On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
No it fucking isn't for god sake.
Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after ti we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final.
So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments.
No....youre wrong. So completely wrong You arent getting my freakin point. WCS: NA = 5 Seeds WCS: KR = 5 Seeds Although 5=5 may look like balance. IT ISNT. Am I complaining that there's a WCS:NA? NO. So dont bring that up. In the Seasons Finals and Blizzcon, by equating the seeds for each region, you're dropping off the level of competition. Tell me that a 5th place WCS:KR player is equivalent in skill to a 5th place of a WCS: EU Player. WCS: Korea or...might as well call it WCS: Asia CLEARLY deserves some sort of advantage or perks because it's the most competitive BY FAR. But there isnt. A Flash or a Rain = Goody? Thorzain?? Dont make me laugh.
Again stressing my point: MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS HAS A INVERT RELATIONHIP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION IN THE SEASON FINALS.
Gosh you drive me to despair.
5 spots from WCS KR with only KR players 5 spots from WCS KR with half KR / half NA players 5 spots from WCS EU with mostly EU players and MVP.
You're honestly telling me viOlet, Polt, Ryung, HerO, Taeja et al can't get the top 5 in WCS NA every season lol?
Alex Raymond @ClarityShew That $300 for 1st in WCS challenger league is gonna be the hardest $300 i'm ever gonna work for
thaz guy needs to remember that if he gets 1st in challenge league he will have a spot in prem league which gives atleast 1,5k dollar even without winning a map,
I like that Blizzard is supporting their game but on the other hand i feel like they are diminishing the GSL/OSL to mere point grabs? i feel that when some one in BW was a golden mouse winner that stood for something, and not anymore.
edit: i wish they had kept each region to either nationality or where they are living, so like polt in America i have no issues with.
On April 17 2013 01:42 PixelNite wrote: Haha all the koreans complaining about it on Twitter ... Wouldn't have mind Korea to have a bigger pricepool since it's the hardest league.
If Koreans are the best, then they shouldn't worry about the prize pool as they will have the opportunity to win the season finals. If they are worried about being upset by non-koreans, then they should be complaining.
They were forced into this dumb World Cup-like tournament because the GSL was taken away from them and now they get a lower prize pool up-front. I think they have the right to complain. They have to do more work to win a similar amount of money and they have 1 less season a year. I doubt they're worried about being upset by non-Koreans but rather the Koreans that they have to beat twice just to get a decent payout compared to the old GSL.
No, they don't have a right to complain. Assuming that the Koreans take 1-5th place in the regional finals
Old System 1st: $46,827 2nd:$18,731 3-4: $4,683 5-8: $2,810
The WCS will kill eSF teams unless 5 eSF team players get top spots every time. The Korean scene was already struggling but this doesn't help at all. I'm all for cultivating other scenes but why did they have to take from the Korean scene in the process?
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
This! Millenium manager llewellis said that this acer team cup is the first step to a team league in Europe. I would be so hyped about that.
On April 17 2013 01:55 Grettin wrote: I like this comment on Twitter.
Alex Raymond @ClarityShew That $300 for 1st in WCS challenger league is gonna be the hardest $300 i'm ever gonna work for
thaz guy needs to remember that if he gets 1st in challenge league he will have a spot in prem league which gives atleast 1,5k dollar even without winning a map,
Sure, but the toughness of the challenger league itself is going to be hard to get that 1st place. Thats more or less the point. Does all that motivate you to try to get trough all the others and get to the next league?
On April 17 2013 01:42 PixelNite wrote: Haha all the koreans complaining about it on Twitter ... Wouldn't have mind Korea to have a bigger pricepool since it's the hardest league.
They lost 1 whole season of separate GSL = 160k One separate OSL = 96k Old format WCS Korea/Asia/Finals = 26.5k + 43.2k ( top8 ) + 156k ( top 3) = 225k 3 WCS Code S seasons have 25k in prize money compared to last year GSL'ls = 75k
Total 556k money gone from tournaments that are in korea, or are seeded based on KR tournaments.
