The 2013 World Championship Series Premier League Prize Pool consists of $1.6 million spread out over the course of the year. Regional WCS league seasons will each include $100,000 in prize money to be distributed among players, while an additional $150,000 will be allocated for each Cross-Region Season Finals event. Finally, $250,000 will be awarded to competitors in the 2013 WCS Global Finals, held at BlizzCon in November.
The prize pool distribution for each Regional League and Cross-Region Season Finals that will be held this year, as well as the distribution for the BlizzCon WCS Global Finals, is listed below. The prize for Regional Leagues was designed to be relatively flat to reward the accomplishments of all participating players.
You may notice that prize pools gradually take on more top-heavy forms for Cross-Region Season Finals and the WCS Global Finals, though all participating players will still take home a share of the prize money. This was done in order to greatly reward those players who show the absolute best performance over the course of the season, and year. Additionally, we feel that the player pool is much smaller and the competition more fierce at these events, thus deserving a greater reward.
Point System Breakdown
A major component to the new World Championship Series is the point system, which will be used for determining which 16 players will be invited to the WCS Global Finals held following the conclusion of the final WCS Season each year.
Our primary goal for the point system was to design it in such a way that it rewarded players who are the most consistent in their performance at WCS events throughout the year. In order to achieve this, we intentionally balanced the amount of points earned from each event so that top performers wouldn’t be favored so heavily that further 2013 competition becomes negligible for other players. We also feel that this design will help to retain lively and intense competition from season to season as players battle to defend and improve their point ranking—even those who rise victorious from Season Final events. All Challenger and Premier League players in a particular WCS season will be rewarded a set number of points based on their performance, with the exception of WCS Korea, in which only the top 40 Challenger League players will be awarded points.
Some events outside of the WCS will also award points that count toward this system. In order to qualify as a point-rewarding non-WCS tournament, any given event will need to go through a formal approval process with the Blizzard eSports team. From there, non-WCS events will be split into one of two point tiers based on a few eligibility criteria that we’ll be announcing at a later date.
Really impressed at the prize distribution. I think that'll really help some up and comers, imagine how happy Bunny is now! Finally makes his name in the qualifier yesterday and now finds he's $1.5k richer, even if he doesn't win another map!
EDIT: Unless I'm REALLY blind I couldn't see a thread for this anywhere but if there was by all means delete this.
Cons: - They took away the prestige of GSL/OSL further by completely depleting the prize pool for 1st/2nd place. Winner receiving 20k is like nothing compared to last year... - Seasons Finals: 5/5/5 +1 format. It should have been biased more towards Korea than Europe/America Maybe something like 4/4/7+Parting, and then the next season: 4/4/8
5/5/5 +1 format is setting up for some cannon fodder for players like Life/Parting/Innovation/Flash against some of the lower NA/EU players
A major component to the new World Championship Series is the point system, which will be used for determining which 16 players will be invited to the WCS Global Finals held following the conclusion of the final WCS Season each year.
Our primary goal for the point system was to design it in such a way that it rewarded players who are the most consistent in their performance at WCS events throughout the year. In order to achieve this, we intentionally balanced the amount of points earned from each event so that top performers wouldn’t be favored so heavily that further 2013 competition becomes negligible for other players. We also feel that this design will help to retain lively and intense competition from season to season as players battle to defend and improve their point ranking—even those who rise victorious from Season Final events. All Challenger and Premier League players in a particular WCS season will be rewarded a set number of points based on their performance, with the exception of WCS Korea, in which only the top 40 Challenger League players will be awarded points.
Some events outside of the WCS will also award points that count toward this system. In order to qualify as a point-rewarding non-WCS tournament, any given event will need to go through a formal approval process with the Blizzard eSports team. From there, non-WCS events will be split into one of two point tiers based on a few eligibility criteria that we’ll be announcing at a later date.
and then link the rest of the article at the bottom.
I like what I see. 20,000 is certainly not as high as it once was, but I am completely fine with that. There is still a good chunk of change (40k) for the 1st place for season finals which is nothing to complain about, and I'm glad the 16-32nd players get 1500 instead of the 300 reported earlier, substantially different. I honestly have no idea if thats considered sustainable for players or not, but it seems reasonable enough.
Can't wait to get into the heart of this and see some awesome games!
Season finals should give less points or prizes compared to leagues. Even if all three regions were equal in skill, a weekend tournament is still less prestigious than a 2.5 month league
Yearly finals can be an exception due being a conclusion to 3 ( or 4 next year ) seasons building in to it.
On April 17 2013 00:43 Waxangel wrote: 8 new players into each new NA/EU season vs 22 for KR
what the fuck
Wow, blizzard really dropped the ball here, that is the worst decision i have seen from them ever.
On April 17 2013 00:43 Waxangel wrote: 8 new players into each new NA/EU season vs 22 for KR
what the fuck
This just refers to the 8 qualifiers in season 1 that weren't invited. The second graphic shows it'll be 22 re-qualifying from Season 2 onwards for NA/EU, just like KR.
Once WCS 2013 Season 1 has run its course, all three WCS regions will use their respective league formats for this year’s remaining seasons, which can be seen below.
On April 17 2013 00:38 LighT. wrote: beat me to it.
Cons: - They took away the prestige of GSL/OSL further by completely depleting the prize pool for 1st/2nd place. Winner receiving 20k is like nothing compared to last year... - Seasons Finals: 5/5/5 +1 format. It should have been biased more towards Korea than Europe/America Maybe something like 4/4/7+Parting, and then the next season: 4/4/8
5/5/5 +1 format is setting up for some cannon fodder for players like Life/Parting/Innovation/Flash against some of the lower NA/EU players
Yes but, given it's a fairly safe bet the winner of the WCS KR will also win / do well in the WCS Seasonal Final that's abother $40k they can potentially add to their $20k, even if they were to shockingly lose every map in the Seasonal Final they'd end up getting $25k for 3 months. Take the first season of GSL this year, winning that got you ~$47k. If you win the Regional and Seasonal finals you're $13k up on that in a similar timeframe.
On April 17 2013 00:46 LighT. wrote: Biggest complaint: Theres no bias towards Korea although there should be a little bit of leverage towards them.
I think the bias is the fact they'll sweep the Seasonal Final...
It looks like this system essentially does away with the system of Up/Down matches since 24 players are qualifying directly from challenger league. Although it looks like you could consider the Challenger League group stage to be the Up/down matches. Overall I like that they modeled it off the GSL system, and I think that non-WCS tournaments are offering enough points to be significant. Still would love if DH or someone got something special though.
WCS Korea has a rotation of 24 players each season and WCS EU and NA only have a rotation of 8...wtf
Prize pool is meh...it's better, but still not much incentive for players trying to break into the scene to really practice to get in ($1k top prize and $375 bottom prize for Code A in KR, $300 top prize and $100 bottom prize NA/EU..and not all ppl in NA/EU get paid)
I'm very interested to see which tournaments are tier 1, tier 2
On April 17 2013 00:46 LighT. wrote: Biggest complaint: Theres no bias towards Korea although there should be a little bit of leverage towards them.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
If there was a bias toward Korea they wouldn't be coming across so much. It's because EU and NA have been given equality with Korea, despite the fact that both regions are much worse, that all the Koreans are coming. Korea has been well and truly screwed over in this whole thing and yet people are still moaning. How many NA/EU players are going to be making $1500 at least for doing NOTHING this season?
Honestly if you are in code A in europe or america there is no reason to play with the possibility of winning enough to eat for a few weeks while the season is at least two months. What are these guys supposed to do about literally everything else in there lives. Why would blizz make a new global league and only make it viable to play in for part of code S. 1500 over two and a half months means ramen and parents basement. Love that they are trying but a multi billion dollar corporation cant give out a little more?
On April 17 2013 01:01 Jknighty wrote: If there was a bias toward Korea they wouldn't be coming across so much. It's because EU and NA have been given equality with Korea, despite the fact that both regions are much worse, that all the Koreans are coming. Korea has been well and truly screwed over in this whole thing and yet people are still moaning. How many NA/EU players are going to be making $1500 at least for doing NOTHING this season?
Of course they would, the talent pool of KR is just so much bigger than the 32 or even 64 players a single tournament system can support. Giving an extra 20k to the winner because that's what GSL used to give wouldn't change jack shit.
There are too many proplayers for too little money in Korea. That is not Blizzards fault, but rather due to the reduction in audience for SC2 from SC:BW. The Korean scene will have to adapt. Probably some players will have to find another way of making a living.
If the audience for blizzard is outside of Korea, why should the money go to subsidizing the Korean scene? To ensure that they will stay the strongest forever?
On April 17 2013 01:01 Jknighty wrote: If there was a bias toward Korea they wouldn't be coming across so much. It's because EU and NA have been given equality with Korea, despite the fact that both regions are much worse, that all the Koreans are coming. Korea has been well and truly screwed over in this whole thing and yet people are still moaning. How many NA/EU players are going to be making $1500 at least for doing NOTHING this season?
Well what was WCS last year then?
There was equality last year, except that time they didn't allow the Koreans out of their own shooting gallery until the final stages.
On April 17 2013 01:02 Blackrobe wrote: 1st-8th in WCS Challenger League Europe/America earns less prize money than 41st-64th in Korea. :O
There are only a few full-time-players who wont be in the top 32 in Europe/North America, while there are still a lot of those in Korea. (While in Korea there are idk, atleast 200 fulltime progamers, there are a lot less i guess in NA and Europe)
On April 17 2013 01:02 Siwelcela wrote: Honestly if you are in code A in europe or america there is no reason to play with the possibility of winning enough to eat for a few weeks while the season is at least two months. What are these guys supposed to do about literally everything else in there lives. Why would blizz make a new global league and only make it viable to play in for part of code S. 1500 over two and a half months means ramen and parents basement. Love that they are trying but a multi billion dollar corporation cant give out a little more?
almost 2 million a year isn't enough? lol.
My rent: $300/mo Phone: $50/mo Car Insurance: $100/mo
That means after the $750/mo
I still have $300 for food. Now idk where you live, but ramen isn't that expensive.
People, just because you would have done something different, doesn't make it the "worst decision ever". Personally, I would have given EU/NA challenger a bit more, but there's nothing to whine about at all - they listened! Give them credit for once, when they deserve it!
(Yes, $20,000 for a GSL winner seems low compared to other years, but remember that whoever wins a GSL qualifies for a tournament with a bigger prizepool. So it's good.
On April 17 2013 01:02 Siwelcela wrote: Honestly if you are in code A in europe or america there is no reason to play with the possibility of winning enough to eat for a few weeks while the season is at least two months. What are these guys supposed to do about literally everything else in there lives. Why would blizz make a new global league and only make it viable to play in for part of code S. 1500 over two and a half months means ramen and parents basement. Love that they are trying but a multi billion dollar corporation cant give out a little more?
almost 2 million a year isn't enough? lol.
My rent: $300/mo Phone: $50/mo Car Insurance: $100/mo
That means after the $750/mo
I still have $300 for food. Now idk where you live, but ramen isn't that expensive.
I'm pretty sure for a player to win the $20k or whatever. Not the $1.6 million overall prize distribution.
More I read about the WCS, more I dislike it. Old GSL and individual leagues were better.
On April 17 2013 01:02 Siwelcela wrote: Honestly if you are in code A in europe or america there is no reason to play with the possibility of winning enough to eat for a few weeks while the season is at least two months. What are these guys supposed to do about literally everything else in there lives. Why would blizz make a new global league and only make it viable to play in for part of code S. 1500 over two and a half months means ramen and parents basement. Love that they are trying but a multi billion dollar corporation cant give out a little more?
almost 2 million a year isn't enough? lol.
My rent: $300/mo Phone: $50/mo Car Insurance: $100/mo
That means after the $750/mo
I still have $300 for food. Now idk where you live, but ramen isn't that expensive.
I'm pretty sure for a player to win the $20k or whatever. Not the $1.6 million overall prize distribution.
More I read about the WCS, more I dislike it. Old GSL and individual leagues were better.
Korean prize pool is decreased but 3rd~32nd finisher's prize pool is increased. And korean 1st~5th finisher will be at least 5~8th at season final,which means they earn at least $7,500
On April 17 2013 01:09 mikkmagro wrote: This is great, thank you Blizzard for listening!
People, just because you would have done something different, doesn't make it the "worst decision ever". Personally, I would have given EU/NA challenger a bit more, but there's nothing to whine about at all - they listened! Give them credit for once, when they deserve it!
(Yes, $20,000 for a GSL winner seems low compared to other years, but remember that whoever wins a GSL qualifies for a tournament with a bigger prizepool. So it's good.
I really, REALLY hope at the GSL finals mangosix will surprise the winners with additional checks for finalists - checks only having mangosix logos and devoid of any WCS graphics.
The fact that Code S / OSL title gives less moneys compared to almost every premier weekend tournament out there makes me sad.
On April 17 2013 00:38 LighT. wrote: beat me to it.
Cons: - They took away the prestige of GSL/OSL further by completely depleting the prize pool for 1st/2nd place. Winner receiving 20k is like nothing compared to last year... - Seasons Finals: 5/5/5 +1 format. It should have been biased more towards Korea than Europe/America Maybe something like 4/4/7+Parting, and then the next season: 4/4/8
5/5/5 +1 format is setting up for some cannon fodder for players like Life/Parting/Innovation/Flash against some of the lower NA/EU players
Prestige and prize-money has no direct correlation....
On April 17 2013 00:46 LighT. wrote: Biggest complaint: Theres no bias towards Korea although there should be a little bit of leverage towards them.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
You could also make a WCS South America/Africa/China joint division and it still wouldn't matter simply because the skill isn't there... Population is not correlated at all with skill.
On April 17 2013 00:46 LighT. wrote: Biggest complaint: Theres no bias towards Korea although there should be a little bit of leverage towards them.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
Like a lot of people my complaints are basically about lack of bias and preference for Koreans. They are the best, they deserve to be paid like the best. If NA/EU step it up, then even it out.
The seeds are also whack. They need to do it similar to the Champions League. Each region gets a coefficient based on performance. Better league performance = more players in the Champions League. So basically if Korea continues to dominate the WCS final, then they should get more spots.
On April 17 2013 01:02 Siwelcela wrote: Honestly if you are in code A in europe or america there is no reason to play with the possibility of winning enough to eat for a few weeks while the season is at least two months. What are these guys supposed to do about literally everything else in there lives. Why would blizz make a new global league and only make it viable to play in for part of code S. 1500 over two and a half months means ramen and parents basement. Love that they are trying but a multi billion dollar corporation cant give out a little more?
almost 2 million a year isn't enough? lol.
My rent: $300/mo Phone: $50/mo Car Insurance: $100/mo
That means after the $750/mo
I still have $300 for food. Now idk where you live, but ramen isn't that expensive.
I'm pretty sure for a player to win the $20k or whatever. Not the $1.6 million overall prize distribution.
More I read about the WCS, more I dislike it. Old GSL and individual leagues were better.
i like wcs , im hyped
I'm in favor of it! Its nice to have a true "Champion" for the year instead of so many tournaments where it's hard to keep track unless you are constantly watching all the time. As an older fan, married, I'm looking forward to knowing when a tournaments is truly "MUST WATCH" and not always feel like I'm behind because I don't have the free time I used to have. Now the WCS finals, and even the season finals will be a big time draw.
On April 17 2013 00:46 LighT. wrote: Biggest complaint: Theres no bias towards Korea although there should be a little bit of leverage towards them.
Koreans will dominate KR, NA and a part of EU league, as well as the season finals.
You cannot be serious.
No they wont dominate Europe this year. there will likely be 1 korean max and that's MVP. You're out of your mind if you think Finale/Tails will get anywhere. And if they do...they just support my argument further that there needs to be more bias towards the koreans.
WCS:NA has an interesting case with 20 or so koreans in there but the skill level isnt as good as WCS:KR. So lets say youre korean..if you move to another WCS Qualifier, you're - competing in an easier environment - equal amount of seeds = no drawbacks - same prize pool as WCS:KR, so for facing inferior competition if you win the thing, you get the same # of a Korean would winning his WCS: KR in a stacked league.
TB summed it up pretty well of what point IM trying to get across. I am serious.
On April 17 2013 01:16 lichter wrote: Like a lot of people my complaints are basically about lack of bias and preference for Koreans. They are the best, they deserve to be paid like the best. If NA/EU step it up, then even it out.
The seeds are also whack. They need to do it similar to the Champions League. Each region gets a coefficient based on performance. Better league performance = more players in the Champions League. So basically if Korea continues to dominate the WCS final, then they should get more spots.
They get an entire WCS to themselves and then mercenaries in all the other WCS divisions taking spots...
On April 17 2013 00:46 LighT. wrote: Biggest complaint: Theres no bias towards Korea although there should be a little bit of leverage towards them.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Hmm... I disliked WCS a lot when it was first announced but maybe that was only because they made it seem so confusing. If they would've just said "We'll be adding an american and european gsl" I would be all aboard from the beginning.
I like the way we now have three code s and hope that eu/am code s can reach the same level as kr code s (in popularity and prestige, long way to go skill wise) but I kinda feel like they've removed a lot from kr code s.
Kr code s WILL be the hardest competition and I feel like when the "final" wcs starts the guys who've won code s already achieved the big thing and now just has to sweep some foreigners to get the prize money...
On April 17 2013 00:46 LighT. wrote: Biggest complaint: Theres no bias towards Korea although there should be a little bit of leverage towards them.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
On April 17 2013 01:16 lichter wrote: Like a lot of people my complaints are basically about lack of bias and preference for Koreans. They are the best, they deserve to be paid like the best. If NA/EU step it up, then even it out.
The seeds are also whack. They need to do it similar to the Champions League. Each region gets a coefficient based on performance. Better league performance = more players in the Champions League. So basically if Korea continues to dominate the WCS final, then they should get more spots.
They get an entire WCS to themselves and then mercenaries in all the other WCS divisions taking spots...
Well the Koreans had the GSL taken from them instead of getting an additional WCS tournament like the other regions and then they were forced into a new tournament with a lower prize pool up front.
It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
Hahaha, it's hilarious when you realize that players like Hellokitty and Maker will at the very least be making as much money this season as Squirtle & DRG
On April 17 2013 00:46 LighT. wrote: Biggest complaint: Theres no bias towards Korea although there should be a little bit of leverage towards them.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
On April 17 2013 01:24 sitromit wrote: Hahaha, it's hilarious when you realize that players like Hellokitty and Maker will at the very least be making as much money this season as Squirtle & DRG
On April 17 2013 00:46 LighT. wrote: Biggest complaint: Theres no bias towards Korea although there should be a little bit of leverage towards them.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
Strong stable KR player. player 3x ro8 = 1500pts Lucky bracket NA/EU guy Season1: ro4 + global final ro12 = 1500 pts Season2: drops out in ro32 = 100 pts Season3: drops out in codeA qualifiers = 25 pts, total 1650pts
Which guy deserves a spot in blizzcon more?
( Yeah i know anybody with under 3000 pts probably has no chance anyway, but still this system rewards weekend warriors way too much )
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
More higher level competition and good games please. All I really wanted was to be able to watch GSL with a newer and much much much better game, but then they had to ruin it before it had a chance. A HotS GSL without the talent being diluted to other regions would have been so much better than a one-sided weekend tournament.
The WCS weekend finals are much less interesting than Code S, especially since up to 15 players could be playing with jet lag and not at their best depending on where it's held and if Koreans win every spot.
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
No it fucking isn't for god sake.
Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after it we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final.
So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments.
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
More higher level competition and good games please. All I really wanted was to be able to watch GSL with a newer and much much much better game, but then they had to ruin it before it had a chance. A HotS GSL without the talent being diluted to other regions would have been so much better than a one-sided weekend tournament.
The WCS weekend finals are much less interesting than Code S, especially since up to 15 players could be playing with jet lag and not at their best depending on where it's held and if Koreans win every spot.
How, when 6 of the 16 players will be playing in THEIR OWN REGION are they all going to be as jet lagged as you state? In fact, given the time between WCS Regional Seasons finishing and the Regional final starting they can, if they choose, travel WELL in advance of their play dates to make sure they're adjusted.
Finally makes his name in the qualifier yesterday and now finds he's $1.5k richer, even if he doesn't win another map!
im sorry but if thats true thats just dumb thats a lot of money just to qualify i mean good for bunny and im gald there trying to help out the lesser known players but just cause you got into the tourney doesnt mean you should get money, you should need to actually win more to be placed into the money atleast top 8 not the quailfers but besides that cool i guess
On April 17 2013 01:35 starslayer wrote: Finally makes his name in the qualifier yesterday and now finds he's $1.5k richer, even if he doesn't win another map!
im sorry but if thats true thats just dumb thats a lot of money just to qualify i mean good for bunny and im gald there trying to help out the lesser known players but just cause you got into the tourney doesnt mean you should get money, you should need to actually win more to be placed into the money atleast top 8 not the quailfers but besides that cool i guess
24-32nd placers in Premier League get $1.5k... it's right there...
Crazy went 0-4 in the GSL WCS KR last week and will get his $1.5k...
If they seed the season finals brackets based on the results of the regional tournaments, which they pretty much have to, otherwise it would be random, it means NA/EU #1 won't have to play KR#1 early on etc, which means higher possibility of KR#1 knocking out KR#5 in the brackets, giving EU/NA players even more protection, and easier shot at better placing/prize money.
On April 17 2013 00:46 LighT. wrote: Biggest complaint: Theres no bias towards Korea although there should be a little bit of leverage towards them.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
No it fucking isn't for god sake.
Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after ti we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final.
So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments.
No....youre wrong. So completely wrong You arent getting my freakin point. WCS: NA = 5 Seeds WCS: KR = 5 Seeds Although 5=5 may look like balance. IT ISNT. Am I complaining that there's a WCS:NA? NO. So dont bring that up. In the Seasons Finals and Blizzcon, by equating the seeds for each region, you're dropping off the level of competition. Tell me that a 5th place WCS:KR player is equivalent in skill to a 5th place of a WCS: EU Player. WCS: Korea or...might as well call it WCS: Asia CLEARLY deserves some sort of advantage or perks because it's the most competitive BY FAR. But there isnt. A Flash or a Rain = Goody? Thorzain?? Dont make me laugh.
Again stressing my point: MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS HAS A INVERT RELATIONHIP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION IN THE SEASON FINALS.
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
More higher level competition and good games please. All I really wanted was to be able to watch GSL with a newer and much much much better game, but then they had to ruin it before it had a chance. A HotS GSL without the talent being diluted to other regions would have been so much better than a one-sided weekend tournament.
The WCS weekend finals are much less interesting than Code S, especially since up to 15 players could be playing with jet lag and not at their best depending on where it's held and if Koreans win every spot.
How, when 6 of the 16 players will be playing in THEIR OWN REGION are they all going to be as jet lagged as you state? In fact, given the time between WCS Regional Seasons finishing and the Regional final starting they can, if they choose, travel WELL in advance of their play dates to make sure they're adjusted.
If Koreans playing from Korea win all 16 spots and the finals are in another country. If they travel in advance hopefully Blizzard is providing accommodation because some Korean teams won't be able to afford it.
On April 17 2013 01:42 PixelNite wrote: Haha all the koreans complaining about it on Twitter ... Wouldn't have mind Korea to have a bigger pricepool since it's the hardest league.
If Koreans are the best, then they shouldn't worry about the prize pool as they will have the opportunity to win the season finals. If they are worried about being upset by non-koreans, then they should be complaining.
On April 17 2013 00:46 LighT. wrote: Biggest complaint: Theres no bias towards Korea although there should be a little bit of leverage towards them.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
As a somewhat casual fan nowadays, this entire system is beyond any hope of comprehension for me. Cool to see a decent prize pool - a shame I have no fucking clue how anyone goes about getting it.
On April 17 2013 01:42 PixelNite wrote: Haha all the koreans complaining about it on Twitter ... Wouldn't have mind Korea to have a bigger pricepool since it's the hardest league.
No freakin shit the koreans would be complaining about them The biggest losers out of all of this are the korean players in Korea. The idea that they have no additional perks is stupid.
On April 17 2013 01:26 EleanorRIgby wrote: is kespa/gom pressuring blizzard in to favouring them so much or something? This is not fair at all.
You could say it's not fair at all for people living in Korea. The competition is clearly a few levels above anywhere else, yet the prize pools are the same.
On April 17 2013 00:46 LighT. wrote: Biggest complaint: Theres no bias towards Korea although there should be a little bit of leverage towards them.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
On April 17 2013 01:42 PixelNite wrote: Haha all the koreans complaining about it on Twitter ... Wouldn't have mind Korea to have a bigger pricepool since it's the hardest league.
No freakin shit the koreans would be complaining about them The biggest losers out of all of this are the korean players in Korea. The idea that they have no additional perks is stupid.
Yeah I can't believe it either. I guess we will keep seeing Korean players try other regions
On April 17 2013 00:56 Prplppleatr wrote: WCS Korea has a rotation of 24 players each season and WCS EU and NA only have a rotation of 8...wtf
Prize pool is meh...it's better, but still not much incentive for players trying to break into the scene to really practice to get in ($1k top prize and $375 bottom prize for Code A in KR, $300 top prize and $100 bottom prize NA/EU..and not all ppl in NA/EU get paid)
I'm very interested to see which tournaments are tier 1, tier 2
Summary: NA/EU format - crap
NA/EU Prize pool - crap
Points - undetermined
Overall - needs improvement
Please fix, Blizzard. More NA/EU players rotating out. More prize pool in challenger.
At least KR isn't happy either, so we can all be mad, lol
On April 17 2013 01:42 PixelNite wrote: Haha all the koreans complaining about it on Twitter ... Wouldn't have mind Korea to have a bigger pricepool since it's the hardest league.
If Koreans are the best, then they shouldn't worry about the prize pool as they will have the opportunity to win the season finals. If they are worried about being upset by non-koreans, then they should be complaining.
They were forced into this dumb World Cup-like tournament because the GSL was taken away from them and now they get a lower prize pool up-front. I think they have the right to complain. They have to do more work to win a similar amount of money and they have 1 less season a year. I doubt they're worried about being upset by non-Koreans but rather the Koreans that they have to beat twice just to get a decent payout compared to the old GSL.
On April 17 2013 01:36 Waxangel wrote: I'm excited to see which NA player can become the new Virus or Ensnare
It's not technically NA but isn't that Fenix already? People didn't even know he was alive for a good part of the last year and he still comes to the World Finals and gets a seed into this now.
And I'd be more interested in which tournament belongs into which tier than in the exact point distribution, I guess, that will be pretty important for the tournaments themselves and also the players to know. If you're unexpectedly Tier 2, you're pretty much fucked in terms of top player attendance, I'd say, unless you pump an ungodly amount of money into the tournament.
Does anyone have information why Blizzard decided to merge OSL GSL for WCS instead of creating a new WCS league instead? I thought this was one of the biggest concern and I still can't find any information on this matter.
On April 17 2013 00:46 LighT. wrote: Biggest complaint: Theres no bias towards Korea although there should be a little bit of leverage towards them.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
Lol do you know how much fucking money it would cost for a whole Korean team house to relocate to EU/NA? This system is kind of really bad from what I can make sense of it. The seeding into the finals is a joke at 5-5 considering the top 30 Koreans could all easily beat the 4-5th place NA/EU players. Then new players into the next season is what 8 for EU/NA and 22 for Korea? What in the literal fuck?
So the place with the highest level of competition they bottle neck at the top end, and the place in the most need of new faces/talent they bottle neck at the low end.... Seriously am I missing something here? Please tell me I've missed something because if not that is fucking stupid and just killed all the hype I really had for WCS...
On April 17 2013 00:46 LighT. wrote: Biggest complaint: Theres no bias towards Korea although there should be a little bit of leverage towards them.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
korea to eu lag is horrid and is an extreme handicap while the lag to NA is playable.
So koreans dont get huge bonuses anymore (besides the fact that a korean will probably win the finals anyway) like "oh if you want to play here, you have to move to korea, because our code a / code s qualifiers are not online!" or "well sucks to not live in a country where the whole scene is concentrated in a single city"? Tough luck.
On April 17 2013 00:52 AlbertHR wrote: I'm kinda nervous for the prize pool distribution.... Being it equal across the board might encourage more Koreans to change regions to NA/EU
Yep - but on the flip side it might encourage Koreans to actually stay in EU or NA, which locals can benefit from if they train together.
Remember, that $20k for 1st in Premier is basically $25k minimum, as 1st place will get to the season finals, and the least they can make there is $5k.
On April 17 2013 00:46 LighT. wrote: Biggest complaint: Theres no bias towards Korea although there should be a little bit of leverage towards them.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
On April 17 2013 01:16 lichter wrote: Like a lot of people my complaints are basically about lack of bias and preference for Koreans. They are the best, they deserve to be paid like the best. If NA/EU step it up, then even it out.
Korea has more paid in Challenger league and more points awarded there as well. Did everyone miss this?
On April 17 2013 01:42 PixelNite wrote: Haha all the koreans complaining about it on Twitter ... Wouldn't have mind Korea to have a bigger pricepool since it's the hardest league.
No freakin shit the koreans would be complaining about them The biggest losers out of all of this are the korean players in Korea. The idea that they have no additional perks is stupid.
Yeah I can't believe it either. I guess we will keep seeing Korean players try other regions
They wont because they cant. The analogy I see is blizzard swiping away at the Korean's possession and oddly similar to North Korea where the government takes away people's possessions/crops and then laughing "haha, I took your shit and you cant do a single thing about it"
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
Lol do you know how much fucking money it would cost for a whole Korean team house to relocate to EU/NA? This system is kind of really bad from what I can make sense of it. The seeding into the finals is a joke at 5-5 considering the top 30 Koreans could all easily beat the 4-5th place NA/EU players. Then new players into the next season is what 8 for EU/NA and 22 for Korea? What in the literal fuck?
So the place with the highest level of competition they bottle neck at the top end, and the place in the most need of new faces/talent they bottle neck at the low end.... Seriously am I missing something here? Please tell me I've missed something because if not that is fucking stupid and just killed all the hype I really had for WCS...
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
No it fucking isn't for god sake.
Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after ti we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final.
So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments.
No....youre wrong. So completely wrong You arent getting my freakin point. WCS: NA = 5 Seeds WCS: KR = 5 Seeds Although 5=5 may look like balance. IT ISNT. Am I complaining that there's a WCS:NA? NO. So dont bring that up. In the Seasons Finals and Blizzcon, by equating the seeds for each region, you're dropping off the level of competition. Tell me that a 5th place WCS:KR player is equivalent in skill to a 5th place of a WCS: EU Player. WCS: Korea or...might as well call it WCS: Asia CLEARLY deserves some sort of advantage or perks because it's the most competitive BY FAR. But there isnt. A Flash or a Rain = Goody? Thorzain?? Dont make me laugh.
Again stressing my point: MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS HAS A INVERT RELATIONHIP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION IN THE SEASON FINALS.
Gosh you drive me to despair.
5 spots from WCS KR with only KR players 5 spots from WCS KR with half KR / half NA players 5 spots from WCS EU with mostly EU players and MVP.
You're honestly telling me viOlet, Polt, Ryung, HerO, Taeja et al can't get the top 5 in WCS NA every season lol?
Alex Raymond @ClarityShew That $300 for 1st in WCS challenger league is gonna be the hardest $300 i'm ever gonna work for
thaz guy needs to remember that if he gets 1st in challenge league he will have a spot in prem league which gives atleast 1,5k dollar even without winning a map,
I like that Blizzard is supporting their game but on the other hand i feel like they are diminishing the GSL/OSL to mere point grabs? i feel that when some one in BW was a golden mouse winner that stood for something, and not anymore.
edit: i wish they had kept each region to either nationality or where they are living, so like polt in America i have no issues with.
On April 17 2013 01:42 PixelNite wrote: Haha all the koreans complaining about it on Twitter ... Wouldn't have mind Korea to have a bigger pricepool since it's the hardest league.
If Koreans are the best, then they shouldn't worry about the prize pool as they will have the opportunity to win the season finals. If they are worried about being upset by non-koreans, then they should be complaining.
They were forced into this dumb World Cup-like tournament because the GSL was taken away from them and now they get a lower prize pool up-front. I think they have the right to complain. They have to do more work to win a similar amount of money and they have 1 less season a year. I doubt they're worried about being upset by non-Koreans but rather the Koreans that they have to beat twice just to get a decent payout compared to the old GSL.
No, they don't have a right to complain. Assuming that the Koreans take 1-5th place in the regional finals
Old System 1st: $46,827 2nd:$18,731 3-4: $4,683 5-8: $2,810
The WCS will kill eSF teams unless 5 eSF team players get top spots every time. The Korean scene was already struggling but this doesn't help at all. I'm all for cultivating other scenes but why did they have to take from the Korean scene in the process?
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
This! Millenium manager llewellis said that this acer team cup is the first step to a team league in Europe. I would be so hyped about that.
On April 17 2013 01:55 Grettin wrote: I like this comment on Twitter.
Alex Raymond @ClarityShew That $300 for 1st in WCS challenger league is gonna be the hardest $300 i'm ever gonna work for
thaz guy needs to remember that if he gets 1st in challenge league he will have a spot in prem league which gives atleast 1,5k dollar even without winning a map,
Sure, but the toughness of the challenger league itself is going to be hard to get that 1st place. Thats more or less the point. Does all that motivate you to try to get trough all the others and get to the next league?
On April 17 2013 01:42 PixelNite wrote: Haha all the koreans complaining about it on Twitter ... Wouldn't have mind Korea to have a bigger pricepool since it's the hardest league.
They lost 1 whole season of separate GSL = 160k One separate OSL = 96k Old format WCS Korea/Asia/Finals = 26.5k + 43.2k ( top8 ) + 156k ( top 3) = 225k 3 WCS Code S seasons have 25k in prize money compared to last year GSL'ls = 75k
Total 556k money gone from tournaments that are in korea, or are seeded based on KR tournaments.
So lets see what they have gained. 3 Global finals ( lets assume they take top4 spots every time) : 240k 1 blizzcon final ( lets assume they will take top8 ) : 210k
Total 450k new WCS money - so yeah, those global weekend tourneys dont compensate for the damage done to GSL.
Still kind of baffled where the hell Blizzard came up with the " we are putting 3x more money in this year" statement.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
Lol do you know how much fucking money it would cost for a whole Korean team house to relocate to EU/NA? This system is kind of really bad from what I can make sense of it. The seeding into the finals is a joke at 5-5 considering the top 30 Koreans could all easily beat the 4-5th place NA/EU players. Then new players into the next season is what 8 for EU/NA and 22 for Korea? What in the literal fuck?
So the place with the highest level of competition they bottle neck at the top end, and the place in the most need of new faces/talent they bottle neck at the low end.... Seriously am I missing something here? Please tell me I've missed something because if not that is fucking stupid and just killed all the hype I really had for WCS...
Well, moving team houses from Korea to NA/EU is literally Blizzard's goal. Go listen to their interviews on the WCS system. Based on the NA sign up list, it seems to be working. Next year when the whole league is offline, EG, TL, Axiom, and Quantic all have to either forfeit their NA spots and start over in Code B or move to NA.
Lol joke prize pool for GSL. 20k for first?! Win more winning an mlg now. What a horrible system blizzard put in place. All for the chance to give charity money to foreigners for putting in less work. At least in EU, since lag from kr to eu makes it unfeasible for most koreans to play in. At least koreans should dominate wcs NA.
If blizzard wants to give foreigners money so bad, they should just hold a lottery instead of going through this sham. I wouldn't have a problem with region locking and would encourage it, if the non kr leagues had 33% of the prize pool compared to the kr league. No other sports league in the world rewards lesser players with equal prize pools or salaries, etc.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man.
On April 17 2013 01:55 Grettin wrote: I like this comment on Twitter.
Alex Raymond @ClarityShew That $300 for 1st in WCS challenger league is gonna be the hardest $300 i'm ever gonna work for
thaz guy needs to remember that if he gets 1st in challenge league he will have a spot in prem league which gives atleast 1,5k dollar even without winning a map,
Sure, but the toughness of the challenger league itself is going to be hard to get that 1st place. Thats more or less the point. Does all that motivate you to try to get trough all the others and get to the next league?
Aren't 8th place in challenger league getting the same money? And they get to play in RO32 also.
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
No it fucking isn't for god sake.
Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after ti we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final.
So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments.
No....youre wrong. So completely wrong You arent getting my freakin point. WCS: NA = 5 Seeds WCS: KR = 5 Seeds Although 5=5 may look like balance. IT ISNT. Am I complaining that there's a WCS:NA? NO. So dont bring that up. In the Seasons Finals and Blizzcon, by equating the seeds for each region, you're dropping off the level of competition. Tell me that a 5th place WCS:KR player is equivalent in skill to a 5th place of a WCS: EU Player. WCS: Korea or...might as well call it WCS: Asia CLEARLY deserves some sort of advantage or perks because it's the most competitive BY FAR. But there isnt. A Flash or a Rain = Goody? Thorzain?? Dont make me laugh.
Again stressing my point: MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS HAS A INVERT RELATIONHIP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION IN THE SEASON FINALS.
Gosh you drive me to despair.
5 spots from WCS KR with only KR players 5 spots from WCS KR with half KR / half NA players 5 spots from WCS EU with mostly EU players and MVP.
You're honestly telling me viOlet, Polt, Ryung, HerO, Taeja can't get the top 5 in WCS NA every season lol?
I think you should follow the 6 pages of the thread. I've spoke about this issue. Again: BIgger gainers: koreans in foreigner teams; Why? - Flexibility - Easier region - still with same prize pool
Gainers: NA + Eu players. Why? - They have their own region - They have a league (at least EU) that deters koreans from joining and has a pretty good prize pool for not having them around
Bigger losers: Koreans in korean teams Why? - No flexibility - Harder Region - Still with same prize pool as other nations - Lowered prize pool
The Season Finals = Good or bad?
Pros: - likelihood of more representatives of other nations
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
Like it is currently if a team wants to move to korea? Why should it be made easier? If its a *regional* league, I expect regional players. Want the money? Get here and play for it.
Ah an offline team league.. where should it be? Europe`? Where? Teams have players all over europa and they had to relocate. US? Even bigger and more complicated (if you are an european team). Without lots of cash invested (I would guess european or NA players would rightfully don't like to live in some small shitty home with bunkbeds when you can stay in your own country and make enough from streaming) this is not going to happen. There is no huge center like seoul, so this is not possible.
On April 17 2013 02:04 Clefairy wrote: The WCS will kill eSF teams unless 5 eSF team players get top spots every time. The Korean scene was already struggling but this doesn't help at all. I'm all for cultivating other scenes but why did they have to take from the Korean scene in the process?
Because with the exception of LG-IM and to a lesser extend StarTale the other eSF teams are a joke?
Every Kespa team, with the exception of T8 has the backing of a multi million dollar company in their name. Most eSF teams don't even have 3 sponsors.
On April 17 2013 01:42 PixelNite wrote: Haha all the koreans complaining about it on Twitter ... Wouldn't have mind Korea to have a bigger pricepool since it's the hardest league.
If Koreans are the best, then they shouldn't worry about the prize pool as they will have the opportunity to win the season finals. If they are worried about being upset by non-koreans, then they should be complaining.
They were forced into this dumb World Cup-like tournament because the GSL was taken away from them and now they get a lower prize pool up-front. I think they have the right to complain. They have to do more work to win a similar amount of money and they have 1 less season a year. I doubt they're worried about being upset by non-Koreans but rather the Koreans that they have to beat twice just to get a decent payout compared to the old GSL.
No, they don't have a right to complain. Assuming that the Koreans take 1-5th place in the regional finals
Old System 1st: $46,827 2nd:$18,731 3-4: $4,683 5-8: $2,810
So, if the GSL champion gets 1st or 2nd in the regional finals, then he will win more money than in the previous system.
If the GSL runner up gets 5th in the regional finals, then he will win more money than in the previous system.
GSL semifinalists will win more money in the new system.
Every other GSL placing player will win more money in the new system.
The only chance of winning less money than in the previous system exists for the GSL champion.
Each 2 tournaments pays slightly more for the top placers excluding the GSL champion (in most cases excluding back to back wins) after doing more work, but that's at the cost of an entire season of prize money.
On April 17 2013 02:04 Clefairy wrote: The WCS will kill eSF teams unless 5 eSF team players get top spots every time. The Korean scene was already struggling but this doesn't help at all. I'm all for cultivating other scenes but why did they have to take from the Korean scene in the process?
Because with the exception of LG-IM and to a lesser extend StarTale the other eSF teams are a joke?
Every Kespa team, with the exception of T8 has the backing of a multi million dollar company in their name. Most eSF teams don't even have 3 sponsors.
Yeah that's what I meant. It will get incredibly difficult to get sponsors for most eSF teams now, and they will inevitably have to disband feeding public perception in Korea that Starcraft 2 is a failure, which isn't good for the scene at all. The Korean scene is being sacrificed for the others.
On April 17 2013 01:55 Grettin wrote: I like this comment on Twitter.
Alex Raymond @ClarityShew That $300 for 1st in WCS challenger league is gonna be the hardest $300 i'm ever gonna work for
thaz guy needs to remember that if he gets 1st in challenge league he will have a spot in prem league which gives atleast 1,5k dollar even without winning a map,
Sure, but the toughness of the challenger league itself is going to be hard to get that 1st place. Thats more or less the point. Does all that motivate you to try to get trough all the others and get to the next league?
Aren't 8th place in challenger league getting the same money? And they get to play in RO32 also.
Good point, you're right. But still, it's going to be tough road, i'd assume.
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
No it fucking isn't for god sake.
Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after ti we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final.
So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments.
No....youre wrong. So completely wrong You arent getting my freakin point. WCS: NA = 5 Seeds WCS: KR = 5 Seeds Although 5=5 may look like balance. IT ISNT. Am I complaining that there's a WCS:NA? NO. So dont bring that up. In the Seasons Finals and Blizzcon, by equating the seeds for each region, you're dropping off the level of competition. Tell me that a 5th place WCS:KR player is equivalent in skill to a 5th place of a WCS: EU Player. WCS: Korea or...might as well call it WCS: Asia CLEARLY deserves some sort of advantage or perks because it's the most competitive BY FAR. But there isnt. A Flash or a Rain = Goody? Thorzain?? Dont make me laugh.
Again stressing my point: MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS HAS A INVERT RELATIONHIP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION IN THE SEASON FINALS.
Gosh you drive me to despair.
5 spots from WCS KR with only KR players 5 spots from WCS KR with half KR / half NA players 5 spots from WCS EU with mostly EU players and MVP.
You're honestly telling me viOlet, Polt, Ryung, HerO, Taeja can't get the top 5 in WCS NA every season lol?
I think you should follow the 6 pages of the thread. I've spoke about this issue. Again: BIgger gainers: koreans in foreigner teams; Why? - Flexibility - Easier region - still with same prize pool
Gainers: NA + Eu players. Why? - They have their own region - They have a league (at least EU) that deters koreans from joining and has a pretty good prize pool for not having them around
Bigger losers: Koreans in korean teams Why? - No flexibility - Harder Region - Still with same prize pool as other nations - Lowered prize pool
The Season Finals = Good or bad?
Pros: - likelihood of more representatives of other nations
Cons: -dilutes level of competition
Compare it to last year. Last year Koreans had no choice at all about where they competed and Foreigners were totally protected from our Korean Overlords until the World Finals.
Comparing this year to last year it is BETTER for Koreans and WORSE for foreigners.
Last year VIBE won $12k just for beating other American players and another $9k for coming second in a pool of only North Americans plus another $2.5k for getting to the Global Final. You think he wouldn't kill to have that chance again? As I'd bet you all the money I own VIBE doesn't make £23.5k from WCS this year even though he has 3 time the tournaments.
And here you are saying it's better for foreigners this year!!!!
The winner of WCS Korea last year won LESS than the winner of WCS America for god sake.
On April 17 2013 02:07 Canucklehead wrote: Lol joke prize pool for GSL. 20k for first?! Win more winning an mlg now. What a horrible system blizzard put in place.
Did you not see all the money being awarded in each season finals and the grand finals? If getting 1st at GSL is where the prizes stopped maybe you'd have a point, but it doesn't. They're spreading all the money across multiple finals, and the best players will be paid big.
1st in GSL followed up by 1st in Season Finals is $60k.
The situation really sucks for Koreans that decided to play in NA or EU and don't make it into Code S.
Just take MVPTails who tries to get into WCS EU right now. There's a realistic chance that he will not make it this season. But he's participated in the qualifiers, so that means that for the rest of the year he cannot even try to get into GSL or OSL. And there are not really any other tournaments (besides team leagues) in Korea. And sending him to a foreign event? Why would his team ever do that, when they can instead send a WCS player who needs some more WCS points to get into the Season/Global finals?
So there's practically nothing for him to do for a full year other than playing a few qualifiers and hoping to get in. That doesn't sound very fun at all.
On April 17 2013 01:42 PixelNite wrote: Haha all the koreans complaining about it on Twitter ... Wouldn't have mind Korea to have a bigger pricepool since it's the hardest league.
They lost 1 whole season of separate GSL = 160k One separate OSL = 96k Old format WCS Korea/Asia/Finals = 26.5k + 43.2k ( top8 ) + 156k ( top 3) = 225k 3 WCS Code S seasons have 25k in prize money compared to last year GSL'ls = 75k
Total 556k money gone from tournaments that are in korea, or are seeded based on KR tournaments.
So lets see what they have gained. 3 Global finals ( lets assume they take top4 spots every time) : 240k 1 blizzcon final ( lets assume they will take top8 ) : 210k
Total 450k new WCS money - so yeah, those global weekend tourneys dont compensate for the damage done to GSL.
Still kind of baffled where the hell Blizzard came up with the " we are putting 3x more money in this year" statement.
Except GOM and Kespa also have the option of running weekend (Western-style) events? Blizzard isn't stopping them from having more tournaments that are individually sponsored.
That said, the entire scene is seeing a reduction in the number of tournaments. MLG isn't holding their Arenas, and IPL is done. If all Korea gets is the current GSL/OSL seasons and their team leagues, then it's a contraction that is in line with the NA scene's contraction.
Blizzard wants koreans to spread out. It will make NA and EU more interesting. There won't be one ultimate league focused in KR, but that's what they want, and it is probably better for the future of sc2 as an esport.
In the long run, it will probably increase the skill of foreigners.
On April 17 2013 01:15 LighT. wrote: [quote] Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man.
I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take"
On April 17 2013 01:55 Grettin wrote: I like this comment on Twitter.
Alex Raymond @ClarityShew That $300 for 1st in WCS challenger league is gonna be the hardest $300 i'm ever gonna work for
thaz guy needs to remember that if he gets 1st in challenge league he will have a spot in prem league which gives atleast 1,5k dollar even without winning a map,
Sure, but the toughness of the challenger league itself is going to be hard to get that 1st place. Thats more or less the point. Does all that motivate you to try to get trough all the others and get to the next league?
dont u think its better to win a little bit than nothing ? before there wasnt a league for low mid pros ,its his own choice to be a progamer and no one said the life is easy as pro
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man.
I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take"
Nothing is stopping the Korean scene from holding their own weekend tournaments. GOM worked with IPL and learned how to hold something like that, so it's not Blizzard's fault if the Korean scene doesn't want to expand their own tournament scene.
On April 17 2013 02:12 LighT. wrote: Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take"
Lets be honest, nothing was taken away from Koreans. They will still place highly at season finals and will probably represent most of the global finals. Add up the prize money and it's very large.
Plus, they get WAY more money in Challenger league than NA/EU does as well as more points for it too.
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
No it fucking isn't for god sake.
Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after ti we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final.
So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments.
No....youre wrong. So completely wrong You arent getting my freakin point. WCS: NA = 5 Seeds WCS: KR = 5 Seeds Although 5=5 may look like balance. IT ISNT. Am I complaining that there's a WCS:NA? NO. So dont bring that up. In the Seasons Finals and Blizzcon, by equating the seeds for each region, you're dropping off the level of competition. Tell me that a 5th place WCS:KR player is equivalent in skill to a 5th place of a WCS: EU Player. WCS: Korea or...might as well call it WCS: Asia CLEARLY deserves some sort of advantage or perks because it's the most competitive BY FAR. But there isnt. A Flash or a Rain = Goody? Thorzain?? Dont make me laugh.
Again stressing my point: MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS HAS A INVERT RELATIONHIP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION IN THE SEASON FINALS.
Gosh you drive me to despair.
5 spots from WCS KR with only KR players 5 spots from WCS KR with half KR / half NA players 5 spots from WCS EU with mostly EU players and MVP.
You're honestly telling me viOlet, Polt, Ryung, HerO, Taeja can't get the top 5 in WCS NA every season lol?
I think you should follow the 6 pages of the thread. I've spoke about this issue. Again: BIgger gainers: koreans in foreigner teams; Why? - Flexibility - Easier region - still with same prize pool
Gainers: NA + Eu players. Why? - They have their own region - They have a league (at least EU) that deters koreans from joining and has a pretty good prize pool for not having them around
Bigger losers: Koreans in korean teams Why? - No flexibility - Harder Region - Still with same prize pool as other nations - Lowered prize pool
The Season Finals = Good or bad?
Pros: - likelihood of more representatives of other nations
Cons: -dilutes level of competition
Compare it to last year. Last year Koreans had no choice at all about where they competed and Foreigners were totally protected from our Korean Overlords until the World Finals.
Comparing this year to last year it is BETTER for Koreans and WORSE for foreigners.
