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On April 17 2013 02:18 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 02:12 LighT. wrote: Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take" Please elaborate on what Blizzard is taking away from the Korean scene. Because to me it seems you are equating not giving them extra priviledges to taking things away. What comes to GSL pricepools, ever thought that the old ones wouldn't be sustainable in the first place?
Taking away players in Korean tournaments, isn't that the biggest thing you can take away?
And giving established players an advantage over new rookie players, not based on previous performance or skill, but on resource and money. Taking away the fairness of the whole Korean scene.
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On April 17 2013 02:21 LighT. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 02:15 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 02:12 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 02:07 rQdjay wrote:On April 17 2013 01:57 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:47 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 01:44 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:39 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 01:31 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:26 Branman wrote: [quote]
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!! The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt. Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night. As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly. The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished. So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so. You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw. Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man. I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take" Nothing is stopping the Korean scene from holding their own weekend tournaments. GOM worked with IPL and learned how to hold something like that, so it's not Blizzard's fault if the Korean scene doesn't want to expand their own tournament scene. They HAD that. GSL and OSL was their thing. But they decided to combined GSL/OSL for the co-operation of OGN and GomTV. (Fine, this is good..OGN and GomTV do have to work together) THen they decide to turn essentially...what was their korean league into: WCS:KR. Look at MLG, they gained a tournament. MLG weekends are still going to be in place. But another tournament has been sprouted in MLG:WCS:NA IEM weekends are still going to be in place + Deramhack. ANother tournament been sprouted in IEM:WCS:EU Now..the korean scene.. GSL + OSL, combined to make WCS:KR and they took away their high prize money pool, the prestige of winning those titles (the rich history or oov/Flash/boxer/MVP) and Korea gains nothing from it outside of having some games broadcasted on OGN.
What about GSTL? Maybe now its time for GOM to invest more on GSTL. I think team tournament can be interesting as much as WCS. If GOM can use those saved money from GSL to put it in GSTL, they could creat possible steady income for players.
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The thing that really sticks out for me is the rotation of NA/EU Challenger League. 8 players being sent down to Code B is not enough, by far. That's one of the painful learnings of GSL 2011: terribad players will hang onto WCS spots for a long time with only 8 players falling out, leaving new talents waiting in the depths of qualifiers for way too long. This really needs fixing.
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On April 17 2013 02:21 Tobblish wrote: The point distribution looks really iffy to me because if you are a player in the challenger league in Korea you wont necessary have to access to the non WCS tournaments, ie no shot at making the Finals but the top tier more popular players and on certain teams will have a feast on them points.
This is probably why Challenger league in Korea awards more points than NA/EU does.
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On April 17 2013 02:22 starslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 01:37 MVTaylor wrote:On April 17 2013 01:35 starslayer wrote: Finally makes his name in the qualifier yesterday and now finds he's $1.5k richer, even if he doesn't win another map!
im sorry but if thats true thats just dumb thats a lot of money just to qualify i mean good for bunny and im gald there trying to help out the lesser known players but just cause you got into the tourney doesnt mean you should get money, you should need to actually win more to be placed into the money atleast top 8 not the quailfers but besides that cool i guess 24-32nd placers in Premier League get $1.5k... it's right there... Crazy went 0-4 in the GSL WCS KR last week and will get his $1.5k... ok and i think crazy shouldnt get money either 0-4 are you kidding me come on its saying its ok to loses
Well, might as well take it up with GOM then, since they've always paid out every spot in Code S, regardless of map score. I guess you could equate it to appearance fees in other sports.
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we need a uk player in premier league.... demuslim should come to europe. otherwise im rooting for bling.
