Introduction.......................................................................................... A Small history of Azubu in Esports....................................................... Azubu SC2....................................................................................... Latest Sponorships........................................................................... The Company Azubu......................................................................... Products............................................................................................... More Questions.................................................................................. References and updates...............................................................................
Azubu. The name exploded on the e-sports scene and hasn’t gone since, instead they are growing their franchise with more and bigger investments. But what is Azubu? I never heard of it before and still only barely understand who they are, and what they doing.
It didn’t bother or intrigue me too much until I recently read the article [GSTL] Azubu vs. Prime Preview http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405423. Editor Waxangel apparently shares my complete absence of knowledge of this company because he states: “It's undeniable that at this point in time, Azubu the entity, is more intriguing than Azubu the professional StarCraft II team. After all, we still don't know what Azubu is even now, nearly a year after they made themselves known by sponsoring OnGameNet's League of Legends tournament, under the pretense of being some sort of 'gaming social media site' or whatever. One comically poorly made streaming site, one CSL sponsorship, and one abandoned League of Legends team later, we can't say we've really learned much more about them. Still, it's not like we dislike them for being so shrouded, considering the kind of money they're pumping into the scene. Azubu is like the rich friend you appreciate always picking up the tab at the bar, but are secretly wondering if he's actually a drug dealer.
So what is Azubu? According to webster the term azubu refers tot his: Azabu (麻布) is a district of Minato Ward in Tokyo, Japan, built on a marshy area of foothills south of central Tokyo. It is known as Tokyo's most prominent upscale residential district: many artists, businesspeople, and celebrities reside there.
We can’t actually make anything of this. So let’s start with what we do know.
A short history of Azubu in esports
Azubu founded in 2011 first started sponsoring a big event in 2012. Namely the LoL tournament “Azubu the Champions Spring 2012”. Featuring a prize pool of $179.000 this was no small handwave to every gamer out there, but instead a headbutt into esports. The champions of this tournament was the team Maximum Impact Gaming Blaze (MiG Blaze) with runnerup team MiG Frost. Blaze had won ~89.000 dollars with Frost striking silver with ~35.000 dollars. Apparently Azubu thought it would be a good idea to pay their champions some more in the near future by offering them their sponsorship. This would form the LoL teams Azubu Blaze and Azubu Frost (June 2012). Kevin Kwon, Azubu’s Global Esports Manager had this to say in an interview with Mobafire.com regarding the sponsorship with Ongamenet’s The Champions, and their purchase of teams Blaze and Frost:
Can you tell us how your involvement with OnGameNet came to be? How did it first start?
As you know OGN is the company that broadcasts gaming match in Korea. When he heard from that they will be doing something with Riot we thought why not? It was not something that we did to follow our business plan or because we had something special with OGN. OGN was looking for a major sponsor and Azubu being interested in the LOL just agreed to it. What was the reasoning for buying the Maximum Impact Gaming teams after the The Champions Spring?
Well, like I mentioned from other question we were very interested in E-sports and had ideas to build the E-sports industry. Azubu Blaze & Frost teams are the chosen team, because they won the champion league and we saw their potential to grow bigger. They are currently doing great job and we are very proud them for wining MLG Summer Arena.
Interestinly he mentions the reasoning behind the OngameNet involvement as “we just agreed to it”. It being the major sponsor for a LoL tournament. The keyword for me here is “Just”. It doesn’t show any sign of this being a product of heavy negotations. Ofcourse it could be bigtalk, but in the rest of the interview it seems that every decision from Azubu in esports seems to be the result of “just doing it”. They wanted to get involved, so they did it. After their introduction to LoL they proceeded with sponsoring the Summer edition of the tournament (prize pool $128.000). The teams Frost and Blaze wouldn’t be the only ones getting Azubu dollars. With their presence now well known in the LoL scene they branded outward towards SC2.
Azubu’s introduction to SC2
On august first 2012 they signed a personal sponsorship with viOLet. Just like their first footsteps on the LoL scene, they didn’t came to SC2 to shuffle but to dance. Following the personal sponsorship they formed a Azubu team. Following viOLet came IntoTheRain as coach. This took place in october, with november being a slow month. They soon picked up their pace again with starting gun NaDa as teammanager they gathered the pieces for a full team fast. Iris joined as coach and with so many coaches they could use some players: Eve, Genius, TOP, InCa, VINES, Sleep and San completed the 2012 lineup. In january 2013 they continued with what they do best: gathering headlines with the pickups of SuperNova, GanZi, Symbol and BBoongBBoong. A full team of big names later they had created the Azubu professional SC2 team. Joining eSF now would be logical, so they did in february 2013. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/AZUBU
And as a sidenote, Nada forms a team with Last Pride in the game World of Tanks. Also sponsored by Azubu. But not only did they create a brand new SC2 team by picking up big players, they also made sure to sponsor a Tournament. Not as big as the LoL tournament The Champions; they purchased the rights to sponsor and stream the CSL on september 26. With the statement;
In moving forward with striking changes, the face of collegiate eSports has taken on an entirely new and global guise. Today, the Collegiate Starleague is proud to announce that Azubu, the professional games media company, has entered the field with us as a partner and sponsor.
They form the Azubu Collegiate Starleague. Prizepool: $83.000
Big North American professional gaming organisation“CounterLogic Gaming” announces on january 16th that they form a partnership with Azubu. It is supposed to be a extensive partnership with the organisation using the stream medium Azubu.tv and also setting up a North American branch of Azubu, complementing their locations in Germany and South-Korea. This was the statement following the partnership: Partnership with Azubu Today CLG is excited to announce its partnership with eSports media giant, Azubu. Though they’ve been around less than a year, Azubu has already made a significant impact on the eSports scene through their sponsorship of The Champions League, Collegiate Star League, League of Legends team Frost and Blaze, and their deep StarCraft 2 team including viOLet, Genius, NaDa, and others. CLG will be working closely with Azubu on several projects already deep in development and many others to come in the future in order to bring more frequent and higher quality content into the eSports consumer’s media sphere. Azubu North America In addition to their new partnership with CLG, Azubu has expanded west, and opened their new office in Santa Monica, California. The Azubu North America office will be led by Mark “Garvey” Candella serving as General Manager. From here Azubu NA will be working closely with their new North American partners to further their efforts to expand the growth of eSports globally.
In other news; Azubu’s Blaze and Frost are not satisfied with their sponsorship, and are rumoured to have problems with them streaming through Azubu.tv. So both teams (as of february 4th) dissolve their connection with Azubu. Still wanting to be present in the LoL scene Azubu picks up big Taiwan teams: the Taipei Snipers and the Taipei Assassins on (07/03/2013). It seems Azubu spent little time without a couple of top tier League of Legends teams. This announcement comes quickly after the beta of Azubu.tv went live and is not a stretch to think that the Assassins and Snipers will be streaming there soon.
Summary Actual sponsorships
SC2 – Team Azubu
SC2 – Tournament Azubu Collegiate Starleague
LoL – Team Azubu Taipei Assassins
LoL – Team Azubu Taipei Snipers
Guild Wars 2 – Last Pride Azubu (retired sponsorship - need confirmation)
World of Tanks – Team Azubu
So after several main sponsorships and partnerships it is clear Azubu is throwing hundreds of thousands of dollars into the esport scene. They currently have 3 operating headquarters with Germany as a paper base, South-Korea and since recently also established a foothold in North-America with CLG’s staff. For an organisation just a year old in the esport industry they seem to be very hungry to be known and remembered throwing their cash around. But if this was Sony, following a planned out business model with a known backing of their industry, no one would be doubting the cashflow. But what is Azubu? And how do they get their money? Well, after all the reading and collecting of information; I really have no idea. So there won’t be a summary of revenue assets at the bottom of this page. But what is their business model? Apparently they like to be a big Esports company, but you can’t start from scratch right? Apparently you can just start with an investor or two.
The Company Azubu
So how do I get to know a company? Simply whois the URL (azubu.com or azubu.tv). I figured to get enough information to make a topic, sadly this wasn’t the case. The Whois data simply showed that a registrant was situated in South-Korea. Woopty doo. On the other hand.. This was kinda interesting, because everywhere I’ve read that Azubu was a German company. They even say so on their website and esport manager Mr. Kwon claims it to be. So we got the main website located to a company in South-Korea, not Germany:
After that I jumped into the sourcecode of the website, there were more than enough references to the Korean language that led me to believe that the site itself was created in South-Korea.
<!-- Live 버튼 비 활성화 <ul class="sub0">
Some more information on the domain registration led me to new company name:
Azubu Korea CO. This was to be expected; they claim to have a sister company in South-Korea. It would be weird if that one was called AZUBU EUROPE AG. (AG meaning Aktiengesellschaft, German). But this is the main name of the company.. With a couple of dedicated googlesearches I wound up on a German website. Namely this one: http://www.gtai.de/GTAI/Navigation/EN/Invest/Service/Publications/markets-germany,did=692538.html It is a German website wit hits focal point on Trading & Investing. The article self is about a Korean named [b] Silverio I Park. A Korean in Germany. Ok we got the German-Korean connection finally solved. The article further goes in detail about Mr. Park founding Azubu with another investor (identity unknown) and that they had chosen Berlin as their company headquarter. He goes on about that they have a studio in South-Korea with game developers (can’t say I know an Azubu game..), and that the Berlin office mainly focuses on PR, Marketing, game publishing etc..
Mr. Silverio Park At this point im really starting to get curious about the businessmodel of Azubu, maybe this is a company that develops lots of games and publishes them in countries where I don’t know the brand, or have online casino’s.. Something that would explain the money that they are pumping into the esport industry would be nice to find. Even the reporter writing the article asks what AZUBU actually does, and Mr. Park uses an analogy. So none the wiser we continued the information hunt, I finally got a big name to tag along my searches. The next best search (silverio azubu) also led me back to the GTAI website, with a presentation about why AZUBU had chosen Berlin as their headquarters. The presentation can be read here: http://www.gtai.de/GTAI/Content/EN/Meta/Events/Invest/2012/Reviews/Powerhouse/Downloads/presentation-delegation-visit-seoul-silverio-park.pdf
Mr. Park, or Silverio, also has a dedicated website namely www.insung.de. Its mostly in Korean and google translate only could translate so much. But one thing is certain; Silverio is a businessman giving speeches, writing articles and getting quoted in some financial magazines. Another search led me to a powerpoint presentation Not getting any further on domain searches alone I googled, reddited(..), and looked for info on Team liquid. Apparently I wasn’t the only one trying to find information about this company and its sudden appearance. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17948538 This post (Proseat) was a great catapult, TL users combining their knowledge led to different media and resources. Comparable Reddit posts found the same. Bits of information, some even about a German investor called Lars Windhorst who some claimed to be the CEO. Lars, who has been found guilty on several accounts of fraude. I can’t get this piece of information or the link to Lars Windhorst confirmed but thats an ongoing search..
User Shadow_Broker on reddit had this to say about Lars Windhorst:
In terms of who they actually are their CEO is guy named Lars Windhorst, Chairman is Robert Hersov, when you look them up there isnt really any mention of azubu though they both did show up at OGN LoL Summer. There is also the father of Woong(Azubu Frost) who is supposed to be quite wealthy and backed MiG pre Azubu sponsorship and is now a large Azubu shareholder. The talk of money laundering and fraud surrounding Azubu probably relates to Lars Windhorst who has been accused of fraud and other charges. In terms of Lars and Roberts connection, Lars heads up Sapinda Deutschland GmbH which is owned by Robert Hersov. Overall there seems to be a lot of money backing Azubu though weather these plans or goals will pan out remains to be seen.
He names Lars Windhorst as CEO, and I’ve seen other naming him as CEO aswell. Though I cannot find a proper connection like with Silverio Park. Lars Windhorst DID attend the Champions Summer Finals with other AZUBU executives. Check the video at EDIT 3 at the bottom. Lars seems to be a dead-end for AZUBU information. Looking further I’ve found a website called AZUBUX.com and that translates to a product of AZUBU. Something I want to talk about more.
While all I am getting are loose ends, except raw money deals on sponsorships.. The things eluding me are a business model, a concrete strategy, some kind of revenue, a clear goal. It all seems to be a venture capital with enough money and not a real obvious plan to get a return on their investment. This for a company founded in the winter of 2011. So reading the interview with Kevin Kwon – esports manager, he talks about two products AZUBU virtual coins and something called Z-Talk. Somefurther investigating leads to the conclusion that the website Azubux.com is the virtual money product and Z-Talk can be found on.. Well there is only a Youtube instructional video left:
Posted 11-09-2012. And no trace was ever found of z-talk. Apperently you shouldn’t install it.
