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On April 17 2013 18:11 Goldfish wrote:[...] Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 18:00 grs wrote:On April 17 2013 17:46 Clefairy wrote:On April 17 2013 17:23 grs wrote:On April 17 2013 17:21 Mirrikh wrote:
The calculations don't take into acount that top5/6 are qualified for season finals, which is at the minimum 5k more, also they take at least 500 points more.
For GSL you can expect the top players will not go down in first round so they are likely to end up making more money then the current GSL prize system allows them. Yes, but that only adds to my point, no? Why such an outrage? You have to do more work to earn around the same amount or just a bit more or a lot less. Even if they earn more it's at the cost of one entire season of prize money less from the GSL and an entire separate tournament in the form of the OSL being merged into the GSL instead of being another opportunity like before. The Koreans were forced into this tournament because GSL got turned into WCS, instead of getting an additional tournament like the other regions. Now they earn less money up-front from the hardest tournament in the world, and have a chance of earning much less than before if they're unlucky or suffering from jet lag e.t.c at the season final. I still don't get it. 2012: 5 Seasons of GSL x $112,551 = $562,755 Let's assume KR only takes 50% of the pricemoney in Season and Global finals (and we know it will be more): 2013: 1 GSL x $123,624 + 3 WCS KR x $100,000 + 3 Season Finals x $150,000 x 50% + 1 Global Final x $250,000 x 50% = $773,624 The major difference is that in 2012, Koreans could earn from the GSL "and" the WCS too. So 2012: 5 Seasons of GSL x $112,551 = $562,755 + $25,980 (WCS Korea) + $60k (WCS Asia) + $250,000 (WCS Global, though technically only 6 Koreans were in WCS but take note most of the meat of the money is to the top players, which all Koreans plus Sen got, with 3 Koreans in top 3, that's $156k to Koreans alone in that tournament) = at least that (if not more). Edit - I counted the money (just Koreans) earned from last WCS, and I'll add them here. WCS Korea (since it's Koreans only of course) is $25,980 + $45.6k out of $60k (from WCS Asia) and again $156k (from the 3 out of 4 Koreans in the top 4) from WCS Global. That's 227k Koreans earned from WCS (add that to the initial 562k from all GSLs that's 789 + 1 OSL ( $93,300 ) and that's 882k which is slightly higher than 773k this year). Okay, 882k compared to a 773k (which to be fair, may be higher depending on how many Koreans wins as you said). "However", you included the 2013 non-WCS GSL this year (which is $123,624 for Code S). Will that remain in 2014? If there will be 4 WCS events (or any combination of GSL and OSL) in 2014, then it's not really a big prize cut, true.
Yes, you are correct. I should have included 2012s WCS. Based on that you could take in the full earnings of 2012, while I took only half of the possible earnings in for 2013 the result is basically even. I don't know what will happen 2014, but there will for sure be adjustments. In the end: I still can't see the reason for the oproar. Code S KR gets more or less the same money out of it in 2013 as they got in 2012.
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On April 17 2013 00:43 Waxangel wrote:
8 new players into each new NA/EU season vs 22 for KR
what the fuck
thats so bad ... is that true ?
I WANT IT SAME everywhere otherwise its a JOKE
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On April 17 2013 17:18 grs wrote:Numbers from http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1 vs. Blizzard's announcement. Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000 So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue. Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us." Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here?
yep cant see problem
top2 in gsl will make good in finals so +20k more and then global finals they get more too ... whats the point ?
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Unless I am missing something, Blizzard has not yet announced how you qualify for the season finals, right?
They said that it will be top 5 from each region +1 extra from host region. But what means top 5? The WCS premiere division goes into a single elimination bracket with the final 8 players, so you will easily get the top 4, but how do you get the 5th (and 6th for host region)?
Or will they not go by WCS premiere division placement, but by points? This could make for some awkward situations where some non-wcs tournaments that give out points could make the difference for players making the season finals or not...
