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and i'm actually responding and discussing with people who actually have intellectual or even something to say other than 'oh this is stupid trolololl' ....
sorry for calling u a dbag ddtroach, but you gotta admit that if people on fourms had to register their real names like in south korea, the internet would be a much better place.
getting back in topic, even if the pros themselves don't have money, im sure the team sponsors, friends, or even fans who have the money would want to pony up to see a match-up. Say MC has a open call for any forigener to play him for $1000. No takers right? Now say MC is willing to give any forigener 3 games in a race to 9, (best of 18 for sc players, i dont know why sc does 'sets' in best ofs, instead of races, its a lot easier to understand races than best ofs imo), then players that have gotten close to beating MC before n know with a slight edge they could beat him, would step up to play, or would have sponsors or like i said even fans pitch in to put them in.
In the 9-ball US open 2005, John Schmitt, who is a pretty good american pro, (prob put him up there with idra, in the aspect of being really good with no tangible results) he went on azbilliards.com , which is the pool equiv. of team liquid, and got about 40 ppl to put him into the tourney, just like REDDIT did with MKP a few years back. Well, just like MKP, John Schmitt actually went and won the US OPEN that year, it was like, pool's feel good story of the year.
Anyway the point being, with a proper handicapping system in place, im sure u would have a LOT more pros be willing to play other pros.
Case in point, and i hate to keep comparing pool to starcraft2, but while there are the 'cream of the crop' a la flash, parting, and a few others who consistantly get results in the tournerments, there are literally hundreds of other pros who are just a few shades below them in terms of skill, but b/c of that, don't get ANY results, or make any money, and end up getting burned out and quitting.
If something like this was in place, where action matches were streamed and viewed, like say if day9 got on the bandwagon, (im pretty sure he's wayyy too vanella to want to do this tho) i think that it would really help the pro players who are good enough to play at that high level, but lets be honest.... sc2.. unless ur winning tournerments, ur not relevant.
This is a way for players that we KNOW are GREAT, Idra, Leyia, Moonglade, Ret, lastshadow, suppy, scarlett, etc etc etc
but just cant seem to get there in those tourneys to get known, and get more exposure.
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im pretty sure this is what Playhem tried to do afaik?
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im not familiar with playhem, what exactly did they try to do?
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On April 12 2013 02:12 ioCross wrote:
and i'm actually responding and discussing with people who actually have intellectual or even something to say other than 'oh this is stupid trolololl' ....
sorry for calling u a dbag ddtroach, but you gotta admit that if people on fourms had to register their real names like in south korea, the internet would be a much better place.
getting back in topic, even if the pros themselves don't have money, im sure the team sponsors, friends, or even fans who have the money would want to pony up to see a match-up. Say MC has a open call for any forigener to play him for $1000. No takers right? Now say MC is willing to give any forigener 3 games in a race to 9, (best of 18 for sc players, i dont know why sc does 'sets' in best ofs, instead of races, its a lot easier to understand races than best ofs imo), then players that have gotten close to beating MC before n know with a slight edge they could beat him, would step up to play, or would have sponsors or like i said even fans pitch in to put them in.
In the 9-ball US open 2005, John Schmitt, who is a pretty good american pro, (prob put him up there with idra, in the aspect of being really good with no tangible results) he went on azbilliards.com , which is the pool equiv. of team liquid, and got about 40 ppl to put him into the tourney, just like REDDIT did with MKP a few years back. Well, just like MKP, John Schmitt actually went and won the US OPEN that year, it was like, pool's feel good story of the year.
Anyway the point being, with a proper handicapping system in place, im sure u would have a LOT more pros be willing to play other pros.
Case in point, and i hate to keep comparing pool to starcraft2, but while there are the 'cream of the crop' a la flash, parting, and a few others who consistantly get results in the tournerments, there are literally hundreds of other pros who are just a few shades below them in terms of skill, but b/c of that, don't get ANY results, or make any money, and end up getting burned out and quitting.
If something like this was in place, where action matches were streamed and viewed, like say if day9 got on the bandwagon, (im pretty sure he's wayyy too vanella to want to do this tho) i think that it would really help the pro players who are good enough to play at that high level, but lets be honest.... sc2.. unless ur winning tournerments, ur not relevant.