So we got 1 premium great product of out the way, whats the deal with the other? Azubux, the way to exchange virtual money? Azubux is registered in Korea, so maybe Asians do something with it, but I have not found a single source of people actually using the product nor referring to it. In the FAQ there are no questions, which means there are no frequently asked questions like “What the hell is this?”. Maybe its something for the future, but the mainsite; Azubu.com doesn’t even talk about it. They do talk about what Azubu does, and offers. Z-Talk and Azubux aren’t among the offered services. So what does Azubu do? Apparently throwing money into the scene and trying to get it back with the one product remaining: www.Azubu.tv. Azubu.tv is their portal, and every partnership, sponsormessage or any other PR related bit of information is pointed towards this Url. So if I’m not mistaken, this should be the place where all the promotional money should be returned with interest. The player itself isn’t Azubu btw. Its Brightcove. Brightcove is a video platform. They mention Azubu in their financial report:
Brightcove Announces Financial Results for Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2012 January 31, 2013 / Brightcove Press Release Added 172 volume customers and 52 premium customers. New customers added during the quarter include Allstate, Aflac, Bristol Meyers Squibb, Georgetown University, Johnson & Johnson, Merck and Azubu.
So Azubu uses the brightcove player, on their Korean coded website, for the firm in Germany. I know, it doesn’t make much sense yet. But Azubu.tv, it could be profitable, depending on their viewership. So I went to Alexa: http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/azubu.tv# Here I found some traffic related statistics and none of them seemed to be mindblowing, sure they get enough traffic but the viewership at this moment doesn’t offer a good way of getting their investment back. The country where Azubu is most popular is Taiwan (Taipei Assasins/snipers) and its at rank 1503. That means there are 1502 sites in Taiwan that are more popular. But I hear you say, ok thats Taiwan. What about NA/Europe? Germany – rank 43.382. Not very popular there either, United states – 63.416. Well Rank only gives popularity, and we all know that esports isn’t the most talked about thing on the workfloor.
Compare it to Twitch.tv. And for your infomation: twitch is the red bar, azubu the blue one. But what you can see is that Azubu is growing in viewership. This should be expected thanks tot heir involvement and partnerships. But the website every marketing related stunt is referring to, Azubu.tv, its not sleek. Yes it works, and brightcove makes a good player. But it all feels and looks as if this isn’t their main means of making money. It looks as a bonus, twitch is throwing less sponsorship around but their site shows where the money went to. So after all this, the question remains: what is the business model of Azubu? What are their goals and how do they intend to make money? I ask this because, well I love companies spending insane amounts on Esports, but I am frightened if they pull out due to sloppy management, excessive activities and leave Teams without funding, and tournaments without a prizepool. Its not bad Azubu is here, but it could be bad when they pull out. So I’m wondering, if the money doesn’t come through azubu.tv, how long till they pull out?
I hope everyone gets a better idea of this company, because I sure haven’t found any solid answers. Kevin Kwon talks about esports as a target for him throw money at and cheer when he hits the bullseye. Mister Park sees Esports as something to make money in, and apparently got the funding to build a esports company. But with former products as dodgy as Z-Talk, and Azubux the virtual money, and now the current means to succeed; Azubu.tv , I am still not reassured that they are here to stay. Apparently they got the funds to keep growing (NA HQ just opened), but who are the investors? And when do they want to see a return on investment before they choose other ways to spend their money? The speed by which they entered the scene can look slow when they leave the scene if investors pull the plug. Im hoping for more information, because all I have found is hope, dreams no real strategy to achieve them. This is merely placed in the shadow of their (apparent) mountain of money, obscuring all views to potential criticasters. What if Team-liquid started sponsoring the GSL, giving out pricemoney? People would assume the site and the t-shirts were doing well.. But in Azubu’s case, what if there is only a twitch 0.5 with no buyable products? And not to end on a Sex&the city note.. Im really hoping that this is all just the beginning, and the solid foundation comes forward through a poster on TL describing in a reply that they are king in Asia. If thats the case, then this topic has found its function.
And for everyone to remember, this company was founded in late 2011. Its only a year old.
EDIT 4 Everywhere Sapinda keeps popping up as the company behind Azubu, Its an privately owned investment company co-founded by Lars Windhorst. Main finances for the company came from the South-African family of Hersov to start it up. Hersov is one of the few known shareholders.
Name: Mr. Heejoon Park Position: Managing Director Appointment date: 23 Febuary 2012 / date of incorporation Other positions: Mr. Heejoon Park is also director of RNTS Media Co., Ltd. and is a non-executive auditor of Bonding Korea Co., Ltd. and Azubu Korea Co., Ltd.
The supervisory board of RNTS Media mentions Robert Hersov as first supervisor.
[EDIT After this piece went up I've gotten more information from multiple people pointing me towards the following article:
Written 2013, Feb 15th
Does anyone remember Lars Windhorst? A self-made man already as teenager, he earned large attention when former German chancellor Helmut Kohl asked him to accompany him to an Asia trip because of his economical connections. Today, on German forums there are stories from people meeting him at the Munich fair 2000, mocking him and describing how enthusiastic he was about some new computer product he would sell to senior people, and how he even had the "Koreans with the fat money" on board.
Anyway, in 2003 he made an affidavit, and in 2007 he reached private insolvency, leaving his creditors behind with over 60million in losses. Since 2004 he's been investigated multiple times for fraud, failure to comply with insolvency terms, etc. Several charges have been dropped in 2009 after he promised to pay up EUR3.5m, then in 2010 he's been sentenced to 1 year on probation for embezzlement of EUR930.000 from Windhorst AG during 2002-2004.
He's been managing Sapinda International, a company owned by Robert Hersov. As well as Vatas Holding, owned by Hersov, too. Vatas Holding owned over 8% of Balda AG shares at one point, Balda is a manufacturer of plastic materials and electronic parts. In 2008, Vatas was sentenced to pay EUR29m to Audley Capital, a British hegde fund. In 2009, German Bank NORD/LB sued Vatas for EUR150m, after they were supposedly ordered by Vatas to buy 13 million shares of Balda. Vatas filed for insolvency after this. ... ... Snippet.
Die SYSK Limited, Road Town, hat uns im Juli 2012 gemäß § 20 Abs. 5 AktG mitgeteilt, dass ihr keine Mehrheitsbeteiligung oder Beteiligung gemäß § 20 Abs. 1, 3 oder 4 AktG mehr an unserer Gesellschaft gehört.
Die AZUBU Europe Limited, Road Town, hat uns im Juli 2012 gemäß nach § 20 Abs. 1 und 4 AktG mitgeteilt, dass ihr eine Mehrheitsbeteiligung an unserer Gesellschaft gehört.
Means that they used to be owned by SYSK LIMITED in Road Town(virgin island) and are now owned by AZUBU Europe Limited also in Road Town
Azubu is a shady organisation and this whole ordeal reeks of money laundering from miles away. If I was still in Berlin I would visit the Handelzentrum just to see if there is indeed anything space lent by Azubu.
Well, I think Azubu is a gateway for a couple millionaire-investors to get involved in the esports industry.
Frankly, I don't see a viable business model yet either primarily because the industry itself is relatively new. I think these people have enough money to throw around to grow both esports and their investment in esports. Also mistakes are going to be made, but what is more important is the innovation involved to fix said mistakes.
That said, I would really like to see a push into more languages *cough cough* english. Maybe they are growing developing markets first tho
On April 04 2013 05:43 EscapingJail wrote: Aside from Abuzu I've been wondering what FXO does? They both seem out of place in Esports.
They sponsor all sorts of 'alternative' sports, like MMA and drift racing so it's not surprising they've branched into eSport. The money just comes from the global foreign exchange market.
There's no way azubu.tv can be making any money, Brightcove's CDN is insanely expensive, and currently azubu.tv doesn't even run ads. I see the fact that they restricted 1080p to logged-in only as a sign of how much it must be costing them. There's talk of the virtual currency on azubu.tv too, as well as premium subscriptions to channels, but neither of those seem active.
When people throw money around in esports, you should be very sceptical when it comes to their sustainability. And it wouldn't be the first time Esports is a venture for shady businessmen :D
You could try searching for Azubu on linkedin, then you get a list of employees (at least those who posted it on their account) and their experience..based on that information the company seems legit and I would guess their main business at the moment is from consulting other game companies like gamigo (also seen in the presentation you posted) and plan to develop browser / online cash games, which are being marketed alot in German TV (sevengames.de and similar sites).
Can't be worse than Raidcall, though who knows how much money they can get out of the users who are willing to give the program complete admin rights to their computer... ~ .~
I thought everyone knows Azubu is Riot. Think about it, if you put millions in the tournaments and stuffs, you should secretly make your own teams and get some money back
AZUBU is fucking creepy now that I've read this, I always wondered how they made money, but always assumed that I was just not looking hard enough o.0
FXO is a Forex trading platform and RaidCall is backed by some chinese company from what I've seen (another reason why offline streams in RC show up with chinese characters). AZUBU, I have yet to find out about and they never seem to give a straight answer....
On April 04 2013 06:10 TeeTS wrote: At this point I could even imagine this being some dummy firm for a gangster boss, who likes esports and wants to have his own team...
I'd say Blizzard making an investment into esports to keep the scene healthy is more likely than some drug dealer whom needs an esports money laundering organization. I'm just joking, of course. I think both are highly unlikely heh.
AZUBU consists of angry ex-BW pros who didnt succeed in SC2. They want to buy the entire scene and then destroy it from the inside, and I imagine Bisu is the CEO.
in my opinion raidcall and azubu don't want to make money right now. there goal is to now invest heavily and in a few years may get a revenue out of it. if you're a rich guy liking esports and looking for risky investments, why don't burn your money in esports?
On April 04 2013 06:10 TeeTS wrote: At this point I could even imagine this being some dummy firm for a gangster boss, who likes esports and wants to have his own team...
I'd say Blizzard making an investment into esports to keep the scene healthy is more likely than some drug dealer whom needs an esports money laundering organization. I'm just joking, of course. I think both are highly unlikely heh.
i once read about a brazilian organisation sending their cs team to a lot of tournaments around europe just to launder money. sadly can't find the article right now, but it was quite interesting.
On April 04 2013 06:00 JustPassingBy wrote: Can't be worse than Raidcall, though who knows how much money they can get out of the users who are willing to give the program complete admin rights to their computer... ~ .~
I don't think Raidcall is too shady. They are owned by a company that makes money with Asian MMOs/online games. And building a considerable user base before monetizing it isn't completely unheard of.
Anyways, phenomenal article, even if it doesn't really reveal that much more about Azubu. They sure are doing a good job of covering their bases and keeping their real inner workings a secret. It'll be interesting to see what will happen to Azubu in the next few years.
It's interesting because it tackles questions that I nearly asked myself. The first time I heard of Azubu, I thought "What a shit name. Who are they by the way?". Then I dropped the subject. Then, there was the CSL sponsorship : "Wow, cool, they invest in eSports!". And then they pick up top koreans. And...
Every time, I was a bit surprised. I didn't try to look any further mind you. I just dropped the subject. But as I read the article, those questions popped back.
And, yes, I agree, there is a problem in the business model. I don't believe in "I don't care as long as money flows in", it is naive thinking. And I don't believe in "Some rich guys want to support the scene and get money back in 5 years". No, no, no sir, it doesn't work this way. When you are like this, you act like MLGSundance, because by publicly backing eSports, he attracts attention and sympathy. People are more likely to buy MLG gold membership this way.
I'd like to read more of it. Too many questions are unanswered. But thank you OP.
On April 04 2013 06:12 canikizu wrote: I thought everyone knows Azubu is Riot. Think about it, if you put millions in the tournaments and stuffs, you should secretly make your own teams and get some money back
Yeah everything about them sounds shady, I tried looking into what they actually do a while ago, but found nothing real. It's probably either a bored billionaire or something illegal to hide money. However, there haven't been any complaints about them whatsoever afaik so.. so far so good :p
Most commonly this is a 75/25 split between investors and partners. The idea is, you sell the investor on some idea that has potential for profitability in the short term, or potential for a larger sale to a more established industry leader down the road.
This means that the company you are starting can essentially come from no where, and begin making moves within the industry. Happens all the time in Oil and Gas.
Raidcall and Azubu - the two eSports sponsors where I have no idea where their revenue comes from, if anywhere, becuase they have no clear business model. Guess we have to wait and see though
Raidcall is a bit more obvious, they run banner ads and advertise F2P MMOs in the client. Can't see it being a ton of revenue, but it's something at least.
I remember trying to find out what Axubu was during their first OGN LoL tourney last year, but I just kept hitting dead ends. What I see from this article doesn't give me any hope of ever finding out for sure what they do.
On April 04 2013 06:44 GrazerRinge wrote: Note to OP: AG in german means "Aktiengesellschaft" = Joint Stock Company "Aktiengesetz" means security regulation. Please edit.
edit: I have no idea why Azubu has "AG" in their name since their are not listed in DAX.
Frankly speaking, I also wonder how much resources Azubu is investing on E-Sport without secure business model.
winning LoL $2 million dollars winning SC2 $1.6 miilion dollars winning WoTank $2.5 million dollar
Net profit 2013 $5.1 million dollars
Solid buziness model if you ask me
and oh, notidehunter announces to be sponsored by Azubu, so put that DotA2 $1 million in the gross income too.
