I both play and watch competitive pool, and for the past few years a trend thats been getting big is 'TAR' or The Action Report (www.theactionreport.com) where pros played other pros for anywhere from 5k to 10k of their own money, while being streamed. The players would split the stream, with the winner gettinig 30% of the stream revenue, while the loser gets 70%, so even if they lose the money, they would recoup at least a few hundred with the stream revenue.
. The website is pretty well done and slick looking, and now they are attracting big name pros, even the filipinos, which funny as it seems, are the koreans of the pool world. the top players are pinoy, and they come to american tournerments and take all their top prize monies i think the # of times an american has won the US open is like ... 3 since they started having international (filipino) players play in our stateside tourneys.
While gambling is pretty ingrained into pool culture, and not so much ESPORTS, i have heard of several pros (incontrol, idra, etc) who have played sc2 for money, and there is a lot of crossover in sc2 and poker.
I personally think that there is a great potential for this type of thing in sc2. Idra for example, would be a perfect person for this, as his skill level is definatly not indictive of tournerment winnings. Also, since most tournerments are won by the top tier pros, these 'action matches' would give the lesser known pros a chance in the spotlight, as im sure casters would love to get in on this, especially if the players are putting up their own money.
As an aside, i know from playing pool for money that as long as the game can be consitered a game of skill and not luck, it is NOT illegal to play it for money. They tried to shut down the Dallas Open back in 1989 and the players took it to court and won.
There is no way in hell an impartial jury/judge would declare starcraft2 to be anything but a game of skill, so there is an actual legal precident for this.
Think of all the grandmaster players who routinely beat the pros on ladder, but don't have any time or desire to be a pro player, but still thinks that they can hang with the pros.
And i know just about every single GM player who isnt a pro knows that they can beat pro players on any given day.. so lets give them a stage to prove it.
I'm sure there would be some players willing to put up to 100 or 200 dollars of their own money, and whoever runs it adds maybe a hundred, winner gets all and they split the stream revenue, its a workable business model. I know for a fact that there is bad blood for example between minigun and idra. I know both of them think that they are the superior player. Now we can give them a venue where they can 'put up or shut up' as they say. I think this would be a great impetus for unknown players to burst out onto the scene.
And just like how TAR (www.theactionreport.com) is pulling in top tier pros now, when they first started they were streaming local talent, such as the best player from one state playing the best player from another state for a few thousand, and now it has snowballed into the latest TAR stream having two players who can definatly be consitered to be part of the 10 best players in the world list (the equiv of flash vs life in a BO15 for $50.000) and you can start to see the hype potential.
Imagine, RooTLeyia (my fav toss) vs Suppy for $500. Idra vs well anyone would draw a crazy amount of viewers. players that have 'fallen off' in terms of recent results but are still good as hell, im sure they would love to try to win some money off a game that that they've played and practiced so much.
I can tell you right now that the professional pool career isn't supplimented by tournerment winnings. There aren't any 'teams' like in starcraft, and only the top maybe 10% of the players have any type of sponsorship, so if it wasn't for stuff like TAR and their own road trips and gambling shortsops and players that are good enough to go pro but dont(there are a lot, pool doesn't pay well as a professonal sport) playing for money can be the only way they can suplliment their income.
I guess the reason i'm posting this here, is that TEAMLIQUID is one of the few entities that can actually make this happen.
It wouldn't take much, as there are plenty of people that would be more than happy to create the posters, and this site already is a portal for everything starcraft, so it just seems so blindly obvious that it should already exist.
PLEASE PLEASE TEAMLIQUID TAKE THIS IDEA SERIOUSLY! IT SINGLE HANDEDLY REVITALIZED POOL IN THE PAST FEW YEARS!
EDIT!! <------- VERY IMPORTANT IF THIS TOPIC IS OF INTEREST TO YOU instead of individually replying to 4~5 different posts, i just want to add that there is a handicapping system in place for pool that can easily be switched over to sc2. For example, a few months ago a local player named Dennis Hatch played a pinoy pro Alex Pagulyan, which could be the equiv to say HuK playing Flash. Dennis got the 7ball, and had to go to 19, while Alex had to goto 25. The game spots are obvious, but for those that don't play pool 'getting the 7ball' means that when playing a game of 9ball, instead of winning by potting the 9ball, Dennis could also win by potting the 7ball or the 9ball, thus giving him an equal footing vs a player that he would normally win against.
Now this could easily be applied to starcraft2. Now lets take that match up, flash vs huk. Normally, 100/100 TL'ers would pick flash to win over huk in a bo13 for $1500. Now how about if huk got to choose every map, regardless of who won. Also, HuK has a 30 second head start. Flash has to keep his hands off his keyboard for the first 30 seconds of each game. Or flash has to offrace.
Also, while Flash has to win 7 to win the bo13, HuK only has to win 5. So basically they are starting the set out with a 2-0 lead on HuK. Now given those 'handicaps', how many of those same 100 TL'ers would still pick Flash to win?
I'm sure there would still be a majority of players who would say flash would win, but i'd wager at least 25~30% would say that HuK has a fighting chance given those handicaps. Now i'm not that creative of a person, TL has some of the smartest ppl of any sc or esport 'community' could come up with a handicap that would be fair to the person getting it.
I'm sure there are plenty of ways to handicap, maybe make them not use certain spells n abilities, (u could check hotkeys before hand to make sure they r unbound to ensure honesty) ... just saying, there's nothing saying these players have to play even,. eeven a 2 game diff would make players scared of playing certain players think that they will have a chance. You have to realize every pro, or even anyone who is good at this game is super confident in their abilities, and they all have huge egos. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing what they are doing. So even if they acknowledge that a player is better than them, in their minds, they always think if i could just have a tiny edge, i can beat him.
Even the Thorzain vs Creator game that went 3-2, im sure if they were doing the TAR format, Creator would've given Thorzain 1 game going bo5 to entice someone who creator knows he can win with the handicap given, and Thorzain thinks he can definatly win with a one game advantage, see.... it creates action! Its a great idea!!
Which SC2 pros have money to gamble away? The Starcraft scene won't grow out of the player's pocket, it needs advertisers and/or spectators to provide the income.
I dislike the idea of mixing gambling and Starcraft. Even if the participants are funding the payout, how can anyone trust the results of a game when the amount of money involved becomes a significant part of someone's income? It seems to me that a secondary betting pool would spring up and become the primary focus of these games.
Didnt Naniwa try to do that once?? I dont remember who was the other player involved but he wanted a 5K$ showmatch with him to prove he was badass or something but since 5K was to much the other guy declined or something, which seemed to be the idea behind the outrageous sum of 5K.
I also think it would be hilarious to watch Idra rage while losing a substantial amount of money. I think it could raise the comic value of said rage :D
Sc2 looks like a nice fit for gambling TL has already liquibets; why not setup the servers on an indian reserve and go ballz out on the gambling? but as said in previous comments, nobody really gets rich playing sc2 so money would need to come from sponsors or something...
edit: especially now during a time where you get more dota2 then sc2 feature streams... Im craving sc2 action... with the death of playhem and Ign I found that while their stuff was shitty sometimes, at least it was ''pro'' sc2 action.
On April 11 2013 10:06 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: I think that would/could be cool.
Didnt Naniwa try to do that once?? I dont remember who was the other player involved but he wanted a 5K$ showmatch with him to prove he was badass or something but since 5K was to much the other guy declined or something, which seemed to be the idea behind the outrageous sum of 5K.
I also think it would be hilarious to watch Idra rage while losing a substantial amount of money. I think it could raise the comic value of said rage :D
Sc2 looks like a nice fit for gambling TL has already liquibets; why not setup the servers on an indian reserve and go ballz out on the gambling? but as said in previous comments, nobody really gets rich playing sc2 so money would need to come from sponsors or something...
edit: especially now during a time where you get more dota2 then sc2 feature streams... Im craving sc2 action... with the death of playhem and Ign I found that while their stuff was shitty sometimes, at least it was ''pro'' sc2 action.
Haha... that "other guy" was Stephano, who is probably one of the few pros successful enough to afford 5k.
I think gambling on MLG/GSL and other major tournaments could be really sucessful. I think it'd bring more consistant viewing and make it alot more interesting even if the games themselves are stale. However i feel that Koreans would give too low odds ;(
And i know just about every single GM player who isnt a pro knows that they can beat pro players on any given day.. so lets give them a stage to prove it.
pro players would never agree to it. they all have an ego that says that they are better versus ladder heroes who would never have a chance in an actual competitive setting.
Fighting games have been doing this for years. The things is in the fighting game scene, there are so many offline tournaments and player interaction where you can easily set up money matches in person and observers of the match are free to take on side bets. We dont have enough offline tournaments and bring your own PC tournaments to have the opportunity to do this.
On April 11 2013 11:35 SkimGuy wrote: Is everyone forgetting what happened with Savior and a bunch of other progamers? Cmon guys...
Except that has nothing to do with this!
Sure it does. Say we put 50k on player A to play player B. Then the broker or whoever tell player A to lose and he will give player A 25k. Then player A lose on purpose and we're out 50k while player A and whoever he made the deal with gained 25k each.
And i know just about every single GM player who isnt a pro knows that they can beat pro players on any given day.. so lets give them a stage to prove it.
pro players would never agree to it. they all have an ego that says that they are better versus ladder heroes who would never have a chance in an actual competitive setting.
Or maybe they will and crush said ladder heroes and take their $$ which is the more likely outcome for a match.
On April 11 2013 11:35 SkimGuy wrote: Is everyone forgetting what happened with Savior and a bunch of other progamers? Cmon guys...
Nothing wrong with betting on matches. It's no different than sports betting. Match fixing is a whole different thing...
Yeah, but when the money you can gain from match-fixing a couple of high profile showmatches is larger than your yearly salary, it's almost a guarantee that someone will abuse it.
I like this idea, would give unknown gosu's the chance to make a name off of someone famous but inferior aswell as the money obviously. Also it's a good way to settle grudges like Idra and Minigun and if done right, the stream revenue will offset the risk as op said. Sponsors and regulation would make it legit but my only worry is starcraft doesn't really have much of a history of gambling, so scumbags could ruin it.
On April 11 2013 11:41 phodacbiet wrote:Sure it does. Say we put 50k on player A to play player B. Then the broker or whoever tell player A to lose and he will give player A 25k. Then player A lose on purpose and we're out 50k while player A and whoever he made the deal with gained 25k each.
The OP for this thread isn't talking about spectators betting on the outcome of a match, he's talking about pros putting their own money up against each other in a boX, showing ads or selling subscriptions, and splitting the stream revenue between the two players as a way for them to generate hype/income outside of regular ladder streams or major tournaments.
Gambling among professionals in every sport is illegal for a reason. It causes rampant match fixing, cheating, corruption etc. This idea is not only bad it isn't legal in many countries and would be wildly unpopular among the SC2 fanbase.
On April 11 2013 11:35 SkimGuy wrote: Is everyone forgetting what happened with Savior and a bunch of other progamers? Cmon guys...
Nothing wrong with betting on matches. It's no different than sports betting. Match fixing is a whole different thing...
Yeah, but when the money you can gain from match-fixing a couple of high profile showmatches is larger than your yearly salary, it's almost a guarantee that someone will abuse it.
just because something might influence someone to abuse it doesn't mean it's "no different from x"
On April 11 2013 11:35 SkimGuy wrote: Is everyone forgetting what happened with Savior and a bunch of other progamers? Cmon guys...
Except that has nothing to do with this!
Sure it does. Say we put 50k on player A to play player B. Then the broker or whoever tell player A to lose and he will give player A 25k. Then player A lose on purpose and we're out 50k while player A and whoever he made the deal with gained 25k each.
But having bets between people playing a match has nothing to do with match-fixing...
On April 11 2013 11:33 raybasto wrote: Fighting games have been doing this for years. The things is in the fighting game scene, there are so many offline tournaments and player interaction where you can easily set up money matches in person and observers of the match are free to take on side bets. We dont have enough offline tournaments and bring your own PC tournaments to have the opportunity to do this.
The Smash community also does this alot during tournaments. Although, nothing close to 50k but I like to moneymatch people for like 10 bucks now and then just for fun!