This is a way for players that we KNOW are GREAT, Idra, Leyia, Moonglade, Ret, lastshadow, suppy, scarlett, etc etc etc
but just cant seem to get there in those tourneys to get known, and get more exposure.
On the topic of real names, I think I've gone and done that accidentally.
I'm just recommending that you calm down in general. I didn't even think you were talking to me; just wasting your energy on people who didn't come here for anything more than a cute one-liner.
My feelings on this matter are that Playhem tried it, and even had some popularity for a while. It ended up not really working out for them, and Teamliquid became the very place where Playhem was community blacklisted (not sure how familiar you are with the scene, but the moment Playhem stopped giving out free money everyone jumped ship).
Now, if you expect Teamliquid to act as a Playhem wannabe organization, only with a business model that doesn't involve giving out free money with no actual revenue source, then so be it. Just don't say I didn't warn you.
Pro-gamers aren't exactly rolling in disposable money that they're willing to put on the line in the numbers you're talking. Usually, there's some kind of sponsorship or tournament that acts as the source of the money. From the sheer perspective of the even organizer (let's say it's Teamliquid); what's in it for them? Where do they get compensated for the advertising, the exposure, the brand-name association, or providing the platform (the stream & the commentary)? Are the pro-gamers going to also pay them? Does the money come from the stream?
It's very easy to call people negative, but it's just as easy to say something borders on unrealistic and unsustainable when it's proven to be very difficult to make work.
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On April 12 2013 02:18 ioCross wrote:
im not familiar with playhem, what exactly did they try to do?
Playhem was(is?) a website where people could organize tourneys or show-matches either for money, or for free. It hosted most EA sports titles on console as well as SC2, which was seemingly its focal point (streams & dedicated dailies where players of any rank could play for money). I don't remember there being that much support for the other games - SC2 was really what they seemed to get most of their traffic from.
What they did was give people with no money in their accounts the opportunity to have money in their accounts via dailies.
Yes, you could inject your own money into your Playhem account via Paypal, but no, I don't think anybody did this.
Playhem had the ability to "Challenge" other players to a "Head-to-Head" match either for Playhem points or money. They were very careful to make the service unavailable in places where people weren't smart enough to differentiate between a wager and a gamble.
Basically, they provided EXACTLY the framework you depict- one where people can go and play each other for money, pro or amateur. They even had a featured stream on TL once upon a time with casters - you might remember PlayhemTV.
EDIT: The story ends as you'd imagine. People used the service for the dailies, and withdrew the money, instead of playing against their fellow money-makers for more money. Over time, they'd given away all their money, people could no longer withdraw money for a while, and between Reddit and TL, a shit-storm brewed that killed them off.
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hmm... yeah that pretty much seems to be the gist of it, im sure there was some reason or another involved that it didnt work, as the actual framework that i suggest can be done wit virtually zero overhead, as the pros themselves pony up the cash (either by sponsors, friends/fans, backers or whatever), and the people who would do the content (TL or NASL or even a start-up) would have to just have the man-hours to make graphics and promotions, and a website and ranking systems... it can all be done fairly cheaply, or with zero cost at all. maybe it was b/c they (playheim) had too aggressive of a business model, or even tried to run it as a business model that would have made them money.
this would be enitrely fan service, any money made from revune streams would goto the players, or to the content producers.
I KNOW for a fact that there would be people willing to put in the man hours as fanservice, and some of the lesser known casters (madals, duckville, etc) would love to get in on the casting action just to get thier name out there.
Baiscally, from a business standpoint, i believe the model is sound, and there are prime examples of this model working.
Also, im 30 yrs old n own 2 businesses, in case anyone wanted to troll on about how im some 16 year old kid typing from his moms basement.
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On April 11 2013 11:41 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 11:37 Gamegene wrote:On April 11 2013 11:35 SkimGuy wrote:
Is everyone forgetting what happened with Savior and a bunch of other progamers? Cmon guys... Except that has nothing to do with this! Sure it does. Say we put 50k on player A to play player B. Then the broker or whoever tell player A to lose and he will give player A 25k. Then player A lose on purpose and we're out 50k while player A and whoever he made the deal with gained 25k each.
We aren't putting any money up. The people playing are. Read the original post lol. And why would anybody have to lose on purpose even if we were putting up the money? They could just have agreed to split the money no matter who won.