This doesn't surprise me much seeing as how little exposure AZUBU has in the e-sports scene as a company. I've heard talks that AZUBU was shady and all that, but not at this scale. I'm quite ignorant on finance and investing, but from what I've read, AZUBU does seem like a scary group that operates outside of the law often.
Azubu is clealyl owned by a bunch of shady people. But these people have a lot of money and they seem to enjoy e-sports so they spend money on it. I guess it is kind of a hobby for them? Rich people waste lots of money in weird places. I guess spending it here is better than crashing a lamborghini 5 hours after you buy it then deciding to buy another one because you can. Some times people just dont care about a return and want to have fun with their money.
TLDR: Rich people waste tons of money, dont know why people are expecting that Azubu wants to get a financial return on their money.
On April 04 2013 06:44 GrazerRinge wrote: Note to OP: AG in german means "Aktiengesellschaft" = Joint Stock Company "Aktiengesetz" means security regulation. Please edit.
edit: I have no idea why Azubu has "AG" in their name since their are not listed in DAX.
Frankly speaking, I also wonder how much resources Azubu is investing on E-Sport without secure business model.
you can be an AG without being listen on the DAX, the DAX is limited to the top30 companies in germany where you can buy shares at the stock exchange
On April 04 2013 05:39 Otolia wrote: Azubu is a shady organisation and this whole ordeal reeks of money laundering from miles away. If I was still in Berlin I would visit the Handelzentrum just to see if there is indeed anything space lent by Azubu.
azubu has actually more than 1 office in berlin, a friend of mine worked there for a couple of months - i got told that it was very chaotic and unprofessional there, i cant go into anymore details without makin it possible to find out who i am talking about
On April 04 2013 06:10 Marti wrote: Afaik, this is azubucom, where the grass is green infinite is possible and the girls are pretty unattainable is unknown.
Yeah shadiest org in esports, well maybe second after esahara actually.
azubucom changed my life, everyone should visit this website at least yearly and contemplate its meaning.
If they are spending money with no expectation of return, why drop Blaze and Frost? They remain premier Korean teams and their value didn't decrease hugely.
On April 04 2013 06:44 GrazerRinge wrote: edit: I have no idea why Azubu has "AG" in their name since their are not listed in DAX.
The DAX is an index of 30 major companies of Frankfurt Stock Exchange, that has nothing to do with anything. Also, you can be an AG without being a publicly traded company at all. Aktiengesellschaft just means that the company is owned through shares. Those shares could be held by a single person without any trading at all.
Seems Lars Windhorst is involved, and it doesn't get prettier.
REALLY interesting article.
[Lars Windhorst]'s been managing Sapinda International, a company owned by Robert Hersov. As well as Vatas Holding, owned by Hersov, too. Vatas Holding owned over 8% of Balda AG shares at one point, Balda is a manufacturer of plastic materials and electronic parts. In 2008, Vatas was sentenced to pay EUR29m to Audley Capital, a British hegde fund. In 2009, German Bank NORD/LB sued Vatas for EUR150m, after they were supposedly ordered by Vatas to buy 13 million shares of Balda. Vatas filed for insolvency after this.
[...]
Note that Hersov originates from the owners family of Anglovaal Mining, a South African mining company related to illegal weapon smuggling and bribaries of BAE Systems, a british weapons contractor.
[Lars Windhorst]'s been managing Sapinda International, a company owned by Robert Hersov. As well as Vatas Holding, owned by Hersov, too. Vatas Holding owned over 8% of Balda AG shares at one point, Balda is a manufacturer of plastic materials and electronic parts. In 2008, Vatas was sentenced to pay EUR29m to Audley Capital, a British hegde fund. In 2009, German Bank NORD/LB sued Vatas for EUR150m, after they were supposedly ordered by Vatas to buy 13 million shares of Balda. Vatas filed for insolvency after this.
[...]
Note that Hersov originates from the owners family of Anglovaal Mining, a South African mining company related to illegal weapon smuggling and bribaries of BAE Systems, a british weapons contractor.
Now that is some really shady stuff right there.
We shouldn't read too much into that. Six degrees of separation and all that. You can easily connect any noteworthy businessman with any other noteworthy (and shady) businessman like that with just a few steps. I think there even used to be a website that did that for you.
Still, great OP! I was having similar thoughts about FXO back then, too.
Seems Lars Windhorst is involved, and it doesn't get prettier.
REALLY interesting article.
[Lars Windhorst]'s been managing Sapinda International, a company owned by Robert Hersov. As well as Vatas Holding, owned by Hersov, too. Vatas Holding owned over 8% of Balda AG shares at one point, Balda is a manufacturer of plastic materials and electronic parts. In 2008, Vatas was sentenced to pay EUR29m to Audley Capital, a British hegde fund. In 2009, German Bank NORD/LB sued Vatas for EUR150m, after they were supposedly ordered by Vatas to buy 13 million shares of Balda. Vatas filed for insolvency after this.
[...]
Note that Hersov originates from the owners family of Anglovaal Mining, a South African mining company related to illegal weapon smuggling and bribaries of BAE Systems, a british weapons contractor.
Now that is some really shady stuff right there.
We shouldn't read too much into that. Six degrees of separation and all that. You can easily connect any noteworthy businessman with any other noteworthy (and shady) businessman like that with just a few steps. I think there even used to be a website that did that for you.
Still, great OP! I was having similar thoughts about FXO back then, too.
Agreed. Shadow_Broker (the user on reddit) said Hersov and Lars both showed up at the summer finals tournament of LoL during the prize ceremony, that and the SYSK LTD link as owners of the name Asubu is the only connection. Still trying to find images/video of the award ceremony where both can be seen, or at least Lars Windhorst.
On April 04 2013 07:08 Solarsail wrote: If they are spending money with no expectation of return, why drop Blaze and Frost? They remain premier Korean teams and their value didn't decrease hugely.
Thanks for summarizing what's generally known about Azubu. I tried to look it up a few months ago and got discouraged after their site yielded very little information.
At least everyone will know very little about Azubu together now, haha.
On April 04 2013 07:08 Solarsail wrote: If they are spending money with no expectation of return, why drop Blaze and Frost? They remain premier Korean teams and their value didn't decrease hugely.
Lets be realistic. They are throwing hundreds of thousands of dollars to the same eyeballs, over and over again, without actually making a return other than people knowing their name. This is money laundering.
On April 04 2013 07:06 mrRoflpwn wrote: Azubu is clealyl owned by a bunch of shady people. But these people have a lot of money and they seem to enjoy e-sports so they spend money on it. I guess it is kind of a hobby for them? Rich people waste lots of money in weird places. I guess spending it here is better than crashing a lamborghini 5 hours after you buy it then deciding to buy another one because you can. Some times people just dont care about a return and want to have fun with their money.
TLDR: Rich people waste tons of money, dont know why people are expecting that Azubu wants to get a financial return on their money.
Rich people dont get rich by not expecting return on investments.
On April 04 2013 07:08 Solarsail wrote: If they are spending money with no expectation of return, why drop Blaze and Frost? They remain premier Korean teams and their value didn't decrease hugely.
On April 04 2013 07:06 mrRoflpwn wrote: Azubu is clealyl owned by a bunch of shady people. But these people have a lot of money and they seem to enjoy e-sports so they spend money on it. I guess it is kind of a hobby for them? Rich people waste lots of money in weird places. I guess spending it here is better than crashing a lamborghini 5 hours after you buy it then deciding to buy another one because you can. Some times people just dont care about a return and want to have fun with their money.
TLDR: Rich people waste tons of money, dont know why people are expecting that Azubu wants to get a financial return on their money.
Rich people dont get rich by not expecting return on investments.
Depends on whether they view it as an investment or as a hobby.
Thanks for writing this up. As many other people, I've also been wondering how Azubu is actually making any money. Your article is a nice summary on the subject.
And when I read articles like this, I sometimes wonder whether there is a single company in esports that isn't run by a bunch of shady persons. There seems to be no sustainable business model behind Azubu, which suggests the assumption that they're problably not going to be a longliving venture.
If you want to have more information about Lars Windhorst's "criminal record" and speak German you might aswell just check out his Wikipedia page. Almost half the text there is about the various trials and insolvencies he was involved in.
On April 04 2013 07:43 nemonic wrote: Thanks for writing this up. As many other people, I've also been wondering how Azubu is actually making any money. Your article is a nice summary on the subject.
And when I read articles like this, I sometimes wonder whether there is a single company in esports that isn't run by a bunch of shady persons. There seems to be no sustainable business model behind Azubu, which suggests the assumption that they're problably not going to be a longliving venture.
If you want to have more information about Lars Windhorst's "criminal record" and speak German you might aswell just check out his Wikipedia page. Almost half the text there is about the various trials and insolvencies he was involved in.
making a huge generalization of many multi-million dollar companies because of one or maybe two shady large sponsors? jeez
On January 12 2013 10:22 dnosrc wrote: The majority stockholder of the AZUBU Europe AG is AZUBU Europe Limited - a shell company located on the British Virgin Islands. With Robert Hersov (a southafrican investor and entrepeneur) as Chairman of the Azubu Europe AG (seen at OGN Summer ceremony) its most likely his "baby".
On April 04 2013 07:24 gosublade wrote: "hurr durr, i dont understand, therefore money laundry durr"
Have any insight into what exactly they do?
no, thats why I don't offer any.
So you know exactly as much as anyone else, you just decided to be a dick about it? Or is there anything else you're trying to say?
opposing slander is being a dick?
I don't think the OP or the majority of the comments in the thread would classify legally as slander. In order for it to be slander, it has to be false. At this point, no one knows. For all we know, Azubu is a massive bitcoin mining operation.
Interesting OP, a lot of information about a company that has a financial impact but which has only one questionable product and murky structure. It's possible that this is deliberate, for various legitimate tax and legal purposes. (Depending on the company structure and location, tax records and SEC filings would shed a lot of light. Given a global headquarters in Germany and an apparently private structure (as opposed to publicly traded entities), I don't know what if any public declarations or filings are required.) There are some things that seem troubling, and there's a vibe similar to one I got when buying from a collectible coin and card store I used to visit. (It kept no transaction records, there was no register or computer, and they gave change from a large, literal "roll" (or "wad") of cash. Their prices were unbeatable. (As they often sold for a loss; when we compared manufacturer to store pricing of Magic cards via a friend that operated a gaming store, their price was exactly what WotC sells direct to stores. No retail markup at all. As far as gold and silver, they remained pretty much in line with spot prices.) And they would hand write a receipt for any amount, no questions asked, as our college SciFi club discovered to our glee. (Made getting reimbursed purchases easier, is all - when there is a per-transaction limit but funds are allocated in larger chunks. Rather than make many repeated trips, make one but with multiple transactions.)
That said, I don't know that Azubu or the store mentioned above are/were doing anything illicit/illegal. It is quite probable that everything is legitimate, and that Azubu is in the early phases of a long term plan which will have a return on investment that justifies the level of murkiness about the company. (A lot of eSports leagues seem to bank on the long term - MLG does well, but the people that invest into it right now are not looking for immediate returns.) And the underlying financials and business plans of companies in eSports are a very frequent topic of discussion - all of us as fans have a vested interest in seeing these enterprises pay off and are successful. We just would like to make sure it's not going to build a bubble and then pop like the housing market.
Of course, that Coin and Collectable shop is closed these days. And a very nice Italian restaurant opened up the next block over. Great food but very low prices. The few times I ate there I think I heard mandolin music.
Honestly, Azubu doesn't bother me as much as Phillip Morris, Annheuser-Busch, or Brazzers entering eSports sponsorship would. Oh, all three are solid companies, but they have a different public perception. Azubu currently is "Who? What do they do?" while those three all have various vocal detractors for the legal products they offer.
On April 04 2013 07:43 nemonic wrote: Thanks for writing this up. As many other people, I've also been wondering how Azubu is actually making any money. Your article is a nice summary on the subject.
And when I read articles like this, I sometimes wonder whether there is a single company in esports that isn't run by a bunch of shady persons. There seems to be no sustainable business model behind Azubu, which suggests the assumption that they're problably not going to be a longliving venture.
If you want to have more information about Lars Windhorst's "criminal record" and speak German you might aswell just check out his Wikipedia page. Almost half the text there is about the various trials and insolvencies he was involved in.
making a huge generalization of many multi-million dollar companies because of one or maybe two shady large sponsors? jeez
I don't know which "multi-million companies" you're refering to. And obviously I was exaggerating to make a point - teher are actually professional organization. It's yet hard to deny that the amount of unprofessionalism in (mostly non-Korean) e-sports organization is much higher than in most other industries.
On January 12 2013 10:22 dnosrc wrote: The majority stockholder of the AZUBU Europe AG is AZUBU Europe Limited - a shell company located on the British Virgin Islands. With Robert Hersov (a southafrican investor and entrepeneur) as Chairman of the Azubu Europe AG (seen at OGN Summer ceremony) its most likely his "baby".