I would prefer more financial stability over more volatility and I think pro-gamers do too. Really hope this would get banned by Blizzard if it ever started to come up in any big way.
Tbh I see no good arguments why this shouldn't happen.
The people saying this shouldn't be done because of matchfixing are really wrong, due to the fact that the only bets assumed in the OP would be the bets of the 2 players (example: MVP plays vs MC trying to prove he'm better. Both of them shell out 5k, with the winner taking it all. There would be no 3rd party, other than the website involved with transferring the money/setting up the game and none of the 2 would have any reason to lose, unless they didn't care about the money.)
As for the ones saying SC2 pro's are too poor for this, I ask, who are you to say this? Do you personally know that most SC2 pro's are too poor to sustain themselves if they lose say 100$ in a month? Even if this is the case, why does it matter? The pro's who don't have the money should simply not play, while the ones who do could (and should) enjoy this service (if it becomes reality, that is).
On April 11 2013 17:19 Daswollvieh wrote: I would prefer more financial stability over more volatility and I think pro-gamers do too. Really hope this would get banned by Blizzard if it ever started to come up in any big way.
This already has precedent in the FGC and if anything building publicity over money matches in SC2 would help its popularity, not hurt it. I'm sure Blizzard wants to keep a hand in any big tournament with sponsors and whatnot, but if pro X wants to put $5k of their own money up against player Y with their own $5k, why would Blizzard want to step in and stop it? If said stream can bring in viewers, who's to say that some of those viewers maybe aren't familiar with SC2 and decide to pick it up afterwards?
I like the idea. Would actually be cool if there were some kind of show who organizes these matches between players and creating storylines through these.
On April 11 2013 09:57 PatchJerk wrote: Which SC2 pros have money to gamble away? The Starcraft scene won't grow out of the player's pocket, it needs advertisers and/or spectators to provide the income.
I dislike the idea of mixing gambling and Starcraft. Even if the participants are funding the payout, how can anyone trust the results of a game when the amount of money involved becomes a significant part of someone's income? It seems to me that a secondary betting pool would spring up and become the primary focus of these games.
they dont gamble money away, all the money they bet stays in the scene and they add some additional one from the stream revenues
I been gambling with sc2 for a long time now using pinnacle. I think this is a great idea but is all up to the players to organize this. Nobody can force them to do it.
On April 11 2013 09:23 ioCross wrote: we can give them a venue where they can 'put up or shut up' as they say.
Yep... winning one series in a showmatch -CLEARLY- makes you the overall better player. I hate it when that kind of stupid logic gets thrown around.
' Never actually said that.
Reading comprehnsion i'd give u a 1/10. SIlly attitude regarding my post.... i'd give u a 8/10.
This isnt about something that makes people want to take chances. Ur telling me that a 200 player deep torney, where there are 10 top koreans in contention, where the avg to good pro has no chance of making any decent money, why not give them a veune where they can actually make some money?
And according to your silly logic, one tournerement final has absoolutely no impactg on a player's 'rank' anway as the data sample is too small.
one set in a series isn't enough to showcase who the better player is. Obviously. Now if a player who is top50 GM and wins vs pros a lot, might be better than some of the lower tier pros.and might be willing to put up up to $100 or more to prove that he can beat say RooTFitzy, or one of the new FXO NA ppl...
point is that this is Wayyyy more than any type of like ranking system for who the 'better' player is. That is what this site rankings and TLPD rankings are for. This has nothign to do with the 'overall better player' n everything to do with how good someone is, and how much they are willing to put up to prove itr
On April 11 2013 11:35 SkimGuy wrote: Is everyone forgetting what happened with Savior and a bunch of other progamers? Cmon guys...
this is absolutely nothing to do with matchfixing.
if teamliqiuid was the ones behind the setup of the showmatches, and put up some moneyh, i think it would lend enough legitamacy to it to the whole thing...
On April 11 2013 11:35 SkimGuy wrote: Is everyone forgetting what happened with Savior and a bunch of other progamers? Cmon guys...
this is absolutely nothing to do with matchfixing.
if teamliqiuid was the ones behind the setup of the showmatches, and put up some moneyh, i think it would lend enough legitamacy to it to the whole thing...
i relaly do see this being long term viable.
This is why nobody is taking you seriously. You are saying, "this is a great idea, somebody else (Team Liquid) should do it." If its such a good idea, go out and put your own time and money into it and tell us how it works out.
Gambling could kill a sport, we seen a lot of players and teams who gamble on their own defeat when they played against weaker player. Chinese mafiosi gave lot of moneys to soccer players, swimmer and sportsperson to lost their race/match in order to makes a lot of money. So i'm not full enthusiastic about gambling in gaming...
On April 11 2013 16:51 PredY wrote: i thought KT_Action was cought in a casino or smth..
You and me both man, you and me both.
On topic I agree that this would be a great thing to see from a spectators PoV, but players would never agree to it. Unfortunately there aren't many grudges that pop up in SC2 that players would act on, unlike fighting games. And for grudges that do actually exist, you'd be stretched to find people who would part with their money.
When I'm setting up showmatches and the sponsor would like a 100-0 split on the match, you'd be surprised at how many players I actually have to go through to find someone willing to play for a couple hundred bucks. And this is sponsor money, people decline on the off-chance that they lose even though all they are parting with is an hour of their time. The SC2 pro scene is too concerned with their image that this would never pan out. Hell would freeze over before IdrA would play a grudgematch against Minigun out of pocket.
On April 11 2013 11:35 SkimGuy wrote: Is everyone forgetting what happened with Savior and a bunch of other progamers? Cmon guys...
this is absolutely nothing to do with matchfixing.
if teamliqiuid was the ones behind the setup of the showmatches, and put up some moneyh, i think it would lend enough legitamacy to it to the whole thing...
i relaly do see this being long term viable.
So you want someone else to use their money and time on your idea?
On April 11 2013 20:55 Wertheron wrote: Gambling could kill a sport, we seen a lot of players and teams who gamble on their own defeat when they played against weaker player. Chinese mafiosi gave lot of moneys to soccer players, swimmer and sportsperson to lost their race/match in order to makes a lot of money. So i'm not full enthusiastic about gambling in gaming...
I love people who clearly have not read the op or any of the thread. Your an idiot.
This is an awesome idea I hope gets done. What would be cool is if you could do small bets through the website and have a page to find matches for 5$-50$ and play for money that way. This gives people an avenue to make money playing without it being a huge show match and lower tier players can get involved.
i love how the only people that are against this idea are also the ones that don't even read what i actually wrote, and just blab on about their own stupid adgenda.
READ THE DAMN POST BEFORE YOU TROLL ! JESUS!
And for anyone who wants to know, the general interest in pool at the early to mid 2000's was at it's worst doldrums. Poolrooms were closing faster than you could say *cough illegal gambling from poker and slot machines" , and honestly these action streams single handledly kept a spot alive until we (pool players) were able to find enough stable sponsors for a normal 'pro tour' again.
We had one back in the late 80's and early 90's, it was sponsored by camel, it was called the PBT or Professional Billiards Tour. Well, the best player at the time was this crazy american player named Earl Strickland, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Strickland , who was like, in the 80's, was definatly a 'bonjwa' in pool. He won his first pro toruenerment when he was 15, and by the time he was 18 he was consitered the strongest money player in america. For a good year or so he didn't lose a single non-handicapped gambling match. This part is 100% true, on the weekend of i belive the Reno Open one year in the early 90's, he won that tournerment, on the same day they went out to celebrate, ended up playing bowling, and he bowled a perfect 300.. (there are mutliple copies of the score sheets floating around the pool themed internets, just like the flash MEME's) and the next day he played scratch golf with the orginizers of the tournerment and shot a 72.
So yeah, dude was a beast, but he was also like, pool's verion of Idra. He would rage if he went to a tournerment, and a spectator ended up taking a flash photo during his shot. He would stop playing in the MIDDLE OF A TELEVISED MATCH, point to the culprit, mind you, while this was being filmed for national TV, and refuse to finish til the guy was removed from the stands. There were multiple tournerments he was thrown out of for general bad behavior, when an inferior player was able to beat him in a set, which happened occasionally, (think of the random games flash loses) he would explode on the player, calling him a lucky f*ck, how his grandmom could've won with the luck that he was getting, how much of a peice of sh*t the opponent is/played like, ..... he makes idra seem like a little girl in a tea party for chirst sakes.
But ya, since he was the best player at the time, (think of a mindmeld between savior/flash/nada/bisu(when he was good)) thats how good strickland was. So u could NOT not invite him to the tournements, but he kept making such an ass out of himself, and finally after one incident involving him breaking his cue over the table and walking out on the match/tournerment, (LOL JUST LIKE IDRA, Earl would leave matches when it was still like, tied at 8-8, but if the opponent made a luck shot, or if Earl got a bad roll(like if the ball he was aiming for ended up rolling just an inch too far and hid it behind another ball) he would just get pissed off and leave the tournerment. I think there was like at least 10 major professional tournerments that he just straight up walked out on due to various reasons. (crowd was heckling him, missed an easy shot, opponent made a lucky shot, ref made a ruling that he didnt like, etc)
Anyway, the backstory is important to know why PBT dropped sponsoring professional pool just based on one individual. And it just happened that this guy was THE best player by FAR. If i were to make an anolgous sc compariosion, he had flash's unflappability and stability and macro, savior's ability to win, bisu's mutitasking abilities, .. basically he was so good that he was the face of professional pool. And camel cigarettes dropped the tour b/c of that one guy.
Wow i really got off topic, but the point im trying to make, is that these action report things pretty much singlehandledly revitalized pool. and kept a (professionally) dead spot alive long enough for them to ride out the PBT bullshit, and earl got too old to be a contender in the tournerments, and now we are starting to get several well known companies as sponsors, but we as pool players have a long way to go until we are at somehting as professional as the PBT again.
Once again im rambling, but i really really do think this would be a boon to SC2, and TEALMLIQUID could actually make this happen!!!
On April 11 2013 10:39 -TGO- wrote: Gambling is just plain illegal in the states around me and my state.
And pro's hardly even have enough money to sometimes travel to an event anyways.
If you had bothered to read what i had said, there was already a case taken to supreme court, when the FBI raided the 1972? dallas open. The case went to court, and the pool players and tournerment sponsers won the case as the judge declared that pocket billiards was without a doubt a game of skill and not chance.
It is NOT i repeat IS NOT illegal to make wagers on games of skill in this country.
Think of all the online sports betting that is a HUGE HUGE HUGE market, and so are online casinos.
If it wasn't for those few redshirt f@ggots at full tilt, internet poker would still be booming right now.
Once again, IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO WAGER ON GAMES OF SKILL IN THIS COUNTRY. THE CASE WAS TAKEN TO THE SUPREME COURT AND WON.
Once again im rambling, but i really really do think this would be a boon to SC2, and TEALMLIQUID could actually make this happen!!!
Ok here you go again. If you have a good idea, go do it yourself rather than insist on someone else doing it for you. You are like one of those kids on the bnet forums trying to get map makers to build them a mod to prove their theory that the game would be balanced if hydras were moved to tier 1. If your idea isn't worth your own time and money, why should anyone else care.
Once again im rambling, but i really really do think this would be a boon to SC2, and TEALMLIQUID could actually make this happen!!!
Ok here you go again. If you have a good idea, go do it yourself rather than insist on someone else doing it for you. You are like one of those kids on the bnet forums trying to get map makers to build them a mod to prove their theory that the game would be balanced if hydras were moved to tier 1. If your idea isn't worth your own time and money, why should anyone else care.
hey douchebag, i don't run a starcraft community website that's world famous. Nor do i have access to anyone in the pro gaming community, or know anyone aside from a few NA ladder allstars. Like i said at the end, the reason i posted this here, is that people that ACTUALLY have the connections, and the assets and the ability to get this ball rolling read this site.
I wouldn't even know where to start in talking to players, teams, sponsors, casters, and people in general.
So smartass...
you want to talk comparisions? you're one of those guys who just see something and automatically hate on it, ur one of those OMG SC2 IS DYING CUZ LOL HAS MORE STREAMS, and ur the general negative side of the internet, where nerds get to say stuff that they never would IRL cuz they don't have to worry about getting gutchecked.
if i had the money/resources, i would definatly be sponsoring players, even if its just so i could see my fav players at the tourney im watching.