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On April 17 2013 02:19 Tanatos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 02:17 rename wrote:On April 17 2013 02:10 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 02:06 rename wrote:On April 17 2013 01:42 PixelNite wrote: Haha all the koreans complaining about it on Twitter ... Wouldn't have mind Korea to have a bigger pricepool since it's the hardest league. They lost 1 whole season of separate GSL = 160k One separate OSL = 96k Old format WCS Korea/Asia/Finals = 26.5k + 43.2k ( top8 ) + 156k ( top 3) = 225k 3 WCS Code S seasons have 25k in prize money compared to last year GSL'ls = 75k Total 556k money gone from tournaments that are in korea, or are seeded based on KR tournaments. So lets see what they have gained. 3 Global finals ( lets assume they take top4 spots every time) : 240k 1 blizzcon final ( lets assume they will take top8 ) : 210k Total 450k new WCS money - so yeah, those global weekend tourneys dont compensate for the damage done to GSL. Still kind of baffled where the hell Blizzard came up with the " we are putting 3x more money in this year" statement. Except GOM and Kespa also have the option of running weekend (Western-style) events? Blizzard isn't stopping them from having more tournaments that are individually sponsored. That said, the entire scene is seeing a reduction in the number of tournaments. MLG isn't holding their Arenas, and IPL is done. If all Korea gets is the current GSL/OSL seasons and their team leagues, then it's a contraction that is in line with the NA scene's contraction. Except sponsors would pay much less for tourneys that just last a weekend, compared to several months - so there is much less incentive to run them. Currently weekend in Korea is occupied by GSTL and proleague. I don't think there is any room for such tournament and they really don't need such.
So they can't have extra tournaments because they already have tournaments? It's not like there are NA/EU equivalents of GSTL and Proleague.
Then again, that argument is a red herring. They can easily schedule around those events. It's not like all of EG-TL is attending Dreamhack, or Kespa sends their top players to MLG events.
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On April 17 2013 02:19 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 01:40 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:33 MVTaylor wrote:On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION? No it fucking isn't for god sake. Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after ti we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final. So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments. No....youre wrong. So completely wrong You arent getting my freakin point. WCS: NA = 5 Seeds WCS: KR = 5 Seeds Although 5=5 may look like balance. IT ISNT. Am I complaining that there's a WCS:NA? NO. So dont bring that up. In the Seasons Finals and Blizzcon, by equating the seeds for each region, you're dropping off the level of competition. Tell me that a 5th place WCS:KR player is equivalent in skill to a 5th place of a WCS: EU Player. WCS: Korea or...might as well call it WCS: Asia CLEARLY deserves some sort of advantage or perks because it's the most competitive BY FAR. But there isnt. A Flash or a Rain = Goody? Thorzain?? Dont make me laugh. Again stressing my point: MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS HAS A INVERT RELATIONHIP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION IN THE SEASON FINALS. Get real dude. There is currently as many GSL Code S Gold medals in WCS EU Premier as there is in Code S. And why would you assume someone like Goody will be in top 5? It would more likely be something like: Mvp, MMM, Stephano, Naniwa (who made it to Code S ro8 twice in a row) and Ret. There is a pretty substantial difference between EU and NA, and quite of a few of the European players can beat Koreans, especially those Koreans who play in WCS NA. Oh..? Is that your argument? Since there's as many GSL Code S golde models as there is in Code S KR right now; suddenly its justified? Is that how it works in your model? I guess if you watn to perceive it that way... We can see that clearly MVP + 4 Euros is clearly superior to Flash/Rain/Innovation/Parting/Life/Bomber since they have a combined 1 Gold Medall in total
Oh yes.. MMA..the washed up guy who hasnt done a thing for ages... Ahh who could forget Stephano..who put up a mere 50% winrate vs mid-tier koreans and got his butt kicked in Code S. Ret....ah yes ret...the guy who got completely demolished by Flash in MLG where it looked like a grand masters player vs a silver leaguer. Naniwa. I'll give you that. He's an unknown at the moment. Which is why I didnt list him. I respect his skill however.
If blizzard thinks MVP + Naniwa + 3 either washed up Koreans or Euros = 5 Top Tier Code S players They're delusional.
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The points for non-WCS Tier 1 tournaments aren't that bad at all, I expected much worse. Good news for Dreamhack / NASL / Iron Squid / HomeStory Cup etc.