Robert Hersov is a major businessman/entrepeneur, he is even on the board of Forbes. So I don't doubt he is connected to various companies of which one is connected to Azubu. But being his baby.. Probably not. Still have to see the footage of the OGN Summer ceremony, and it would be interesting to see if Lars Windhorst is also there. Lars ran a couple of companies for Hersov, and Lars is the one that had trouble with financial regulations.
On April 04 2013 08:06 felisconcolori wrote: I don't think the OP or the majority of the comments in the thread would classify legally as slander. In order for it to be slander, it has to be false. At this point, no one knows. For all we know, Azubu is a massive bitcoin mining operation.
Interesting OP, a lot of information about a company that has a financial impact but which has only one questionable product and murky structure. It's possible that this is deliberate, for various legitimate tax and legal purposes. (Depending on the company structure and location, tax records and SEC filings would shed a lot of light. Given a global headquarters in Germany and an apparently private structure (as opposed to publicly traded entities), I don't know what if any public declarations or filings are required.) There are some things that seem troubling, and there's a vibe similar to one I got when buying from a collectible coin and card store I used to visit. (It kept no transaction records, there was no register or computer, and they gave change from a large, literal "roll" (or "wad") of cash. Their prices were unbeatable. (As they often sold for a loss; when we compared manufacturer to store pricing of Magic cards via a friend that operated a gaming store, their price was exactly what WotC sells direct to stores. No retail markup at all. As far as gold and silver, they remained pretty much in line with spot prices.) ..
[...]
Honestly, Azubu doesn't bother me as much as Phillip Morrison, Annheuser-Busch, or Brazzers entering eSports sponsorship would. Oh, all three are solid companies, but they have a different public perception. Azubu currently is "Who? What do they do?" while those three all have various vocal detractors for the legal products they offer.
I really agree with this. I didn't write the OP to slander anything, it simply started with the question who, or what is Azubu? Curiosity sparked by the age of the company and the lack of information surrounding it.
It could be a venture capital, it could be a hobby of one of their investors.. But if it's an investment, how do they plan to earn money and when will they cut their losses? Because Azubu at this point looks like a sponsor, nothing more. Although normally sponsors invest money to get more brand recognition to sell their products, and everyone still wonders what product Abuzu sells
On April 04 2013 07:08 Solarsail wrote: If they are spending money with no expectation of return, why drop Blaze and Frost? They remain premier Korean teams and their value didn't decrease hugely.
Errrr no one was dropped...... the contracts were up (due to expire), the teams and sponsor couldn't agree to terms on a new contract so the partnership ended.
Frost & Blaze signed with CJ Entus
Azuzu picked up TPA & TPS over in Taiwan (TPA won the season 2 World Championships for LoL)
EDIT: As far as the rest of it though, interesting to say the least. Whatever come of Azubu, hopefully no one is esports is hurt too bad if it all comes crashing down
On April 04 2013 07:24 gosublade wrote: "hurr durr, i dont understand, therefore money laundry durr"
Have any insight into what exactly they do?
no, thats why I don't offer any.
So you know exactly as much as anyone else, you just decided to be a dick about it? Or is there anything else you're trying to say?
opposing slander is being a dick?
I don't think the OP or the majority of the comments in the thread would classify legally as slander. In order for it to be slander, it has to be false. At this point, no one knows. For all we know, Azubu is a massive bitcoin mining operation.
Interesting OP, a lot of information about a company that has a financial impact but which has only one questionable product and murky structure. It's possible that this is deliberate, for various legitimate tax and legal purposes. (Depending on the company structure and location, tax records and SEC filings would shed a lot of light. Given a global headquarters in Germany and an apparently private structure (as opposed to publicly traded entities), I don't know what if any public declarations or filings are required.) There are some things that seem troubling, and there's a vibe similar to one I got when buying from a collectible coin and card store I used to visit. (It kept no transaction records, there was no register or computer, and they gave change from a large, literal "roll" (or "wad") of cash. Their prices were unbeatable. (As they often sold for a loss; when we compared manufacturer to store pricing of Magic cards via a friend that operated a gaming store, their price was exactly what WotC sells direct to stores. No retail markup at all. As far as gold and silver, they remained pretty much in line with spot prices.) And they would hand write a receipt for any amount, no questions asked, as our college SciFi club discovered to our glee. (Made getting reimbursed purchases easier, is all - when there is a per-transaction limit but funds are allocated in larger chunks. Rather than make many repeated trips, make one but with multiple transactions.)
That said, I don't know that Azubu or the store mentioned above are/were doing anything illicit/illegal. It is quite probable that everything is legitimate, and that Azubu is in the early phases of a long term plan which will have a return on investment that justifies the level of murkiness about the company. (A lot of eSports leagues seem to bank on the long term - MLG does well, but the people that invest into it right now are not looking for immediate returns.) And the underlying financials and business plans of companies in eSports are a very frequent topic of discussion - all of us as fans have a vested interest in seeing these enterprises pay off and are successful. We just would like to make sure it's not going to build a bubble and then pop like the housing market.
Of course, that Coin and Collectable shop is closed these days. And a very nice Italian restaurant opened up the next block over. Great food but very low prices. The few times I ate there I think I heard mandolin music.
Honestly, Azubu doesn't bother me as much as Phillip Morrison, Annheuser-Busch, or Brazzers entering eSports sponsorship would. Oh, all three are solid companies, but they have a different public perception. Azubu currently is "Who? What do they do?" while those three all have various vocal detractors for the legal products they offer.
It's Phillip Morris, not Phillip Morrison. Big difference. Morrison was a famous Non-proliferation and Future Warfare scientist and theorist.
On April 04 2013 07:24 gosublade wrote: "hurr durr, i dont understand, therefore money laundry durr"
Have any insight into what exactly they do?
no, thats why I don't offer any.
So you know exactly as much as anyone else, you just decided to be a dick about it? Or is there anything else you're trying to say?
opposing slander is being a dick?
I don't think the OP or the majority of the comments in the thread would classify legally as slander. In order for it to be slander, it has to be false. At this point, no one knows. For all we know, Azubu is a massive bitcoin mining operation.
The burden of proof in on the accusing party, therefore it is false.
On April 04 2013 07:24 gosublade wrote: "hurr durr, i dont understand, therefore money laundry durr"
Have any insight into what exactly they do?
no, thats why I don't offer any.
So you know exactly as much as anyone else, you just decided to be a dick about it? Or is there anything else you're trying to say?
opposing slander is being a dick?
I don't think the OP or the majority of the comments in the thread would classify legally as slander. In order for it to be slander, it has to be false. At this point, no one knows. For all we know, Azubu is a massive bitcoin mining operation.
The burden of proof in on the accusing party, therefore it is false.
This is a forum man, clearly these are all speculations, its all opinion based, and people are welcome to state their opinion. It is not like any of the comments are representing a big news corporation.
So I actually found another rather funny connection. If you look at azubu.com's whois record it gives "denise@azubu.com" as the administrative contact e-mail address. If you google for that address you land up on the following korean page: http://www.gamejob.co.kr/List_GI/GI_Info_Read.asp?C_ID=gamebook
This obviously seems to be some Korean job market for people from the gaming industry. If you translate the page, it seems that the job offer from denise@azubu.com is on behalf of "GameBook" for "Game North Korea Co., Ltd.", if I interpret it right. After all, might North Korea be the puppet master behind Azubu?
On April 04 2013 07:24 gosublade wrote: "hurr durr, i dont understand, therefore money laundry durr"
Have any insight into what exactly they do?
no, thats why I don't offer any.
So you know exactly as much as anyone else, you just decided to be a dick about it? Or is there anything else you're trying to say?
opposing slander is being a dick?
I don't think the OP or the majority of the comments in the thread would classify legally as slander. In order for it to be slander, it has to be false. At this point, no one knows. For all we know, Azubu is a massive bitcoin mining operation.
The burden of proof in on the accusing party, therefore it is false.
It isn't in the UK, burden is on the accused, so Azubu could probably file in London (as an EU company) against the TL EU store or something.
On April 04 2013 07:24 gosublade wrote: "hurr durr, i dont understand, therefore money laundry durr"
Have any insight into what exactly they do?
no, thats why I don't offer any.
So you know exactly as much as anyone else, you just decided to be a dick about it? Or is there anything else you're trying to say?
opposing slander is being a dick?
I don't think the OP or the majority of the comments in the thread would classify legally as slander. In order for it to be slander, it has to be false. At this point, no one knows. For all we know, Azubu is a massive bitcoin mining operation.
The burden of proof in on the accusing party, therefore it is false.
It isn't in the UK, burden is on the accused, so Azubu could probably file in London (as an EU company) against the TL EU store or something.
"The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff."
Seems Lars Windhorst is involved, and it doesn't get prettier.
REALLY interesting article.
[Lars Windhorst]'s been managing Sapinda International, a company owned by Robert Hersov. As well as Vatas Holding, owned by Hersov, too. Vatas Holding owned over 8% of Balda AG shares at one point, Balda is a manufacturer of plastic materials and electronic parts. In 2008, Vatas was sentenced to pay EUR29m to Audley Capital, a British hegde fund. In 2009, German Bank NORD/LB sued Vatas for EUR150m, after they were supposedly ordered by Vatas to buy 13 million shares of Balda. Vatas filed for insolvency after this.
[...]
Note that Hersov originates from the owners family of Anglovaal Mining, a South African mining company related to illegal weapon smuggling and bribaries of BAE Systems, a british weapons contractor.
Now that is some really shady stuff right there.
We shouldn't read too much into that. Six degrees of separation and all that. You can easily connect any noteworthy businessman with any other noteworthy (and shady) businessman like that with just a few steps. I think there even used to be a website that did that for you.
Still, great OP! I was having similar thoughts about FXO back then, too.
Agreed. Shadow_Broker (the user on reddit) said Hersov and Lars both showed up at the summer finals tournament of LoL during the prize ceremony, that and the SYSK LTD link as owners of the name Asubu is the only connection. Still trying to find images/video of the award ceremony where both can be seen, or at least Lars Windhorst.
Well here's a highlight video from The Champions 2012 Summer Final. Lars Windhorst and Robert Hersov can be seen from 2:02 to 2:25. They are most definitely related to the company. In what way? Who knows? Only Azubu. XD
On April 04 2013 07:24 gosublade wrote: "hurr durr, i dont understand, therefore money laundry durr"
dude... there seriously is nothing more annoying on the internet than this fucking "hurr durr" shit.
please don't do it again.... ever.
Especially when they add zero insight into the conversation.
because the guy who thinks it's a money laundry based on literally zero evidence is huge insight, right?
pretty disgusting that some people on these forums think by the logic "i have the right to tell all the crap in the world about something i don't know, and HE has to bring the evidence that it isn't true! if you're opposed this, you're a dick!"
does it pain these people to not make an opinion about something they have absolutely no clue about? because that's what is the right choice there. or you know, assume the good, like a good person, and don't start to bash the reputation just because you feel you have the right to do so.
On April 04 2013 08:48 nemonic wrote: So I actually found another rather funny connection. If you look at azubu.com's whois record it gives "denise@azubu.com" as the administrative contact e-mail address. If you google for that address you land up on the following korean page: http://www.gamejob.co.kr/List_GI/GI_Info_Read.asp?C_ID=gamebook
This obviously seems to be some Korean job market for people from the gaming industry. If you translate the page, it seems that the job offer from denise@azubu.com is on behalf of "GameBook" for "Game North Korea Co., Ltd.", if I interpret it right. After all, might North Korea be the puppet master behind Azubu?
I'm guessing google translate? It says "Game Book Korea Co., Ltd".
Not sure where you'd get "north" from.
As for what Gamebook is, it seems to have been a social networking attempt in south korea marketed towards... gamers! It seems to have failed miserably.
Interesting, and definitely worth checking out. Azubu's recent investments in Esports have been huge, and while it might be nice in the short term, it could be dangerous in the long term if this investment isn't sustainable.
Silverio Park from Korea has many dreams. One of them is Berlin's O2 World arena, full of tens of thousands of cheering fans, watching on the stage and on giant screens an exciting online game between two professional player-teams ... And because Silverio Park tends to realize his dreams, it is also this time only a matter of time until the German capital would be packed by a similar wave of enthusiasm for public online game championships as his hometown Seoul.
Mr. Park came to Germany 15 years ago, and studied in Hamburg engineering. He has never regretted this decision, he managed to be well integrated in the Hanseatic city, established many contacts, worked as an interpreter for Korean businessmen. His career led him to KOTRA, the South Korean government's foreign trade and investment promotion agency, and had been working in its German branch for 10 years as a manager. During this time he became acquainted with the system of the German investment and economic promotion, with the predecessor company of GTAI, Invest in Germany, and also worked closely with Berlin Partner, the economic promotion agency of the capital.