Last year VIBE won $12k just for beating other American players and another $9k for coming second in a pool of only North Americans plus another $2.5k for getting to the Global Final. You think he wouldn't kill to have that chance again? As I'd bet you all the money I own VIBE doens't make £23.5k from WCS this year.
And here you are saying it's better for foreigners this year!!!!
I think my final point isnt much about the foreigners in general but more about how they're regressing the korean scene. Tell me...from what I wrote: "Bigger losers: Koreans in korean teams Why? - No flexibility - Harder Region - Still with same prize pool as other nations - Lowered prize pool"
Why does this have to happen? And why do they have to equal WCS:NA and WCS:EU in terms of prize money...and have no perks whatsoever?
On April 17 2013 01:42 PixelNite wrote: Haha all the koreans complaining about it on Twitter ... Wouldn't have mind Korea to have a bigger pricepool since it's the hardest league.
They lost 1 whole season of separate GSL = 160k One separate OSL = 96k Old format WCS Korea/Asia/Finals = 26.5k + 43.2k ( top8 ) + 156k ( top 3) = 225k 3 WCS Code S seasons have 25k in prize money compared to last year GSL'ls = 75k
Total 556k money gone from tournaments that are in korea, or are seeded based on KR tournaments.
So lets see what they have gained. 3 Global finals ( lets assume they take top4 spots every time) : 240k 1 blizzcon final ( lets assume they will take top8 ) : 210k
Total 450k new WCS money - so yeah, those global weekend tourneys dont compensate for the damage done to GSL.
Still kind of baffled where the hell Blizzard came up with the " we are putting 3x more money in this year" statement.
Except GOM and Kespa also have the option of running weekend (Western-style) events? Blizzard isn't stopping them from having more tournaments that are individually sponsored.
That said, the entire scene is seeing a reduction in the number of tournaments. MLG isn't holding their Arenas, and IPL is done. If all Korea gets is the current GSL/OSL seasons and their team leagues, then it's a contraction that is in line with the NA scene's contraction.
Except sponsors would pay much less for tourneys that just last a weekend, compared to several months - so there is much less incentive to run them.
Basically, things have gotten worse for virtually every Korean player. You can say all you want about how winning both GSL and season finals amounts to more money, but there have been so few repeat winners in the GSL that this is incredibly unlikely even for the best players since the skill gap is so small between the top players. So basically, if you're one of the best players in Korea, you now have to win two tournaments in order to get pretty much the same money as you got for winning one before. And it's not like the GSL got any easier, either. So basically it sucks to be a Korean.
On April 17 2013 02:12 LighT. wrote: Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take"
Please elaborate on what Blizzard is taking away from the Korean scene. Because to me it seems you are equating not giving them extra priviledges to taking things away.
What comes to GSL pricepools, ever thought that the old ones wouldn't be sustainable in the first place?
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
No it fucking isn't for god sake.
Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after ti we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final.
So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments.
No....youre wrong. So completely wrong You arent getting my freakin point. WCS: NA = 5 Seeds WCS: KR = 5 Seeds Although 5=5 may look like balance. IT ISNT. Am I complaining that there's a WCS:NA? NO. So dont bring that up. In the Seasons Finals and Blizzcon, by equating the seeds for each region, you're dropping off the level of competition. Tell me that a 5th place WCS:KR player is equivalent in skill to a 5th place of a WCS: EU Player. WCS: Korea or...might as well call it WCS: Asia CLEARLY deserves some sort of advantage or perks because it's the most competitive BY FAR. But there isnt. A Flash or a Rain = Goody? Thorzain?? Dont make me laugh.
Again stressing my point: MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS HAS A INVERT RELATIONHIP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION IN THE SEASON FINALS.
Get real dude. There is currently as many GSL Code S Gold medals in WCS EU Premier as there is in Code S. And why would you assume someone like Goody will be in top 5? It would more likely be something like: Mvp, MMM, Stephano, Naniwa (who made it to Code S ro8 twice in a row) and Ret.
There is a pretty substantial difference between EU and NA, and quite of a few of the European players can beat Koreans, especially those Koreans who play in WCS NA.
On April 17 2013 01:42 PixelNite wrote: Haha all the koreans complaining about it on Twitter ... Wouldn't have mind Korea to have a bigger pricepool since it's the hardest league.
They lost 1 whole season of separate GSL = 160k One separate OSL = 96k Old format WCS Korea/Asia/Finals = 26.5k + 43.2k ( top8 ) + 156k ( top 3) = 225k 3 WCS Code S seasons have 25k in prize money compared to last year GSL'ls = 75k
Total 556k money gone from tournaments that are in korea, or are seeded based on KR tournaments.
So lets see what they have gained. 3 Global finals ( lets assume they take top4 spots every time) : 240k 1 blizzcon final ( lets assume they will take top8 ) : 210k
Total 450k new WCS money - so yeah, those global weekend tourneys dont compensate for the damage done to GSL.
Still kind of baffled where the hell Blizzard came up with the " we are putting 3x more money in this year" statement.
Except GOM and Kespa also have the option of running weekend (Western-style) events? Blizzard isn't stopping them from having more tournaments that are individually sponsored.
That said, the entire scene is seeing a reduction in the number of tournaments. MLG isn't holding their Arenas, and IPL is done. If all Korea gets is the current GSL/OSL seasons and their team leagues, then it's a contraction that is in line with the NA scene's contraction.
Except sponsors would pay much less for tourneys that just last a weekend, compared to several months - so there is much less incentive to run them.
Currently weekend in Korea is occupied by GSTL and proleague. I don't think there is any room for such tournament and they really don't need such.
NA and EU having an easier time on the pros that they wont risk to fall out of "premier league".
The point distribution looks really iffy to me because if you are a player in the challenger league in Korea you wont necessary have to access to the non WCS tournaments, ie no shot at making the Finals but the top tier more popular players and on certain teams will have a feast on them points.
But time will tell how it turns out, that NA/EU don't play by the same rules as KR is pissing me off some.
On April 17 2013 01:23 LighT. wrote: [quote] Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man.
I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take"
Nothing is stopping the Korean scene from holding their own weekend tournaments. GOM worked with IPL and learned how to hold something like that, so it's not Blizzard's fault if the Korean scene doesn't want to expand their own tournament scene.
They HAD that. GSL and OSL was their thing. But they decided to combined GSL/OSL for the co-operation of OGN and GomTV. (Fine, this is good..OGN and GomTV do have to work together) THen they decide to turn essentially...what was their korean league into: WCS:KR.
Look at MLG, they gained a tournament. MLG weekends are still going to be in place. But another tournament has been sprouted in MLG:WCS:NA IEM weekends are still going to be in place + Deramhack. ANother tournament been sprouted in IEM:WCS:EU
Now..the korean scene.. GSL + OSL, combined to make WCS:KR and they took away their high prize money pool, the prestige of winning those titles (the rich history or oov/Flash/boxer/MVP) and Korea gains nothing from it outside of having some games broadcasted on OGN.
On April 17 2013 01:35 starslayer wrote: Finally makes his name in the qualifier yesterday and now finds he's $1.5k richer, even if he doesn't win another map!
im sorry but if thats true thats just dumb thats a lot of money just to qualify i mean good for bunny and im gald there trying to help out the lesser known players but just cause you got into the tourney doesnt mean you should get money, you should need to actually win more to be placed into the money atleast top 8 not the quailfers but besides that cool i guess
24-32nd placers in Premier League get $1.5k... it's right there...
Crazy went 0-4 in the GSL WCS KR last week and will get his $1.5k...
ok and i think crazy shouldnt get money either 0-4 are you kidding me come on its saying its ok to lose
edit once again i get there trying to help the no names that are putting there life on hold to play this game but come on... again placing 24 - 32nd is just bad maybe a lil money but 1.5k for losing 0-4 or getting into a quailfers shouldnt be getting a prize
edit crazy is in code s one of the hardest tourneys in the world i get he got knocked out 0-4 but he atleast made it to code s where bunny or w.e just made it through the qualifiers not the same at all
On April 17 2013 02:12 LighT. wrote: Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take"
Please elaborate on what Blizzard is taking away from the Korean scene. Because to me it seems you are equating not giving them extra priviledges to taking things away.
What comes to GSL pricepools, ever thought that the old ones wouldn't be sustainable in the first place?
Taking away players in Korean tournaments, isn't that the biggest thing you can take away?
And giving established players an advantage over new rookie players, not based on previous performance or skill, but on resource and money. Taking away the fairness of the whole Korean scene.
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man.
I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take"
Nothing is stopping the Korean scene from holding their own weekend tournaments. GOM worked with IPL and learned how to hold something like that, so it's not Blizzard's fault if the Korean scene doesn't want to expand their own tournament scene.
They HAD that. GSL and OSL was their thing. But they decided to combined GSL/OSL for the co-operation of OGN and GomTV. (Fine, this is good..OGN and GomTV do have to work together) THen they decide to turn essentially...what was their korean league into: WCS:KR.
Look at MLG, they gained a tournament. MLG weekends are still going to be in place. But another tournament has been sprouted in MLG:WCS:NA IEM weekends are still going to be in place + Deramhack. ANother tournament been sprouted in IEM:WCS:EU
Now..the korean scene.. GSL + OSL, combined to make WCS:KR and they took away their high prize money pool, the prestige of winning those titles (the rich history or oov/Flash/boxer/MVP) and Korea gains nothing from it outside of having some games broadcasted on OGN.
What about GSTL? Maybe now its time for GOM to invest more on GSTL. I think team tournament can be interesting as much as WCS. If GOM can use those saved money from GSL to put it in GSTL, they could creat possible steady income for players.
The thing that really sticks out for me is the rotation of NA/EU Challenger League. 8 players being sent down to Code B is not enough, by far. That's one of the painful learnings of GSL 2011: terribad players will hang onto WCS spots for a long time with only 8 players falling out, leaving new talents waiting in the depths of qualifiers for way too long. This really needs fixing.
On April 17 2013 02:21 Tobblish wrote: The point distribution looks really iffy to me because if you are a player in the challenger league in Korea you wont necessary have to access to the non WCS tournaments, ie no shot at making the Finals but the top tier more popular players and on certain teams will have a feast on them points.
This is probably why Challenger league in Korea awards more points than NA/EU does.
On April 17 2013 01:35 starslayer wrote: Finally makes his name in the qualifier yesterday and now finds he's $1.5k richer, even if he doesn't win another map!
im sorry but if thats true thats just dumb thats a lot of money just to qualify i mean good for bunny and im gald there trying to help out the lesser known players but just cause you got into the tourney doesnt mean you should get money, you should need to actually win more to be placed into the money atleast top 8 not the quailfers but besides that cool i guess
24-32nd placers in Premier League get $1.5k... it's right there...
Crazy went 0-4 in the GSL WCS KR last week and will get his $1.5k...
ok and i think crazy shouldnt get money either 0-4 are you kidding me come on its saying its ok to loses
Well, might as well take it up with GOM then, since they've always paid out every spot in Code S, regardless of map score. I guess you could equate it to appearance fees in other sports.
On April 17 2013 01:42 PixelNite wrote: Haha all the koreans complaining about it on Twitter ... Wouldn't have mind Korea to have a bigger pricepool since it's the hardest league.
They lost 1 whole season of separate GSL = 160k One separate OSL = 96k Old format WCS Korea/Asia/Finals = 26.5k + 43.2k ( top8 ) + 156k ( top 3) = 225k 3 WCS Code S seasons have 25k in prize money compared to last year GSL'ls = 75k
Total 556k money gone from tournaments that are in korea, or are seeded based on KR tournaments.
So lets see what they have gained. 3 Global finals ( lets assume they take top4 spots every time) : 240k 1 blizzcon final ( lets assume they will take top8 ) : 210k
Total 450k new WCS money - so yeah, those global weekend tourneys dont compensate for the damage done to GSL.
Still kind of baffled where the hell Blizzard came up with the " we are putting 3x more money in this year" statement.
Except GOM and Kespa also have the option of running weekend (Western-style) events? Blizzard isn't stopping them from having more tournaments that are individually sponsored.
That said, the entire scene is seeing a reduction in the number of tournaments. MLG isn't holding their Arenas, and IPL is done. If all Korea gets is the current GSL/OSL seasons and their team leagues, then it's a contraction that is in line with the NA scene's contraction.
Except sponsors would pay much less for tourneys that just last a weekend, compared to several months - so there is much less incentive to run them.
Currently weekend in Korea is occupied by GSTL and proleague. I don't think there is any room for such tournament and they really don't need such.
So they can't have extra tournaments because they already have tournaments? It's not like there are NA/EU equivalents of GSTL and Proleague.
Then again, that argument is a red herring. They can easily schedule around those events. It's not like all of EG-TL is attending Dreamhack, or Kespa sends their top players to MLG events.
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
No it fucking isn't for god sake.
Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after ti we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final.
So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments.
No....youre wrong. So completely wrong You arent getting my freakin point. WCS: NA = 5 Seeds WCS: KR = 5 Seeds Although 5=5 may look like balance. IT ISNT. Am I complaining that there's a WCS:NA? NO. So dont bring that up. In the Seasons Finals and Blizzcon, by equating the seeds for each region, you're dropping off the level of competition. Tell me that a 5th place WCS:KR player is equivalent in skill to a 5th place of a WCS: EU Player. WCS: Korea or...might as well call it WCS: Asia CLEARLY deserves some sort of advantage or perks because it's the most competitive BY FAR. But there isnt. A Flash or a Rain = Goody? Thorzain?? Dont make me laugh.
Again stressing my point: MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS HAS A INVERT RELATIONHIP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION IN THE SEASON FINALS.
Get real dude. There is currently as many GSL Code S Gold medals in WCS EU Premier as there is in Code S. And why would you assume someone like Goody will be in top 5? It would more likely be something like: Mvp, MMM, Stephano, Naniwa (who made it to Code S ro8 twice in a row) and Ret.
There is a pretty substantial difference between EU and NA, and quite of a few of the European players can beat Koreans, especially those Koreans who play in WCS NA.
Oh..? Is that your argument? Since there's as many GSL Code S golde models as there is in Code S KR right now; suddenly its justified? Is that how it works in your model? I guess if you watn to perceive it that way... We can see that clearly MVP + 4 Euros is clearly superior to Flash/Rain/Innovation/Parting/Life/Bomber since they have a combined 1 Gold Medall in total
Oh yes.. MMA..the washed up guy who hasnt done a thing for ages... Ahh who could forget Stephano..who put up a mere 50% winrate vs mid-tier koreans and got his butt kicked in Code S. Ret....ah yes ret...the guy who got completely demolished by Flash in MLG where it looked like a grand masters player vs a silver leaguer. Naniwa. I'll give you that. He's an unknown at the moment. Which is why I didnt list him. I respect his skill however.
If blizzard thinks MVP + Naniwa + 3 either washed up Koreans or Euros = 5 Top Tier Code S players They're delusional.
The points for non-WCS Tier 1 tournaments aren't that bad at all, I expected much worse. Good news for Dreamhack / NASL / Iron Squid / HomeStory Cup etc.
On April 17 2013 01:31 LighT. wrote: [quote] You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man.
I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take"
Nothing is stopping the Korean scene from holding their own weekend tournaments. GOM worked with IPL and learned how to hold something like that, so it's not Blizzard's fault if the Korean scene doesn't want to expand their own tournament scene.
They HAD that. GSL and OSL was their thing. But they decided to combined GSL/OSL for the co-operation of OGN and GomTV. (Fine, this is good..OGN and GomTV do have to work together) THen they decide to turn essentially...what was their korean league into: WCS:KR.
Look at MLG, they gained a tournament. MLG weekends are still going to be in place. But another tournament has been sprouted in MLG:WCS:NA IEM weekends are still going to be in place + Deramhack. ANother tournament been sprouted in IEM:WCS:EU
Now..the korean scene.. GSL + OSL, combined to make WCS:KR and they took away their high prize money pool, the prestige of winning those titles (the rich history or oov/Flash/boxer/MVP) and Korea gains nothing from it outside of having some games broadcasted on OGN.
What about GSTL? Maybe now its time for GOM to invest more on GSTL. I think team tournament can be interesting as much as WCS. If GOM can use those saved money from GSL to put it in GSTL, they could creat possible steady income for players.
GOMTV royally fucked up with GSTL. Like the # of failure is unprecedented in the sc e-sports scene thus far. They made a team league, yet they didnt help teams pick up sponsorships and impede growth of ESF teams. To be truthful I dont see them lasting too long and you may see a few new teams entering the SPL next year or the year after that.
With blizzards move of combining GSL/OSL, taking away its lustre, and calling it WCS:KR Basically blizzard is telling WCS:KR "You have a team leaghe, so youre fine, if you want something else, create a new one by yourself again from the ground up, **** yo couch"
On April 17 2013 01:23 LighT. wrote: [quote] Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man.
I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take"
Nothing is stopping the Korean scene from holding their own weekend tournaments. GOM worked with IPL and learned how to hold something like that, so it's not Blizzard's fault if the Korean scene doesn't want to expand their own tournament scene.
Actually there is something stopping them. SC2 is not very big in Korea. I think if such an event were profitable, they would undoubtedly have done it by now, but it clearly isn't.
Remember the ESV Weekly tournaments? The ESports Monthly Cup? Tournaments that offered a fair bit of money for up-and-coming Code B/A players and gave them just a bit more exposure, while at the same time providing some more quality entertainment and high level play for the spectators at home. You know what happened? They went under because almost nobody cared to watch them. GSL and StarLeague have the advantage of prestige which makes even more casual viewers tune in.
EU and NA should have half the KR points. Seeds into season finals should favor WCS KR much more, at least 8-10.
With the current basically same points system, for global finals, there will be less players coming out of WCS KR than NA or EU, because no koreans can consistently make RO8 in GSL or OSL without problems. But in EU or NA, several top koreans can probably make top 4 every time without much problem, they will squeeze out some of those better WCS KR players.
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man.
I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take"
Nothing is stopping the Korean scene from holding their own weekend tournaments. GOM worked with IPL and learned how to hold something like that, so it's not Blizzard's fault if the Korean scene doesn't want to expand their own tournament scene.
Actually there is something stopping them. SC2 is not very big in Korea. I think if such an event were profitable, they would undoubtedly have done it by now, but it clearly isn't.
Remember the ESV Weekly tournaments? The ESports Monthly Cup? Tournaments that offered a fair bit of money for up-and-coming Code B/A players and gave them just a bit more exposure, while at the same time providing some more quality entertainment and high level play for the spectators at home. You know what happened? They went under because almost nobody cared to watch them. GSL and StarLeague have the advantage of prestige which makes even more casual viewers tune in.
The same stuff happened to the NA equivalents. It's not a Korea-centric thing, but a global phenomena.
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man.
I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take"
Nothing is stopping the Korean scene from holding their own weekend tournaments. GOM worked with IPL and learned how to hold something like that, so it's not Blizzard's fault if the Korean scene doesn't want to expand their own tournament scene.
Actually there is something stopping them. SC2 is not very big in Korea. I think if such an event were profitable, they would undoubtedly have done it by now, but it clearly isn't.
Remember the ESV Weekly tournaments? The ESports Monthly Cup? Tournaments that offered a fair bit of money for up-and-coming Code B/A players and gave them just a bit more exposure, while at the same time providing some more quality entertainment and high level play for the spectators at home. You know what happened? They went under because almost nobody cared to watch them. GSL and StarLeague have the advantage of prestige which makes even more casual viewers tune in.
Whether people like it or not. Korea is the mecca of E-sports just like how it was with BW. Blizzard is trying to promote growth on the EU/NA scene when the Korean scene still needs A LOT of development and not self-sustaining at the moment. Above that, they took away the title of a tournament that was highly regarded by even the casual koreans of GSL.
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
No it fucking isn't for god sake.
Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after ti we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final.
So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments.
No....youre wrong. So completely wrong You arent getting my freakin point. WCS: NA = 5 Seeds WCS: KR = 5 Seeds Although 5=5 may look like balance. IT ISNT. Am I complaining that there's a WCS:NA? NO. So dont bring that up. In the Seasons Finals and Blizzcon, by equating the seeds for each region, you're dropping off the level of competition. Tell me that a 5th place WCS:KR player is equivalent in skill to a 5th place of a WCS: EU Player. WCS: Korea or...might as well call it WCS: Asia CLEARLY deserves some sort of advantage or perks because it's the most competitive BY FAR. But there isnt. A Flash or a Rain = Goody? Thorzain?? Dont make me laugh.
Again stressing my point: MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS HAS A INVERT RELATIONHIP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION IN THE SEASON FINALS.
Get real dude. There is currently as many GSL Code S Gold medals in WCS EU Premier as there is in Code S. And why would you assume someone like Goody will be in top 5? It would more likely be something like: Mvp, MMM, Stephano, Naniwa (who made it to Code S ro8 twice in a row) and Ret.
There is a pretty substantial difference between EU and NA, and quite of a few of the European players can beat Koreans, especially those Koreans who play in WCS NA.
Oh..? Is that your argument? Since there's as many GSL Code S golde models as there is in Code S KR right now; suddenly its justified? Is that how it works in your model? I guess if you watn to perceive it that way... We can see that clearly MVP + 4 Euros is clearly superior to Flash/Rain/Innovation/Parting/Life/Bomber since they have a combined 1 Gold Model in total
Oh yes.. MMA..the washed up guy who hasnt done a thing for ages... Ahh who could forget Stephano..who put up a mere 50% winrate vs mid-tier koreans and got his butt kicked in Code S. Ret....ah yes ret...the guy who got completely demolished by Flash in MLG where it looked like a grand masters player vs a silver leaguer. Naniwa. I'll give you that. He's an unknown at the moment. Which is why I didnt list him. I respect his skill however.
If blizzard thinks MVP + Naniwa + 3 either washed up Koreans or Euros = 5 Top Tier Code S players They're delusional.
MMA..the guy joint 8th in FGSTL points Stephano, who requalified for Code S from the Up and Downs ahead of players such as Lure, Trust, EffOrt, Rying, Center, Killer, NesTea, HerO, noblesse, LabyRinth, aLive, Bbyong, Sniper and ByuN Ret... the guy who finished in the same position as PartinG and viOLet at the first HotS SC2 tournament.
You are so RELENTLESSLY negative it's horrible. I hope you have so little pride for your country and region in all aspects of your life as you're displaying here.
On April 17 2013 02:10 Conti wrote: The situation really sucks for Koreans that decided to play in NA or EU and don't make it into Code S.
Just take MVPTails who tries to get into WCS EU right now. There's a realistic chance that he will not make it this season. But he's participated in the qualifiers, so that means that for the rest of the year he cannot even try to get into GSL or OSL. And there are not really any other tournaments (besides team leagues) in Korea. And sending him to a foreign event? Why would his team ever do that, when they can instead send a WCS player who needs some more WCS points to get into the Season/Global finals?
So there's practically nothing for him to do for a full year other than playing a few qualifiers and hoping to get in. That doesn't sound very fun at all.
Such bullshit.
He would not have qualified for code s kr in the next ten years anyway because he is mediocre in KR. Blizzard gave him a chance to get in a code s in another region. He and his team choose EU, but maybe he is not good enough for code s EU. every mediocre korean gets a chance thx to blizzard to compete in another code s outside of KR. If they dont get in code s, then u just have to get better like all the other players outside of KR.
On April 17 2013 01:35 starslayer wrote: Finally makes his name in the qualifier yesterday and now finds he's $1.5k richer, even if he doesn't win another map!
im sorry but if thats true thats just dumb thats a lot of money just to qualify i mean good for bunny and im gald there trying to help out the lesser known players but just cause you got into the tourney doesnt mean you should get money, you should need to actually win more to be placed into the money atleast top 8 not the quailfers but besides that cool i guess
24-32nd placers in Premier League get $1.5k... it's right there...
Crazy went 0-4 in the GSL WCS KR last week and will get his $1.5k...
ok and i think crazy shouldnt get money either 0-4 are you kidding me come on its saying its ok to loses
Well, might as well take it up with GOM then, since they've always paid out every spot in Code S, regardless of map score. I guess you could equate it to appearance fees in other sports.
i just edited my post forgot that he was in code s which is fine with me because he had to go through code A and make it into code s where bunny is getting 1.5 and just qualified, and plz understand i have nothing against bunny just that there paying a player that amount of money for just getting into the tourney
The lack of player turnover in EU/NA is a big problem to me. With this format its guaranteed that at least 16 of the 32 players in premier division will return the next season (although not necessarily the top 16). That puts a lot faith in the initial invites. If it turns out the invites were bad, at most 8 can be eliminated and 8 demoted to challenger per season. With only 2 seasons left in the year after the first, there's not even enough time for premier division to be purely results based by the end of the year.
On April 17 2013 01:31 LighT. wrote: [quote] You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man.
I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take"
Nothing is stopping the Korean scene from holding their own weekend tournaments. GOM worked with IPL and learned how to hold something like that, so it's not Blizzard's fault if the Korean scene doesn't want to expand their own tournament scene.
Actually there is something stopping them. SC2 is not very big in Korea. I think if such an event were profitable, they would undoubtedly have done it by now, but it clearly isn't.
Remember the ESV Weekly tournaments? The ESports Monthly Cup? Tournaments that offered a fair bit of money for up-and-coming Code B/A players and gave them just a bit more exposure, while at the same time providing some more quality entertainment and high level play for the spectators at home. You know what happened? They went under because almost nobody cared to watch them. GSL and StarLeague have the advantage of prestige which makes even more casual viewers tune in.
The same stuff happened to the NA equivalents. It's not a Korea-centric thing, but a global phenomena.
I can see where you're coming from with this, it's true that none of them did all too well, but at the same time they're not very comparable. Sometimes you would get ZOTACs or Playhem Dailies or Go4SC2 cups break several thousand concurrents even going back as far as 2011, back when Khaldor and ESLtv used to cast them. Meanwhile, I've rarely seen the Korean online tournaments of the same daily/weekly scale break more than a few hundred. So I think it's fair to say, it kind of is a Korean-related problem in this sense.
On April 17 2013 02:41 Nirel wrote: Does no one else care that code s is now only 20,000 dollars?
$20,000 + regional season final money
So if the Code S champion is the worst player in the regional finals, then he will only make $21,500. If you are confident that the Code S champion is actually the best player in the world, then he will make $60,000 by bringing down the season final championship.
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
No it fucking isn't for god sake.
Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after ti we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final.
So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments.
No....youre wrong. So completely wrong You arent getting my freakin point. WCS: NA = 5 Seeds WCS: KR = 5 Seeds Although 5=5 may look like balance. IT ISNT. Am I complaining that there's a WCS:NA? NO. So dont bring that up. In the Seasons Finals and Blizzcon, by equating the seeds for each region, you're dropping off the level of competition. Tell me that a 5th place WCS:KR player is equivalent in skill to a 5th place of a WCS: EU Player. WCS: Korea or...might as well call it WCS: Asia CLEARLY deserves some sort of advantage or perks because it's the most competitive BY FAR. But there isnt. A Flash or a Rain = Goody? Thorzain?? Dont make me laugh.
Again stressing my point: MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS HAS A INVERT RELATIONHIP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION IN THE SEASON FINALS.
Get real dude. There is currently as many GSL Code S Gold medals in WCS EU Premier as there is in Code S. And why would you assume someone like Goody will be in top 5? It would more likely be something like: Mvp, MMM, Stephano, Naniwa (who made it to Code S ro8 twice in a row) and Ret.
There is a pretty substantial difference between EU and NA, and quite of a few of the European players can beat Koreans, especially those Koreans who play in WCS NA.
Oh..? Is that your argument? Since there's as many GSL Code S golde models as there is in Code S KR right now; suddenly its justified? Is that how it works in your model? I guess if you watn to perceive it that way... We can see that clearly MVP + 4 Euros is clearly superior to Flash/Rain/Innovation/Parting/Life/Bomber since they have a combined 1 Gold Model in total
Oh yes.. MMA..the washed up guy who hasnt done a thing for ages... Ahh who could forget Stephano..who put up a mere 50% winrate vs mid-tier koreans and got his butt kicked in Code S. Ret....ah yes ret...the guy who got completely demolished by Flash in MLG where it looked like a grand masters player vs a silver leaguer. Naniwa. I'll give you that. He's an unknown at the moment. Which is why I didnt list him. I respect his skill however.
If blizzard thinks MVP + Naniwa + 3 either washed up Koreans or Euros = 5 Top Tier Code S players They're delusional.
MMA..the guy joint 8th in FGSTL points Stephano, who requalified for Code S from the Up and Downs ahead of players such as Lure, Trust, EffOrt, Rying, Center, Killer, NesTea, HerO, noblesse, LabyRinth, aLive, Bbyong, Sniper and ByuN Ret... the guy who finished in the same position as PartinG and viOLet at the first HotS SC2 tournament.
You are so RELENTLESSLY negative it's horrible. I hope you have so little pride for your country and region in all aspects of your life as you're displaying here.
So being 8th in FGSTL points means something now... I guess then Yonghwa should be Code S champion by that standards and during his peak, deserves to have his name put in place with the greats like MC/MVP/Leenock etc.
Stephano? Look at his up and Downs group...Lol.. Yonghwa wasnt even playing... his level of competition was MKP who he lost to.. And then the other two was Lure and Trust....Trust...a CJ no namer. and he still BARELY made it.
Finishing in the same position in a tournament doesnt make Ret a good player. Lol... I have every reason to complain about it because they are justifiable reasons to complain about. And no one has given me one justification of why I'm wrong thus far.
On April 17 2013 02:41 Nirel wrote: Does no one else care that code s is now only 20,000 dollars?
$20,000 + regional season final money
So if the Code S champion is the worst player in the regional finals, then he will only make $21,500. If you are confident that the Code S champion is actually the best player in the world, then he will make $60,000 by bringing down the season final championship.
I believe you mean season finals. But that's not GSL, that's Blizzard's Frankenstein tournament.
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt.
Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night.
As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man.
I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take"
Nothing is stopping the Korean scene from holding their own weekend tournaments. GOM worked with IPL and learned how to hold something like that, so it's not Blizzard's fault if the Korean scene doesn't want to expand their own tournament scene.
Actually there is something stopping them. SC2 is not very big in Korea. I think if such an event were profitable, they would undoubtedly have done it by now, but it clearly isn't.
Remember the ESV Weekly tournaments? The ESports Monthly Cup? Tournaments that offered a fair bit of money for up-and-coming Code B/A players and gave them just a bit more exposure, while at the same time providing some more quality entertainment and high level play for the spectators at home. You know what happened? They went under because almost nobody cared to watch them. GSL and StarLeague have the advantage of prestige which makes even more casual viewers tune in.
The same stuff happened to the NA equivalents. It's not a Korea-centric thing, but a global phenomena.
I can see where you're coming from with this, it's true that none of them did all too well, but at the same time they're not very comparable. Sometimes you would get ZOTACs or Playhem Dailies or Go4SC2 cups break several thousand concurrents even going back as far as 2011, back when Khaldor and ESLtv used to cast them. Meanwhile, I've rarely seen the Korean online tournaments of the same daily/weekly scale break more than a few hundred. So I think it's fair to say, it kind of is a Korean-related problem in this sense.
Well, that's a very big difference. Korea in 2011 still had Brood War on TV. This is the first year where you actually have high-level SC2 being promoted in Korea. It wasn't even until this agreement was reached that the GSL was broadcast on OGN. Having both GSL and Proleague on OGN is a big deal as far as making SC2 a bigger deal.
That said, I'm more of the opinion that it isn't really the foreign scene's duty to support the Korean scene. Most of those views on the ESV weeklies were international viewers. If SC2 isn't sustainable in Korea, then oh well, we'll still have the international scene where the viewers are.
On April 17 2013 02:41 Nirel wrote: Does no one else care that code s is now only 20,000 dollars?
$20,000 + regional season final money
So if the Code S champion is the worst player in the regional finals, then he will only make $21,500. If you are confident that the Code S champion is actually the best player in the world, then he will make $60,000 by bringing down the season final championship.
I believe you mean season finals. But that's not GSL, that's Blizzard's Frankenstein tournament.
GSL is now a part of Blizzard's tournament structure. To ignore the rest of the season is to simply ignore part of the prize.
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
No it fucking isn't for god sake.
Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after ti we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final.
So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments.
No....youre wrong. So completely wrong You arent getting my freakin point. WCS: NA = 5 Seeds WCS: KR = 5 Seeds Although 5=5 may look like balance. IT ISNT. Am I complaining that there's a WCS:NA? NO. So dont bring that up. In the Seasons Finals and Blizzcon, by equating the seeds for each region, you're dropping off the level of competition. Tell me that a 5th place WCS:KR player is equivalent in skill to a 5th place of a WCS: EU Player. WCS: Korea or...might as well call it WCS: Asia CLEARLY deserves some sort of advantage or perks because it's the most competitive BY FAR. But there isnt. A Flash or a Rain = Goody? Thorzain?? Dont make me laugh.
Again stressing my point: MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS HAS A INVERT RELATIONHIP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION IN THE SEASON FINALS.
Get real dude. There is currently as many GSL Code S Gold medals in WCS EU Premier as there is in Code S. And why would you assume someone like Goody will be in top 5? It would more likely be something like: Mvp, MMM, Stephano, Naniwa (who made it to Code S ro8 twice in a row) and Ret.
There is a pretty substantial difference between EU and NA, and quite of a few of the European players can beat Koreans, especially those Koreans who play in WCS NA.
Oh..? Is that your argument? Since there's as many GSL Code S golde models as there is in Code S KR right now; suddenly its justified? Is that how it works in your model? I guess if you watn to perceive it that way... We can see that clearly MVP + 4 Euros is clearly superior to Flash/Rain/Innovation/Parting/Life/Bomber since they have a combined 1 Gold Model in total
Oh yes.. MMA..the washed up guy who hasnt done a thing for ages... Ahh who could forget Stephano..who put up a mere 50% winrate vs mid-tier koreans and got his butt kicked in Code S. Ret....ah yes ret...the guy who got completely demolished by Flash in MLG where it looked like a grand masters player vs a silver leaguer. Naniwa. I'll give you that. He's an unknown at the moment. Which is why I didnt list him. I respect his skill however.
If blizzard thinks MVP + Naniwa + 3 either washed up Koreans or Euros = 5 Top Tier Code S players They're delusional.
MMA..the guy joint 8th in FGSTL points Stephano, who requalified for Code S from the Up and Downs ahead of players such as Lure, Trust, EffOrt, Rying, Center, Killer, NesTea, HerO, noblesse, LabyRinth, aLive, Bbyong, Sniper and ByuN Ret... the guy who finished in the same position as PartinG and viOLet at the first HotS SC2 tournament.
You are so RELENTLESSLY negative it's horrible. I hope you have so little pride for your country and region in all aspects of your life as you're displaying here.
Wow mate you have some serious issues, if you must make these wild assumptions about someone who's just presenting his case. Meanwhile, your own case fares much worse than his, since you look at a minuscule sample size of games.
First off, MMA has only played 2 games in GSTL. Granted, he won both of them, but how can you possibly draw any conclusions based on that? And Fantasy GSTL points? Really? That's the best you can conjure? Don't get me wrong, I like the guy, I want him to get back on top, I was a huge fan during his 2011 domination spree, but he's not been a top contender for so very long...
For Stephano, you choose to look at his Up and Down results. I could be nitpicky and tell you that he was virtually in a 4-player group with higher chances of advancement than his peers in 5 or 6-player groups, but I won't. Instead I'll point to the fact that so far in Major lan events in HotS he lost 0-3 in IEM and 0-3 in MLG. Let's say he's looking a bit shaky at the moment.
And as for Ret, I haven't seen enough of him to really make a call yet.
On April 17 2013 02:41 Nirel wrote: Does no one else care that code s is now only 20,000 dollars?
$20,000 + regional season final money
So if the Code S champion is the worst player in the regional finals, then he will only make $21,500. If you are confident that the Code S champion is actually the best player in the world, then he will make $60,000 by bringing down the season final championship.
I believe you mean season finals. But that's not GSL, that's Blizzard's Frankenstein tournament.
Who cares what the brand name is? If GSL was re-branded completely to be "Blizzard WCS Korea" and we just forgot about the GSL, would it actually make a difference in the scene?
I can see what blizzard is trying to do here and quite frankly, i think there plan will work. Code S and A everywhere with a big final between regional champions. It really looks good. Everything is gonna work out fine after a transition period im sure
I like the qualifiers very much allready. 30k+ viewers every day for amateurs that are being casted by pro's... thats fucking freakin amazing!
Yes, code s kr is not code s anymore, this because we have a world cup now This wcs format will be awesome.
On April 17 2013 02:52 govie wrote: Everyone should stop whining so much.
I can see what blizzard is trying to do here and quite frankly, i think there plan will work. Code S and A everywhere with a big final between regional champions. It really looks good. Everything is gonna work out fine after a transition period im sure
I like the qualifiers very much allready. 30k+ viewers every day for amateurs that are being casted by pro's... thats fucking freakin amazing!
Yes, code s kr is not code s anymore, this because we have a world cup now This wcs format will be awesome.
The result of this: Esports growth NA: increase Esports growth: EU: increase Esports growth KR: decrease substantially.
Blizzard: appease to global market Blizzard: does not perceive Korea as mecca of esports.
On April 17 2013 02:41 Nirel wrote: Does no one else care that code s is now only 20,000 dollars?
$20,000 + regional season final money
So if the Code S champion is the worst player in the regional finals, then he will only make $21,500. If you are confident that the Code S champion is actually the best player in the world, then he will make $60,000 by bringing down the season final championship.
I believe you mean season finals. But that's not GSL, that's Blizzard's Frankenstein tournament.
Who cares what the brand name is? If GSL was re-branded completely to be "Blizzard WCS Korea" and we just forgot about the GSL, would it actually make a difference in the scene?
Then you should read what Nirel wrote. We are talking about code S, not SC2 scene or even Korean SC2 scene. If you don't care, then you shouldn't reply.
On April 17 2013 02:41 Nirel wrote: Does no one else care that code s is now only 20,000 dollars?
$20,000 + regional season final money
So if the Code S champion is the worst player in the regional finals, then he will only make $21,500. If you are confident that the Code S champion is actually the best player in the world, then he will make $60,000 by bringing down the season final championship.
I believe you mean season finals. But that's not GSL, that's Blizzard's Frankenstein tournament.
GSL is now a part of Blizzard's tournament structure. To ignore the rest of the season is to simply ignore part of the prize.
Then it just means you don't care, some people do care, like Nirel. That's why he's asking whether there is someone like him.
On April 17 2013 01:44 LighT. wrote: [quote] As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly.
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man.
I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take"
Nothing is stopping the Korean scene from holding their own weekend tournaments. GOM worked with IPL and learned how to hold something like that, so it's not Blizzard's fault if the Korean scene doesn't want to expand their own tournament scene.
Actually there is something stopping them. SC2 is not very big in Korea. I think if such an event were profitable, they would undoubtedly have done it by now, but it clearly isn't.
Remember the ESV Weekly tournaments? The ESports Monthly Cup? Tournaments that offered a fair bit of money for up-and-coming Code B/A players and gave them just a bit more exposure, while at the same time providing some more quality entertainment and high level play for the spectators at home. You know what happened? They went under because almost nobody cared to watch them. GSL and StarLeague have the advantage of prestige which makes even more casual viewers tune in.
The same stuff happened to the NA equivalents. It's not a Korea-centric thing, but a global phenomena.
I can see where you're coming from with this, it's true that none of them did all too well, but at the same time they're not very comparable. Sometimes you would get ZOTACs or Playhem Dailies or Go4SC2 cups break several thousand concurrents even going back as far as 2011, back when Khaldor and ESLtv used to cast them. Meanwhile, I've rarely seen the Korean online tournaments of the same daily/weekly scale break more than a few hundred. So I think it's fair to say, it kind of is a Korean-related problem in this sense.
Well, that's a very big difference. Korea in 2011 still had Brood War on TV. This is the first year where you actually have high-level SC2 being promoted in Korea. It wasn't even until this agreement was reached that the GSL was broadcast on OGN. Having both GSL and Proleague on OGN is a big deal as far as making SC2 a bigger deal.
That said, I'm more of the opinion that it isn't really the foreign scene's duty to support the Korean scene. Most of those views on the ESV weeklies were international viewers. If SC2 isn't sustainable in Korea, then oh well, we'll still have the international scene where the viewers are.
See, I agree with you on the idea that it isn't the foreign scene's duty to support the Korean one. Ideally, Blizzard, GOM and OGN should all work together to make it happen. So far on Blizzard's side, things are looking pretty grim.
But here's the real kicker. You can't just say "if SC2 isn't sustainable in Korea then oh well". The reason you can't say this is because if SC2 isn't sustainable in Korea, you'll have a lot of Korean pros either retire or join western teams, where they will no longer benefit from the coaching and practice regimen of their Korean teamhouses. This will consequently lead to a steady decline in player skill at the top level, simply because they will no longer be taken care of with maids, chefs, coaches and all that.
Here's what I think: GSL pricepools so far have been hugely inflated and hoping that the game would catch on like BW did, but such growth hasn't happened, SC2 has stayed relatively niche. This was most apparent in the early open seasons with their huge price pools.
Along comes Blizzard with bags of money and a convenient format that gives them an excuse to downgrade the price pool, so of course they take it. The common audience reaction being "omg blizz u ruin our gsl", saves them a lot of trouble and face.
Since the GSL has an increased pricepool in the lower brackets, I see no reason why they couldn't do the same in the higher leagues. The fact that they CHOOSE NOT TO speaks volumes.
On April 17 2013 02:52 govie wrote: Everyone should stop whining so much.
I can see what blizzard is trying to do here and quite frankly, i think there plan will work. Code S and A everywhere with a big final between regional champions. It really looks good. Everything is gonna work out fine after a transition period im sure
I like the qualifiers very much allready. 30k+ viewers every day for amateurs that are being casted by pro's... thats fucking freakin amazing!
Yes, code s kr is not code s anymore, this because we have a world cup now This wcs format will be awesome.
I don't know what you are watching, but even if you add up all the streams, it's not 30k..maybe 20k at peaks...and there is overlap (especially today with NASL and ESL doing coverage)
On April 17 2013 02:52 govie wrote: Everyone should stop whining so much.
I can see what blizzard is trying to do here and quite frankly, i think there plan will work. Code S and A everywhere with a big final between regional champions. It really looks good. Everything is gonna work out fine after a transition period im sure
I like the qualifiers very much allready. 30k+ viewers every day for amateurs that are being casted by pro's... thats fucking freakin amazing!
Yes, code s kr is not code s anymore, this because we have a world cup now This wcs format will be awesome.
The result of this: Esports growth NA: increase Esports growth: EU: increase Esports growth KR: decrease substantially.
Blizzard: appease to global market Blizzard: does not perceive Korea as mecca of esports.
Agree with everything except :
1. Esports SC2 scene in korea is allready huge (sometimes growth is hard when u are allready so huge) 2. If i was blizzard i would see the world as the mecca of sc2 and not 1 region.
On April 17 2013 02:52 govie wrote: Everyone should stop whining so much.
I can see what blizzard is trying to do here and quite frankly, i think there plan will work. Code S and A everywhere with a big final between regional champions. It really looks good. Everything is gonna work out fine after a transition period im sure
I like the qualifiers very much allready. 30k+ viewers every day for amateurs that are being casted by pro's... thats fucking freakin amazing!
Yes, code s kr is not code s anymore, this because we have a world cup now This wcs format will be awesome.
I don't know what you are watching, but even if you add up all the streams, it's not 30k..not even 20k...and there is overlap (especially today with NASL and ESL doing coverage)
On April 17 2013 02:52 govie wrote: Everyone should stop whining so much.
I can see what blizzard is trying to do here and quite frankly, i think there plan will work. Code S and A everywhere with a big final between regional champions. It really looks good. Everything is gonna work out fine after a transition period im sure
I like the qualifiers very much allready. 30k+ viewers every day for amateurs that are being casted by pro's... thats fucking freakin amazing!
Yes, code s kr is not code s anymore, this because we have a world cup now This wcs format will be awesome.
The result of this: Esports growth NA: increase Esports growth: EU: increase Esports growth KR: decrease substantially.
Blizzard: appease to global market Blizzard: does not perceive Korea as mecca of esports.
Agree with everything except :
1. Esports SC2 scene in korea is allready huge (sometimes growth is hard when u are allready so huge) 2. If i was blizzard i would see the world as the mecca of sc2 and not 1 region.
SC2 is nowhere near "huge" in Korea, and has never truly been. StarCraft as a whole? Yes. But professional Brood War in Korea is now dead, so that's not relevant anymore.
The reason Blizzard should take special care of Korea is because they have the infrastructure that nurtures the best StarCraft players.
On April 17 2013 02:52 govie wrote: Everyone should stop whining so much.
I can see what blizzard is trying to do here and quite frankly, i think there plan will work. Code S and A everywhere with a big final between regional champions. It really looks good. Everything is gonna work out fine after a transition period im sure
I like the qualifiers very much allready. 30k+ viewers every day for amateurs that are being casted by pro's... thats fucking freakin amazing!
Yes, code s kr is not code s anymore, this because we have a world cup now This wcs format will be awesome.
The result of this: Esports growth NA: increase Esports growth: EU: increase Esports growth KR: decrease substantially.
Blizzard: appease to global market Blizzard: does not perceive Korea as mecca of esports.
Agree with everything except :
1. Esports SC2 scene in korea is allready huge (sometimes growth is hard when u are allready so huge) 2. If i was blizzard i would see the world as the mecca of sc2 and not 1 region.
See the thing is..right now.not a lot of people care about sc2...lol
It was growing with Kespa + ESF slowly and maturely coming together. with GSL + OSL + GSTL + SPL + WCS. Now they took GSL/OSL away and put a WCS tag on it. SPL is always going to be self-sustaining. GSTL..not so much. The korean scene isnt that great for sc2 right now..in all honesty. They need thr growth up to the old bw days and they were getting there slowly..but I think this sets them back a little bit.
Only chance of a new revival...would probably be the return of MBC: e-sports channel and the re-creation of MSL but thats a long shot.
On April 17 2013 02:52 govie wrote: Everyone should stop whining so much.
I can see what blizzard is trying to do here and quite frankly, i think there plan will work. Code S and A everywhere with a big final between regional champions. It really looks good. Everything is gonna work out fine after a transition period im sure
I like the qualifiers very much allready. 30k+ viewers every day for amateurs that are being casted by pro's... thats fucking freakin amazing!
Yes, code s kr is not code s anymore, this because we have a world cup now This wcs format will be awesome.
The result of this: Esports growth NA: increase Esports growth: EU: increase Esports growth KR: decrease substantially.
Blizzard: appease to global market Blizzard: does not perceive Korea as mecca of esports.
Agree with everything except :
1. Esports SC2 scene in korea is allready huge (sometimes growth is hard when u are allready so huge) 2. If i was blizzard i would see the world as the mecca of sc2 and not 1 region.
SC2 is nowhere near "huge" in Korea, and has never truly been. StarCraft as a whole? Yes. But professional Brood War in Korea is now dead, so that's not relevant anymore.
The reason Blizzard should take special care of Korea is because they have the infrastructure that nurtures the best StarCraft players.
The fact blizzard copied code s and code a seems to me they are nurturing korea. gsl has got everything they wanted out of this deal.
1) WCS Korea has a rotation of 24 players each season and WCS EU and NA only have a rotation of 8, which is totally BS 2) I find that winning a DH (big ones), for example, could have been more rewarding in term of points 3) Time to think about team leagues to pull again GSTL prestige and create some kind of GSTL for EU and NA
On April 17 2013 02:52 govie wrote: Everyone should stop whining so much.
I can see what blizzard is trying to do here and quite frankly, i think there plan will work. Code S and A everywhere with a big final between regional champions. It really looks good. Everything is gonna work out fine after a transition period im sure
I like the qualifiers very much allready. 30k+ viewers every day for amateurs that are being casted by pro's... thats fucking freakin amazing!
Yes, code s kr is not code s anymore, this because we have a world cup now This wcs format will be awesome.
The result of this: Esports growth NA: increase Esports growth: EU: increase Esports growth KR: decrease substantially.
Blizzard: appease to global market Blizzard: does not perceive Korea as mecca of esports.
Agree with everything except :
1. Esports SC2 scene in korea is allready huge (sometimes growth is hard when u are allready so huge) 2. If i was blizzard i would see the world as the mecca of sc2 and not 1 region.
SC2 is nowhere near "huge" in Korea, and has never truly been. StarCraft as a whole? Yes. But professional Brood War in Korea is now dead, so that's not relevant anymore.
The reason Blizzard should take special care of Korea is because they have the infrastructure that nurtures the best StarCraft players.
The fact blizzard copied code s and code a seems to me they are. gsl has got everything they wanted out of this deal.
It's not about the tournament system (although I agree it's a good one), it's about teamhouses and work ethic. An environment where players practice a shitload against really good players with coaches overlooking their games and helping them better themselves, with them being taken care of by managers, maids and chefs, in an environment that breeds cooperation and friendliness.
That's the real advantage right there that Koreans have over other places, and as I pointed out earlier, if the teams operate at too much of a loss then that will be gone.
EDIT:
Wait scratch that. What? You're saying just because Blizzard copied their tournament model and pasted it abroad, that means anything for the Korean scene? How is that even remotely helpful for them?
The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished.
So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so.
You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw.
Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man.