So far, i've orginized 3 local lans, with the last one having ~50 ppl, most of them having never played sc2 before.
Now we have a semi-regular group of players who play starcraft2 competitvely. I had several players who had never even played sc2, who are in diamond / masters, and follow it religiously, and also have signed up for the paid MLG streams.
I get as many people as i can interested in e-sports and sc2 in general cuz im passionate about it.
What have you done at all except talk down on people on the internet?
Wasn't this what Playhem was supposed to be all about?
Also, I'm not sure if playing StarCraft against someone for money is gambling. I prefer to think that like pool, Starcraft isn't a game of chance when multiple games are played (ie: Bo7). The number of games played reduces the "chance" factor so that the better player is usually the winner.
Either way... we saw what happened to Playhem. People cared more about playing in their silly dailies for chump change than battling other players for money (you think nerds have ladder anxiety, wait until money's on the line). As far as the idea, I don't think it's terrible, but you take the facts that people live in different timezones, stream money really isn't the greatest source for "recoup" revenue over the course of one series, and there is the potential to lose and I reckon it doesn't catch on. I'm using Playhem as an example of this, where it was possible, the organization even gave people free money (every day - across many divisions) and they still didn't use it.
EDIT: To the OP: If you didn't want the TL:DR crowd coming in here and misconstruing everything, maybe you shouldn't have put the word "gambling" into the thread title when you clearly meant "wagering".
if anyone knows how to play pool, then you would realize that there really is not much 'gambling', as the way people match up with handicaps, its as easily handicappable as golf or scratch golf is.
ask any of the sc2 players who also play poker, there is millions of dollars to be made in just gambling scratch golf.
saying 'gambling' is almost a misnomer, becuase the only 'gambling' or relying on luck is still skill based. Think of how u can get lucky in sc2. The opponent scans u and barely misses the dark shrine building, and gets owned by DT's. Terran's going for a doom drop, and happens to park his dropships where an obs just happens to be. TaIL's blind DT drop, you could say there was a lot of luck involved in the build, but it was more calculated risk than luck.
For the 500th time, IT IS LEGAL IN THIS COUNTRY TO BET MONEY ON GAMES OF SKILL!! LEGAL! LEGAL! THINK OF FOOTBALL BETTING SITES AND ONLINE CASINOS AND HORSE RACING!
ioCross wrote: READ THE DAMN POST BEFORE YOU TROLL ! JESUS! LOL JUST LIKE IDRA, Earl would leave matches when it was still like, tied at 8-8 TEALMLIQUID could actually make this happen!!! If it wasn't for those few redshirt f@ggots at full tilt, internet poker would still be booming right now. Where nerds get to say stuff that they never would IRL cuz they don't have to worry about getting gutchecked. What have you done at all except talk down on people on the internet?
I get the feeling your charged, passionate ranting isn't really contributing very much to the discussion. Why don't you just ignore everybody who says "This is gambling; I'm a mormon." and have a more respectful discussion with the rest of us? You seem to be getting really worked up over what you consider to be troll posts and addressing them writing as if you're screaming yourself blue in the face and ripping all your hair out. The mods are pretty strict here, and you can't just shit all over everyone who posts in your thread and ignore people who are trying to have a discussion.
Once again im rambling, but i really really do think this would be a boon to SC2, and TEALMLIQUID could actually make this happen!!!
Ok here you go again. If you have a good idea, go do it yourself rather than insist on someone else doing it for you. You are like one of those kids on the bnet forums trying to get map makers to build them a mod to prove their theory that the game would be balanced if hydras were moved to tier 1. If your idea isn't worth your own time and money, why should anyone else care.
If he doesn't have the ressources to fulfill it but still believes the idea has a lot of potential if executed by the right personel, then it makes a lot of sense to ask others to do it.
Once again im rambling, but i really really do think this would be a boon to SC2, and TEALMLIQUID could actually make this happen!!!
Ok here you go again. If you have a good idea, go do it yourself rather than insist on someone else doing it for you. You are like one of those kids on the bnet forums trying to get map makers to build them a mod to prove their theory that the game would be balanced if hydras were moved to tier 1. If your idea isn't worth your own time and money, why should anyone else care.
hey douchebag, i don't run a starcraft community website that's world famous. Nor do i have access to anyone in the pro gaming community, or know anyone aside from a few NA ladder allstars. Like i said at the end, the reason i posted this here, is that people that ACTUALLY have the connections, and the assets and the ability to get this ball rolling read this site.
I wouldn't even know where to start in talking to players, teams, sponsors, casters, and people in general.
For starters. I'm not criticizing your idea. I am criticizing how you are presenting yourself and your idea. If you posted that you are working on a site to facilitate GMs and progamers to wager money on streamed matches against each other and were looking for help, you would get a radically different response from everyone.
P.S. It's also not nice to call people douchebags.
If he doesn't have the ressources to fulfill it but still believes the idea has a lot of potential if executed by the right personel, then it makes a lot of sense to ask others to do it.
No I don't disagree, but I think completely handing off responsibility for the idea is kind of lazy and unserious.
On April 12 2013 01:39 Miragee wrote: I don't like money, I don't like gambling and I don't like money, so I don't like the idea.
It's not gambling if you know who will win.
Ah, that's the reason why every single person has 100% in LB right? o.O
Also: If anyone knows who will win what is the point in putting money into it? Than the Loser (because everyone know who the loser will be before the match) could just pay what ever amount you want to the winner without playing it out.
and i'm actually responding and discussing with people who actually have intellectual or even something to say other than 'oh this is stupid trolololl' ....
sorry for calling u a dbag ddtroach, but you gotta admit that if people on fourms had to register their real names like in south korea, the internet would be a much better place.
getting back in topic, even if the pros themselves don't have money, im sure the team sponsors, friends, or even fans who have the money would want to pony up to see a match-up. Say MC has a open call for any forigener to play him for $1000. No takers right? Now say MC is willing to give any forigener 3 games in a race to 9, (best of 18 for sc players, i dont know why sc does 'sets' in best ofs, instead of races, its a lot easier to understand races than best ofs imo), then players that have gotten close to beating MC before n know with a slight edge they could beat him, would step up to play, or would have sponsors or like i said even fans pitch in to put them in.
In the 9-ball US open 2005, John Schmitt, who is a pretty good american pro, (prob put him up there with idra, in the aspect of being really good with no tangible results) he went on azbilliards.com , which is the pool equiv. of team liquid, and got about 40 ppl to put him into the tourney, just like REDDIT did with MKP a few years back. Well, just like MKP, John Schmitt actually went and won the US OPEN that year, it was like, pool's feel good story of the year.
Anyway the point being, with a proper handicapping system in place, im sure u would have a LOT more pros be willing to play other pros.
Case in point, and i hate to keep comparing pool to starcraft2, but while there are the 'cream of the crop' a la flash, parting, and a few others who consistantly get results in the tournerments, there are literally hundreds of other pros who are just a few shades below them in terms of skill, but b/c of that, don't get ANY results, or make any money, and end up getting burned out and quitting.
If something like this was in place, where action matches were streamed and viewed, like say if day9 got on the bandwagon, (im pretty sure he's wayyy too vanella to want to do this tho) i think that it would really help the pro players who are good enough to play at that high level, but lets be honest.... sc2.. unless ur winning tournerments, ur not relevant.
This is a way for players that we KNOW are GREAT, Idra, Leyia, Moonglade, Ret, lastshadow, suppy, scarlett, etc etc etc but just cant seem to get there in those tourneys to get known, and get more exposure.
On April 12 2013 02:12 ioCross wrote: and i'm actually responding and discussing with people who actually have intellectual or even something to say other than 'oh this is stupid trolololl' ....
sorry for calling u a dbag ddtroach, but you gotta admit that if people on fourms had to register their real names like in south korea, the internet would be a much better place.
getting back in topic, even if the pros themselves don't have money, im sure the team sponsors, friends, or even fans who have the money would want to pony up to see a match-up. Say MC has a open call for any forigener to play him for $1000. No takers right? Now say MC is willing to give any forigener 3 games in a race to 9, (best of 18 for sc players, i dont know why sc does 'sets' in best ofs, instead of races, its a lot easier to understand races than best ofs imo), then players that have gotten close to beating MC before n know with a slight edge they could beat him, would step up to play, or would have sponsors or like i said even fans pitch in to put them in.
In the 9-ball US open 2005, John Schmitt, who is a pretty good american pro, (prob put him up there with idra, in the aspect of being really good with no tangible results) he went on azbilliards.com , which is the pool equiv. of team liquid, and got about 40 ppl to put him into the tourney, just like REDDIT did with MKP a few years back. Well, just like MKP, John Schmitt actually went and won the US OPEN that year, it was like, pool's feel good story of the year.
Anyway the point being, with a proper handicapping system in place, im sure u would have a LOT more pros be willing to play other pros.
Case in point, and i hate to keep comparing pool to starcraft2, but while there are the 'cream of the crop' a la flash, parting, and a few others who consistantly get results in the tournerments, there are literally hundreds of other pros who are just a few shades below them in terms of skill, but b/c of that, don't get ANY results, or make any money, and end up getting burned out and quitting.
If something like this was in place, where action matches were streamed and viewed, like say if day9 got on the bandwagon, (im pretty sure he's wayyy too vanella to want to do this tho) i think that it would really help the pro players who are good enough to play at that high level, but lets be honest.... sc2.. unless ur winning tournerments, ur not relevant.
This is a way for players that we KNOW are GREAT, Idra, Leyia, Moonglade, Ret, lastshadow, suppy, scarlett, etc etc etc but just cant seem to get there in those tourneys to get known, and get more exposure.
On the topic of real names, I think I've gone and done that accidentally.
I'm just recommending that you calm down in general. I didn't even think you were talking to me; just wasting your energy on people who didn't come here for anything more than a cute one-liner.
My feelings on this matter are that Playhem tried it, and even had some popularity for a while. It ended up not really working out for them, and Teamliquid became the very place where Playhem was community blacklisted (not sure how familiar you are with the scene, but the moment Playhem stopped giving out free money everyone jumped ship).
Now, if you expect Teamliquid to act as a Playhem wannabe organization, only with a business model that doesn't involve giving out free money with no actual revenue source, then so be it. Just don't say I didn't warn you.
Pro-gamers aren't exactly rolling in disposable money that they're willing to put on the line in the numbers you're talking. Usually, there's some kind of sponsorship or tournament that acts as the source of the money. From the sheer perspective of the even organizer (let's say it's Teamliquid); what's in it for them? Where do they get compensated for the advertising, the exposure, the brand-name association, or providing the platform (the stream & the commentary)? Are the pro-gamers going to also pay them? Does the money come from the stream?
It's very easy to call people negative, but it's just as easy to say something borders on unrealistic and unsustainable when it's proven to be very difficult to make work.
On April 12 2013 02:18 ioCross wrote: im not familiar with playhem, what exactly did they try to do?
Playhem was(is?) a website where people could organize tourneys or show-matches either for money, or for free. It hosted most EA sports titles on console as well as SC2, which was seemingly its focal point (streams & dedicated dailies where players of any rank could play for money). I don't remember there being that much support for the other games - SC2 was really what they seemed to get most of their traffic from.
What they did was give people with no money in their accounts the opportunity to have money in their accounts via dailies.
Yes, you could inject your own money into your Playhem account via Paypal, but no, I don't think anybody did this.
Playhem had the ability to "Challenge" other players to a "Head-to-Head" match either for Playhem points or money. They were very careful to make the service unavailable in places where people weren't smart enough to differentiate between a wager and a gamble.
Basically, they provided EXACTLY the framework you depict- one where people can go and play each other for money, pro or amateur. They even had a featured stream on TL once upon a time with casters - you might remember PlayhemTV.
EDIT: The story ends as you'd imagine. People used the service for the dailies, and withdrew the money, instead of playing against their fellow money-makers for more money. Over time, they'd given away all their money, people could no longer withdraw money for a while, and between Reddit and TL, a shit-storm brewed that killed them off.
hmm... yeah that pretty much seems to be the gist of it, im sure there was some reason or another involved that it didnt work, as the actual framework that i suggest can be done wit virtually zero overhead, as the pros themselves pony up the cash (either by sponsors, friends/fans, backers or whatever), and the people who would do the content (TL or NASL or even a start-up) would have to just have the man-hours to make graphics and promotions, and a website and ranking systems... it can all be done fairly cheaply, or with zero cost at all. maybe it was b/c they (playheim) had too aggressive of a business model, or even tried to run it as a business model that would have made them money.
this would be enitrely fan service, any money made from revune streams would goto the players, or to the content producers.