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On April 17 2013 02:24 Tanatos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 02:21 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 02:15 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 02:12 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 02:07 rQdjay wrote:On April 17 2013 01:57 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:47 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 01:44 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:39 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 01:31 LighT. wrote: [quote] You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt. Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night. As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly. The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished. So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so. You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw. Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man. I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take" Nothing is stopping the Korean scene from holding their own weekend tournaments. GOM worked with IPL and learned how to hold something like that, so it's not Blizzard's fault if the Korean scene doesn't want to expand their own tournament scene. They HAD that. GSL and OSL was their thing. But they decided to combined GSL/OSL for the co-operation of OGN and GomTV. (Fine, this is good..OGN and GomTV do have to work together) THen they decide to turn essentially...what was their korean league into: WCS:KR. Look at MLG, they gained a tournament. MLG weekends are still going to be in place. But another tournament has been sprouted in MLG:WCS:NA IEM weekends are still going to be in place + Deramhack. ANother tournament been sprouted in IEM:WCS:EU Now..the korean scene.. GSL + OSL, combined to make WCS:KR and they took away their high prize money pool, the prestige of winning those titles (the rich history or oov/Flash/boxer/MVP) and Korea gains nothing from it outside of having some games broadcasted on OGN. What about GSTL? Maybe now its time for GOM to invest more on GSTL. I think team tournament can be interesting as much as WCS. If GOM can use those saved money from GSL to put it in GSTL, they could creat possible steady income for players. GOMTV royally fucked up with GSTL. Like the # of failure is unprecedented in the sc e-sports scene thus far. They made a team league, yet they didnt help teams pick up sponsorships and impede growth of ESF teams. To be truthful I dont see them lasting too long and you may see a few new teams entering the SPL next year or the year after that.
With blizzards move of combining GSL/OSL, taking away its lustre, and calling it WCS:KR Basically blizzard is telling WCS:KR "You have a team leaghe, so youre fine, if you want something else, create a new one by yourself again from the ground up, **** yo couch"
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On April 17 2013 02:15 Branman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 02:12 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 02:07 rQdjay wrote:On April 17 2013 01:57 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:47 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 01:44 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:39 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 01:31 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:26 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 01:23 LighT. wrote: [quote] Why would it lead to a super-boring competition? Enlighten me. Because simply they're from the same nation??? its about level of competition. And lets use your example of world cup. It just supports my argument. Why?? World Cup is biased towards different continents. You dont see NA getting the same # of seeds as Europe or SA. Australia + asia only get like 4 seeds...
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country. As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue. You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!! The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt. Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night. As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly. The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished. So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so. You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw. Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man. I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take" Nothing is stopping the Korean scene from holding their own weekend tournaments. GOM worked with IPL and learned how to hold something like that, so it's not Blizzard's fault if the Korean scene doesn't want to expand their own tournament scene.
Actually there is something stopping them. SC2 is not very big in Korea. I think if such an event were profitable, they would undoubtedly have done it by now, but it clearly isn't.
Remember the ESV Weekly tournaments? The ESports Monthly Cup? Tournaments that offered a fair bit of money for up-and-coming Code B/A players and gave them just a bit more exposure, while at the same time providing some more quality entertainment and high level play for the spectators at home. You know what happened? They went under because almost nobody cared to watch them. GSL and StarLeague have the advantage of prestige which makes even more casual viewers tune in.
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EU and NA should have half the KR points. Seeds into season finals should favor WCS KR much more, at least 8-10.
With the current basically same points system, for global finals, there will be less players coming out of WCS KR than NA or EU, because no koreans can consistently make RO8 in GSL or OSL without problems. But in EU or NA, several top koreans can probably make top 4 every time without much problem, they will squeeze out some of those better WCS KR players.
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On April 17 2013 02:32 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 02:15 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 02:12 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 02:07 rQdjay wrote:On April 17 2013 01:57 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:47 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 01:44 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:39 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 01:31 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:26 Branman wrote: [quote]
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!! The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt. Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night. As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly. The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished. So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so. You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw. Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man. I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take" Nothing is stopping the Korean scene from holding their own weekend tournaments. GOM worked with IPL and learned how to hold something like that, so it's not Blizzard's fault if the Korean scene doesn't want to expand their own tournament scene. Actually there is something stopping them. SC2 is not very big in Korea. I think if such an event were profitable, they would undoubtedly have done it by now, but it clearly isn't. Remember the ESV Weekly tournaments? The ESports Monthly Cup? Tournaments that offered a fair bit of money for up-and-coming Code B/A players and gave them just a bit more exposure, while at the same time providing some more quality entertainment and high level play for the spectators at home. You know what happened? They went under because almost nobody cared to watch them. GSL and StarLeague have the advantage of prestige which makes even more casual viewers tune in.
The same stuff happened to the NA equivalents. It's not a Korea-centric thing, but a global phenomena.
