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On April 22 2013 04:40 FXOkaRmy wrote:
Wooot have a qualifier for NA and only koreans make it. Good job WCS you're really boosting the NA scene!
QQ less. Practice more, get involved in a house, live the same life koreans live (or find an opportunity to go there) and youll improve. Whining wont make someone improve, ever.
Id rather see the top grand finals be the 32 best players in the world. Regardless of race.
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The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
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QQ less. Practice more, get involved in a house, live the same life koreans live (or find an opportunity to go there) and youll improve. Whining wont make someone improve, ever.
Id rather see the top grand finals be the 32 best players in the world. Regardless of race.
No one is going to drop out of college to have a chance at playing starcraft professionally, which is why most potential NA talent won't commit to the game.
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Scotland112 Posts
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On top of all Koreans not 1 zerg that's 0 in EU or NA so far are we having fun yet?
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On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote:
The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few)
Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT:
So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC.
Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
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On April 22 2013 05:00 Malpractice.248 wrote:
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
Overall its just a f*in videogame. You dont want to commit or waste your life fully to that. Maybe koreans can, cause they got esprt as a popular and accepted thing there. But in our western region your just a nerd without money and not a sportstar 
And i dont think you represent the majority with your opinion of seeing the best players play it out. SC2 would be as small as SC1 if that was the fact. Its also about personality, foreigners vs koreans, drama etc that make games interesting and popular. Starcraft in pureform without these things will never get out of a niche.
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On April 22 2013 05:00 Malpractice.248 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote:
The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns." Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc. They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic. Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea) I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it. EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine. League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league? Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
Arent koreans already winning everything they enter in league too?
And even if Curse Gaming puts in 8-10 hours every day, if rest of the US teams slack off - Curse will also suffer since they will have to play against weaker opponents all the time.
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On April 22 2013 05:00 Malpractice.248 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote:
The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns." Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc. They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic. Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea) I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it. EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine. League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league? Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea.
To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd.
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It's really hard developing same enviroment. It won't happen in this game.
In real sports changes happen over the course of many years. We need something much more drastic to bring foreigners up to speed. And most likely we need new foreigners to take up the fight, not the current elite. That however won't happen as there's barely any incentive to train in more diffucult conditions against better structured scene.
We need more separation [for instance, residency] and much more time. That's very hard to achieve as it isn't very good business. We need to face the fact, that rising new talent like in real sports isn't economic in e-sports, as it oft times takes more time than the life span of the game.
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On April 22 2013 05:21 Swords wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 05:00 Malpractice.248 wrote:On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote:
The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns." Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc. They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic. Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea) I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it. EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine. League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league? Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough. How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea. To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd.
There are tons of Koreans who never had any success although they trained their asses off 24/7 for years in teamhouses, do you see them crying about the fact that there are people better than them grabbing all the moneys ? I guess not and thats probably a cultural thing, if you are worse than someone else you dont deserve to win, its simple as that.
Edit: Only a really low amount of korean pros actualy get a sallary besides beeing able to stay at the teamhouse.
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On April 22 2013 05:13 azzih wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 05:00 Malpractice.248 wrote:
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
Overall its just a f*in videogame. You dont want to commit or waste your life fully to that. Maybe koreans can, cause they got esprt as a popular and accepted thing there. But in our western region your just a nerd without money and not a sportstar And i dont think you represent the majority with your opinion of seeing the best players play it out. SC2 would be as small as SC1 if that was the fact. Its also about personality, foreigners vs koreans, drama etc that make games interesting and popular. Starcraft in pureform without these things will never get out of a niche.
No. I disagree. Completely.
1) They have opportunities to make money here. Look at Voyboy, or theOddOne, examples.
Twitch pays you 1$ for every 500 viewers you show a commercial to.
They average 30-40k (when LCS isnt on) viewers.
Play 3 commercials an hour, and you now have like what, 120$/hour?
Ontop of free living, traveling the world etc. AND tournament winnings.