I KNOW for a fact that there would be people willing to put in the man hours as fanservice, and some of the lesser known casters (madals, duckville, etc) would love to get in on the casting action just to get thier name out there.
Baiscally, from a business standpoint, i believe the model is sound, and there are prime examples of this model working.
Also, im 30 yrs old n own 2 businesses, in case anyone wanted to troll on about how im some 16 year old kid typing from his moms basement.
On April 11 2013 11:35 SkimGuy wrote: Is everyone forgetting what happened with Savior and a bunch of other progamers? Cmon guys...
Except that has nothing to do with this!
Sure it does. Say we put 50k on player A to play player B. Then the broker or whoever tell player A to lose and he will give player A 25k. Then player A lose on purpose and we're out 50k while player A and whoever he made the deal with gained 25k each.
We aren't putting any money up. The people playing are. Read the original post lol. And why would anybody have to lose on purpose even if we were putting up the money? They could just have agreed to split the money no matter who won.
Playhem's business model must have been terribly flawed to have worked out the way it did. I have no argument there, because frankly, I'm not entirely sure why they suddenly fell off the face of the earth - they just did.
As a business owner (owner of 2 businesses, as you say) I'm now not sure how you don't have the resources to start up this idea. If you're able to actually break down the start-up costs and form a concrete business plan, you should be able to develop this further than a mere hypothetical scenario. Surely, with a financial backer (one or both of your businesses), YOU could make this happen. Once it actually happens, you come back here to TeamLiquid and advertise (you can get one of those sponsored threads and a featured stream).
The thing about businesses, as you should know, is that they need a source of revenue to be sustainable and mainly, for the purpose of marketing and expanding the brand. What good is it if the service exists, but makes no money for the service provider? I find it hard to believe that anybody would be willing to do this merely as a labour of love.
thank you lam.... i swear, its like most people don't even read the damn post, and just assume that im saying something that they would disagree with..
i remember my sociology prof used to say social media and seamless communication will dumb us down by multitudes, and i daresay that he's more right than i care to admit.
I thought I remember grudge matches like this happening in the past... I think it's a fun Idea but it is hard for the players to put up much money I think.
Personally i'm not a big fan of the gambling side, but there is nothing like a good grudge match to foster some competitiveness
I would have it set up like Kickstarter. The Pro's don't put down their own money, people can vote with their wallets on which matches they want to see. If the money pool rises above a certain criteria within a number of days, the match becomes a reality, and people who funded it are giving exclusive access to the live stream of the game aswell as a VOD.
If the money doesnt hit the neccessary level, they are refunded.
The winnings are split amount the two players, loser gets 15%, winner gets 85%.
lol, dude just cuz i own 2 busineeses doesn't mean i'm rich.
Well, saying that i own them would be a lie, i have a 20% stock in an LLC that consists of 2 businesses, and we're thinking of expanding into the modular alarm monitoring for small businesses, but i don't even pay myself a salary right now.
granted i take care of all my bills and extras that i spend money on from whats i guess consitered 'petty cash', but i definatly don't have even enough money to afford my own house. I do own a house, but without my roommates pitching in for the bills/morgtage, i wouldn't be able to swing it on my own. especially now in this economy.
If our business had anything at all to do with computers or IT or anything, i could maybe try to put together some sort of business plan, but as the LLC consists of a liquor store/convinence store and a cellphone repair/hard water filter system store.
so yeah.... don't think hineken or anhiser busch would be interested in anything like that.
I have thought about it, and if in a few years im actually rich, i might partially sponsor a tour, or if there's a player i really like do what TB did with Crank.
But as far as legitamatly going for this, i have no presense in e-sports. The most i can do is try to get people engaged in this idea, and hope that someone with insight picks it up and thinks about it.
Imagine if day9 and husky came up with this idea, and they already have the ability to contact other pros, and people in the business who could arrainge such things.
the main problem, and this is why teamliquid is the exception, and why TL is one of the best websites out there period when it comes to generated content, is that there is a rabid base of intelligent people willing to put time in to produce content that would otherwise cost a LOT of money.
So as long as we have enough passionate people willing to make a few posters and stuff like that, this could go off without a hitch.
On April 12 2013 03:42 nottapro wrote: I would have it set up like Kickstarter. The Pro's don't put down their own money, people can vote with their wallets on which matches they want to see. If the money pool rises above a certain criteria within a number of days, the match becomes a reality, and people who funded it are giving exclusive access to the live stream of the game aswell as a VOD.
If the money doesnt hit the neccessary level, they are refunded.
The winnings are split amount the two players, loser gets 15%, winner gets 85%.
This diminishes the interest in rigging the match, as the pro's have very to gain by throwing the match, it is community sponsored tournament.
well the idea here is that the pros themselves pony up the money, wether its from their own tournerment winnings, or from the team they are on, or even if its from various fans who really want to see the match-up, but the actual money being wagered is the players, and unless a florishing underground gambling community arises from these sc action matches, some instance like savior would NEVER happen, simply because there isn't any money in it.
What savior was doing was like Tiger Woods convincing other touring pros to throw certain matches so the people that gamble on the side can win one way or the other.
That would never happen with this, unless it got big enough that there were acutally people willing to bet large sums of money on the outcome of the match.
Once again, the money being wagered is by the players, and any money made from the stream revenue should theoretically be going right back into content production, exposure, etc. etc. et.
I feel like it's probably workable (from a legal perspective) and it doesn't pose the match-fixing worries that some are going on about here.
One concern I have is whether SC2 needs more tournaments. There were always lots of tournaments going on in WOL at any given time, perhaps too many and as a result some argued that SC2 fans suffered from over-saturation. That's about the only downside I see.
I do see signfiicant upside potential. For example, lots of people would tune in to see Flash v. Stephano or Flash v. Jaedong, even though none of those player is (yet) the best in the world in his respective race. I forget how many tuned in to watch the Whitera - Stephano showmatch but IIRC it was 20-30K, which is pretty significant. Having Flash, Stephano, etc. put up their own money would add a bit of drama to what essentially would be a show match. It might also be interesting to have "handicapped" events as well, with player A getting to pick all of the maps, or needing only to win 2 games in a best of 5, etc.
If there was an organization that could help the players negotiate the terms of the, what I'll call, showmatch (number of games, maps, handicaps, etc.) I agree that it could spice things up.
IGN's fightclub was in a way doing this with what amounted to weekly showmatches. However it didn't have the players putting up their own money.Another difference is that in this model the players could strike out on their own and set these matches up. In the fightclub model, whoever wins will face whoever IGN chose to pit him against in the next series. The more I write the more I think there could be something there. You need an organization that could line up the logistics, etc. Although they have a really great group of casters and personalities, NASL seems to be foundering a bit (in terms of viewers, if I'm not mistaken). Perhaps they might be interested in organizing something like this where they supply the casters, organize the stream and hype the event and the players put in say 80% of the prize money and negotiate, along with the NASL, the terms of the match.
The thing about businesses, as you should know, is that they need a source of revenue to be sustainable and mainly, for the purpose of marketing and expanding the brand. What good is it if the service exists, but makes no money for the service provider? I find it hard to believe that anybody would be willing to do this merely as a labour of love.
you'd be surprised. you think husky started casting games cuz he knew eventually he'd be being invited to premier tournerments as a main caster?
you think day9 makes his dailies for money? im sure he didnt even have more than 200 subscribers when he was doing his dailies for broodwar.
there are lots of sponsors who lose money to advertise their product. Think of the avg nascar car. you think all those companies have a concrete percentage of people that specifically buy their product cuz a tiny logo plastered to a side of the undercaragge of the back of a nascar car that just goes around in circles all day? of course not.
There are tons and tons and tons of services that exist as a supplimentry that provides free content as a labor of love. The most obvious ones(pertaining to this topic) being youtube and sc2 casts.
On April 12 2013 03:43 ioCross wrote: lol, dude just cuz i own 2 busineeses doesn't mean i'm rich.
Well, saying that i own them would be a lie, i have a 20% stock in an LLC that consists of 2 businesses, and we're thinking of expanding into the modular alarm monitoring for small businesses, but i don't even pay myself a salary right now.
granted i take care of all my bills and extras that i spend money on from whats i guess consitered 'petty cash', but i definatly don't have even enough money to afford my own house. I do own a house, but without my roommates pitching in for the bills/morgtage, i wouldn't be able to swing it on my own. especially now in this economy.
If our business had anything at all to do with computers or IT or anything, i could maybe try to put together some sort of business plan, but as the LLC consists of a liquor store/convinence store and a cellphone repair/hard water filter system store.
so yeah.... don't think hineken or anhiser busch would be interested in anything like that.
I have thought about it, and if in a few years im actually rich, i might partially sponsor a tour, or if there's a player i really like do what TB did with Crank.
But as far as legitamatly going for this, i have no presense in e-sports. The most i can do is try to get people engaged in this idea, and hope that someone with insight picks it up and thinks about it.
Imagine if day9 and husky came up with this idea, and they had incontrol n all h=h
the main problem, and this is why teamliquid is the exception, and why TL is one of the best websites out there period when it comes to generated content, is that there is a rabid base of intelligent people willing to put time in to produce content that would otherwise cost a LOT of money.
So as long as we have enough passionate people willing to make a few posters and stuff like that, this could go off without a hitch.
Relying on free labour might not be the best business plan. TL's volunteers are very different from their paid staff in terms of content delivery and work.
The moment you start having something like this, somebody other than the show-match players will be asking for a pay-cheque for services rendered. Be it the commentator(s), the production staff, the marketing people, etc, somebody else needs to get paid, and that comes directly out of the prize money and the stream revenues. The stream revenues themselves can't really be quantified immediately because most viewers will try and watch the VODs (and then, how do those work?).
I feel that the idea isn't stupid; not at all. The thing is, in practice, there is a lot of behind-the-scenes work that goes into producing this type of endeavor. The gamers are the show, but without the producers, there is no show. When the producers are volunteers or fans, how long until they start feeling like slaves and stop volunteering their time so that a few key figures make money off of each showmatch?
This is all wishful thinking until you start to associate people's time with money and actually create a realistic business model.
On April 12 2013 03:54 The_Darkness wrote: I feel like it's probably workable (from a legal perspective) and it doesn't pose the match-fixing worries that some are going on about here.
One concern I have is whether SC2 needs more tournaments. There were always lots of tournaments going on in WOL at any given time, perhaps too many and as a result some argued that SC2 fans suffered from over-saturation. That's about the only downside I see.
I do see signfiicant upside potential. For example, lots of people would tune in to see Flash v. Stephano or Flash v. Jaedong, even though none of those player is (yet) the best in the world in his respective race. I forget how many tuned in to watch the Whitera - Stephano showmatch but IIRC it was 20-30K, which is pretty significant. Having Flash, Stephano, etc. put up their own money would add a bit of drama to what essentially would be a show match. It might also be interesting to have "handicapped" events as well, with player A getting to pick all of the maps, or needing only to win 2 games in a best of 5, etc.
If there was an organization that could help the players negotiate the terms of the, what I'll call, showmatch (number of games, maps, handicaps, etc.) I agree that it could spice things up.
IGN's fightclub was in a way doing this with what amounted to weekly showmatches. However it didn't have the players putting up their own money.Another difference is that in this model the players could strike out on their own and set these matches up. In the fightclub model, whoever wins will face whoever IGN chose to pit him against in the next series. The more I write the more I think there could be something there. You need an organization that could line up the logistics, etc. Although they have a really great group of casters and personalities, NASL seems to be foundering a bit (in terms of viewers, if I'm not mistaken). Perhaps they might be interested in organizing something like this where they supply the casters, organize the stream and hype the event and the players put in say 80% of the prize money and negotiate, along with the NASL, the terms of the match.
i don't think oversatuartion would be the issue, as the main problem was that it was the same korean pros, and the same stale match-ups.
think of the sheer # of pro players, and think of how many people get recognized for winning. TLO has been playing some of the best starcraft of his life, and unless you watched his stream or followed his games, the only way you would know that he has been playing great is by his 5-0 group stage play, and his i think 9th place? finish.