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On April 17 2013 02:32 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 02:15 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 02:12 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 02:07 rQdjay wrote:On April 17 2013 01:57 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:47 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 01:44 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:39 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 01:31 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:26 Branman wrote: [quote]
Yea, it's biased towards different continents, but it's pretty obvious that the skill is only in two of them. Why should New Zealand or North Korea ever show up in the World Cup? It's very analogous to the WCS system where Korea has many more invites than every other country.
As to the prize money thing: if Koreans are truly the best players, then they will win the prizes at the regional finals making the reduction in GSL top prize money a non-issue.
You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!! The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt. Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night. As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly. The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished. So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so. You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw. Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man. I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take" Nothing is stopping the Korean scene from holding their own weekend tournaments. GOM worked with IPL and learned how to hold something like that, so it's not Blizzard's fault if the Korean scene doesn't want to expand their own tournament scene. Actually there is something stopping them. SC2 is not very big in Korea. I think if such an event were profitable, they would undoubtedly have done it by now, but it clearly isn't. Remember the ESV Weekly tournaments? The ESports Monthly Cup? Tournaments that offered a fair bit of money for up-and-coming Code B/A players and gave them just a bit more exposure, while at the same time providing some more quality entertainment and high level play for the spectators at home. You know what happened? They went under because almost nobody cared to watch them. GSL and StarLeague have the advantage of prestige which makes even more casual viewers tune in. Whether people like it or not. Korea is the mecca of E-sports just like how it was with BW. Blizzard is trying to promote growth on the EU/NA scene when the Korean scene still needs A LOT of development and not self-sustaining at the moment. Above that, they took away the title of a tournament that was highly regarded by even the casual koreans of GSL.
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On April 17 2013 02:28 LighT. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 02:19 Prog455 wrote:On April 17 2013 01:40 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:33 MVTaylor wrote:On April 17 2013 01:24 LighT. wrote: It's essentially a trade off. It's either.. DO YOU WANT MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS OTHER THAN KOREA? or.... DO YOU WANT TO SEE MORE HIGHER LEVEL COMPETITION? No it fucking isn't for god sake. Before this year WCS announcement we had the GSL and nothing for foreigners and after ti we STILL have the GSL, some tournaments MOSTLY for foreigners then 3 Seasonal Finals and 1 Yearly Grand final. So, we get more representatives from other countries, but obviously less than lass year AND we get more high level competition with more tournaments. No....youre wrong. So completely wrong You arent getting my freakin point. WCS: NA = 5 Seeds WCS: KR = 5 Seeds Although 5=5 may look like balance. IT ISNT. Am I complaining that there's a WCS:NA? NO. So dont bring that up. In the Seasons Finals and Blizzcon, by equating the seeds for each region, you're dropping off the level of competition. Tell me that a 5th place WCS:KR player is equivalent in skill to a 5th place of a WCS: EU Player. WCS: Korea or...might as well call it WCS: Asia CLEARLY deserves some sort of advantage or perks because it's the most competitive BY FAR. But there isnt. A Flash or a Rain = Goody? Thorzain?? Dont make me laugh. Again stressing my point: MORE REPRESENTATIVES FROM OTHER NATIONS HAS A INVERT RELATIONHIP TO THE LEVEL OF COMPETITION IN THE SEASON FINALS. Get real dude. There is currently as many GSL Code S Gold medals in WCS EU Premier as there is in Code S. And why would you assume someone like Goody will be in top 5? It would more likely be something like: Mvp, MMM, Stephano, Naniwa (who made it to Code S ro8 twice in a row) and Ret. There is a pretty substantial difference between EU and NA, and quite of a few of the European players can beat Koreans, especially those Koreans who play in WCS NA. Oh..? Is that your argument? Since there's as many GSL Code S golde models as there is in Code S KR right now; suddenly its justified? Is that how it works in your model? I guess if you watn to perceive it that way... We can see that clearly MVP + 4 Euros is clearly superior to Flash/Rain/Innovation/Parting/Life/Bomber since they have a combined 1 Gold Model in total Oh yes.. MMA..the washed up guy who hasnt done a thing for ages... Ahh who could forget Stephano..who put up a mere 50% winrate vs mid-tier koreans and got his butt kicked in Code S. Ret....ah yes ret...the guy who got completely demolished by Flash in MLG where it looked like a grand masters player vs a silver leaguer. Naniwa. I'll give you that. He's an unknown at the moment. Which is why I didnt list him. I respect his skill however. If blizzard thinks MVP + Naniwa + 3 either washed up Koreans or Euros = 5 Top Tier Code S players They're delusional.