I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take"
Nothing is stopping the Korean scene from holding their own weekend tournaments. GOM worked with IPL and learned how to hold something like that, so it's not Blizzard's fault if the Korean scene doesn't want to expand their own tournament scene.
Actually there is something stopping them. SC2 is not very big in Korea. I think if such an event were profitable, they would undoubtedly have done it by now, but it clearly isn't.
Remember the ESV Weekly tournaments? The ESports Monthly Cup? Tournaments that offered a fair bit of money for up-and-coming Code B/A players and gave them just a bit more exposure, while at the same time providing some more quality entertainment and high level play for the spectators at home. You know what happened? They went under because almost nobody cared to watch them. GSL and StarLeague have the advantage of prestige which makes even more casual viewers tune in.
The same stuff happened to the NA equivalents. It's not a Korea-centric thing, but a global phenomena.
I can see where you're coming from with this, it's true that none of them did all too well, but at the same time they're not very comparable. Sometimes you would get ZOTACs or Playhem Dailies or Go4SC2 cups break several thousand concurrents even going back as far as 2011, back when Khaldor and ESLtv used to cast them. Meanwhile, I've rarely seen the Korean online tournaments of the same daily/weekly scale break more than a few hundred. So I think it's fair to say, it kind of is a Korean-related problem in this sense.
Well, that's a very big difference. Korea in 2011 still had Brood War on TV. This is the first year where you actually have high-level SC2 being promoted in Korea. It wasn't even until this agreement was reached that the GSL was broadcast on OGN. Having both GSL and Proleague on OGN is a big deal as far as making SC2 a bigger deal.
That said, I'm more of the opinion that it isn't really the foreign scene's duty to support the Korean scene. Most of those views on the ESV weeklies were international viewers. If SC2 isn't sustainable in Korea, then oh well, we'll still have the international scene where the viewers are.
See, I agree with you on the idea that it isn't the foreign scene's duty to support the Korean one. Ideally, Blizzard, GOM and OGN should all work together to make it happen. So far on Blizzard's side, things are looking pretty grim.
But here's the real kicker. You can't just say "if SC2 isn't sustainable in Korea then oh well". The reason you can't say this is because if SC2 isn't sustainable in Korea, you'll have a lot of Korean pros either retire or join western teams, where they will no longer benefit from the coaching and practice regimen of their Korean teamhouses. This will consequently lead to a steady decline in player skill at the top level, simply because they will no longer be taken care of with maids, chefs, coaches and all that.
You have to look at it from this angle as well.
That's a better angle to look at it from. In order for esport to actually be a thing, it needs to be a global thing, not just a Korea thing. If SC2 turns into BW 2.0, then Blizzard and every other esports organization has failed and failed big time. We're going to have to see what the sustainable model for Western esport is. We'll see if the West evolves Korean-style teamhouses, but I'm not sure we will.
Look at Olympic sports in the 70s and 80s: the West didn't look at East German practice regimens and say "we need some of that."
On April 17 2013 02:52 govie wrote: Everyone should stop whining so much.
I can see what blizzard is trying to do here and quite frankly, i think there plan will work. Code S and A everywhere with a big final between regional champions. It really looks good. Everything is gonna work out fine after a transition period im sure
I like the qualifiers very much allready. 30k+ viewers every day for amateurs that are being casted by pro's... thats fucking freakin amazing!
Yes, code s kr is not code s anymore, this because we have a world cup now This wcs format will be awesome.
I don't know what you are watching, but even if you add up all the streams, it's not 30k..not even 20k...and there is overlap (especially today with NASL and ESL doing coverage)
yesterday 30k+ viewers! im sure dude
Haha, let me do the math for this very moment:
NASL 11.4k WCS Eu 6.9k sc2tv.ru 4.1k mori 2.9 EmpireTVorg 2.1k ESL.TV pl 1.5k ESL France 1.4k + 7 other streams including BaseTradeTV (<3) 0.8k
On April 17 2013 02:52 govie wrote: Everyone should stop whining so much.
I can see what blizzard is trying to do here and quite frankly, i think there plan will work. Code S and A everywhere with a big final between regional champions. It really looks good. Everything is gonna work out fine after a transition period im sure
I like the qualifiers very much allready. 30k+ viewers every day for amateurs that are being casted by pro's... thats fucking freakin amazing!
Yes, code s kr is not code s anymore, this because we have a world cup now This wcs format will be awesome.
I don't know what you are watching, but even if you add up all the streams, it's not 30k..not even 20k...and there is overlap (especially today with NASL and ESL doing coverage)
yesterday 30k+ viewers! im sure dude
At the least. In terms of unique viewers over the whole event, probably more like 50+
On April 17 2013 02:52 govie wrote: Everyone should stop whining so much.
I can see what blizzard is trying to do here and quite frankly, i think there plan will work. Code S and A everywhere with a big final between regional champions. It really looks good. Everything is gonna work out fine after a transition period im sure
I like the qualifiers very much allready. 30k+ viewers every day for amateurs that are being casted by pro's... thats fucking freakin amazing!
Yes, code s kr is not code s anymore, this because we have a world cup now This wcs format will be awesome.
I don't know what you are watching, but even if you add up all the streams, it's not 30k..not even 20k...and there is overlap (especially today with NASL and ESL doing coverage)
yesterday 30k+ viewers! im sure dude
Haha, let me do the math for this very moment:
NASL 11.4k WCS Eu 6.9k sc2tv.ru 4.1k mori 2.9 EmpireTVorg 2.1k ESL.TV pl 1.5k ESL France 1.4k + 7 other streams including BaseTradeTV (<3) 0.8k
On April 17 2013 02:52 govie wrote: Everyone should stop whining so much.
I can see what blizzard is trying to do here and quite frankly, i think there plan will work. Code S and A everywhere with a big final between regional champions. It really looks good. Everything is gonna work out fine after a transition period im sure
I like the qualifiers very much allready. 30k+ viewers every day for amateurs that are being casted by pro's... thats fucking freakin amazing!
Yes, code s kr is not code s anymore, this because we have a world cup now This wcs format will be awesome.
The result of this: Esports growth NA: increase Esports growth: EU: increase Esports growth KR: decrease substantially.
Blizzard: appease to global market Blizzard: does not perceive Korea as mecca of esports.
Agree with everything except :
1. Esports SC2 scene in korea is allready huge (sometimes growth is hard when u are allready so huge) 2. If i was blizzard i would see the world as the mecca of sc2 and not 1 region.
SC2 is nowhere near "huge" in Korea, and has never truly been. StarCraft as a whole? Yes. But professional Brood War in Korea is now dead, so that's not relevant anymore.
The reason Blizzard should take special care of Korea is because they have the infrastructure that nurtures the best StarCraft players.
The fact blizzard copied code s and code a seems to me they are nurturing korea. gsl has got everything they wanted out of this deal.
eh I don't really think so, because gsl is probably going to lose a good chunk of dough due to the commitment for free 720 broadcast and various players moving to other WCS (example: team liquid and EG korean players, such as hero and taeja and jaedong)
I don't know the price of gsl stuff formerly or now but if you take 20,000 people/year paying 50 bucks for gsl (which I think it it was like 15-20+ USD per season right? Or a year pass for every gom content as like 100?) that is a nice 1,000,000 dollars from user subscriptions (before any other stuff, like licensing fees to blizzard or taxes or whatnot)
I wouldn't say papa blizzard stepping in for gom necessarily is going to bring as much revenue as gom could potentially had from selling their passes to the sweet foreign market, with the free 720p broadcast, popular players leaving gsl, etc etc
definitely early to say gsl could get everything they wanted out of the deal.
only 8 qualifying for each new season in EU and NA is disappointing for sure. imo the current GSL format is the absolute perfect tournament format, nothing should be changed and everything should just be copied. you could maaaaybe make the finals bo9, but that's really the only change i'd even consider a possibility.
also, that's a pretty big cut into the GSL prizepool, which is very disappointing to see as well, and it's also pretty dumb as more money for GSL would likely encourage more Koreans to stay in Korea.
On April 17 2013 02:52 govie wrote: Everyone should stop whining so much.
I can see what blizzard is trying to do here and quite frankly, i think there plan will work. Code S and A everywhere with a big final between regional champions. It really looks good. Everything is gonna work out fine after a transition period im sure
I like the qualifiers very much allready. 30k+ viewers every day for amateurs that are being casted by pro's... thats fucking freakin amazing!
Yes, code s kr is not code s anymore, this because we have a world cup now This wcs format will be awesome.
I don't know what you are watching, but even if you add up all the streams, it's not 30k..not even 20k...and there is overlap (especially today with NASL and ESL doing coverage)
yesterday 30k+ viewers! im sure dude
Haha, let me do the math for this very moment:
NASL 11.4k WCS Eu 6.9k sc2tv.ru 4.1k mori 2.9 EmpireTVorg 2.1k ESL.TV pl 1.5k ESL France 1.4k + 7 other streams including BaseTradeTV (<3) 0.8k
31.2k watching right now.
Yes. And we have barely reached RO32.
And its the god damn qualifiers. Pro tip: people fucking love to watch SC2. Best players. Bad players. Fun players. Mean players. We all love to watch SC2 a whole bunch.
On April 17 2013 03:19 Schelim wrote: only 8 qualifying for each new season in EU and NA is disappointing for sure. imo the current GSL format is the absolute perfect tournament format, nothing should be changed and everything should just be copied. you could maaaaybe make the finals bo9, but that's really the only change i'd even consider a possibility.
also, that's a pretty big cut into the GSL prizepool, which is very disappointing to see as well, and it's also pretty dumb as more money for GSL would likely encourage more Koreans to stay in Korea.
They will change stuff up. Right now I think they want to provide stability and then switch it up if it gets to stale. I like the current system, since it provides a solid reason to work hard to get into Code S NA and EU.
On April 17 2013 03:19 Schelim wrote: only 8 qualifying for each new season in EU and NA is disappointing for sure. imo the current GSL format is the absolute perfect tournament format, nothing should be changed and everything should just be copied. you could maaaaybe make the finals bo9, but that's really the only change i'd even consider a possibility.
also, that's a pretty big cut into the GSL prizepool, which is very disappointing to see as well, and it's also pretty dumb as more money for GSL would likely encourage more Koreans to stay in Korea.
They will change stuff up. Right now I think they want to provide stability and then switch it up if it gets to stale. I like the current system, since it provides a solid reason to work hard to get into Code S NA and EU.
Are you ignoring the fact that every Korean is now in a worse position considering even a Code S win only gives 20k? And don't give me this "oh if they're the best they'll just win the season finals too." You and I both know the skill gap at the top is tiny, and people rarely have repeat wins. What this does is make it a lot harder for a Code S contender to actually justify a big tournament win, since even winning Code S isn't a huge deal anymore what with the reduced prize pool. Now they have to win two tournaments to get slightly more money. That's stupid and awful.
On April 17 2013 02:52 govie wrote: Everyone should stop whining so much.
I can see what blizzard is trying to do here and quite frankly, i think there plan will work. Code S and A everywhere with a big final between regional champions. It really looks good. Everything is gonna work out fine after a transition period im sure
I like the qualifiers very much allready. 30k+ viewers every day for amateurs that are being casted by pro's... thats fucking freakin amazing!
Yes, code s kr is not code s anymore, this because we have a world cup now This wcs format will be awesome.
I don't know what you are watching, but even if you add up all the streams, it's not 30k..not even 20k...and there is overlap (especially today with NASL and ESL doing coverage)
yesterday 30k+ viewers! im sure dude
Haha, let me do the math for this very moment:
NASL 11.4k WCS Eu 6.9k sc2tv.ru 4.1k mori 2.9 EmpireTVorg 2.1k ESL.TV pl 1.5k ESL France 1.4k + 7 other streams including BaseTradeTV (<3) 0.8k
On April 17 2013 02:52 govie wrote: Everyone should stop whining so much.
I can see what blizzard is trying to do here and quite frankly, i think there plan will work. Code S and A everywhere with a big final between regional champions. It really looks good. Everything is gonna work out fine after a transition period im sure
I like the qualifiers very much allready. 30k+ viewers every day for amateurs that are being casted by pro's... thats fucking freakin amazing!
Yes, code s kr is not code s anymore, this because we have a world cup now This wcs format will be awesome.
I don't know what you are watching, but even if you add up all the streams, it's not 30k..not even 20k...and there is overlap (especially today with NASL and ESL doing coverage)
yesterday 30k+ viewers! im sure dude
Haha, let me do the math for this very moment:
NASL 11.4k WCS Eu 6.9k sc2tv.ru 4.1k mori 2.9 EmpireTVorg 2.1k ESL.TV pl 1.5k ESL France 1.4k + 7 other streams including BaseTradeTV (<3) 0.8k
31.2k watching right now.
thx:D
You're welcome. I'm watching the numbers and they are going up.
Also notice how nice they are spread out over the national streams - this is a great indicator of sc2 doing well in different countries.
So unless I am mistaken only 8 players can qualify per season so wow this is really retarded. Thought they were making it just like GSL but I guess not zzzzz.
On April 17 2013 02:41 Nirel wrote: Does no one else care that code s is now only 20,000 dollars?
$20,000 + regional season final money
So if the Code S champion is the worst player in the regional finals, then he will only make $21,500. If you are confident that the Code S champion is actually the best player in the world, then he will make $60,000 by bringing down the season final championship.
I believe you mean season finals. But that's not GSL, that's Blizzard's Frankenstein tournament.
GSL is now a part of Blizzard's tournament structure. To ignore the rest of the season is to simply ignore part of the prize.
There was something special about the GSL, it was all about preparation. Season finals will be weekend tournaments. There's a huge difference in how much a GSL final means now, when the runner up will just get another chance at a bigger payday in a couple of weeks in a weekend tournament. Hell, with bracket luck, he may never even have to play the guy who beat him in the finals.
On April 17 2013 03:34 blade55555 wrote: So unless I am mistaken only 8 players can qualify per season so wow this is really retarded. Thought they were making it just like GSL but I guess not zzzzz.
They will. Its just first season. They have to start somewhere ad as i see it. It's lookin good man!!:D
People wayyy too fixated on prize pool. The real money is in sponsors, where the WCS does really well is highlighting players that are unknown right now, they can make livable salaries off of these. Korean may get a lot of money in other ways. Also EU and NA players have big opportunities.
Hell I bet if PandaTank qualified he would get a team based off the WCS! So there may be other ways players will make money then prizes.
On April 17 2013 03:34 blade55555 wrote: So unless I am mistaken only 8 players can qualify per season so wow this is really retarded. Thought they were making it just like GSL but I guess not zzzzz.
They will. Its just first season. They have to start somewhere ad as i see it. It's lookin good man!!:D
Well for the next seasons the qualifiers will only allow 8 players in per season, that's what they've stated and showed in their graphics anyway.
Talking about too many koreans, well remember WCG's, I mean it was usually something about 2-3 koreans, they did dominate, but most of the other games were boring and not worth watching, people just checked the results to see if their favorites have dropped any maps or no. I'm in for more better players, doesn't matter where they are from. The thing I don't like is BO1 in qualifiers, I mean some strange cheese might end some strong players run, because the game itself allows it. I know it's time consuming, but what about blizzard creating some in-game brackets and extend qualifiers (why not? why should they be played in one day?), though they have a lot of chances overall, it's 4 qualifiers for each season. But overall I'm looking forward for the tourney, it should be super fun.
There's smaller rotation in EU/NA because theres less talented players in EU/NA than in korea. Theres no point to change like 20 players in EU/NA when in those regions we have like 30-40 good players at all.
With 750 points from Tier 1 tournaments, which is as much as 3rd place finish in Code S, Koreans on foreign teams have such a big advantage. Not only do they get to play in the easier NA league, they get a lot of extra points from Dreamhack etc which their teams will always send them to, but Koreans in Korean teams won't always be able to attend.
Play in an somewhat invite-only weekend tournament for MLG: 1st prize: 25k Play in a 2-3 month tournament where all of Korea's players are invited in a long tournament: 1st prize: 20k
On April 17 2013 04:46 LighT. wrote: Play in an somewhat invite-only weekend tournament for MLG: 1st prize: 25k Play in a 2-3 month tournament where all of Korea's players are invited in a long tournament: 1st prize: 20k
seems legit.
Play in a partially-qualified, partially-invite weekend tournament for IPL 1st prize: 40k Play in a 2-3 month tournament where all of Korea's players are invited in a long tournament: 1st prize: 38k
Plus, that's 21.5k guaranteed if the GSL champion just forfeits all of the matches.
On April 17 2013 04:46 LighT. wrote: Play in an somewhat invite-only weekend tournament for MLG: 1st prize: 25k Play in a 2-3 month tournament where all of Korea's players are invited in a long tournament: 1st prize: 20k
seems legit.
For a pro player it is better to have some confidence about his possible earnings. If someone manages to get into ro8 codeS and into the season finals - that's 11k $ each season without winning anything, earned just by being consistent.
And with 3+ seasons each year it should be enough to make a decent living almost anywhere in the world.
Points system is super, super terrible. Like, super unbelievably terrible. I could probably dedicate an article to picking apart all of the absolutely stupid things about it, but I won't (maybe), because it's not like going to all of that effort would change anything v_v
Every player currently in Code B (esp Korean) is completely fucked over, and every player in Code S is laughing, no questions asked, because Blizzard refused to be intelligent and creative with their point allocations and just went for the brain-dead approach that ignored the nature of tiering. Incredibly frustrating. I feel for the progamers who have to put up with it.
Here's something else to put it into perspective: A player who wins a GSL then immediately drops out of the GSL still has a decent shot of getting to the season final; if they win that then disappears from the face of the earth (retires even) they will still have more points than a player who gets 4 consecutive 2nd place finishes in the GSL. Also a player who goes 0-4 in the Code S Ro32 and 0-2 in their first Code A match to fall straight to Code B, walks away with equal amounts of points as the players who won every single Code A match that season.
I wonder what qualifies as tier 1 and tier 2 non-WCS. If Dreamhack is tier 1 (and it really should be), they might just solve their problem of top-tier Korean attendance. As the point distribution for a tier 1 seems quite good. Although, the next one seems to be solving this problem already but there is still much to be desired in that regard from them.
==
on another note, with the current trajectory of qualified players and new knowledge on the point distribution...
I'm sticking to 14/16 Korean at the Grand Finals for Blizzcon =p. Maybe a full 16.
On April 17 2013 05:17 YourAdHere wrote: Code S in NA/EU gets 24 new players a season. Code A gets 24 ex Code S, ranks 9-16 Code A and top 8 Code B for a prolonged up-down tournament.
Not sure what the complaint regarding player flow is.
Only 8 new players can qualify at all. For example if you are in code A only 8 of those players will be knocked out instead of half like GSL. So only 8 new players can ever qualify at a time when it should be 16.
Hope I was able to clarify for you what everyone is talking about ^_^.
On April 17 2013 05:17 YourAdHere wrote: Code S in NA/EU gets 24 new players a season. Code A gets 24 ex Code S, ranks 9-16 Code A and top 8 Code B for a prolonged up-down tournament.
Not sure what the complaint regarding player flow is.
Only 8 new players can qualify at all. For example if you are in code A only 8 of those players will be knocked out instead of half like GSL. So only 8 new players can ever qualify at a time when it should be 16.
Hope I was able to clarify for you what everyone is talking about ^_^.
But that's because Korea has a tremendous depth of semi-pro players whereas EU and NA simply doesn't.
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
No it fucking isn't for god sake.
Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after ti we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final.
So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments.
No....youre wrong. So completely wrong You arent getting my freakin point. WCS: NA = 5 Seeds WCS: KR = 5 Seeds Although 5=5 may look like balance. IT ISNT. Am I complaining that there's a WCS:NA? NO. So dont bring that up. In the Seasons Finals and Blizzcon, by equating the seeds for each region, you're dropping off the level of competition. Tell me that a 5th place WCS:KR player is equivalent in skill to a 5th place of a WCS: EU Player. WCS: Korea or...might as well call it WCS: Asia CLEARLY deserves some sort of advantage or perks because it's the most competitive BY FAR. But there isnt. A Flash or a Rain = Goody? Thorzain?? Dont make me laugh.
Again stressing my point: MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS HAS A INVERT RELATIONHIP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION IN THE SEASON FINALS.
Get real dude. There is currently as many GSL Code S Gold medals in WCS EU Premier as there is in Code S. And why would you assume someone like Goody will be in top 5? It would more likely be something like: Mvp, MMM, Stephano, Naniwa (who made it to Code S ro8 twice in a row) and Ret.
There is a pretty substantial difference between EU and NA, and quite of a few of the European players can beat Koreans, especially those Koreans who play in WCS NA.
Oh..? Is that your argument? Since there's as many GSL Code S golde models as there is in Code S KR right now; suddenly its justified? Is that how it works in your model? I guess if you watn to perceive it that way... We can see that clearly MVP + 4 Euros is clearly superior to Flash/Rain/Innovation/Parting/Life/Bomber since they have a combined 1 Gold Medall in total
Oh yes.. MMA..the washed up guy who hasnt done a thing for ages... Ahh who could forget Stephano..who put up a mere 50% winrate vs mid-tier koreans and got his butt kicked in Code S. Ret....ah yes ret...the guy who got completely demolished by Flash in MLG where it looked like a grand masters player vs a silver leaguer. Naniwa. I'll give you that. He's an unknown at the moment. Which is why I didnt list him. I respect his skill however.
If blizzard thinks MVP + Naniwa + 3 either washed up Koreans or Euros = 5 Top Tier Code S players They're delusional.
I am not saying that Mvp, Naniwa or Stephano is equal to Flash, Rain, Innovation, Parting, Life or Bomber. What i am saying is that Besides those 6 players and Leenock, there is no one in Korea that top European players can't beat.
I would never complete count Mvp out - he may not be as good as he used to but he has been slumping before and managed to get back in the game. Same goes for Stephano. He is not doing quite as well as he used to, but he was proven several times that he can beat anyone, including Bomber in the finals of Lone Star Clash 2. MMA might be more of a wildcard, but i don't see why he should not be able to step up his game. especially with the new Medivac buff. Let me just remind you that Bomber was at one point considered the best at TvT in the world, but went into a slump much like MMA. Despite Bombers long slump, and the fact that he is among the most inconsistent progamers in SC2, you still think that he is miles ahead of MMA?
While those playing in WCS EU may not be top notch, there is quite a few who can take games of Koreans, and i'd say that top 5 in EU is atleast equal to low Code S.
On April 17 2013 04:59 MCXD wrote: Points system is super, super terrible. Like, super unbelievably terrible. I could probably dedicate an article to picking apart all of the absolutely stupid things about it, but I won't (maybe), because it's not like going to all of that effort would change anything v_v
Every player currently in Code B (esp Korean) is completely fucked over, and every player in Code S is laughing, no questions asked, because Blizzard refused to be intelligent and creative with their point allocations and just went for the brain-dead approach that ignored the nature of tiering. Incredibly frustrating. I feel for the progamers who have to put up with it.
Here's something else to put it into perspective: A player who wins a GSL then immediately drops out of the GSL still has a decent shot of getting to the season final; if they win that then disappears from the face of the earth (retires even) they will still have more points than a player who gets 4 consecutive 2nd place finishes in the GSL. Also a player who goes 0-4 in the Code S Ro32 and 0-2 in their first Code A match to fall straight to Code B, walks away with equal amounts of points as the players who won every single Code A match that season.
Consistency, eh? That makes me laugh.
Youre misreading the point systems A player who wins a GSL gets 1.5k points. He'd also have to win the seasons finals = 3k points and then he's pretty much locked in for grand finals
Also whoever qualifies for Code S from Code A will automatically get at least the Ro32 points too... The point system is not that bad Its the money and the allocation of seeds which is the problem.
I wish they'd adhere more to the actual GSL system as they alluded to in the first announcements, especially when it comes to the qualifiers, Code A, and the Up and Downs. All these exceptions and different brandings for the various regions waters down the idea of this global system.
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
No it fucking isn't for god sake.
Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after ti we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final.
So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments.
No....youre wrong. So completely wrong You arent getting my freakin point. WCS: NA = 5 Seeds WCS: KR = 5 Seeds Although 5=5 may look like balance. IT ISNT. Am I complaining that there's a WCS:NA? NO. So dont bring that up. In the Seasons Finals and Blizzcon, by equating the seeds for each region, you're dropping off the level of competition. Tell me that a 5th place WCS:KR player is equivalent in skill to a 5th place of a WCS: EU Player. WCS: Korea or...might as well call it WCS: Asia CLEARLY deserves some sort of advantage or perks because it's the most competitive BY FAR. But there isnt. A Flash or a Rain = Goody? Thorzain?? Dont make me laugh.
Again stressing my point: MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS HAS A INVERT RELATIONHIP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION IN THE SEASON FINALS.
Get real dude. There is currently as many GSL Code S Gold medals in WCS EU Premier as there is in Code S. And why would you assume someone like Goody will be in top 5? It would more likely be something like: Mvp, MMM, Stephano, Naniwa (who made it to Code S ro8 twice in a row) and Ret.
There is a pretty substantial difference between EU and NA, and quite of a few of the European players can beat Koreans, especially those Koreans who play in WCS NA.
Oh..? Is that your argument? Since there's as many GSL Code S golde models as there is in Code S KR right now; suddenly its justified? Is that how it works in your model? I guess if you watn to perceive it that way... We can see that clearly MVP + 4 Euros is clearly superior to Flash/Rain/Innovation/Parting/Life/Bomber since they have a combined 1 Gold Medall in total
Oh yes.. MMA..the washed up guy who hasnt done a thing for ages... Ahh who could forget Stephano..who put up a mere 50% winrate vs mid-tier koreans and got his butt kicked in Code S. Ret....ah yes ret...the guy who got completely demolished by Flash in MLG where it looked like a grand masters player vs a silver leaguer. Naniwa. I'll give you that. He's an unknown at the moment. Which is why I didnt list him. I respect his skill however.
If blizzard thinks MVP + Naniwa + 3 either washed up Koreans or Euros = 5 Top Tier Code S players They're delusional.
I am not saying that Mvp, Naniwa or Stephano is equal to Flash, Rain, Innovation, Parting, Life or Bomber. What i am saying is that Besides those 6 players and Leenock, there is no one in Korea that top European players can't beat.
I would never complete count Mvp out - he may not be as good as he used to but he has been slumping before and managed to get back in the game. Same goes for Stephano. He is not doing quite as well as he used to, but he was proven several times that he can beat anyone, including Bomber in the finals of Lone Star Clash 2. MMA might be more of a wildcard, but i don't see why he should not be able to step up his game. especially with the new Medivac buff. Let me just remind you that Bomber was at one point considered the best at TvT in the world, but went into a slump much like MMA. Despite Bombers long slump, and the fact that he is among the most inconsistent progamers in SC2, you still think that he is miles ahead of MMA?
While those playing in WCS EU may not be top notch, there is quite a few who can take games of Koreans, and i'd say that top 5 in EU is atleast equal to low Code S.
Last time I remember....all the euros dropped to Code B from GSL and the one Code S player who's playing for WCS EU (MC) isnt even in this season. I think youre seriously overrating the EU players (and seeing youre from denmark..I can understand the little bias) if you think they're at least low Code S. The most generous thing to say is that at best they're low code S material. That still doesnt justify giving them equal # of seedings as the koreans
Dang I was holding out hope that they would give the Korean seasons a higher prize pool but nope this is just pretty freaking horrible. Korea gets literally nothing for this. This was pure charity for EU/NA. Korea already had these events. In fact they had more of and better versions of these events before Blizzard stepped in. There was most likely going to be 2 OSLs and there would have been an extra GSL. So they are losing 2 events. They are also losing a bunch of prize money per event.
This looks great! I personally admire Blizzard's decision to balance the Korea vs. Rest-of-the-world prize money distribution. Though I can also understand the arguments that this might skew the player pool in a way that results to unoptimal participant lists for the final tournaments.
On April 17 2013 05:51 JJH777 wrote: Dang I was holding out hope that they would give the Korean seasons a higher prize pool but nope this is just pretty freaking horrible. Korea gets literally nothing for this. This was pure charity for EU/NA. Korea already had these events. In fact they had more of and better versions of these events before Blizzard stepped in. There was most likely going to be 2 OSLs and there would have been an extra GSL. So they are losing 2 events. They are also losing a bunch of prize money per event.
How do you know that Blizzard caused there to be less events over all? Although there was a delay in the new season of GSL, that was mostly due to HotS. Considering that last year there were way to many events, this may be the exact number they planed to run this year.
On April 17 2013 05:51 JJH777 wrote: Dang I was holding out hope that they would give the Korean seasons a higher prize pool but nope this is just pretty freaking horrible. Korea gets literally nothing for this. This was pure charity for EU/NA. Korea already had these events. In fact they had more of and better versions of these events before Blizzard stepped in. There was most likely going to be 2 OSLs and there would have been an extra GSL. So they are losing 2 events. They are also losing a bunch of prize money per event.
How do you know that Blizzard caused there to be less events over all? Although there was a delay in the new season of GSL, that was mostly due to HotS. Considering that last year there were way to many events, this may be the exact number they planed to run this year.
They already announced that they were going to do 4 GSLs. Now they are doing 3. That's one of the main reasons they let people get a refund on their yearly ticket.
On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION?
No it fucking isn't for god sake.
Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after ti we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final.
So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments.
No....youre wrong. So completely wrong You arent getting my freakin point. WCS: NA = 5 Seeds WCS: KR = 5 Seeds Although 5=5 may look like balance. IT ISNT. Am I complaining that there's a WCS:NA? NO. So dont bring that up. In the Seasons Finals and Blizzcon, by equating the seeds for each region, you're dropping off the level of competition. Tell me that a 5th place WCS:KR player is equivalent in skill to a 5th place of a WCS: EU Player. WCS: Korea or...might as well call it WCS: Asia CLEARLY deserves some sort of advantage or perks because it's the most competitive BY FAR. But there isnt. A Flash or a Rain = Goody? Thorzain?? Dont make me laugh.
Again stressing my point: MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS HAS A INVERT RELATIONHIP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION IN THE SEASON FINALS.
Get real dude. There is currently as many GSL Code S Gold medals in WCS EU Premier as there is in Code S. And why would you assume someone like Goody will be in top 5? It would more likely be something like: Mvp, MMM, Stephano, Naniwa (who made it to Code S ro8 twice in a row) and Ret.
There is a pretty substantial difference between EU and NA, and quite of a few of the European players can beat Koreans, especially those Koreans who play in WCS NA.
Oh..? Is that your argument? Since there's as many GSL Code S golde models as there is in Code S KR right now; suddenly its justified? Is that how it works in your model? I guess if you watn to perceive it that way... We can see that clearly MVP + 4 Euros is clearly superior to Flash/Rain/Innovation/Parting/Life/Bomber since they have a combined 1 Gold Medall in total
Oh yes.. MMA..the washed up guy who hasnt done a thing for ages... Ahh who could forget Stephano..who put up a mere 50% winrate vs mid-tier koreans and got his butt kicked in Code S. Ret....ah yes ret...the guy who got completely demolished by Flash in MLG where it looked like a grand masters player vs a silver leaguer. Naniwa. I'll give you that. He's an unknown at the moment. Which is why I didnt list him. I respect his skill however.
If blizzard thinks MVP + Naniwa + 3 either washed up Koreans or Euros = 5 Top Tier Code S players They're delusional.
I am not saying that Mvp, Naniwa or Stephano is equal to Flash, Rain, Innovation, Parting, Life or Bomber. What i am saying is that Besides those 6 players and Leenock, there is no one in Korea that top European players can't beat.
I would never complete count Mvp out - he may not be as good as he used to but he has been slumping before and managed to get back in the game. Same goes for Stephano. He is not doing quite as well as he used to, but he was proven several times that he can beat anyone, including Bomber in the finals of Lone Star Clash 2. MMA might be more of a wildcard, but i don't see why he should not be able to step up his game. especially with the new Medivac buff. Let me just remind you that Bomber was at one point considered the best at TvT in the world, but went into a slump much like MMA. Despite Bombers long slump, and the fact that he is among the most inconsistent progamers in SC2, you still think that he is miles ahead of MMA?
While those playing in WCS EU may not be top notch, there is quite a few who can take games of Koreans, and i'd say that top 5 in EU is atleast equal to low Code S.
Last time I remember....all the euros dropped to Code B from GSL and the one Code S player who's playing for WCS EU (MC) isnt even in this season. I think youre seriously overrating the EU players (and seeing youre from denmark..I can understand the little bias) if you think they're at least low Code S. The most generous thing to say is that at best they're low code S material. That still doesnt justify giving them equal # of seedings as the koreans
I think that it is partly true that it doesn't justify the amount of seeds given to EU and NA. However, it would cause problems when you had to decide prize pool and seeds between EU and NA if they were not even. EU has the better players by quite a margin, but NA may be harder because they have more Koreans, and because some of the better EU players are playing in NA. So which one should get the higher prize pool? And should that prize pool change every season depending on the number of Koreans? I believe the reason to give equal prize pools is because the goal is to close the gap, so that ideally Korea would not be miles ahead.
And i still think that atleast Naniwa and Stephano is solid Code S material. Naniwa has been in ro8 twice and i don't see why he shouldn't be able to get back on top.
Seems worse now for the players. There will be more money distribution because of league locks. But before there were numerous leagues giving 25-50k per season. Now it is 20k. I figured with blizz's cash injection it would have gone up.
Maybe now it will increase attendance to non wcs events like DH, NASL etc
On April 17 2013 06:08 jiberish wrote: Seems worse now for the players. There will be more money distribution because of league locks. But before there were numerous leagues giving 25-50k per season. Now it is 20k. I figured with blizz's cash injection it would have gone up.
Maybe now it will increase attendance to non wcs events like DH, NASL etc
Prize money is not the center of the world. I mean, if you look at the World Cup, World Series or Super Bowl, they don't even talk about it. Also, I would prefer events hand out a reasonable amount of money, rather than breaking the bank just to one up eachother.
On April 17 2013 05:51 JJH777 wrote: Dang I was holding out hope that they would give the Korean seasons a higher prize pool but nope this is just pretty freaking horrible. Korea gets literally nothing for this. This was pure charity for EU/NA. Korea already had these events. In fact they had more of and better versions of these events before Blizzard stepped in. There was most likely going to be 2 OSLs and there would have been an extra GSL. So they are losing 2 events. They are also losing a bunch of prize money per event.
How do you know that Blizzard caused there to be less events over all? Although there was a delay in the new season of GSL, that was mostly due to HotS. Considering that last year there were way to many events, this may be the exact number they planed to run this year.
They already announced that they were going to do 4 GSLs. Now they are doing 3. That's one of the main reasons they let people get a refund on their yearly ticket.
This seems better for GSL across the board. More support from Blizzard, more viewers and they are on OGN. Exposure on OGN is likely super helpful for the Korean teams too.
On April 17 2013 05:51 JJH777 wrote: Dang I was holding out hope that they would give the Korean seasons a higher prize pool but nope this is just pretty freaking horrible. Korea gets literally nothing for this. This was pure charity for EU/NA. Korea already had these events. In fact they had more of and better versions of these events before Blizzard stepped in. There was most likely going to be 2 OSLs and there would have been an extra GSL. So they are losing 2 events. They are also losing a bunch of prize money per event.
How do you know that Blizzard caused there to be less events over all? Although there was a delay in the new season of GSL, that was mostly due to HotS. Considering that last year there were way to many events, this may be the exact number they planed to run this year.
They already announced that they were going to do 4 GSLs. Now they are doing 3. That's one of the main reasons they let people get a refund on their yearly ticket.
This seems better for GSL across the board. More support from Blizzard, more viewers and they are on OGN. Exposure on OGN is likely super helpful for the Korean teams too.
I guess that is helping the Korean scene but they could have done that without decreasing the number of events and prize money per event. It also doesn't help me as a foreign viewer at all. I am going to watch almost no WCS EU and very little WCS NA. There are way less weekend tournaments than last year as well (this one isn't Blizzard's fault of course). Now there is even less Korean events (this one is Blizzard's fault). Overall WCS has made it so I am going watch far less StarCraft this year than I was going to before. It's just depressing.
2012: OMG, so many tournaments, the scene is so oversaturated, this cannot go on 2013: OMG, so many tournaments died, the scene is diminishing, this cannot go on, #savehots TT qq
On April 17 2013 04:59 MCXD wrote: Points system is super, super terrible. Like, super unbelievably terrible. I could probably dedicate an article to picking apart all of the absolutely stupid things about it, but I won't (maybe), because it's not like going to all of that effort would change anything v_v
Every player currently in Code B (esp Korean) is completely fucked over, and every player in Code S is laughing, no questions asked, because Blizzard refused to be intelligent and creative with their point allocations and just went for the brain-dead approach that ignored the nature of tiering. Incredibly frustrating. I feel for the progamers who have to put up with it.
Here's something else to put it into perspective: A player who wins a GSL then immediately drops out of the GSL still has a decent shot of getting to the season final; if they win that then disappears from the face of the earth (retires even) they will still have more points than a player who gets 4 consecutive 2nd place finishes in the GSL. Also a player who goes 0-4 in the Code S Ro32 and 0-2 in their first Code A match to fall straight to Code B, walks away with equal amounts of points as the players who won every single Code A match that season.
Consistency, eh? That makes me laugh.
Youre misreading the point systems A player who wins a GSL gets 1.5k points. He'd also have to win the seasons finals = 3k points and then he's pretty much locked in for grand finals
Also whoever qualifies for Code S from Code A will automatically get at least the Ro32 points too... The point system is not that bad Its the money and the allocation of seeds which is the problem.
I see your point. The Code S money should be a bit higher as it would make more sense. Something to consider though is that the Code A money is significantly larger for Korea than it is for NA/EU. So much so that the 41-64th place Korean Code A player gets more money than the 1st place NA/EU player. That's pretty nice. I do think that they need a bit more money in Code S to be more realistic, however it's not realistic to give that money away right now most likely.
Also, if you really think about it, this format is going to keep Korea in a very sustainable position, allowing a very viable professional scene to florish so long as the scene and the teams are well supported. The format is also going to allow for top NA/EU players to actually play SC2 seriously and professionally. An American isn't going to have to be in EG in order to quit their job and play only SC2 (although they will need a team to support them, they don't have to be filthy rich).
It really seems like this format is going to allow NA and EU to play catch up, while not hurting Korea's financial stability.
Sure it sucks to not get filthy rich off of 1 tournament, but eSports isn't about getting filthy rich off of 1 tournament. This is aiming for a more globalized setting for eSports and SC2.
Another look at the points system makes me believe it's still not too bad. It's going to reward those NA/EU players who devoted themselves to their new found profession over the last year, and not someone who simply had a good tournament. At the same time, Koreans are still going to get more money than them because they are going to take the top places, because they are the best in the world.
Eventually though, because this system is supporting the growth of NA and EU, the level of gameplay we see in the global finals will improve.
I feel you're going to be angry whenever anyone who's not a Korean is playing because they aren't as good as Koreans, but that's not what anyone else is worried about here. The issue at hand is the growth of eSports and SC2.
On April 17 2013 04:59 MCXD wrote: Points system is super, super terrible. Like, super unbelievably terrible. I could probably dedicate an article to picking apart all of the absolutely stupid things about it, but I won't (maybe), because it's not like going to all of that effort would change anything v_v
Every player currently in Code B (esp Korean) is completely fucked over, and every player in Code S is laughing, no questions asked, because Blizzard refused to be intelligent and creative with their point allocations and just went for the brain-dead approach that ignored the nature of tiering. Incredibly frustrating. I feel for the progamers who have to put up with it.
Here's something else to put it into perspective: A player who wins a GSL then immediately drops out of the GSL still has a decent shot of getting to the season final; if they win that then disappears from the face of the earth (retires even) they will still have more points than a player who gets 4 consecutive 2nd place finishes in the GSL. Also a player who goes 0-4 in the Code S Ro32 and 0-2 in their first Code A match to fall straight to Code B, walks away with equal amounts of points as the players who won every single Code A match that season.
Consistency, eh? That makes me laugh.
Youre misreading the point systems A player who wins a GSL gets 1.5k points. He'd also have to win the seasons finals = 3k points and then he's pretty much locked in for grand finals
Also whoever qualifies for Code S from Code A will automatically get at least the Ro32 points too... The point system is not that bad Its the money and the allocation of seeds which is the problem.
I see your point. The Code S money should be a bit higher as it would make more sense. Something to consider though is that the Code A money is significantly larger for Korea than it is for NA/EU. So much so that the 41-64th place Korean Code A player gets more money than the 1st place NA/EU player. That's pretty nice. I do think that they need a bit more money in Code S to be more realistic, however it's not realistic to give that money away right now most likely.
Also, if you really think about it, this format is going to keep Korea in a very sustainable position, allowing a very viable professional scene to florish so long as the scene and the teams are well supported. The format is also going to allow for top NA/EU players to actually play SC2 seriously and professionally. An American isn't going to have to be in EG in order to quit their job and play only SC2 (although they will need a team to support them, they don't have to be filthy rich).
It really seems like this format is going to allow NA and EU to play catch up, while not hurting Korea's financial stability.
Sure it sucks to not get filthy rich off of 1 tournament, but eSports isn't about getting filthy rich off of 1 tournament. This is aiming for a more globalized setting for eSports and SC2.
Another look at the points system makes me believe it's still not too bad. It's going to reward those NA/EU players who devoted themselves to their new found profession over the last year, and not someone who simply had a good tournament. At the same time, Koreans are still going to get more money than them because they are going to take the top places, because they are the best in the world.
Eventually though, because this system is supporting the growth of NA and EU, the level of gameplay we see in the global finals will improve.
I feel you're going to be angry whenever anyone who's not a Korean is playing because they aren't as good as Koreans, but that's not what anyone else is worried about here. The issue at hand is the growth of eSports and SC2.
I like watching EU/NA games. Ive been following the EU qualifiers for the past two days passively because guys like Sterlok and Bunny have produced some entertaining games. However, I am going to be angry if I see a far more inferior player make it to the season finals over one of the 10s of better Korean betters that could have taken his place.
Blizzard, I feel, has stunted the growth of Korean E-sports for NA/EU to basically catch up. The problem is....Korea has still A LOT of work to do in terms of esports growth. HoTS + Kespa players switching over did pull a few people in but not enough..or relevant enough to gain that full bw crowd into the SPL/GSTL stands. Not a lot of people care about sc2 in Korea than people think, staying away because its not "original" and "easy"..at least speaking to my relatives/cousins etc.
Another point to make is that..I was excited at the prospect of OSL/GSL because of the fact that it brings back the duo tournaments (and I'm speaking as also a bw fan here) when it was OSL/MSL running at the same time. The GSL becoming the new MSL. But nope, they took that away. On top of that...they combined the two and made the winner of the combined "OSL/GSL" tournament..which should be prestrigious as EVER, some entry ticket to some season finale...while throw a bit of money at the winner and giving a paper that says "Good Job".
there's really zero reason for any korean to try for GSL/OSL if they can afford plane tickets to NA/EU for the offline stuff. It's a joke. I started out quite happy with the WCS stuff, but literally every piece of information that has come out has been disappointing.
On April 17 2013 06:08 jiberish wrote: Seems worse now for the players. There will be more money distribution because of league locks. But before there were numerous leagues giving 25-50k per season. Now it is 20k. I figured with blizz's cash injection it would have gone up.
Maybe now it will increase attendance to non wcs events like DH, NASL etc
Prize money is not the center of the world. I mean, if you look at the World Cup, World Series or Super Bowl, they don't even talk about it. Also, I would prefer events hand out a reasonable amount of money, rather than breaking the bank just to one up eachother.
probably because all the people who play in the World Cup, World Series, or Super Bowl are millionaires.
yeah I get that there's a season finals and blizzcon but it just makes gsl feel more like a qualifying tournament than the ultimate goal which it used to be.
On April 17 2013 07:56 Laryleprakon wrote: Korea really does seem to be the ones to lose a lot with how much NA/EU have gained.
If that were true... gsl would have never signed the contract. 2nd, blizzard copied everything from the gsl format for other regions, my bet is they are gaining something somewhere else this WCS would not have happened.
On April 17 2013 07:56 Laryleprakon wrote: Korea really does seem to be the ones to lose a lot with how much NA/EU have gained.
If that were true... gsl would have never signed the contract. 2nd, blizzard copied everything from the gsl format for other regions, my bet is they are gaining something somewhere else this WCS would not have happened.
Or maybe current CEO of Gretech is an idiot or fully controlled by Blizzard. Their old CEO resigned last month or so There is certainly some kind of political battle inside Gretech during this whole deal. As an outsider, at least we know that not everyone is seeing this as a good thing for the company, at least not the old CEO.
On April 17 2013 07:56 Laryleprakon wrote: Korea really does seem to be the ones to lose a lot with how much NA/EU have gained.
If that were true... gsl would have never signed the contract. 2nd, blizzard copied everything from the gsl format for other regions, my bet is they are gaining something somewhere else this WCS would not have happened.
GSL gains TV coverage that is completely useless to foreign fans. GSL dropped a ton in entertainment value for me I doubt I'll ever buy another ticket. I'll stay up for the matches I want to watch but that's it.
On April 17 2013 07:56 Laryleprakon wrote: Korea really does seem to be the ones to lose a lot with how much NA/EU have gained.
If that were true... gsl would have never signed the contract. 2nd, blizzard copied everything from the gsl format for other regions, my bet is they are gaining something somewhere else this WCS would not have happened.
Or maybe current CEO of Gretech is an idiot or fully controlled by Blizzard. Their old CEO resigned last month or so There is certainly some kind of political battle inside Gretech during this whole deal. As an outsider, at least we know that not everyone is seeing this as a good thing for the company, at least not the old CEO.
believe what u want. Some people are conspiracytheory-ing everything anyways... ofc. they will gain something or else they would not have signed the contract! They are not stupid, they have been doing this for years....
On April 17 2013 07:56 Laryleprakon wrote: Korea really does seem to be the ones to lose a lot with how much NA/EU have gained.
If that were true... gsl would have never signed the contract. 2nd, blizzard copied everything from the gsl format for other regions, my bet is they are gaining something somewhere else this WCS would not have happened.
Or maybe current CEO of Gretech is an idiot or fully controlled by Blizzard. Their old CEO resigned last month or so There is certainly some kind of political battle inside Gretech during this whole deal. As an outsider, at least we know that not everyone is seeing this as a good thing for the company, at least not the old CEO.
believe what u want. Some people are conspiracytheory-ing everything anyways... ofc. they will gain something or else they would not have signed the contract! They are not stupid, they have been doing this for years....
Ofc, every deal has good side and bad side, some people believe it's a good deal, some believe it's a bad deal. It's too common for smartest business man to make the most stupid deal. There is nothing conspiracy about this, imo, they just made a bad business deal, it can happen to smartest person in the world. Obviously you don't agree, I just want to point out they are the weakest entity, and have the most to lose on that round table, getting bullied is no surprise.
On April 17 2013 07:51 negativedge wrote: why can't sponsors and GOM/OGN themselves add to the prize pool, again? because blizzard is dumb?
Probably because Blizzard themselves used to fund them the money in the first place, or at least a good chunk of it.
I don't think this is true. For the first 3 seasons it was but after that I'm pretty sure they were mostly self/sponsor funded. My reasoning is that for the first 3 seasons they were frequently thanked for sponsoring the event by Tastosis but since then they really haven't been.
On April 17 2013 07:56 Laryleprakon wrote: Korea really does seem to be the ones to lose a lot with how much NA/EU have gained.
If that were true... gsl would have never signed the contract. 2nd, blizzard copied everything from the gsl format for other regions, my bet is they are gaining something somewhere else this WCS would not have happened.
Or maybe current CEO of Gretech is an idiot or fully controlled by Blizzard. Their old CEO resigned last month or so There is certainly some kind of political battle inside Gretech during this whole deal. As an outsider, at least we know that not everyone is seeing this as a good thing for the company, at least not the old CEO.
believe what u want. Some people are conspiracytheory-ing everything anyways... ofc. they will gain something or else they would not have signed the contract! They are not stupid, they have been doing this for years....
Ofc, every deal has good side and bad side, some people believe it's a good deal, some believe it's a bad deal. It's too common for smartest business man to make the most stupid deal. There is nothing conspiracy about this, imo, they just made a bad business deal, it can happen to smartest person in the world.
Let me explain further : Blizzard goes to gsl. Says we will pump 1.6kk into esports and we want u with us. Now, gsl has a choice :
1. They agree, get alot of extra value pushed in this blizzard format. 2. They dont agree, blizzard makes own competition in KR, coupled to the 1.6kk prizepoule. GSL cannot compete with that in the longrun.
They have gained maximum result as i see it! There will be no competition in korea for gsl for years to come. Businesswise gsl made the smart decision. Blizzard gave them some extras (gsl format everywhere and that KR players can go compete anywhere they want to). Maximum result for gsl and korean players.
Therefore my statement yet again : They must gain something or else they would not have signed the contract!
On April 17 2013 07:51 negativedge wrote: why can't sponsors and GOM/OGN themselves add to the prize pool, again? because blizzard is dumb?
Probably because Blizzard themselves used to fund them the money in the first place, or at least a good chunk of it.
I don't think this is true. For the first 3 seasons it was but after that I'm pretty sure they were mostly self/sponsor funded. My reasoning is that for the first 3 seasons they were frequently thanked for sponsoring the event by Tastosis but since then they really haven't been.
Well, Blizzard won't tell them to invest less in SC2, that would be counter-productive. GSL have already doubled the prizemoney of GSTL. They might also use some funds left over to help eSF as they said they would.