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On April 17 2013 17:18 grs wrote:Numbers from http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1 vs. Blizzard's announcement. Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000 So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue. Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us." Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here?
choya not gonna win gsl, dreamhack or ironsquid ever! Everyone should stop whining and just go for it!
In a ranking system there a choices to make. Like, i could give points for tournaments, for playing other players (get more when u cheese stephano then a semipro) etcetcetc... For now, i like the system blizzard introduced and i see it as viable. Lets just see how everything turns out.
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On April 17 2013 20:20 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 17:18 grs wrote:Numbers from http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1 vs. Blizzard's announcement. Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000 So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue. Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us." Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here? choya not gonna win gsl, dreamhack or ironsquid ever! Everyone should stop whining and just go for it!
What a narrow-minded way to view things. Choya is the headcoach for FXO, his interest in this matter goes far beyond his career as a player; it's his duty to look after the FXO players.
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On April 17 2013 20:58 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 20:20 govie wrote:On April 17 2013 17:18 grs wrote:Numbers from http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1 vs. Blizzard's announcement. Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000 So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue. Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us." Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here? choya not gonna win gsl, dreamhack or ironsquid ever! Everyone should stop whining and just go for it! What a narrow-minded way to view things. Choya is the headcoach for FXO, his interest in this matter goes far beyond his career as a player; it's his duty to look after the FXO players.
Still he is doing like the world would end, which I can't see from the numbers.
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On April 17 2013 20:58 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 20:20 govie wrote:On April 17 2013 17:18 grs wrote:Numbers from http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1 vs. Blizzard's announcement. Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000 So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue. Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us." Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here? choya not gonna win gsl, dreamhack or ironsquid ever! Everyone should stop whining and just go for it! What a narrow-minded way to view things. Choya is the headcoach for FXO, his interest in this matter goes far beyond his career as a player; it's his duty to look after the FXO players.
Ill be honest. While typing that message I thought he was a player, my bad (apologies). But still, i believe the format is not bad to start off with.
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On April 17 2013 20:58 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 20:20 govie wrote:On April 17 2013 17:18 grs wrote:Numbers from http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1 vs. Blizzard's announcement. Champion $46,827 vs. $20,000 = - $26,827 Runner-up $18,731 vs. $12,000 = - $6,731 Semifinalists $4,683 vs. $7,000 = + $2,317 x 2 Ro8 $2,810 vs. $3,500 = + $690 x 4 Ro16 $1,873 vs. $2,000 = + $127 x 8 Ro32 $1,405 vs. $1,500 = + $95 x 16 Total $123,624 vs. $100,000 = - $23,000 So all together less for 1st and 2nd and more for everyone else. Less in total, but the top players get additional money from the season and global finals. I still don't get the issue. Edit: I especially don't get FXOChoya's tweet: .@FXOChoya "WCS NA=EU=KR all have the same prize pool while our GSL has essentially dropped to the class of other tournaments. We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country. You are making a joke out of us." Players who are not the best get more, or not. What am I missing here? choya not gonna win gsl, dreamhack or ironsquid ever! Everyone should stop whining and just go for it! What a narrow-minded way to view things. Choya is the headcoach for FXO, his interest in this matter goes far beyond his career as a player; it's his duty to look after the FXO players.
The tweet is pretty whiney and emo for a head coach. The part about “We either have to play outside of our country or become the best in the country,” was pretty much true before all of this happened. Also, his players do have more options to compete world wide with WCS, which is more exposure for his team. The issue with the prize money has become to much of a focus for people, in my opinion. As Artosis said, players can’t live off prize money and the exposure for the team almost more important.