MMA..the guy joint 8th in FGSTL points Stephano, who requalified for Code S from the Up and Downs ahead of players such as Lure, Trust, EffOrt, Rying, Center, Killer, NesTea, HerO, noblesse, LabyRinth, aLive, Bbyong, Sniper and ByuN Ret... the guy who finished in the same position as PartinG and viOLet at the first HotS SC2 tournament.
You are so RELENTLESSLY negative it's horrible. I hope you have so little pride for your country and region in all aspects of your life as you're displaying here.
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On April 17 2013 02:10 Conti wrote: The situation really sucks for Koreans that decided to play in NA or EU and don't make it into Code S.
Just take MVPTails who tries to get into WCS EU right now. There's a realistic chance that he will not make it this season. But he's participated in the qualifiers, so that means that for the rest of the year he cannot even try to get into GSL or OSL. And there are not really any other tournaments (besides team leagues) in Korea. And sending him to a foreign event? Why would his team ever do that, when they can instead send a WCS player who needs some more WCS points to get into the Season/Global finals?
So there's practically nothing for him to do for a full year other than playing a few qualifiers and hoping to get in. That doesn't sound very fun at all.
Such bullshit.
He would not have qualified for code s kr in the next ten years anyway because he is mediocre in KR. Blizzard gave him a chance to get in a code s in another region. He and his team choose EU, but maybe he is not good enough for code s EU. every mediocre korean gets a chance thx to blizzard to compete in another code s outside of KR. If they dont get in code s, then u just have to get better like all the other players outside of KR.
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On April 17 2013 02:25 MVTaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 02:22 starslayer wrote:On April 17 2013 01:37 MVTaylor wrote:On April 17 2013 01:35 starslayer wrote: Finally makes his name in the qualifier yesterday and now finds he's $1.5k richer, even if he doesn't win another map!
im sorry but if thats true thats just dumb thats a lot of money just to qualify i mean good for bunny and im gald there trying to help out the lesser known players but just cause you got into the tourney doesnt mean you should get money, you should need to actually win more to be placed into the money atleast top 8 not the quailfers but besides that cool i guess 24-32nd placers in Premier League get $1.5k... it's right there... Crazy went 0-4 in the GSL WCS KR last week and will get his $1.5k... ok and i think crazy shouldnt get money either 0-4 are you kidding me come on its saying its ok to loses Well, might as well take it up with GOM then, since they've always paid out every spot in Code S, regardless of map score. I guess you could equate it to appearance fees in other sports. i just edited my post forgot that he was in code s which is fine with me because he had to go through code A and make it into code s where bunny is getting 1.5 and just qualified, and plz understand i have nothing against bunny just that there paying a player that amount of money for just getting into the tourney
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The lack of player turnover in EU/NA is a big problem to me. With this format its guaranteed that at least 16 of the 32 players in premier division will return the next season (although not necessarily the top 16). That puts a lot faith in the initial invites. If it turns out the invites were bad, at most 8 can be eliminated and 8 demoted to challenger per season. With only 2 seasons left in the year after the first, there's not even enough time for premier division to be purely results based by the end of the year.
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Does no one else care that code s is now only 20,000 dollars?
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On April 17 2013 02:34 Branman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 02:32 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On April 17 2013 02:15 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 02:12 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 02:07 rQdjay wrote:On April 17 2013 01:57 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:47 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 01:44 LighT. wrote:On April 17 2013 01:39 Branman wrote:On April 17 2013 01:31 LighT. wrote: [quote] You do make a solid argument about why most koreans would be deterred from WCS: NA if theyre from Korean league teams unless youre loaded (ie. MC/Nestea/MVP etc) But Korea DOESNT have many more invites than every other country. WCS:KR is basically WCS: Asia, call it WCS:Asia and you'll still have the same result because there isnt a single player outside of Korea (no disrespect to XiGua, Jim and Sen) that would do climb up the ranks otherwise. And Blizzard is giving the equal treatment of seeds by implying WCS: Asia = WCS:NA. How ridiculous is that!!