On April 17 2013 07:51 negativedge wrote: why can't sponsors and GOM/OGN themselves add to the prize pool, again? because blizzard is dumb?
Probably because Blizzard themselves used to fund them the money in the first place, or at least a good chunk of it.
I don't think this is true. For the first 3 seasons it was but after that I'm pretty sure they were mostly self/sponsor funded. My reasoning is that for the first 3 seasons they were frequently thanked for sponsoring the event by Tastosis but since then they really haven't been.
Well, Blizzard won't tell them to invest less in SC2, that would be counter-productive. GSL have already doubled the prizemoney of GSTL. They might also use some funds left over to help eSF as they said they would.
I don't think GOM entered a bad deal and people are getting to hung up on the prize money. The winner of the season is guaranteed at least another $5,000 for the season finals, if not more. There is plenty of money to go around if you get in the top 5 of the season. And lets be frank, the winning of Korea is likely to win the Season finals too.
On April 17 2013 07:51 negativedge wrote: why can't sponsors and GOM/OGN themselves add to the prize pool, again? because blizzard is dumb?
Probably because Blizzard themselves used to fund them the money in the first place, or at least a good chunk of it.
I don't think this is true. For the first 3 seasons it was but after that I'm pretty sure they were mostly self/sponsor funded. My reasoning is that for the first 3 seasons they were frequently thanked for sponsoring the event by Tastosis but since then they really haven't been.
Well, Blizzard won't tell them to invest less in SC2, that would be counter-productive. GSL have already doubled the prizemoney of GSTL. They might also use some funds left over to help eSF as they said they would.
I don't think GOM entered a bad deal and people are getting to hung up on the prize money. The winner of the season is guaranteed at least another $5,000 for the season finals, if not more. There is plenty of money to go around if you get in the top 5 of the season. And lets be frank, the winning of Korea is likely to win the Season finals too.
I care more about the decreased number of events than the prize pool. I recognize that prize money is a very small amount of what goes into a tournament. There is no way to spin decreased number of events as a good thing
On April 17 2013 07:51 negativedge wrote: why can't sponsors and GOM/OGN themselves add to the prize pool, again? because blizzard is dumb?
Probably because Blizzard themselves used to fund them the money in the first place, or at least a good chunk of it.
I don't think this is true. For the first 3 seasons it was but after that I'm pretty sure they were mostly self/sponsor funded. My reasoning is that for the first 3 seasons they were frequently thanked for sponsoring the event by Tastosis but since then they really haven't been.
Well, Blizzard won't tell them to invest less in SC2, that would be counter-productive. GSL have already doubled the prizemoney of GSTL. They might also use some funds left over to help eSF as they said they would.
I don't think GOM entered a bad deal and people are getting to hung up on the prize money. The winner of the season is guaranteed at least another $5,000 for the season finals, if not more. There is plenty of money to go around if you get in the top 5 of the season. And lets be frank, the winning of Korea is likely to win the Season finals too.
Not really, with how stacked Korea is, winner could easily lose in the 1st round to 5th place from GSL. Last season RorO won GSL, 5th-8th place was Innovation, Parting, Soulkey, MC.
RorO beat MC only 3-2, and he's the weakest of those 4 players. It's completely possible that any one of the remaining 3 could have knocked RorO out in the first round of the tournament in a seasonal finals scenario.
GSL finals has lost a lot of its excitement and glory, now that you know the runner up, and even someone who couldn't make the semi-finals will be playing the champion in a couple of weeks for an even bigger prize, in a weekend tournament where players can't prepare for their opponents.
On April 17 2013 07:51 negativedge wrote: why can't sponsors and GOM/OGN themselves add to the prize pool, again? because blizzard is dumb?
Probably because Blizzard themselves used to fund them the money in the first place, or at least a good chunk of it.
I don't think this is true. For the first 3 seasons it was but after that I'm pretty sure they were mostly self/sponsor funded. My reasoning is that for the first 3 seasons they were frequently thanked for sponsoring the event by Tastosis but since then they really haven't been.
Well, Blizzard won't tell them to invest less in SC2, that would be counter-productive. GSL have already doubled the prizemoney of GSTL. They might also use some funds left over to help eSF as they said they would.
I don't think GOM entered a bad deal and people are getting to hung up on the prize money. The winner of the season is guaranteed at least another $5,000 for the season finals, if not more. There is plenty of money to go around if you get in the top 5 of the season. And lets be frank, the winning of Korea is likely to win the Season finals too.
Not really, with how stacked Korea is, winner could easily lose in the 1st round to 5th place from GSL. Last season RorO won GSL, 5th-8th place was Innovation, Parting, Soulkey, MC.
RorO beat MC only 3-2, and he's the weakest of those 4 players. It's completely possible that any one of the remaining 3 could have knocked RorO out in the first round of the tournament in a seasonal finals scenario.
GSL finals has lost a lot of its excitement and glory, now that you know the runner up, and even someone who couldn't make the semi-finals will be playing the champion in a couple of weeks for an even bigger prize, in a weekend tournament where players can't prepare for their opponents.
Indeed, or gom would get competition from WCS in KR... and after 3 years have no proplayers left because they would play in wcs for more money.....
That price distribution is a joke. Why the hell do you need tro give 40k to the first place? I am pretty sure 10k would make ANYONE get exicited and try their hardest. But blizz seems to be more concerned with making individuals rich than with making participation in WCS a sustainable way of living. Then again, it really seems like it was never Blizz intention to use WCS to produce a more sustainable scene. Deeply dissapointed =[
On April 17 2013 07:51 negativedge wrote: why can't sponsors and GOM/OGN themselves add to the prize pool, again? because blizzard is dumb?
Probably because Blizzard themselves used to fund them the money in the first place, or at least a good chunk of it.
I don't think this is true. For the first 3 seasons it was but after that I'm pretty sure they were mostly self/sponsor funded. My reasoning is that for the first 3 seasons they were frequently thanked for sponsoring the event by Tastosis but since then they really haven't been.
Well, Blizzard won't tell them to invest less in SC2, that would be counter-productive. GSL have already doubled the prizemoney of GSTL. They might also use some funds left over to help eSF as they said they would.
I don't think GOM entered a bad deal and people are getting to hung up on the prize money. The winner of the season is guaranteed at least another $5,000 for the season finals, if not more. There is plenty of money to go around if you get in the top 5 of the season. And lets be frank, the winning of Korea is likely to win the Season finals too.
This is something I discussed on today's Climbing The Ladder Show with ChanmanV and Sir Scoots. I posted a graphic that I made that outlines the problem with a 'raw points' total to determine a 'ranking' of skill.
Not sure if its best to start a new thread if there will be comments on it.. if so, I will consider it then..but figure it's worth a look in here.
To follow this up, I will be FINALLY putting together an info graphic with full details on how a proper tournament rankings/points system should work. Something that I created year ago for another gaming company that was looking to globalize a points system to determine World Champions.. called the Global Points System (GPS).
Don't mind the title of the graphic.. I am a designer... I make points through text and art.. that's my excuse!
On April 17 2013 00:44 Acronysis wrote: I like what I see. 20,000 is certainly not as high as it once was, but I am completely fine with that. There is still a good chunk of change (40k) for the 1st place for season finals which is nothing to complain about, and I'm glad the 16-32nd players get 1500 instead of the 300 reported earlier, substantially different. I honestly have no idea if thats considered sustainable for players or not, but it seems reasonable enough.
Can't wait to get into the heart of this and see some awesome games!
Anyway, not to be one that always brings down the negativity (lots already talked about this) but we'll see how things goes.
The gist of what I like to post is that:
1. Was GOMTV okay with their previous prize pool and model? Did GOMTV want to keep their current prize pool but Blizzard decided to do it this way (10k for 2nd, 20k for first)?
2. If GOMTV was okay with their 4-5 GSLs a year, and prize pool of 50k/20k for 1st/2nd, then that kind of is too bad for Koreans who do not earn salary (this was discussed on SotG before but the reality of the situation is that most people do not earn salary while progaming... maybe sponsors or teams pay for their living expenses but the majority of money earned is from tournament earnings).
To be fair, it is an experiment and if it works out well, the prize pool can increase.
Unlike MOBAs which are sustainable off of micro transactions (for example, with Dota 2, most people buy tournament tickets just so they can get a chance at getting tournament items... I honestly do not know if people would buy tournament tickets if it weren't for the items, mainly because most major tournaments are uploaded for free on Youtube by Tobi himself anyway >.>; edit - Though if you want the replays, you do have to buy the Tournament Pass), something like SC2 may have a hard time being sustainable.
BW kicked off really well in South Korea mainly because there was no competition at the time, and "eSports" was a relatively new thing (and seeing a game like BW on TV was kind of neat and cool, you felt cool watching it on TV in front of others!!) but now it's hard to say.
Which is where I got my new idea - So Blizzard is releasing a new card game (Hearthstone) that is played on PC and mobile devices( it's not the traditional tabletop card game playing, it's a digital game).
What if the new card game competed with something like Magic: The Gathering (Magic is epic, has huge prize money tournaments regularly that is 40k for 1st place, 20k for 2nd, etc)?
What if you have a chance of getting super rare cards... by watching the GSL!!!!
Instant $$$ for Blizzard, and eSports is suddenly sustainable. Heck, I don't care what I'd have to do to get that holographic ultimate ghost rare Zergling Card, I'd play or watch <insert something that I don't even normally do> to get it.
But yeah... Blizzard should think of connecting something with their games to make things more sustainable. They can't really do anything like Dota 2 (for example) for SC2, because the game isn't built off of cosmetics really.
However, if the connect their card game with SC2 (like, buy a season pass for the GSL, and you have a chance to get <insert ultimate ghost rare card #123>).
Now they just need to make Hearthstone such a deep and fun game that it competes with MTG.
(MTG is a really really deep game. Card games in general are more "meta game" type games where the gist of how you win or lose comes down to preparation and deck building, so you may not really see it in actual games themselves but it shows when you have consistent top champions that win over hundreds of thousands of dollars over their career of Magic playing.)
Anyway, just my random thoughts (which could totally work >.>...). Cross promotion (especially when Blizzard is doing it for their own games) works. If you look at Team Fortress 2 (for example), some people buy games they don't even play on Steam just because they come with exclusive Team Fortress 2 hats.
On April 17 2013 01:07 m0ck wrote: There are too many proplayers for too little money in Korea. That is not Blizzards fault, but rather due to the reduction in audience for SC2 from SC:BW. The Korean scene will have to adapt. Probably some players will have to find another way of making a living.
If the audience for blizzard is outside of Korea, why should the money go to subsidizing the Korean scene? To ensure that they will stay the strongest forever?
I do have to agree with this too.
TBH, a lot of GOMTV's profits were probably from overseas viewers anyway (I'm not sure if sponsors alone can keep GOMTV running major tournaments with huge prize pools).
Still, just want to point out that it is too bad for the Korean scene because it was kind of an abrupt thing that just happened (no one really knew until after GSL 2013 Season 2 began). Oh well, it is mainly due to the SC2 scene (I mean BW is still beating SC2 in PC Bangs, SC2 is that unpopular in South Korea compared to other games).
Blizzard can fix all of this... As long as they make the best card game ever to exist... with put a ton of cross promotion (again, if I could get a limited edition, a true limited edition, <insert mega ultra ghost ultimate rare Zergling> card from getting a GSL pass, then I'd do it), and make it huge in Korea!
On April 17 2013 07:51 negativedge wrote: why can't sponsors and GOM/OGN themselves add to the prize pool, again? because blizzard is dumb?
Probably because Blizzard themselves used to fund them the money in the first place, or at least a good chunk of it.
I don't think this is true. For the first 3 seasons it was but after that I'm pretty sure they were mostly self/sponsor funded. My reasoning is that for the first 3 seasons they were frequently thanked for sponsoring the event by Tastosis but since then they really haven't been.
Well, Blizzard won't tell them to invest less in SC2, that would be counter-productive. GSL have already doubled the prizemoney of GSTL. They might also use some funds left over to help eSF as they said they would.
I don't think GOM entered a bad deal and people are getting to hung up on the prize money. The winner of the season is guaranteed at least another $5,000 for the season finals, if not more. There is plenty of money to go around if you get in the top 5 of the season. And lets be frank, the winning of Korea is likely to win the Season finals too.
Not really, the season finals, being a one weekend affair, is much more about bracket luck, how much jetlag affects you ( in the tournaments that are not in your region ) and favours safer playstyles limiting the amount of builds.
The best players will always be crowned in leagues, i have no idea why blizzard is under the delusion that their weekend thingie is "fiercer" than code S.
On April 17 2013 12:28 ES_JohnClark wrote: This is something I discussed on today's Climbing The Ladder Show with ChanmanV and Sir Scoots. I posted a graphic that I made that outlines the problem with a 'raw points' total to determine a 'ranking' of skill. + Show Spoiler +
Not sure if its best to start a new thread if there will be comments on it.. if so, I will consider it then..but figure it's worth a look in here.
To follow this up, I will be FINALLY putting together an info graphic with full details on how a proper tournament rankings/points system should work. Something that I created year ago for another gaming company that was looking to globalize a points system to determine World Champions.. called the Global Points System (GPS).
Don't mind the title of the graphic.. I am a designer... I make points through text and art.. that's my excuse!
Your logic makes a huge leap with the assumption that there will be "Tier 1 online events". I really cant see blizzard considering any online event aside from Teamliquid Starleague - and even that will likely be Tier 2.
So while i agree that points system is bad - giving MLG winners 750pts, and Iron Squid winners 250pts is not part of the problem.
On April 17 2013 12:28 ES_JohnClark wrote: This is something I discussed on today's Climbing The Ladder Show with ChanmanV and Sir Scoots. I posted a graphic that I made that outlines the problem with a 'raw points' total to determine a 'ranking' of skill.
Not sure if its best to start a new thread if there will be comments on it.. if so, I will consider it then..but figure it's worth a look in here.
To follow this up, I will be FINALLY putting together an info graphic with full details on how a proper tournament rankings/points system should work. Something that I created year ago for another gaming company that was looking to globalize a points system to determine World Champions.. called the Global Points System (GPS).
Don't mind the title of the graphic.. I am a designer... I make points through text and art.. that's my excuse!
You either don't understand the point system or your graphic is unclear. You don't get separate points group stage and bracket stage in challenger league, and you don't get separate points for each group stage in premier league. Additionally, you seem to think there will be dozens of non-WCS events with points per season and frankly we have nothing that indicates that will be the case. To top it all off, I think the we could pretty easily argue that these sample results are far from realistic.
On April 17 2013 12:28 ES_JohnClark wrote: This is something I discussed on today's Climbing The Ladder Show with ChanmanV and Sir Scoots. I posted a graphic that I made that outlines the problem with a 'raw points' total to determine a 'ranking' of skill.
Not sure if its best to start a new thread if there will be comments on it.. if so, I will consider it then..but figure it's worth a look in here.
To follow this up, I will be FINALLY putting together an info graphic with full details on how a proper tournament rankings/points system should work. Something that I created year ago for another gaming company that was looking to globalize a points system to determine World Champions.. called the Global Points System (GPS).
Don't mind the title of the graphic.. I am a designer... I make points through text and art.. that's my excuse!
You either don't understand the point system or your graphic is unclear. You don't get separate points group stage and bracket stage in challenger league, and you don't get separate points for each group stage in premier league. Additionally, you seem to think there will be dozens of non-WCS events with points per season and frankly we have nothing that indicates that will be the case. To top it all off, I think the we could pretty easily argue that these sample results are far from realistic.
But this is what we do at TL. People release systems for events and we make massive, paragraph long posts about how it is bad for Esports and will destroy SC2 as we know it. I mean, from what I can tell from this thread, the prize pool alone is going to destroy the Korean economy and birthrate. Because if there is anything I have learned, its that the members of TL can accurately predict what is good for bad for SC2 without error. Ever.
On April 17 2013 12:28 ES_JohnClark wrote: This is something I discussed on today's Climbing The Ladder Show with ChanmanV and Sir Scoots. I posted a graphic that I made that outlines the problem with a 'raw points' total to determine a 'ranking' of skill.
Not sure if its best to start a new thread if there will be comments on it.. if so, I will consider it then..but figure it's worth a look in here.
To follow this up, I will be FINALLY putting together an info graphic with full details on how a proper tournament rankings/points system should work. Something that I created year ago for another gaming company that was looking to globalize a points system to determine World Champions.. called the Global Points System (GPS).
Don't mind the title of the graphic.. I am a designer... I make points through text and art.. that's my excuse!
I understand why you're concerned, but I don't think they ever said that every non-WCS event will award points. My understanding was that it would be mostly events like Dreamhack, MLG etc. Did they say anywhere that online tournaments would award WCS points?
Again.. missing the point of the points and why those points are not really points.
I think you dont understand my graphic.
I simply took 3 players who played in differnet events.. ALL of which are events that earn WCS points. All of those points are applied to the ranking system btw. Unless you can show me where players that play in Tier 1 events earn points that dont get added to their finish in a WCS event.. (i may have missed that part honestly).. but the graphic assumes that all points are earned based on your finish at any WCS 'sanctioned' event.
Also.. I am not showing dozens of non-WCS events.. and that still does not defeat my point. I think maybe I should wait to comment more until I show you how a proper points system that takes into acount your 'actual' finish (not 4th through 8th getting same points!) and it's relative to how many events vs. how well you did in each... and not heavily weighted on just HOW MANY events you can/will attend.. regardless of how poorly you may do in many of them.
If i missed anythign about the Challenger points being separate from the Premier Points or the Non-wcs points.. fill me in.. but I am pretty sure I did not..considering the fact that they have them weighted in an attempt to avoid the scenerio that I setup.. usually means they are doing this because ALL of the events count ALL points toward your OVERALL points total.
i never said a bunch of online events.. in fact..they never said.. as you guys are pointing out. They list that there will be 'several' non-WCS events that are 'sanctioned'.. Again.. my graphic is just pointing out how its possible that with 'raw points' awarded based on participation and not really on your finish/placement at an event.. it will reward players that finish in the middle of the pack in 10 overall tournaments while punishing those that finish in top 20 of only 4 events they choose to play in.. THUS.. in some cases. a player that played 10 tournaments and finished shitty will be considered higher in the points rankings that a player that was clearly better ..but was only able to compete in 4 of the 10 events.
On April 17 2013 13:26 ES_JohnClark wrote: i never said a bunch of online events.. in fact..they never said.. as you guys are pointing out. They list that there will be 'several' non-WCS events that are 'sanctioned'.. Again.. my graphic is just pointing out how its possible that with 'raw points' awarded based on participation and not really on your finish/placement at an event.. it will reward players that finish in the middle of the pack in 10 overall tournaments while punishing those that finish in top 20 of only 4 events they choose to play in.. THUS.. in some cases. a player that played 10 tournaments and finished shitty will be considered higher in the points rankings that a player that was clearly better ..but was only able to compete in 4 of the 10 events.
Its dishonest to say the first 2 players on the list are "clearly better" than the last. Coming in top 9 in 6 events the caliber of Dreamhack or MLG in the span of one season would be insane. I'm not sure anyone has ever even done that in a 3 month period, and yet you claim that this hypothetical run would be clearly undeserving of so many WCS points? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Also, its still unclear if your graphic is supposed to be over the course of one season or all 3 for the year. Either way it is incorrect.
again.. im only going by what WCS has laid out.. and notice the first part of the graphic that list their 'perceived' ranking.
Im not comparing tournaments..thats up to WCS to decide on how to 'tier' them.. which my system also does..but its based on math (# of top 32 ranked players that enter, size, etc)...
I am simply laying out a very very possible scenerio that could happen based on the fact that the numbers are NOT relative. I agree with you in a lot of what you said.
My graphic is right now actually.. its only going off of what WCS has laid out. Notice that i do NOT give specific tournament names. because at this point ..either has WCS really.. so its only looking at the math of things. I did this in an hour today.. so its possible i added some things up wrong..but the point of the graphic is complete and right.. again.. based on what WCS has laid out (unless someone can show me where they say points for lower tiers wont count towards a players total points).
John you arbitrarily made results, events, and finishes and said hey this system is bad! Its just a terrible example, showing a player that only plays in WCS Premier League, even though he is on a good team. Why would he only be playing in the PL? Thats just not going to happen. You post assumes that a player that is on a team with limited $$ will be traveling to more events than the player on a team with a lot of $$. That makes no sense.
Is it really bad that a player who played in 6 non WCS tournaments and got top 10 in all of them earned more points than the guy who just did WCS?
On April 17 2013 13:40 ES_JohnClark wrote: again.. im only going by what WCS has laid out.. and notice the first part of the graphic that list their 'perceived' ranking.
Im not comparing tournaments..thats up to WCS to decide on how to 'tier' them.. which my system also does..but its based on math (# of top 32 ranked players that enter, size, etc)...
I am simply laying out a very very possible scenerio that could happen based on the fact that the numbers are NOT relative. I agree with you in a lot of what you said.
My graphic is right now actually.. its only going off of what WCS has laid out. Notice that i do NOT give specific tournament names. because at this point ..either has WCS really.. so its only looking at the math of things. I did this in an hour today.. so its possible i added some things up wrong..but the point of the graphic is complete and right.. again.. based on what WCS has laid out (unless someone can show me where they say points for lower tiers wont count towards a players total points).
You only get awarded points for regional WCS leagues once per season and yet you have player 1 getting points twice (or 3 times, its unclear if the last is supposed to be the global finals or not), player 2 getting points 3 times and player 3 getting points twice. Your graphic is incorrect.
my graphic looks at a single season.. ..it only includes 1 of each of the Premier level Group Stage and Bracket Stage events.. which is all that is listed in the graphic that WCS released today.
So.. assume this to be 1 season.. and lets say 11 total sanctioned WCS events (included non-WCS specific events that are sanctioned.. and lets say there are 6 of them.. which is very possible!)
Notice the Open Qualifiers are not listed because according to the WCS release today..there are NO points awarded for those.. so i did not include them in the graphic.
On April 17 2013 13:44 ES_JohnClark wrote: my graphic looks at a single season.. ..it only includes 1 of each of the Premier level Group Stage and Bracket Stage events.. which is all that is listed in the graphic that WCS released today.
So.. assume this to be 1 season.. and lets say 11 total sanctioned WCS events (included non-WCS specific events that are sanctioned.. and lets say there are 6 of them.. which is very possible!)
Notice the Open Qualifiers are not listed because according to the WCS release today..there are NO points awarded for those.. so i did not include them in the graphic.
Group stage and bracket stage are not separate events. They are the same events and only award points once between them. Are you even reading what I post?
edit: And coming in top 10 in 6 global events you might attend in a 3 month span is insane. I'm not sure any player in the world right now could do that.
On April 17 2013 13:40 ES_JohnClark wrote: again.. im only going by what WCS has laid out.. and notice the first part of the graphic that list their 'perceived' ranking.
Im not comparing tournaments..thats up to WCS to decide on how to 'tier' them.. which my system also does..but its based on math (# of top 32 ranked players that enter, size, etc)...
I am simply laying out a very very possible scenerio that could happen based on the fact that the numbers are NOT relative. I agree with you in a lot of what you said.
My graphic is right now actually.. its only going off of what WCS has laid out. Notice that i do NOT give specific tournament names. because at this point ..either has WCS really.. so its only looking at the math of things. I did this in an hour today.. so its possible i added some things up wrong..but the point of the graphic is complete and right.. again.. based on what WCS has laid out (unless someone can show me where they say points for lower tiers wont count towards a players total points).
Try giving the specific tournament names and you will see how your graphs are the opposite of very very possible ( someone who cant get into Premier league in NA will constantly get top10 spots in events like MLG/Dreamhack ).
Or just assumes playhem dailies will be tier2 and something like ESET UK Masters will be Tier 1
read the graphic again.. notice the KEY at the bottom?
in the WCS graphic.. and ill go through it some more tomorrow.. headed to bed.... you notice that they have several 'STAGES" for each.. and each are either a Premier or Challenger Stage.. and unless otherwise noted.. EACH Stage.. is a seperate event with seperate points awarded. If that is not the case..then yes.. my graphic is wrong.. but my point is not still I think you guys are missing the issue here.
Tell me.. a guy that finishes 5th at DH, 9th at MLG and 6th at an IEM event.. is that player a better player that finished 4th at DH, 5th at MLG and was not able to attend the IEM Event?
This may be a better example for you guys.
Answer that and we can then go to step 2 with the example. I think maybe may graphic was a bit overdone honestly.. but i wanted to avoid a lot of text.
Oh.. and I very well could be wrong that each 'stage' of the series of events is a different event. Ill look into that more tomorrow.
even if they get into top 10's (constantly, as you put it..which is an assumption you are asking me NOT to make).. the idea that you are rewarded points as 'raw' number.. meaning its just an arbitrary number thrown out there.. STILL does not mean that if you attend 2 less events then another player you wont be ranked LESS then that person (who finished 12th through 16th).
I only used examples of 'finishes'.. not real players.. not real tournaments (minus what WCS laid out as possible events).. to show the MATH and how it can work against a player that can only attend 4 of 10 events.. while it helps a player that finishes worse (on average) .. but attends 7 of 10 events.
I understand your point of going to more tournaments gives you a leg up on the competition and agree with it but your graphic does a poor job of illustrating this point.
On April 17 2013 13:50 ES_JohnClark wrote: read the graphic again.. notice the KEY at the bottom?
in the WCS graphic.. and ill go through it some more tomorrow.. headed to bed.... you notice that they have several 'STAGES" for each.. and each are either a Premier or Challenger Stage.. and unless otherwise noted.. EACH Stage.. is a seperate event with seperate points awarded. If that is not the case..then yes.. my graphic is wrong.. but my point is not still I think you guys are missing the issue here.
They are not separate events. You are jumping to conclusions about a system you haven't even taken the time to understand.
Tell me.. a guy that finishes 5th at DH, 9th at MLG and 6th at an IEM event.. is that player a better player that finished 4th at DH, 5th at MLG and was not able to attend the IEM Event?
Maybe. I don't see anything wrong with awarding points for it though. Its not like the points determine who wins, just who qualifies for top 16 at Blizzcon. You've got to award points somehow.
Answer that and we can then go to step 2 with the example. I think maybe may graphic was a bit overdone honestly.. but i wanted to avoid a lot of text.
Oh.. and I very well could be wrong that each 'stage' of the series of events is a different event. Ill look into that more tomorrow.
On April 17 2013 13:50 ES_JohnClark wrote: read the graphic again.. notice the KEY at the bottom?
in the WCS graphic.. and ill go through it some more tomorrow.. headed to bed.... you notice that they have several 'STAGES" for each.. and each are either a Premier or Challenger Stage.. and unless otherwise noted.. EACH Stage.. is a seperate event with seperate points awarded. If that is not the case..then yes.. my graphic is wrong.. but my point is not still I think you guys are missing the issue here.
Tell me.. a guy that finishes 5th at DH, 9th at MLG and 6th at an IEM event.. is that player a better player that finished 4th at DH, 5th at MLG and was not able to attend the IEM Event?
This may be a better example for you guys.
Answer that and we can then go to step 2 with the example. I think maybe may graphic was a bit overdone honestly.. but i wanted to avoid a lot of text.
Oh.. and I very well could be wrong that each 'stage' of the series of events is a different event. Ill look into that more tomorrow.
it always depends on the bracket. what if the guy who got 5th at DH lost to the winner of the tournament 3-2, while the guy who got 4th lost 0-3 to the 3rd place player who was 3-0'd by the winner?
its an impossible question to answer. and its not even what your graphic presents really. there is no perfect format. but why should the player who is putting more effort into going to more tournaments be punished because a different player can't go to all the same tournaments?
hmm.. tell me how it does.. i will fix it.. i want to make it clear without using real names of tournaments..because then we see what happens (see previous post by other users that flame about DH vs. MLG vs. Code S.. vs. online)..
this is about the math.. and i think i lay out it that PURPLE attends 3 events, ardi attends a few more and Destined attends even more.
On April 17 2013 13:52 ES_JohnClark wrote: To rename..
even if they get into top 10's (constantly, as you put it..which is an assumption you are asking me NOT to make).. the idea that you are rewarded points as 'raw' number.. meaning its just an arbitrary number thrown out there.. STILL does not mean that if you attend 2 less events then another player you wont be ranked LESS then that person (who finished 12th through 16th).
I only used examples of 'finishes'.. not real players.. not real tournaments (minus what WCS laid out as possible events).. to show the MATH and how it can work against a player that can only attend 4 of 10 events.. while it helps a player that finishes worse (on average) .. but attends 7 of 10 events.
its math guys
Its not easy to get top 16 at MLG. You don't get points just for attending. You get points for preforming well; as you should.
On April 17 2013 13:50 ES_JohnClark wrote: read the graphic again.. notice the KEY at the bottom?
in the WCS graphic.. and ill go through it some more tomorrow.. headed to bed.... you notice that they have several 'STAGES" for each.. and each are either a Premier or Challenger Stage.. and unless otherwise noted.. EACH Stage.. is a seperate event with seperate points awarded. If that is not the case..then yes.. my graphic is wrong.. but my point is not still I think you guys are missing the issue here.
Tell me.. a guy that finishes 5th at DH, 9th at MLG and 6th at an IEM event.. is that player a better player that finished 4th at DH, 5th at MLG and was not able to attend the IEM Event?
This may be a better example for you guys.
Answer that and we can then go to step 2 with the example. I think maybe may graphic was a bit overdone honestly.. but i wanted to avoid a lot of text.
Oh.. and I very well could be wrong that each 'stage' of the series of events is a different event. Ill look into that more tomorrow.
it always depends on the bracket. what if the guy who got 5th at DH lost to the winner of the tournament 3-2, while the guy who got 4th lost 0-3 to the 3rd place player who was 3-0'd by the winner?
its an impossible question to answer. and its not even what your graphic presents really. there is no perfect format. but why should the player who is putting more effort into going to more tournaments be punished because a different player can't go to all the same tournaments?
okay .. now you are getting into player vs. player rankings.. this is not at all what we are talking about. I agree with you.. again.. pointing out that I agree that each tournament should be weighted by a specific critera..but im not discussing that.. WCS is.. but we dont know yet what those are.. and im trying to show you that based on THEIR system or rewarding points.. it can skew results.
I dont think player sshould be punished.. eitherway.. and unless we have all players play all other players.. an ELO system will NEVER be a good solution for esports.. period.. but discussion for another day.
however.. a combo player vs. player ranking system that I helped create.. here http://www.esportranks.com uses an ELO + weighted + time appreciation method to give player vs. player results!
So.. a player that can only attend 4 events should NOT be punished for not being able to attend only 4 .. but finishing better at each event. Right now guys.. the only ranking system that can work with the WCS system of 'regions'.. (which are not really regions).. is a NON ELO ... Tournament PLACEMENT system. Meaning.. we cant compare player vs. player because of regions and then again.. if we do that..it defeauts the entire purpose of their points system based on FINISH.
Hope the caps helped highlight where your mistakes were in your argument
On April 17 2013 13:50 ES_JohnClark wrote: read the graphic again.. notice the KEY at the bottom?
in the WCS graphic.. and ill go through it some more tomorrow.. headed to bed.... you notice that they have several 'STAGES" for each.. and each are either a Premier or Challenger Stage.. and unless otherwise noted.. EACH Stage.. is a seperate event with seperate points awarded. If that is not the case..then yes.. my graphic is wrong.. but my point is not still I think you guys are missing the issue here.
Tell me.. a guy that finishes 5th at DH, 9th at MLG and 6th at an IEM event.. is that player a better player that finished 4th at DH, 5th at MLG and was not able to attend the IEM Event?
This may be a better example for you guys.
Answer that and we can then go to step 2 with the example. I think maybe may graphic was a bit overdone honestly.. but i wanted to avoid a lot of text.
Oh.. and I very well could be wrong that each 'stage' of the series of events is a different event. Ill look into that more tomorrow.
but why should the player who is putting more effort into going to more tournaments be punished because a different player can't go to all the same tournaments?
That's not a player putting in more effort though. That's a player being on a richer team and being able to afford to go to more tournaments.
On April 17 2013 13:50 ES_JohnClark wrote: read the graphic again.. notice the KEY at the bottom?
in the WCS graphic.. and ill go through it some more tomorrow.. headed to bed.... you notice that they have several 'STAGES" for each.. and each are either a Premier or Challenger Stage.. and unless otherwise noted.. EACH Stage.. is a seperate event with seperate points awarded. If that is not the case..then yes.. my graphic is wrong.. but my point is not still I think you guys are missing the issue here.
Tell me.. a guy that finishes 5th at DH, 9th at MLG and 6th at an IEM event.. is that player a better player that finished 4th at DH, 5th at MLG and was not able to attend the IEM Event?
This may be a better example for you guys.
Answer that and we can then go to step 2 with the example. I think maybe may graphic was a bit overdone honestly.. but i wanted to avoid a lot of text.
Oh.. and I very well could be wrong that each 'stage' of the series of events is a different event. Ill look into that more tomorrow.
it always depends on the bracket. what if the guy who got 5th at DH lost to the winner of the tournament 3-2, while the guy who got 4th lost 0-3 to the 3rd place player who was 3-0'd by the winner?
its an impossible question to answer. and its not even what your graphic presents really. there is no perfect format. but why should the player who is putting more effort into going to more tournaments be punished because a different player can't go to all the same tournaments?
okay .. now you are getting into player vs. player rankings.. this is not at all what we are talking about. I agree with you.. again.. pointing out that I agree that each tournament should be weighted by a specific critera..but im not discussing that.. WCS is.. but we dont know yet what those are.. and im trying to show you that based on THEIR system or rewarding points.. it can skew results.
I dont think player sshould be punished.. eitherway.. and unless we have all players play all other players.. an ELO system will NEVER be a good solution for esports.. period.. but discussion for another day.
however.. a combo player vs. player ranking system that I helped create.. here http://www.esportranks.com uses an ELO + weighted + time appreciation method to give player vs. player results!
So.. a player that can only attend 4 events should NOT be punished for not being able to attend only 4 .. but finishing better at each event. Right now guys.. the only ranking system that can work with the WCS system of 'regions'.. (which are not really regions).. is a NON ELO ... Tournament PLACEMENT system. Meaning.. we cant compare player vs. player because of regions and then again.. if we do that..it defeauts the entire purpose of their points system based on FINISH.
Hope the caps helped highlight where your mistakes were in your argument
Its clear you don't understand this system. The only thing points matter for is in determining who qualifies for Blizzcon. The season finals award so many points that if you don't attend and do well in 1 of the 3 you probably won't stand a chance at getting into Blizzcon. Now you wanna argue about the a few hundred points here and there that people get by finishing in the top ten of a DH or MLG and pretend that any old player could just go out and do that as long as their team flies them there? Its gonna take a minimum of 5000 points to qualify and you wanna argue the guy who gets 3rd at Assembly doesn't deserve another 100 points? How can you possibly be so certain of that right now? How is that your biggest problem with this system?
On April 17 2013 13:50 ES_JohnClark wrote: read the graphic again.. notice the KEY at the bottom?
in the WCS graphic.. and ill go through it some more tomorrow.. headed to bed.... you notice that they have several 'STAGES" for each.. and each are either a Premier or Challenger Stage.. and unless otherwise noted.. EACH Stage.. is a seperate event with seperate points awarded. If that is not the case..then yes.. my graphic is wrong.. but my point is not still I think you guys are missing the issue here.
Tell me.. a guy that finishes 5th at DH, 9th at MLG and 6th at an IEM event.. is that player a better player that finished 4th at DH, 5th at MLG and was not able to attend the IEM Event?
This may be a better example for you guys.
Answer that and we can then go to step 2 with the example. I think maybe may graphic was a bit overdone honestly.. but i wanted to avoid a lot of text.
Oh.. and I very well could be wrong that each 'stage' of the series of events is a different event. Ill look into that more tomorrow.
it always depends on the bracket. what if the guy who got 5th at DH lost to the winner of the tournament 3-2, while the guy who got 4th lost 0-3 to the 3rd place player who was 3-0'd by the winner?
its an impossible question to answer. and its not even what your graphic presents really. there is no perfect format. but why should the player who is putting more effort into going to more tournaments be punished because a different player can't go to all the same tournaments?
okay .. now you are getting into player vs. player rankings.. this is not at all what we are talking about. I agree with you.. again.. pointing out that I agree that each tournament should be weighted by a specific critera..but im not discussing that.. WCS is.. but we dont know yet what those are.. and im trying to show you that based on THEIR system or rewarding points.. it can skew results.
I dont think player sshould be punished.. eitherway.. and unless we have all players play all other players.. an ELO system will NEVER be a good solution for esports.. period.. but discussion for another day.
however.. a combo player vs. player ranking system that I helped create.. here http://www.esportranks.com uses an ELO + weighted + time appreciation method to give player vs. player results!
So.. a player that can only attend 4 events should NOT be punished for not being able to attend only 4 .. but finishing better at each event. Right now guys.. the only ranking system that can work with the WCS system of 'regions'.. (which are not really regions).. is a NON ELO ... Tournament PLACEMENT system. Meaning.. we cant compare player vs. player because of regions and then again.. if we do that..it defeauts the entire purpose of their points system based on FINISH.
Hope the caps helped highlight where your mistakes were in your argument
well actually you started the player vs player rankings when you asked which player was better....
Right now the only system that would be "fair" would be one that only judges the WCS and doesn't include non WCS events. It will be the only event where the players are the same and have the same opportunity.
On April 17 2013 13:50 ES_JohnClark wrote: read the graphic again.. notice the KEY at the bottom?
in the WCS graphic.. and ill go through it some more tomorrow.. headed to bed.... you notice that they have several 'STAGES" for each.. and each are either a Premier or Challenger Stage.. and unless otherwise noted.. EACH Stage.. is a seperate event with seperate points awarded. If that is not the case..then yes.. my graphic is wrong.. but my point is not still I think you guys are missing the issue here.
Tell me.. a guy that finishes 5th at DH, 9th at MLG and 6th at an IEM event.. is that player a better player that finished 4th at DH, 5th at MLG and was not able to attend the IEM Event?
This may be a better example for you guys.
Answer that and we can then go to step 2 with the example. I think maybe may graphic was a bit overdone honestly.. but i wanted to avoid a lot of text.
Oh.. and I very well could be wrong that each 'stage' of the series of events is a different event. Ill look into that more tomorrow.
but why should the player who is putting more effort into going to more tournaments be punished because a different player can't go to all the same tournaments?
That's not a player putting in more effort though. That's a player being on a richer team and being able to afford to go to more tournaments.
traveling around the world to compete is more effort imo.
On April 17 2013 13:50 ES_JohnClark wrote: Tell me.. a guy that finishes 5th at DH, 9th at MLG and 6th at an IEM event.. is that player a better player that finished 4th at DH, 5th at MLG and was not able to attend the IEM Event?
This may be a better example for you guys.
Who knows - maybe the player who missed the IEM would have placed 32th there.
The raw points pased system is good enough, you really need a valid example where it really misses the mark.
(My personal beef is how weekend tournaments give way too much points compared to regular season - but that is a weighing problem not system issue)
I hope all Korean players boycott WCS and GOMTV operates another league such as HOTSIX CUP with more prize money than WCS. Let's see how fun WCS will be without Korean players.
On April 17 2013 13:50 ES_JohnClark wrote: read the graphic again.. notice the KEY at the bottom?
in the WCS graphic.. and ill go through it some more tomorrow.. headed to bed.... you notice that they have several 'STAGES" for each.. and each are either a Premier or Challenger Stage.. and unless otherwise noted.. EACH Stage.. is a seperate event with seperate points awarded. If that is not the case..then yes.. my graphic is wrong.. but my point is not still I think you guys are missing the issue here.
Tell me.. a guy that finishes 5th at DH, 9th at MLG and 6th at an IEM event.. is that player a better player that finished 4th at DH, 5th at MLG and was not able to attend the IEM Event?
This may be a better example for you guys.
Answer that and we can then go to step 2 with the example. I think maybe may graphic was a bit overdone honestly.. but i wanted to avoid a lot of text.
Oh.. and I very well could be wrong that each 'stage' of the series of events is a different event. Ill look into that more tomorrow.
but why should the player who is putting more effort into going to more tournaments be punished because a different player can't go to all the same tournaments?
That's not a player putting in more effort though. That's a player being on a richer team and being able to afford to go to more tournaments.
traveling around the world to compete is more effort imo.
No it's not. Unless you believe puma put in more effort than every other korean besides mc in the early days. There were tons of krs who could have done what puma did, but were never given the opportunity to travel and beat up on foreigners.
It's what gave puma the false perception that he was better than he actually was. Eventually EG wised up to the fact puma was overrated once more krs joined foreign tourneys and cut him.
On April 17 2013 13:50 ES_JohnClark wrote: read the graphic again.. notice the KEY at the bottom?
in the WCS graphic.. and ill go through it some more tomorrow.. headed to bed.... you notice that they have several 'STAGES" for each.. and each are either a Premier or Challenger Stage.. and unless otherwise noted.. EACH Stage.. is a seperate event with seperate points awarded. If that is not the case..then yes.. my graphic is wrong.. but my point is not still I think you guys are missing the issue here.
Tell me.. a guy that finishes 5th at DH, 9th at MLG and 6th at an IEM event.. is that player a better player that finished 4th at DH, 5th at MLG and was not able to attend the IEM Event?
This may be a better example for you guys.
Answer that and we can then go to step 2 with the example. I think maybe may graphic was a bit overdone honestly.. but i wanted to avoid a lot of text.
Oh.. and I very well could be wrong that each 'stage' of the series of events is a different event. Ill look into that more tomorrow.
but why should the player who is putting more effort into going to more tournaments be punished because a different player can't go to all the same tournaments?
That's not a player putting in more effort though. That's a player being on a richer team and being able to afford to go to more tournaments.
traveling around the world to compete is more effort imo.
No it's not. Unless you believe puma put in more effort than every other korean besides mc in the early days. There were tons of krs who could have done what puma did, but were never given the opportunity to travel and beat up on foreigners.
It's what gave puma the false perception that he was better than he actually was. Eventually EG wised up to the fact puma was overrated once more krs joined foreign tourneys and cut him.
The level Puma played at in 2011 vs 2012 is a completely different subject. He was an incredible player in 2011 (not cause he won foreign events, but because he would beat top koreans at all those events).
And in the case of Puma, he would most likely be in the NA division. And he was putting in more effort than most players in the NA division.
Korea is in an interesting position since several Korean players travel MUCH more than others. But most of those traveling Koreans aren't even playing in the KR region so it mitigates that problem quite a bit. And since majority of Koreans only travel to tournaments that pay their way there, which usually has a qualifier that most koreans play in, its not as big of a problem.
On April 17 2013 04:59 MCXD wrote: Points system is super, super terrible. Like, super unbelievably terrible. I could probably dedicate an article to picking apart all of the absolutely stupid things about it, but I won't (maybe), because it's not like going to all of that effort would change anything v_v
Every player currently in Code B (esp Korean) is completely fucked over, and every player in Code S is laughing, no questions asked, because Blizzard refused to be intelligent and creative with their point allocations and just went for the brain-dead approach that ignored the nature of tiering. Incredibly frustrating. I feel for the progamers who have to put up with it.
Here's something else to put it into perspective: A player who wins a GSL then immediately drops out of the GSL still has a decent shot of getting to the season final; if they win that then disappears from the face of the earth (retires even) they will still have more points than a player who gets 4 consecutive 2nd place finishes in the GSL. Also a player who goes 0-4 in the Code S Ro32 and 0-2 in their first Code A match to fall straight to Code B, walks away with equal amounts of points as the players who won every single Code A match that season.
Consistency, eh? That makes me laugh.
Youre misreading the point systems A player who wins a GSL gets 1.5k points. He'd also have to win the seasons finals = 3k points and then he's pretty much locked in for grand finals
Also whoever qualifies for Code S from Code A will automatically get at least the Ro32 points too... The point system is not that bad Its the money and the allocation of seeds which is the problem.
I see your point. The Code S money should be a bit higher as it would make more sense. Something to consider though is that the Code A money is significantly larger for Korea than it is for NA/EU. So much so that the 41-64th place Korean Code A player gets more money than the 1st place NA/EU player. That's pretty nice. I do think that they need a bit more money in Code S to be more realistic, however it's not realistic to give that money away right now most likely.
Also, if you really think about it, this format is going to keep Korea in a very sustainable position, allowing a very viable professional scene to florish so long as the scene and the teams are well supported. The format is also going to allow for top NA/EU players to actually play SC2 seriously and professionally. An American isn't going to have to be in EG in order to quit their job and play only SC2 (although they will need a team to support them, they don't have to be filthy rich).
It really seems like this format is going to allow NA and EU to play catch up, while not hurting Korea's financial stability.
Sure it sucks to not get filthy rich off of 1 tournament, but eSports isn't about getting filthy rich off of 1 tournament. This is aiming for a more globalized setting for eSports and SC2.
Another look at the points system makes me believe it's still not too bad. It's going to reward those NA/EU players who devoted themselves to their new found profession over the last year, and not someone who simply had a good tournament. At the same time, Koreans are still going to get more money than them because they are going to take the top places, because they are the best in the world.
Eventually though, because this system is supporting the growth of NA and EU, the level of gameplay we see in the global finals will improve.
I feel you're going to be angry whenever anyone who's not a Korean is playing because they aren't as good as Koreans, but that's not what anyone else is worried about here. The issue at hand is the growth of eSports and SC2.
I like watching EU/NA games. Ive been following the EU qualifiers for the past two days passively because guys like Sterlok and Bunny have produced some entertaining games. However, I am going to be angry if I see a far more inferior player make it to the season finals over one of the 10s of better Korean betters that could have taken his place.
Blizzard, I feel, has stunted the growth of Korean E-sports for NA/EU to basically catch up. The problem is....Korea has still A LOT of work to do in terms of esports growth. HoTS + Kespa players switching over did pull a few people in but not enough..or relevant enough to gain that full bw crowd into the SPL/GSTL stands. Not a lot of people care about sc2 in Korea than people think, staying away because its not "original" and "easy"..at least speaking to my relatives/cousins etc.
Another point to make is that..I was excited at the prospect of OSL/GSL because of the fact that it brings back the duo tournaments (and I'm speaking as also a bw fan here) when it was OSL/MSL running at the same time. The GSL becoming the new MSL. But nope, they took that away. On top of that...they combined the two and made the winner of the combined "OSL/GSL" tournament..which should be prestrigious as EVER, some entry ticket to some season finale...while throw a bit of money at the winner and giving a paper that says "Good Job".
lol. They didn't stunt anything. They're taking menu away from people who made too much for their own good anyways. They aren't stopping anyone's careers from developing like you're trying to ensinuate. Your relatives I bet get stomped on the ladder and complain that it's too easy. Korea is stuck on BW because of stubbornness, and just need time for that generation of people to pass for more fans to come in. Any grumpy old man will stand by their beliefs even when told by everyone that they're wrong, so the growth of SC2 in Korea isn't being hindered by this at all. Teams and money are still stable in Korea, and the biggest way to improve eSports and make SC2 more popular in Korea is to make it self sustainable and progressive, rather than giving 1 person a lot of money and making everyone else's financial status a joke.
As for OSL/MSL, they got OGN on board the GSL, making the tournament a lot more widespread. Stop being so selfish and just realize that this is an awesome thing to happen!! In fact, they might even add an OSL later on after this has so much success come its way!
The system is good, the players are good, the money is good (I do hope that the lower ends get a bit more money in the near future). This is a great thing that's happening. Korea is even making significantly more money than NA/EU (being that its going to the people who make the least money, I do consider it very significant even though its not thousands upon thousands of dollars). Hold your horses and watch this good thing bloom into a great thing. Blizzard still has a lot to learn, but they are putting a great machine to work here.
On April 17 2013 04:59 MCXD wrote: Points system is super, super terrible. Like, super unbelievably terrible. I could probably dedicate an article to picking apart all of the absolutely stupid things about it, but I won't (maybe), because it's not like going to all of that effort would change anything v_v
Every player currently in Code B (esp Korean) is completely fucked over, and every player in Code S is laughing, no questions asked, because Blizzard refused to be intelligent and creative with their point allocations and just went for the brain-dead approach that ignored the nature of tiering. Incredibly frustrating. I feel for the progamers who have to put up with it.
Here's something else to put it into perspective: A player who wins a GSL then immediately drops out of the GSL still has a decent shot of getting to the season final; if they win that then disappears from the face of the earth (retires even) they will still have more points than a player who gets 4 consecutive 2nd place finishes in the GSL. Also a player who goes 0-4 in the Code S Ro32 and 0-2 in their first Code A match to fall straight to Code B, walks away with equal amounts of points as the players who won every single Code A match that season.
Consistency, eh? That makes me laugh.
Youre misreading the point systems A player who wins a GSL gets 1.5k points. He'd also have to win the seasons finals = 3k points and then he's pretty much locked in for grand finals
Also whoever qualifies for Code S from Code A will automatically get at least the Ro32 points too... The point system is not that bad Its the money and the allocation of seeds which is the problem.
I see your point. The Code S money should be a bit higher as it would make more sense. Something to consider though is that the Code A money is significantly larger for Korea than it is for NA/EU. So much so that the 41-64th place Korean Code A player gets more money than the 1st place NA/EU player. That's pretty nice. I do think that they need a bit more money in Code S to be more realistic, however it's not realistic to give that money away right now most likely.