“I had already six years ago contact to many German Internet companies, because a lot of Korean companies were interested in cooperating with them" - he says in his Berlin office, high above the city, with a great view of the government district and the famous Berlin skyline. “Korea is a pioneer in the field of online games, and the Koreans discovered social networking much earlier than Facebook. Since a stronghold of the German gaming industry is Hamburg, Koreans were looking there for partners with the help of the Hamburg Economic Development Agency, and attained good contacts to the gaming-cluster "game city: Hamburg." There are many publishers in Germany who buy online gaming licenses from Korea, such as Gameforge in Karlsruhe, which has already an annual turnover of more than 120 million euro.”
In December 2011 Mr. Park founded AZUBU together with a Korean businessman whom he met during his work at KOTRA. They chose Berlin as the location of the company's headquarters, because - as Mr. Park says – here is good, qualified, competent staff to be found, and Berlin also supports IT companies, which makes the capital even more attractive. They have a studio in Korea where the game developers are working, and the Berlin headquarters concentrates on product management, community management, PR, marketing, license purchases, and game-publishing.
When I ask Mr. Park what exactly AZUBU is doing, he stands up and picks up a large picture from the sideboard. There is a huge hall in the picture, full of people, celebrating the online-gamers standing on a podium, in a shower of confetti. "You see? This is an event of the Online Games League in Seoul, with two five-person teams. It was sold out, 17,000 people were in the hall, and we also had a live stream in the Internet. We want to organize such 2-3-hour events in Germany, elsewhere in Europe, also in North America, and establish professional and amateur leagues in different age groups - this work is already underway. We are building a social network for gamers, where fans can exchange information about the specific topics of the gaming world. In our community for example, the gamer, can chat with his own voice, doesn’t need to use the keyboard, because during the game, hands are busy.”
AZUBU Europe AG is currently looking for strategic partners in Europe and elsewhere, in order to realize these great plans. The business prospects of the company are promising: revenues come at a gaming event from tickets, live stream fees, cable television licenses, advertising, and merchandising. AZUBU already has four own highly successful professional gaming teams, and plans to "adopt" more professional teams from North America. AZUBU want to be a “big one” in eSports, in the world of virtual championships.
On April 04 2013 07:24 gosublade wrote: "hurr durr, i dont understand, therefore money laundry durr"
dude... there seriously is nothing more annoying on the internet than this fucking "hurr durr" shit.
please don't do it again.... ever.
Especially when they add zero insight into the conversation.
because the guy who thinks it's a money laundry based on literally zero evidence is huge insight, right?
pretty disgusting that some people on these forums think by the logic "i have the right to tell all the crap in the world about something i don't know, and HE has to bring the evidence that it isn't true! if you're opposed this, you're a dick!"
does it pain these people to not make an opinion about something they have absolutely no clue about? because that's what is the right choice there. or you know, assume the good, like a good person, and don't start to bash the reputation just because you feel you have the right to do so.
Well, I wouldn't call it substantial evidence, but they at least 2 people related to them who have long and chronicled histories of performing "shady business". Leads me to believe that the logic on this forum is just fine.
On April 04 2013 07:24 gosublade wrote: "hurr durr, i dont understand, therefore money laundry durr"
dude... there seriously is nothing more annoying on the internet than this fucking "hurr durr" shit.
please don't do it again.... ever.
Especially when they add zero insight into the conversation.
because the guy who thinks it's a money laundry based on literally zero evidence is huge insight, right?
pretty disgusting that some people on these forums think by the logic "i have the right to tell all the crap in the world about something i don't know, and HE has to bring the evidence that it isn't true! if you're opposed this, you're a dick!"
does it pain these people to not make an opinion about something they have absolutely no clue about? because that's what is the right choice there. or you know, assume the good, like a good person, and don't start to bash the reputation just because you feel you have the right to do so.
Dude I was just pointing out that the guy contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion other than "hurr durrr". I have my own suspicions on where the money is coming from for Azubu and I don't think it has anything to do with money laundering, just for the record.
Just because we can't prove their making money doesn't make them guilty. Until someone comes out says they ain't paying dues then feel its unfair to judge them.
On April 04 2013 09:43 Nerski wrote: I find it sooo funny how much speculation I saw in this thread when it took me a whoopin hour to figure out what it was.
On April 04 2013 09:43 Nerski wrote: I find it sooo funny how much speculation I saw in this thread when it took me a whoopin hour to figure out what it was.
On April 04 2013 09:43 Nerski wrote: I find it sooo funny how much speculation I saw in this thread when it took me a whoopin hour to figure out what it was.
On April 04 2013 09:43 Nerski wrote: I find it sooo funny how much speculation I saw in this thread when it took me a whoopin hour to figure out what it was.
Actually you didn't figure out anything. The article you came up with is already linked in the OP.
On April 04 2013 09:43 Nerski wrote: I find it sooo funny how much speculation I saw in this thread when it took me a whoopin hour to figure out what it was.
Yeah and what exactly did you figure out? :D
Read my previous post, before that one
I did. Care to elaborate on it?
It explains right in there who owns it, and what he hopes to accomplish. I really don't see what more there is to elaborate. He's a guy with money who wants to make money organizing esports stuff.
On April 04 2013 09:43 Nerski wrote: I find it sooo funny how much speculation I saw in this thread when it took me a whoopin hour to figure out what it was.
Actually you didn't figure out anything. The article you came up with is already linked in the OP.
I just worked 12hrs cut me some slack >< I still don't understand what shaddy thing there is to discover here, maybe I'll get it after getting some sleep /shrug.
On April 04 2013 10:00 MCDayC wrote: One quick thing, in your little bit about the GSTL piece, it was Waxangel who wrote it/is editor, Pathy is the graphics dude.
The reason they aren't so upfront about this is because the idea of Azubu (a company who's sole purpose is esports, and appears to be a passion project) might scare away potential investors and customers from RNTS, which would be horrible for Mr. Park. They're connected, but he keeps them as separate as possible to avoid this.
"When I ask Mr. Park what exactly AZUBU is doing, he stands up and picks up a large picture from the sideboard. There is a huge hall in the picture, full of people, celebrating the online-gamers standing on a podium, in a shower of confetti. "You see? This is an event of the Online Games League in Seoul, with two five-person teams. It was sold out, 17,000 people were in the hall, and we also had a live stream in the Internet. We want to organize such 2-3-hour events in Germany, elsewhere in Europe, also in North America, and establish professional and amateur leagues in different age groups - this work is already underway. We are building a social network for gamers, where fans can exchange information about the specific topics of the gaming world. In our community for example, the gamer, can chat with his own voice, doesn’t need to use the keyboard, because during the game, hands are busy.”
The OP makes their goals seem more mysterious and unknown than they actually are. Presumably they have long-term plans and as-yet unrevealed projects, though admittedly their early offerings including Azubu.tv haven't panned out well. But there's nothing dark or mysterious about this really. Mr. Park explained his goals well with that answer and the OP should be changed to reflect this.
On April 04 2013 11:02 Doodsmack wrote: The GTAI article explains everything we need to know about AZUBU's intentions and overall goals in the industry.
"When I ask Mr. Park what exactly AZUBU is doing, he stands up and picks up a large picture from the sideboard. There is a huge hall in the picture, full of people, celebrating the online-gamers standing on a podium, in a shower of confetti. "You see? This is an event of the Online Games League in Seoul, with two five-person teams. It was sold out, 17,000 people were in the hall, and we also had a live stream in the Internet. We want to organize such 2-3-hour events in Germany, elsewhere in Europe, also in North America, and establish professional and amateur leagues in different age groups - this work is already underway. We are building a social network for gamers, where fans can exchange information about the specific topics of the gaming world. In our community for example, the gamer, can chat with his own voice, doesn’t need to use the keyboard, because during the game, hands are busy.”
The OP makes their goals seem more mysterious and unknown than they actually are. Presumably they have long-term plans and as-yet unrevealed projects, though admittedly their early offerings including Azubu.tv haven't panned out well. But there's nothing dark or mysterious about this really. Mr. Park explained his goals well with that answer and the OP should be changed to reflect this.
So, basically that it's a money sink and passion project built from pure love of esports? -_-
On April 04 2013 11:02 Doodsmack wrote: The GTAI article explains everything we need to know about AZUBU's intentions and overall goals in the industry.
"When I ask Mr. Park what exactly AZUBU is doing, he stands up and picks up a large picture from the sideboard. There is a huge hall in the picture, full of people, celebrating the online-gamers standing on a podium, in a shower of confetti. "You see? This is an event of the Online Games League in Seoul, with two five-person teams. It was sold out, 17,000 people were in the hall, and we also had a live stream in the Internet. We want to organize such 2-3-hour events in Germany, elsewhere in Europe, also in North America, and establish professional and amateur leagues in different age groups - this work is already underway. We are building a social network for gamers, where fans can exchange information about the specific topics of the gaming world. In our community for example, the gamer, can chat with his own voice, doesn’t need to use the keyboard, because during the game, hands are busy.”
The OP makes their goals seem more mysterious and unknown than they actually are. Presumably they have long-term plans and as-yet unrevealed projects, though admittedly their early offerings including Azubu.tv haven't panned out well. But there's nothing dark or mysterious about this really. Mr. Park explained his goals well with that answer and the OP should be changed to reflect this.
So, basically that it's a money sink and passion project built from pure love of esports? -_-
And who is exactly funding it ?
I'm not sure it's a passion project, or at least I don't know that the founders have a real interest in gaming. They are just rich dudes who think they can make money in this industry, and are pursuing a very broad-based approach rather than one that is tied to any particular team or game. That pretty much sums Azubu up. Whether they have good specifics planned or whether they will be successful is another story, but there's no real mystery to this whole story. The OP pretty much misrepresents the situation.
But it's definitely good to call attention to the possibility that Azubu may not have a good plan and the river of money might run out in the future. But there's no mystery or corruption surrounding it.
On April 04 2013 11:02 Doodsmack wrote: The GTAI article explains everything we need to know about AZUBU's intentions and overall goals in the industry.
"When I ask Mr. Park what exactly AZUBU is doing, he stands up and picks up a large picture from the sideboard. There is a huge hall in the picture, full of people, celebrating the online-gamers standing on a podium, in a shower of confetti. "You see? This is an event of the Online Games League in Seoul, with two five-person teams. It was sold out, 17,000 people were in the hall, and we also had a live stream in the Internet. We want to organize such 2-3-hour events in Germany, elsewhere in Europe, also in North America, and establish professional and amateur leagues in different age groups - this work is already underway. We are building a social network for gamers, where fans can exchange information about the specific topics of the gaming world. In our community for example, the gamer, can chat with his own voice, doesn’t need to use the keyboard, because during the game, hands are busy.”
The OP makes their goals seem more mysterious and unknown than they actually are. Presumably they have long-term plans and as-yet unrevealed projects, though admittedly their early offerings including Azubu.tv haven't panned out well. But there's nothing dark or mysterious about this really. Mr. Park explained his goals well with that answer and the OP should be changed to reflect this.
So, basically that it's a money sink and passion project built from pure love of esports? -_-
And who is exactly funding it ?
I'm not sure it's a passion project, or at least I don't know that the founders have a real interest in gaming. They are just rich dudes who think they can make money in this industry, and are pursuing a very broad-based approach rather than one that is tied to any particular team or game. That pretty much sums Azubu up. Whether they have good specifics planned or whether they will be successful is another story, but there's no real mystery to this whole story. The OP pretty much misrepresents the situation.
Ahh I see it all makes much more sense now. Thank you D:
@Doodsmack I wouldn't say he is misrepresenting the situation. If they think they are going to "strike it rich" by investing in eSports, then they must have a LOT of money and a LOT of time to wait, because currently, it isn't some financial jackpot. I obviously do not know exactly how much money they are putting in and how much they are getting out of it, but from the looks of it... There's quite a bit being put in and... probably an okay amount being received? Funding tons of tournaments and tons of teams with tons of money out of nowhere is incredibly unusual. In order for their investment to be at all worthwhile, they will need to wait quite a few years before they see any significant returns. It's also a gigantic risk investing so much money into something like esports so quickly. There are wealthy people all over, but to invest it into esports of all places just seems silly. So, it is still a bit of a mystery.
But, I don't think any of us will find out the information we are interested in through browsing the internet. How they had so much money is not something we can easily find out, and the same could probably be said for the profitability of their investment.
On April 04 2013 11:28 Blargh wrote: @Doodsmack I wouldn't say he is misrepresenting the situation. If they think they are going to "strike it rich" by investing in eSports, then they must have a LOT of money and a LOT of time to wait, because currently, it isn't some financial jackpot. I obviously do not know exactly how much money they are putting in and how much they are getting out of it, but from the looks of it... There's quite a bit being put in and... probably an okay amount being received? Funding tons of tournaments and tons of teams with tons of money out of nowhere is incredibly unusual. In order for their investment to be at all worthwhile, they will need to wait quite a few years before they see any significant returns. It's also a gigantic risk investing so much money into something so quickly. There are wealthy people all over, but to invest it into esports of all places just seems silly. So, it is still a bit of a mystery.
But, I don't think any of us will find out the information we are interested in through browsing the internet.