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Playhem's business model must have been terribly flawed to have worked out the way it did. I have no argument there, because frankly, I'm not entirely sure why they suddenly fell off the face of the earth - they just did.
As a business owner (owner of 2 businesses, as you say) I'm now not sure how you don't have the resources to start up this idea. If you're able to actually break down the start-up costs and form a concrete business plan, you should be able to develop this further than a mere hypothetical scenario. Surely, with a financial backer (one or both of your businesses), YOU could make this happen. Once it actually happens, you come back here to TeamLiquid and advertise (you can get one of those sponsored threads and a featured stream).
The thing about businesses, as you should know, is that they need a source of revenue to be sustainable and mainly, for the purpose of marketing and expanding the brand. What good is it if the service exists, but makes no money for the service provider? I find it hard to believe that anybody would be willing to do this merely as a labour of love.
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thank you lam.... i swear, its like most people don't even read the damn post, and just assume that im saying something that they would disagree with..
i remember my sociology prof used to say social media and seamless communication will dumb us down by multitudes, and i daresay that he's more right than i care to admit.
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I thought I remember grudge matches like this happening in the past... I think it's a fun Idea but it is hard for the players to put up much money I think.
Personally i'm not a big fan of the gambling side, but there is nothing like a good grudge match to foster some competitiveness
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I would have it set up like Kickstarter. The Pro's don't put down their own money, people can vote with their wallets on which matches they want to see. If the money pool rises above a certain criteria within a number of days, the match becomes a reality, and people who funded it are giving exclusive access to the live stream of the game aswell as a VOD.
If the money doesnt hit the neccessary level, they are refunded.
The winnings are split amount the two players, loser gets 15%, winner gets 85%.
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lol, dude just cuz i own 2 busineeses doesn't mean i'm rich.
Well, saying that i own them would be a lie, i have a 20% stock in an LLC that consists of 2 businesses, and we're thinking of expanding into the modular alarm monitoring for small businesses, but i don't even pay myself a salary right now.
granted i take care of all my bills and extras that i spend money on from whats i guess consitered 'petty cash', but i definatly don't have even enough money to afford my own house. I do own a house, but without my roommates pitching in for the bills/morgtage, i wouldn't be able to swing it on my own. especially now in this economy.
If our business had anything at all to do with computers or IT or anything, i could maybe try to put together some sort of business plan, but as the LLC consists of a liquor store/convinence store and a cellphone repair/hard water filter system store.
so yeah.... don't think hineken or anhiser busch would be interested in anything like that.
I have thought about it, and if in a few years im actually rich, i might partially sponsor a tour, or if there's a player i really like do what TB did with Crank.
But as far as legitamatly going for this, i have no presense in e-sports. The most i can do is try to get people engaged in this idea, and hope that someone with insight picks it up and thinks about it.
Imagine if day9 and husky came up with this idea, and they already have the ability to contact other pros, and people in the business who could arrainge such things.
the main problem, and this is why teamliquid is the exception, and why TL is one of the best websites out there period when it comes to generated content, is that there is a rabid base of intelligent people willing to put time in to produce content that would otherwise cost a LOT of money.
So as long as we have enough passionate people willing to make a few posters and stuff like that, this could go off without a hitch.
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On April 12 2013 03:42 nottapro wrote:
I would have it set up like Kickstarter. The Pro's don't put down their own money, people can vote with their wallets on which matches they want to see. If the money pool rises above a certain criteria within a number of days, the match becomes a reality, and people who funded it are giving exclusive access to the live stream of the game aswell as a VOD.
If the money doesnt hit the neccessary level, they are refunded.
The winnings are split amount the two players, loser gets 15%, winner gets 85%.
This diminishes the interest in rigging the match, as the pro's have very to gain by throwing the match, it is community sponsored tournament.
well the idea here is that the pros themselves pony up the money, wether its from their own tournerment winnings, or from the team they are on, or even if its from various fans who really want to see the match-up, but the actual money being wagered is the players, and unless a florishing underground gambling community arises from these sc action matches, some instance like savior would NEVER happen, simply because there isn't any money in it.
What savior was doing was like Tiger Woods convincing other touring pros to throw certain matches so the people that gamble on the side can win one way or the other.
That would never happen with this, unless it got big enough that there were acutally people willing to bet large sums of money on the outcome of the match.
