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On April 11 2013 10:23 [Erasmus] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 09:23 ioCross wrote:
we can give them a venue where they can 'put up or shut up' as they say. Yep... winning one series in a showmatch -CLEARLY- makes you the overall better player. I hate it when that kind of stupid logic gets thrown around.
'
Never actually said that.
Reading comprehnsion i'd give u a 1/10.
SIlly attitude regarding my post.... i'd give u a 8/10.
This isnt about something that makes people want to take chances. Ur telling me that a 200 player deep torney, where there are 10 top koreans in contention, where the avg to good pro has no chance of making any decent money, why not give them a veune where they can actually make some money?
And according to your silly logic, one tournerement final has absoolutely no impactg on a player's 'rank' anway as the data sample is too small.
one set in a series isn't enough to showcase who the better player is. Obviously. Now if a player who is top50 GM and wins vs pros a lot, might be better than some of the lower tier pros.and might be willing to put up up to $100 or more to prove that he can beat say RooTFitzy, or one of the new FXO NA ppl...
point is that this is Wayyyy more than any type of like ranking system for who the 'better' player is. That is what this site rankings and TLPD rankings are for. This has nothign to do with the 'overall better player' n everything to do with how good someone is, and how much they are willing to put up to prove itr
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On April 11 2013 11:35 SkimGuy wrote:
Is everyone forgetting what happened with Savior and a bunch of other progamers? Cmon guys...
this is absolutely nothing to do with matchfixing.
if teamliqiuid was the ones behind the setup of the showmatches, and put up some moneyh, i think it would lend enough legitamacy to it to the whole thing...
i relaly do see this being long term viable.
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On April 11 2013 20:38 ioCross wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 11:35 SkimGuy wrote:
Is everyone forgetting what happened with Savior and a bunch of other progamers? Cmon guys... this is absolutely nothing to do with matchfixing. if teamliqiuid was the ones behind the setup of the showmatches, and put up some moneyh, i think it would lend enough legitamacy to it to the whole thing... i relaly do see this being long term viable.
This is why nobody is taking you seriously. You are saying, "this is a great idea, somebody else (Team Liquid) should do it." If its such a good idea, go out and put your own time and money into it and tell us how it works out.
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Gambling could kill a sport, we seen a lot of players and teams who gamble on their own defeat when they played against weaker player. Chinese mafiosi gave lot of moneys to soccer players, swimmer and sportsperson to lost their race/match in order to makes a lot of money.
So i'm not full enthusiastic about gambling in gaming...
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On April 11 2013 16:51 PredY wrote:
i thought KT_Action was cought in a casino or smth..
You and me both man, you and me both.
On topic I agree that this would be a great thing to see from a spectators PoV, but players would never agree to it. Unfortunately there aren't many grudges that pop up in SC2 that players would act on, unlike fighting games. And for grudges that do actually exist, you'd be stretched to find people who would part with their money.
When I'm setting up showmatches and the sponsor would like a 100-0 split on the match, you'd be surprised at how many players I actually have to go through to find someone willing to play for a couple hundred bucks. And this is sponsor money, people decline on the off-chance that they lose even though all they are parting with is an hour of their time. The SC2 pro scene is too concerned with their image that this would never pan out. Hell would freeze over before IdrA would play a grudgematch against Minigun out of pocket.
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On April 11 2013 20:38 ioCross wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 11:35 SkimGuy wrote:
Is everyone forgetting what happened with Savior and a bunch of other progamers? Cmon guys... this is absolutely nothing to do with matchfixing. if teamliqiuid was the ones behind the setup of the showmatches, and put up some moneyh, i think it would lend enough legitamacy to it to the whole thing... i relaly do see this being long term viable.
So you want someone else to use their money and time on your idea?
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On April 11 2013 20:55 Wertheron wrote:
Gambling could kill a sport, we seen a lot of players and teams who gamble on their own defeat when they played against weaker player. Chinese mafiosi gave lot of moneys to soccer players, swimmer and sportsperson to lost their race/match in order to makes a lot of money.
So i'm not full enthusiastic about gambling in gaming...