So lets see what they have gained. 3 Global finals ( lets assume they take top4 spots every time) : 240k 1 blizzcon final ( lets assume they will take top8 ) : 210k
Total 450k new WCS money - so yeah, those global weekend tourneys dont compensate for the damage done to GSL.
Still kind of baffled where the hell Blizzard came up with the " we are putting 3x more money in this year" statement.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
Lol do you know how much fucking money it would cost for a whole Korean team house to relocate to EU/NA? This system is kind of really bad from what I can make sense of it. The seeding into the finals is a joke at 5-5 considering the top 30 Koreans could all easily beat the 4-5th place NA/EU players. Then new players into the next season is what 8 for EU/NA and 22 for Korea? What in the literal fuck?
So the place with the highest level of competition they bottle neck at the top end, and the place in the most need of new faces/talent they bottle neck at the low end.... Seriously am I missing something here? Please tell me I've missed something because if not that is fucking stupid and just killed all the hype I really had for WCS...
Well, moving team houses from Korea to NA/EU is literally Blizzard's goal. Go listen to their interviews on the WCS system. Based on the NA sign up list, it seems to be working. Next year when the whole league is offline, EG, TL, Axiom, and Quantic all have to either forfeit their NA spots and start over in Code B or move to NA.
Lol joke prize pool for GSL. 20k for first?! Win more winning an mlg now. What a horrible system blizzard put in place. All for the chance to give charity money to foreigners for putting in less work. At least in EU, since lag from kr to eu makes it unfeasible for most koreans to play in. At least koreans should dominate wcs NA.
If blizzard wants to give foreigners money so bad, they should just hold a lottery instead of going through this sham. I wouldn't have a problem with region locking and would encourage it, if the non kr leagues had 33% of the prize pool compared to the kr league. No other sports league in the world rewards lesser players with equal prize pools or salaries, etc.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man.
On April 17 2013 01:55 Grettin wrote: I like this comment on Twitter.
Alex Raymond @ClarityShew That $300 for 1st in WCS challenger league is gonna be the hardest $300 i'm ever gonna work for
thaz guy needs to remember that if he gets 1st in challenge league he will have a spot in prem league which gives atleast 1,5k dollar even without winning a map,
Sure, but the toughness of the challenger league itself is going to be hard to get that 1st place. Thats more or less the point. Does all that motivate you to try to get trough all the others and get to the next league?
Aren't 8th place in challenger league getting the same money? And they get to play in RO32 also.
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
No it fucking isn't for god sake.
Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after ti we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final.
So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments.
No....youre wrong. So completely wrong You arent getting my freakin point. WCS: NA = 5 Seeds WCS: KR = 5 Seeds Although 5=5 may look like balance. IT ISNT. Am I complaining that there's a WCS:NA? NO. So dont bring that up. In the Seasons Finals and Blizzcon, by equating the seeds for each region, you're dropping off the level of competition. Tell me that a 5th place WCS:KR player is equivalent in skill to a 5th place of a WCS: EU Player. WCS: Korea or...might as well call it WCS: Asia CLEARLY deserves some sort of advantage or perks because it's the most competitive BY FAR. But there isnt. A Flash or a Rain = Goody? Thorzain?? Dont make me laugh.
Again stressing my point: MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS HAS A INVERT RELATIONHIP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION IN THE SEASON FINALS.
Gosh you drive me to despair.
5 spots from WCS KR with only KR players 5 spots from WCS KR with half KR / half NA players 5 spots from WCS EU with mostly EU players and MVP.
You're honestly telling me viOlet, Polt, Ryung, HerO, Taeja can't get the top 5 in WCS NA every season lol?
I think you should follow the 6 pages of the thread. I've spoke about this issue. Again: BIgger gainers: koreans in foreigner teams; Why? - Flexibility - Easier region - still with same prize pool
Gainers: NA + Eu players. Why? - They have their own region - They have a league (at least EU) that deters koreans from joining and has a pretty good prize pool for not having them around
Bigger losers: Koreans in korean teams Why? - No flexibility - Harder Region - Still with same prize pool as other nations - Lowered prize pool
The Season Finals = Good or bad?
