WCS 2013 Format, Players, Prizes and Point Details - Page 16
Forum Index > SC2 General |
DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
| ||
Tsubbi
Germany7940 Posts
code s with the same price pool as eu/na events? no wonder they are furious. and every korean player is now in the unfortunate situation in which they have to constantly consider going to another region to compete on the other hand, upcoming eu and na players are just gonna get rolled by koreans, so our scenes arent getting boosted either seriously region locked wcs is the only logical thing they should do, with higher price pool in korea like its always been with code s | ||
Phantom_Sky
Hong Kong512 Posts
<--LMAO | ||
grs
Germany2339 Posts
Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000 So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue. Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us." Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here? | ||
Mirrikh
Romania105 Posts
For GSL you can expect the top players will not go down in first round so they are likely to end up making more money then the current GSL prize system allows them. | ||
grs
Germany2339 Posts
On April 17 2013 17:21 Mirrikh wrote: The calculations don't take into acount that top5/6 are qualified for season finals, which is at the minimum 5k more, also they take at least 500 points more. For GSL you can expect the top players will not go down in first round so they are likely to end up making more money then the current GSL prize system allows them. Yes, but that only adds to my point, no? Why such an outrage? | ||
Deathmanbob
United States2356 Posts
I like the prize pool im just sad that the winner at the end only gets 100 grand. You win the biggest tournament in the sc2 world and all you get is 2 NASL prize pools? (season 1 that is) | ||
thejamster
Canada71 Posts
| ||
grs
Germany2339 Posts
On April 17 2013 17:30 thejamster wrote: I'm confused. When blizz turned GSL into WCS did they also say that they were fronting all the prize money? Like is GOM no longer paying the players as well? As far as I got it, "GOM's money" was Blizzard's money before. | ||
Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On April 17 2013 17:28 Deathmanbob wrote: Anyone else just SLIGHTLY disappointed that Sc2 does not have a million dollar tourny? I get that Dota and LoL are team sports, so each player only gets 250k from the big win, but shit, why dont we even have that? I like the prize pool im just sad that the winner at the end only gets 100 grand. You win the biggest tournament in the sc2 world and all you get is 2 NASL prize pools? (season 1 that is) Lots of smaller prize pools are better than one big prize pool, every team that doesn't win the big tournament in Dota and LoL aren't making much in prize money. | ||
mikkmagro
Malta1513 Posts
On April 17 2013 17:18 grs wrote: Numbers from http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1 vs. Blizzard's announcement. Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000 So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue. Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us." Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here? What bloody cheek from Choya honestly. WCS NA and WCS EU are not replacing any Korean tournaments. Blizzard is not taking away any money from GSL, and putting it into WCS NA/EU, except for the Seasonal Finals, which will be dominated by top Koreans except for a couple of Europeans. Had Blizzard kept it region locked, as it was in 2012, they wouldn't even have the option to participate in foreign WCS regions, but now players who otherwise wouldn't have made it past Code A have a shot at it. Even without WCS, if you weren't the best in South Korea, you'd still be living off scraps. Now they have the option to participate in foreign regions so they can have a much easier route towards the money, why the hell is he whining. And it isn't exactly the same either, Challenger League in Korea is much, much more rewarding than challenger in EU/NA. | ||
Clefairy
1570 Posts
On April 17 2013 17:23 grs wrote: Yes, but that only adds to my point, no? Why such an outrage? You have to do more work to earn around the same amount or just a bit more or a lot less. Even if they earn more it's at the cost of one entire season of prize money less from the GSL and an entire separate tournament in the form of the OSL being merged into the GSL instead of being another opportunity like before. The Koreans were forced into this tournament because GSL got turned into WCS, instead of getting an additional tournament like the other regions. Now they earn less money up-front from the hardest tournament in the world, and have a chance of earning much less than before if they're unlucky or suffering from jet lag e.t.c at the season final. | ||
thepotatoman
United States73 Posts
On April 17 2013 17:18 grs wrote: Numbers from http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1 vs. Blizzard's announcement. Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000 So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue. Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us." Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here? So mostly they're getting more from WCS Korea than with GSL, not even counting the fact that koreans are taking the money of other regions as well? A hard region lock and a lopsided prize pool does make sense, but if Blizzard is making a business decision to grow esports in other nations by adding additional money to those scenes while not really taking money away from korea, who are they to feel entitled to that money as well. | ||
grs
Germany2339 Posts