Once again, the money being wagered is by the players, and any money made from the stream revenue should theoretically be going right back into content production, exposure, etc. etc. et.
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I feel like it's probably workable (from a legal perspective) and it doesn't pose the match-fixing worries that some are going on about here.
One concern I have is whether SC2 needs more tournaments. There were always lots of tournaments going on in WOL at any given time, perhaps too many and as a result some argued that SC2 fans suffered from over-saturation. That's about the only downside I see.
I do see signfiicant upside potential. For example, lots of people would tune in to see Flash v. Stephano or Flash v. Jaedong, even though none of those player is (yet) the best in the world in his respective race. I forget how many tuned in to watch the Whitera - Stephano showmatch but IIRC it was 20-30K, which is pretty significant. Having Flash, Stephano, etc. put up their own money would add a bit of drama to what essentially would be a show match. It might also be interesting to have "handicapped" events as well, with player A getting to pick all of the maps, or needing only to win 2 games in a best of 5, etc.
If there was an organization that could help the players negotiate the terms of the, what I'll call, showmatch (number of games, maps, handicaps, etc.) I agree that it could spice things up.
IGN's fightclub was in a way doing this with what amounted to weekly showmatches. However it didn't have the players putting up their own money.Another difference is that in this model the players could strike out on their own and set these matches up. In the fightclub model, whoever wins will face whoever IGN chose to pit him against in the next series. The more I write the more I think there could be something there. You need an organization that could line up the logistics, etc. Although they have a really great group of casters and personalities, NASL seems to be foundering a bit (in terms of viewers, if I'm not mistaken). Perhaps they might be interested in organizing something like this where they supply the casters, organize the stream and hype the event and the players put in say 80% of the prize money and negotiate, along with the NASL, the terms of the match.
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On April 12 2013 03:21 dUTtrOACh wrote:
The thing about businesses, as you should know, is that they need a source of revenue to be sustainable and mainly, for the purpose of marketing and expanding the brand. What good is it if the service exists, but makes no money for the service provider? I find it hard to believe that anybody would be willing to do this merely as a labour of love.
you'd be surprised. you think husky started casting games cuz he knew eventually he'd be being invited to premier tournerments as a main caster?
you think day9 makes his dailies for money? im sure he didnt even have more than 200 subscribers when he was doing his dailies for broodwar.
there are lots of sponsors who lose money to advertise their product. Think of the avg nascar car. you think all those companies have a concrete percentage of people that specifically buy their product cuz a tiny logo plastered to a side of the undercaragge of the back of a nascar car that just goes around in circles all day? of course not.
There are tons and tons and tons of services that exist as a supplimentry that provides free content as a labor of love.
The most obvious ones(pertaining to this topic) being youtube and sc2 casts.
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On April 12 2013 03:43 ioCross wrote:
lol, dude just cuz i own 2 busineeses doesn't mean i'm rich.
Well, saying that i own them would be a lie, i have a 20% stock in an LLC that consists of 2 businesses, and we're thinking of expanding into the modular alarm monitoring for small businesses, but i don't even pay myself a salary right now.
granted i take care of all my bills and extras that i spend money on from whats i guess consitered 'petty cash', but i definatly don't have even enough money to afford my own house. I do own a house, but without my roommates pitching in for the bills/morgtage, i wouldn't be able to swing it on my own. especially now in this economy.
If our business had anything at all to do with computers or IT or anything, i could maybe try to put together some sort of business plan, but as the LLC consists of a liquor store/convinence store and a cellphone repair/hard water filter system store.
so yeah.... don't think hineken or anhiser busch would be interested in anything like that.
I have thought about it, and if in a few years im actually rich, i might partially sponsor a tour, or if there's a player i really like do what TB did with Crank.
But as far as legitamatly going for this, i have no presense in e-sports. The most i can do is try to get people engaged in this idea, and hope that someone with insight picks it up and thinks about it.
Imagine if day9 and husky came up with this idea, and they had incontrol n all h=h
the main problem, and this is why teamliquid is the exception, and why TL is one of the best websites out there period when it comes to generated content, is that there is a rabid base of intelligent people willing to put time in to produce content that would otherwise cost a LOT of money.
So as long as we have enough passionate people willing to make a few posters and stuff like that, this could go off without a hitch.