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On April 17 2013 15:29 Shinta) wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 06:57 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 06:42 Shinta) wrote:On April 17 2013 05:40 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 04:59 MCXD wrote:Points system is super, super terrible. Like, super unbelievably terrible. I could probably dedicate an article to picking apart all of the absolutely stupid things about it, but I won't (maybe), because it's not like going to all of that effort would change anything v_v I posted this a couple of weeks ago, anticipating that this is exactly what would happen, and it's still relevant: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=406081Every player currently in Code B (esp Korean) is completely fucked over, and every player in Code S is laughing, no questions asked, because Blizzard refused to be intelligent and creative with their point allocations and just went for the brain-dead approach that ignored the nature of tiering. Incredibly frustrating. I feel for the progamers who have to put up with it. Here's something else to put it into perspective: A player who wins a GSL then immediately drops out of the GSL still has a decent shot of getting to the season final; if they win that then disappears from the face of the earth (retires even) they will still have more points than a player who gets 4 consecutive 2nd place finishes in the GSL. Also a player who goes 0-4 in the Code S Ro32 and 0-2 in their first Code A match to fall straight to Code B, walks away with equal amounts of points as the players who won every single Code A match that season. Consistency, eh? That makes me laugh. Youre misreading the point systems A player who wins a GSL gets 1.5k points. He'd also have to win the seasons finals = 3k points and then he's pretty much locked in for grand finals Also whoever qualifies for Code S from Code A will automatically get at least the Ro32 points too... The point system is not that bad Its the money and the allocation of seeds which is the problem. I see your point. The Code S money should be a bit higher as it would make more sense. Something to consider though is that the Code A money is significantly larger for Korea than it is for NA/EU. So much so that the 41-64th place Korean Code A player gets more money than the 1st place NA/EU player. That's pretty nice. I do think that they need a bit more money in Code S to be more realistic, however it's not realistic to give that money away right now most likely. Also, if you really think about it, this format is going to keep Korea in a very sustainable position, allowing a very viable professional scene to florish so long as the scene and the teams are well supported. The format is also going to allow for top NA/EU players to actually play SC2 seriously and professionally. An American isn't going to have to be in EG in order to quit their job and play only SC2 (although they will need a team to support them, they don't have to be filthy rich). It really seems like this format is going to allow NA and EU to play catch up, while not hurting Korea's financial stability. Sure it sucks to not get filthy rich off of 1 tournament, but eSports isn't about getting filthy rich off of 1 tournament. This is aiming for a more globalized setting for eSports and SC2. Another look at the points system makes me believe it's still not too bad. It's going to reward those NA/EU players who devoted themselves to their new found profession over the last year, and not someone who simply had a good tournament. At the same time, Koreans are still going to get more money than them because they are going to take the top places, because they are the best in the world. Eventually though, because this system is supporting the growth of NA and EU, the level of gameplay we see in the global finals will improve. I feel you're going to be angry whenever anyone who's not a Korean is playing because they aren't as good as Koreans, but that's not what anyone else is worried about here. The issue at hand is the growth of eSports and SC2. I like watching EU/NA games. Ive been following the EU qualifiers for the past two days passively because guys like Sterlok and Bunny have produced some entertaining games. However, I am going to be angry if I see a far more inferior player make it to the season finals over one of the 10s of better Korean betters that could have taken his place. Blizzard, I feel, has stunted the growth of Korean E-sports for NA/EU to basically catch up. The problem is....Korea has still A LOT of work to do in terms of esports growth. HoTS + Kespa players switching over did pull a few people in but not enough..or relevant enough to gain that full bw crowd into the SPL/GSTL stands. Not a lot of people care about sc2 in Korea than people think, staying away because its not "original" and "easy"..at least speaking to my relatives/cousins etc. Another point to make is that..I was excited at the prospect of OSL/GSL because of the fact that it brings back the duo tournaments (and I'm speaking as also a bw fan here) when it was OSL/MSL running at the same time. The GSL becoming the new MSL. But nope, they took that away. On top of that...they combined the two and made the winner of the combined "OSL/GSL" tournament..which should be prestrigious as EVER, some entry ticket to some season finale...while throw a bit of money at the winner and giving a paper that says "Good Job". lol. They didn't stunt anything. They're taking menu away from people who made too much for their own good anyways. They aren't stopping anyone's careers from developing like you're trying to ensinuate. Your relatives I bet get stomped on the ladder and complain that it's too easy. Korea is stuck on BW because of stubbornness, and just need time for that generation of people to pass for more fans to come in. Any grumpy old man will stand by their beliefs even when told by everyone that they're wrong, so the growth of SC2 in Korea isn't being hindered by this at all. Teams and money are still stable in Korea, and the biggest way to improve eSports and make SC2 more popular in Korea is to make it self sustainable and progressive, rather than giving 1 person a lot of money and making everyone else's financial status a joke. As for OSL/MSL, they got OGN on board the GSL, making the tournament a lot more widespread. Stop being so selfish and just realize that this is an awesome thing to happen!! In fact, they might even add an OSL later on after this has so much success come its way! The system is good, the players are good, the money is good (I do hope that the lower ends get a bit more money in the near future). This is a great thing that's happening. Korea is even making significantly more money than NA/EU (being that its going to the people who make the least money, I do consider it very significant even though its not thousands upon thousands of dollars). Hold your horses and watch this good thing bloom into a great thing. Blizzard still has a lot to learn, but they are putting a great machine to work here.