Also, if you really think about it, this format is going to keep Korea in a very sustainable position, allowing a very viable professional scene to florish so long as the scene and the teams are well supported. The format is also going to allow for top NA/EU players to actually play SC2 seriously and professionally. An American isn't going to have to be in EG in order to quit their job and play only SC2 (although they will need a team to support them, they don't have to be filthy rich).
It really seems like this format is going to allow NA and EU to play catch up, while not hurting Korea's financial stability.
Sure it sucks to not get filthy rich off of 1 tournament, but eSports isn't about getting filthy rich off of 1 tournament. This is aiming for a more globalized setting for eSports and SC2.
Another look at the points system makes me believe it's still not too bad. It's going to reward those NA/EU players who devoted themselves to their new found profession over the last year, and not someone who simply had a good tournament. At the same time, Koreans are still going to get more money than them because they are going to take the top places, because they are the best in the world.
Eventually though, because this system is supporting the growth of NA and EU, the level of gameplay we see in the global finals will improve.
I feel you're going to be angry whenever anyone who's not a Korean is playing because they aren't as good as Koreans, but that's not what anyone else is worried about here. The issue at hand is the growth of eSports and SC2.
I like watching EU/NA games. Ive been following the EU qualifiers for the past two days passively because guys like Sterlok and Bunny have produced some entertaining games. However, I am going to be angry if I see a far more inferior player make it to the season finals over one of the 10s of better Korean betters that could have taken his place.
Blizzard, I feel, has stunted the growth of Korean E-sports for NA/EU to basically catch up. The problem is....Korea has still A LOT of work to do in terms of esports growth. HoTS + Kespa players switching over did pull a few people in but not enough..or relevant enough to gain that full bw crowd into the SPL/GSTL stands. Not a lot of people care about sc2 in Korea than people think, staying away because its not "original" and "easy"..at least speaking to my relatives/cousins etc.
Another point to make is that..I was excited at the prospect of OSL/GSL because of the fact that it brings back the duo tournaments (and I'm speaking as also a bw fan here) when it was OSL/MSL running at the same time. The GSL becoming the new MSL. But nope, they took that away. On top of that...they combined the two and made the winner of the combined "OSL/GSL" tournament..which should be prestrigious as EVER, some entry ticket to some season finale...while throw a bit of money at the winner and giving a paper that says "Good Job".
Korea is stuck on BW because of stubbornness, and just need time for that generation of people to pass for more fans to come in. Any grumpy old man will stand by their beliefs even when told by everyone that they're wrong, so the growth of SC2 in Korea isn't being hindered by this at all.
Oh wow... way to aggressively generalize a massive amount of people on the basis of your own personal, unfounded and misguided assumptions.
People did move on from BW, at least many of them did. Do you know where they went? To League of Legends and World of Tanks and other free to play games.
I'm sorry, but StarCraft 2 has never been popular in Korea, not as popular as BW nor as popular as LoL. It's true, the scene has been fairly stable despite some teams disbanding etc, but if you think Blizzard is helping this stability by fucking over the tournaments in that region... then lol.
On April 17 2013 14:20 skideff wrote: I hope all Korean players boycott WCS and GOMTV operates another league such as HOTSIX CUP with more prize money than WCS. Let's see how fun WCS will be without Korean players.
That will never happen.
Reasons: 1. Kespa players have no reason to do that. PL is more important than anything for Kespa. They wouldn't dare Blizzard 2. ESF players cannot afford it. If ESF players don't part in WCS, their income will decrease so far so much, and teams like NSH or Prime will be next Zenex. 3. Gomtv cannot operate another league boycotting WCS.KR. Blizzard will never allow it. 4. HOTSIX will not investigate that much money. All the prize money from the previous GSL was from Blizz. not from the sponsors. Sponsors will not think the league worths that much money( more prize money + running cost) 5. Even if Kespa and ESF boycotts, there are still many Korean Players in WCS, including AXIOM players, Liquid, EG, etc. Even though not all of them are the greatest, Blizz. still can run WCS without too much problems.
I read quite a bit of the last few pages, but sorry: I still don't get the uproar about the price money and points. Would anyone be so kind and explain?
koreans are rightfully pissed, blizzard should have region locked this from the beginning, now its too late to go back i guess
code s with the same price pool as eu/na events? no wonder they are furious. and every korean player is now in the unfortunate situation in which they have to constantly consider going to another region to compete
on the other hand, upcoming eu and na players are just gonna get rolled by koreans, so our scenes arent getting boosted either
seriously region locked wcs is the only logical thing they should do, with higher price pool in korea like its always been with code s
Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000
So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue.
Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us."
Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here?
The calculations don't take into acount that top5/6 are qualified for season finals, which is at the minimum 5k more, also they take at least 500 points more.
For GSL you can expect the top players will not go down in first round so they are likely to end up making more money then the current GSL prize system allows them.
On April 17 2013 17:21 Mirrikh wrote: The calculations don't take into acount that top5/6 are qualified for season finals, which is at the minimum 5k more, also they take at least 500 points more.
For GSL you can expect the top players will not go down in first round so they are likely to end up making more money then the current GSL prize system allows them.
Yes, but that only adds to my point, no? Why such an outrage?
Anyone else just SLIGHTLY disappointed that Sc2 does not have a million dollar tourny? I get that Dota and LoL are team sports, so each player only gets 250k from the big win, but shit, why dont we even have that? I like the prize pool im just sad that the winner at the end only gets 100 grand. You win the biggest tournament in the sc2 world and all you get is 2 NASL prize pools? (season 1 that is)
I'm confused. When blizz turned GSL into WCS did they also say that they were fronting all the prize money? Like is GOM no longer paying the players as well?
On April 17 2013 17:30 thejamster wrote: I'm confused. When blizz turned GSL into WCS did they also say that they were fronting all the prize money? Like is GOM no longer paying the players as well?
As far as I got it, "GOM's money" was Blizzard's money before.
On April 17 2013 17:28 Deathmanbob wrote: Anyone else just SLIGHTLY disappointed that Sc2 does not have a million dollar tourny? I get that Dota and LoL are team sports, so each player only gets 250k from the big win, but shit, why dont we even have that? I like the prize pool im just sad that the winner at the end only gets 100 grand. You win the biggest tournament in the sc2 world and all you get is 2 NASL prize pools? (season 1 that is)
Lots of smaller prize pools are better than one big prize pool, every team that doesn't win the big tournament in Dota and LoL aren't making much in prize money.
Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000
So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue.
Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us."
Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here?
What bloody cheek from Choya honestly. WCS NA and WCS EU are not replacing any Korean tournaments. Blizzard is not taking away any money from GSL, and putting it into WCS NA/EU, except for the Seasonal Finals, which will be dominated by top Koreans except for a couple of Europeans. Had Blizzard kept it region locked, as it was in 2012, they wouldn't even have the option to participate in foreign WCS regions, but now players who otherwise wouldn't have made it past Code A have a shot at it.
Even without WCS, if you weren't the best in South Korea, you'd still be living off scraps. Now they have the option to participate in foreign regions so they can have a much easier route towards the money, why the hell is he whining. And it isn't exactly the same either, Challenger League in Korea is much, much more rewarding than challenger in EU/NA.
On April 17 2013 17:21 Mirrikh wrote: The calculations don't take into acount that top5/6 are qualified for season finals, which is at the minimum 5k more, also they take at least 500 points more.
For GSL you can expect the top players will not go down in first round so they are likely to end up making more money then the current GSL prize system allows them.
Yes, but that only adds to my point, no? Why such an outrage?
You have to do more work to earn around the same amount or just a bit more or a lot less. Even if they earn more it's at the cost of one entire season of prize money less from the GSL and an entire separate tournament in the form of the OSL being merged into the GSL instead of being another opportunity like before. The Koreans were forced into this tournament because GSL got turned into WCS, instead of getting an additional tournament like the other regions. Now they earn less money up-front from the hardest tournament in the world, and have a chance of earning much less than before if they're unlucky or suffering from jet lag e.t.c at the season final.
Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000
So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue.
Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us."
Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here?
So mostly they're getting more from WCS Korea than with GSL, not even counting the fact that koreans are taking the money of other regions as well?
A hard region lock and a lopsided prize pool does make sense, but if Blizzard is making a business decision to grow esports in other nations by adding additional money to those scenes while not really taking money away from korea, who are they to feel entitled to that money as well.
On April 17 2013 17:21 Mirrikh wrote: The calculations don't take into acount that top5/6 are qualified for season finals, which is at the minimum 5k more, also they take at least 500 points more.
For GSL you can expect the top players will not go down in first round so they are likely to end up making more money then the current GSL prize system allows them.
Yes, but that only adds to my point, no? Why such an outrage?
You have to do more work to earn around the same amount or just a bit more or a lot less. Even if they earn more it's at the cost of one entire season of prize money less from the GSL and an entire separate tournament in the form of the OSL being merged into the GSL instead of being another opportunity like before. The Koreans were forced into this tournament because GSL got turned into WCS, instead of getting an additional tournament like the other regions. Now they earn less money up-front from the hardest tournament in the world, and have a chance of earning much less than before if they're unlucky or suffering from jet lag e.t.c at the season final.
I still don't get it.
2012: 5 Seasons of GSL x $112,551 = $562,755
Let's assume KR only takes 50% of the pricemoney in Season and Global finals (and we know it will be more): 2013: 1 GSL x $123,624 + 3 WCS KR x $100,000 + 3 Season Finals x $150,000 x 50% + 1 Global Final x $250,000 x 50% = $773,624
On April 17 2013 00:38 LighT. wrote: beat me to it.
Cons: - They took away the prestige of GSL/OSL further by completely depleting the prize pool for 1st/2nd place. Winner receiving 20k is like nothing compared to last year... - Seasons Finals: 5/5/5 +1 format. It should have been biased more towards Korea than Europe/America Maybe something like 4/4/7+Parting, and then the next season: 4/4/8
5/5/5 +1 format is setting up for some cannon fodder for players like Life/Parting/Innovation/Flash against some of the lower NA/EU players
More like 2/5/9 imo. Eu is miles ahead of america. Edit: This is ofc if the koreans werent alowed to play on EU/NA
Edit - This post was meant to be on page 15 (though as I was writing it, it's on page 16 and people are now talking about the main topic against instead of SC2's status in South Korea >.>).
In terms of maybe why BW is still doing better in South Korea compared to SC2:
I think one of the major disappointing things in SC2 the lack of ability for a lot of units to be microed in the way like in BW. Like dancing Mutalisks back and forth for example (how you can move back and forth with a unit without losing speed/acceleration while they attack or drop, like with Mutalisk, Vultures, and Shuttles + Reavers). (I say "dance" instead of "moveshot" because when people say or think of moveshot, they think simply just attacking and moving at the same time "but" that's only one part of it. When you moveshot, you simply order a unit to attack something, then you quickly order the unit to move. Dancing around, is more complicated than that because it requires you to attack the units directly, or you need to make sure the unit is facing the target before you issue an attack move/hold position or else the unit will slow down before attacking. In terms of patrol micro, you need to gauge the distant between your mutalisks and your opponent's scourge before using patrol, then once you patrol, you need to immediately move the same direction your Mutalisks were already moving.)
When you see something like this, you probably would want to like to have it in the sequel too: + Show Spoiler +
Not a lot of people care about sc2 in Korea than people think, staying away because its not "original" and "easy"..at least speaking to my relatives/cousins etc.
Your relatives I bet get stomped on the ladder and complain that it's too easy.
I say the whole easy vs harder debate leads to the wrong conclusion of what is actually missing with SC2 from BW.
I say both SC2 and BW have relatively the same "skill ceiling" (in the sense it's hard to be the top player - Players have proven there is a skill gap and a skill ceiling, like with Life and MVP [During MVP's prime]). What SC2 lacks compared to BW is more ways to micro individual units (and lots of players liked playing with a small group of individual units and doing fancy things with them), which is more of a "skill room" thing (well not sure if that's an accurate way of saying it).
Here is an analogy I made with Chess Boxing (as "skill ceiling" vs just a bigger "skill room") + Show Spoiler +
An analogy is BW is like Chess boxing while SC2 is boxing "or" chess by itself (but not both). The skill ceiling is potentially the same but the skill room is different (bigger in BW). In Chess boxing, you can win as long as you can dominate in either chess or boxing, if you can do both that's great. If you're not good at chess but good at boxing, you may still have a chance to win (for example). (I use "skill room" instead of skill ceiling because using skill ceiling alone may be deceiving and may not shed light on the potential problems of a game. Technically, you can say the skill ceiling of Chess Boxing is higher than chess or boxing individually but saying skill room to focus on the fact that there are multiple ways to win is easier to understand IMO.)
Now, the issue isn't "SC2 isn't hard enough", it's "you can only play a certain way to win SC2" compared to BW (in BW, you could win with a lot of games by just controlling your units better than your opponent).
(That's also why I think Flash, out of TBLS, is doing the best in SC2. Flash is most known for his game sense rather than his mechanics in BW compared to the other 3. And in SC2, game sense and strategy matters more than how well you control you can micro your units, which is potential why Bisu, Jaedong, and Stork aren't doing as well as Flash... of course it could be because Flash is just Flash.)
The point isn't that BW is hard though. The point is that BW had more ways to use/control your units (and more ways to have fun) than in SC2. And that point isn't just about any micro trick (using your Widow Mines and switching targets back and forth quickly to hold fire isn't very fun or practical for example).
It's how units like Mutalisk could be microed (which were actually easy to pull off, very practical to use, and satisfying and fun to pull off correctly).
I really think that simply adding in some form of moveshot/dancing that is as similar to BW as possible (and adding the Reaver back) can really make SC2 that much of a better game. (Obviously some things, like using a unit far away in your control group to stack air units should be done in a different way.)
That's one of the major differences between what you can do in BW compared to SC2, and I don't think it would be a big deal if they tried to add some form of that in SC2.
Back to the BW vs SC2 in terms of difficulty discussion again - I say the only real hard thing (compared to SC2) in BW is the control groups being limited (to 12) and the fact you can't build stuff if you have 2 or more workers selected (and you can't shift/queue build with structures the same way you can in SC2).
Things like lack of automine and multiple building select in BW is countered by macro mechanics in SC2 (larva injects, creep spreading, and making sure your structures are chrono boosted are acceptable replacements IMO).
Things like being able to micro or dance your Mutalisk in BW isn't something that makes BW "harder", it makes the game better by allowing the player more ways to play the game their style. So, that's why I said saying SC2 is an easier game than BW is the wrong approach IMO. The only real "hard for the sake of being hard" things in BW is (again) the control groups and how workers can't build stuff if you have two or more selected. SC2 introduces a few macro mechanics for each race that counters the addition of automine and MBS, like managing your queen with larva injects (for example).
On April 17 2013 17:21 Mirrikh wrote: The calculations don't take into acount that top5/6 are qualified for season finals, which is at the minimum 5k more, also they take at least 500 points more.
For GSL you can expect the top players will not go down in first round so they are likely to end up making more money then the current GSL prize system allows them.
Yes, but that only adds to my point, no? Why such an outrage?
You have to do more work to earn around the same amount or just a bit more or a lot less. Even if they earn more it's at the cost of one entire season of prize money less from the GSL and an entire separate tournament in the form of the OSL being merged into the GSL instead of being another opportunity like before. The Koreans were forced into this tournament because GSL got turned into WCS, instead of getting an additional tournament like the other regions. Now they earn less money up-front from the hardest tournament in the world, and have a chance of earning much less than before if they're unlucky or suffering from jet lag e.t.c at the season final.
I still don't get it.
2012: 5 Seasons of GSL x $112,551 = $562,755
Let's assume KR only takes 50% of the pricemoney in Season and Global finals (and we know it will be more): 2013: 1 GSL x $123,624 + 3 WCS KR x $100,000 + 3 Season Finals x $150,000 x 50% + 1 Global Final x $250,000 x 50% = $773,624
The major difference is that in 2012, Koreans could earn from the GSL "and" the WCS too.
So 2012: 5 Seasons of GSL x $112,551 = $562,755 + $25,980 (WCS Korea) + $60k (WCS Asia) + $250,000 (WCS Global, though technically only 6 Koreans were in WCS but take note most of the meat of the money is to the top players, which all Koreans plus Sen got, with 3 Koreans in top 3, that's $156k to Koreans alone in that tournament) = at least that (if not more).
Edit - I counted the money (just Koreans) earned from last WCS, and I'll add them here. WCS Korea (since it's Koreans only of course) is $25,980 + $45.6k out of $60k (from WCS Asia) and again $156k (from the 3 out of 4 Koreans in the top 4) from WCS Global. That's 227k Koreans earned from WCS (add that to the initial 562k from all GSLs that's 789 + 1 OSL ( $93,300 ) and that's 882k which is slightly higher than 773k this year).
Okay, 882k compared to a 773k (which to be fair, may be higher depending on how many Koreans wins as you said).
"However", you included the 2013 non-WCS GSL this year (which is $123,624 for Code S). Will that remain in 2014? If there will be 4 WCS events (or any combination of GSL and OSL) in 2014, then it's not really a big prize cut, true.
I'm really worried about the only 8 new spots for Challenger League each season on America and Europe. The korean qualifiers has a player limit of 512 players, and they never fill, for 22 spots. While, if the ESL qualifiers are an indication, each qualifier was full (1024 players), and they will be fighting for a much smaller number of spots.
On April 17 2013 17:14 Tsubbi wrote: koreans are rightfully pissed, blizzard should have region locked this from the beginning, now its too late to go back i guess
code s with the same price pool as eu/na events? no wonder they are furious. and every korean player is now in the unfortunate situation in which they have to constantly consider going to another region to compete
on the other hand, upcoming eu and na players are just gonna get rolled by koreans, so our scenes arent getting boosted either
seriously region locked wcs is the only logical thing they should do, with higher price pool in korea like its always been with code s
I don't agree. Blizzard is doing the right thing. The idea is to balance all the regions, by giving equal incentives to all o them. Koreans won't get less money that they got last year... Check out other posts.
Edit - This post was meant to be on page 15 (though as I was writing it, it's on page 16 and people are now talking about the main topic against instead of SC2's status in South Korea >.>).
In terms of maybe why BW is still doing better in South Korea compared to SC2:
I think one of the major disappointing things in SC2 the lack of ability for a lot of units to be microed in the way like in BW. Like dancing Mutalisks back and forth for example (how you can move back and forth with a unit without losing speed/acceleration while they attack or drop, like with Mutalisk, Vultures, and Shuttles + Reavers). (I say "dance" instead of "moveshot" because when people say or think of moveshot, they think simply just attacking and moving at the same time "but" that's only one part of it. When you moveshot, you simply order a unit to attack something, then you quickly order the unit to move. Dancing around, is more complicated than that because it requires you to attack the units directly, or you need to make sure the unit is facing the target before you issue an attack move/hold position or else the unit will slow down before attacking. In terms of patrol micro, you need to gauge the distant between your mutalisks and your opponent's scourge before using patrol, then once you patrol, you need to immediately move the same direction your Mutalisks were already moving.)
When you see something like this, you probably would want to like to have it in the sequel too: + Show Spoiler +
Not a lot of people care about sc2 in Korea than people think, staying away because its not "original" and "easy"..at least speaking to my relatives/cousins etc.
Your relatives I bet get stomped on the ladder and complain that it's too easy.
I say the whole easy vs harder debate leads to the wrong conclusion of what is actually missing with SC2 from BW.
I say both SC2 and BW have relatively the same "skill ceiling" (in the sense it's hard to be the top player - Players have proven there is a skill gap and a skill ceiling, like with Life and MVP [During MVP's prime]). What SC2 lacks compared to BW is more ways to micro individual units (and lots of players liked playing with a small group of individual units and doing fancy things with them), which is more of a "skill room" thing (well not sure if that's an accurate way of saying it).
Here is an analogy I made with Chess Boxing (as "skill ceiling" vs just a bigger "skill room") + Show Spoiler +
An analogy is BW is like Chess boxing while SC2 is boxing "or" chess by itself (but not both). The skill ceiling is potentially the same but the skill room is different (bigger in BW). In Chess boxing, you can win as long as you can dominate in either chess or boxing, if you can do both that's great. If you're not good at chess but good at boxing, you may still have a chance to win (for example). (I use "skill room" instead of skill ceiling because using skill ceiling alone may be deceiving and may not shed light on the potential problems of a game. Technically, you can say the skill ceiling of Chess Boxing is higher than chess or boxing individually but saying skill room to focus on the fact that there are multiple ways to win is easier to understand IMO.)
Now, the issue isn't "SC2 isn't hard enough", it's "you can only play a certain way to win SC2" compared to BW (in BW, you could win with a lot of games by just controlling your units better than your opponent).
(That's also why I think Flash, out of TBLS, is doing the best in SC2. Flash is most known for his game sense rather than his mechanics in BW compared to the other 3. And in SC2, game sense and strategy matters more than how well you control you can micro your units, which is potential why Bisu, Jaedong, and Stork aren't doing as well as Flash... of course it could be because Flash is just Flash.)
The point isn't that BW is hard though. The point is that BW had more ways to use/control your units (and more ways to have fun) than in SC2. And that point isn't just about any micro trick (using your Widow Mines and switching targets back and forth quickly to hold fire isn't very fun or practical for example).
It's how units like Mutalisk could be microed (which were actually easy to pull off, very practical to use, and satisfying and fun to pull off correctly).
I really think that simply adding in some form of moveshot/dancing that is as similar to BW as possible (and adding the Reaver back) can really make SC2 that much of a better game. (Obviously some things, like using a unit far away in your control group to stack air units should be done in a different way.)
That's one of the major differences between what you can do in BW compared to SC2, and I don't think it would be a big deal if they tried to add some form of that in SC2.
Back to the BW vs SC2 in terms of difficulty discussion again - I say the only real hard thing (compared to SC2) in BW is the control groups being limited (to 12) and the fact you can't build stuff if you have 2 or more workers selected (and you can't shift/queue build with structures the same way you can in SC2).
Things like lack of automine and multiple building select in BW is countered by macro mechanics in SC2 (larva injects, creep spreading, and making sure your structures are chrono boosted are acceptable replacements IMO).
Things like being able to micro or dance your Mutalisk in BW isn't something that makes BW "harder", it makes the game better by allowing the player more ways to play the game their style. So, that's why I said saying SC2 is an easier game than BW is the wrong approach IMO. The only real "hard for the sake of being hard" things in BW is (again) the control groups and how workers can't build stuff if you have two or more selected. SC2 introduces a few macro mechanics for each race that counters the addition of automine and MBS, like managing your queen with larva injects (for example).
While everything you say has already been said hundreds of times, there is definitely merit to this. But let me add another angle to it. SC2 is also too hard for the more casual players. So you have this weird situation where it doesn't have quite the same degree of depth that Brood War did in terms of what you can pull off in a game (such as the micro you were mentioning) that is satisfying for both player and spectator, and at the same time it's not as easy to get into as some other free to play games that have emerged recently. And even then, it doesn't do a great job with maintaining its player base, terrible BNet 2.0 and all that. It's ironic how initially people ragged on Blizzard for integrating Facebook into BNet 2.0, but we've come to the conclusion that the social aspect of the game is greatly lacking.
And here's the thing, even if some would argue that there are still pretty awesome plays and memorable games being played quite frequently (which there are, no doubt about that), the fact remains that for a good year or so the game was pretty silly even at the top level, bad maps, bad builds, just poor play in general. A lot of the people who would most likely have embraced the game with open arms simply got tired of that and either remained with BW or moved on to newer, more casual games.
I wonder how the Korean players are gonna handle the live rounds in NA/EU. With their presence being required for like 5 days, it´s gonna cost them dearly and that for every season. Maybe some new partnerships or open training house concepts will arise from this?
EDIT: Or the feared Korean-reign won´t happen because most will stay in Korea.
On April 17 2013 17:21 Mirrikh wrote: The calculations don't take into acount that top5/6 are qualified for season finals, which is at the minimum 5k more, also they take at least 500 points more.
For GSL you can expect the top players will not go down in first round so they are likely to end up making more money then the current GSL prize system allows them.
Yes, but that only adds to my point, no? Why such an outrage?
You have to do more work to earn around the same amount or just a bit more or a lot less. Even if they earn more it's at the cost of one entire season of prize money less from the GSL and an entire separate tournament in the form of the OSL being merged into the GSL instead of being another opportunity like before. The Koreans were forced into this tournament because GSL got turned into WCS, instead of getting an additional tournament like the other regions. Now they earn less money up-front from the hardest tournament in the world, and have a chance of earning much less than before if they're unlucky or suffering from jet lag e.t.c at the season final.
I still don't get it.
2012: 5 Seasons of GSL x $112,551 = $562,755
Let's assume KR only takes 50% of the pricemoney in Season and Global finals (and we know it will be more): 2013: 1 GSL x $123,624 + 3 WCS KR x $100,000 + 3 Season Finals x $150,000 x 50% + 1 Global Final x $250,000 x 50% = $773,624
The major difference is that in 2012, Koreans could earn from the GSL "and" the WCS too.
So 2012: 5 Seasons of GSL x $112,551 = $562,755 + $25,980 (WCS Korea) + $60k (WCS Asia) + $250,000 (WCS Global, though technically only 6 Koreans were in WCS but take note most of the meat of the money is to the top players, which all Koreans plus Sen got, with 3 Koreans in top 3, that's $156k to Koreans alone in that tournament) = at least that (if not more).
Edit - I counted the money (just Koreans) earned from last WCS, and I'll add them here. WCS Korea (since it's Koreans only of course) is $25,980 + $45.6k out of $60k (from WCS Asia) and again $156k (from the 3 out of 4 Koreans in the top 4) from WCS Global. That's 227k Koreans earned from WCS (add that to the initial 562k from all GSLs that's 789 + 1 OSL ( $93,300 ) and that's 882k which is slightly higher than 773k this year).
Okay, 882k compared to a 773k (which to be fair, may be higher depending on how many Koreans wins as you said).
"However", you included the 2013 non-WCS GSL this year (which is $123,624 for Code S). Will that remain in 2014? If there will be 4 WCS events (or any combination of GSL and OSL) in 2014, then it's not really a big prize cut, true.
Yes, you are correct. I should have included 2012s WCS. Based on that you could take in the full earnings of 2012, while I took only half of the possible earnings in for 2013 the result is basically even. I don't know what will happen 2014, but there will for sure be adjustments. In the end: I still can't see the reason for the oproar. Code S KR gets more or less the same money out of it in 2013 as they got in 2012.
Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000
So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue.
Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us."
Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here?
yep cant see problem top2 in gsl will make good in finals so +20k more and then global finals they get more too ... whats the point ?
Unless I am missing something, Blizzard has not yet announced how you qualify for the season finals, right?
They said that it will be top 5 from each region +1 extra from host region. But what means top 5? The WCS premiere division goes into a single elimination bracket with the final 8 players, so you will easily get the top 4, but how do you get the 5th (and 6th for host region)?
Or will they not go by WCS premiere division placement, but by points? This could make for some awkward situations where some non-wcs tournaments that give out points could make the difference for players making the season finals or not...
Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000
So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue.
Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us."
Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here?
choya not gonna win gsl, dreamhack or ironsquid ever! Everyone should stop whining and just go for it!
In a ranking system there a choices to make. Like, i could give points for tournaments, for playing other players (get more when u cheese stephano then a semipro) etcetcetc... For now, i like the system blizzard introduced and i see it as viable. Lets just see how everything turns out.
Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000
So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue.
Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us."
Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here?
choya not gonna win gsl, dreamhack or ironsquid ever! Everyone should stop whining and just go for it!
What a narrow-minded way to view things. Choya is the headcoach for FXO, his interest in this matter goes far beyond his career as a player; it's his duty to look after the FXO players.
Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000
So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue.
Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us."
Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here?
choya not gonna win gsl, dreamhack or ironsquid ever! Everyone should stop whining and just go for it!
What a narrow-minded way to view things. Choya is the headcoach for FXO, his interest in this matter goes far beyond his career as a player; it's his duty to look after the FXO players.
Still he is doing like the world would end, which I can't see from the numbers.
Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000
So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue.
Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us."
Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here?
choya not gonna win gsl, dreamhack or ironsquid ever! Everyone should stop whining and just go for it!
What a narrow-minded way to view things. Choya is the headcoach for FXO, his interest in this matter goes far beyond his career as a player; it's his duty to look after the FXO players.
Ill be honest. While typing that message I thought he was a player, my bad (apologies). But still, i believe the format is not bad to start off with.
Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000
So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue.
Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us."
Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here?
choya not gonna win gsl, dreamhack or ironsquid ever! Everyone should stop whining and just go for it!
What a narrow-minded way to view things. Choya is the headcoach for FXO, his interest in this matter goes far beyond his career as a player; it's his duty to look after the FXO players.
The tweet is pretty whiney and emo for a head coach. The part about “We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country,” was pretty much true before all of this happened. Also, his players do have more options to compete world wide with WCS, which is more exposure for his team. The issue with the prize money has become to much of a focus for people, in my opinion. As Artosis said, players can’t live off prize money and the exposure for the team almost more important.
On April 17 2013 04:59 MCXD wrote: Points system is super, super terrible. Like, super unbelievably terrible. I could probably dedicate an article to picking apart all of the absolutely stupid things about it, but I won't (maybe), because it's not like going to all of that effort would change anything v_v
Every player currently in Code B (esp Korean) is completely fucked over, and every player in Code S is laughing, no questions asked, because Blizzard refused to be intelligent and creative with their point allocations and just went for the brain-dead approach that ignored the nature of tiering. Incredibly frustrating. I feel for the progamers who have to put up with it.
Here's something else to put it into perspective: A player who wins a GSL then immediately drops out of the GSL still has a decent shot of getting to the season final; if they win that then disappears from the face of the earth (retires even) they will still have more points than a player who gets 4 consecutive 2nd place finishes in the GSL. Also a player who goes 0-4 in the Code S Ro32 and 0-2 in their first Code A match to fall straight to Code B, walks away with equal amounts of points as the players who won every single Code A match that season.
Consistency, eh? That makes me laugh.
Youre misreading the point systems A player who wins a GSL gets 1.5k points. He'd also have to win the seasons finals = 3k points and then he's pretty much locked in for grand finals
Also whoever qualifies for Code S from Code A will automatically get at least the Ro32 points too... The point system is not that bad Its the money and the allocation of seeds which is the problem.
I see your point. The Code S money should be a bit higher as it would make more sense. Something to consider though is that the Code A money is significantly larger for Korea than it is for NA/EU. So much so that the 41-64th place Korean Code A player gets more money than the 1st place NA/EU player. That's pretty nice. I do think that they need a bit more money in Code S to be more realistic, however it's not realistic to give that money away right now most likely.
Also, if you really think about it, this format is going to keep Korea in a very sustainable position, allowing a very viable professional scene to florish so long as the scene and the teams are well supported. The format is also going to allow for top NA/EU players to actually play SC2 seriously and professionally. An American isn't going to have to be in EG in order to quit their job and play only SC2 (although they will need a team to support them, they don't have to be filthy rich).
It really seems like this format is going to allow NA and EU to play catch up, while not hurting Korea's financial stability.
Sure it sucks to not get filthy rich off of 1 tournament, but eSports isn't about getting filthy rich off of 1 tournament. This is aiming for a more globalized setting for eSports and SC2.
Another look at the points system makes me believe it's still not too bad. It's going to reward those NA/EU players who devoted themselves to their new found profession over the last year, and not someone who simply had a good tournament. At the same time, Koreans are still going to get more money than them because they are going to take the top places, because they are the best in the world.
Eventually though, because this system is supporting the growth of NA and EU, the level of gameplay we see in the global finals will improve.
I feel you're going to be angry whenever anyone who's not a Korean is playing because they aren't as good as Koreans, but that's not what anyone else is worried about here. The issue at hand is the growth of eSports and SC2.
I like watching EU/NA games. Ive been following the EU qualifiers for the past two days passively because guys like Sterlok and Bunny have produced some entertaining games. However, I am going to be angry if I see a far more inferior player make it to the season finals over one of the 10s of better Korean betters that could have taken his place.
Blizzard, I feel, has stunted the growth of Korean E-sports for NA/EU to basically catch up. The problem is....Korea has still A LOT of work to do in terms of esports growth. HoTS + Kespa players switching over did pull a few people in but not enough..or relevant enough to gain that full bw crowd into the SPL/GSTL stands. Not a lot of people care about sc2 in Korea than people think, staying away because its not "original" and "easy"..at least speaking to my relatives/cousins etc.
Another point to make is that..I was excited at the prospect of OSL/GSL because of the fact that it brings back the duo tournaments (and I'm speaking as also a bw fan here) when it was OSL/MSL running at the same time. The GSL becoming the new MSL. But nope, they took that away. On top of that...they combined the two and made the winner of the combined "OSL/GSL" tournament..which should be prestrigious as EVER, some entry ticket to some season finale...while throw a bit of money at the winner and giving a paper that says "Good Job".
lol. They didn't stunt anything. They're taking menu away from people who made too much for their own good anyways. They aren't stopping anyone's careers from developing like you're trying to ensinuate. Your relatives I bet get stomped on the ladder and complain that it's too easy. Korea is stuck on BW because of stubbornness, and just need time for that generation of people to pass for more fans to come in. Any grumpy old man will stand by their beliefs even when told by everyone that they're wrong, so the growth of SC2 in Korea isn't being hindered by this at all. Teams and money are still stable in Korea, and the biggest way to improve eSports and make SC2 more popular in Korea is to make it self sustainable and progressive, rather than giving 1 person a lot of money and making everyone else's financial status a joke.
As for OSL/MSL, they got OGN on board the GSL, making the tournament a lot more widespread. Stop being so selfish and just realize that this is an awesome thing to happen!! In fact, they might even add an OSL later on after this has so much success come its way!
The system is good, the players are good, the money is good (I do hope that the lower ends get a bit more money in the near future). This is a great thing that's happening. Korea is even making significantly more money than NA/EU (being that its going to the people who make the least money, I do consider it very significant even though its not thousands upon thousands of dollars). Hold your horses and watch this good thing bloom into a great thing. Blizzard still has a lot to learn, but they are putting a great machine to work here.
Wow...what an ignorant post. "Your relatives I bet get stomped on the ladder and complain that its too easy"? How stupid of a comment can you make? That's the general perception of the game in korea and if you dont believe it, fly over there and determine that yourself. It's not because of stubbornness at all. BW is the harder game to play. It's plain and simple. Stupid AI + limitations and having no UI at all does that. This is fact. That doesnt mean SC2 is easy, but simply BW is harder. My relatives and friends telling me their perception doesnt mean "they get stomped on ladder and QQing", it gives insight to what the game is thought of in Korea.
The growth of SC2 IS hindered. Less competition. Winning GSL/OSL means nothing now because all that means is that you get a ticket to blizzcon/season finale... A Season finale where it's not even held in Korea 2/3 of the time. No prestige. SPL teams are fine. They always have been outside of a select few. Woongjin Stars still worries me in terms of finance but if you think the SC2 scene in Korea is stable? Youre delusional. Theres multiple teams hanging on by a thread. When's the last time..a new sponsor from Korea came along and invested in a new team? There isnt. Azubu is the closest. They arent a korean company Lol...
How the fuck am I being selfish? Lmfao...
The system, the premise of it, is good, but its setup terribly. The players ARE good, I agree. The money may be good for the NA/EU scene, for korea, its significantly regressed. Oh sure. the SPL guys make a lot of money. Flash makes like what? 200k per year? JD probably makes like 100k. But now there's significantly less individual tournaments which means..the net that players would receive...especially those who arent even on salaries/contracts..are paid..Nothing. Nada. 0. Blizzard is trying to make the scene better, I acknowledge that but they didnt have to hinder Korea's growth as a stepping stone for the growth of other nations.
They didnt have to take away the GSL but they did. They didnt have to take away the OSL but they did. They combined them called them the WCS. The legacy and the significance of placing 1st in "GSL/OSL" which is now called "WCS: korea" is gone. All they had to do was give KR a few extra seeds, keep the prize pool releatively the same as it was, still call it the GSL/OSL. But no, they decided to rebrandish it and retool what was working.
On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote: This move however is NOT good for KR It's an insult. It's a slap in the face. Blizzard is belitting the players. Growth is hindered.
I dont see how pumping 1.6kk in a esport is a slap in the face, an insult, or seen as belitting players.. The korean players are the ones that will benefit most from that 1.6kk anyway... I do not see growth hindered at all.
Only thing that has changed for koreanplayers is that topkoreanplayers get more international exposure which is good for the sponsors, the players and the teams and therefore also the new young talented players... As i see it WCS is a blessing for the korean scene.
On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote: As I re-iterate. This move IS good for the overalll scene. NA + EU will benefit off of this 100% I almost guarantee it.
This move however is NOT good for KR It's an insult. It's a slap in the face. Blizzard is belitting the players. Growth is hindered.
Can you please tell your arguments behind that claim? I posted numbers above that tell a different story. If they are wrong, please tell my why.
On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote: This move however is NOT good for KR It's an insult. It's a slap in the face. Blizzard is belitting the players. Growth is hindered.
I dont see how pumping 1.6kk in a esport is a slap in the face, an insult, or seen as belitting players.. The korean players are the ones that will benefit most from that 1.6kk anyway... I do not see growth hindered at all.
Only thing that has changed for koreanplayers is that topkoreanplayers get more international exposure which is good for the sponsors, the players and the teams... As i see it WCS is a blessing for the korean scene.
Ok..so then.. Why are the likes of.. The entire MVP team Leenock Choya Startale_Zero Nestea Firebat hero Woongjin Stars coach complaining about it??
Because they felt freakin insulted thats why. And everything is taken away from them. They're belitting the players. Not all the players. Just the KR ones. They want the NA scene = EU scene = KR scene. To get that. theyre forcing a move that lowers the KR scene to stoop to NA/EU's level The korean players are not benefitting from this system at all.
On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote: This move however is NOT good for KR It's an insult. It's a slap in the face. Blizzard is belitting the players. Growth is hindered.
I dont see how pumping 1.6kk in a esport is a slap in the face, an insult, or seen as belitting players.. The korean players are the ones that will benefit most from that 1.6kk anyway... I do not see growth hindered at all.
Only thing that has changed for koreanplayers is that topkoreanplayers get more international exposure which is good for the sponsors, the players and the teams... As i see it WCS is a blessing for the korean scene.
Ok..so then.. Why are the likes of.. The entire MVP team Leenock Choya Startale_Zero Nestea Firebat hero Woongjin Stars coach complaining about it??
Because they felt freakin insulted thats why. And everything is taken away from them. They're belitting the players. Not all the players. Just the KR ones. They want the NA scene = EU scene = KR scene. To get that. theyre forcing a move that lowers the KR scene to stoop to NA/EU's level The korean players are not benefitting from this system at all.
There is not a single argument here. People are complaining about things all day, whether they are on a KR SC2 pro team or not. Why do they feel insulted? What is taken away from them? Blizzard does nothing to "lower" the KR scene. Please at least read what I wrote above. This is - for the moment - just echoing emotional, non rational complaints.
I think problem for the Koreans is that big names have to choose between playing in the hardest/most prestigious tournament or playing somewhere else to get easy money. Big names includes both Koreans and foreigners and attract subscribers.
So the move is not that good for Korea, but for the foreign scene it is.
On April 17 2013 22:30 LighT. wrote: People believe I have rather a pessimistic perspective because I'm stating that its bad for Korea scene.
Well why not take a look at the tweets? I feel like I'm just voicing out the players perspective on their behalf.
People whining in the internet is not really evidence of much, regardless of what group is whining. I can see the players being upset about less prize money for their league, but the season finals offers even more winnings for the top 5 players for each region. A player could come in second in both Korea and the season finals and make as much as the second place of GSL last season. The winner of the entire season makes over 20K extra.
On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote: As I re-iterate. This move IS good for the overalll scene. NA + EU will benefit off of this 100% I almost guarantee it.
This move however is NOT good for KR It's an insult. It's a slap in the face. Blizzard is belitting the players. Growth is hindered.
Can you please tell your arguments behind that claim? I posted numbers above that tell a different story. If they are wrong, please tell my why.
Let's quote some people
.@FXOChoya "What's with this prize pool?? My eyes must be messed up."
@FXOChoya "Are Korean players and teams not important at all? Who is this league for and why have they made these changes? Do they not..." .@FXOChoya "...care about the opinions of us players?"
@MKPS2 "They're really making us give up..."
.@LGIM_NesTea_ "@MKPS2 They only slightly lowered the 2nd place prize...good news right..? haha"
@FXOLeenock "What is this...$20k for first place? -_- Why are they changing the prize pool when we're already in the ro32 hahaha"
@FXOsupreme "How do they devastate us with every update they make???"
@StarTale815 "There is no way. These guys have sponsors, so why are they lowering their prize pool? I thought that they would announce..." @StarTale815 "...a counter-announcement. I was a fool and I am angry."]
@NsHsJjakji "What is this..."
.@SC2MVP "Where are we going with this...it's only my opinion, but if they raised the prize pool, they could include that in the...".@SC2MVP "individual leagues, and put a team league in the WCS..."
@Startale_Yun "You're taking this joke way too far."
.@firebathero "@Engine141 Though they open their mouths, their ears are shut."
These quotes come from Coaches. Players. Players who are GSL champions. Casters alike. Do you honestly believe that this is in any shape or form a good thing? I get optimism but what blizzard is doing is retarded.
Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000
So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue.
Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us."
Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here?
and compare the prize of the code A, and the number of tournaments.
and I still don't understand, what mangosix's money does? where goes its sponsorship?
On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote: As I re-iterate. This move IS good for the overalll scene. NA + EU will benefit off of this 100% I almost guarantee it.
This move however is NOT good for KR It's an insult. It's a slap in the face. Blizzard is belitting the players. Growth is hindered.
Can you please tell your arguments behind that claim? I posted numbers above that tell a different story. If they are wrong, please tell my why.
@FXOChoya "Are Korean players and teams not important at all? Who is this league for and why have they made these changes? Do they not..." .@FXOChoya "...care about the opinions of us players?"
@StarTale815 "There is no way. These guys have sponsors, so why are they lowering their prize pool? I thought that they would announce..." @StarTale815 "...a counter-announcement. I was a fool and I am angry."]
.@SC2MVP "Where are we going with this...it's only my opinion, but if they raised the prize pool, they could include that in the...".@SC2MVP "individual leagues, and put a team league in the WCS..."
.@firebathero "@Engine141 Though they open their mouths, their ears are shut."
These quotes come from Coaches. Players. Players who are GSL champions. Casters alike. Do you honestly believe that this is in any shape or form a good thing? I get optimism but what blizzard is doing is retarded.
Ok, last try. Is there any argument behind these complaints? When I read all this this morning I was puzzled, because I remembered things being different. So I took some time and looked up, what changed in the price pools. I came to the conclusion, it did not change for worse for KR players. We had some discussions over the day and I added some more research and numbers. Still the conclusion stands, nothing changed for worse. I am not bashing on KR players, but I don't see any reason, but complaining just because things change w/o checking if for better or worse.
Neither them nor you brought any argument. And no, "they are the awesome KR pros" is not an argument in my book.
On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote: As I re-iterate. This move IS good for the overalll scene. NA + EU will benefit off of this 100% I almost guarantee it.
This move however is NOT good for KR It's an insult. It's a slap in the face. Blizzard is belitting the players. Growth is hindered.
Can you please tell your arguments behind that claim? I posted numbers above that tell a different story. If they are wrong, please tell my why.
@FXOChoya "Are Korean players and teams not important at all? Who is this league for and why have they made these changes? Do they not..." .@FXOChoya "...care about the opinions of us players?"
@StarTale815 "There is no way. These guys have sponsors, so why are they lowering their prize pool? I thought that they would announce..." @StarTale815 "...a counter-announcement. I was a fool and I am angry."]
.@SC2MVP "Where are we going with this...it's only my opinion, but if they raised the prize pool, they could include that in the...".@SC2MVP "individual leagues, and put a team league in the WCS..."
.@firebathero "@Engine141 Though they open their mouths, their ears are shut."
These quotes come from Coaches. Players. Players who are GSL champions. Casters alike. Do you honestly believe that this is in any shape or form a good thing? I get optimism but what blizzard is doing is retarded.
It is a bad idea to listen to people whine in the internet and taking it as fact or a basis of how good or bad something is. I am sure they aren't adding in the extra $5,000 they get if they somehow come in 18th in the world finals(which is unlikely, since they won Korea). Even if they take second place for the season, it is still 40K. Or 60K if they take the finals for both.
And the world wide exposure for the seasons will be huge for the teams. Prize money is not the center of the world and people tweeting their first impressions does not prove anything.
On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote: This move however is NOT good for KR It's an insult. It's a slap in the face. Blizzard is belitting the players. Growth is hindered.
I dont see how pumping 1.6kk in a esport is a slap in the face, an insult, or seen as belitting players.. The korean players are the ones that will benefit most from that 1.6kk anyway... I do not see growth hindered at all.
Only thing that has changed for koreanplayers is that topkoreanplayers get more international exposure which is good for the sponsors, the players and the teams... As i see it WCS is a blessing for the korean scene.
Ok..so then.. Why are the likes of.. The entire MVP team Leenock Choya Startale_Zero Nestea Firebat hero Woongjin Stars coach complaining about it??
Because they felt freakin insulted thats why. And everything is taken away from them. They're belitting the players. Not all the players. Just the KR ones. They want the NA scene = EU scene = KR scene. To get that. theyre forcing a move that lowers the KR scene to stoop to NA/EU's level The korean players are not benefitting from this system at all.
Yes, they can complain about everything they dont like. But, they are not businessmen. If u want to grow a scene and the level of play u simply need money, money from sponsors, i.e :
Giving redbull international exposure (life/startale), will increase funds for startale, which they can use to develop the kr scene further.. International exposure on events like this is worth alot more then KR exposure only.
2nd, the proplayers of korea will benefit the most from the 1.6kk prizepool.
So in general :
1. Teams benefit as they get more funds thx to sponsorships; 2. KR proplayers benefit because they will get more prizemoney and higher salaries when they post results internationally. Because they are worth more in sponsorexposure; 3. GOM has secured there future for being the biggest 1v1 tournament in korea in the sc2 scene.
The same counts for the NA/EU scene, players, teams and leagues.
@FXOChoya "Winning isn't easy. Are they handing out that kind of prize pool because they think one can win the Global finals if he wins.....the Korea finals too? hahahahahahaha" "In my opinion, it seems they are trying to expand the scene but it seems they are doing the opposite. Are they telling....hundreds and hundreds of gamers to win? Every single one of them?" "They seem to be trying to equalize Korea with everywhere else hahahahaha You think NA and EU are the same as KR? I'm all for..."...equality but this is just ridiculous and I cannot comprehend these changes." "I kept trusting that they would persuade us players by raising the prize pool but we wake up to this news? I can't even." "I don't know if my team is the only one being affected but this is just too much. Every announcement is disappointing." "So we have to go through qualifiers and barely get to the Premier League, but now there's another tourney above that we "...to win to be considered a winner? I can't even."
@FXOChoya "@StarTale815 hahahahaha I wake up to everyone freaking out, if this continues they must just delete SC2 ahahahahahaha"
"WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either...""have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us."
There you have it. While my argument seems pessimistic to most, most of the players feel the same way as I do. I have an exam to write in 2 hours and then another tomorrow so I wont be able to respond but I'll be sure to.
@FXOChoya "Winning isn't easy. Are they handing out that kind of prize pool because they think one can win the Global finals if he wins.....the Korea finals too? hahahahahahaha" "In my opinion, it seems they are trying to expand the scene but it seems they are doing the opposite. Are they telling....hundreds and hundreds of gamers to win? Every single one of them?" "They seem to be trying to equalize Korea with everywhere else hahahahaha You think NA and EU are the same as KR? I'm all for..."...equality but this is just ridiculous and I cannot comprehend these changes." "I kept trusting that they would persuade us players by raising the prize pool but we wake up to this news? I can't even." "I don't know if my team is the only one being affected but this is just too much. Every announcement is disappointing." "So we have to go through qualifiers and barely get to the Premier League, but now there's another tourney above that we "...to win to be considered a winner? I can't even."
"WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either...""have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us."
There you have it. While my argument seems pessimistic to most, most of the players feel the same way as I do. I have an exam to write in 2 hours and then another tomorrow so I wont be able to respond but I'll be sure to.
I give up. Either this is a language barrier or... (EDIT: removed personal attack).
@FXOChoya "Winning isn't easy. Are they handing out that kind of prize pool because they think one can win the Global finals if he wins.....the Korea finals too? hahahahahahaha" "In my opinion, it seems they are trying to expand the scene but it seems they are doing the opposite. Are they telling....hundreds and hundreds of gamers to win? Every single one of them?" "They seem to be trying to equalize Korea with everywhere else hahahahaha You think NA and EU are the same as KR? I'm all for..."...equality but this is just ridiculous and I cannot comprehend these changes." "I kept trusting that they would persuade us players by raising the prize pool but we wake up to this news? I can't even." "I don't know if my team is the only one being affected but this is just too much. Every announcement is disappointing." "So we have to go through qualifiers and barely get to the Premier League, but now there's another tourney above that we "...to win to be considered a winner? I can't even."
"WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either...""have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us."
There you have it. While my argument seems pessimistic to most, most of the players feel the same way as I do. I have an exam to write in 2 hours and then another tomorrow so I wont be able to respond but I'll be sure to.