Relying on free labour might not be the best business plan. TL's volunteers are very different from their paid staff in terms of content delivery and work.
The moment you start having something like this, somebody other than the show-match players will be asking for a pay-cheque for services rendered. Be it the commentator(s), the production staff, the marketing people, etc, somebody else needs to get paid, and that comes directly out of the prize money and the stream revenues. The stream revenues themselves can't really be quantified immediately because most viewers will try and watch the VODs (and then, how do those work?).
I feel that the idea isn't stupid; not at all. The thing is, in practice, there is a lot of behind-the-scenes work that goes into producing this type of endeavor. The gamers are the show, but without the producers, there is no show. When the producers are volunteers or fans, how long until they start feeling like slaves and stop volunteering their time so that a few key figures make money off of each showmatch?
This is all wishful thinking until you start to associate people's time with money and actually create a realistic business model.
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On April 12 2013 03:54 The_Darkness wrote:
I feel like it's probably workable (from a legal perspective) and it doesn't pose the match-fixing worries that some are going on about here.
One concern I have is whether SC2 needs more tournaments. There were always lots of tournaments going on in WOL at any given time, perhaps too many and as a result some argued that SC2 fans suffered from over-saturation. That's about the only downside I see.
I do see signfiicant upside potential. For example, lots of people would tune in to see Flash v. Stephano or Flash v. Jaedong, even though none of those player is (yet) the best in the world in his respective race. I forget how many tuned in to watch the Whitera - Stephano showmatch but IIRC it was 20-30K, which is pretty significant. Having Flash, Stephano, etc. put up their own money would add a bit of drama to what essentially would be a show match. It might also be interesting to have "handicapped" events as well, with player A getting to pick all of the maps, or needing only to win 2 games in a best of 5, etc.
If there was an organization that could help the players negotiate the terms of the, what I'll call, showmatch (number of games, maps, handicaps, etc.) I agree that it could spice things up.
IGN's fightclub was in a way doing this with what amounted to weekly showmatches. However it didn't have the players putting up their own money.Another difference is that in this model the players could strike out on their own and set these matches up. In the fightclub model, whoever wins will face whoever IGN chose to pit him against in the next series. The more I write the more I think there could be something there. You need an organization that could line up the logistics, etc. Although they have a really great group of casters and personalities, NASL seems to be foundering a bit (in terms of viewers, if I'm not mistaken). Perhaps they might be interested in organizing something like this where they supply the casters, organize the stream and hype the event and the players put in say 80% of the prize money and negotiate, along with the NASL, the terms of the match.
i don't think oversatuartion would be the issue, as the main problem was that it was the same korean pros, and the same stale match-ups.
think of the sheer # of pro players, and think of how many people get recognized for winning. TLO has been playing some of the best starcraft of his life, and unless you watched his stream or followed his games, the only way you would know that he has been playing great is by his 5-0 group stage play, and his i think 9th place? finish.
It's criminal that there are so many great players that are so good at this game, but don't get ANY recognition becuase they aren't part of that elite 5% that consistantly win tournerments.
however, i'm sure TLO would be willing to play just about any european pro head up for a few hundred dollars.
so would a LOT of the high end level pros, like idra, forgg, lastshadow, suppy and others, who haven't had that 'break out performance' to make money and get exposure, without having to win a tournerment that they would have no chance in winning.
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On April 12 2013 04:03 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 03:43 ioCross wrote:
lol, dude just cuz i own 2 busineeses doesn't mean i'm rich.
Well, saying that i own them would be a lie, i have a 20% stock in an LLC that consists of 2 businesses, and we're thinking of expanding into the modular alarm monitoring for small businesses, but i don't even pay myself a salary right now.
granted i take care of all my bills and extras that i spend money on from whats i guess consitered 'petty cash', but i definatly don't have even enough money to afford my own house. I do own a house, but without my roommates pitching in for the bills/morgtage, i wouldn't be able to swing it on my own. especially now in this economy.
If our business had anything at all to do with computers or IT or anything, i could maybe try to put together some sort of business plan, but as the LLC consists of a liquor store/convinence store and a cellphone repair/hard water filter system store.
so yeah.... don't think hineken or anhiser busch would be interested in anything like that.