On April 17 2013 17:46 Clefairy wrote: You have to do more work to earn around the same amount or just a bit more or a lot less. Even if they earn more it's at the cost of one entire season of prize money less from the GSL and an entire separate tournament in the form of the OSL being merged into the GSL instead of being another opportunity like before. The Koreans were forced into this tournament because GSL got turned into WCS, instead of getting an additional tournament like the other regions. Now they earn less money up-front from the hardest tournament in the world, and have a chance of earning much less than before if they're unlucky or suffering from jet lag e.t.c at the season final. I still don't get it. 2012: 5 Seasons of GSL x $112,551 = $562,755 Let's assume KR only takes 50% of the pricemoney in Season and Global finals (and we know it will be more): 2013: 1 GSL x $123,624 + 3 WCS KR x $100,000 + 3 Season Finals x $150,000 x 50% + 1 Global Final x $250,000 x 50% = $773,624 | ||
Coolhwip
Sweden1381 Posts
On April 17 2013 00:38 LighT. wrote: beat me to it. Cons: - They took away the prestige of GSL/OSL further by completely depleting the prize pool for 1st/2nd place. Winner receiving 20k is like nothing compared to last year... - Seasons Finals: 5/5/5 +1 format. It should have been biased more towards Korea than Europe/America Maybe something like 4/4/7+Parting, and then the next season: 4/4/8 5/5/5 +1 format is setting up for some cannon fodder for players like Life/Parting/Innovation/Flash against some of the lower NA/EU players More like 2/5/9 imo. Eu is miles ahead of america. Edit: This is ofc if the koreans werent alowed to play on EU/NA | ||
Goldfish
2230 Posts
In terms of maybe why BW is still doing better in South Korea compared to SC2: I think one of the major disappointing things in SC2 the lack of ability for a lot of units to be microed in the way like in BW. Like dancing Mutalisks back and forth for example (how you can move back and forth with a unit without losing speed/acceleration while they attack or drop, like with Mutalisk, Vultures, and Shuttles + Reavers). (I say "dance" instead of "moveshot" because when people say or think of moveshot, they think simply just attacking and moving at the same time "but" that's only one part of it. When you moveshot, you simply order a unit to attack something, then you quickly order the unit to move. Dancing around, is more complicated than that because it requires you to attack the units directly, or you need to make sure the unit is facing the target before you issue an attack move/hold position or else the unit will slow down before attacking. In terms of patrol micro, you need to gauge the distant between your mutalisks and your opponent's scourge before using patrol, then once you patrol, you need to immediately move the same direction your Mutalisks were already moving.) When you see something like this, you probably would want to like to have it in the sequel too: + Show Spoiler + Not a lot of people care about sc2 in Korea than people think, staying away because its not "original" and "easy"..at least speaking to my relatives/cousins etc. Your relatives I bet get stomped on the ladder and complain that it's too easy. I say the whole easy vs harder debate leads to the wrong conclusion of what is actually missing with SC2 from BW. I say both SC2 and BW have relatively the same "skill ceiling" (in the sense it's hard to be the top player - Players have proven there is a skill gap and a skill ceiling, like with Life and MVP [During MVP's prime]). What SC2 lacks compared to BW is more ways to micro individual units (and lots of players liked playing with a small group of individual units and doing fancy things with them), which is more of a "skill room" thing (well not sure if that's an accurate way of saying it). Here is an analogy I made with Chess Boxing (as "skill ceiling" vs just a bigger "skill room") + Show Spoiler + An analogy is BW is like Chess boxing while SC2 is boxing "or" chess by itself (but not both). The skill ceiling is potentially the same but the skill room is different (bigger in BW). In Chess boxing, you can win as long as you can dominate in either chess or boxing, if you can do both that's great. If you're not good at chess but good at boxing, you may still have a chance to win (for example). (I use "skill room" instead of skill ceiling because using skill ceiling alone may be deceiving and may not shed light on the potential problems of a game. Technically, you can say the skill ceiling of Chess Boxing is higher than chess or boxing individually but saying skill room to focus on the fact that there are multiple ways to win is easier to understand IMO.) Now, the issue isn't "SC2 isn't hard enough", it's "you can only play a certain way to win SC2" compared to BW (in BW, you could win with a lot of games by just controlling your units better than your opponent). (That's also why I think Flash, out of TBLS, is doing the best in SC2. Flash is most known for his game sense rather than his mechanics in BW compared to the other 3. And in SC2, game sense and strategy matters more than how well you control you can micro your units, which is potential why Bisu, Jaedong, and Stork aren't doing as well as Flash... of course it could be because Flash is just Flash.) The point isn't that BW is hard though. The point is that BW had more ways to use/control your units (and more ways to have fun) than in SC2. And that point isn't just about any micro trick (using your Widow Mines and switching targets back and forth quickly to hold fire isn't very fun or practical for example). It's how units like Mutalisk could be microed (which were actually easy to pull off, very practical to use, and satisfying and fun to pull off correctly). I really think that simply adding in