You have posted the opinion of a single coach like three times and some other players. That is not most of the professional players in Korea. Also, Choya is one of the youngest coaches I am aware of, which makes me question how much he is thinking this all through before freaking out on twitter. I am not doubting abilities, but I don't know how much experience he has with the business end of the team or is aware how world wide exposure helps the team.
On April 17 2013 22:39 LighT. wrote: These quotes come from Coaches. Players. Players who are GSL champions. Casters alike. Do you honestly believe that this is in any shape or form a good thing? I get optimism but what blizzard is doing is retarded.
Yes what Blizzard does is a good thing, how about you look at the overall picture. Sc2 in korea was falling and looking really really bad, fewer GSL every single year since the start, with less price money each year. OGN cutting the television time for official matches from kespa sc2 teams in half, by showing only 2 days on TV instead of 4.
Who tells you that maybe GOM was not about to fall as well, and Blizzard came in, supported them with prize money help, support, new studio etc. I'm kind of upset about all these negative comments everywhere, What do you think would happen if Blizzard would not have pumped all this years value of money into sc2 at all, be it the foreign scene or KR. (gom still gets money from blizzard if I am not mistaken to support gsl to keep running as a sponsor)
And now imagine Blizzard not doing any of this. That would be insanely scary from my point of view. /edit - especially for the korean scene
What is the chance that you will make it to WCS Season Finals all year long (3/3) if you play in Korea? Compare your answer with: What is the chance that you will make it to WCS Season Finals all year long (3/3) if you play in NA?
On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote: As I re-iterate. This move IS good for the overalll scene. NA + EU will benefit off of this 100% I almost guarantee it.
This move however is NOT good for KR It's an insult. It's a slap in the face. Blizzard is belitting the players. Growth is hindered.
Can you please tell your arguments behind that claim? I posted numbers above that tell a different story. If they are wrong, please tell my why.
Let's quote some people
.@FXOChoya "What's with this prize pool?? My eyes must be messed up."
@FXOChoya "Are Korean players and teams not important at all? Who is this league for and why have they made these changes? Do they not..." .@FXOChoya "...care about the opinions of us players?"
@MKPS2 "They're really making us give up..."
.@LGIM_NesTea_ "@MKPS2 They only slightly lowered the 2nd place prize...good news right..? haha"
@FXOLeenock "What is this...$20k for first place? -_- Why are they changing the prize pool when we're already in the ro32 hahaha"
@FXOsupreme "How do they devastate us with every update they make???"
@StarTale815 "There is no way. These guys have sponsors, so why are they lowering their prize pool? I thought that they would announce..." @StarTale815 "...a counter-announcement. I was a fool and I am angry."]
@NsHsJjakji "What is this..."
.@SC2MVP "Where are we going with this...it's only my opinion, but if they raised the prize pool, they could include that in the...".@SC2MVP "individual leagues, and put a team league in the WCS..."
@Startale_Yun "You're taking this joke way too far."
.@firebathero "@Engine141 Though they open their mouths, their ears are shut."
These quotes come from Coaches. Players. Players who are GSL champions. Casters alike. Do you honestly believe that this is in any shape or form a good thing? I get optimism but what blizzard is doing is retarded.
Ok, last try. Is there any argument behind these complaints? When I read all this this morning I was puzzled, because I remembered things being different. So I took some time and looked up, what changed in the price pools. I came to the conclusion, it did not change for worse for KR players. We had some discussions over the day and I added some more research and numbers. Still the conclusion stands, nothing changed for worse. I am not bashing on KR players, but I don't see any reason, but complaining just because things change w/o checking if for better or worse.
Neither them nor you brought any argument. And no, "they are the awesome KR pros" is not an argument in my book.
Last response before studying. Wish me luck
The argument is simple. Blizzard wants to make EU = NA = KR, for that they want EU and NA growth to happen. They placed a system that does just that. However while placing the system in place by taking away the prestigious title of GSL and OSL and having it only become a feeder for a "Blizzard's hosted tournament", and regulating the # of seeds koreans have to the same of EU/NA players..when the KR sccene is obviously 3-4x more competitive. It's an insult to them as a whole.
The 1st place argument is also simple. So they took away the GSL /OSL prestige of a GSL/OSL winner and the pride of being a runner up. Fine. But what they do get in return? A lower prize pool above that and some "points". In reverse: What do the players get out of it? How does this system benefit Korea? It doesnt. Outside of a few extra games casted on OGN but they couldhave been handled differently since blizzard just enticed them with the power of $.
The stability as I say again in the KR scene is not stable. There are teams which are on the brink of disbanding. EVen a team like WJS are in the threat of being relegated due to financial trouble. There is no growth.
In EU/NA you have additional sponsors. Na'Vi joined in. Western Wolves formed, TB's Axiom. Azubu. Investment from the global companies.
In KR there hasnt been a major additional sponsor for months. In BW at the times of rapid growth. You had Hwaseung, Hite, MBCGameHero There's none of that. Because they do not believe sc2 is a game worth investing. How would this change their perspective?
Yes, I understand that lower placed players get more $ and that's good. But they took away the prestige and the title, and they dare think the competition in EU or NA is equal to KR? They're forcing their hand for players to move out to different regions but in most cases they cant because of GSTL/SPL obligations.
If they wanted to do a WCS format like that. They should have done a team format. It works better. More exposure. Not like this. This is terrible.
On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote: As I re-iterate. This move IS good for the overalll scene. NA + EU will benefit off of this 100% I almost guarantee it.
This move however is NOT good for KR It's an insult. It's a slap in the face. Blizzard is belitting the players. Growth is hindered.
Can you please tell your arguments behind that claim? I posted numbers above that tell a different story. If they are wrong, please tell my why.
Let's quote some people
.@FXOChoya "What's with this prize pool?? My eyes must be messed up."
@FXOChoya "Are Korean players and teams not important at all? Who is this league for and why have they made these changes? Do they not..." .@FXOChoya "...care about the opinions of us players?"
@MKPS2 "They're really making us give up..."
.@LGIM_NesTea_ "@MKPS2 They only slightly lowered the 2nd place prize...good news right..? haha"
@FXOLeenock "What is this...$20k for first place? -_- Why are they changing the prize pool when we're already in the ro32 hahaha"
@FXOsupreme "How do they devastate us with every update they make???"
@StarTale815 "There is no way. These guys have sponsors, so why are they lowering their prize pool? I thought that they would announce..." @StarTale815 "...a counter-announcement. I was a fool and I am angry."]
@NsHsJjakji "What is this..."
.@SC2MVP "Where are we going with this...it's only my opinion, but if they raised the prize pool, they could include that in the...".@SC2MVP "individual leagues, and put a team league in the WCS..."
@Startale_Yun "You're taking this joke way too far."
.@firebathero "@Engine141 Though they open their mouths, their ears are shut."
These quotes come from Coaches. Players. Players who are GSL champions. Casters alike. Do you honestly believe that this is in any shape or form a good thing? I get optimism but what blizzard is doing is retarded.
Ok, last try. Is there any argument behind these complaints? When I read all this this morning I was puzzled, because I remembered things being different. So I took some time and looked up, what changed in the price pools. I came to the conclusion, it did not change for worse for KR players. We had some discussions over the day and I added some more research and numbers. Still the conclusion stands, nothing changed for worse. I am not bashing on KR players, but I don't see any reason, but complaining just because things change w/o checking if for better or worse.
Neither them nor you brought any argument. And no, "they are the awesome KR pros" is not an argument in my book.
That leave me with an additional thought.for everyone.. Why do they have to do this for individual leagues? Why not for a team league sort of thing? If they wanted to pump in money they could have just started a North American Team League European Champions League and made a ridiculous prize pool. This would promote growth. The seedings..equal seedings would mean jackshit because it's a team league after all. Global exposure.
On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote: As I re-iterate. This move IS good for the overalll scene. NA + EU will benefit off of this 100% I almost guarantee it.
This move however is NOT good for KR It's an insult. It's a slap in the face. Blizzard is belitting the players. Growth is hindered.
Can you please tell your arguments behind that claim? I posted numbers above that tell a different story. If they are wrong, please tell my why.
Let's quote some people
.@FXOChoya "What's with this prize pool?? My eyes must be messed up."
@FXOChoya "Are Korean players and teams not important at all? Who is this league for and why have they made these changes? Do they not..." .@FXOChoya "...care about the opinions of us players?"
@MKPS2 "They're really making us give up..."
.@LGIM_NesTea_ "@MKPS2 They only slightly lowered the 2nd place prize...good news right..? haha"
@FXOLeenock "What is this...$20k for first place? -_- Why are they changing the prize pool when we're already in the ro32 hahaha"
@FXOsupreme "How do they devastate us with every update they make???"
@StarTale815 "There is no way. These guys have sponsors, so why are they lowering their prize pool? I thought that they would announce..." @StarTale815 "...a counter-announcement. I was a fool and I am angry."]
@NsHsJjakji "What is this..."
.@SC2MVP "Where are we going with this...it's only my opinion, but if they raised the prize pool, they could include that in the...".@SC2MVP "individual leagues, and put a team league in the WCS..."
@Startale_Yun "You're taking this joke way too far."
.@firebathero "@Engine141 Though they open their mouths, their ears are shut."
These quotes come from Coaches. Players. Players who are GSL champions. Casters alike. Do you honestly believe that this is in any shape or form a good thing? I get optimism but what blizzard is doing is retarded.
Ok, last try. Is there any argument behind these complaints? When I read all this this morning I was puzzled, because I remembered things being different. So I took some time and looked up, what changed in the price pools. I came to the conclusion, it did not change for worse for KR players. We had some discussions over the day and I added some more research and numbers. Still the conclusion stands, nothing changed for worse. I am not bashing on KR players, but I don't see any reason, but complaining just because things change w/o checking if for better or worse.
Neither them nor you brought any argument. And no, "they are the awesome KR pros" is not an argument in my book.
Last response before studying. Wish me luck
The argument is simple. Blizzard wants to make EU = NA = KR, for that they want EU and NA growth to happen. They placed a system that does just that. However while placing the system in place by taking away the prestigious title of GSL and OSL and having it only become a feeder for a "Blizzard's hosted tournament", and regulating the # of seeds koreans have to the same of EU/NA players..when the KR sccene is obviously 3-4x more competitive. It's an insult to them as a whole.
The 1st place argument is also simple. So they took away the GSL /OSL prestige of a GSL/OSL winner and the pride of being a runner up. Fine. But what they do get in return? A lower prize pool above that and some "points". In reverse: What do the players get out of it? How does this system benefit Korea? It doesnt. Outside of a few extra games casted on OGN but they couldhave been handled differently since blizzard just enticed them with the power of $.
The stability as I say again in the KR scene is not stable. There are teams which are on the brink of disbanding. EVen a team like WJS are in the threat of being relegated due to financial trouble. There is no growth.
In EU/NA you have additional sponsors. Na'Vi joined in. Western Wolves formed, TB's Axiom. Azubu. Investment from the global companies.
In KR there hasnt been a major additional sponsor for months. In BW at the times of rapid growth. You had Hwaseung, Hite, MBCGameHero There's none of that. Because they do not believe sc2 is a game worth investing. How would this change their perspective?
Yes, I understand that lower placed players get more $ and that's good. But they took away the prestige and the title, and they dare think the competition in EU or NA is equal to KR? They're forcing their hand for players to move out to different regions but in most cases they cant because of GSTL/SPL obligations.
If they wanted to do a WCS format like that. They should have done a team format. It works better. More exposure. Not like this. This is terrible.
If the system started out providing more slots for Koreans because their scene was more competitive, when are those slots taken away? How do does Blizzard know when the other scenes have "caught up"? When they take those extra slots away, will the Korean teams just freak out then an say the Blizzard is disrespecting them and ruining Korean SC2 for the sake of the NA and EU scene?
Making a system that provided Korea with extra placements slots or more prize money would just lead to this same discussion happening later. Once Blizzard opens that door, its hard to close. So Blizzard should just make everything equal and let the players figure it out on their own.
On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote: As I re-iterate. This move IS good for the overalll scene. NA + EU will benefit off of this 100% I almost guarantee it.
This move however is NOT good for KR It's an insult. It's a slap in the face. Blizzard is belitting the players. Growth is hindered.
Can you please tell your arguments behind that claim? I posted numbers above that tell a different story. If they are wrong, please tell my why.
Let's quote some people
.@FXOChoya "What's with this prize pool?? My eyes must be messed up."
@FXOChoya "Are Korean players and teams not important at all? Who is this league for and why have they made these changes? Do they not..." .@FXOChoya "...care about the opinions of us players?"
@MKPS2 "They're really making us give up..."
.@LGIM_NesTea_ "@MKPS2 They only slightly lowered the 2nd place prize...good news right..? haha"
@FXOLeenock "What is this...$20k for first place? -_- Why are they changing the prize pool when we're already in the ro32 hahaha"
@FXOsupreme "How do they devastate us with every update they make???"
@StarTale815 "There is no way. These guys have sponsors, so why are they lowering their prize pool? I thought that they would announce..." @StarTale815 "...a counter-announcement. I was a fool and I am angry."]
@NsHsJjakji "What is this..."
.@SC2MVP "Where are we going with this...it's only my opinion, but if they raised the prize pool, they could include that in the...".@SC2MVP "individual leagues, and put a team league in the WCS..."
@Startale_Yun "You're taking this joke way too far."
.@firebathero "@Engine141 Though they open their mouths, their ears are shut."
These quotes come from Coaches. Players. Players who are GSL champions. Casters alike. Do you honestly believe that this is in any shape or form a good thing? I get optimism but what blizzard is doing is retarded.
Ok, last try. Is there any argument behind these complaints? When I read all this this morning I was puzzled, because I remembered things being different. So I took some time and looked up, what changed in the price pools. I came to the conclusion, it did not change for worse for KR players. We had some discussions over the day and I added some more research and numbers. Still the conclusion stands, nothing changed for worse. I am not bashing on KR players, but I don't see any reason, but complaining just because things change w/o checking if for better or worse.
Neither them nor you brought any argument. And no, "they are the awesome KR pros" is not an argument in my book.
Last response before studying. Wish me luck
The argument is simple. Blizzard wants to make EU = NA = KR, for that they want EU and NA growth to happen. They placed a system that does just that. However while placing the system in place by taking away the prestigious title of GSL and OSL and having it only become a feeder for a "Blizzard's hosted tournament", and regulating the # of seeds koreans have to the same of EU/NA players..when the KR sccene is obviously 3-4x more competitive. It's an insult to them as a whole.
The 1st place argument is also simple. So they took away the GSL /OSL prestige of a GSL/OSL winner and the pride of being a runner up. Fine. But what they do get in return? A lower prize pool above that and some "points". In reverse: What do the players get out of it? How does this system benefit Korea? It doesnt. Outside of a few extra games casted on OGN but they couldhave been handled differently since blizzard just enticed them with the power of $.
The stability as I say again in the KR scene is not stable. There are teams which are on the brink of disbanding. EVen a team like WJS are in the threat of being relegated due to financial trouble. There is no growth.
In EU/NA you have additional sponsors. Na'Vi joined in. Western Wolves formed, TB's Axiom. Azubu. Investment from the global companies.
In KR there hasnt been a major additional sponsor for months. In BW at the times of rapid growth. You had Hwaseung, Hite, MBCGameHero There's none of that. Because they do not believe sc2 is a game worth investing. How would this change their perspective?
Yes, I understand that lower placed players get more $ and that's good. But they took away the prestige and the title, and they dare think the competition in EU or NA is equal to KR? They're forcing their hand for players to move out to different regions but in most cases they cant because of GSTL/SPL obligations.
If they wanted to do a WCS format like that. They should have done a team format. It works better. More exposure. Not like this. This is terrible.
So i gather that the problem seems to be that EU and NA scenes got a boost while KR stayed about the same (based on calculations few pages back). I don't really see how this is supposed to be a bad thing when nothing is taken away from anyone.
On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote: As I re-iterate. This move IS good for the overalll scene. NA + EU will benefit off of this 100% I almost guarantee it.
This move however is NOT good for KR It's an insult. It's a slap in the face. Blizzard is belitting the players. Growth is hindered.
Can you please tell your arguments behind that claim? I posted numbers above that tell a different story. If they are wrong, please tell my why.
Let's quote some people
.@FXOChoya "What's with this prize pool?? My eyes must be messed up."
@FXOChoya "Are Korean players and teams not important at all? Who is this league for and why have they made these changes? Do they not..." .@FXOChoya "...care about the opinions of us players?"
@MKPS2 "They're really making us give up..."
.@LGIM_NesTea_ "@MKPS2 They only slightly lowered the 2nd place prize...good news right..? haha"
@FXOLeenock "What is this...$20k for first place? -_- Why are they changing the prize pool when we're already in the ro32 hahaha"
@FXOsupreme "How do they devastate us with every update they make???"
@StarTale815 "There is no way. These guys have sponsors, so why are they lowering their prize pool? I thought that they would announce..." @StarTale815 "...a counter-announcement. I was a fool and I am angry."]
@NsHsJjakji "What is this..."
.@SC2MVP "Where are we going with this...it's only my opinion, but if they raised the prize pool, they could include that in the...".@SC2MVP "individual leagues, and put a team league in the WCS..."
@Startale_Yun "You're taking this joke way too far."
.@firebathero "@Engine141 Though they open their mouths, their ears are shut."
These quotes come from Coaches. Players. Players who are GSL champions. Casters alike. Do you honestly believe that this is in any shape or form a good thing? I get optimism but what blizzard is doing is retarded.
Ok, last try. Is there any argument behind these complaints? When I read all this this morning I was puzzled, because I remembered things being different. So I took some time and looked up, what changed in the price pools. I came to the conclusion, it did not change for worse for KR players. We had some discussions over the day and I added some more research and numbers. Still the conclusion stands, nothing changed for worse. I am not bashing on KR players, but I don't see any reason, but complaining just because things change w/o checking if for better or worse.
Neither them nor you brought any argument. And no, "they are the awesome KR pros" is not an argument in my book.
Last response before studying. Wish me luck
The argument is simple. Blizzard wants to make EU = NA = KR, for that they want EU and NA growth to happen. They placed a system that does just that. However while placing the system in place by taking away the prestigious title of GSL and OSL and having it only become a feeder for a "Blizzard's hosted tournament", and regulating the # of seeds koreans have to the same of EU/NA players..when the KR sccene is obviously 3-4x more competitive. It's an insult to them as a whole.
The 1st place argument is also simple. So they took away the GSL /OSL prestige of a GSL/OSL winner and the pride of being a runner up. Fine. But what they do get in return? A lower prize pool above that and some "points". In reverse: What do the players get out of it? How does this system benefit Korea? It doesnt. Outside of a few extra games casted on OGN but they couldhave been handled differently since blizzard just enticed them with the power of $.
The stability as I say again in the KR scene is not stable. There are teams which are on the brink of disbanding. EVen a team like WJS are in the threat of being relegated due to financial trouble. There is no growth.
In EU/NA you have additional sponsors. Na'Vi joined in. Western Wolves formed, TB's Axiom. Azubu. Investment from the global companies.
In KR there hasnt been a major additional sponsor for months. In BW at the times of rapid growth. You had Hwaseung, Hite, MBCGameHero There's none of that. Because they do not believe sc2 is a game worth investing. How would this change their perspective?
Yes, I understand that lower placed players get more $ and that's good. But they took away the prestige and the title, and they dare think the competition in EU or NA is equal to KR? They're forcing their hand for players to move out to different regions but in most cases they cant because of GSTL/SPL obligations.
If they wanted to do a WCS format like that. They should have done a team format. It works better. More exposure. Not like this. This is terrible.
If the system started out providing more slots for Koreans because their scene was more competitive, when are those slots taken away? How do does Blizzard know when the other scenes have "caught up"? When they take those extra slots away, will the Korean teams just freak out then an say the Blizzard is disrespecting them and ruining Korean SC2 for the sake of the NA and EU scene?
Making a system that provided Korea with extra placements slots or more prize money would just lead to this same discussion happening later. Once Blizzard opens that door, its hard to close. So Blizzard should just make everything equal and let the players figure it out on their own.
P.S. Stop posting in haiku. Its kinda weird.
Like in footbal. England gets 3 slots and 1 in qualifiers for Champions League and Cyprus gets 1 in qualifiers. When is Cyprus gonna get more slots is when EU and NA should get more slots for SC2 WCS finals?
On April 17 2013 22:39 LighT. wrote: These quotes come from Coaches. Players. Players who are GSL champions. Casters alike. Do you honestly believe that this is in any shape or form a good thing? I get optimism but what blizzard is doing is retarded.
Yes what Blizzard does is a good thing, how about you look at the overall picture. Sc2 in korea was falling and looking really really bad, fewer GSL every single year since the start, with less price money each year. OGN cutting the television time for official matches from kespa sc2 teams in half, by showing only 2 days on TV instead of 4.
Who tells you that maybe GOM was not about to fall as well, and Blizzard came in, supported them with prize money help, support, new studio etc. I'm kind of upset about all these negative comments everywhere, What do you think would happen if Blizzard would not have pumped all this years value of money into sc2 at all, be it the foreign scene or KR. (gom still gets money from blizzard if I am not mistaken to support gsl to keep running as a sponsor)
And now imagine Blizzard not doing any of this. That would be insanely scary from my point of view. /edit - especially for the korean scene
i totally agree, in a business point there isnt even a reason to pump money in a market where u cant see marketgrowth and potential(sc2 in korea was a fail compared to BW and LoL now ) but there is a huge growth in the foreign esports scene, what blizz is doing (pumpin money in kr scene) is charity in my opinion cauz there wont be any profit or return of investment by doing that
koreans should be happy blizz is pumpin money in kr... osl would be dropping sc2 100%(LoL is big, SC2 0%crowd, no reason to support that game) if blizz wouldnt sponsor them
On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote: As I re-iterate. This move IS good for the overalll scene. NA + EU will benefit off of this 100% I almost guarantee it.
This move however is NOT good for KR It's an insult. It's a slap in the face. Blizzard is belitting the players. Growth is hindered.
Can you please tell your arguments behind that claim? I posted numbers above that tell a different story. If they are wrong, please tell my why.
Let's quote some people
.@FXOChoya "What's with this prize pool?? My eyes must be messed up."
@FXOChoya "Are Korean players and teams not important at all? Who is this league for and why have they made these changes? Do they not..." .@FXOChoya "...care about the opinions of us players?"
@MKPS2 "They're really making us give up..."
.@LGIM_NesTea_ "@MKPS2 They only slightly lowered the 2nd place prize...good news right..? haha"
@FXOLeenock "What is this...$20k for first place? -_- Why are they changing the prize pool when we're already in the ro32 hahaha"
@FXOsupreme "How do they devastate us with every update they make???"
@StarTale815 "There is no way. These guys have sponsors, so why are they lowering their prize pool? I thought that they would announce..." @StarTale815 "...a counter-announcement. I was a fool and I am angry."]
@NsHsJjakji "What is this..."
.@SC2MVP "Where are we going with this...it's only my opinion, but if they raised the prize pool, they could include that in the...".@SC2MVP "individual leagues, and put a team league in the WCS..."
@Startale_Yun "You're taking this joke way too far."
.@firebathero "@Engine141 Though they open their mouths, their ears are shut."
These quotes come from Coaches. Players. Players who are GSL champions. Casters alike. Do you honestly believe that this is in any shape or form a good thing? I get optimism but what blizzard is doing is retarded.
Ok, last try. Is there any argument behind these complaints? When I read all this this morning I was puzzled, because I remembered things being different. So I took some time and looked up, what changed in the price pools. I came to the conclusion, it did not change for worse for KR players. We had some discussions over the day and I added some more research and numbers. Still the conclusion stands, nothing changed for worse. I am not bashing on KR players, but I don't see any reason, but complaining just because things change w/o checking if for better or worse.
Neither them nor you brought any argument. And no, "they are the awesome KR pros" is not an argument in my book.
Last response before studying. Wish me luck
The argument is simple. Blizzard wants to make EU = NA = KR, for that they want EU and NA growth to happen. They placed a system that does just that. However while placing the system in place by taking away the prestigious title of GSL and OSL and having it only become a feeder for a "Blizzard's hosted tournament", and regulating the # of seeds koreans have to the same of EU/NA players..when the KR sccene is obviously 3-4x more competitive. It's an insult to them as a whole.
The 1st place argument is also simple. So they took away the GSL /OSL prestige of a GSL/OSL winner and the pride of being a runner up. Fine. But what they do get in return? A lower prize pool above that and some "points". In reverse: What do the players get out of it? How does this system benefit Korea? It doesnt. Outside of a few extra games casted on OGN but they couldhave been handled differently since blizzard just enticed them with the power of $.
The stability as I say again in the KR scene is not stable. There are teams which are on the brink of disbanding. EVen a team like WJS are in the threat of being relegated due to financial trouble. There is no growth.
In EU/NA you have additional sponsors. Na'Vi joined in. Western Wolves formed, TB's Axiom. Azubu. Investment from the global companies.
In KR there hasnt been a major additional sponsor for months. In BW at the times of rapid growth. You had Hwaseung, Hite, MBCGameHero There's none of that. Because they do not believe sc2 is a game worth investing. How would this change their perspective?
Yes, I understand that lower placed players get more $ and that's good. But they took away the prestige and the title, and they dare think the competition in EU or NA is equal to KR? They're forcing their hand for players to move out to different regions but in most cases they cant because of GSTL/SPL obligations.
If they wanted to do a WCS format like that. They should have done a team format. It works better. More exposure. Not like this. This is terrible.
If the system started out providing more slots for Koreans because their scene was more competitive, when are those slots taken away? How do does Blizzard know when the other scenes have "caught up"? When they take those extra slots away, will the Korean teams just freak out then an say the Blizzard is disrespecting them and ruining Korean SC2 for the sake of the NA and EU scene?
Making a system that provided Korea with extra placements slots or more prize money would just lead to this same discussion happening later. Once Blizzard opens that door, its hard to close. So Blizzard should just make everything equal and let the players figure it out on their own.
P.S. Stop posting in haiku. Its kinda weird.
Like in footbal. England gets 3 slots and 1 in qualifiers for Champions League and Cyprus gets 1 in qualifiers. When is Cyprus gonna get more slots is when EU and NA should get more slots for SC2 WCS finals?
Valid point. Football is way more established(being the most popular sport in the world) and there are a ton of reasons why one region gets more slots. But that does not mean Blizzard needs to go that route. Starting out equal is a good way to start any system and then adjust it from there. Trying to predict every issue generally leads to problems that did not need to be there in the first place. This is all new and we will know more once the first season is over in June.
On April 17 2013 23:24 xuanzue wrote: this year in korea (100k + 25k) x 3 / 9 months = 42 k every month in tournaments.
last year in korean gsl. 161 k x 5 / 12 = 67 k every month. and the number is bigger if you add osl and wcs kr.
so. THERE ARE LESS MONEY THIS YEAR. I don't see how can be this an improvement.
@ GSL, Gom TV already announced before the whole WCS thing that they will have 1 less GSL for the year 2013. So it was always supposed to be only 4 GSL's
Maybe GOM couldnt find sponsors to pay as much money as before, so Blizzard stepped in? Maybe without Blizzard helping ogn, there wouldnt even be an OSL this year, like at all. Why do people never think about that?
On April 17 2013 23:24 xuanzue wrote: this year in korea (100k + 25k) x 3 / 9 months = 42 k every month in tournaments.
last year in korean gsl. 161 k x 5 / 12 = 67 k every month. and the number is bigger if you add osl and wcs kr.
so. THERE ARE LESS MONEY THIS YEAR. I don't see how can be this an improvement.
Did you add in the amount they will automatically get for the season finals? That's a minimum of $25K more per season(all 5 Korean players place in 9th-18th), which is an extra 75K for the year. Or likely more if they place 8th or higher, since it jumps to $7,500 or $10,000 for 3rd-4th. Per season, this adds a lot to the overall totally amount a player can win for getting top 5 in their region.
The only hope now is that the tournament organizers will have other leagues which could be WCS tier 1 competitions and have a solid pricepool in order to increase the money in the scene to similar levels to past years.
For korea, i can only hope that GOM gives more to GSTL or they hold more "arenas" or maybe more billizard cup events etc,
Dreamhack and NASL have a great shot at making themselves relevant. 750 points is a large amount and will be significant. I feel NASL have to change their format as most players will not want to participate in 2 leagues running concurrently.
I think this is not the end of annoucements. It is not the amazing league that will boost the entire scene but a solid 1st step. We will have to see the end state in order to pass judgement on how large a success/failure this WCS will be
On April 17 2013 23:24 xuanzue wrote: this year in korea (100k + 25k) x 3 / 9 months = 42 k every month in tournaments.
last year in korean gsl. 161 k x 5 / 12 = 67 k every month. and the number is bigger if you add osl and wcs kr.
so. THERE ARE LESS MONEY THIS YEAR. I don't see how can be this an improvement.
@ GSL, Gom TV already announced before the whole WCS thing that they will have 1 less GSL for the year 2013. So it was always supposed to be only 4 GSL's
Maybe GOM couldnt find sponsors to pay as much money as before, so Blizzard stepped in? Maybe without Blizzard helping ogn, there wouldnt even be an OSL this year, like at all. Why do people never think about that?
Blizzard has always been sponsoring GOM since day 1. Get your facts straight.
On April 17 2013 23:24 xuanzue wrote: this year in korea (100k + 25k) x 3 / 9 months = 42 k every month in tournaments.
last year in korean gsl. 161 k x 5 / 12 = 67 k every month. and the number is bigger if you add osl and wcs kr.
so. THERE ARE LESS MONEY THIS YEAR. I don't see how can be this an improvement.
Maybe GOM couldnt find sponsors to pay as much money as before, so Blizzard stepped in?
then, why there is an sponsor called mangosix?
I don't know, that studio costs money to rent and run? They have to pay people money to work there?
last year they had those costs too.
They do have a new studio now, in central seoul, so it will propably cost a bit more. Just because they have a title sponsor, does not mean that they pay the exact same amount as a year before that. (If you have trouble finding a sponsor, the first thing you do is reduce the amount of money that you looked for a sponsor to be paid)
Geokiller: Blizzard has always been sponsoring GOM since day 1. Get your facts straight.
Of course they have, but things change man. Who tells you that Blizzard has to pay gom more now for gom to even run, because they get less sponsorships as early on, and sponsors not paying them as much as before.
On April 17 2013 23:24 xuanzue wrote: this year in korea (100k + 25k) x 3 / 9 months = 42 k every month in tournaments.
last year in korean gsl. 161 k x 5 / 12 = 67 k every month. and the number is bigger if you add osl and wcs kr.
so. THERE ARE LESS MONEY THIS YEAR. I don't see how can be this an improvement.
Maybe GOM couldnt find sponsors to pay as much money as before, so Blizzard stepped in?
then, why there is an sponsor called mangosix?
I don't know, that studio costs money to rent and run? They have to pay people money to work there?
last year they had those costs too.
Last year the costs were a lot smaller. Gangnam rent > Mokdong rent. Now I'm not saying that they shouldn't have moved, but studio costs is irrelevant to prize pool and the prestigeness of a tournament known as the GSL and OSL.
On April 17 2013 23:24 xuanzue wrote: this year in korea (100k + 25k) x 3 / 9 months = 42 k every month in tournaments.
last year in korean gsl. 161 k x 5 / 12 = 67 k every month. and the number is bigger if you add osl and wcs kr.
so. THERE ARE LESS MONEY THIS YEAR. I don't see how can be this an improvement.
Did you add in the amount they will automatically get for the season finals?
yeah I did.
I don't think you did. The math doesn't add up. Its $100K per region, per season for all WCS events. The season finals add at minimum $25K for the 5 highest ranked players(assuming they place last). Max is $87.5K per season if they take top 5. Whoever win the season finals will take home bank.
On April 17 2013 23:24 xuanzue wrote: this year in korea (100k + 25k) x 3 / 9 months = 42 k every month in tournaments.
last year in korean gsl. 161 k x 5 / 12 = 67 k every month. and the number is bigger if you add osl and wcs kr.
so. THERE ARE LESS MONEY THIS YEAR. I don't see how can be this an improvement.
Maybe GOM couldnt find sponsors to pay as much money as before, so Blizzard stepped in?
then, why there is an sponsor called mangosix?
I don't know, that studio costs money to rent and run? They have to pay people money to work there?
last year they had those costs too.
Things change, business models change and GOM may be providing support for teams we don't know about. Dumping more money into GSTL or other events. Its not as cut at dry as you make it out to be.
On April 17 2013 23:24 xuanzue wrote: this year in korea (100k + 25k) x 3 / 9 months = 42 k every month in tournaments.
last year in korean gsl. 161 k x 5 / 12 = 67 k every month. and the number is bigger if you add osl and wcs kr.
so. THERE ARE LESS MONEY THIS YEAR. I don't see how can be this an improvement.
Maybe GOM couldnt find sponsors to pay as much money as before, so Blizzard stepped in?
then, why there is an sponsor called mangosix?
I don't know, that studio costs money to rent and run? They have to pay people money to work there?
last year they had those costs too.
Things change, business models change and GOM may be providing support for teams we don't know about. Dumping more money into GSTL or other events. Its not as cut at dry as you make it out to be.
On April 17 2013 23:24 xuanzue wrote: this year in korea (100k + 25k) x 3 / 9 months = 42 k every month in tournaments.
last year in korean gsl. 161 k x 5 / 12 = 67 k every month. and the number is bigger if you add osl and wcs kr.
so. THERE ARE LESS MONEY THIS YEAR. I don't see how can be this an improvement.
Maybe GOM couldnt find sponsors to pay as much money as before, so Blizzard stepped in?
then, why there is an sponsor called mangosix?
I don't know, that studio costs money to rent and run? They have to pay people money to work there?
last year they had those costs too.
Things change, business models change and GOM may be providing support for teams we don't know about. Dumping more money into GSTL or other events. Its not as cut at dry as you make it out to be.
lol, that must be the support that makes happy choya
I can sum the OSL and the wcs kr of last year too.
On April 17 2013 23:24 xuanzue wrote: this year in korea (100k + 25k) x 3 / 9 months = 42 k every month in tournaments.
last year in korean gsl. 161 k x 5 / 12 = 67 k every month. and the number is bigger if you add osl and wcs kr.
so. THERE ARE LESS MONEY THIS YEAR. I don't see how can be this an improvement.
Did you add in the amount they will automatically get for the season finals?
yeah I did.
No, you did not.
2012 Last year 5 seasons of GSL amounted to $757,000 WCS Korea = $26,000 WCS Asia = $60,000 OSL = $93,000 TOTAL = $936,000
2013 This year, it was one regular season of GSL = $162,000 3 WCS Seasons Code S = $300,000 3 WCS Seasons Code A = $60,000 3 Seasonal Finals = $450,000 TOTAL = $972,000
And this without considering anything else that a large amount of Koreans will be taking a significant chunk from the $600,000 allocated to the European and North American leagues, as well as whatever else GSL/OSL might have in mind, including the increased importance of GSTL (they've doubled the prizepool, if you haven't noticed), and other cups with their sponsor money.
I think the points distribution is going to lead to a mess. If you're a top player on NA/EU point farm will be significantly easier than on KR, leading to a finals where KR is underrepresented.
If you win a GSL once, go to one final (end top 4), and get another 2 ro8 finishes in the GSL you end up with 4k points. This would be a major accomplishment in the KR scene. On the other hand, lets say you're a KR NA pro that finishes top 4 consistently, but you get smashed in the finals every single time (finishing either in the 9-16 range), you end up with around the same amount.
Blizzard should remove the points awarded for the 13-16th place in the season finals, they already get money for showing up, no need to give free points too. Next to that, maybe rewarding 1-4 in the season finals a little more would be better also.
On April 17 2013 23:24 xuanzue wrote: this year in korea (100k + 25k) x 3 / 9 months = 42 k every month in tournaments.
last year in korean gsl. 161 k x 5 / 12 = 67 k every month. and the number is bigger if you add osl and wcs kr.
so. THERE ARE LESS MONEY THIS YEAR. I don't see how can be this an improvement.
Did you add in the amount they will automatically get for the season finals?
yeah I did.
No, you did not.
2012 Last year 5 seasons of GSL amounted to $757,000 WCS Korea = $26,000 WCS Asia = $60,000 OSL = $93,000 TOTAL = $936,000
2013 This year, it was one regular season of GSL = $162,000 3 WCS Seasons Code S = $300,000 3 WCS Seasons Code A = $60,000 3 Seasonal Finals = $450,000 TOTAL = $972,000
And this without considering anything else that a large amount of Koreans will be taking a significant chunk from the $600,000 allocated to the European and North American leagues, as well as whatever else GSL/OSL might have in mind, including the increased importance of GSTL (they've doubled the prizepool, if you haven't noticed), and other cups with their sponsor money.
Well you can't add in the entire season finals to Korea, because the other two regions will have players in the other slots. Those may be Korean players, they money is not going to go to the players competing the Korea. The rest of the math looks fine.
People are freaking out over nothing. The players who win the Season finals will make bank. The players that win the regional finals will also make reasonable money.
If the Koreans are truly the best in the world, then they shouldn't worry about winning the seasonal finals. The only conclusion I can reach based on these player comments is that they are actually worried about losing to Americans and Europeans in the seasonal finals.
EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
On April 17 2013 23:24 xuanzue wrote: this year in korea (100k + 25k) x 3 / 9 months = 42 k every month in tournaments.
last year in korean gsl. 161 k x 5 / 12 = 67 k every month. and the number is bigger if you add osl and wcs kr.
so. THERE ARE LESS MONEY THIS YEAR. I don't see how can be this an improvement.
Did you add in the amount they will automatically get for the season finals?
yeah I did.
No, you did not.
2012 Last year 5 seasons of GSL amounted to $757,000 WCS Korea = $26,000 WCS Asia = $60,000 OSL = $93,000 TOTAL = $936,000
2013 This year, it was one regular season of GSL = $162,000 3 WCS Seasons Code S = $300,000 3 WCS Seasons Code A = $60,000 3 Seasonal Finals = $450,000 TOTAL = $972,000
And this without considering anything else that a large amount of Koreans will be taking a significant chunk from the $600,000 allocated to the European and North American leagues, as well as whatever else GSL/OSL might have in mind, including the increased importance of GSTL (they've doubled the prizepool, if you haven't noticed), and other cups with their sponsor money.
Well you can't add in the entire season finals to Korea, because the other two regions will have players in the other slots. Those may be Korean players, they money is not going to go to the players competing the Korea. The rest of the math looks fine.
People are freaking out over nothing. The players who win the Season finals will make bank. The players that win the regional finals will also make reasonable money.
They will still be competing FROM Korea from the most part, since unfortunately only a couple of weekends will be offline. You cannot deny that even though Blizzard reduced the number of events in Korea, they made up for it by giving the Korean players a lot of flexibility, particularly the sizable lot employed by foreign teams, and if it weren't for foreign teams and events employing and inviting over Koreans, Korean SC2 would probably be in a significantly worse position now. People like Choya who are whining want the cake, and they want to eat it too. Appreciate the fact that upon hearing complaints, Blizzard decided to invest a lot more in Code A, and to evenly distribute the prizes in the regional league to the ultimate benefit of the many pro gamers in Korea. Why is $20k not sufficient as a first place? It might not be $45k as it was before, but this way, it is much more constructive, and anyway, the winners have a very good chance of multiplying that figure by three or four times in the seasonal finals.
On April 18 2013 00:07 Branman wrote: If the Koreans are truly the best in the world, then they shouldn't worry about winning the seasonal finals. The only conclusion I can reach based on these player comments is that they are actually worried about losing to Americans and Europeans in the seasonal finals.
EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
I assume that all the comments are based on them seeing the prize money for GSL and not even taking into account the season finals or the minimum amount they would win. They all seem to be "Oh crap, I got this on my phone and then responded via twitter after reading the amounts listen in my twitter feed. Let me respond instantly, because twitter is already open and its easy."
On April 17 2013 23:24 xuanzue wrote: this year in korea (100k + 25k) x 3 / 9 months = 42 k every month in tournaments.
last year in korean gsl. 161 k x 5 / 12 = 67 k every month. and the number is bigger if you add osl and wcs kr.
so. THERE ARE LESS MONEY THIS YEAR. I don't see how can be this an improvement.
Did you add in the amount they will automatically get for the season finals?
yeah I did.
No, you did not.
2012 Last year 5 seasons of GSL amounted to $757,000 WCS Korea = $26,000 WCS Asia = $60,000 OSL = $93,000 TOTAL = $936,000
2013 This year, it was one regular season of GSL = $162,000 3 WCS Seasons Code S = $300,000 3 WCS Seasons Code A = $60,000 3 Seasonal Finals = $450,000 TOTAL = $972,000
And this without considering anything else that a large amount of Koreans will be taking a significant chunk from the $600,000 allocated to the European and North American leagues, as well as whatever else GSL/OSL might have in mind, including the increased importance of GSTL (they've doubled the prizepool, if you haven't noticed), and other cups with their sponsor money.
Well you can't add in the entire season finals to Korea, because the other two regions will have players in the other slots. Those may be Korean players, they money is not going to go to the players competing the Korea. The rest of the math looks fine.
People are freaking out over nothing. The players who win the Season finals will make bank. The players that win the regional finals will also make reasonable money.
They will still be competing FROM Korea from the most part, since unfortunately only a couple of weekends will be offline. You cannot deny that even though Blizzard reduced the number of events in Korea, they made up for it by giving the Korean players a lot of flexibility, particularly the sizable lot employed by foreign teams, and if it weren't for foreign teams and events employing and inviting over Koreans, Korean SC2 would probably be in a significantly worse position now. People like Choya who are whining want the cake, and they want to eat it too. Appreciate the fact that upon hearing complaints, Blizzard decided to invest a lot more in Code A, and to evenly distribute the prizes in the regional league to the ultimate benefit of the many pro gamers in Korea. Why is $20k not sufficient as a first place? It might not be $45k as it was before, but this way, it is much more constructive, and anyway, the winners have a very good chance of multiplying that figure by three or four times in the seasonal finals.
GOM cut the number of events on own while they worked with Blizzard to get the GSL on OGN. GOM did this because it was beneficial to them. I don't really blame Blizzard for that in any way. With the release of HotS and last years theme of way to much SC2, I think GOM would always have thrown less events this year.
On April 18 2013 00:07 Branman wrote: If the Koreans are truly the best in the world, then they shouldn't worry about winning the seasonal finals. The only conclusion I can reach based on these player comments is that they are actually worried about losing to Americans and Europeans in the seasonal finals.
EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
I assume that all the comments are based on them seeing the prize money for GSL and not even taking into account the season finals or the minimum amount they would win. They all seem to be "Oh crap, I got this on my phone and then responded via twitter after reading the amounts listen in my twitter feed. Let me respond instantly, because twitter is already open and its easy."
I'd say that's a bad assumption because these are professional players and coaches. We should give them the benefit of the doubt that they actually took the time to research the announcements and tournament structure.
On April 18 2013 00:23 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: :DDD StarCraft II World Championship Series 2013 Season 1 Qualifier #4 (Go4SC2 #284)
RO2048 :DDD
watch the NA qualifier barely make 128, becauseits gonna cost 18$ per person per qualifier... Should just let esl run the NA qualifier instead of money hungry mlg!!
On April 18 2013 00:23 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: :DDD StarCraft II World Championship Series 2013 Season 1 Qualifier #4 (Go4SC2 #284)
RO2048 :DDD
watch the NA qualifier barely make 128, becauseits gonna cost 18$ per person per qualifier... Should just let esl run the NA qualifier instead of money hungry mlg!!
They aren't charging any more. That lasted less than 24 hours.
On April 18 2013 00:07 Branman wrote: If the Koreans are truly the best in the world, then they shouldn't worry about winning the seasonal finals. The only conclusion I can reach based on these player comments is that they are actually worried about losing to Americans and Europeans in the seasonal finals.
EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
I assume that all the comments are based on them seeing the prize money for GSL and not even taking into account the season finals or the minimum amount they would win. They all seem to be "Oh crap, I got this on my phone and then responded via twitter after reading the amounts listen in my twitter feed. Let me respond instantly, because twitter is already open and its easy."
I'd say that's a bad assumption because these are professional players and coaches. We should give them the benefit of the doubt that they actually took the time to research the announcements and tournament structure.
I don't really give complaining on the internet the benefit of the doubt. Whining to your followers on twitter is pretty unprofessional in general and I don't really take a lot of the complaints seriously. A lot of these folks are very young and do dumb stuff in interviews. Look at Teaja's interview where he stated he hated Blizzard. Kennigit was talking openly talking about how that was bad PR that Liquid shouldn't have on twitter.
There is the potential for the best player in the GSL to win a lot of money per season, even if the GSL finals are not where that happens. And even if they don't win everything they still take home a large amount of money. The complaining seems silly or based on first glance.
On April 17 2013 23:24 xuanzue wrote: this year in korea (100k + 25k) x 3 / 9 months = 42 k every month in tournaments.
last year in korean gsl. 161 k x 5 / 12 = 67 k every month. and the number is bigger if you add osl and wcs kr.
so. THERE ARE LESS MONEY THIS YEAR. I don't see how can be this an improvement.
Maybe GOM couldnt find sponsors to pay as much money as before, so Blizzard stepped in?
then, why there is an sponsor called mangosix?
I don't know, that studio costs money to rent and run? They have to pay people money to work there?
last year they had those costs too.
Things change, business models change and GOM may be providing support for teams we don't know about. Dumping more money into GSTL or other events. Its not as cut at dry as you make it out to be.
People are freaking out over nothing. The players who win the Season finals will make bank. The players that win the regional finals will also make reasonable money.
There are lots of people, like me, who love the GSL and are bummed that their favorite tournament has less events per year now, with way less prize money each. It used to be the greatest tournament in the world, and now it's not much more than a WCS qualifier, whereas all other qualifiers are added to their regions tournaments without replacing them. It's not the end of the world but it's certainly not "nothing".
Why are the majority of the koreans angry about the code S prize pool? Only first place got a bit cut, 2nd got a small cut. Everybody else makes more money. A very small portion of players actually win or take second. Players like MKP are making more money, not less.
edit - 1st place being cut in more than half I agree is pretty ridiculous. But the people complaining are the people that are going to be making more money (non GSL winners)
On April 18 2013 00:23 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: :DDD StarCraft II World Championship Series 2013 Season 1 Qualifier #4 (Go4SC2 #284)
RO2048 :DDD
watch the NA qualifier barely make 128, becauseits gonna cost 18$ per person per qualifier... Should just let esl run the NA qualifier instead of money hungry mlg!!
Yeah better have those f5 spam contests to get in.
On April 18 2013 00:07 Branman wrote: If the Koreans are truly the best in the world, then they shouldn't worry about winning the seasonal finals. The only conclusion I can reach based on these player comments is that they are actually worried about losing to Americans and Europeans in the seasonal finals.
EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
I assume that all the comments are based on them seeing the prize money for GSL and not even taking into account the season finals or the minimum amount they would win. They all seem to be "Oh crap, I got this on my phone and then responded via twitter after reading the amounts listen in my twitter feed. Let me respond instantly, because twitter is already open and its easy."
I'd say that's a bad assumption because these are professional players and coaches. We should give them the benefit of the doubt that they actually took the time to research the announcements and tournament structure.
I don't really give complaining on the internet the benefit of the doubt. Whining to your followers on twitter is pretty unprofessional in general and I don't really take a lot of the complaints seriously. A lot of these folks are very young and do dumb stuff in interviews. Look at Teaja's interview where he stated he hated Blizzard. Kennigit was talking openly talking about how that was bad PR that Liquid shouldn't have on twitter.
There is the potential for the best player in the GSL to win a lot of money per season, even if the GSL finals are not where that happens. And even if they don't win everything they still take home a large amount of money. The complaining seems silly or based on first glance.
What do you not get about this? Probability of two events happening together is always less than one event happening, ergo probability of winning GSL and season finals is less than probability of winning GSL alone, which means that the chances of getting 50k are now lower than they were before, even if you're a championship contender. What is so hard to understand about this? This is 100% bad news for Koreans interested in prize money. Period.
People are freaking out over nothing. The players who win the Season finals will make bank. The players that win the regional finals will also make reasonable money.
There are lots of people, like me, who love the GSL and are bummed that their favorite tournament has less events per year now, with way less prize money each. It used to be the greatest tournament in the world, and now it's not much more than a WCS qualifier, whereas all other qualifiers are added to their regions tournaments without replacing them. It's not the end of the world but it's certainly not "nothing".
I guess that is a point of view, but I rarely care how much people win at the end of these events. The GSL isn't changing and is the same when I watch it every morning its on. The only thing that is different is that I know the top 5 players are going to compete in another event later this summer.
On April 18 2013 00:07 Branman wrote: If the Koreans are truly the best in the world, then they shouldn't worry about winning the seasonal finals. The only conclusion I can reach based on these player comments is that they are actually worried about losing to Americans and Europeans in the seasonal finals.
EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
I assume that all the comments are based on them seeing the prize money for GSL and not even taking into account the season finals or the minimum amount they would win. They all seem to be "Oh crap, I got this on my phone and then responded via twitter after reading the amounts listen in my twitter feed. Let me respond instantly, because twitter is already open and its easy."
I'd say that's a bad assumption because these are professional players and coaches. We should give them the benefit of the doubt that they actually took the time to research the announcements and tournament structure.