It's criminal that there are so many great players that are so good at this game, but don't get ANY recognition becuase they aren't part of that elite 5% that consistantly win tournerments.
however, i'm sure TLO would be willing to play just about any european pro head up for a few hundred dollars.
so would a LOT of the high end level pros, like idra, forgg, lastshadow, suppy and others, who haven't had that 'break out performance' to make money and get exposure, without having to win a tournerment that they would have no chance in winning.
On April 12 2013 03:43 ioCross wrote: lol, dude just cuz i own 2 busineeses doesn't mean i'm rich.
Well, saying that i own them would be a lie, i have a 20% stock in an LLC that consists of 2 businesses, and we're thinking of expanding into the modular alarm monitoring for small businesses, but i don't even pay myself a salary right now.
granted i take care of all my bills and extras that i spend money on from whats i guess consitered 'petty cash', but i definatly don't have even enough money to afford my own house. I do own a house, but without my roommates pitching in for the bills/morgtage, i wouldn't be able to swing it on my own. especially now in this economy.
If our business had anything at all to do with computers or IT or anything, i could maybe try to put together some sort of business plan, but as the LLC consists of a liquor store/convinence store and a cellphone repair/hard water filter system store.
so yeah.... don't think hineken or anhiser busch would be interested in anything like that.
I have thought about it, and if in a few years im actually rich, i might partially sponsor a tour, or if there's a player i really like do what TB did with Crank.
But as far as legitamatly going for this, i have no presense in e-sports. The most i can do is try to get people engaged in this idea, and hope that someone with insight picks it up and thinks about it.
Imagine if day9 and husky came up with this idea, and they had incontrol n all h=h
the main problem, and this is why teamliquid is the exception, and why TL is one of the best websites out there period when it comes to generated content, is that there is a rabid base of intelligent people willing to put time in to produce content that would otherwise cost a LOT of money.
So as long as we have enough passionate people willing to make a few posters and stuff like that, this could go off without a hitch.
Relying on free labour might not be the best business plan. TL's volunteers are very different from their paid staff in terms of content delivery and work.
The moment you start having something like this, somebody other than the show-match players will be asking for a pay-cheque for services rendered. Be it the commentator(s), the production staff, the marketing people, etc, somebody else needs to get paid, and that comes directly out of the prize money and the stream revenues. The stream revenues themselves can't really be quantified immediately because most viewers will try and watch the VODs (and then, how do those work?).
I feel that the idea isn't stupid; not at all. The thing is, in practice, there is a lot of behind-the-scenes work that goes into producing this type of endeavor. The gamers are the show, but without the producers, there is no show. When the producers are volunteers or fans, how long until they start feeling like slaves and stop volunteering their time so that a few key figures make money off of each showmatch?
This is all wishful thinking until you start to associate people's time with money and actually create a realistic business model.
like i said, i'm not qualified or have the know-how to actually create a realisitc business plan. I have zero experience in the e-sports industry, (a lan party for friends in a store basement doesnt count ) like you said, the importance of having a realisitc business plan is paramount. And i'm not going to claim i have the know-how or spare time/money to get this thing off the ground.
You gotta realize, i work 60+ hours a week. Granted i spend my time at work sitting in front of a computer watching netflix and trolling forms, but still when i go home, the last thing i'd want to do is work on a business model for basically letting pro gamers make money.
That would be for people who would actually be invested in this.
I was originally going to open a lan center a few years ago, im so very very glad i did not, as the 2 lan centers by my area have both shut down and filed for bankrupsy. But if i had a lan, i would maybe be thinking up a business plan, but like i said already, the only way this would work is if it was done as fan service..
and before you go on about how people wont do things for the love of the game, read the SSL article thats up on team liquid broodwar section. Dude single handedly revitalized competitive broodwar in korea, and his company has NOTHING to do with broodwar. apperently itembay is a company thats involved with F2P (free 2 play) model transactions in korea. So yea, there are people that do things out of love.
On April 12 2013 03:54 The_Darkness wrote: I feel like it's probably workable (from a legal perspective) and it doesn't pose the match-fixing worries that some are going on about here.
One concern I have is whether SC2 needs more tournaments. There were always lots of tournaments going on in WOL at any given time, perhaps too many and as a result some argued that SC2 fans suffered from over-saturation. That's about the only downside I see.
I do see signfiicant upside potential. For example, lots of people would tune in to see Flash v. Stephano or Flash v. Jaedong, even though none of those player is (yet) the best in the world in his respective race. I forget how many tuned in to watch the Whitera - Stephano showmatch but IIRC it was 20-30K, which is pretty significant. Having Flash, Stephano, etc. put up their own money would add a bit of drama to what essentially would be a show match. It might also be interesting to have "handicapped" events as well, with player A getting to pick all of the maps, or needing only to win 2 games in a best of 5, etc.
If there was an organization that could help the players negotiate the terms of the, what I'll call, showmatch (number of games, maps, handicaps, etc.) I agree that it could spice things up.
IGN's fightclub was in a way doing this with what amounted to weekly showmatches. However it didn't have the players putting up their own money.Another difference is that in this model the players could strike out on their own and set these matches up. In the fightclub model, whoever wins will face whoever IGN chose to pit him against in the next series. The more I write the more I think there could be something there. You need an organization that could line up the logistics, etc. Although they have a really great group of casters and personalities, NASL seems to be foundering a bit (in terms of viewers, if I'm not mistaken). Perhaps they might be interested in organizing something like this where they supply the casters, organize the stream and hype the event and the players put in say 80% of the prize money and negotiate, along with the NASL, the terms of the match.
i don't think oversatuartion would be the issue, as the main problem was that it was the same korean pros, and the same stale match-ups.
think of the sheer # of pro players, and think of how many people get recognized for winning. TLO has been playing some of the best starcraft of his life, and unless you watched his stream or followed his games, the only way you would know that he has been playing great is by his 5-0 group stage play, and his i think 9th place? finish.
It's criminal that there are so many great players that are so good at this game, but don't get ANY recognition becuase they aren't part of that elite 5% that consistantly win tournerments.
however, i'm sure TLO would be willing to play just about any european pro head up for a few hundred dollars.
so would a LOT of the high end level pros, like idra, forgg, lastshadow, suppy and others, who haven't had that 'break out performance' to make money and get exposure, without having to win a tournerment that they would have no chance in winning.
Oversaturation is a big issue. Your time can only be devoted to so much. I'm sure that many players would like to get some money or recognition for the effort that they put in, but not if it could potentially lose them a lot of money.
You ask us to escape the mentality of only rewarding the top percentile who win a lot, as if they've done something wrong by winning a bunch of shit. Then you ask us to lend a helping hand (or dollar) to an idea where fans (who enjoy watching the best - but often settle) pony up a part of the money (which would go to something else SC2 related - but now goes to this) to facilitate an event where the winner gets most of the money, and the producers get a pat on the back.
I don't get how this is supposed to get off the ground. I'm not saying in any way that I wouldn't like to see it happen, I just don't understand where these legions of paying fans (on a match-by-match basis) are throwing money at one-time events where they don't get any incentives for having contributed in the first place.
On April 12 2013 03:54 The_Darkness wrote: I feel like it's probably workable (from a legal perspective) and it doesn't pose the match-fixing worries that some are going on about here.
One concern I have is whether SC2 needs more tournaments. There were always lots of tournaments going on in WOL at any given time, perhaps too many and as a result some argued that SC2 fans suffered from over-saturation. That's about the only downside I see.
I do see signfiicant upside potential. For example, lots of people would tune in to see Flash v. Stephano or Flash v. Jaedong, even though none of those player is (yet) the best in the world in his respective race. I forget how many tuned in to watch the Whitera - Stephano showmatch but IIRC it was 20-30K, which is pretty significant. Having Flash, Stephano, etc. put up their own money would add a bit of drama to what essentially would be a show match. It might also be interesting to have "handicapped" events as well, with player A getting to pick all of the maps, or needing only to win 2 games in a best of 5, etc.
If there was an organization that could help the players negotiate the terms of the, what I'll call, showmatch (number of games, maps, handicaps, etc.) I agree that it could spice things up.
IGN's fightclub was in a way doing this with what amounted to weekly showmatches. However it didn't have the players putting up their own money.Another difference is that in this model the players could strike out on their own and set these matches up. In the fightclub model, whoever wins will face whoever IGN chose to pit him against in the next series. The more I write the more I think there could be something there. You need an organization that could line up the logistics, etc. Although they have a really great group of casters and personalities, NASL seems to be foundering a bit (in terms of viewers, if I'm not mistaken). Perhaps they might be interested in organizing something like this where they supply the casters, organize the stream and hype the event and the players put in say 80% of the prize money and negotiate, along with the NASL, the terms of the match.
i don't think oversatuartion would be the issue, as the main problem was that it was the same korean pros, and the same stale match-ups.
think of the sheer # of pro players, and think of how many people get recognized for winning. TLO has been playing some of the best starcraft of his life, and unless you watched his stream or followed his games, the only way you would know that he has been playing great is by his 5-0 group stage play, and his i think 9th place? finish.
It's criminal that there are so many great players that are so good at this game, but don't get ANY recognition becuase they aren't part of that elite 5% that consistantly win tournerments.
however, i'm sure TLO would be willing to play just about any european pro head up for a few hundred dollars.
so would a LOT of the high end level pros, like idra, forgg, lastshadow, suppy and others, who haven't had that 'break out performance' to make money and get exposure, without having to win a tournerment that they would have no chance in winning.
Which are why there are showmatches. You seem to believe that pro pool and SC2 are comparable in terms of wager culture. Pool, like poker, was built around bar wagers, Sc2 was not.
You ask us to escape the mentality of only rewarding the top percentile who win a lot, as if they've done something wrong by winning a bunch of shit. Then you ask us to lend a helping hand (or dollar) to an idea where fans (who enjoy watching the best - but often settle) pony up a part of the money (which would go to something else SC2 related - but now goes to this) to facilitate an event where the winner gets most of the money, and the producers get a pat on the back.
I don't get how this is supposed to get off the ground. I'm not saying in any way that I wouldn't like to see it happen, I just don't understand where these legions of paying fans (on a match-by-match basis) are throwing money at one-time events where they don't get any incentives for having contributed in the first place.
I don't think you're understanding what makes you think any 'fan' would be "throwing money" at one time events.
You realize when MLG boasts 100k ppl viewing streams, the viewers are only 'paying' by watching 30 second advertisements during matches.
Once again, the ONLY people that would actually be putting the money up are THE PLAYERS and the entities who would like to support the players. The only things that the fans would have to do that costs money is .......... watch the damn stream.
I never once said that the fans would have to do anything other than watch the stream.
Also, in terms of oversaturation, yes we do have what seems like a major tournerment every week, but im sure people are tired of watching koreans rape forigeners over and over again.
im sure some people would love to see their favorite players that aren't korean acutally play in a setting that matters, and not the 4th game of pool-play vs 3 top tier koreans, or the 17th place match in the loser bracket.
So no, i dont think that in this type of setting, we would have to worry about over-saturation.
IGN FightClub has the right idea, but im thinking a way that anyone can challenge anyone, with or without people streaming, with or without people even knowing, im sure some pros would love to play antoher pro for money, but doesn't want the whole world to see them lose. Plus its an invite-only system.
Also, fightclub was another entity that tried to make money off sc2. I don't believe that the current notion of trying to make money off stream #'s is a viable one, and before i get any LOL comparision, i'd like to add that riot games pours most of its money into the tournements they do, So yeah, this will only work if it's done for the love of the game, just like TAR (www.theactionreport.com) did.
Which are why there are showmatches. You seem to believe that pro pool and SC2 are comparable in terms of wager culture. Pool, like poker, was built around bar wagers, Sc2 was not.
actually, pool in bars is an anomoly that was brought on by the invention of barboxes in the 70's.
pool and wagering do go hand in hand, but honestly so does everything.
people play high level chess for money all the time. backgammon also has an insanely high level of gambling involved. If anyone knows of Stu Ungar, he got started by beating the best backgammon players in new york for thousands when he was 12 years old. golf, well, its pretty obvious to anyone who plays golf how much money's involved in even scratch golf. i have several friends that played highschool golf, got good enough to almost get into q-school, and now they make like close to a mil a year just from playing retired doctors and lawyers for money.