I love people who clearly have not read the op or any of the thread. Your an idiot.
This is an awesome idea I hope gets done. What would be cool is if you could do small bets through the website and have a page to find matches for 5$-50$ and play for money that way. This gives people an avenue to make money playing without it being a huge show match and lower tier players can get involved.
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i love how the only people that are against this idea are also the ones that don't even read what i actually wrote, and just blab on about their own stupid adgenda.
READ THE DAMN POST BEFORE YOU TROLL ! JESUS!
And for anyone who wants to know, the general interest in pool at the early to mid 2000's was at it's worst doldrums. Poolrooms were closing faster than you could say *cough illegal gambling from poker and slot machines" , and honestly these action streams single handledly kept a spot alive until we (pool players) were able to find enough stable sponsors for a normal 'pro tour' again.
We had one back in the late 80's and early 90's, it was sponsored by camel, it was called the PBT or Professional Billiards Tour.
Well, the best player at the time was this crazy american player named Earl Strickland, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Strickland , who was like, in the 80's, was definatly a 'bonjwa' in pool. He won his first pro toruenerment when he was 15, and by the time he was 18 he was consitered the strongest money player in america. For a good year or so he didn't lose a single non-handicapped gambling match. This part is 100% true, on the weekend of i belive the Reno Open one year in the early 90's, he won that tournerment, on the same day they went out to celebrate, ended up playing bowling, and he bowled a perfect 300.. (there are mutliple copies of the score sheets floating around the pool themed internets, just like the flash MEME's) and the next day he played scratch golf with the orginizers of the tournerment and shot a 72.
So yeah, dude was a beast, but he was also like, pool's verion of Idra. He would rage if he went to a tournerment, and a spectator ended up taking a flash photo during his shot. He would stop playing in the MIDDLE OF A TELEVISED MATCH, point to the culprit, mind you, while this was being filmed for national TV, and refuse to finish til the guy was removed from the stands. There were multiple tournerments he was thrown out of for general bad behavior, when an inferior player was able to beat him in a set, which happened occasionally, (think of the random games flash loses) he would explode on the player, calling him a lucky f*ck, how his grandmom could've won with the luck that he was getting, how much of a peice of sh*t the opponent is/played like, ..... he makes idra seem like a little girl in a tea party for chirst sakes.
But ya, since he was the best player at the time, (think of a mindmeld between savior/flash/nada/bisu(when he was good)) thats how good strickland was. So u could NOT not invite him to the tournements, but he kept making such an ass out of himself, and finally after one incident involving him breaking his cue over the table and walking out on the match/tournerment, (LOL JUST LIKE IDRA, Earl would leave matches when it was still like, tied at 8-8, but if the opponent made a luck shot, or if Earl got a bad roll(like if the ball he was aiming for ended up rolling just an inch too far and hid it behind another ball) he would just get pissed off and leave the tournerment. I think there was like at least 10 major professional tournerments that he just straight up walked out on due to various reasons. (crowd was heckling him, missed an easy shot, opponent made a lucky shot, ref made a ruling that he didnt like, etc)
Anyway, the backstory is important to know why PBT dropped sponsoring professional pool just based on one individual. And it just happened that this guy was THE best player by FAR. If i were to make an anolgous sc compariosion, he had flash's unflappability and stability and macro, savior's ability to win, bisu's mutitasking abilities, .. basically he was so good that he was the face of professional pool. And camel cigarettes dropped the tour b/c of that one guy.
Wow i really got off topic, but the point im trying to make, is that these action report things pretty much singlehandledly revitalized pool. and kept a (professionally) dead spot alive long enough for them to ride out the PBT bullshit, and earl got too old to be a contender in the tournerments, and now we are starting to get several well known companies as sponsors, but we as pool players have a long way to go until we are at somehting as professional as the PBT again.
Once again im rambling, but i really really do think this would be a boon to SC2, and TEALMLIQUID could actually make this happen!!!
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On April 11 2013 10:39 -TGO- wrote:
Gambling is just plain illegal in the states around me and my state.
And pro's hardly even have enough money to sometimes travel to an event anyways.