Wow...what an ignorant post.
"Your relatives I bet get stomped on the ladder and complain that its too easy"?
How stupid of a comment can you make?
That's the general perception of the game in korea and if you dont believe it, fly over there and determine that yourself.
It's not because of stubbornness at all. BW is the harder game to play. It's plain and simple. Stupid AI + limitations and having no UI at all does that. This is fact. That doesnt mean SC2 is easy, but simply BW is harder. My relatives and friends telling me their perception doesnt mean "they get stomped on ladder and QQing", it gives insight to what the game is thought of in Korea.
The growth of SC2 IS hindered. Less competition. Winning GSL/OSL means nothing now because all that means is that you get a ticket to blizzcon/season finale...
A Season finale where it's not even held in Korea 2/3 of the time. No prestige. SPL teams are fine. They always have been outside of a select few. Woongjin Stars still worries me in terms of finance but if you think the SC2 scene in Korea is stable? Youre delusional. Theres multiple teams hanging on by a thread. When's the last time..a new sponsor from Korea came along and invested in a new team? There isnt.
Azubu is the closest. They arent a korean company Lol...
How the fuck am I being selfish? Lmfao...
The system, the premise of it, is good, but its setup terribly.
The players ARE good, I agree.
The money may be good for the NA/EU scene, for korea, its significantly regressed. Oh sure. the SPL guys make a lot of money. Flash makes like what? 200k per year? JD probably makes like 100k. But now there's significantly less individual tournaments which means..the net that players would receive...especially those who arent even on salaries/contracts..are paid..Nothing. Nada. 0.
Blizzard is trying to make the scene better, I acknowledge that but they didnt have to hinder Korea's growth as a stepping stone for the growth of other nations.
They didnt have to take away the GSL but they did. They didnt have to take away the OSL but they did. They combined them called them the WCS. The legacy and the significance of placing 1st in "GSL/OSL" which is now called "WCS: korea" is gone. All they had to do was give KR a few extra seeds, keep the prize pool releatively the same as it was, still call it the GSL/OSL. But no, they decided to rebrandish it and retool what was working.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
i'm pretty sure more than 8 players get in each new season btw, look at the AM schedule. they have up/down groups
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As I re-iterate.
This move IS good for the overalll scene.
NA + EU will benefit off of this
100%
I almost guarantee it.
This move however is NOT good for KR
It's an insult.
It's a slap in the face.
Blizzard is belitting the players.
Growth is hindered.
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On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote:
This move however is NOT good for KR
It's an insult.
It's a slap in the face.
Blizzard is belitting the players.
Growth is hindered.
I dont see how pumping 1.6kk in a esport is a slap in the face, an insult, or seen as belitting players.. The korean players are the ones that will benefit most from that 1.6kk anyway... I do not see growth hindered at all.
Only thing that has changed for koreanplayers is that topkoreanplayers get more international exposure which is good for the sponsors, the players and the teams and therefore also the new young talented players... As i see it WCS is a blessing for the korean scene.