IMO it's not a mystery because they think they can make money. The founder says so. And yeah, it's probably a pretty long-term plan. What other motive would there even be though? It's not like they're making any illegal fraud profit off of esports; they're just putting money in. It follows that they probably expect to make money.
On April 04 2013 11:02 Doodsmack wrote: The GTAI article explains everything we need to know about AZUBU's intentions and overall goals in the industry.
"When I ask Mr. Park what exactly AZUBU is doing, he stands up and picks up a large picture from the sideboard. There is a huge hall in the picture, full of people, celebrating the online-gamers standing on a podium, in a shower of confetti. "You see? This is an event of the Online Games League in Seoul, with two five-person teams. It was sold out, 17,000 people were in the hall, and we also had a live stream in the Internet. We want to organize such 2-3-hour events in Germany, elsewhere in Europe, also in North America, and establish professional and amateur leagues in different age groups - this work is already underway. We are building a social network for gamers, where fans can exchange information about the specific topics of the gaming world. In our community for example, the gamer, can chat with his own voice, doesn’t need to use the keyboard, because during the game, hands are busy.”
The OP makes their goals seem more mysterious and unknown than they actually are. Presumably they have long-term plans and as-yet unrevealed projects, though admittedly their early offerings including Azubu.tv haven't panned out well. But there's nothing dark or mysterious about this really. Mr. Park explained his goals well with that answer and the OP should be changed to reflect this.
So, basically that it's a money sink and passion project built from pure love of esports? -_-
And who is exactly funding it ?
I'm not sure it's a passion project, or at least I don't know that the founders have a real interest in gaming. They are just rich dudes who think they can make money in this industry, and are pursuing a very broad-based approach rather than one that is tied to any particular team or game. That pretty much sums Azubu up. Whether they have good specifics planned or whether they will be successful is another story, but there's no real mystery to this whole story. The OP pretty much misrepresents the situation.
But it's definitely good to call attention to the possibility that Azubu may not have a good plan and the river of money might run out in the future. But there's no mystery or corruption surrounding it.
Except they don't have an actual product. There's no e-currency, no social networking site. No media enterprises except a fairly recent and very poorly coded streaming website (which is using another company's streaming services.)
There's every reason to question who they are, because they don't actually do anything besides give out money. You can thank them for it, but it's still reason to be skeptical. "They're working on those things" is not a real response. You don't market your name for a year without a product to show for it.
I don't know what the owners' intentions are (although it'd be hilarious if it were a front for a North Korean operation, like some of the gold/item selling companies are/were), but not knowing them is reason to question them. Even thinking "we're going to make money on ESPORTS!" is reason to question them because most of those people are lying too. The healthiest organizations know it's a terrible venture if money if your top goal.
It's like saying "I think I can make money running an internet cafe in America in the year 2013!" And then a year later, the internet cafe is still open. That wouldn't raise a red flag for you?
On April 04 2013 09:47 fire_brand wrote: Sounds almost like it's a front for money laundering, doesn't it?
That doesn't make sense, money laundering is concealing the source of the funds, not giving it away.
For instance, I take $1m of illegitimate money and create bogus invoices for say, ad revenue on my website , that money goes to my website company's retained earnings which I distribute to myself and use to buy a piece of commercial real estate free and clear, then I do a cash-out refinance of the real estate and presto i have clean money.
thats just one degree of layering, so simple example, but anyone looking into why you have the money can see that it came from equity in real estate assets that you hold, and that you purchased with earnings of a business you own.
In this case, they are dumping the money into league and team sponsorships, I don't see how that sounds like a front for money laundering, you'll have to explain that one.
On April 04 2013 09:47 fire_brand wrote: Sounds almost like it's a front for money laundering, doesn't it?
That doesn't make sense, money laundering is concealing the source of the funds, not giving it away.
For instance, I take $1m of illegitimate money and create bogus invoices for say, ad revenue on my website , that money goes to my website company's retained earnings which I distribute to myself and use to buy a piece of commercial real estate free and clear, then I do a cash-out refinance of the real estate and presto i have clean money.
thats just one degree of layering, so simple example, but anyone looking into why you have the money can see that it came from equity in real estate assets that you hold, and that you purchased with earnings of a business you own.
In this case, they are dumping the money into league and team sponsorships, I don't see how that sounds like a front for money laundering, you'll have to explain that one.
On April 04 2013 09:47 fire_brand wrote: Sounds almost like it's a front for money laundering, doesn't it?
That doesn't make sense, money laundering is concealing the source of the funds, not giving it away.
For instance, I take $1m of illegitimate money and create bogus invoices for say, ad revenue on my website , that money goes to my website company's retained earnings which I distribute to myself and use to buy a piece of commercial real estate free and clear, then I do a cash-out refinance of the real estate and presto i have clean money.
thats just one degree of layering, so simple example, but anyone looking into why you have the money can see that it came from equity in real estate assets that you hold, and that you purchased with earnings of a business you own.
In this case, they are dumping the money into league and team sponsorships, I don't see how that sounds like a front for money laundering, you'll have to explain that one.
Conspiracy bro. The moon landing was a hoax.
I highly doubt a group of rich guys will just throw $5+ million into ESPORTS just as a passion. What do they potentially benefit from it? Since they have no true business front directly attached, it does make you question who they are and their intentions.
On April 04 2013 09:47 fire_brand wrote: Sounds almost like it's a front for money laundering, doesn't it?
That doesn't make sense, money laundering is concealing the source of the funds, not giving it away.
For instance, I take $1m of illegitimate money and create bogus invoices for say, ad revenue on my website , that money goes to my website company's retained earnings which I distribute to myself and use to buy a piece of commercial real estate free and clear, then I do a cash-out refinance of the real estate and presto i have clean money.
thats just one degree of layering, so simple example, but anyone looking into why you have the money can see that it came from equity in real estate assets that you hold, and that you purchased with earnings of a business you own.
In this case, they are dumping the money into league and team sponsorships, I don't see how that sounds like a front for money laundering, you'll have to explain that one.
Conspiracy bro. The moon landing was a hoax.
I highly doubt a group of rich guys will just throw $5+ million into ESPORTS just as a passion. What do they potentially benefit from it? Since they have no true business front directly attached, it does make you question who they are and their intentions.
Yeah... And these people already have such a bad history... man idk but it smells bad from miles away xS
I was watching Azubu for quite a while when I was directly involved in E-sports investment. Azubu is NOT a money laundering front. I don't see how what they are doing would be considered washing money at all. If they went around buying hotels in cash and property in weird places, then I would probably accuse them of that. But at the moment they just seem to be trying to enter a market to which they don't particularly know how to enter.
What they are actually doing? I would be surprised if anyone knows. They could be creating nukes for all we know. They are there, but they are not transparent as an organisation, and I dare say the people who are involved don't really care where the money comes from or whats behind the money. Either way, it will all eventually unfold, perhaps they will come out with a new game, or something amazing. Or they will go the way of sixjax etc. Its impossible to gauge without some transparency, which at the moment there is none.
Azubu.tv looks terrible and doesn't look like it will succeed without a major adjustment and some incentive for streamers. Their overall traffic is seriously poor compared to competition (twitch etc).
I would also be curious to know what affiliations the Azubu organisation has, to who or which company.
It could be selling porn on the internet for all we know. Gretech streams adult content according to wikipedia, so it could just be the same thing long term. A gretech like organisation which is legit and makes money and supports esports.
On April 04 2013 13:32 FXOBoSs wrote: I was watching Azubu for quite a while when I was directly involved in E-sports investment. Azubu is NOT a money laundering front. I don't see how what they are doing would be considered washing money at all. If they went around buying hotels in cash and property in weird places, then I would probably accuse them of that. But at the moment they just seem to be trying to enter a market to which they don't particularly know how to enter.
What they are actually doing? I would be surprised if anyone knows. They could be creating nukes for all we know. They are there, but they are not transparent as an organisation, and I dare say the people who are involved don't really care where the money comes from or whats behind the money. Either way, it will all eventually unfold, perhaps they will come out with a new game, or something amazing. Or they will go the way of sixjax etc. Its impossible to gauge without some transparency, which at the moment there is none.
Azubu.tv looks terrible and doesn't look like it will succeed without a major adjustment and some incentive for streamers. Their overall traffic is seriously poor compared to competition (twitch etc).
I would also be curious to know what affiliations the Azubu organisation has, to who or which company.
It could be selling porn on the internet for all we know. Gretech streams adult content according to wikipedia, so it could just be the same thing long term. A gretech like organisation which is legit and makes money and supports esports.
As always, a very wonderful knowledge bomb. Thanks, boss.
There are probably still ways for there to be money laundering involved, although I don't think that's the case. There may be some shady goings on, but actual illegal actions probably not. I was hovering around the "massive tax write-off somewhere" line of thought or maybe "so, these guys are like the old Quantic?"
Money coming into eSports is wonderful, but the industry as a whole has gotten burned from time to time by big flashy entrances and crushing crashes caused by exits, so it's something that fans might be interested in learning more about as time goes on.
On April 04 2013 13:32 FXOBoSs wrote: I was watching Azubu for quite a while when I was directly involved in E-sports investment. Azubu is NOT a money laundering front. I don't see how what they are doing would be considered washing money at all. If they went around buying hotels in cash and property in weird places, then I would probably accuse them of that. But at the moment they just seem to be trying to enter a market to which they don't particularly know how to enter.
What they are actually doing? I would be surprised if anyone knows. They could be creating nukes for all we know. They are there, but they are not transparent as an organisation, and I dare say the people who are involved don't really care where the money comes from or whats behind the money. Either way, it will all eventually unfold, perhaps they will come out with a new game, or something amazing. Or they will go the way of sixjax etc. Its impossible to gauge without some transparency, which at the moment there is none.
Azubu.tv looks terrible and doesn't look like it will succeed without a major adjustment and some incentive for streamers. Their overall traffic is seriously poor compared to competition (twitch etc).
I would also be curious to know what affiliations the Azubu organisation has, to who or which company.
It could be selling porn on the internet for all we know. Gretech streams adult content according to wikipedia, so it could just be the same thing long term. A gretech like organisation which is legit and makes money and supports esports.
I'm mostly curious what the e-currency project is supposed to be.
On April 04 2013 13:32 FXOBoSs wrote: I was watching Azubu for quite a while when I was directly involved in E-sports investment. Azubu is NOT a money laundering front. I don't see how what they are doing would be considered washing money at all. If they went around buying hotels in cash and property in weird places, then I would probably accuse them of that. But at the moment they just seem to be trying to enter a market to which they don't particularly know how to enter.
What they are actually doing? I would be surprised if anyone knows. They could be creating nukes for all we know. They are there, but they are not transparent as an organisation, and I dare say the people who are involved don't really care where the money comes from or whats behind the money. Either way, it will all eventually unfold, perhaps they will come out with a new game, or something amazing. Or they will go the way of sixjax etc. Its impossible to gauge without some transparency, which at the moment there is none.
Azubu.tv looks terrible and doesn't look like it will succeed without a major adjustment and some incentive for streamers. Their overall traffic is seriously poor compared to competition (twitch etc).
I would also be curious to know what affiliations the Azubu organisation has, to who or which company.
It could be selling porn on the internet for all we know. Gretech streams adult content according to wikipedia, so it could just be the same thing long term. A gretech like organisation which is legit and makes money and supports esports.
I'm mostly curious what the e-currency project is supposed to be.
If this was a scientific article, this would be its first sentence:
I ask this because, well I love companies spending insane amounts on Esports, but I am frightened if they pull out due to sloppy management, excessive activities and leave Teams without funding, and tournaments without a prizepool. Its not bad Azubu is here, but it could be bad when they pull out. So I’m wondering, if the money doesn’t come through azubu.tv, how long till they pull out?
I ask this because, well I love companies spending insane amounts on Esports, but I am frightened if they pull out due to sloppy management, excessive activities and leave Teams without funding, and tournaments without a prizepool. Its not bad Azubu is here, but it could be bad when they pull out. So I’m wondering, if the money doesn’t come through azubu.tv, how long till they pull out?
Pulling out doesn't work because the boulberethra secretes semen with the thingie in order to neutralize the urine....
On April 04 2013 07:24 gosublade wrote: "hurr durr, i dont understand, therefore money laundry durr"
Have any insight into what exactly they do?
no, thats why I don't offer any.
So you know exactly as much as anyone else, you just decided to be a dick about it? Or is there anything else you're trying to say?
opposing slander is being a dick?
No, posting a half sentence and two "hurr durr"'s as an answer to a well-researched and thought out post is being a dick.
I'd rather consider posting a 5 page "article" while being clueless as being a dick. (Edit: yes, I disagree with "well-researched")
Anyway, they're don't seem very transparent, but that's not illegal, is it. It seems kinda clear they're still in the process of setting something up. Money laundry seems a bit of a silly accusation as they currently have near to no income and are only making investments.
Ah, things are getting dug up again. *seeshisnameinop*
Subsidiary AZUBU Interactive GmbH based in Berlin is involved in the creation of a lot of community websites and games for German TV networks (i.e. Pro Sieben, sevengames etc.). Maybe that is quite profitable for them, who knows.