If you had bothered to read what i had said, there was already a case taken to supreme court, when the FBI raided the 1972? dallas open. The case went to court, and the pool players and tournerment sponsers won the case as the judge declared that pocket billiards was without a doubt a game of skill and not chance.
It is NOT i repeat IS NOT illegal to make wagers on games of skill in this country.
Think of all the online sports betting that is a HUGE HUGE HUGE market, and so are online casinos.
If it wasn't for those few redshirt f@ggots at full tilt, internet poker would still be booming right now.
Once again, IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO WAGER ON GAMES OF SKILL IN THIS COUNTRY. THE CASE WAS TAKEN TO THE SUPREME COURT AND WON.
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Once again im rambling, but i really really do think this would be a boon to SC2, and TEALMLIQUID could actually make this happen!!!
Ok here you go again. If you have a good idea, go do it yourself rather than insist on someone else doing it for you. You are like one of those kids on the bnet forums trying to get map makers to build them a mod to prove their theory that the game would be balanced if hydras were moved to tier 1. If your idea isn't worth your own time and money, why should anyone else care.
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On April 12 2013 01:10 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +Once again im rambling, but i really really do think this would be a boon to SC2, and TEALMLIQUID could actually make this happen!!! Ok here you go again. If you have a good idea, go do it yourself rather than insist on someone else doing it for you. You are like one of those kids on the bnet forums trying to get map makers to build them a mod to prove their theory that the game would be balanced if hydras were moved to tier 1. If your idea isn't worth your own time and money, why should anyone else care.
hey douchebag, i don't run a starcraft community website that's world famous. Nor do i have access to anyone in the pro gaming community, or know anyone aside from a few NA ladder allstars. Like i said at the end, the reason i posted this here, is that people that ACTUALLY have the connections, and the assets and the ability to get this ball rolling read this site.
I wouldn't even know where to start in talking to players, teams, sponsors, casters, and people in general.
So smartass...
you want to talk comparisions? you're one of those guys who just see something and automatically hate on it, ur one of those OMG SC2 IS DYING CUZ LOL HAS MORE STREAMS, and ur the general negative side of the internet, where nerds get to say stuff that they never would IRL cuz they don't have to worry about getting gutchecked.
if i had the money/resources, i would definatly be sponsoring players, even if its just so i could see my fav players at the tourney im watching.
So far, i've orginized 3 local lans, with the last one having ~50 ppl, most of them having never played sc2 before.
Now we have a semi-regular group of players who play starcraft2 competitvely. I had several players who had never even played sc2, who are in diamond / masters, and follow it religiously, and also have signed up for the paid MLG streams.
I get as many people as i can interested in e-sports and sc2 in general cuz im passionate about it.
What have you done at all except talk down on people on the internet?
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Wasn't this what Playhem was supposed to be all about?
Also, I'm not sure if playing StarCraft against someone for money is gambling. I prefer to think that like pool, Starcraft isn't a game of chance when multiple games are played (ie: Bo7). The number of games played reduces the "chance" factor so that the better player is usually the winner.
Either way... we saw what happened to Playhem. People cared more about playing in their silly dailies for chump change than battling other players for money (you think nerds have ladder anxiety, wait until money's on the line). As far as the idea, I don't think it's terrible, but you take the facts that people live in different timezones, stream money really isn't the greatest source for "recoup" revenue over the course of one series, and there is the potential to lose and I reckon it doesn't catch on. I'm using Playhem as an example of this, where it was possible, the organization even gave people free money (every day - across many divisions) and they still didn't use it.
EDIT: To the OP: If you didn't want the TL:DR crowd coming in here and misconstruing everything, maybe you shouldn't have put the word "gambling" into the thread title when you clearly meant "wagering".
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I don't like money, I don't like gambling and I don't like money, so I don't like the idea.
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On April 12 2013 01:39 Miragee wrote:
I don't like money, I don't like gambling and I don't like money, so I don't like the idea.
It's not gambling if you know who will win.