Pros: - likelihood of more representatives of other nations
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
Like it is currently if a team wants to move to korea? Why should it be made easier? If its a *regional* league, I expect regional players. Want the money? Get here and play for it.
Ah an offline team league.. where should it be? Europe`? Where? Teams have players all over europa and they had to relocate. US? Even bigger and more complicated (if you are an european team). Without lots of cash invested (I would guess european or NA players would rightfully don't like to live in some small shitty home with bunkbeds when you can stay in your own country and make enough from streaming) this is not going to happen. There is no huge center like seoul, so this is not possible.
On April 17 2013 02:04 Clefairy wrote: The WCS will kill eSF teams unless 5 eSF team players get top spots every time. The Korean scene was already struggling but this doesn't help at all. I'm all for cultivating other scenes but why did they have to take from the Korean scene in the process?
Because with the exception of LG-IM and to a lesser extend StarTale the other eSF teams are a joke?
Every Kespa team, with the exception of T8 has the backing of a multi million dollar company in their name. Most eSF teams don't even have 3 sponsors.
On April 17 2013 01:42 PixelNite wrote: Haha all the koreans complaining about it on Twitter ... Wouldn't have mind Korea to have a bigger pricepool since it's the hardest league.
If Koreans are the best, then they shouldn't worry about the prize pool as they will have the opportunity to win the season finals. If they are worried about being upset by non-koreans, then they should be complaining.
They were forced into this dumb World Cup-like tournament because the GSL was taken away from them and now they get a lower prize pool up-front. I think they have the right to complain. They have to do more work to win a similar amount of money and they have 1 less season a year. I doubt they're worried about being upset by non-Koreans but rather the Koreans that they have to beat twice just to get a decent payout compared to the old GSL.
No, they don't have a right to complain. Assuming that the Koreans take 1-5th place in the regional finals
Old System 1st: $46,827 2nd:$18,731 3-4: $4,683 5-8: $2,810
So, if the GSL champion gets 1st or 2nd in the regional finals, then he will win more money than in the previous system.
If the GSL runner up gets 5th in the regional finals, then he will win more money than in the previous system.
GSL semifinalists will win more money in the new system.
Every other GSL placing player will win more money in the new system.
The only chance of winning less money than in the previous system exists for the GSL champion.
Each 2 tournaments pays slightly more for the top placers excluding the GSL champion (in most cases excluding back to back wins) after doing more work, but that's at the cost of an entire season of prize money.
On April 17 2013 02:04 Clefairy wrote: The WCS will kill eSF teams unless 5 eSF team players get top spots every time. The Korean scene was already struggling but this doesn't help at all. I'm all for cultivating other scenes but why did they have to take from the Korean scene in the process?
Because with the exception of LG-IM and to a lesser extend StarTale the other eSF teams are a joke?
Every Kespa team, with the exception of T8 has the backing of a multi million dollar company in their name. Most eSF teams don't even have 3 sponsors.
Yeah that's what I meant. It will get incredibly difficult to get sponsors for most eSF teams now, and they will inevitably have to disband feeding public perception in Korea that Starcraft 2 is a failure, which isn't good for the scene at all. The Korean scene is being sacrificed for the others.
On April 17 2013 01:55 Grettin wrote: I like this comment on Twitter.
Alex Raymond @ClarityShew That $300 for 1st in WCS challenger league is gonna be the hardest $300 i'm ever gonna work for
thaz guy needs to remember that if he gets 1st in challenge league he will have a spot in prem league which gives atleast 1,5k dollar even without winning a map,
Sure, but the toughness of the challenger league itself is going to be hard to get that 1st place. Thats more or less the point. Does all that motivate you to try to get trough all the others and get to the next league?
Aren't 8th place in challenger league getting the same money? And they get to play in RO32 also.
Good point, you're right. But still, it's going to be tough road, i'd assume.
EPT