On April 04 2013 18:46 Teoita wrote: The Azubu thing is SO going to end terribly.
I feel so bad for the players on their team :/
If you look at their sc2 lineup you will notice it consists of all old timer gsl 1ish vets that ultimately fell out of the scene. It's more than a little odd that Azubu picked up all these players, especially when you consider the mystery that surrounds the organisation in general. Very generous of them, to say the least.
I think people are relating the business world to SC2 a bit too much here. It's not like in real life a company needs to mine X amount of minerals to buy something. Things like credit, private equity investment, trust funding, etc. are all possible scenarios here.
It is not that difficult to put together an economic program that shows potential profit for e-sports. Just because a company does not disclose all financial information in no way associates the company with illegal behavior.
This is the weirdest thing I've seen in eSports since that Saudi just randomly bought and dissolved CALeague in the middle of a season.
Imagine if everyone showed up for GSL Ro8 one night, and everything was just gone. No warning, nothing, just everything gone. That's how it was with CAL.
On April 05 2013 00:23 Crownlol wrote: This is the weirdest thing I've seen in eSports since that Saudi just randomly bought and dissolved CALeague in the middle of a season.
Imagine if everyone showed up for GSL Ro8 one night, and everything was just gone. No warning, nothing, just everything gone. That's how it was with CAL.
heh, so that's what happened to CAL. I always wondered what happened to that league.
On April 04 2013 18:46 Teoita wrote: The Azubu thing is SO going to end terribly.
I feel so bad for the players on their team :/
If you look at their sc2 lineup you will notice it consists of all old timer gsl 1ish vets that ultimately fell out of the scene. It's more than a little odd that Azubu picked up all these players, especially when you consider the mystery that surrounds the organisation in general. Very generous of them, to say the least.
They probably don't have a proper talent scout to pick up unknowns/b-teamers with potential that aren't on a team already. Lots of things shady about abuzucom but that isn't one of them.
Some things guys; I never claimed it to be scientific, just merely an afternoon where I indulged my curioustiy and wrote it in a topic.
I've haven't used the words shady or money laundering, fraude etc in the topic. I was just wondering Who Azubu is and what they do.
As I stated in the OP; if anyone could say what they are and how they earn money; the topic would have served its function.
Apparently no one can point me to their business model, their revenue, or what company exactly is backing them up. Enough stuff for question marks, but nowhere is it claimed that it automatically is shady.
I don't want to defend making a topic that just started by curiousity: there are enough posts questioning what Azubu is on TL and reddit. I merely wanted to expand on it. Its a topic on a forum, where users can give insight, facts, burn the OP down, or save it. All that matters in the end, is that the topic at hand is being discussed.
People replying to the OP reign over its duration, and the mods if they think it has run its course. Only one other thing can end this topic in a heartbeat; a reply from an Azubu spokesperson giving us all some insight in their goals and how to they expect to get there without losing their investors in the process.
Just treat it as your future son. If he claims he wants to be the biggest real-estate broker in the country, and suddenly started buying landpieces all around in this market.. Why not be curious as how he got his startup money and when he expects to break even. It would be logical to worry, even though you wish him the best.
Some things guys; I never claimed it to be scientific, just merely an afternoon where I indulged my curioustiy and wrote it in a topic.
I've haven't used the words shady or money laundering, fraude etc in the topic. I was just wondering Who Azubu is and what they do.
As I stated in the OP; if anyone could say what they are and how they earn money; the topic would have served its function.
Apparently no one can point me to their business model, their revenue, or what company exactly is backing them up. Enough stuff for question marks, but nowhere is it claimed that it automatically is shady.
I don't want to defend making a topic that just started by curiousity: there are enough posts questioning what Azubu is on TL and reddit. I merely wanted to expand on it. Its a topic on a forum, where users can give insight, facts, burn the OP down, or save it. All that matters in the end, is that the topic at hand is being discussed.
People replying to the OP reign over its duration, and the mods if they think it has run its course. Only one other thing can end this topic in a heartbeat; a reply from an Azubu spokesperson giving us all some insight in their goals and how to they expect to get there without losing their investors in the process.
Just treat it as your future son. If he claims he wants to be the biggest real-estate broker in the country, and suddenly started buying landpieces all around in this market.. Why not be curious as how he got his startup money and when he expects to break even. It would be logical to worry, even though you wish him the best.
ive read several times in this thread that it seems like they are creating browser games and all that stuff for big german tv channels (for example Sevengames.de for ProSieben)
Some things guys; I never claimed it to be scientific, just merely an afternoon where I indulged my curioustiy and wrote it in a topic.
I've haven't used the words shady or money laundering, fraude etc in the topic. I was just wondering Who Azubu is and what they do.
As I stated in the OP; if anyone could say what they are and how they earn money; the topic would have served its function.
Apparently no one can point me to their business model, their revenue, or what company exactly is backing them up. Enough stuff for question marks, but nowhere is it claimed that it automatically is shady.
I don't want to defend making a topic that just started by curiousity: there are enough posts questioning what Azubu is on TL and reddit. I merely wanted to expand on it. Its a topic on a forum, where users can give insight, facts, burn the OP down, or save it. All that matters in the end, is that the topic at hand is being discussed.
People replying to the OP reign over its duration, and the mods if they think it has run its course. Only one other thing can end this topic in a heartbeat; a reply from an Azubu spokesperson giving us all some insight in their goals and how to they expect to get there without losing their investors in the process.
Just treat it as your future son. If he claims he wants to be the biggest real-estate broker in the country, and suddenly started buying landpieces all around in this market.. Why not be curious as how he got his startup money and when he expects to break even. It would be logical to worry, even though you wish him the best.
ive read several times in this thread that it seems like they are creating browser games and all that stuff for big german tv channels (for example Sevengames.de for ProSieben)
Another strange piece to the puzzle, why hasn't anyone involved with Azubu just come out and clarified the situation? The biggest thing I believe everyone wants to know is where is all the money coming from, and how exactly do they expect to continue on the way they've been going without any sort of business model.
The money has to come from somewhere, and as cool as it is to think someone loves esports so much that they simply want to inject tons of money into the scene without expecting anything in return, I find that very hard to believe in this day and age.
The company seems mysterious. They aren't exactly shady, though some of the business men associated with these people are; that doesn't make it shady immediately, but it doesn't bode well for the company. I don't know if I like that companies like these are the ones that are spending money on E-Sports. That makes E-Sports harder to show as a legitimate business for other companies.
On April 05 2013 03:19 stew_ wrote: very good write-up. thing smells like money-laundering if you ask me
Honestly it would be too risky for someone dealing with an illegal cash flow to choose esports as a means to clean it all up. It doesn't really make much sense either, how exactly are they laundering the money if they're currently just dumping huge amounts of money into the scene without gaining anything in return (at least that we know of).
You guys here is some speculation on what Azubu is.
Early 1990's in Isreal bus ad space couldn't get sold so someone paid a marketing firm to make up a fictional drink called limonana and market it to prove the ad space was worth it, it got so popular that people started demanding it in restaurants and the like. So much so that it became a real and successful product:
Azubu is no different, they want to show investors that marketing via esports is super effective. They want to create so much hype and speculation that no one can take it any more and they could sell sandals marketed as Azubu sandals and they would make money just because everyone wants Azubu and it is such a well known name. Many other companies will look at this and say "hey, look that esports marketing is pretty good" and want to buy some ad space. And Azubu will have ALL (most of) of the marketing deals in esports allowing them to sell them at ridiculous margins.
On April 05 2013 03:22 docvoc wrote: The company seems mysterious. They aren't exactly shady, though some of the business men associated with these people are; that doesn't make it shady immediately, but it doesn't bode well for the company. I don't know if I like that companies like these are the ones that are spending money on E-Sports. That makes E-Sports harder to show as a legitimate business for other companies.
On April 05 2013 04:29 red_hq wrote: You guys here is some speculation on what Azubu is.
Early 1990's in Isreal bus ad space couldn't get sold so someone paid a marketing firm to make up a fictional drink called limonana and market it to prove the ad space was worth it, it got so popular that people started demanding it in restaurants and the like. So much so that it became a real and successful product:
Azubu is no different, they want to show investors that marketing via esports is super effective. They want to create so much hype and speculation that no one can take it any more and they could sell sandals marketed as Azubu sandals and they would make money just because everyone wants Azubu and it is such a well known name. Many other companies will look at this and say "hey, look that esports marketing is pretty good" and want to buy some ad space. And Azubu will have ALL (most of) of the marketing deals in esports allowing them to sell them at ridiculous margins.
On April 05 2013 04:29 red_hq wrote: You guys here is some speculation on what Azubu is.
Early 1990's in Isreal bus ad space couldn't get sold so someone paid a marketing firm to make up a fictional drink called limonana and market it to prove the ad space was worth it, it got so popular that people started demanding it in restaurants and the like. So much so that it became a real and successful product:
Azubu is no different, they want to show investors that marketing via esports is super effective. They want to create so much hype and speculation that no one can take it any more and they could sell sandals marketed as Azubu sandals and they would make money just because everyone wants Azubu and it is such a well known name. Many other companies will look at this and say "hey, look that esports marketing is pretty good" and want to buy some ad space. And Azubu will have ALL (most of) of the marketing deals in esports allowing them to sell them at ridiculous margins.
Not saying its the case, but its not hard to believe someone with several hundred million or even billions of dollars could have a passion and invest a couple million into e-sports. It won't make for a quick return on their investment, but they have the opportunity at something much bigger like being the commissioner AND owner of a league the size of something like the nfl in 60 years.
I feel bad; you heroically went through so much stuff to come to such a disappointing and predictable conclusion: nobody has a clue what AZUBU does, is, or where the money comes from. Personally, I'd want nothing to do with it, but I guess if the players and managers are getting paid actual money, then they're doing alright for themselves right now...
Regardless of the background surrounding Azubu, they have only helped e-sports grow, that is all I care about. Still, this was a great write up and very interesting, thank you.
On April 05 2013 08:30 tree.hugger wrote: I feel bad; you heroically went through so much stuff to come to such a disappointing and predictable conclusion: nobody has a clue what AZUBU does, is, or where the money comes from. Personally, I'd want nothing to do with it, but I guess if the players and managers are getting paid actual money, then they're doing alright for themselves right now...
personally it's more alarming that he didn't find anything rather than discovering the source. very important and meaningful that he shared this since we can all start questioning AZUBU and treat their various "investments" (if you can call it that) with more scrutiny or at least cautious optimism, and hopefully with more hungry eyes looking the details can be filled in.
someone jokingly mentioned a north korean conspiracy. i would not be very surprised if this was actually something on a somewhat smaller scale.
how don't people do research. the owner of Azubu was at the OGN LoL finals a few months back. It's a bank owner from Germany and he's filthy rich. He loves gaming just like the owner of Najin and Curse.
Azubu is not some black money, it's been known for a few months now.
On April 05 2013 15:30 isparavanje wrote: We should not over think, there are a lot of legitimate business plans that require some secrecy as well.
Exactly this. If Azubu come out and say "we're making $20k a month profits doing xxx and yyy that's how we're affording the sponsoring" then expectantly human nature will jump in and more people and business will do it for maximum profit until it becomes unprofitable. I personally do not care how they're getting the money as long as it isn't illegal. BoSs said he doesn't think anything shady is going on and with that in mind I don't see anything that promotes that it's shady other then unknown revenue income which isn't enough evidence to start calling them fraudulent.
If someone had found out about Azubu and anything shady, I am more then positive that you would of read about it when you researched it. I see this thread as potentially damaging to Azubu as most people are just saying it's a fraudulent business.
Personally I think the involvement of Lars makes it more legitimate if anything, because his charges are for fraud and not anything associated with "black money". That is to say he is more of a unscrupulous businessman than a criminal mastermind.
On April 05 2013 15:34 lastshadow wrote: how don't people do research. the owner of Azubu was at the OGN LoL finals a few months back. It's a bank owner from Germany and he's filthy rich. He loves gaming just like the owner of Najin and Curse.
Azubu is not some black money, it's been known for a few months now.
People would rather subscribe to the Glenn Beck school of research. I'm not saying that Azubu is a front for the manufacture and distribution of heroine, child pornography and counterfeit X-Men toys, but I've not seen any evidence that they're not.
On April 05 2013 15:34 lastshadow wrote: how don't people do research. the owner of Azubu was at the OGN LoL finals a few months back. It's a bank owner from Germany and he's filthy rich. He loves gaming just like the owner of Najin and Curse.
Azubu is not some black money, it's been known for a few months now.
Before accusing people of not doing research, try actually read the OP?
Didn't really do alot of additional fact checking, but I think it might be possible AZUBU is an investment company that rode the bitcoin wave? Just a wild theory here, but the crash of the bitcoin value happened in late November, which coincided with the setting up of Azubux. http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2011/10/virtual-currencies. If they had bought the bitcoin at its low value then and sold it off midway through 2012, their profit would have been about 10-fold. If they had held on until now 2013, we're looking at possible 20 fold return on investment.