I don't really give complaining on the internet the benefit of the doubt. Whining to your followers on twitter is pretty unprofessional in general and I don't really take a lot of the complaints seriously. A lot of these folks are very young and do dumb stuff in interviews. Look at Teaja's interview where he stated he hated Blizzard. Kennigit was talking openly talking about how that was bad PR that Liquid shouldn't have on twitter.
There is the potential for the best player in the GSL to win a lot of money per season, even if the GSL finals are not where that happens. And even if they don't win everything they still take home a large amount of money. The complaining seems silly or based on first glance.
What do you not get about this? Probability of two events happening together is always less than one event happening, ergo probability of winning GSL and season finals is less than probability of winning GSL alone, which means that the chances of getting 50k are now lower than they were before, even if you're a championship contender. What is so hard to understand about this? This is 100% bad news for Koreans interested in prize money. Period.
It's also a high probability of placing highly in a tournament with 5 Koreans, 5 Americans, and 5 Europeans assuming that Koreans are actually better than the Americans and Europeans. The GSL champion might not win the whole tournament, but he is almost guaranteed to take down an extra $7,500 and will likely win more. Yes, this is a probabilistic exercise, but I'm sure that the expected value of the GSL champion's winnings are approximately equal to what it was before.
On April 18 2013 00:07 Branman wrote: If the Koreans are truly the best in the world, then they shouldn't worry about winning the seasonal finals. The only conclusion I can reach based on these player comments is that they are actually worried about losing to Americans and Europeans in the seasonal finals.
EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
I assume that all the comments are based on them seeing the prize money for GSL and not even taking into account the season finals or the minimum amount they would win. They all seem to be "Oh crap, I got this on my phone and then responded via twitter after reading the amounts listen in my twitter feed. Let me respond instantly, because twitter is already open and its easy."
I'd say that's a bad assumption because these are professional players and coaches. We should give them the benefit of the doubt that they actually took the time to research the announcements and tournament structure.
I don't really give complaining on the internet the benefit of the doubt. Whining to your followers on twitter is pretty unprofessional in general and I don't really take a lot of the complaints seriously. A lot of these folks are very young and do dumb stuff in interviews. Look at Teaja's interview where he stated he hated Blizzard. Kennigit was talking openly talking about how that was bad PR that Liquid shouldn't have on twitter.
There is the potential for the best player in the GSL to win a lot of money per season, even if the GSL finals are not where that happens. And even if they don't win everything they still take home a large amount of money. The complaining seems silly or based on first glance.
What do you not get about this? Probability of two events happening together is always less than one event happening, ergo probability of winning GSL and season finals is less than probability of winning GSL alone, which means that the chances of getting 50k are now lower than they were before, even if you're a championship contender. What is so hard to understand about this? This is 100% bad news for Koreans interested in prize money. Period.
It's also a high probability of placing highly in a tournament with 5 Koreans, 5 Americans, and 5 Europeans assuming that Koreans are actually better than the Americans and Europeans. The GSL champion might not win the whole tournament, but he is almost guaranteed to take down an extra $7,500 and will likely win more. Yes, this is a probabilistic exercise, but I'm sure that the expected value of the GSL champion's winnings are approximately equal to what it was before.
Exactly. The players that are focused on prize money have the ability to win more than last year per season. It is very unlikely that the GSL champion is going to bomb out and place 16th. Even if he took 3rd place in the season finals, he still would have won 30K. The if someone comes in second place both times, they take hope 32K. The top players are from the regions are going to rise to the top of the season finals and add to their winnings from their regional finals.
On April 18 2013 01:07 Kergy wrote: so a player that wins the NA gsl gets the same ammount of money as one that wins the real one
how is this fair, haha
It's fair because it is Blizzard's money and they are choosing not to show bias towards any regions. Kind of getting tired of hearing people bitch just to bitch. If you are so worried about Koreans not making enough money, then put up the extra cash yourself. If you are worried about Koreans having less tournaments, again, put up the dough and create the tournament yourself. As an added bonus, feel free to invite whomever you wish so that it satisfies your hunger for "only the best".
On April 18 2013 00:07 Branman wrote: If the Koreans are truly the best in the world, then they shouldn't worry about winning the seasonal finals. The only conclusion I can reach based on these player comments is that they are actually worried about losing to Americans and Europeans in the seasonal finals.
EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
I assume that all the comments are based on them seeing the prize money for GSL and not even taking into account the season finals or the minimum amount they would win. They all seem to be "Oh crap, I got this on my phone and then responded via twitter after reading the amounts listen in my twitter feed. Let me respond instantly, because twitter is already open and its easy."
I'd say that's a bad assumption because these are professional players and coaches. We should give them the benefit of the doubt that they actually took the time to research the announcements and tournament structure.
I don't really give complaining on the internet the benefit of the doubt. Whining to your followers on twitter is pretty unprofessional in general and I don't really take a lot of the complaints seriously. A lot of these folks are very young and do dumb stuff in interviews. Look at Teaja's interview where he stated he hated Blizzard. Kennigit was talking openly talking about how that was bad PR that Liquid shouldn't have on twitter.
There is the potential for the best player in the GSL to win a lot of money per season, even if the GSL finals are not where that happens. And even if they don't win everything they still take home a large amount of money. The complaining seems silly or based on first glance.
What do you not get about this? Probability of two events happening together is always less than one event happening, ergo probability of winning GSL and season finals is less than probability of winning GSL alone, which means that the chances of getting 50k are now lower than they were before, even if you're a championship contender. What is so hard to understand about this? This is 100% bad news for Koreans interested in prize money. Period.
It's also a high probability of placing highly in a tournament with 5 Koreans, 5 Americans, and 5 Europeans assuming that Koreans are actually better than the Americans and Europeans. The GSL champion might not win the whole tournament, but he is almost guaranteed to take down an extra $7,500 and will likely win more. Yes, this is a probabilistic exercise, but I'm sure that the expected value of the GSL champion's winnings are approximately equal to what it was before.
Probability is still less. And I'm not just saying that. It's a fact. If probability of winning GSL is 1/x and probability of coming Y place in seasonal finals is 1/y, then probability of both happening together is 1/x * 1/y . Even if the probabilities are extremely high, it's still less than 1/x or 1/y individually.
The first prize for GSL Code S is ~46k. In order to make near that much, a winner of Code S now needs to come at least 2nd in the seasonal finals. That is far from guaranteed and far from easy, even if there are Europeans/Americans in the bracket. There are still 4 other top Koreans who can trade games with you on any day of the week.
On April 18 2013 00:07 Branman wrote: If the Koreans are truly the best in the world, then they shouldn't worry about winning the seasonal finals. The only conclusion I can reach based on these player comments is that they are actually worried about losing to Americans and Europeans in the seasonal finals.
EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
I assume that all the comments are based on them seeing the prize money for GSL and not even taking into account the season finals or the minimum amount they would win. They all seem to be "Oh crap, I got this on my phone and then responded via twitter after reading the amounts listen in my twitter feed. Let me respond instantly, because twitter is already open and its easy."
I'd say that's a bad assumption because these are professional players and coaches. We should give them the benefit of the doubt that they actually took the time to research the announcements and tournament structure.
I don't really give complaining on the internet the benefit of the doubt. Whining to your followers on twitter is pretty unprofessional in general and I don't really take a lot of the complaints seriously. A lot of these folks are very young and do dumb stuff in interviews. Look at Teaja's interview where he stated he hated Blizzard. Kennigit was talking openly talking about how that was bad PR that Liquid shouldn't have on twitter.
There is the potential for the best player in the GSL to win a lot of money per season, even if the GSL finals are not where that happens. And even if they don't win everything they still take home a large amount of money. The complaining seems silly or based on first glance.
What do you not get about this? Probability of two events happening together is always less than one event happening, ergo probability of winning GSL and season finals is less than probability of winning GSL alone, which means that the chances of getting 50k are now lower than they were before, even if you're a championship contender. What is so hard to understand about this? This is 100% bad news for Koreans interested in prize money. Period.
It's also a high probability of placing highly in a tournament with 5 Koreans, 5 Americans, and 5 Europeans assuming that Koreans are actually better than the Americans and Europeans. The GSL champion might not win the whole tournament, but he is almost guaranteed to take down an extra $7,500 and will likely win more. Yes, this is a probabilistic exercise, but I'm sure that the expected value of the GSL champion's winnings are approximately equal to what it was before.
Probability is still less. And I'm not just saying that. It's a fact. If probability of winning GSL is 1/x and probability of coming Y place in seasonal finals is 1/y, then probability of both happening together is 1/x * 1/y . Even if the probabilities are extremely high, it's still less than 1/x or 1/y individually.
The first prize for GSL Code S is ~46k. In order to make near that much, a winner of Code S now needs to come at least 2nd in the seasonal finals. That is far from guaranteed and far from easy, even if there are Europeans/Americans in the bracket. There are still 4 other top Koreans who can trade games with you on any day of the week.
It's the expected value. So the calculation is more like this:
So it's assume that that a GSL champion has a 1/5th chance of winning, a 25% chance of 2nd, a 25% chance of 3-4th, a 20% chance of 5-8, and a 10% chance of 9-16th.
The expected winning is $11,500. Still not as much as a traditional GSL, but it's the only place that fares worse than in the previous system.
On April 18 2013 00:07 Branman wrote: If the Koreans are truly the best in the world, then they shouldn't worry about winning the seasonal finals. The only conclusion I can reach based on these player comments is that they are actually worried about losing to Americans and Europeans in the seasonal finals.
EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
I assume that all the comments are based on them seeing the prize money for GSL and not even taking into account the season finals or the minimum amount they would win. They all seem to be "Oh crap, I got this on my phone and then responded via twitter after reading the amounts listen in my twitter feed. Let me respond instantly, because twitter is already open and its easy."
I'd say that's a bad assumption because these are professional players and coaches. We should give them the benefit of the doubt that they actually took the time to research the announcements and tournament structure.
I don't really give complaining on the internet the benefit of the doubt. Whining to your followers on twitter is pretty unprofessional in general and I don't really take a lot of the complaints seriously. A lot of these folks are very young and do dumb stuff in interviews. Look at Teaja's interview where he stated he hated Blizzard. Kennigit was talking openly talking about how that was bad PR that Liquid shouldn't have on twitter.
There is the potential for the best player in the GSL to win a lot of money per season, even if the GSL finals are not where that happens. And even if they don't win everything they still take home a large amount of money. The complaining seems silly or based on first glance.
What do you not get about this? Probability of two events happening together is always less than one event happening, ergo probability of winning GSL and season finals is less than probability of winning GSL alone, which means that the chances of getting 50k are now lower than they were before, even if you're a championship contender. What is so hard to understand about this? This is 100% bad news for Koreans interested in prize money. Period.
It's also a high probability of placing highly in a tournament with 5 Koreans, 5 Americans, and 5 Europeans assuming that Koreans are actually better than the Americans and Europeans. The GSL champion might not win the whole tournament, but he is almost guaranteed to take down an extra $7,500 and will likely win more. Yes, this is a probabilistic exercise, but I'm sure that the expected value of the GSL champion's winnings are approximately equal to what it was before.
Probability is still less. And I'm not just saying that. It's a fact. If probability of winning GSL is 1/x and probability of coming Y place in seasonal finals is 1/y, then probability of both happening together is 1/x * 1/y . Even if the probabilities are extremely high, it's still less than 1/x or 1/y individually.
The first prize for GSL Code S is ~46k. In order to make near that much, a winner of Code S now needs to come at least 2nd in the seasonal finals. That is far from guaranteed and far from easy, even if there are Europeans/Americans in the bracket. There are still 4 other top Koreans who can trade games with you on any day of the week.
It's the expected value. So the calculation is more like this:
So it's assume that that a GSL champion has a 1/5th chance of winning, a 25% chance of 2nd, a 25% chance of 3-4th, a 20% chance of 5-8, and a 10% chance of 9-16th.
The expected winning is $11,500. Still not as much as a traditional GSL, but it's the only place that fares worse than in the previous system.
The winner faring worse is a pretty big deal. Further, WCS is supposed to be an improvement to the scene, not a tradeoff. This just feels like redistributing funds rather than actually injecting anything new into the scene. That's why people are angry.
On April 18 2013 00:07 Branman wrote: If the Koreans are truly the best in the world, then they shouldn't worry about winning the seasonal finals. The only conclusion I can reach based on these player comments is that they are actually worried about losing to Americans and Europeans in the seasonal finals.
EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
I assume that all the comments are based on them seeing the prize money for GSL and not even taking into account the season finals or the minimum amount they would win. They all seem to be "Oh crap, I got this on my phone and then responded via twitter after reading the amounts listen in my twitter feed. Let me respond instantly, because twitter is already open and its easy."
I'd say that's a bad assumption because these are professional players and coaches. We should give them the benefit of the doubt that they actually took the time to research the announcements and tournament structure.
I don't really give complaining on the internet the benefit of the doubt. Whining to your followers on twitter is pretty unprofessional in general and I don't really take a lot of the complaints seriously. A lot of these folks are very young and do dumb stuff in interviews. Look at Teaja's interview where he stated he hated Blizzard. Kennigit was talking openly talking about how that was bad PR that Liquid shouldn't have on twitter.
There is the potential for the best player in the GSL to win a lot of money per season, even if the GSL finals are not where that happens. And even if they don't win everything they still take home a large amount of money. The complaining seems silly or based on first glance.
What do you not get about this? Probability of two events happening together is always less than one event happening, ergo probability of winning GSL and season finals is less than probability of winning GSL alone, which means that the chances of getting 50k are now lower than they were before, even if you're a championship contender. What is so hard to understand about this? This is 100% bad news for Koreans interested in prize money. Period.
It's also a high probability of placing highly in a tournament with 5 Koreans, 5 Americans, and 5 Europeans assuming that Koreans are actually better than the Americans and Europeans. The GSL champion might not win the whole tournament, but he is almost guaranteed to take down an extra $7,500 and will likely win more. Yes, this is a probabilistic exercise, but I'm sure that the expected value of the GSL champion's winnings are approximately equal to what it was before.
Probability is still less. And I'm not just saying that. It's a fact. If probability of winning GSL is 1/x and probability of coming Y place in seasonal finals is 1/y, then probability of both happening together is 1/x * 1/y . Even if the probabilities are extremely high, it's still less than 1/x or 1/y individually.
The first prize for GSL Code S is ~46k. In order to make near that much, a winner of Code S now needs to come at least 2nd in the seasonal finals. That is far from guaranteed and far from easy, even if there are Europeans/Americans in the bracket. There are still 4 other top Koreans who can trade games with you on any day of the week.
It's the expected value. So the calculation is more like this:
So it's assume that that a GSL champion has a 1/5th chance of winning, a 25% chance of 2nd, a 25% chance of 3-4th, a 20% chance of 5-8, and a 10% chance of 9-16th.
The expected winning is $11,500. Still not as much as a traditional GSL, but it's the only place that fares worse than in the previous system.
The winner faring worse is a pretty big deal. Further, WCS is supposed to be an improvement to the scene, not a tradeoff. This just feels like redistributing funds rather than actually injecting anything new into the scene. That's why people are angry.
You don't support the scene by having an overly lopsided 1st place prize. It's an improvement to the scene because more people will be able to make a solid living off of the tournament than before. It will also be an improvement because the longer storylines will give better opportunities for sponsors. It's a big deal if the GSL season 2 champion is basically qualified for the Blizzcon finals-- it should be much easier to find a sponsorship knowing that there is a huge event in the future.
On April 18 2013 00:07 Branman wrote: If the Koreans are truly the best in the world, then they shouldn't worry about winning the seasonal finals. The only conclusion I can reach based on these player comments is that they are actually worried about losing to Americans and Europeans in the seasonal finals.
EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
I assume that all the comments are based on them seeing the prize money for GSL and not even taking into account the season finals or the minimum amount they would win. They all seem to be "Oh crap, I got this on my phone and then responded via twitter after reading the amounts listen in my twitter feed. Let me respond instantly, because twitter is already open and its easy."
I'd say that's a bad assumption because these are professional players and coaches. We should give them the benefit of the doubt that they actually took the time to research the announcements and tournament structure.
I don't really give complaining on the internet the benefit of the doubt. Whining to your followers on twitter is pretty unprofessional in general and I don't really take a lot of the complaints seriously. A lot of these folks are very young and do dumb stuff in interviews. Look at Teaja's interview where he stated he hated Blizzard. Kennigit was talking openly talking about how that was bad PR that Liquid shouldn't have on twitter.
There is the potential for the best player in the GSL to win a lot of money per season, even if the GSL finals are not where that happens. And even if they don't win everything they still take home a large amount of money. The complaining seems silly or based on first glance.
What do you not get about this? Probability of two events happening together is always less than one event happening, ergo probability of winning GSL and season finals is less than probability of winning GSL alone, which means that the chances of getting 50k are now lower than they were before, even if you're a championship contender. What is so hard to understand about this? This is 100% bad news for Koreans interested in prize money. Period.
It's also a high probability of placing highly in a tournament with 5 Koreans, 5 Americans, and 5 Europeans assuming that Koreans are actually better than the Americans and Europeans. The GSL champion might not win the whole tournament, but he is almost guaranteed to take down an extra $7,500 and will likely win more. Yes, this is a probabilistic exercise, but I'm sure that the expected value of the GSL champion's winnings are approximately equal to what it was before.
Probability is still less. And I'm not just saying that. It's a fact. If probability of winning GSL is 1/x and probability of coming Y place in seasonal finals is 1/y, then probability of both happening together is 1/x * 1/y . Even if the probabilities are extremely high, it's still less than 1/x or 1/y individually.
The first prize for GSL Code S is ~46k. In order to make near that much, a winner of Code S now needs to come at least 2nd in the seasonal finals. That is far from guaranteed and far from easy, even if there are Europeans/Americans in the bracket. There are still 4 other top Koreans who can trade games with you on any day of the week.
It's the expected value. So the calculation is more like this:
So it's assume that that a GSL champion has a 1/5th chance of winning, a 25% chance of 2nd, a 25% chance of 3-4th, a 20% chance of 5-8, and a 10% chance of 9-16th.
The expected winning is $11,500. Still not as much as a traditional GSL, but it's the only place that fares worse than in the previous system.
The winner faring worse is a pretty big deal. Further, WCS is supposed to be an improvement to the scene, not a tradeoff. This just feels like redistributing funds rather than actually injecting anything new into the scene. That's why people are angry.
Yes, but the team also gets another tournament to go to where they can show their sponsors and get more exposure. This tournament is world wide, backed by Blizzard and will pull in viewers from all three regions who watched the other WSC events. It is more than doubling the exposure for any team makes it to the season finals, without having to do anything different than what they did last year.
People are freaking out over nothing. The players who win the Season finals will make bank. The players that win the regional finals will also make reasonable money.
There are lots of people, like me, who love the GSL and are bummed that their favorite tournament has less events per year now, with way less prize money each. It used to be the greatest tournament in the world, and now it's not much more than a WCS qualifier, whereas all other qualifiers are added to their regions tournaments without replacing them. It's not the end of the world but it's certainly not "nothing".
I guess that is a point of view, but I rarely care how much people win at the end of these events. The GSL isn't changing and is the same when I watch it every morning its on. The only thing that is different is that I know the top 5 players are going to compete in another event later this summer.
You ignored most of my comment, it's not about the prize money. It's about the fact that GSL is now as important as an NA WCS qualifier, that it has less great players *and* occurs less often. I just don't understand why they replace every single individual Korean tournament with WCS (or rather, replace 4 GSL / 2 OSL with 3 GSL / 1 OSL) and then don't even match previous amounts of prize money, while giving EU and NA WCS Qualifiers on top of existing tournaments. You can now win way more money in NA than in Korea, that's ridiculous.
On April 18 2013 01:07 Kergy wrote: so a player that wins the NA gsl gets the same ammount of money as one that wins the real one
how is this fair, haha
It's fair because it is Blizzard's money and they are choosing not to show bias towards any regions. Kind of getting tired of hearing people bitch just to bitch. If you are so worried about Koreans not making enough money, then put up the extra cash yourself. If you are worried about Koreans having less tournaments, again, put up the dough and create the tournament yourself. As an added bonus, feel free to invite whomever you wish so that it satisfies your hunger for "only the best".
Wait so we're not allowed to criticize anything they do because it's their money? Even though their revenue comes from the fans? You have no issues because Blizzard is doing what you agree with, however for a lot of people they don't like what they're doing and have a right to complain justifiably.
This post reminds of those people that are like "What? You don't like this government? Then you can get out!"
This is going to come off harsh, and for that I'm sorry. No you don't actually have the right to criticize as harshly as people have about how a company decides to spend their money, unless you are a shareholder. I don't agree or disagree with anything they are doing, because I'm genuinely neutral as it doesn't ACTUALLY affect me.
I believe people just like to bitch and moan and start an uproar over EVERYTHING; no matter how small it actually is. Why does it really bother people if the prize pool has been adjusted to be distributed more even? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't GSL going to be reduced to 4 tournaments this year even before WCS was announced? If that is the case then the argument that there's less tournaments becomes invalid.
"Justifiably" Who determines that? Everyone just sounds like a bunch of spoiled brats who want to throw a hissy anytime something happens. The only argument that I can actually agree with is that this does deplete the hardest tournament in the world of its prestige and I do believe Blizzard should have just separated WCS from GSL altogether.
People are freaking out over nothing. The players who win the Season finals will make bank. The players that win the regional finals will also make reasonable money.
There are lots of people, like me, who love the GSL and are bummed that their favorite tournament has less events per year now, with way less prize money each. It used to be the greatest tournament in the world, and now it's not much more than a WCS qualifier, whereas all other qualifiers are added to their regions tournaments without replacing them. It's not the end of the world but it's certainly not "nothing".
I guess that is a point of view, but I rarely care how much people win at the end of these events. The GSL isn't changing and is the same when I watch it every morning its on. The only thing that is different is that I know the top 5 players are going to compete in another event later this summer.
You ignored most of my comment, it's not about the prize money. It's about the fact that GSL is now as important as an NA WCS qualifier, that it has less great players *and* occurs less often. I just don't understand why they replace every single individual Korean tournament with WCS (or rather, replace 4 GSL / 2 OSL with 3 GSL / 1 OSL) and then don't even match previous amounts of prize money, while giving EU and NA WCS Qualifiers on top of existing tournaments. You can now win way more money in NA than in Korea, that's ridiculous.
I didn't ignore it at all. I just didn't agree with you, there is a difference. I don't agree that GSL has been diminished. The majority of the players who went to NA are on NA teams, like TL and EG. Further more, most of them were not qualified for Code S and a few were qualified for code A. There were always going to be fewer events this year because we had WAY to many last year.
And the reason they didn't make a separate tournament for WSC is that GOM would not have liked that at all. If they made a separate tournament for WCS, people would be losing their minds how Blizzard was trying to destroy GSL and make players choose between the two events. GOM would have another regional tournament to compete with, that was Blizzard supported and would cut into their numbers. Even if GOM ran it, they would need to find separate times and staff to run yet another set of matches, which would confuse their viewers.
The thing is I'm positive no NA or EU pro would actually complain if WCS KR had a bigger prize pool. Blizzard shouldn't disallow GOM from contributing to a bigger pool, like they did for code A
People are freaking out over nothing. The players who win the Season finals will make bank. The players that win the regional finals will also make reasonable money.
There are lots of people, like me, who love the GSL and are bummed that their favorite tournament has less events per year now, with way less prize money each. It used to be the greatest tournament in the world, and now it's not much more than a WCS qualifier, whereas all other qualifiers are added to their regions tournaments without replacing them. It's not the end of the world but it's certainly not "nothing".
I guess that is a point of view, but I rarely care how much people win at the end of these events. The GSL isn't changing and is the same when I watch it every morning its on. The only thing that is different is that I know the top 5 players are going to compete in another event later this summer.
You ignored most of my comment, it's not about the prize money. It's about the fact that GSL is now as important as an NA WCS qualifier, that it has less great players *and* occurs less often. I just don't understand why they replace every single individual Korean tournament with WCS (or rather, replace 4 GSL / 2 OSL with 3 GSL / 1 OSL) and then don't even match previous amounts of prize money, while giving EU and NA WCS Qualifiers on top of existing tournaments. You can now win way more money in NA than in Korea, that's ridiculous.
If the audience, money, and sponsorships are greater in North America than in Korea, why shouldn't you be able to win more money in North America? Soccer example: the English Premiere league is filled with non-Englishmen because that's where the money is.
As for WCS being in addition to American and EU tournaments-- that's a bad comparison. There was no NA/EU GSL style tournament before WCS. The closest was NASL (which is awesome btw), but that was an international tournament with an offline round of 8. Nothing is stopping Korean organizations from starting their own tournaments. If Koreans want to have their own version of MLG or Dreamhack, then they are free to hold them in addition to WCS.
On April 17 2013 18:57 Daswollvieh wrote: I wonder how the Korean players are gonna handle the live rounds in NA/EU. With their presence being required for like 5 days, it´s gonna cost them dearly and that for every season. Maybe some new partnerships or open training house concepts will arise from this?
EDIT: Or the feared Korean-reign won´t happen because most will stay in Korea.
95% of the KRs that joined are on foreign teams bro. Travel won't be an issue for them.
This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
On April 18 2013 00:07 Branman wrote: If the Koreans are truly the best in the world, then they shouldn't worry about winning the seasonal finals. The only conclusion I can reach based on these player comments is that they are actually worried about losing to Americans and Europeans in the seasonal finals.
EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
I assume that all the comments are based on them seeing the prize money for GSL and not even taking into account the season finals or the minimum amount they would win. They all seem to be "Oh crap, I got this on my phone and then responded via twitter after reading the amounts listen in my twitter feed. Let me respond instantly, because twitter is already open and its easy."
I'd say that's a bad assumption because these are professional players and coaches. We should give them the benefit of the doubt that they actually took the time to research the announcements and tournament structure.
I don't really give complaining on the internet the benefit of the doubt. Whining to your followers on twitter is pretty unprofessional in general and I don't really take a lot of the complaints seriously. A lot of these folks are very young and do dumb stuff in interviews. Look at Teaja's interview where he stated he hated Blizzard. Kennigit was talking openly talking about how that was bad PR that Liquid shouldn't have on twitter.
There is the potential for the best player in the GSL to win a lot of money per season, even if the GSL finals are not where that happens. And even if they don't win everything they still take home a large amount of money. The complaining seems silly or based on first glance.
What do you not get about this? Probability of two events happening together is always less than one event happening, ergo probability of winning GSL and season finals is less than probability of winning GSL alone, which means that the chances of getting 50k are now lower than they were before, even if you're a championship contender. What is so hard to understand about this? This is 100% bad news for Koreans interested in prize money. Period.
It's also a high probability of placing highly in a tournament with 5 Koreans, 5 Americans, and 5 Europeans assuming that Koreans are actually better than the Americans and Europeans. The GSL champion might not win the whole tournament, but he is almost guaranteed to take down an extra $7,500 and will likely win more. Yes, this is a probabilistic exercise, but I'm sure that the expected value of the GSL champion's winnings are approximately equal to what it was before.
Probability is still less. And I'm not just saying that. It's a fact. If probability of winning GSL is 1/x and probability of coming Y place in seasonal finals is 1/y, then probability of both happening together is 1/x * 1/y . Even if the probabilities are extremely high, it's still less than 1/x or 1/y individually.
The first prize for GSL Code S is ~46k. In order to make near that much, a winner of Code S now needs to come at least 2nd in the seasonal finals. That is far from guaranteed and far from easy, even if there are Europeans/Americans in the bracket. There are still 4 other top Koreans who can trade games with you on any day of the week.
It's the expected value. So the calculation is more like this:
So it's assume that that a GSL champion has a 1/5th chance of winning, a 25% chance of 2nd, a 25% chance of 3-4th, a 20% chance of 5-8, and a 10% chance of 9-16th.
The expected winning is $11,500. Still not as much as a traditional GSL, but it's the only place that fares worse than in the previous system.
The winner faring worse is a pretty big deal. Further, WCS is supposed to be an improvement to the scene, not a tradeoff. This just feels like redistributing funds rather than actually injecting anything new into the scene. That's why people are angry.
I thought we all knew this is the way it was going to be. As in we knew there would be less money for the Korean leagues as Blizzard took over and Koreans would flock to other Prelims. Not like we aren't familiar with how Blizzard operates. We've seen it ourselves. ;/
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
Quite, people want to complain that Blizzard isn't dumping money into Korea for being so good at SC2. That's how you grow support for it world wide, make sure the region that is the strongest is stronger and force the other regions to catch up. No regional leagues for anyone, just tickets for flights to Korea for players so they can practice.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
Why do we care what teams and afford can and can't afford? And if we are going to talk about affirmative action, lets talk about the Kespa and ESF only brackets for MLG qualifiers to assure they can bypass the open bracket. And lets make sure they only play against their own group, because it would be unfair if Kespa players were eliminated by ESF players. Because we can't have Flash going through the open bracket like Violet and Polt, that would be to taxing on him.
There is enough BS seeds and special brackets for Korean players in the past for NA leagues. Heave forbid that one NA league provide some level of support for people in their own region.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
Why do we care what teams and afford can and can't afford? And if we are going to talk about affirmative action, lets talk about the Kespa and ESF only brackets for MLG qualifiers to assure they can bypass the open bracket. And lets make sure they only play against their own group, because it would be unfair if Kespa players were eliminated by ESF players. Because we can't have Flash going through the open bracket like Violet and Polt, that would be to taxing on him.
There is enough BS seeds and special brackets for Korean players in the past for NA leagues. Heave forbid that one NA league provide some level of support for people in their own region.
So is it a free system where anyone can play anywhere they want, or is it a system where NA players are supported, ie affirmative action, which is it?
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
Why do we care what teams and afford can and can't afford? And if we are going to talk about affirmative action, lets talk about the Kespa and ESF only brackets for MLG qualifiers to assure they can bypass the open bracket. And lets make sure they only play against their own group, because it would be unfair if Kespa players were eliminated by ESF players. Because we can't have Flash going through the open bracket like Violet and Polt, that would be to taxing on him.
There is enough BS seeds and special brackets for Korean players in the past for NA leagues. Heave forbid that one NA league provide some level of support for people in their own region.
So is it a free system where anyone can play anywhere they want, or is it a system where NA players are supported, ie affirmative action, which is it?
Its a system meant to support local players and provide them a venue to compete in their region, just like they said. There are open qualifiers after this first, super rushed season any anyone can try out for those. I guess you could see slots for local players as affirmative action if that how you want to view it. But the GSL would have them as well if they were not an already established league full of local players.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
Why do we care what teams and afford can and can't afford? And if we are going to talk about affirmative action, lets talk about the Kespa and ESF only brackets for MLG qualifiers to assure they can bypass the open bracket. And lets make sure they only play against their own group, because it would be unfair if Kespa players were eliminated by ESF players. Because we can't have Flash going through the open bracket like Violet and Polt, that would be to taxing on him.
There is enough BS seeds and special brackets for Korean players in the past for NA leagues. Heave forbid that one NA league provide some level of support for people in their own region.
So is it a free system where anyone can play anywhere they want, or is it a system where NA players are supported, ie affirmative action, which is it?
Your example of affirmative action is that NA players were seeded into the NA region. How dare they seed NA/EU players into the NA/EU regions ... the Koreans should feel lucky they were even given spots that were CARVED out for them in other regions.
The prize pool is way too low, especially for Korean players, why bother being a Progamer if you don't win enough money. Blizard badly needs to organise more Non-WCS tournements (in the DreamHack or NASL logic) to raise to total prize pool, paybe even doing other leagues.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
Why do we care what teams and afford can and can't afford? And if we are going to talk about affirmative action, lets talk about the Kespa and ESF only brackets for MLG qualifiers to assure they can bypass the open bracket. And lets make sure they only play against their own group, because it would be unfair if Kespa players were eliminated by ESF players. Because we can't have Flash going through the open bracket like Violet and Polt, that would be to taxing on him.
There is enough BS seeds and special brackets for Korean players in the past for NA leagues. Heave forbid that one NA league provide some level of support for people in their own region.
So is it a free system where anyone can play anywhere they want, or is it a system where NA players are supported, ie affirmative action, which is it?
Your example of affirmative action is that NA players were seeded into the NA region. How dare they seed NA/EU players into the NA/EU regions ... the Koreans should feel lucky they were even given spots that were CARVED out for them in other regions.
Well, my issue doesn't have anything to do with seeding or region locking. I call it affirmative action due to the equal prize pools. I would have no problem with a hard region lock if the prize pool for NA/EU was 33% of KR's prizepool (you can give EU a bit more if you want). That would be a fair system. As it stands now, the equal prize pool causes this affirmative action for foreigners in terms of prize money and I see it as charity money for them.
However, I will say that EU will benefit more from this due to the lack of koreans playing in that region. Though the reason for so many KRs in the NA scene besides the obvious reason of better lag is due to foreign teams bringing them over. 95% of the KRs playing are on foreign teams, so it's the foreign teams causing the korean invasion of NA themselves. Without the foreign team krs, then WCS NA would look similar to WCS EU in terms of koreans.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
Why do we care what teams and afford can and can't afford? And if we are going to talk about affirmative action, lets talk about the Kespa and ESF only brackets for MLG qualifiers to assure they can bypass the open bracket. And lets make sure they only play against their own group, because it would be unfair if Kespa players were eliminated by ESF players. Because we can't have Flash going through the open bracket like Violet and Polt, that would be to taxing on him.
There is enough BS seeds and special brackets for Korean players in the past for NA leagues. Heave forbid that one NA league provide some level of support for people in their own region.
So is it a free system where anyone can play anywhere they want, or is it a system where NA players are supported, ie affirmative action, which is it?
Your example of affirmative action is that NA players were seeded into the NA region. How dare they seed NA/EU players into the NA/EU regions ... the Koreans should feel lucky they were even given spots that were CARVED out for them in other regions.
So they're league system is demolished and they're lucky that there's a replacement?
On April 18 2013 00:07 Branman wrote: EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
To make this example work, you have to include the change that now all the leagues in the world have the same prize pool, half of the Premier League games are removed and European Leagues are just a qualifier for the Club World Cup.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
Why do we care what teams and afford can and can't afford? And if we are going to talk about affirmative action, lets talk about the Kespa and ESF only brackets for MLG qualifiers to assure they can bypass the open bracket. And lets make sure they only play against their own group, because it would be unfair if Kespa players were eliminated by ESF players. Because we can't have Flash going through the open bracket like Violet and Polt, that would be to taxing on him.
There is enough BS seeds and special brackets for Korean players in the past for NA leagues. Heave forbid that one NA league provide some level of support for people in their own region.
So is it a free system where anyone can play anywhere they want, or is it a system where NA players are supported, ie affirmative action, which is it?
Your example of affirmative action is that NA players were seeded into the NA region. How dare they seed NA/EU players into the NA/EU regions ... the Koreans should feel lucky they were even given spots that were CARVED out for them in other regions.
So they're league system is demolished and they're lucky that there's a replacement?
On April 18 2013 00:07 Branman wrote: EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
To make this example work, you have to include the change that now all the leagues in the world have the same prize pool, half of the Premier League games are removed and European Leagues are just a qualifier for the Club World Cup.
Is that what I said? No. Some of you guys just seem like you want the foreign scene to starve and cease existing =\
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
Why do we care what teams and afford can and can't afford? And if we are going to talk about affirmative action, lets talk about the Kespa and ESF only brackets for MLG qualifiers to assure they can bypass the open bracket. And lets make sure they only play against their own group, because it would be unfair if Kespa players were eliminated by ESF players. Because we can't have Flash going through the open bracket like Violet and Polt, that would be to taxing on him.
There is enough BS seeds and special brackets for Korean players in the past for NA leagues. Heave forbid that one NA league provide some level of support for people in their own region.
So is it a free system where anyone can play anywhere they want, or is it a system where NA players are supported, ie affirmative action, which is it?
Your example of affirmative action is that NA players were seeded into the NA region. How dare they seed NA/EU players into the NA/EU regions ... the Koreans should feel lucky they were even given spots that were CARVED out for them in other regions.
So they're league system is demolished and they're lucky that there's a replacement?
On April 18 2013 00:07 Branman wrote: EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
To make this example work, you have to include the change that now all the leagues in the world have the same prize pool, half of the Premier League games are removed and European Leagues are just a qualifier for the Club World Cup.
Is that what I said? No. Some of you guys just seem like you want the foreign scene to starve and cease existing =\
Yes, it is. You said that they should feel lucky. And they just lost half of their leagues and prize money.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
The community has said that foreigners should just buck up and move to Korea if they want to be relevant. This is said with little regard to the actual costs of doing that or the culture shock. Suddenly there's an incentive for Koreans to move to NA/EU and there's outrage over that? The answer as to why lots of foreigners don't live in Seoul and participate in the Code A qualifiers is that it's freakin' expensive to do, yet no one seemed to care about cost and feasibility while shouting down seeds given to foreign major tournament winners (an actual incentive to get people to move to Korea).
Seriously, it's a double standard. The community was all about the old system which demanded that people move to Korea, and now they are upset about a system that encourages Koreans to move to a different continent? Why should Koreans have the privilege of not having to move to a foreign country and culture to make a living in SC2 when that's exactly what the community demanded of foreign progamers?
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
Why do we care what teams and afford can and can't afford? And if we are going to talk about affirmative action, lets talk about the Kespa and ESF only brackets for MLG qualifiers to assure they can bypass the open bracket. And lets make sure they only play against their own group, because it would be unfair if Kespa players were eliminated by ESF players. Because we can't have Flash going through the open bracket like Violet and Polt, that would be to taxing on him.
There is enough BS seeds and special brackets for Korean players in the past for NA leagues. Heave forbid that one NA league provide some level of support for people in their own region.
So is it a free system where anyone can play anywhere they want, or is it a system where NA players are supported, ie affirmative action, which is it?
Your example of affirmative action is that NA players were seeded into the NA region. How dare they seed NA/EU players into the NA/EU regions ... the Koreans should feel lucky they were even given spots that were CARVED out for them in other regions.
So they're league system is demolished and they're lucky that there's a replacement?
On April 18 2013 00:07 Branman wrote: EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
To make this example work, you have to include the change that now all the leagues in the world have the same prize pool, half of the Premier League games are removed and European Leagues are just a qualifier for the Club World Cup.
Is that what I said? No. Some of you guys just seem like you want the foreign scene to starve and cease existing =\
Yes, it is. You said that they should feel lucky. And they just lost half of their leagues and prize money.
Just go back a few pages and read where people have broken down that they actually don't lose much if anything at all money wise. The "leagues" are still there.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
The community has said that foreigners should just buck up and move to Korea if they want to be relevant. This is said with little regard to the actual costs of doing that or the culture shock. Suddenly there's an incentive for Koreans to move to NA/EU and there's outrage over that? The answer as to why lots of foreigners don't live in Seoul and participate in the Code A qualifiers is that it's freakin' expensive to do, yet no one seemed to care about cost and feasibility while shouting down seeds given to foreign major tournament winners (an actual incentive to get people to move to Korea).
Seriously, it's a double standard. The community was all about the old system which demanded that people move to Korea, and now they are upset about a system that encourages Koreans to move to a different continent? Why should Koreans have the privilege of not having to move to a foreign country and culture to make a living in SC2 when that's exactly what the community demanded of foreign progamers?
Because they're better. Just like it's okay to "force" the best soccer players to move to Europe but it would be stupid to force European leagues to have the same prize pool as African leagues and now some of the best soccer players have to play in Botswana.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
Why do we care what teams and afford can and can't afford? And if we are going to talk about affirmative action, lets talk about the Kespa and ESF only brackets for MLG qualifiers to assure they can bypass the open bracket. And lets make sure they only play against their own group, because it would be unfair if Kespa players were eliminated by ESF players. Because we can't have Flash going through the open bracket like Violet and Polt, that would be to taxing on him.
There is enough BS seeds and special brackets for Korean players in the past for NA leagues. Heave forbid that one NA league provide some level of support for people in their own region.
So is it a free system where anyone can play anywhere they want, or is it a system where NA players are supported, ie affirmative action, which is it?
Your example of affirmative action is that NA players were seeded into the NA region. How dare they seed NA/EU players into the NA/EU regions ... the Koreans should feel lucky they were even given spots that were CARVED out for them in other regions.
So they're league system is demolished and they're lucky that there's a replacement?
On April 18 2013 00:07 Branman wrote: EDIT: Soccer example. I don't think Barcelona or a Brazilian club is worried about the LA Galaxy showing up to the club world cup and taking down large prize money.
To make this example work, you have to include the change that now all the leagues in the world have the same prize pool, half of the Premier League games are removed and European Leagues are just a qualifier for the Club World Cup.
Is that what I said? No. Some of you guys just seem like you want the foreign scene to starve and cease existing =\
Yes, it is. You said that they should feel lucky. And they just lost half of their leagues and prize money.
Just go back a few pages and read where people have broken down that they actually don't lose much if anything at all money wise. The "leagues" are still there.
No. There were supposed to be 4 or 5 GSLs and 2 OSLs, now there are 3 and 1, respectively.
On April 18 2013 05:04 Elairec wrote: They were already reducing the number of GSLs to 4, so they lose overall one tournament? That's cause for panic? Please...
One OSL too. That's a third of all individual tournaments. Would you like to have one third of all MLGs, NASLs, Dreamhacks and IEMs removed, and have the other ones be WCS qualifiers with smaller prize pools than before?
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
The community has said that foreigners should just buck up and move to Korea if they want to be relevant. This is said with little regard to the actual costs of doing that or the culture shock. Suddenly there's an incentive for Koreans to move to NA/EU and there's outrage over that? The answer as to why lots of foreigners don't live in Seoul and participate in the Code A qualifiers is that it's freakin' expensive to do, yet no one seemed to care about cost and feasibility while shouting down seeds given to foreign major tournament winners (an actual incentive to get people to move to Korea).
Seriously, it's a double standard. The community was all about the old system which demanded that people move to Korea, and now they are upset about a system that encourages Koreans to move to a different continent? Why should Koreans have the privilege of not having to move to a foreign country and culture to make a living in SC2 when that's exactly what the community demanded of foreign progamers?
Because they're better. Just like it's okay to "force" the best soccer players to move to Europe but it would be stupid to force European leagues to have the same prize pool as African leagues and now some of the best soccer players have to play in Botswana.
The problem with your example is that many soccer players in Europe aren't from Europe, and European clubs don't have the highest level of skill. All of the world-class Africans travel to Europe, but we don't complain that they are forced to go to where the money is. Brazilian teams are equal in skill (they've won more club world cups), but they make far less money than European clubs.
Hypothetical example: if the MLS made NFL-like money, then they would be able to pay their players salaries competitive with EU teams. Would you be very upset if EU players moved to the US to play in this league?
The fact is that for SC2, the money is in the Western scene. That's where the sponsors are. That's where the audience is. It's not the job of the Western audience to subsidize the Korean scene. If Koreans want to make more money playing Starcraft, they might want to move to the West.
EDIT: Correction to soccer analogy. Brazilian clubs have won comparable numbers of Club World Cups but don't have the same payout.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
The community has said that foreigners should just buck up and move to Korea if they want to be relevant. This is said with little regard to the actual costs of doing that or the culture shock. Suddenly there's an incentive for Koreans to move to NA/EU and there's outrage over that? The answer as to why lots of foreigners don't live in Seoul and participate in the Code A qualifiers is that it's freakin' expensive to do, yet no one seemed to care about cost and feasibility while shouting down seeds given to foreign major tournament winners (an actual incentive to get people to move to Korea).
Seriously, it's a double standard. The community was all about the old system which demanded that people move to Korea, and now they are upset about a system that encourages Koreans to move to a different continent? Why should Koreans have the privilege of not having to move to a foreign country and culture to make a living in SC2 when that's exactly what the community demanded of foreign progamers?
These are the weirdest complaints and TL really surprises me. Everyone blames Blizzard, when GOM also agreed to the terms as well so they could be on OGN. Also, Blizzard starts a local league that encourages top Korean players to come to NA and compete on a weekly basis, in our time zone at hours that are good for people watching in NA. The response to this is that people complain and freak out that the GSL was gutted(which isn't true, most players in GSL stayed). They provide an open bracket, which we all wanted at MLG.
At this point, I am sure that people would have complained no matter what Blizzard did. If they left GSL alone and made a separate league, people would have complain that GOM wasn't involved enough and players standing in GSL wasn't taken into account. If NA and EU were locked, then people would have called it welfare for bad players. There was no winning.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
The community has said that foreigners should just buck up and move to Korea if they want to be relevant. This is said with little regard to the actual costs of doing that or the culture shock. Suddenly there's an incentive for Koreans to move to NA/EU and there's outrage over that? The answer as to why lots of foreigners don't live in Seoul and participate in the Code A qualifiers is that it's freakin' expensive to do, yet no one seemed to care about cost and feasibility while shouting down seeds given to foreign major tournament winners (an actual incentive to get people to move to Korea).
Seriously, it's a double standard. The community was all about the old system which demanded that people move to Korea, and now they are upset about a system that encourages Koreans to move to a different continent? Why should Koreans have the privilege of not having to move to a foreign country and culture to make a living in SC2 when that's exactly what the community demanded of foreign progamers?
Because they're better. Just like it's okay to "force" the best soccer players to move to Europe but it would be stupid to force European leagues to have the same prize pool as African leagues and now some of the best soccer players have to play in Botswana.
The problem with your example is that many soccer players in Europe aren't from Europe, and European clubs don't have the highest level of skill. All of the world-class Africans travel to Europe, but we don't complain that they are forced to go to where the money is. Brazilian teams are equal in skill (they've won more club world cups), but they make far less money than European clubs.
That's bullshit, European clubs have the highest level of skill by a gigantic margin. The club world cup is about as important as the official baseball world championship.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: Hypothetical example: if the MLS made NFL-like money, then they would be able to pay their players salaries competitive with EU teams. Would you be very upset if EU players moved to the US to play in this league?
If it happened naturally? No. If FIFA just decided to remove a third of European Leagues, cut their prize pool in half and slap a huge prize on the MLS to make players leave Europe, then yes, of course I'd be upset.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: The fact is that for SC2, the money is in the Western scene. That's where the sponsors are. That's where the audience is. It's not the job of the Western audience to subsidize the Korean scene. If Koreans want to make more money playing Starcraft, they might want to move to the West.
This has absolutely nothing to do with sponsors. This is not GOM trying to adapt or Korean team sponsors wanting their teams to go to the USA. This was Blizzards decision.
Edit: By the way, just to clear this out, I'm not saying the WCS system is horrible or anything like that. I was initially just responding to people who were saying that there was absolutely no reason to be upset about anything so I wanted to say that I don't like the change that my favorite league is now occuring less often, with less great players and less prize money. That's all.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
The community has said that foreigners should just buck up and move to Korea if they want to be relevant. This is said with little regard to the actual costs of doing that or the culture shock. Suddenly there's an incentive for Koreans to move to NA/EU and there's outrage over that? The answer as to why lots of foreigners don't live in Seoul and participate in the Code A qualifiers is that it's freakin' expensive to do, yet no one seemed to care about cost and feasibility while shouting down seeds given to foreign major tournament winners (an actual incentive to get people to move to Korea).
Seriously, it's a double standard. The community was all about the old system which demanded that people move to Korea, and now they are upset about a system that encourages Koreans to move to a different continent? Why should Koreans have the privilege of not having to move to a foreign country and culture to make a living in SC2 when that's exactly what the community demanded of foreign progamers?
Because they're better. Just like it's okay to "force" the best soccer players to move to Europe but it would be stupid to force European leagues to have the same prize pool as African leagues and now some of the best soccer players have to play in Botswana.
The problem with your example is that many soccer players in Europe aren't from Europe, and European clubs don't have the highest level of skill. All of the world-class Africans travel to Europe, but we don't complain that they are forced to go to where the money is. Brazilian teams are equal in skill (they've won more club world cups), but they make far less money than European clubs.
That's bullshit, European clubs have the highest level of skill by a gigantic margin. The club world cup is about as important as the official baseball world championship.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: Hypothetical example: if the MLS made NFL-like money, then they would be able to pay their players salaries competitive with EU teams. Would you be very upset if EU players moved to the US to play in this league?
If it happened naturally? No. If FIFA just decided to remove a third of European Leagues, cut their prize pool in half and slap a huge prize on the MLS to make players leave Europe, then yes, of course I'd be upset.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: The fact is that for SC2, the money is in the Western scene. That's where the sponsors are. That's where the audience is. It's not the job of the Western audience to subsidize the Korean scene. If Koreans want to make more money playing Starcraft, they might want to move to the West.
This has absolutely nothing to do with sponsors. This is not GOM trying to adapt or Korean team sponsors wanting their teams to go to the USA. This was Blizzards decision.
You don't get to look at the results of an official FIFA sanctioned event and claim that it's bullshit. It's literally designed to determine what the best club team is. Even discounting that, South American players are far more skillful than their European counterparts. Why should they have to move to Europe when their continent has all of the talent for soccer?
This has EVERYTHING to do with exposure. More people will buy SC2 in NA and EU than in Korea. It's pretty simple. If blizzard wants to sell commercials on their streams, then the audience will matter. You're going to get bigger audiences for NA/EU primetime than KR primetime. More than that: it's about the longevity of the scene. If the SC2 scene stays Korea-centric, then it fails as a global esport, and Western audiences and money will evaporate. The whole point of this is to break the Korea-centricity of the current scene.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
The community has said that foreigners should just buck up and move to Korea if they want to be relevant. This is said with little regard to the actual costs of doing that or the culture shock. Suddenly there's an incentive for Koreans to move to NA/EU and there's outrage over that? The answer as to why lots of foreigners don't live in Seoul and participate in the Code A qualifiers is that it's freakin' expensive to do, yet no one seemed to care about cost and feasibility while shouting down seeds given to foreign major tournament winners (an actual incentive to get people to move to Korea).