Im assuming from the content of the posts on the site that most ppl on here are in their teens to early adulthood, and rarely have much real world experience.
Pool and poker has nothing to do with bar wages..... don't just throw blanket statements out there b/c it sounds right in your head..... cuz most of the time, you're wrong, and for those in the know, just make u sound stupid.
On April 12 2013 04:09 ioCross wrote: so would a LOT of the high end level pros, like idra, forgg, lastshadow, suppy and others, who haven't had that 'break out performance' to make money and get exposure, without having to win a tournerment that they would have no chance in winning.
There is the problem: They are not high end level pros. People that want them to watch a lot do that anyways. People who don't want to watch them don't. The skill of the high level in SC2 is already pretty low compared to what it used to be in bw. So many bad games at GSL and what not, I personally would not bother watching mid-skill players unless I like them for some reason (in which case I would watch them anyways).
Also I would argue that TLO would play anyone if he would be the one that had to put up several hundred dollars for one match.
I for one never get tired of watching the best player win.
Watching Koreans rape foreigners is simply a bi-product of foreigners playing against Koreans. I'm happy that such a framework currently exists where people are able to play SC2 professionally and I'm able to watch.
Sorry about confusing the source of the money, but my assumption was based on something that someone posted earlier in addition to the fact that struggling pro-gamers don't have the money to risk to begin with.
At the end of the day, a pro-gamer's money comes from somewhere, be it winnings from tournaments, a salary from their team, stream revenues, whatever. This is hard-earned money, with blood, sweat and tears (ok, maybe not blood) behind it.
What you're suggesting then is that players who don't typically make money wager their money in a high-pressure environment (a public show-match) for what? The viewers' enjoyment? Here I was thinking the majority of the money would have to come from somewhere else (since players that don't typically win aren't exactly sitting on mountains of money).
Put yourself in that situation... Take away your businesses, take away your capital and replace it with very little money (which you've worked your ass off to earn) and ask yourself if you would want to wager a couple of grand (that you've struggled to make) on a match that you could lose.
How long until the idea dries up? How does the idea even launch?
You can give me success stories like Day[9] all day, but without external sources of revenue, this falls flat on its face once the losers run out of wager money to lose, and AFAIK, the losers of the SC2 pro-scene don't have much money to lose to begin with.
This is why I made the Playhem example from the beginning, where even in a structure where the potential wager money is given to the competitors, the incentive to wager money just isn't there, because of the work involved to make so little is so very much. For the loser, it's disastrous.
To recoup some of your lost money from stream revenue is also something of a fool's hope. If you're operating at a loss, you're still at a loss. In no way does padding a loss of $1000 with a gain of $18 from stream viewers lessen the impact on someone with no money.
If I'm understanding this correctly, this isn't gambling. Gambling is betting on the outcome of a match and getting paid if you guessed right.
This is crowdsourcing the prize pool. If a tournament has an entry fee, and the total entry fee's collected become the winnings, that's not gambling, no one is betting on the outcome.
On April 12 2013 05:34 dUTtrOACh wrote: I for one never get tired of watching the best player win.
Watching Koreans rape foreigners is simply a bi-product of foreigners playing against Koreans. I'm happy that such a framework currently exists where people are able to play SC2 professionally and I'm able to watch.
Sorry about confusing the source of the money, but my assumption was based on something that someone posted earlier in addition to the fact that struggling pro-gamers don't have the money to risk to begin with.
At the end of the day, a pro-gamer's money comes from somewhere, be it winnings from tournaments, a salary from their team, stream revenues, whatever. This is hard-earned money, with blood, sweat and tears (ok, maybe not blood) behind it.
What you're suggesting then is that players who don't typically make money wager their money in a high-pressure environment (a public show-match) for what? The viewers' enjoyment? Here I was thinking the majority of the money would have to come from somewhere else (since players that don't typically win aren't exactly sitting on mountains of money).
Put yourself in that situation... Take away your businesses, take away your capital and replace it with very little money (which you've worked your ass off to earn) and ask yourself if you would want to wager a couple of grand (that you've struggled to make) on a match that you could lose.
How long until the idea dries up? How does the idea even launch?
You can give me success stories like Day[9] all day, but without external sources of revenue, this falls flat on its face once the losers run out of wager money to lose, and AFAIK, the losers of the SC2 pro-scene don't have much money to lose to begin with.
This is why I made the Playhem example from the beginning, where even in a structure where the potential wager money is given to the competitors, the incentive to wager money just isn't there, because of the work involved to make so little is so very much. For the loser, it's disastrous.
To recoup some of your lost money from stream revenue is also something of a fool's hope. If you're operating at a loss, you're still at a loss. In no way does padding a loss of $1000 with a gain of $18 from stream viewers lessen the impact on someone with no money.
well, this is under the assumption that the pros will play the pros for money because they feel that they can beat the other player.
people that pley sc2 are egotistical creatures. pro pool players, poker players and sc players all are highly ambitious, and all think highly of themselves, otherwise they wouldn't be able to try to make a living where you stake your skill for your paycheck.
i think that once this takes off, the pros will actually be more willing to play each other, with or without viewers watching.., and honestly a lot of pros would probly prefer private streams. The point is, that we give the players anohter source of revenue, and another way to showcase something that they are so good at, but never get to showcase, as they only even get mentioned when a high profile korean beats them in a r32.
On April 12 2013 05:38 Fyrewolf wrote: If I'm understanding this correctly, this isn't gambling. Gambling is betting on the outcome of a match and getting paid if you guessed right.
This is crowdsourcing the prize pool. If a tournament has an entry fee, and the total entry fee's collected become the winnings, that's not gambling, no one is betting on the outcome.
This is just an entry fee for a showmatch.
Yes. A wager isn't a gamble. It's 2 people putting their money where their mouth is.
According to the OP, this isn't crowd-sourced at all. It's player-sourced. I made the mistake of thinking we had moved over to crowd-sourced money because of something that someone else had said.
The players will put up their own money. The winner will get most of the money (it should be all of the money, but hey, this is eSports, not pool), and apparently, through a stream managed by angels / volunteers / slaves there will also be some advertising revenue that is split among the two players. The exact numbers are up for debate, but basically, a service is provided and maintained while only the competitors reap the benefits (with a heavy emphasis on the winner reaping most of the benefits, but not all).
On April 12 2013 05:34 dUTtrOACh wrote: I for one never get tired of watching the best player win.
Watching Koreans rape foreigners is simply a bi-product of foreigners playing against Koreans. I'm happy that such a framework currently exists where people are able to play SC2 professionally and I'm able to watch.
Sorry about confusing the source of the money, but my assumption was based on something that someone posted earlier in addition to the fact that struggling pro-gamers don't have the money to risk to begin with.
At the end of the day, a pro-gamer's money comes from somewhere, be it winnings from tournaments, a salary from their team, stream revenues, whatever. This is hard-earned money, with blood, sweat and tears (ok, maybe not blood) behind it.
What you're suggesting then is that players who don't typically make money wager their money in a high-pressure environment (a public show-match) for what? The viewers' enjoyment? Here I was thinking the majority of the money would have to come from somewhere else (since players that don't typically win aren't exactly sitting on mountains of money).
Put yourself in that situation... Take away your businesses, take away your capital and replace it with very little money (which you've worked your ass off to earn) and ask yourself if you would want to wager a couple of grand (that you've struggled to make) on a match that you could lose.
How long until the idea dries up? How does the idea even launch?
You can give me success stories like Day[9] all day, but without external sources of revenue, this falls flat on its face once the losers run out of wager money to lose, and AFAIK, the losers of the SC2 pro-scene don't have much money to lose to begin with.
This is why I made the Playhem example from the beginning, where even in a structure where the potential wager money is given to the competitors, the incentive to wager money just isn't there, because of the work involved to make so little is so very much. For the loser, it's disastrous.
To recoup some of your lost money from stream revenue is also something of a fool's hope. If you're operating at a loss, you're still at a loss. In no way does padding a loss of $1000 with a gain of $18 from stream viewers lessen the impact on someone with no money.
well, this is under the assumption that the pros will play the pros for money because they feel that they can beat the other player.
people that pley sc2 are egotistical creatures. pro pool players, poker players and sc players all are highly ambitious, and all think highly of themselves, otherwise they wouldn't be able to try to make a living where you stake your skill for your paycheck.
i think that once this takes off, the pros will actually be more willing to play each other, with or without viewers watching.., and honestly a lot of pros would probly prefer private streams. The point is, that we give the players anohter source of revenue, and another way to showcase something that they are so good at, but never get to showcase, as they only even get mentioned when a high profile korean beats them in a r32.
If a couple of grand was on the line, I imagine a pro-gamer would want to play against someone they can actually practice to beat (pro-gamers being the easiest to practice for due to publicized games and known styles). Naturally, I'm sure you'd get the occasional no-name with a few thousand dollars saying he can beat Idra in a Bo7, but how long until those random no-names disappear, or pro-gamers refuse to play them due to fear of loss?
definitely NOT. I want gambling to stay as far away from sc2 as possible, with betting / gambling comes match fixing. Gambling in itself isnt going to make sc2 bigger at all, right now isnt the time, first of all we need to build up an organisation and playerbase that will earn a steady income on the game, then and only then one might promote gambling.
think about it this way, there's a lot of guys on here that have GOOD jobs, as most sc players are intelligent. We have several doctors, lawyers, and high end paying IT people, that are also really good at sc due to their intelligence.
I'm assuming you're younger, as you obviously don't know much about how the world works, as it goes. There are plenty of players who play pool at or better then the level that most touring pros play at, but due to having a better paying job, work their jobs and gamble those 'pros' for thousands of dollars at a time depending on the handicap.....
it's what drives professional pool, golf, bowling, darts, foosball, you would honeslty be surprised.
Don't believe me?
Have you ever been to a casino? Know anyone who routinely goto casinos?
Most people going to AC or vegas for a week take like 5-10k to lose with them.. think about that.. they come prepared to lose that money. obviously the pros and the sharks are going to eat them up.
So back to sc2. You're telling me that with the % of GM players that are actually not pros, who all fully believe (be it true or not) that they are just as good as the 'pros' that they beat every once in a while, with the ego that they have, and the spare money that they have, if say minigun or destiny gives one of those guys 3 games going to 7, they wont jump at the chance?
On April 12 2013 06:45 NEEDZMOAR wrote: definitely NOT. I want gambling to stay as far away from sc2 as possible, with betting / gambling comes match fixing. Gambling in itself isnt going to make sc2 bigger at all, right now isnt the time, first of all we need to build up an organisation and playerbase that will earn a steady income on the game, then and only then one might promote gambling.
There would be no incentive for match fixing under this model; it simply wouldn't make sense.
I really wish the OP didn't even put the word gambling into the thread title, because it ends up confusing people. A wager isn't a gamble. As the loser of a wager, you don't stand to win anything by intentionally losing, because there is no betting/gambling related to SC2. You can't hedge your wager in anyway without a betting infrastructure. If you lose, you lost your wager, but you stand to make a little bit of money from viewership.
Your argument against this displays complete lack of understanding of the difference between a wager and sports betting. I'd suggest staying away from this discussion, since we're mostly concerned over the viability of the idea as a whole, and not the misinterpretations that people have of the ways that money can change hands.
For your information, the SC2 community was affiliated quite heavily with Playhem, which provided a service very similar to what we're talking about. It wasn't a gambling site, but you could wager money from your account in 1 on 1 games or enter cash tournaments where people's wagers constituted the prize pool.
And i know you said that you think that it's not going to be long before players stop playing, but trust me, the old adage 'a sucker is born every minute' is VERY VERY true.
Don't take my word for it tho, altho im sure Nagzul wouldn't bother to grace us with his presense on this thread, but i know there are other ppl on TL that play poker for a living, or have played high level poker before, so feel free to chime in with you guys's own experiences with poker players and general highroller SSBB (Ship it Big Baller) stories.