I have thought about it, and if in a few years im actually rich, i might partially sponsor a tour, or if there's a player i really like do what TB did with Crank.
But as far as legitamatly going for this, i have no presense in e-sports. The most i can do is try to get people engaged in this idea, and hope that someone with insight picks it up and thinks about it.
Imagine if day9 and husky came up with this idea, and they had incontrol n all h=h
the main problem, and this is why teamliquid is the exception, and why TL is one of the best websites out there period when it comes to generated content, is that there is a rabid base of intelligent people willing to put time in to produce content that would otherwise cost a LOT of money.
So as long as we have enough passionate people willing to make a few posters and stuff like that, this could go off without a hitch. Relying on free labour might not be the best business plan. TL's volunteers are very different from their paid staff in terms of content delivery and work. The moment you start having something like this, somebody other than the show-match players will be asking for a pay-cheque for services rendered. Be it the commentator(s), the production staff, the marketing people, etc, somebody else needs to get paid, and that comes directly out of the prize money and the stream revenues. The stream revenues themselves can't really be quantified immediately because most viewers will try and watch the VODs (and then, how do those work?). I feel that the idea isn't stupid; not at all. The thing is, in practice, there is a lot of behind-the-scenes work that goes into producing this type of endeavor. The gamers are the show, but without the producers, there is no show. When the producers are volunteers or fans, how long until they start feeling like slaves and stop volunteering their time so that a few key figures make money off of each showmatch? This is all wishful thinking until you start to associate people's time with money and actually create a realistic business model.
like i said, i'm not qualified or have the know-how to actually create a realisitc business plan. I have zero experience in the e-sports industry, (a lan party for friends in a store basement doesnt count  ) like you said, the importance of having a realisitc business plan is paramount. And i'm not going to claim i have the know-how or spare time/money to get this thing off the ground.
You gotta realize, i work 60+ hours a week. Granted i spend my time at work sitting in front of a computer watching netflix and trolling forms, but still when i go home, the last thing i'd want to do is work on a business model for basically letting pro gamers make money.
That would be for people who would actually be invested in this.
I was originally going to open a lan center a few years ago, im so very very glad i did not, as the 2 lan centers by my area have both shut down and filed for bankrupsy. But if i had a lan, i would maybe be thinking up a business plan, but like i said already, the only way this would work is if it was done as fan service..
and before you go on about how people wont do things for the love of the game, read the SSL article thats up on team liquid broodwar section. Dude single handedly revitalized competitive broodwar in korea, and his company has NOTHING to do with broodwar. apperently itembay is a company thats involved with F2P (free 2 play) model transactions in korea. So yea, there are people that do things out of love.
I'm not one of them tho :D
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On April 12 2013 04:09 ioCross wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 03:54 The_Darkness wrote:
I feel like it's probably workable (from a legal perspective) and it doesn't pose the match-fixing worries that some are going on about here.
One concern I have is whether SC2 needs more tournaments. There were always lots of tournaments going on in WOL at any given time, perhaps too many and as a result some argued that SC2 fans suffered from over-saturation. That's about the only downside I see.
I do see signfiicant upside potential. For example, lots of people would tune in to see Flash v. Stephano or Flash v. Jaedong, even though none of those player is (yet) the best in the world in his respective race. I forget how many tuned in to watch the Whitera - Stephano showmatch but IIRC it was 20-30K, which is pretty significant. Having Flash, Stephano, etc. put up their own money would add a bit of drama to what essentially would be a show match. It might also be interesting to have "handicapped" events as well, with player A getting to pick all of the maps, or needing only to win 2 games in a best of 5, etc.
If there was an organization that could help the players negotiate the terms of the, what I'll call, showmatch (number of games, maps, handicaps, etc.) I agree that it could spice things up.