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People believe I have rather a pessimistic perspective
because I'm stating that its bad for Korea scene.
Well why not take a look at the tweets?
I feel like I'm just voicing out the players perspective on their behalf.
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On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote:
As I re-iterate.
This move IS good for the overalll scene.
NA + EU will benefit off of this
100%
I almost guarantee it.
This move however is NOT good for KR
It's an insult.
It's a slap in the face.
Blizzard is belitting the players.
Growth is hindered.
Can you please tell your arguments behind that claim? I posted numbers above that tell a different story. If they are wrong, please tell my why.
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On April 17 2013 22:30 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote:
This move however is NOT good for KR
It's an insult.
It's a slap in the face.
Blizzard is belitting the players.
Growth is hindered. I dont see how pumping 1.6kk in a esport is a slap in the face, an insult, or seen as belitting players.. The korean players are the ones that will benefit most from that 1.6kk anyway... I do not see growth hindered at all. Only thing that has changed for koreanplayers is that topkoreanplayers get more international exposure which is good for the sponsors, the players and the teams... As i see it WCS is a blessing for the korean scene.
Ok..so then..
Why are the likes of..
The entire MVP team
Leenock
Choya
Startale_Zero
Nestea
Firebat hero
Woongjin Stars coach
complaining about it??
Because they felt freakin insulted thats why. And everything is taken away from them.
They're belitting the players. Not all the players. Just the KR ones. They want the NA scene = EU scene = KR scene.
To get that. theyre forcing a move that lowers the KR scene to stoop to NA/EU's level
The korean players are not benefitting from this system at all.
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They tweet negative things because this all is a big change.
Change is uncertainty and thats always bad for people who live from that.
In my opinion its too early too say whether its good or bad. But I see your point, Light.
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On April 17 2013 22:34 LighT. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 22:30 govie wrote:On April 17 2013 22:15 LighT. wrote:
This move however is NOT good for KR
It's an insult.
It's a slap in the face.
Blizzard is belitting the players.
Growth is hindered. I dont see how pumping 1.6kk in a esport is a slap in the face, an insult, or seen as belitting players.. The korean players are the ones that will benefit most from that 1.6kk anyway... I do not see growth hindered at all. Only thing that has changed for koreanplayers is that topkoreanplayers get more international exposure which is good for the sponsors, the players and the teams... As i see it WCS is a blessing for the korean scene. Ok..so then.. Why are the likes of.. The entire MVP team Leenock Choya Startale_Zero Nestea Firebat hero Woongjin Stars coach complaining about it?? Because they felt freakin insulted thats why. And everything is taken away from them. They're belitting the players. Not all the players. Just the KR ones. They want the NA scene = EU scene = KR scene. To get that. theyre forcing a move that lowers the KR scene to stoop to NA/EU's level The korean players are not benefitting from this system at all.
There is not a single argument here. People are complaining about things all day, whether they are on a KR SC2 pro team or not. Why do they feel insulted? What is taken away from them? Blizzard does nothing to "lower" the KR scene. Please at least read what I wrote above. This is - for the moment - just echoing emotional, non rational complaints.
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I think problem for the Koreans is that big names have to choose between playing in the hardest/most prestigious tournament or playing somewhere else to get easy money. Big names includes both Koreans and foreigners and attract subscribers.
So the move is not that good for Korea, but for the foreign scene it is.
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On April 17 2013 22:30 LighT. wrote:
People believe I have rather a pessimistic perspective
because I'm stating that its bad for Korea scene.
Well why not take a look at the tweets?
I feel like I'm just voicing out the players perspective on their behalf.
People whining in the internet is not really evidence of much, regardless of what group is whining. I can see the players being upset about less prize money for their league, but the season finals offers even more winnings for the top 5 players for each region. A player could come in second in both Korea and the season finals and make as much as the second place of GSL last season. The winner of the entire season makes over 20K extra.
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EPT