2) You wouldnt waste your life fully to that. Some people go to the military for 4 years, and it doesnt help them after that. Others go to college, drop out, then go back a few years later when they mature. Its about walks of life. Youre not LOSING your life because you spend 4 years "going pro". You still can have a bit of a life outside of gaming. I can tell you for a fact, at IPL, some of the players had groupies. So, they are "sportsstarish" out here.
3) I dont think i represent the minority. Sc1 was small, due to technology, the community, culture. The western world wasnt into "esports" like it is now. The technology wasnt there to support it. The world wasnt revolved 100% around computers like it is now. Theres still drama. Will stephano defeat X korean? How will Scarlett do in GSTL? Is Huk coming back? Will Idra rage this game?
The players have to step up and win to create drama. Not be handed 150k for being not nearly as good as those who sat out in korea.
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On April 22 2013 05:20 rename wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 05:00 Malpractice.248 wrote:On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote:
The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns." Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc. They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic. Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea) I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it. EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine. League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league? Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough. Arent koreans already winning everything they enter in league too? And even if Curse Gaming puts in 8-10 hours every day, if rest of the US teams slack off - Curse will also suffer since they will have to play against weaker opponents all the time.
Riot threw enough money at everyone to put all the teams in centralized locations. WCS isn't like that yet. Even with infrastructure aside, Seoul is a big enough advantage that it's like cheating, in the words of Artosis.
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I predicted this would happen. Koreans were always going to participate in the NA Regionals because it is easier than the Korean one, and the EU one is too laggy from Korea.
WCS needs to decide what the point of having Regional Qualifiers actually is. Are these Regional winners supposed to be people actually representing a Region of the globe or not? The last WCS was a success because it was like the World Cup of Starcraft 2. Obviously some Regions are weaker but all Regions were actually represented which brought more interest. It is something for WCS to think about.
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On April 22 2013 05:32 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 05:20 rename wrote:On April 22 2013 05:00 Malpractice.248 wrote:On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote:
The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns." Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc. They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic. Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea) I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it. EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine. League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league? Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough. Arent koreans already winning everything they enter in league too? And even if Curse Gaming puts in 8-10 hours every day, if rest of the US teams slack off - Curse will also suffer since they will have to play against weaker opponents all the time. Riot threw enough money at everyone to put all the teams in centralized locations. WCS isn't like that yet. Even with infrastructure aside, Seoul is a big enough advantage that it's like cheating, in the words of Artosis.
Then why did jinro fail *(sorry jinro, you had a good run)
Or Naniwa? Major? Idra? Stephano? Sheth? Thorzain?
The only one to consistantly do well, for a extended period, was Huk.
I know theres more im missing some. But why is this? They are sent there, givent he same environment, stay there for extended periods -- but dont really take in the culture and lifestyle, and ultimately fail.
Why didnt they go to Europe? because europeans are better. Why arent we raging that koreans were in their tourney, or that they got INVITED as well?
Why dont we rage for the GSL slots taken by Not even Code A worthy americans get sent over there cuz of a MLG win, and get stomped? Taking away the potential for someone IN THEIR SCENE TO GROW WITHIN THEIR SCENE OMG
Its the same thing. Theres not even that many koreans in the bracket.
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On April 22 2013 05:21 Swords wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 05:00 Malpractice.248 wrote:On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote:
The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns." Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc. They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic. Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea) I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it. EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine. League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league? Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough. How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea. To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd.
How many people arent in college, living paycheck to paycheck, not really saving money, hoping to go back soon?
Or just not going yet?
Or graduated yet have no job?
Or go into military for 4 years, getting nothing out of it.
They arent throwing away their lives by going "ima dedicate myself for a year, in a house, where they PAY MY WAY, and see if i have a shot"
People take a year off ALL the time. This wouldnt risk anything long term.
You can keep spitting out NA qualifier, and emphasizing NA, but its for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP.
They should have named regions Purple Blue and Pink for all i care. Its a server. And if someone wants to come to this server to play, gl hf.
Why arent you guys raging that chinese are trying to play, instead of them playing in KR?
Instead, youre raging THEY DIDNT GET TO PLAY OMG SOME DIAMOND GOT THE SPOT.
Seriously? Use some common sense.