But yeah, the entire poker player industry is supported by a player base that plays at a close to the level as the pros do.
that are good enough to hang, but not good enough to win bracelets. But they work at a job where they make 300k a year so why the fuck would they waste their time grinding it out at 10/20 tables for a living?
I know for a FACT that those same GM players who have money, who also like to gamble, and there are a lot of them, just ask around, sc and poker have a fun and fabled history hand in hand, and trust me, the action will never 'bleed dry' once it becomes commonplace.
I use poker, pool, golf, bowling, chess and table tennis as 6 irrefutable peices of evidence that the statements above that i have said about people who play at pro level but don't play as 'professionals' gamble each other, and it keeps the industry alive.
I'd love for anyone involved in the above sports to chime in and back me up.
I'd also like to share a personal story, about a japanese friend who came to the states to goto college, who happened to be a god at fighting games. Once i found out how good he was, i ended up taking him around with me to the local pc bangs that had xboxs and arcades and finding him action. That was back when marvel vs capcom had first come out on the dreamcast i believe?? (damn i sound like an old fart) i think.. but anyway he made so much money that year playing soul caliber 2, MVC and SS3 that he didn't go back, and to this day he lives in the same studio in baltimore city, doing the arcade circuit to make rent.
On April 12 2013 06:54 ioCross wrote: you would be surprised.
think about it this way, there's a lot of guys on here that have GOOD jobs, as most sc players are intelligent. We have several doctors, lawyers, and high end paying IT people, that are also really good at sc due to their intelligence.
I'm assuming you're younger, as you obviously don't know much about how the world works, as it goes. There are plenty of players who play pool at or better then the level that most touring pros play at, but due to having a better paying job, work their jobs and gamble those 'pros' for thousands of dollars at a time depending on the handicap.....
it's what drives professional pool, golf, bowling, darts, foosball, you would honeslty be surprised.
Don't believe me?
Have you ever been to a casino? Know anyone who routinely goto casinos?
Most people going to AC or vegas for a week take like 5-10k to lose with them.. think about that.. they come prepared to lose that money. obviously the pros and the sharks are going to eat them up.
So back to sc2. You're telling me that with the % of GM players that are actually not pros, who all fully believe (be it true or not) that they are just as good as the 'pros' that they beat every once in a while, with the ego that they have, and the spare money that they have, if say minigun or destiny gives one of those guys 3 games going to 7, they wont jump at the chance?
believe me, they will.
I am very familiar with the way people gamble, but this isn't about gambling. This is about wagering.
I'm yet to see a successful pro-gamer who is also a Doctor or Lawyer.
Also, you're trying to convince me that SC2 players are smart and simultaneously make terrible decisions with their money?
If I made my living as a doctor, I would have to be some kind of hack doctor to be stupid enough to think I could beat a Pro-Gamer for money. I would also have to be desperately in need of attention to want to do it on a livestream.
Smart people don't make reckless decisions with their money. People who go to Vegas expecting to lose money are downright pathetic and you can throw them in the category of stupid people with money who will soon be parted from it.
This sounds actually very cool to watch, though I would never get directly involved myself. However, a lot of your ideas to handicap players to make it "more exciting" or equal-footing or something would often make the games less fun to watch. I would rather not watch HuK play Flash while Flash is off-racing. That could be fun once or twice, but watching players consistently handicap themselves I do not think is a viable business.
Though I would love to watch a game between Minigun and IdrA with money on the line.
you realize some of the most intelligent people in the world are straight up degenerates when it comes to general money management and normal spending habits right?
Please read up on Stu Ungar, Nichze, Pablo Picasso, not to mention every single 'poker pro' you see on TV...
Erik Lingdergin owes over 50 people on the 2+2 site a few grand personally, and owes several casinos several hundred thousand dollars, Phil Ivey, if it wasn't for the money he was makin off Full Tilt, would be broke by now, Mike Matasow, he was broke in a week after he won 900k from his bracelet.....
you must still have a rosey eyed fantasy view of your 'heros' ....
well, sorry about the age comment, but usually when someone talks about a subject without having any first hand knowlege on the subject tend to be younger.
Also, while i appreciate that we are having an intelligent communique over this, i never ment to say that i planned on doing something like this, as even if i wanted to i wouldn't have the time or money to devote to anything like it....
if say teamliquid would plan it, i might sign on as one of the sponsors, maybe add like $100 to the pot every showmatch depending on if im interested in the players playing, and i could do some sort of consulting if anyone wanted to run with it, but i just thought it was a great idea, and one that someone could capitalize on.
also, there's a blog on this site from a doctor, who posts on the blog regularly. there are also a lot of threads about people here who are on their doctorates, for example Suppy is going to Berkley for pre-med, Idra gave up a free ride for theoretical physics!!! to play sc2..... so yeah there are a lot of sc2 players who can do a LOT more than play sc.
On April 12 2013 07:19 ioCross wrote: you realize some of the most intelligent people in the world are straight up degenerates when it comes to general money management and normal spending habits right?
Please read up on Stu Ungar, Nichze, Pablo Picasso, not to mention every single 'poker pro' you see on TV...
Erik Lingdergin owes over 50 people on the 2+2 site a few grand personally, and owes several casinos several hundred thousand dollars, Phil Ivey, if it wasn't for the money he was makin off Full Tilt, would be broke by now, Mike Matasow, he was broke in a week after he won 900k from his bracelet.....
you must still have a rosey eyed fantasy view of your 'heros' ....
welcome to the real world buddy.
None of my heroes include degenerate gamblers, so none of this is earth-shattering. Nichze? Really? Fuck Nichze. Picasso? Artists aren't always all there... Picasso was also a kleptomaniac who stole valuable works of art. A true degenerate.
As far as professional poker, while there is an element of skill and psychology, there is an undeniable element of luck as soon as you put all your chips into the pot. I don't have nearly as much respect for the skill of a poker-star as I do for someone with a Superbowl Ring, a UFC championship, or even a Chess Champion, for that matter.
Pool is very different, because the only way somebody really get's "lucky" in pool is when the opponent makes a mistake.
Give this community some credit man... You've antagonized the fuck out of me, and I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, thinking you were a successful business man based on your "ownership" of 2 companies. I don't mind being the bad guy, which is why I challenged your idea as much as I did. I just get the impression this thread dies pretty fast without any discussion, and AFAIC this idea needs more refinement, which is what I thought we were working towards.
On April 12 2013 07:14 BlackPride wrote: This sounds actually very cool to watch, though I would never get directly involved myself. However, a lot of your ideas to handicap players to make it "more exciting" or equal-footing or something would often make the games less fun to watch. I would rather not watch HuK play Flash while Flash is off-racing. That could be fun once or twice, but watching players consistently handicap themselves I do not think is a viable business.
Though I would love to watch a game between Minigun and IdrA with money on the line.
honestly, i think if the ball got rolling, the players themselves would be more invested in the matches than the fans.
the TAR (action report) came into fruition because these mid tier pros were playing high tier pros for money with a handicap.
Websites sprung up devoted to following the exploits of these pros, and several communities (azbilliards being the biggest) grew out of peoples interest in these money matches between these good players, as the tournerments were just the same faces playing the same faces over and over again.
I think once it would be more commonplace, not even pros, but other GM's or masters level players would play each ohter for money if they felt like they were confident enough. I mean, i've played my friend for 200 bucks in a bo7 once, granted i gamble with him in poker all the time.
If i knew for a fact someone played close to my level in starcraft, i'd love to play them a bo7 for like 50 bucks to 100 bucks.
a lil action always makes things more interesting after all
1). I like the idea, but it would be nice to know how the production of the live broadcast would be handled (from a financial standpoint).
2). I'd like to know what pro-gamers think of putting their own money up for show-matches. Having one of them weigh in on this discussion would be nice, which is why I'd like to see it kept alive.
i'd also like some feedback from some of the pros.... i cant imagine anyone not wanting to woof it up..... hint hint minigun n idra....
seriously, sc2 is all about pros talkin shit to each other online and on fourms, and when they see each other at tournerments, they don't even look each other in the eyes.... they are some of the most passive agressive ppl i've ever met...
i can't imagine these pros, a lot that have playd poker seriously for at least a lil bit, not wanting to make money off a game that they practice on several hours a day.
Like i said, aside from the regular ladder, and online cups and the occasional major tourney, you really don't get any exposure to the pros playing, and honestly it really isn't too exciting watching pros beat up on masters level players and ranked 195 GM players.
How much more exciting would a stream be if Grubby happened to be playing Polt for 5k, grubby going to 7 while Polt is going to 9?
Or if Spanishiwa vs'd RooTDrewbie for 500 bucks playing a bo5?
I for one think that even non-e sport fans would be drawn in by the action potential.
Also, once people get interested in the betting aspect, like fantasy football they would want to get to know the players, get more invested in the game, it just seems that any possible bad issues that would arise from this would definately be overshadowed by the good things that can come from it.
On April 12 2013 06:58 dUTtrOACh wrote: There would be no incentive for match fixing under this model; it simply wouldn't make sense.
Why are wrestling matches fixed? Because the people who fall for that crap are in it for the faked-up storylines, for the orchestrated grudge matches and scripted comebacks. The idea that each wrestler had his own cash on the line and maybe desperately needed a win would only spice things up further.
Don't be distracted by the wagers; that's a zero-sum game. The stream income is where it's at here. Sponsorship is where it's at. The bigger the perceived stakes, the more viewers. The more back and forth the games, the greater the rivalry, the more drama, the more viewers. There's your incentive. It's not as sexy as winning 10K off Flash, but it's sustainable, and it's probably what we'd end up with.
like i said, this doesn't have to be from the fan's perspective.
i was talking from the player's perspective too.
I know for a fact that there are players that are grandmaster on the ladder that know that they play just as good as some of the mid-lower tier'd pros.
I'm not saying that they actually are, but since they are in the same GM league, and take games off them sometimes, if given a proper handicap, im sure a ton of players would be willing to bet money on the game, or someone else who has money would definatly put another player in as his 'horse' in. There are a lot of 'stakehorses' , who love the game, but arent good enough themselves, that relish the idea of having a 'stable' of players that they can send in vs anyone as bragginig rights.
Once again alluding to pool, currently there's a player Ryan McCreesh, who is staked by a wealthy property owner in NY. There's a open window for action on the east coast, where anyone who wants to play him is welcome to play him, and everyone knows the stakehorse will pay.
I'm sure if there was someone who wanted to play Crank for a few hundred with a spot, TotalBiscut would be more than happy to put Crank in....
On April 12 2013 06:58 dUTtrOACh wrote: There would be no incentive for match fixing under this model; it simply wouldn't make sense.
Why are wrestling matches fixed? Because the people who fall for that crap are in it for the faked-up storylines, for the orchestrated grudge matches and scripted comebacks. The idea that each wrestler had his own cash on the line and maybe desperately needed a win would only spice things up further.
Don't be distracted by the wagers; that's a zero-sum game. The stream income is where it's at here. Sponsorship is where it's at. The bigger the perceived stakes, the more viewers. The more back and forth the games, the greater the rivalry, the more drama, the more viewers. There's your incentive. It's not as sexy as winning 10K off Flash, but it's sustainable, and it's probably what we'd end up with.
I've known since I was like 9 years old that wrestling was fake and an entirely staged act. I hope you're not trying to compare pro SC2 to pro wrestling, because it borders on insulting. Not to me, either, but to the people that pour their heart and soul into SC2 as a profession. If there's actually a sports betting system for pro wrestling, I feel sorry for its participants.
EDIT: I've said what I have to say in this thread. Please, if you're going to quote me, don't say anything this ridiculous.
I'm sorry for offending you, but you've rather missed the point. I didn't say anything about sports betting. I didn't say anything about the sports being similar. When you feel like reading my actual post, we can talk.
After reading this entire thread, and raising valid concerns (which an extremely rude OP brushed off) I feel like OP thinks he knows more about pro players than he does.
Here is what I believe OP claims
1: Pro players have huge egos. 2: Pro players are willing to wager money on their own skill, to defend their "honor" and "crush this scrub" mentality . 3: "Unknown" GM's are willing to wager money on their own skill. 4: Passionate people would provide stream for free, production, casting while TL would provide the framework. 5: E-sports would benefit from more rivalries.