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if anyone knows how to play pool, then you would realize that there really is not much 'gambling', as the way people match up with handicaps, its as easily handicappable as golf or scratch golf is.
ask any of the sc2 players who also play poker, there is millions of dollars to be made in just gambling scratch golf.
saying 'gambling' is almost a misnomer, becuase the only 'gambling' or relying on luck is still skill based. Think of how u can get lucky in sc2. The opponent scans u and barely misses the dark shrine building, and gets owned by DT's.
Terran's going for a doom drop, and happens to park his dropships where an obs just happens to be. TaIL's blind DT drop, you could say there was a lot of luck involved in the build, but it was more calculated risk than luck.
For the 500th time, IT IS LEGAL IN THIS COUNTRY TO BET MONEY ON GAMES OF SKILL!! LEGAL! LEGAL! THINK OF FOOTBALL BETTING SITES AND ONLINE CASINOS AND HORSE RACING!
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ioCross wrote:
READ THE DAMN POST BEFORE YOU TROLL ! JESUS!
LOL JUST LIKE IDRA, Earl would leave matches when it was still like, tied at 8-8
TEALMLIQUID could actually make this happen!!!
If it wasn't for those few redshirt f@ggots at full tilt, internet poker would still be booming right now.
Where nerds get to say stuff that they never would IRL cuz they don't have to worry about getting gutchecked.
What have you done at all except talk down on people on the internet?
I get the feeling your charged, passionate ranting isn't really contributing very much to the discussion. Why don't you just ignore everybody who says "This is gambling; I'm a mormon." and have a more respectful discussion with the rest of us? You seem to be getting really worked up over what you consider to be troll posts and addressing them writing as if you're screaming yourself blue in the face and ripping all your hair out. The mods are pretty strict here, and you can't just shit all over everyone who posts in your thread and ignore people who are trying to have a discussion.
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On April 12 2013 01:10 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +Once again im rambling, but i really really do think this would be a boon to SC2, and TEALMLIQUID could actually make this happen!!! Ok here you go again. If you have a good idea, go do it yourself rather than insist on someone else doing it for you. You are like one of those kids on the bnet forums trying to get map makers to build them a mod to prove their theory that the game would be balanced if hydras were moved to tier 1. If your idea isn't worth your own time and money, why should anyone else care.
If he doesn't have the ressources to fulfill it but still believes the idea has a lot of potential if executed by the right personel, then it makes a lot of sense to ask others to do it.
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On April 12 2013 01:23 ioCross wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 01:10 MstrJinbo wrote:Once again im rambling, but i really really do think this would be a boon to SC2, and TEALMLIQUID could actually make this happen!!! Ok here you go again. If you have a good idea, go do it yourself rather than insist on someone else doing it for you. You are like one of those kids on the bnet forums trying to get map makers to build them a mod to prove their theory that the game would be balanced if hydras were moved to tier 1. If your idea isn't worth your own time and money, why should anyone else care. hey douchebag, i don't run a starcraft community website that's world famous. Nor do i have access to anyone in the pro gaming community, or know anyone aside from a few NA ladder allstars. Like i said at the end, the reason i posted this here, is that people that ACTUALLY have the connections, and the assets and the ability to get this ball rolling read this site. I wouldn't even know where to start in talking to players, teams, sponsors, casters, and people in general.
For starters. I'm not criticizing your idea. I am criticizing how you are presenting yourself and your idea. If you posted that you are working on a site to facilitate GMs and progamers to wager money on streamed matches against each other and were looking for help, you would get a radically different response from everyone.
P.S. It's also not nice to call people douchebags.
If he doesn't have the ressources to fulfill it but still believes the idea has a lot of potential if executed by the right personel, then it makes a lot of sense to ask others to do it.
No I don't disagree, but I think completely handing off responsibility for the idea is kind of lazy and unserious.
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On April 12 2013 01:40 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 01:39 Miragee wrote:
I don't like money, I don't like gambling and I don't like money, so I don't like the idea. It's not gambling if you know who will win.
Ah, that's the reason why every single person has 100% in LB right? o.O
Also: If anyone knows who will win what is the point in putting money into it? Than the Loser (because everyone know who the loser will be before the match) could just pay what ever amount you want to the winner without playing it out.
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I would love to see that!!
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EPT