Seriously, it's a double standard. The community was all about the old system which demanded that people move to Korea, and now they are upset about a system that encourages Koreans to move to a different continent? Why should Koreans have the privilege of not having to move to a foreign country and culture to make a living in SC2 when that's exactly what the community demanded of foreign progamers?
Because they're better. Just like it's okay to "force" the best soccer players to move to Europe but it would be stupid to force European leagues to have the same prize pool as African leagues and now some of the best soccer players have to play in Botswana.
The problem with your example is that many soccer players in Europe aren't from Europe, and European clubs don't have the highest level of skill. All of the world-class Africans travel to Europe, but we don't complain that they are forced to go to where the money is. Brazilian teams are equal in skill (they've won more club world cups), but they make far less money than European clubs.
That's bullshit, European clubs have the highest level of skill by a gigantic margin. The club world cup is about as important as the official baseball world championship.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: Hypothetical example: if the MLS made NFL-like money, then they would be able to pay their players salaries competitive with EU teams. Would you be very upset if EU players moved to the US to play in this league?
If it happened naturally? No. If FIFA just decided to remove a third of European Leagues, cut their prize pool in half and slap a huge prize on the MLS to make players leave Europe, then yes, of course I'd be upset.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: The fact is that for SC2, the money is in the Western scene. That's where the sponsors are. That's where the audience is. It's not the job of the Western audience to subsidize the Korean scene. If Koreans want to make more money playing Starcraft, they might want to move to the West.
This has absolutely nothing to do with sponsors. This is not GOM trying to adapt or Korean team sponsors wanting their teams to go to the USA. This was Blizzards decision.
You don't get to look at the results of an official FIFA sanctioned event and claim that it's bullshit. It's literally designed to determine what the best club team is. Even discounting that, South American players are far more skillful than their European counterparts. Why should they have to move to Europe when their continent has all of the talent for soccer?
A) Yes, I do. No (and I mean absolutely no) soccer fan takes the Club WC seriously. It's like the NBA All Star Game. It's fun, but nobody cares about the results. More than that, a casual soccer fan wouldn't even know it existed.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
The community has said that foreigners should just buck up and move to Korea if they want to be relevant. This is said with little regard to the actual costs of doing that or the culture shock. Suddenly there's an incentive for Koreans to move to NA/EU and there's outrage over that? The answer as to why lots of foreigners don't live in Seoul and participate in the Code A qualifiers is that it's freakin' expensive to do, yet no one seemed to care about cost and feasibility while shouting down seeds given to foreign major tournament winners (an actual incentive to get people to move to Korea).
Seriously, it's a double standard. The community was all about the old system which demanded that people move to Korea, and now they are upset about a system that encourages Koreans to move to a different continent? Why should Koreans have the privilege of not having to move to a foreign country and culture to make a living in SC2 when that's exactly what the community demanded of foreign progamers?
Because they're better. Just like it's okay to "force" the best soccer players to move to Europe but it would be stupid to force European leagues to have the same prize pool as African leagues and now some of the best soccer players have to play in Botswana.
The problem with your example is that many soccer players in Europe aren't from Europe, and European clubs don't have the highest level of skill. All of the world-class Africans travel to Europe, but we don't complain that they are forced to go to where the money is. Brazilian teams are equal in skill (they've won more club world cups), but they make far less money than European clubs.
That's bullshit, European clubs have the highest level of skill by a gigantic margin. The club world cup is about as important as the official baseball world championship.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: Hypothetical example: if the MLS made NFL-like money, then they would be able to pay their players salaries competitive with EU teams. Would you be very upset if EU players moved to the US to play in this league?
If it happened naturally? No. If FIFA just decided to remove a third of European Leagues, cut their prize pool in half and slap a huge prize on the MLS to make players leave Europe, then yes, of course I'd be upset.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: The fact is that for SC2, the money is in the Western scene. That's where the sponsors are. That's where the audience is. It's not the job of the Western audience to subsidize the Korean scene. If Koreans want to make more money playing Starcraft, they might want to move to the West.
This has absolutely nothing to do with sponsors. This is not GOM trying to adapt or Korean team sponsors wanting their teams to go to the USA. This was Blizzards decision.
You don't get to look at the results of an official FIFA sanctioned event and claim that it's bullshit. It's literally designed to determine what the best club team is. Even discounting that, South American players are far more skillful than their European counterparts. Why should they have to move to Europe when their continent has all of the talent for soccer?
This has EVERYTHING to do with exposure. More people will buy SC2 in NA and EU than in Korea. It's pretty simple. If blizzard wants to sell commercials on their streams, then the audience will matter. You're going to get bigger audiences for NA/EU primetime than KR primetime. More than that: it's about the longevity of the scene. If the SC2 scene stays Korea-centric, then it fails as a global esport, and Western audiences and money will evaporate. The whole point of this is to break the Korea-centricity of the current scene.
Wait..your telling me that the reason that everyone is doing this is to sell ads and make money off of those ads? You mean Blizzard isn't doing trying to kill Esports in Korea, but tying to make money by marketing it to the largest group of people who bought SC2.
Thats, like, crazy man. Just crazy. Why would people want to move where the money is?
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
The community has said that foreigners should just buck up and move to Korea if they want to be relevant. This is said with little regard to the actual costs of doing that or the culture shock. Suddenly there's an incentive for Koreans to move to NA/EU and there's outrage over that? The answer as to why lots of foreigners don't live in Seoul and participate in the Code A qualifiers is that it's freakin' expensive to do, yet no one seemed to care about cost and feasibility while shouting down seeds given to foreign major tournament winners (an actual incentive to get people to move to Korea).
Seriously, it's a double standard. The community was all about the old system which demanded that people move to Korea, and now they are upset about a system that encourages Koreans to move to a different continent? Why should Koreans have the privilege of not having to move to a foreign country and culture to make a living in SC2 when that's exactly what the community demanded of foreign progamers?
Because they're better. Just like it's okay to "force" the best soccer players to move to Europe but it would be stupid to force European leagues to have the same prize pool as African leagues and now some of the best soccer players have to play in Botswana.
The problem with your example is that many soccer players in Europe aren't from Europe, and European clubs don't have the highest level of skill. All of the world-class Africans travel to Europe, but we don't complain that they are forced to go to where the money is. Brazilian teams are equal in skill (they've won more club world cups), but they make far less money than European clubs.
That's bullshit, European clubs have the highest level of skill by a gigantic margin. The club world cup is about as important as the official baseball world championship.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: Hypothetical example: if the MLS made NFL-like money, then they would be able to pay their players salaries competitive with EU teams. Would you be very upset if EU players moved to the US to play in this league?
If it happened naturally? No. If FIFA just decided to remove a third of European Leagues, cut their prize pool in half and slap a huge prize on the MLS to make players leave Europe, then yes, of course I'd be upset.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: The fact is that for SC2, the money is in the Western scene. That's where the sponsors are. That's where the audience is. It's not the job of the Western audience to subsidize the Korean scene. If Koreans want to make more money playing Starcraft, they might want to move to the West.
This has absolutely nothing to do with sponsors. This is not GOM trying to adapt or Korean team sponsors wanting their teams to go to the USA. This was Blizzards decision.
You don't get to look at the results of an official FIFA sanctioned event and claim that it's bullshit. It's literally designed to determine what the best club team is. Even discounting that, South American players are far more skillful than their European counterparts. Why should they have to move to Europe when their continent has all of the talent for soccer?
A) Yes, I do. No (and I mean absolutely no) soccer fan takes the Club WC seriously. It's like the NBA All Star Game. It's fun, but nobody cares about the results. More than that, a casual soccer fan wouldn't even know it existed.
B) South America doesn't have all of the talent.
Anyway, my point still stands. South America has a large preponderance of talent, but soccer fans aren't upset that they are forced to move to Europe to make more money than they could if they stayed home. We should see the same thing here. Koreans can make money in Korea, but they can also travel outside of Korea to make money where there is more exposure and money.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
The community has said that foreigners should just buck up and move to Korea if they want to be relevant. This is said with little regard to the actual costs of doing that or the culture shock. Suddenly there's an incentive for Koreans to move to NA/EU and there's outrage over that? The answer as to why lots of foreigners don't live in Seoul and participate in the Code A qualifiers is that it's freakin' expensive to do, yet no one seemed to care about cost and feasibility while shouting down seeds given to foreign major tournament winners (an actual incentive to get people to move to Korea).
Seriously, it's a double standard. The community was all about the old system which demanded that people move to Korea, and now they are upset about a system that encourages Koreans to move to a different continent? Why should Koreans have the privilege of not having to move to a foreign country and culture to make a living in SC2 when that's exactly what the community demanded of foreign progamers?
Because they're better. Just like it's okay to "force" the best soccer players to move to Europe but it would be stupid to force European leagues to have the same prize pool as African leagues and now some of the best soccer players have to play in Botswana.
The problem with your example is that many soccer players in Europe aren't from Europe, and European clubs don't have the highest level of skill. All of the world-class Africans travel to Europe, but we don't complain that they are forced to go to where the money is. Brazilian teams are equal in skill (they've won more club world cups), but they make far less money than European clubs.
That's bullshit, European clubs have the highest level of skill by a gigantic margin. The club world cup is about as important as the official baseball world championship.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: Hypothetical example: if the MLS made NFL-like money, then they would be able to pay their players salaries competitive with EU teams. Would you be very upset if EU players moved to the US to play in this league?
If it happened naturally? No. If FIFA just decided to remove a third of European Leagues, cut their prize pool in half and slap a huge prize on the MLS to make players leave Europe, then yes, of course I'd be upset.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: The fact is that for SC2, the money is in the Western scene. That's where the sponsors are. That's where the audience is. It's not the job of the Western audience to subsidize the Korean scene. If Koreans want to make more money playing Starcraft, they might want to move to the West.
This has absolutely nothing to do with sponsors. This is not GOM trying to adapt or Korean team sponsors wanting their teams to go to the USA. This was Blizzards decision.
You don't get to look at the results of an official FIFA sanctioned event and claim that it's bullshit. It's literally designed to determine what the best club team is. Even discounting that, South American players are far more skillful than their European counterparts. Why should they have to move to Europe when their continent has all of the talent for soccer?
A) Yes, I do. No (and I mean absolutely no) soccer fan takes the Club WC seriously. It's like the NBA All Star Game. It's fun, but nobody cares about the results. More than that, a casual soccer fan wouldn't even know it existed.
B) South America doesn't have all of the talent.
Anyway, my point still stands. South America has a large preponderance of talent, but soccer fans aren't upset that they are forced to move to Europe to make more money than they could if they stayed home. We should see the same thing here. Koreans can make money in Korea, but they can also travel outside of Korea to make money where there is more exposure and money.
The Boston Bruins has a single American player. The rest are not from the US and we are currently importing another Swedish player. Players move to new regions to make money in all competitive anything. There isn't some hockey mecca where all players reside and the US just dumps money into the region to promote the best players in the world. The players move to entertain the fans, not the other way around.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
The community has said that foreigners should just buck up and move to Korea if they want to be relevant. This is said with little regard to the actual costs of doing that or the culture shock. Suddenly there's an incentive for Koreans to move to NA/EU and there's outrage over that? The answer as to why lots of foreigners don't live in Seoul and participate in the Code A qualifiers is that it's freakin' expensive to do, yet no one seemed to care about cost and feasibility while shouting down seeds given to foreign major tournament winners (an actual incentive to get people to move to Korea).
Seriously, it's a double standard. The community was all about the old system which demanded that people move to Korea, and now they are upset about a system that encourages Koreans to move to a different continent? Why should Koreans have the privilege of not having to move to a foreign country and culture to make a living in SC2 when that's exactly what the community demanded of foreign progamers?
Because they're better. Just like it's okay to "force" the best soccer players to move to Europe but it would be stupid to force European leagues to have the same prize pool as African leagues and now some of the best soccer players have to play in Botswana.
The problem with your example is that many soccer players in Europe aren't from Europe, and European clubs don't have the highest level of skill. All of the world-class Africans travel to Europe, but we don't complain that they are forced to go to where the money is. Brazilian teams are equal in skill (they've won more club world cups), but they make far less money than European clubs.
That's bullshit, European clubs have the highest level of skill by a gigantic margin. The club world cup is about as important as the official baseball world championship.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: Hypothetical example: if the MLS made NFL-like money, then they would be able to pay their players salaries competitive with EU teams. Would you be very upset if EU players moved to the US to play in this league?
If it happened naturally? No. If FIFA just decided to remove a third of European Leagues, cut their prize pool in half and slap a huge prize on the MLS to make players leave Europe, then yes, of course I'd be upset.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: The fact is that for SC2, the money is in the Western scene. That's where the sponsors are. That's where the audience is. It's not the job of the Western audience to subsidize the Korean scene. If Koreans want to make more money playing Starcraft, they might want to move to the West.
This has absolutely nothing to do with sponsors. This is not GOM trying to adapt or Korean team sponsors wanting their teams to go to the USA. This was Blizzards decision.
You don't get to look at the results of an official FIFA sanctioned event and claim that it's bullshit. It's literally designed to determine what the best club team is. Even discounting that, South American players are far more skillful than their European counterparts. Why should they have to move to Europe when their continent has all of the talent for soccer?
A) Yes, I do. No (and I mean absolutely no) soccer fan takes the Club WC seriously. It's like the NBA All Star Game. It's fun, but nobody cares about the results. More than that, a casual soccer fan wouldn't even know it existed.
B) South America doesn't have all of the talent.
Anyway, my point still stands. South America has a large preponderance of talent, but soccer fans aren't upset that they are forced to move to Europe to make more money than they could if they stayed home. We should see the same thing here. Koreans can make money in Korea, but they can also travel outside of Korea to make money where there is more exposure and money.
You are very wrong. South America got a large talent pool but nothing compared to the European talent pool. If you were right there will only be SA players in the biggest league in EU and that is not the case. French/Italien/Spanish/english/german players are the main influx of players in the biggest leagues. Only the very best of of SA is coming to EU same with Asia and Africa.
Btw I also find it ironic that an American having a discussion about football/soccer with Europeans:D
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
The community has said that foreigners should just buck up and move to Korea if they want to be relevant. This is said with little regard to the actual costs of doing that or the culture shock. Suddenly there's an incentive for Koreans to move to NA/EU and there's outrage over that? The answer as to why lots of foreigners don't live in Seoul and participate in the Code A qualifiers is that it's freakin' expensive to do, yet no one seemed to care about cost and feasibility while shouting down seeds given to foreign major tournament winners (an actual incentive to get people to move to Korea).
Seriously, it's a double standard. The community was all about the old system which demanded that people move to Korea, and now they are upset about a system that encourages Koreans to move to a different continent? Why should Koreans have the privilege of not having to move to a foreign country and culture to make a living in SC2 when that's exactly what the community demanded of foreign progamers?
Because they're better. Just like it's okay to "force" the best soccer players to move to Europe but it would be stupid to force European leagues to have the same prize pool as African leagues and now some of the best soccer players have to play in Botswana.
The problem with your example is that many soccer players in Europe aren't from Europe, and European clubs don't have the highest level of skill. All of the world-class Africans travel to Europe, but we don't complain that they are forced to go to where the money is. Brazilian teams are equal in skill (they've won more club world cups), but they make far less money than European clubs.
That's bullshit, European clubs have the highest level of skill by a gigantic margin. The club world cup is about as important as the official baseball world championship.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: Hypothetical example: if the MLS made NFL-like money, then they would be able to pay their players salaries competitive with EU teams. Would you be very upset if EU players moved to the US to play in this league?
If it happened naturally? No. If FIFA just decided to remove a third of European Leagues, cut their prize pool in half and slap a huge prize on the MLS to make players leave Europe, then yes, of course I'd be upset.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: The fact is that for SC2, the money is in the Western scene. That's where the sponsors are. That's where the audience is. It's not the job of the Western audience to subsidize the Korean scene. If Koreans want to make more money playing Starcraft, they might want to move to the West.
This has absolutely nothing to do with sponsors. This is not GOM trying to adapt or Korean team sponsors wanting their teams to go to the USA. This was Blizzards decision.
You don't get to look at the results of an official FIFA sanctioned event and claim that it's bullshit. It's literally designed to determine what the best club team is. Even discounting that, South American players are far more skillful than their European counterparts. Why should they have to move to Europe when their continent has all of the talent for soccer?
A) Yes, I do. No (and I mean absolutely no) soccer fan takes the Club WC seriously. It's like the NBA All Star Game. It's fun, but nobody cares about the results. More than that, a casual soccer fan wouldn't even know it existed.
B) South America doesn't have all of the talent.
Anyway, my point still stands. South America has a large preponderance of talent, but soccer fans aren't upset that they are forced to move to Europe to make more money than they could if they stayed home. We should see the same thing here. Koreans can make money in Korea, but they can also travel outside of Korea to make money where there is more exposure and money.
You are very wrong. South America got a large talent pool but nothing compared to the European talent pool. If you were right there will only be SA players in the biggest league in EU and that is not the case. French/Italien/Spanish/english/german players are the main influx of players in the biggest leagues. Only the very best of of SA is coming to EU same with Asia and Africa.
Btw I also find it ironic that an American having a discussion about football/soccer with Europeans:D
I also find that pretty amusing. From the discussions I have determined that South America and European regions have the best talent pool for football depending on who you ask. Also, if you don't agree with the person on where the talent pool is, you clearly no nothing about football.
The part that I find super funny is when people are shocked that players are moving to where the most money is. The US has been important the best athletes for years. We are of the opinion that it doesn't matter where your from as long as you play hard when your on my local team. And this wouldn't be the first time that a league used money to try and evenly distribute the talent pool across several areas to prevent on region/team from crushing every other region/team.
There's not affirmative action for foreigners. Everyone is free to enter whatever system they want. Koreans are entering both the NA and EU leagues. In fact, the entire point of this (as said by Blizzard in interviews) is to have the Koreans actually enter the foreign scene and take their infrastructure with them as they move abroad.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
The community has said that foreigners should just buck up and move to Korea if they want to be relevant. This is said with little regard to the actual costs of doing that or the culture shock. Suddenly there's an incentive for Koreans to move to NA/EU and there's outrage over that? The answer as to why lots of foreigners don't live in Seoul and participate in the Code A qualifiers is that it's freakin' expensive to do, yet no one seemed to care about cost and feasibility while shouting down seeds given to foreign major tournament winners (an actual incentive to get people to move to Korea).
Seriously, it's a double standard. The community was all about the old system which demanded that people move to Korea, and now they are upset about a system that encourages Koreans to move to a different continent? Why should Koreans have the privilege of not having to move to a foreign country and culture to make a living in SC2 when that's exactly what the community demanded of foreign progamers?
Because they're better. Just like it's okay to "force" the best soccer players to move to Europe but it would be stupid to force European leagues to have the same prize pool as African leagues and now some of the best soccer players have to play in Botswana.
The problem with your example is that many soccer players in Europe aren't from Europe, and European clubs don't have the highest level of skill. All of the world-class Africans travel to Europe, but we don't complain that they are forced to go to where the money is. Brazilian teams are equal in skill (they've won more club world cups), but they make far less money than European clubs.
That's bullshit, European clubs have the highest level of skill by a gigantic margin. The club world cup is about as important as the official baseball world championship.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: Hypothetical example: if the MLS made NFL-like money, then they would be able to pay their players salaries competitive with EU teams. Would you be very upset if EU players moved to the US to play in this league?
If it happened naturally? No. If FIFA just decided to remove a third of European Leagues, cut their prize pool in half and slap a huge prize on the MLS to make players leave Europe, then yes, of course I'd be upset.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: The fact is that for SC2, the money is in the Western scene. That's where the sponsors are. That's where the audience is. It's not the job of the Western audience to subsidize the Korean scene. If Koreans want to make more money playing Starcraft, they might want to move to the West.
This has absolutely nothing to do with sponsors. This is not GOM trying to adapt or Korean team sponsors wanting their teams to go to the USA. This was Blizzards decision.
You don't get to look at the results of an official FIFA sanctioned event and claim that it's bullshit. It's literally designed to determine what the best club team is. Even discounting that, South American players are far more skillful than their European counterparts. Why should they have to move to Europe when their continent has all of the talent for soccer?
A) Yes, I do. No (and I mean absolutely no) soccer fan takes the Club WC seriously. It's like the NBA All Star Game. It's fun, but nobody cares about the results. More than that, a casual soccer fan wouldn't even know it existed.
B) South America doesn't have all of the talent.
Anyway, my point still stands. South America has a large preponderance of talent, but soccer fans aren't upset that they are forced to move to Europe to make more money than they could if they stayed home. We should see the same thing here. Koreans can make money in Korea, but they can also travel outside of Korea to make money where there is more exposure and money.
You are very wrong. South America got a large talent pool but nothing compared to the European talent pool. If you were right there will only be SA players in the biggest league in EU and that is not the case. French/Italien/Spanish/english/german players are the main influx of players in the biggest leagues. Only the very best of of SA is coming to EU same with Asia and Africa.
Btw I also find it ironic that an American having a discussion about football/soccer with Europeans:D
I figured that you wouldn't know much about the NHL which is a better example as Plansix just said. Not a knock, but most Americans don't know much about the NHL either. Hockey is a 2nd rate sport these days.
I didn't say that it would only be SA players, but that there would be a large amount of them moving for monetary reasons. The point is that we don't get upset about athletes moving from their home countries for monetary reasons in any other sport, why are we suddenly upset about it for SC2? Don't think that these players are moving to Europe because "that's where the best skill is." They are moving because that's where the money and audience is.
Every single sport in history reaches the point where its homeland is no longer the center of that sport's world. Example: the center of football in America has migrated from the midwest to the southeast, and we have players from the midwest lining up to play in the southeastern league. This is also starting to happen in baseball where some of the best talent is coming from the Caribbean, and Japan has some really solid players.
There is affirmative action. Koreans aren't free to go where they want, only those on foreigner teams can afford to for the most part.
Not to mention 24 players were seeded directly into the premiere leagues, and the majority of seeds were given to non-koreans. People like hellokitty and maker got seeds over much much better Korean players. If that isn't affirmative action, I don't know what is.
The community has said that foreigners should just buck up and move to Korea if they want to be relevant. This is said with little regard to the actual costs of doing that or the culture shock. Suddenly there's an incentive for Koreans to move to NA/EU and there's outrage over that? The answer as to why lots of foreigners don't live in Seoul and participate in the Code A qualifiers is that it's freakin' expensive to do, yet no one seemed to care about cost and feasibility while shouting down seeds given to foreign major tournament winners (an actual incentive to get people to move to Korea).
Seriously, it's a double standard. The community was all about the old system which demanded that people move to Korea, and now they are upset about a system that encourages Koreans to move to a different continent? Why should Koreans have the privilege of not having to move to a foreign country and culture to make a living in SC2 when that's exactly what the community demanded of foreign progamers?
Because they're better. Just like it's okay to "force" the best soccer players to move to Europe but it would be stupid to force European leagues to have the same prize pool as African leagues and now some of the best soccer players have to play in Botswana.
The problem with your example is that many soccer players in Europe aren't from Europe, and European clubs don't have the highest level of skill. All of the world-class Africans travel to Europe, but we don't complain that they are forced to go to where the money is. Brazilian teams are equal in skill (they've won more club world cups), but they make far less money than European clubs.
That's bullshit, European clubs have the highest level of skill by a gigantic margin. The club world cup is about as important as the official baseball world championship.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: Hypothetical example: if the MLS made NFL-like money, then they would be able to pay their players salaries competitive with EU teams. Would you be very upset if EU players moved to the US to play in this league?
If it happened naturally? No. If FIFA just decided to remove a third of European Leagues, cut their prize pool in half and slap a huge prize on the MLS to make players leave Europe, then yes, of course I'd be upset.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: The fact is that for SC2, the money is in the Western scene. That's where the sponsors are. That's where the audience is. It's not the job of the Western audience to subsidize the Korean scene. If Koreans want to make more money playing Starcraft, they might want to move to the West.
This has absolutely nothing to do with sponsors. This is not GOM trying to adapt or Korean team sponsors wanting their teams to go to the USA. This was Blizzards decision.
You don't get to look at the results of an official FIFA sanctioned event and claim that it's bullshit. It's literally designed to determine what the best club team is. Even discounting that, South American players are far more skillful than their European counterparts. Why should they have to move to Europe when their continent has all of the talent for soccer?
A) Yes, I do. No (and I mean absolutely no) soccer fan takes the Club WC seriously. It's like the NBA All Star Game. It's fun, but nobody cares about the results. More than that, a casual soccer fan wouldn't even know it existed.
B) South America doesn't have all of the talent.
Anyway, my point still stands. South America has a large preponderance of talent, but soccer fans aren't upset that they are forced to move to Europe to make more money than they could if they stayed home. We should see the same thing here. Koreans can make money in Korea, but they can also travel outside of Korea to make money where there is more exposure and money.
You are very wrong. South America got a large talent pool but nothing compared to the European talent pool. If you were right there will only be SA players in the biggest league in EU and that is not the case. French/Italien/Spanish/english/german players are the main influx of players in the biggest leagues. Only the very best of of SA is coming to EU same with Asia and Africa.
Btw I also find it ironic that an American having a discussion about football/soccer with Europeans:D
I also find that pretty amusing. From the discussions I have determined that South America and European regions have the best talent pool for football depending on who you ask. Also, if you don't agree with the person on where the talent pool is, you clearly no nothing about football.
The part that I find super funny is when people are shocked that players are moving to where the most money is. The US has been important the best athletes for years. We are of the opinion that it doesn't matter where your from as long as you play hard when your on my local team. And this wouldn't be the first time that a league used money to try and evenly distribute the talent pool across several areas to prevent on region/team from crushing every other region/team.
Dude, you're an American, it's soccer :p
Better phrasing "European Football" because there are many types of football of which American and Australian are the best types. :p
The community has said that foreigners should just buck up and move to Korea if they want to be relevant. This is said with little regard to the actual costs of doing that or the culture shock. Suddenly there's an incentive for Koreans to move to NA/EU and there's outrage over that? The answer as to why lots of foreigners don't live in Seoul and participate in the Code A qualifiers is that it's freakin' expensive to do, yet no one seemed to care about cost and feasibility while shouting down seeds given to foreign major tournament winners (an actual incentive to get people to move to Korea).
Seriously, it's a double standard. The community was all about the old system which demanded that people move to Korea, and now they are upset about a system that encourages Koreans to move to a different continent? Why should Koreans have the privilege of not having to move to a foreign country and culture to make a living in SC2 when that's exactly what the community demanded of foreign progamers?
Because they're better. Just like it's okay to "force" the best soccer players to move to Europe but it would be stupid to force European leagues to have the same prize pool as African leagues and now some of the best soccer players have to play in Botswana.
The problem with your example is that many soccer players in Europe aren't from Europe, and European clubs don't have the highest level of skill. All of the world-class Africans travel to Europe, but we don't complain that they are forced to go to where the money is. Brazilian teams are equal in skill (they've won more club world cups), but they make far less money than European clubs.
That's bullshit, European clubs have the highest level of skill by a gigantic margin. The club world cup is about as important as the official baseball world championship.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: Hypothetical example: if the MLS made NFL-like money, then they would be able to pay their players salaries competitive with EU teams. Would you be very upset if EU players moved to the US to play in this league?
If it happened naturally? No. If FIFA just decided to remove a third of European Leagues, cut their prize pool in half and slap a huge prize on the MLS to make players leave Europe, then yes, of course I'd be upset.
On April 18 2013 05:07 Branman wrote: The fact is that for SC2, the money is in the Western scene. That's where the sponsors are. That's where the audience is. It's not the job of the Western audience to subsidize the Korean scene. If Koreans want to make more money playing Starcraft, they might want to move to the West.
This has absolutely nothing to do with sponsors. This is not GOM trying to adapt or Korean team sponsors wanting their teams to go to the USA. This was Blizzards decision.
You don't get to look at the results of an official FIFA sanctioned event and claim that it's bullshit. It's literally designed to determine what the best club team is. Even discounting that, South American players are far more skillful than their European counterparts. Why should they have to move to Europe when their continent has all of the talent for soccer?
A) Yes, I do. No (and I mean absolutely no) soccer fan takes the Club WC seriously. It's like the NBA All Star Game. It's fun, but nobody cares about the results. More than that, a casual soccer fan wouldn't even know it existed.
B) South America doesn't have all of the talent.
Anyway, my point still stands. South America has a large preponderance of talent, but soccer fans aren't upset that they are forced to move to Europe to make more money than they could if they stayed home. We should see the same thing here. Koreans can make money in Korea, but they can also travel outside of Korea to make money where there is more exposure and money.
You are very wrong. South America got a large talent pool but nothing compared to the European talent pool. If you were right there will only be SA players in the biggest league in EU and that is not the case. French/Italien/Spanish/english/german players are the main influx of players in the biggest leagues. Only the very best of of SA is coming to EU same with Asia and Africa.
Btw I also find it ironic that an American having a discussion about football/soccer with Europeans:D
I also find that pretty amusing. From the discussions I have determined that South America and European regions have the best talent pool for football depending on who you ask. Also, if you don't agree with the person on where the talent pool is, you clearly no nothing about football.
The part that I find super funny is when people are shocked that players are moving to where the most money is. The US has been important the best athletes for years. We are of the opinion that it doesn't matter where your from as long as you play hard when your on my local team. And this wouldn't be the first time that a league used money to try and evenly distribute the talent pool across several areas to prevent on region/team from crushing every other region/team.
Dude, you're an American, it's soccer :p
Better phrasing "European Football" because there are many types of football of which American and Australian are the best types. :p
Quite, you blow my cover! I am trying to speak to them about soccerball and the massive conflict as to which region has the larger number of talented players compared to the other regions with another amount of talent players. From my careful study, either one or both regions has a metric butt ton of talent players, while other other region has just a single ass load. Also, apparently their systems both support and discourage diversity while also supporting the best teams and the worst teams with and without welfare.
On April 18 2013 05:59 Branman wrote: The point is that we don't get upset about athletes moving from their home countries for monetary reasons in any other sport, why are we suddenly upset about it for SC2?
I assume that in most other sports the teams that these players move to from their home countries have the means to provide them with a great practice environment. I don't know how fair the comparison to sports like football really is, since all football teams practice together under the supervision of a coach. That's the thing. Not all teams have that kind of infrastructure in SC2, in fact do you know which ones do? The Korean ones.
It's really not a matter of "omg sellout", although it's very true that their motivation behind this *is* the money, but that's understandable. It's a matter of "by moving to NA/EU, their training will suffer greatly" which eventually leads to their skill stagnating or even dropping considerably (see Rain, PuMa etc)
On April 18 2013 05:59 Branman wrote: The point is that we don't get upset about athletes moving from their home countries for monetary reasons in any other sport, why are we suddenly upset about it for SC2?
I assume that in most other sports the teams that these players move to from their home countries have the means to provide them with a great practice environment. I don't know how fair the comparison to sports like football really is, since all football teams practice together under the supervision of a coach. That's the thing. Not all teams have that kind of infrastructure in SC2, in fact do you know which ones do? The Korean ones.
It's really not a matter of "omg sellout", although it's very true that their motivation behind this *is* the money, but that's understandable. It's a matter of "by moving to NA/EU, their training will suffer greatly" which eventually leads to their skill stagnating or even dropping considerably (see Rain, PuMa etc)
This. There's also the fact that the Korean leagues were crippled somewhat by this announcement, which is a little different than just providing opportunities outside of Korea.
On April 18 2013 05:59 Branman wrote: The point is that we don't get upset about athletes moving from their home countries for monetary reasons in any other sport, why are we suddenly upset about it for SC2?
I assume that in most other sports the teams that these players move to from their home countries have the means to provide them with a great practice environment. I don't know how fair the comparison to sports like football really is, since all football teams practice together under the supervision of a coach. That's the thing. Not all teams have that kind of infrastructure in SC2, in fact do you know which ones do? The Korean ones.
It's really not a matter of "omg sellout", although it's very true that their motivation behind this *is* the money, but that's understandable. It's a matter of "by moving to NA/EU, their training will suffer greatly" which eventually leads to their skill stagnating or even dropping considerably (see Rain, PuMa etc)
This. There's also the fact that the Korean leagues were crippled somewhat by this announcement, which is a little different than just providing opportunities outside of Korea.
Well the teams will learn to deal with it and overcome the problem of living in NA and keeping you skill up through practice. Polt has been able to remain competitive and Violet is pretty impressive as well, while both living in NA.
The simple fact is that there the NA scene is where a lot of the money is when it comes to sponsors and ad revenue. Blizzard has started a league in NA and give the Korean players and team the option to compete in that region. The Korean players and teams can either A: Come to the NA region, compete and figure out how to keep their practice up while they do it. Or B: let the NA players have the prize money and exposure. And the only reason Korean players and team are going to figure out that problem is if they would be stupid not to(ie, like the current WCS system). And they will figure it out, because it is in their best interest to do so.
Also, in response to Master's questions. NHL players move because of the money. They can practice anywhere there are good players and a hockey rink. Sometimes, they move because of the money and they like the fans or team. But mostly because of the money.
So if I understand correctly, the difference in format is that NA/EU Code A has less players, top 8 advance like GSL, but the losers of the first matches are not elimintated. Then, in the Up and Downs, the bottom 8 are eliminated there. This makes it less luck based so you don't get eliminated facing a korean in round 1 while someone else get's to face Hellokitty. Makes sense. However only changing 8 players every seasons makes it hard to break into.
As for the Korean chart, there's something there I don't get that I think is new.... it looks like there's a direct qualification into the Up and Down matches? "Top 2" from an open qualifier? Does that mean you can seed directly into Code S in a given season (albeit not easily)?
On April 17 2013 00:46 LighT. wrote: Biggest complaint: Theres no bias towards Korea although there should be a little bit of leverage towards them.
Exactly this, in both prize pool, but more importantly in qualification points and seasonal finals spots
Really should be top 8 korea, top 4 na, top 4 europe for seasonal and at least a 1.7x Kr 1.3x Eu 1.0x NA point bias or something.. Looking at the WCS Kr lineup makes the NA lineup look pathetic, it's sad these tournaments are held in equal weight, extremely poor design lol IDK what's the big deal about weighing regions when UEFA does the same for Champions League, the biggest "joint-league" tournament in the world for any sport ever.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
lol what? Actually it's more like tennis paying out the same prize pool for Wimbledon, Rolland Garros, the US Open and the Aus Open, which would make a lot of sense. Also, it's like having other, smaller tournaments pay out less money, while giving points to qualify for those few major tournaments.
lol, that's how tennis works, that's how this WCS system works. There are minor kinks, but the prize money is not bad, and the points system is good enough for the first season.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
lol what? Actually it's more like tennis paying out the same prize pool for Wimbledon, Rolland Garros, the US Open and the Aus Open, which would make a lot of sense. Also, it's like having other, smaller tournaments pay out less money, while giving points to qualify for those few major tournaments.
Huh you just named 4 tennis majors? Majors have all the top players going to them, whether it be tennis or golf. Tiger woods, federer etc don't go to all tournaments, but always go to the majors.
I don't consider WCS NA and WCS EU to be majors in terms of skill. It's artificially made into a "major" by blizzard with their prize pool. I think you're confusing prize pool in a tournament with skill. Last year WCS finals gave out 100k to the winner. Are you going to try to tell me that was the most skillful tournament because it had the highest prize pool for the year? The competition there was a farce and parting won it by beating only 1 kr.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
lol what? Actually it's more like tennis paying out the same prize pool for Wimbledon, Rolland Garros, the US Open and the Aus Open, which would make a lot of sense. Also, it's like having other, smaller tournaments pay out less money, while giving points to qualify for those few major tournaments.
Huh you just named 4 tennis majors? Majors have all the top players going to them, whether it be tennis or golf. Tiger woods, federer etc don't go to all tournaments, but always go to the majors.
I don't consider WCS NA and WCS EU to be majors in terms of skill. It's artificially made into a "major" by blizzard with their prize pool. I think you're confusing prize pool in a tournament with skill. Last year WCS finals gave out 100k to the winner. Are you going to try to tell me that was the most skillful tournament because it had the highest prize pool for the year? The competition there was a farce and parting won it by beating only 1 kr.
Who cares? Sadly Blizzard as not invented teleportation or cloning to solve your problem. All three leagues are happening in different regions, in different time zones. The best players cannot be three places at once to scoop up all the prize money. Because some of the matches will be held while they are sleeping, other players who might be less skills can win that tournament. So unless Flash, Life and Innovation learn to pull the trick from the Man of Steel, they will have to play in Korea.
I guess all events could change their rules where their prize pool was based directly on the number of Koreans that signed up if that would make you happy.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
lol what? Actually it's more like tennis paying out the same prize pool for Wimbledon, Rolland Garros, the US Open and the Aus Open, which would make a lot of sense. Also, it's like having other, smaller tournaments pay out less money, while giving points to qualify for those few major tournaments.
Huh you just named 4 tennis majors? Majors have all the top players going to them, whether it be tennis or golf. Tiger woods, federer etc don't go to all tournaments, but always go to the majors.
I don't consider WCS NA and WCS EU to be majors in terms of skill. It's artificially made into a "major" by blizzard with their prize pool. I think you're confusing prize pool in a tournament with skill. Last year WCS finals gave out 100k to the winner. Are you going to try to tell me that was the most skillful tournament because it had the highest prize pool for the year? The competition there was a farce and parting won it by beating only 1 kr.
I guess all events could change their rules where their prize pool was based directly on the number of Koreans that signed up if that would make you happy.
Yes, it would as I've already pointed out before, I would be completely fine with a hard region lock if the NA/EU prizepool was 33% of the KR one. Then the prizepool would reflect more appropriately on the skill level in it. That is how it works in other sports.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
lol what? Actually it's more like tennis paying out the same prize pool for Wimbledon, Rolland Garros, the US Open and the Aus Open, which would make a lot of sense. Also, it's like having other, smaller tournaments pay out less money, while giving points to qualify for those few major tournaments.
Huh you just named 4 tennis majors? Majors have all the top players going to them, whether it be tennis or golf. Tiger woods, federer etc don't go to all tournaments, but always go to the majors.
I don't consider WCS NA and WCS EU to be majors in terms of skill. It's artificially made into a "major" by blizzard with their prize pool. I think you're confusing prize pool in a tournament with skill. Last year WCS finals gave out 100k to the winner. Are you going to try to tell me that was the most skillful tournament because it had the highest prize pool for the year? The competition there was a farce and parting won it by beating only 1 kr.
I guess all events could change their rules where their prize pool was based directly on the number of Koreans that signed up if that would make you happy.
Yes, it would as I've already pointed out before, I would be completely fine with a hard region lock if the NA/EU prizepool was 33% of the KR one. Then the prizepool would reflect more appropriately on the skill level in it. That is how it works in other sports.
Yes, but those sports are far more established and have a bunch of different revenue sources coming in for both teams and players. That is not the case for most of the SC2 scene in NA and EU. And the league isn't about providing the players with prize money based on their skill level, it is entertainment. Providing sufficient prize money per region to attract skilled players and new potential talent to play in the event.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
lol what? Actually it's more like tennis paying out the same prize pool for Wimbledon, Rolland Garros, the US Open and the Aus Open, which would make a lot of sense. Also, it's like having other, smaller tournaments pay out less money, while giving points to qualify for those few major tournaments.
Huh you just named 4 tennis majors? Majors have all the top players going to them, whether it be tennis or golf. Tiger woods, federer etc don't go to all tournaments, but always go to the majors.
I don't consider WCS NA and WCS EU to be majors in terms of skill. It's artificially made into a "major" by blizzard with their prize pool. I think you're confusing prize pool in a tournament with skill. Last year WCS finals gave out 100k to the winner. Are you going to try to tell me that was the most skillful tournament because it had the highest prize pool for the year? The competition there was a farce and parting won it by beating only 1 kr.
Pretty much everything I say is opposite to that actually. Nobody should care about giving away 100k to first place. That's just retarded in itself and hurts stalls the growth of eSports.
These are the "majors", whether everyone else likes it or not, and the system is very similar to that of tennis and golf. The main difference is that eSports is trying to make the transition into being a stable field of work whereas tennis and golf are already established fields. Because if this, they region block the majors to help the growth of each region without hurting any other region.
I don't care how many people complain about how GSL got fucked over, because it didn't. You now have 1st and 2nd place making less money (but if you actually stop to think, you don't need more money than that if you're looking to make a nice living), and everyone else is making more money than before. Also, more people are making money than before.
Talking more about points, you don't need more Koreans to be seeded into the world finals. That would mean: 1) you'd have to give away even more money on the world finals which they don't want to. Reason for that is that the whole point of this system is to globalize the game. Giving all the money to Koreans doesn't benefit eSports as a whole. SO to give to people who need it more, they'd have to expand the prize pool which they can't/won't yet. 2) The Koreans that are on top are on top yo... They are the ones who are going to deserve the shot to make extra money. If you didn't acquire the points to be on top, they you don't get the shot to compete for the money!! The majority of the money still goes to the Koreans, since they will win the higher places in the world finals, BUT NA/EU need money too, so having them compete equally makes sense. Everyone earns money, Koreans earn more money. Everyone a likey yes?
I'm at work so I'm only using small breaks to make my replies, let me know what I didn't talk about and I'll give my response when I can.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
lol what? Actually it's more like tennis paying out the same prize pool for Wimbledon, Rolland Garros, the US Open and the Aus Open, which would make a lot of sense. Also, it's like having other, smaller tournaments pay out less money, while giving points to qualify for those few major tournaments.
Yeah, that's how it works in EU and NA, while in Korea, there are no other tournaments anymore.
On April 18 2013 03:44 Canucklehead wrote: This is like tennis paying out the same prize pool for winning a random tennis tournament and winning wimbledon or golf paying the same for a lesser golf tourney and the masters. Makes no sense, other than affirmative action for foreigners and giving them charity money.
lol what? Actually it's more like tennis paying out the same prize pool for Wimbledon, Rolland Garros, the US Open and the Aus Open, which would make a lot of sense. Also, it's like having other, smaller tournaments pay out less money, while giving points to qualify for those few major tournaments.
Yeah, that's how it works in EU and NA, while in Korea, there are no other tournaments anymore.
Erg what? Those tournaments are like DreamHack, NASL, Iron Squid, etc. which ofc Koreans will be playing.... I don't understand what misconception you're having to think that your statement is valid. On top of Koreans having every other tournament available to them, they also have PL which is pretty much Korean (KeSPA) only.
On April 19 2013 17:09 blackone wrote: What I'm saying is, that there are no Korean individual tournaments aside from the 3 WCS ones anymore. That's the truth without any misconception.
I can confirm this.
The only other tournaments they play are stuff like Acer Teamstory cup etc.
On April 19 2013 17:09 blackone wrote: What I'm saying is, that there are no Korean individual tournaments aside from the 3 WCS ones anymore. That's the truth without any misconception.
I can confirm this.
The only other tournaments they play are stuff like Acer Teamstory cup etc.
Well there must be a market for it. Grab ur chance!
On April 19 2013 17:09 blackone wrote: What I'm saying is, that there are no Korean individual tournaments aside from the 3 WCS ones anymore. That's the truth without any misconception.
So why did you quote me to post that? The info wasn't useful as a response to my post.
That's fine, I know that aside from GSL, there is no individual tournament in Korea. It's been like that for pretty much all of SC2 if you don't count the smaller semipro tournaments that were played occasionally.
Maybe you were trying to just point out that there is no more IPL? and that Koreans can't participate in MLG anymore (which won't be a big deal, and will probably do Koreans more good than bad). If so, then it's the same for NA and EU players. Everyone is in the same situation, so it's pretty bogus to bring it up as a point.
On April 19 2013 17:09 blackone wrote: What I'm saying is, that there are no Korean individual tournaments aside from the 3 WCS ones anymore. That's the truth without any misconception.
So why did you quote me to post that? The info wasn't useful as a response to my post.
That's fine, I know that aside from GSL, there is no individual tournament in Korea. It's been like that for pretty much all of SC2 if you don't count the smaller semipro tournaments that were played occasionally.
Maybe you were trying to just point out that there is no more IPL? and that Koreans can't participate in MLG anymore (which won't be a big deal, and will probably do Koreans more good than bad). If so, then it's the same for NA and EU players. Everyone is in the same situation, so it's pretty bogus to bring it up as a point.
Koreans can participate in MLG. I don't know why you think that. MLG events are completely independent of the WCS system just like Dreamhack or IEM.
On April 19 2013 17:09 blackone wrote: What I'm saying is, that there are no Korean individual tournaments aside from the 3 WCS ones anymore. That's the truth without any misconception.
So why did you quote me to post that? The info wasn't useful as a response to my post.
That's fine, I know that aside from GSL, there is no individual tournament in Korea. It's been like that for pretty much all of SC2 if you don't count the smaller semipro tournaments that were played occasionally.
Maybe you were trying to just point out that there is no more IPL? and that Koreans can't participate in MLG anymore (which won't be a big deal, and will probably do Koreans more good than bad). If so, then it's the same for NA and EU players. Everyone is in the same situation, so it's pretty bogus to bring it up as a point.
No, none of that, I'm pointing out that EU and NA gained tournaments, while Korea lost tournaments. That's what makes my previous statement valid and that's why I quoted you.
On April 19 2013 17:09 blackone wrote: What I'm saying is, that there are no Korean individual tournaments aside from the 3 WCS ones anymore. That's the truth without any misconception.
So why did you quote me to post that? The info wasn't useful as a response to my post.
That's fine, I know that aside from GSL, there is no individual tournament in Korea. It's been like that for pretty much all of SC2 if you don't count the smaller semipro tournaments that were played occasionally.
Maybe you were trying to just point out that there is no more IPL? and that Koreans can't participate in MLG anymore (which won't be a big deal, and will probably do Koreans more good than bad). If so, then it's the same for NA and EU players. Everyone is in the same situation, so it's pretty bogus to bring it up as a point.
No, none of that, I'm pointing out that EU and NA gained tournaments, while Korea lost tournaments. That's what makes my previous statement valid and that's why I quoted you.
Does anyone else feel like WCS is going to wind up being a massive flop? Like it is going to be an unnecessary extension of the GSL that separates the good players into 3 regions, but reducing the quality of the players who would wind up being at the end of a GSL? Meaning that at the end of the GSL the top players are in Code S, but with the finals of WCS the very top of the Korean talent will be represented for Korea, but the weaker Koreans in EU/NA will make it through because they're no longer forced to make it through GSL's lower leagues to get the top spot instead they can face a much weaker foreign talent pool. In the end many players who attempted to make it through the GSL who didn't make the cut and are probably better than the Koreans in EU/NA are left sitting on the bench? Also out of those Koreans who play in EU/NA if there are a few truly great players among them it also weakens the GSL because they're not there in the next season. Don't both tournaments then have an overall weaker quality of players which makes not only the WCS champ, but the GSL champ less prestigious? I'm not saying the winners are bad, but that the talent pool that they had to face is weaker because of this.
On April 26 2013 23:41 NoobSkills wrote: Does anyone else feel like WCS is going to wind up being a massive flop? Like it is going to be an unnecessary extension of the GSL that separates the good players into 3 regions, but reducing the quality of the players who would wind up being at the end of a GSL? Meaning that at the end of the GSL the top players are in Code S, but with the finals of WCS the very top of the Korean talent will be represented for Korea, but the weaker Koreans in EU/NA will make it through because they're no longer forced to make it through GSL's lower leagues to get the top spot instead they can face a much weaker foreign talent pool. In the end many players who attempted to make it through the GSL who didn't make the cut and are probably better than the Koreans in EU/NA are left sitting on the bench? Also out of those Koreans who play in EU/NA if there are a few truly great players among them it also weakens the GSL because they're not there in the next season. Don't both tournaments then have an overall weaker quality of players which makes not only the WCS champ, but the GSL champ less prestigious? I'm not saying the winners are bad, but that the talent pool that they had to face is weaker because of this.
I guess that could be one of many outcomes, but i don't think it is going to be bad. Blizzard, GOM, ELS and MLG will adjust and tweek WSC until it make sense. The whole diminishing player talent and loss of prestige are such abstract and subjective arguments that I don't really worry about them. As long as people are watching and there is a reason to play and win, the players will bring their A game.
On April 17 2013 00:46 LighT. wrote: Biggest complaint: Theres no bias towards Korea although there should be a little bit of leverage towards them.
One country gets 5 spots. NA has 35 countries. EU has 50 countries. Plus the random other countries in africa/asia/SEA. So like 100 countries get 10 spots.
Hmmm. Korea has no bias?
ON TOP of the fact that koreans are invited to premier leagues of NA and EU?
Dont look at it from a countries perspective. Look at it from the skill perspective. The top 100 players... like 90 of them are Korean. They're clearly deserving of more seeds.
You don't want to do that otherwise it will lead to a super-boring competition. Imagine if the world cup only had teams from Europe and South America and that each country could send multiple teams. Brazil II vs. Germany II would be a snoozer of a match because you know that they are the 'B' teams.
This has got to be the worst analogy ever. Just.. what?
I kinda wish KR offered a little more to win there, it will be a lot harder.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uZOMVuf.jpg?2)
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