some form of moveshot/dancing that is as similar to BW as possible (and adding the Reaver back) can really make SC2 that much of a better game. (Obviously some things, like using a unit far away in your control group to stack air units should be done in a different way.) That's one of the major differences between what you can do in BW compared to SC2, and I don't think it would be a big deal if they tried to add some form of that in SC2. Back to the BW vs SC2 in terms of difficulty discussion again - I say the only real hard thing (compared to SC2) in BW is the control groups being limited (to 12) and the fact you can't build stuff if you have 2 or more workers selected (and you can't shift/queue build with structures the same way you can in SC2). Things like lack of automine and multiple building select in BW is countered by macro mechanics in SC2 (larva injects, creep spreading, and making sure your structures are chrono boosted are acceptable replacements IMO). Things like being able to micro or dance your Mutalisk in BW isn't something that makes BW "harder", it makes the game better by allowing the player more ways to play the game their style. So, that's why I said saying SC2 is an easier game than BW is the wrong approach IMO. The only real "hard for the sake of being hard" things in BW is (again) the control groups and how workers can't build stuff if you have two or more selected. SC2 introduces a few macro mechanics for each race that counters the addition of automine and MBS, like managing your queen with larva injects (for example). On April 17 2013 18:00 grs wrote: I still don't get it. 2012: 5 Seasons of GSL x $112,551 = $562,755 Let's assume KR only takes 50% of the pricemoney in Season and Global finals (and we know it will be more): 2013: 1 GSL x $123,624 + 3 WCS KR x $100,000 + 3 Season Finals x $150,000 x 50% + 1 Global Final x $250,000 x 50% = $773,624 The major difference is that in 2012, Koreans could earn from the GSL "and" the WCS too. So 2012: 5 Seasons of GSL x $112,551 = $562,755 + $25,980 (WCS Korea) + $60k (WCS Asia) + $250,000 (WCS Global, though technically only 6 Koreans were in WCS but take note most of the meat of the money is to the top players, which all Koreans plus Sen got, with 3 Koreans in top 3, that's $156k to Koreans alone in that tournament) = at least that (if not more). Edit - I counted the money (just Koreans) earned from last WCS, and I'll add them here. WCS Korea (since it's Koreans only of course) is $25,980 + $45.6k out of $60k (from WCS Asia) and again $156k (from the 3 out of 4 Koreans in the top 4) from WCS Global. That's 227k Koreans earned from WCS (add that to the initial 562k from all GSLs that's 789 + 1 OSL ( $93,300 ) and that's 882k which is slightly higher than 773k this year). Okay, 882k compared to a 773k (which to be fair, may be higher depending on how many Koreans wins as you said). "However", you included the 2013 non-WCS GSL this year (which is $123,624 for Code S). Will that remain in 2014? If there will be 4 WCS events (or any combination of GSL and OSL) in 2014, then it's not really a big prize cut, true. | ||
DARKING
Mexico674 Posts
| ||
pms
Poland611 Posts
On April 17 2013 17:14 Tsubbi wrote: koreans are rightfully pissed, blizzard should have region locked this from the beginning, now its too late to go back i guess code s with the same price pool as eu/na events? no wonder they are furious. and every korean player is now in the unfortunate situation in which they have to constantly consider going to another region to compete on the other hand, upcoming eu and na players are just gonna get rolled by koreans, so our scenes arent getting boosted either seriously region locked wcs is the only logical thing they should do, with higher price pool in korea like its always been with code s I don't agree. Blizzard is doing the right thing. The idea is to balance all the regions, by giving equal incentives to all o them. Koreans won't get less money that they got last year... Check out other posts. | ||
MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On April 17 2013 18:11 Goldfish wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Edit - This post was meant to be on page 15 (though as I was writing it, it's on page 16 and people are now talking about the main topic against instead of SC2's status in South Korea >.>). In terms of maybe why BW is still doing better in South Korea compared to SC2: I think one of the major disappointing things in SC2 the lack of ability for a lot of units to be microed in the way like in BW. Like dancing Mutalisks back and forth for example (how you can move back and forth with a unit without losing speed/acceleration while they attack or drop, like with Mutalisk, Vultures, and Shuttles + Reavers). (I say "dance" instead of "moveshot" because when people say or think of moveshot, they think simply just attacking and moving at the same time "but" that's only one part of it. When you moveshot, you simply order a unit to attack something, then you quickly order the unit to move. Dancing around, is more complicated than that because it requires you to attack the units directly, or you need to make sure the unit is facing the target before you issue an attack move/hold position or else the unit will slow down before attacking. In terms of patrol micro, you need to gauge the distant between your mutalisks and your opponent's scourge before using patrol, then once you patrol, you need to immediately move the same direction your Mutalisks were already moving.) When you see something like this, you probably would want to like to have it in the sequel too: + Show Spoiler + Not a lot of people care about sc2 in Korea than people think, staying away because its not "original" and "easy"..at least speaking to my relatives/cousins etc. Your relatives I bet get stomped on the ladder and complain that it's too easy. I say the whole easy vs harder debate leads to the wrong conclusion of what is actually missing with SC2 from BW. I say both SC2 and BW have relatively the same "skill ceiling" (in the sense it's hard to be the top player - Players have proven there is a skill gap and a skill ceiling, like with Life and MVP [During MVP's prime]). What SC2 lacks compared to BW is more ways to micro individual units (and lots of players liked playing with a small group of individual units and doing fancy things with them), which is more of a "skill room" thing (well not sure if that's an accurate way of saying it). Here is an analogy I made with Chess Boxing (as "skill ceiling" vs just a bigger "skill room") + Show Spoiler + An analogy is BW is like Chess boxing while SC2 is boxing "or" chess by itself (but not both). The skill ceiling is potentially the same but the skill room is different (bigger in BW). In Chess boxing, you can win as long as you can dominate in either chess or boxing, if you can do both that's great. If you're not good at chess but good at boxing, you may still have a chance to win (for example). (I use "skill room" instead of skill ceiling because using skill ceiling alone may be deceiving and may not shed light on the potential problems of a game. Technically, you can say the skill ceiling of Chess Boxing is higher than chess or boxing individually but saying skill room to focus on the fact that there are multiple ways to win is easier to understand IMO.) Now, the issue isn't "SC2 isn't hard enough", it's "you can only play a certain way to win SC2" compared to BW (in BW, you could win with a lot of games by just controlling your units better than your opponent). (That's also why I think Flash, out of TBLS, is doing the best in SC2. Flash is most known for his game sense rather than his mechanics in BW compared to the other 3. And in SC2, game sense and strategy matters more than how well you control you can micro your units, which is potential why Bisu, Jaedong, and Stork aren't doing as well as Flash... of course it could be because Flash is just Flash.) The point isn't that BW is hard though. The point is that BW had more ways to use/control your units (and more ways to have fun) than in SC2. And that point isn't just about any micro trick (using your Widow Mines and switching targets back and forth quickly to hold fire isn't very fun or practical for example). It's how units like Mutalisk could be microed (which were actually easy to pull off, very practical to use, and satisfying and fun to pull off correctly). I really think that simply adding in some form of moveshot/dancing that is as similar to BW as possible (and adding the Reaver back) can really make SC2 that much of a better game. (Obviously some things, like using a unit far away in your control group to stack air units should be done in a different way.) That's one of the major differences between what you can do in BW compared to SC2, and I don't think it would be a big deal if they tried to add some form of that in SC2. Back to the BW vs SC2 in terms of difficulty discussion again - I say the only real hard thing (compared to SC2) in BW is the control groups being limited (to 12) and the fact you can't build stuff if you have 2 or more workers selected (and you can't shift/queue build with structures the same way you can in SC2). Things like lack of automine and multiple building select in BW is countered by macro mechanics in SC2 (larva injects, creep spreading, and making sure your structures are chrono boosted are acceptable replacements IMO). Things like being able to micro or dance your Mutalisk in BW isn't something that makes BW "harder", it makes the game better by allowing the player more ways to play the game their style. So, that's why I said saying SC2 is an easier game than BW is the wrong approach IMO. The only real "hard for the sake of being hard" things in BW is (again) the control groups and how workers can't build stuff if you have two or more selected. SC2 introduces a few macro mechanics for each race that counters the addition of automine and MBS, like managing your queen with larva injects (for example). While everything you say has already been said hundreds of times, there is definitely merit to this. But let me add another angle to it. SC2 is also too hard for the more casual players. So you have this weird situation where it doesn't have quite the same degree of depth that Brood War did in terms of what you can pull off in a game (such as the micro you were mentioning) that is satisfying for both player and spectator, and at the same time it's not as easy to get into as some other free to play games that have emerged recently. And even then, it doesn't do a great job with maintaining its player base, terrible BNet 2.0 and all that. It's ironic how initially people ragged on Blizzard for integrating Facebook into BNet 2.0, but we've come to the conclusion that the social aspect of the game is greatly lacking. And here's the thing, even if some would argue that there are still pretty awesome plays and memorable games being played quite frequently (which there are, no doubt about that), the fact remains that for a good year or so the game was pretty silly even at the top level, bad maps, bad builds, just poor play in general. A lot of the people who would most likely have embraced the game with open arms simply got tired of that and either remained with BW or moved on to newer, more casual games. | ||
Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
EDIT: Or the feared Korean-reign won´t happen because most will stay in Korea. | ||
| ||