The whole moving to NA/Eu is a big deal. If Koreans want to become a part of the NA/EU scene, they are welcome. We could use more players like Polt. Last I checked, not too many Koreans signed up for the WCS/NA qualifier due to actual obligations. EG-TL can't really participate in the qualifier because it goes from midnight KST until 10:00 am KST the night after a Proleague match. The tower-defense that is the EU qualification tournament right now is also proving that you really can't expect to qualify for another continent's code s by playing a tournament all night. As you mentioned. They cant cause of SPL/GSTL obligations. Especially the SPL teams which has their league spanning the entire year. The greatest benefits are the koreans in foreigner teams because they have more flexibility and leverage. korean teams arent going to suddenly pack their belongings and move to NA , throwing away GSTL/SPL just for a crack at easier competition in WCS:NA. The logistics of that is inane.. Knowing that competition will always be 4-5x greater in WCS:KR than WCS: EU/NA, they should have sorted it accordingly. The thing is... the stated goal of blizzard is to make Koreans and their team houses move to EU/NA. The point is to make SC2 a more global game where your skill level isn't dependent on where you live. If this balances the ladder where the top of the Korean ladder is at the same level as the NA/EU ladder, then mission accomplished. So youre saying the ultimate goal of this is... they want to promote other korean teams to get VISAs for all their players/coaches etc Move into a completely new environment where they will face great cultural barrier/communication/ more expenses + tax Just to even out the playing field? That's not happening. Not happening because again, its not logical to do so. You want to establish team houses in EU/NA? Make a freakin team league..a competent one where its held offline, has large prize pool. You dont necessarily have to take away anything from the KR scene to cultivate growth on other regions but that is quite apparent from what I see right nojw. Jesus dude could you be more negative about this? Do you not understand that Blizzard investing $1.6 Million dollars to give to the players is a great thing for our scene? And they are clearly going to improve the system overtime. Hell it only began a couple of weeks ago and people like you are going batshit crazy about everything Blizzard does saying it is horrible and is going to kill the Korean scene. That obviously isn't true. The fact is that at the end of the road players will earn tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars. Also they are making sure that up and coming players have actually have a GOAL to try and get results. Before this there is no way that a high masters or a low gm would ever think about completely dropping their school/job to try and pursuit becoming a pro gamer. And ontop of that Blizzard is giving more money to tournaments to increase production value. Be grateful for what Blizzard is doing and the fact that they are actively trying to grow our scene and benefit the players. Give it some time man. I was one of the few defending the idea of WCS when TB/Catz were ranting about it because the details werent in place but now..I can see why there's a large reason to complain about. I'm not saying Blizzard investing 1.6million dollars is terrible. It's great! Blizzard cares! What my complaint is that they put in a system that's obviously flawed. Again; you dont need to take away things from the Korean scene for global growth. This is whats happening right now with the new WCS system. Their idea of growth is "give and take" Nothing is stopping the Korean scene from holding their own weekend tournaments. GOM worked with IPL and learned how to hold something like that, so it's not Blizzard's fault if the Korean scene doesn't want to expand their own tournament scene. Actually there is something stopping them. SC2 is not very big in Korea. I think if such an event were profitable, they would undoubtedly have done it by now, but it clearly isn't. Remember the ESV Weekly tournaments? The ESports Monthly Cup? Tournaments that offered a fair bit of money for up-and-coming Code B/A players and gave them just a bit more exposure, while at the same time providing some more quality entertainment and high level play for the spectators at home. You know what happened? They went under because almost nobody cared to watch them. GSL and StarLeague have the advantage of prestige which makes even more casual viewers tune in. The same stuff happened to the NA equivalents. It's not a Korea-centric thing, but a global phenomena.
I can see where you're coming from with this, it's true that none of them did all too well, but at the same time they're not very comparable. Sometimes you would get ZOTACs or Playhem Dailies or Go4SC2 cups break several thousand concurrents even going back as far as 2011, back when Khaldor and ESLtv used to cast them. Meanwhile, I've rarely seen the Korean online tournaments of the same daily/weekly scale break more than a few hundred. So I think it's fair to say, it kind of is a Korean-related problem in this sense.
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