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On April 22 2013 05:28 gaymon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 05:21 Swords wrote:On April 22 2013 05:00 Malpractice.248 wrote:On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote:
The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns." Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc. They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic. Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea) I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it. EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine. League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league? Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough. How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea. To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd. There are tons of Koreans who never had any success although they trained their asses off 24/7 for years in teamhouses, do you see them crying about the fact that there are people better than them grabbing all the moneys ? I guess not and thats probably a cultural thing, if you are worse than someone else you dont deserve to win, its simple as that. Edit: Only a really low amount of korean pros actualy get a sallary besides beeing able to stay at the teamhouse.
It is a cultural thing, but it isn't that Koreans just work harder than foreigners - they actually have incentive to. Look at Boxer, he's dating a movie star, he's revered in Korea, he appears on billboards. There's actually a reason to try to be the best at starcraft. I don't see IdrA or HuK appearing on TV or anything like that. It's the same way how in America lots of kids see Kobe Bryant or Lebron James on TV and think "someday that could be me" and work their asses off playing basketball to try and get into the nba, even though they aren't necessarily paid for it and most people don't actually make it.
Very few people in America look at IdrA, Catz, HuK, etc. and think "I want that to be me someday". In order to build a scene you need to give people real incentive to practice, and in this case that incentive has to be money because I don't see any top NA players becoming a household name anytime soon.
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On April 22 2013 05:47 Malpractice.248 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 05:21 Swords wrote:On April 22 2013 05:00 Malpractice.248 wrote:On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote:
The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns." Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc. They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic. Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea) I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it. EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine. League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league? Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough. How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea. To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd. How many people arent in college, living paycheck to paycheck, not really saving money, hoping to go back soon? Or just not going yet? Or graduated yet have no job? Or go into military for 4 years, getting nothing out of it. They arent throwing away their lives by going "ima dedicate myself for a year, in a house, where they PAY MY WAY, and see if i have a shot" People take a year off ALL the time. This wouldnt risk anything long term. You can keep spitting out NA qualifier, and emphasizing NA, but its for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. They should have named regions Purple Blue and Pink for all i care. Its a server. And if someone wants to come to this server to play, gl hf. Why arent you guys raging that chinese are trying to play, instead of them playing in KR? Instead, youre raging THEY DIDNT GET TO PLAY OMG SOME DIAMOND GOT THE SPOT. Seriously? Use some common sense.
You've got to be kidding if you think people living paycheck to paycheck or just graduated and have no job can afford to take a year off to play Starcraft 2.
You have to be pretty privileged, or not seen much of the world if you think just anyone out there can take a year off to play starcraft.
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On April 21 2013 13:23 NovemberstOrm wrote:
oz not alive :O
Oz is dead?!?!!?
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On April 22 2013 05:52 Swords wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 05:47 Malpractice.248 wrote:On April 22 2013 05:21 Swords wrote:On April 22 2013 05:00 Malpractice.248 wrote:On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote:
The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns." Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc. They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic. Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea) I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it. EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine. League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league? Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough. How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea. To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd. How many people arent in college, living paycheck to paycheck, not really saving money, hoping to go back soon? Or just not going yet? Or graduated yet have no job? Or go into military for 4 years, getting nothing out of it. They arent throwing away their lives by going "ima dedicate myself for a year, in a house, where they PAY MY WAY, and see if i have a shot" People take a year off ALL the time. This wouldnt risk anything long term. You can keep spitting out NA qualifier, and emphasizing NA, but its for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. They should have named regions Purple Blue and Pink for all i care. Its a server. And if someone wants to come to this server to play, gl hf. Why arent you guys raging that chinese are trying to play, instead of them playing in KR? Instead, youre raging THEY DIDNT GET TO PLAY OMG SOME DIAMOND GOT THE SPOT. Seriously? Use some common sense. You've got to be kidding if you think people living paycheck to paycheck or just graduated and have no job can afford to take a year off to play Starcraft 2. You have to be pretty privileged, or not seen much of the world if you think just anyone out there can take a year off to play starcraft.
Do you think anyone living in a team house pays rent?
Or do they have sponsors that pay for it?
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EPT