The problem I have is that while OP has defended most of these statements throughout this thread (while attacking the age of anyone who insults the idea), he has yet to prove ANYTHING except that this is viable in other sports. Anecdotal evidence only gets you so far here on TL.
I feel like this could work, but not in the format OP suggests, there need to be external sponsors and backers, since I believe (and this is an assumption I hope some semipros will confirm) most of these unsung ladder heroes and semi pros (pros on teams who have shown little performance and aren't working) simply doesn't want to risk what little money they already make by taking a wild gamble which could end up losing them a significant part of what little money they make. But then again, wouldn't it just be a showmatch, of which many of these mid/top tier already plays a bunch?
And before you ask: I am 22, have a bachelors degree in Business Administration, about to start my masters.
On April 12 2013 06:45 NEEDZMOAR wrote: definitely NOT. I want gambling to stay as far away from sc2 as possible, with betting / gambling comes match fixing. Gambling in itself isnt going to make sc2 bigger at all, right now isnt the time, first of all we need to build up an organisation and playerbase that will earn a steady income on the game, then and only then one might promote gambling.
There would be no incentive for match fixing under this model; it simply wouldn't make sense.
I really wish the OP didn't even put the word gambling into the thread title, because it ends up confusing people. A wager isn't a gamble. As the loser of a wager, you don't stand to win anything by intentionally losing, because there is no betting/gambling related to SC2. You can't hedge your wager in anyway without a betting infrastructure. If you lose, you lost your wager, but you stand to make a little bit of money from viewership.
Your argument against this displays complete lack of understanding of the difference between a wager and sports betting. I'd suggest staying away from this discussion, since we're mostly concerned over the viability of the idea as a whole, and not the misinterpretations that people have of the ways that money can change hands.
For your information, the SC2 community was affiliated quite heavily with Playhem, which provided a service very similar to what we're talking about. It wasn't a gambling site, but you could wager money from your account in 1 on 1 games or enter cash tournaments where people's wagers constituted the prize pool.
This is such a dominant idea, someone should do it.
Create a TL thread and maybe message a few teams to make sure they're in the loop, offer that anyone with the balls can step up to play and cash in on the massive surge of interest.
Things that seem good about this: 1. It would pretty quickly end all this Idra-style "So-and-so is trash, but I just say that all the time without proving it". 2. People concerned about the money just circulating within the scene and not increasing overall stability are forgetting both the stream revenues and potential wins/losses of non-pro but very good players who jump at a chance to mix it with the best. 3. The idea of handicaps seems stupid to me, why would Flash stake his own money against HuK if he had to start with some arbitrary disadvantages? Just make it a system where a player issues a challenge that then a player who believes themselves to be of comparable skill to step up to (first guy can back out if his opponent is actually going to roll him, losing face but not money) or where players directly challenge others that are of comparable skill (thus giving incentive for both players to play). 4. It sure as hell would be interesting, and would be another draw/avenue for people not invovled in eSports. 5. It encourages a competitive scene to develop below the very top-top pros.
Only things to watch out for are match fixing and the like, which is basically handled by proper regulation (who by, I'm not sure, but I know someone could be found). I think the tradeoff would be worth it.
On April 12 2013 16:05 Grovbolle wrote: After reading this entire thread, and raising valid concerns (which an extremely rude OP brushed off) I feel like OP thinks he knows more about pro players than he does.
Here is what I believe OP claims
1: Pro players have huge egos. 2: Pro players are willing to wager money on their own skill, to defend their "honor" and "crush this scrub" mentality . 3: "Unknown" GM's are willing to wager money on their own skill. 4: Passionate people would provide stream for free, production, casting while TL would provide the framework. 5: E-sports would benefit from more rivalries.
The problem I have is that while OP has defended most of these statements throughout this thread (while attacking the age of anyone who insults the idea), he has yet to prove ANYTHING except that this is viable in other sports. Anecdotal evidence only gets you so far here on TL.
I feel like this could work, but not in the format OP suggests, there need to be external sponsors and backers, since I believe (and this is an assumption I hope some semipros will confirm) most of these unsung ladder heroes and semi pros (pros on teams who have shown little performance and aren't working) simply doesn't want to risk what little money they already make by taking a wild gamble which could end up losing them a significant part of what little money they make. But then again, wouldn't it just be a showmatch, of which many of these mid/top tier already plays a bunch?
And before you ask: I am 22, have a bachelors degree in Business Administration, about to start my masters.
Well, i seem to have to explain myself a bit i guess.
1) I know a variety of professional players.., mainly from my proximity to professional pool. I played pool competitively from when i was 18 to 26, played in regional tournerments,(actually won the planetpool tour stop #5 in rockville back in 04), played in the MD state open a few times, played in the Glass City Open in Toledo, not to mention having been on the road on about 10 seperate occasions. ('on the road' meaning traveling to atleast 1 different state to play in different tournerments along with trying to make some money by stopping along the poolhalls and bars along the way). I've gone to the US Open about 5x, and know a lot of pro pool players on a first name basis. Pool and poker are obviously very entwined. Before the poker boom in 03, most poker games were played in the back rooms of poolhalls. A lot of the 'poker pros' you see on tv are all pool players who were better at cards then pool. There are acutally a few like Jon Hennigan and Josh Arieh who were pro level players, (Johnny 'World' Hennigan i think won the US open 1 year, and for a while in the early 90's was consitered the most dangerous money player in the states) and Josh Arieh was, while never a top player, was definately very close to 'pro' or at least shortstop level. There are a lot of others, even Daniel Negranu was introduced to poker by playing snooker in canada.
There was an unfortunate incident which caused me to get a nerve in my eye severed, so not being able to see straight, i turned to poker full time. After black september, i spent most of my time at the dogtrack, and at charlestown VA, along with the few home games around here, but did goto AC on several occasions.
I'm not trying to toot my own horn, or talk about my life, as honestly, as much fond memories i have of my life, i have nothing of substance to actually show for it, (well, aside from my stake in my business), i just want to tell you how i know how pro pool/poker/golf/bowling/chess players pretty well, and for you to know that i'm not just making a blanket statement when i tell you that i know for a fact that a certain P**** I**** used to sell crack in AC to pay for his gambling, or that Mike Matasaou was on extacy and cocaine at the final table when he won that one NL bracelet, that i know that for a fact.
2) Professional players are egotistical, highly selfish people. They have to be to try to make a living at a highly individual-skilled game that has such low rewards. Think of the avg sc2 tourney payout. Unless you get in the top 8, you hardly make any money. Even if you finish top 16th, after you take out the hotel and travel expenses, you hardly break even, if you even end up positive. Fortunetly for sc2 players, they are sponsored by teams, who partially or totally pay travel and hotel expenses. Only about 15% of pro pool players get any type of sponsorship, with only about 5% getting a free ride and some type of salary. The rest of them NEED to gamble to make a living. Yet there is enough of an underground gambling community to actively support an entire industry.
Golf, even tho it isn't nessesary, has SOOO MUCH gambling, its REDICULOUS! I know guys who play in a 4man group, at 1k a HOLE that plays 3x a week! People can win thousands on a godamn practice sand trap for christ sakes. Ask anyone on these fourms that play high level poker about how rediculous prop bets and side bets can get.
I once saw a footrace between John 'Hennesse' Williams and Dippy Dave, with John running barefoot, while dippy got a 5 second head start. They had to run from the start of the Mariott parking lot to the other end, and they were betting 50k.
Hillarirously, all the side-betting ended up being around 100k, as there were a LOT of high rollers in attendance.
The point being, people are willing to gamble on a lot of things, and lots of money at it too,.
3) so yeah to answer questions 2 and 3, yes i fully believe that unkown GM's would be absolutely more than happy to challenge pros for money with a handicap. Now, im sure not everyone would be willing to do so in front of an audience, as im sure most people might not want other ppl knowing a) how much they are betting, b) their actual skill level c) just general nerves, HOWEVER there are some pros who thrive on that pressure. U can see it in the GSL, where mid tier players rape when they get in the booth. The recent TAiLS writeup is a perfect example, of someone like tails studying someone like ryung's build and finding a weakness and sniping him, cept tails would do it before hand and then challenge ryung to a action match.
4) Now i'm not sure with sc2, but in pool, yea initially the guys at TAR put up the money and did everything out of their own pocket as an investment. It ended up working for them, and they are nationwide now.
However, there are a lot of pool streams now. Most popular poolhalls have at least one 'action table', that people can use to play for money on, and most of them are livestreamed on the poolhall's website.
Think of the thousands of youtube videos that people make on the stupidest shit. You think those guys who make those videos of 1000 vikings vs 1000thors get paid to do it? yet there are THOUSANDS of them out there.
Even guys like Husky and Day9, they started out doing all that for free, for the love of the game.
It just happened that they ended up being on the ground floor when esports 'exploded'. If want proof, goto day9's website and look at his first 100 or so dailys. You really think he did those first few with the intention of making one a day as a living, and making money off it? Hell no, he did it b/c he LOVED sc. And yes passionate people will do many grand things for 'free', as it is their passion.
How can you look at the sheer amount of free content produced just around one game, and expect people to not want to do it for free, or for the exposure?
You think that if teamliquid held a casting call for people to cast their next TL attack, thousands of people wouldn't sign up even tho its goign to be a shitton of work for free?
5) ESPORTS would def benifit from rivaries. Idra is smart and he knows this. Theres a reason his stream routinely breaks the 10k mark, and every time he streams he always gets atleast 5k viewers. After the Idra and Minigun spat, the stream #'s for their next MLG match was thru the roof.
People here love these rivaries, and sc players are vain people. I firmly believe that if a player like Idra was called out by somone like Minigun saying 'hey bitch you suck.. if you wanna prove me wrong, bo13 for $500.', he would get that money in a heartbeat.
Honestly, some of the sponsored players would probly get sponsors to pay it.
In the pool world, obviously most pros dont have that kind of money. Stakehorses put up most of the money, and the players get a percentage if they win. before you start bitchin about how thats not fair, you gotta remember, the stake puts up all the money, and risks getting chopped. The player only stands to win money, not lose. I've personally never understood the attraction of being a stakehorse, as the few times i put my friends into action, even tho the game was in their favor i was more nervious than if i was playing for that money myself',
So to sum it up, yes i think pro sc players would love to have this platform to showcase their skills and make some money.
Once again, i'd love for some actual pros to chime in.
On April 12 2013 21:46 NDDseer wrote: This is such a dominant idea, someone should do it.
Create a TL thread and maybe message a few teams to make sure they're in the loop, offer that anyone with the balls can step up to play and cash in on the massive surge of interest.
Things that seem good about this: 1. It would pretty quickly end all this Idra-style "So-and-so is trash, but I just say that all the time without proving it". 2. People concerned about the money just circulating within the scene and not increasing overall stability are forgetting both the stream revenues and potential wins/losses of non-pro but very good players who jump at a chance to mix it with the best. 3. The idea of handicaps seems stupid to me, why would Flash stake his own money against HuK if he had to start with some arbitrary disadvantages? Just make it a system where a player issues a challenge that then a player who believes themselves to be of comparable skill to step up to (first guy can back out if his opponent is actually going to roll him, losing face but not money) or where players directly challenge others that are of comparable skill (thus giving incentive for both players to play). 4. It sure as hell would be interesting, and would be another draw/avenue for people not invovled in eSports. 5. It encourages a competitive scene to develop below the very top-top pros.
Only things to watch out for are match fixing and the like, which is basically handled by proper regulation (who by, I'm not sure, but I know someone could be found). I think the tradeoff would be worth it.
Well, you're not getting the main point, that without some sort of handicap, HuK would NEVER EVER play Flash for money. Why would he? thats silly. Thats like me playing an GM player for money.
And from Flash's point of view.., he's the world's best player. You think he doesnt know that?
Don't let the korean pro's demeanor fool you, they are a bunch of arrogant lil bastards. korean kids in general are arrogant, and add to that that they are pro gamers, every single one of them grew up dominant in an enviorment full of trash talking kids. I'm willing to bet that a lot of korean pros would think that they could give most NA pros several games in a bo9 series and win handily.
And i'm sure a lot of american pros think that if they had a few games, they could easily win vs the korean pros.
EPT
i think the # of times an american has won the US open is like ... 3 since they started having international (filipino) players play in our stateside tourneys. 