IGN's fightclub was in a way doing this with what amounted to weekly showmatches. However it didn't have the players putting up their own money.Another difference is that in this model the players could strike out on their own and set these matches up. In the fightclub model, whoever wins will face whoever IGN chose to pit him against in the next series. The more I write the more I think there could be something there. You need an organization that could line up the logistics, etc. Although they have a really great group of casters and personalities, NASL seems to be foundering a bit (in terms of viewers, if I'm not mistaken). Perhaps they might be interested in organizing something like this where they supply the casters, organize the stream and hype the event and the players put in say 80% of the prize money and negotiate, along with the NASL, the terms of the match.
i don't think oversatuartion would be the issue, as the main problem was that it was the same korean pros, and the same stale match-ups. think of the sheer # of pro players, and think of how many people get recognized for winning. TLO has been playing some of the best starcraft of his life, and unless you watched his stream or followed his games, the only way you would know that he has been playing great is by his 5-0 group stage play, and his i think 9th place? finish. It's criminal that there are so many great players that are so good at this game, but don't get ANY recognition becuase they aren't part of that elite 5% that consistantly win tournerments. however, i'm sure TLO would be willing to play just about any european pro head up for a few hundred dollars. so would a LOT of the high end level pros, like idra, forgg, lastshadow, suppy and others, who haven't had that 'break out performance' to make money and get exposure, without having to win a tournerment that they would have no chance in winning.
Oversaturation is a big issue. Your time can only be devoted to so much. I'm sure that many players would like to get some money or recognition for the effort that they put in, but not if it could potentially lose them a lot of money.
You ask us to escape the mentality of only rewarding the top percentile who win a lot, as if they've done something wrong by winning a bunch of shit. Then you ask us to lend a helping hand (or dollar) to an idea where fans (who enjoy watching the best - but often settle) pony up a part of the money (which would go to something else SC2 related - but now goes to this) to facilitate an event where the winner gets most of the money, and the producers get a pat on the back.
I don't get how this is supposed to get off the ground. I'm not saying in any way that I wouldn't like to see it happen, I just don't understand where these legions of paying fans (on a match-by-match basis) are throwing money at one-time events where they don't get any incentives for having contributed in the first place.
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On April 12 2013 04:09 ioCross wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 03:54 The_Darkness wrote:
I feel like it's probably workable (from a legal perspective) and it doesn't pose the match-fixing worries that some are going on about here.
One concern I have is whether SC2 needs more tournaments. There were always lots of tournaments going on in WOL at any given time, perhaps too many and as a result some argued that SC2 fans suffered from over-saturation. That's about the only downside I see.
I do see signfiicant upside potential. For example, lots of people would tune in to see Flash v. Stephano or Flash v. Jaedong, even though none of those player is (yet) the best in the world in his respective race. I forget how many tuned in to watch the Whitera - Stephano showmatch but IIRC it was 20-30K, which is pretty significant. Having Flash, Stephano, etc. put up their own money would add a bit of drama to what essentially would be a show match. It might also be interesting to have "handicapped" events as well, with player A getting to pick all of the maps, or needing only to win 2 games in a best of 5, etc.
If there was an organization that could help the players negotiate the terms of the, what I'll call, showmatch (number of games, maps, handicaps, etc.) I agree that it could spice things up.
IGN's fightclub was in a way doing this with what amounted to weekly showmatches. However it didn't have the players putting up their own money.Another difference is that in this model the players could strike out on their own and set these matches up. In the fightclub model, whoever wins will face whoever IGN chose to pit him against in the next series. The more I write the more I think there could be something there. You need an organization that could line up the logistics, etc. Although they have a really great group of casters and personalities, NASL seems to be foundering a bit (in terms of viewers, if I'm not mistaken). Perhaps they might be interested in organizing something like this where they supply the casters, organize the stream and hype the event and the players put in say 80% of the prize money and negotiate, along with the NASL, the terms of the match.
i don't think oversatuartion would be the issue, as the main problem was that it was the same korean pros, and the same stale match-ups. think of the sheer # of pro players, and think of how many people get recognized for winning. TLO has been playing some of the best starcraft of his life, and unless you watched his stream or followed his games, the only way you would know that he has been playing great is by his 5-0 group stage play, and his i think 9th place? finish. It's criminal that there are so many great players that are so good at this game, but don't get ANY recognition becuase they aren't part of that elite 5% that consistantly win tournerments. however, i'm sure TLO would be willing to play just about any european pro head up for a few hundred dollars. so would a LOT of the high end level pros, like idra, forgg, lastshadow, suppy and others, who haven't had that 'break out performance' to make money and get exposure, without having to win a tournerment that they would have no chance in winning.
Which are why there are showmatches. You seem to believe that pro pool and SC2 are comparable in terms of wager culture. Pool, like poker, was built around bar wagers, Sc2 was not.
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EPT
