in fact they created this "thing". One part of the "thing" to me is, btw, to watch great games. Great games come from great gameplay on 2 sides, and to be honest, I haven't seen much from NA players, besides very few (but that wouldn't make me watch tournaments). So Koreans not only invented this "thing", made it BIG, they also bring more entertainment. That being said, the best player should get the money, not a poor player get it, because he lives in an area where the level of competition isn't that high. Soccer Worldchampionship may be in a specific country, but all the best players in the world are there to give their best and to make the best games, therefore also bring the highest amount of entertainment (and i do not mena vuvuzelas) to the billions of viewers. They made BW an esport, not SC2. SC2 is driven by the Western audience. Go check out the difference in attendance between Korean SC2 events and Western SC2 events. Soccer is the opposite of the current WCS system. With soccer, we would only have South American and European teams playing for the championship.
Well if it wasn't for the Koreans, SC2 wouldn't have ever been that big as it is right now, we saw that in tons of devblogs, making ofs etc that the focus so much on the esport bc of the Koreans.
No Koreans no SC2 how we have it today, no SC2 scene outside of Korea
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