Not to mention that their initial capital is no small sum considering the names involved.
Such a giant influx of money would possibly explain the willingness to spend on the esports scene. I think this has been brought up before as well, and they could very well be mining/trading in bitcoin so as to maintain sustainability here.
On April 05 2013 15:34 lastshadow wrote: how don't people do research. the owner of Azubu was at the OGN LoL finals a few months back. It's a bank owner from Germany and he's filthy rich. He loves gaming just like the owner of Najin and Curse.
Azubu is not some black money, it's been known for a few months now.
It could be still tax evasion or something shadey. It's definitely not a legit company.
On April 05 2013 08:30 tree.hugger wrote: I feel bad; you heroically went through so much stuff to come to such a disappointing and predictable conclusion: nobody has a clue what AZUBU does, is, or where the money comes from. Personally, I'd want nothing to do with it, but I guess if the players and managers are getting paid actual money, then they're doing alright for themselves right now...
personally it's more alarming that he didn't find anything rather than discovering the source. very important and meaningful that he shared this since we can all start questioning AZUBU and treat their various "investments" (if you can call it that) with more scrutiny or at least cautious optimism, and hopefully with more hungry eyes looking the details can be filled in.
I am inclined to agree that the fact that he didn't manage to find _anything_ solid is more alarming than not.
Thank you for your digging, enjoyed the read! Maybe one day we'll find out.
About the money laundering angle, (I have NO clue how this works, I've only taken a basic course in finance) I guess it would make sense to make a front company "employing" a lot of programmers claiming to make a product, but instead you just make some crappy half assed thing using others softare and blow yourself up in a relatively unknown market that needs money. Do small things here and there and keep people happy. But as I said, I don't know.
Honestly the money laundering angle really doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm no expert (far from it lol) but for money laundering to work the "business" needs to appear to make money, which I don't think anyone currently knows or understands how Azubu is managing to do that.
I think what is most likely is a millionaire whom has money to burn is involved, and they simply want to see esports blow up. A noble goal, and I hope they continue to do what they've been doing because I think everyone here wants the same thing, right?
Guys, you all shouldnt be so negative about AZUBU because they only did good things.
They could just me some very rich guys who share their passion for gaming an esports and just want to be a part of it. Maybe they legally earned their money individually in the last 15 years before Azubu and just founded Azubu to have a "name", without the goal of making more money. Imagine they just love gaming and want to help out the scene that they love and are basically very generous and nice guys and then they read comments about people accusing them of being untrustful and shady etc.
On April 05 2013 15:34 lastshadow wrote: how don't people do research. the owner of Azubu was at the OGN LoL finals a few months back. It's a bank owner from Germany and he's filthy rich. He loves gaming just like the owner of Najin and Curse.
Azubu is not some black money, it's been known for a few months now.
Ah esport is reaching the sport model : one random guy throw some millions to have fun. It's a good sign in a sense, almost all of the most entertaining football teams are just guys sinking hundred of millions in their IRL football manager.
On April 05 2013 15:34 lastshadow wrote: how don't people do research. the owner of Azubu was at the OGN LoL finals a few months back. It's a bank owner from Germany and he's filthy rich. He loves gaming just like the owner of Najin and Curse.
Azubu is not some black money, it's been known for a few months now.
Ah esport is reaching the sport model : one random guy throw some millions to have fun. It's a good sign in a sense, almost all of the most entertaining football teams are just guys sinking hundred of millions in their IRL football manager.
I thought we went past that. Didn't some rich guys buy and create iG for $6 million?
On April 05 2013 15:34 lastshadow wrote: how don't people do research. the owner of Azubu was at the OGN LoL finals a few months back. It's a bank owner from Germany and he's filthy rich. He loves gaming just like the owner of Najin and Curse.
Azubu is not some black money, it's been known for a few months now.
Ah esport is reaching the sport model : one random guy throw some millions to have fun. It's a good sign in a sense, almost all of the most entertaining football teams are just guys sinking hundred of millions in their IRL football manager.
I thought we went past that. Didn't some rich guys buy and create iG for $6 million?
On April 06 2013 10:03 skatblast wrote: Who cares where the money comes from? They could be selling heroine and using azubu as a front, atleast they support esports!!
Fans want comfort that they won't turn out like Own3d, and to at least provide a learning experience if it does.
Being an economically-/business-inclined individual, I like understanding what goes into a successful, sustainable eSports venture.
I think people should learn that it's actually not a good thing for e-sports if some millionaires wastefully throw in their private money into the scene. Yes that looks nice in the short term, but what e-sports needs to grow is sustainable success and therefore you need to have an appropriate business model. The likelyhood that that such investements end up in a desaster is pretty high. And if this happens, it will definitely scare away future investors from entering e-sports since they will be way more sceptical.
Hey Great write up, Im actually the reddit user Shadow_Broker and that was my comment from awhile back. The stuff I found was after an hour or so of digging but you have really gone above and beyond here and turned up a lot interesting information. That said they still seem to be a bit of the mystery and irrespective of any dodgy dealings or if they are completely legit I think there is still a concern that if the house of cards collapses that it will be very harmful to esports considering the money they have poured into it.
On a side note there was some other info i found not sure how relevant but might be worth posting I suppose. There was the Robert Hersov connection to a South African mining company(Anglovaal) which was mentioned in the pastebin. A blog post here mentioning both Lars and the Hersov family, granted its a blog and may not be totally relevant though there is a bit of info about their connection. I actually also ended up finding Robert Hersov's twitter account though it seems to be abandoned since 2010, nothing esports or gaming related in his tweets, though he seems fly around a lot. If you go looking for Lars on twitter, there's just a account where a bunch of retweeted ads. Finally an interetsing article here on Lars from Der Spiegal its german to english so the translation is pretty readable(original here if needed). There is some mention of Robert Hersov and even a bit of a south korean connection there.
I am in the live-streaming industry for a while, as some of you may know we are starting our 24/7 eSports TV. At the beginning, I will give you some hints.
1. AZUBU.TV Yes, that is true - at this very moment Azubu.TV does not look perfect, but they are just starting... As some of you already mentioned they use Brightcove's services. Some of you criticize Azubu, because Brightcove is expensive and the business model behind this needs to be terrible. Well, no. Of course Brightcove is expensive, everything is expensive if it comes to live-streaming. If you do not own your own datacenter, you would most probably have to pay around $.07 per GB.
If we assume, that there is approximetely 5000 viewers every hour on the stream, and the quality distribution looks like this: 10% - 1080p, 80% - 720p, 10% - SD, you generate around 500.000 UU (not real users tho) and 4-5 million PV every month. This generates traffic in the amount of 2 112 745 GB PER MONTH, which costs you about $140.000.
Let's compare this to Twitch. Three years ago they calculated their cost per customer with the various solutions as: CDN $.135, AWS $.0074 Datacenter $.0017. The CDN cost has gone down, but their datacenter cost is roughly the same.
Calculate it now. Azubu is using Brightcove's player, but noone said they need to use their CDN's, and even if they do that, there is a lot to do in costs optimization, as there is for example Cirrus2 technology (P2P, afaik YouTube is using this, as 90% of internet users got Flash installed) or compression, which can downgrade your costs up to 50%. Well, I will give you a hint - when LCS is going just check all the streams available: YouTube, Azubu and Twitch. Source image is the same, but why all the platforms are offering different quality? The answer is simple and it is placed above.
EDIT: Btw, their current transmission from LCS looks awesome. You guys need to chill-out a bit and see what comes from this in time. They just started and what they are doing is mostly optimization of the costs and used bandwith. They also will not offer all options at the beginning - it is part of a plan.
They are also generating some income from ads I believe, few days ago they were embedded on LCS website as a primary stream (if you look at Alexa Rank those jumps are the answer when LCS was live).
On April 06 2013 20:37 Shadow_Broker wrote: Finally an interetsing article here on Lars from Der Spiegal its german to english so the translation is pretty readable(original here if needed). There is some mention of Robert Hersov and even a bit of a south korean connection there.
This article is really interesting. So the investment company Sapinda is probably where the money comes from. This company moves billions from here to there, we will probably never know where it really comes from. Also this Lars Windhorst was a pretty big name once.
Not sure if it was mentioned but if you check the trade mark registration for azubu you will see that it didnt "just happen". Thus has been in the planning for a while.
On April 06 2013 21:38 SilverStar wrote: Not sure if it was mentioned but if you check the trade mark registration for azubu you will see that it didnt "just happen". Thus has been in the planning for a while.
Well they filed for trademark in december 2011 and sponsored the LoL spring championship in march 2012. It kinda did just happen. 4 Months from being nothing to a mainsponsor of LoL.
On April 06 2013 21:38 SilverStar wrote: Not sure if it was mentioned but if you check the trade mark registration for azubu you will see that it didnt "just happen". Thus has been in the planning for a while.
Well they filed for trademark in december 2011 and sponsored the LoL spring championship in march 2012. It kinda did just happen. 4 Months from being nothing to a mainsponsor of LoL.
I see, I just have the feeling there was a lot more planning involved than apparent but thats just my gut feeling. You don't randomly select a tournament and offer one of the highest price pools and then pull out. Feels a lot like trying to drive the prize pools up. Just my 2 cents.
Well, it'd be pointless to open a new streaming service to the public. They don't have the exposure to compete with twitch, and like user maciejkrupowies explained above, bandwidth is expensive. A premium service for their own players and partners makes a bit more sense.
On April 06 2013 22:45 heyoka wrote: You can't, it's invite only.
That is just lazy. If you're going to use a streaming service as your "front" you may as well put a some effort into it lol.
it's not lazy it's just trying to compete with twitch from a different angle.
if they can make azubu the place to go if you want to watch "the best players" and no one else, that's a unique thing they can market.
if they tried to waste resources and time making it an open service they would die out very quickly because twitch would just crush them in that regard.
edit: I have no idea why Azubu has "AG" in their name since their are not listed in DAX.
If you are listed in the German DAX you are one of the bigger Companys, just to be called an Aktien Gesellschaft you only have to be noted somewhere, not exactly in the DAX Index.
Fact of the matter is though, i tried to find any share called Azubu, Azubu AG or Azubu Europe (AG). Nothing. Only thing i found was some ppt by the former Head of the Aufsichtsrat (No idea what exactly it is in english), Silverio Park:
edit: I have no idea why Azubu has "AG" in their name since their are not listed in DAX.
If you are listed in the German DAX you are one of the bigger Companys, just to be called an Aktien Gesellschaft you only have to be noted somewhere, not exactly in the DAX Index.
Fact of the matter is though, i tried to find any share called Azubu, Azubu AG or Azubu Europe (AG). Nothing. Only thing i found was some ppt by the former Head of the Aufsichtsrat (No idea what exactly it is in english), Silverio Park:
As I've said before, you don't have to have publicly traded shares to be an AG. If you own a company, you can make an AG out of it and keep 100% of the shares yourself without selling a single one. That's nothing out of the ordinary.
On April 05 2013 23:30 AnomalySC2 wrote: Honestly the money laundering angle really doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm no expert (far from it lol) but for money laundering to work the "business" needs to appear to make money, which I don't think anyone currently knows or understands how Azubu is managing to do that.
I think what is most likely is a millionaire whom has money to burn is involved, and they simply want to see esports blow up. A noble goal, and I hope they continue to do what they've been doing because I think everyone here wants the same thing, right?
If you think about it, Azubu is owned by a shell subsidiary, itself owned by a larger holding company. Within Azubu are several divisions. There are so many ways to make it appear as if some money is being made. This is just one example of hundreds of possibilities, but if Azubu.tv screens ads by other companies owned within the same ecosystem, they can't be compelled to release statistics like cost per ad, number of views etc, and anyone auditing them wouldn't check either. The money that pays for these 'ads' could come from anywhere. They wouldn't necessarily even need to screen ads either. Azubu.tv could just be providing 'advertising' for other companies within the same ecosystem.... lots of possibilities.
We haven't seen a financial statement from Azubu, and we aren't likely to. Just because to any rational observer it's obvious that they're losing money in the grand scheme of things doesn't imply that they aren't flushing money through the system, converting illegitimate funds to legitimate funds.
Between this and Raidcall, it just doesn't bode well for Esports, to me. Sounds like some ambitious people or companies (guessing Blizzard) are really pushing to give content for people to latch onto, but it's just not happening. Maybe for LoL, but SC2 is just such a bad game. I mean, I love it- but it's so esoteric. Most of the games are terribly boring, just watch any of the PvP's coming out of the SPL right now... I can totally understand how a new person would turn it on, turn it off, and say "why the hell would I ever watch that?"
On April 10 2013 15:27 CursOr wrote: Between this and Raidcall, it just doesn't bode well for Esports, to me. Sounds like some ambitious people or companies (guessing Blizzard) are really pushing to give content for people to latch onto, but it's just not happening. Maybe for LoL, but SC2 is just such a bad game. I mean, I love it- but it's so esoteric. Most of the games are terribly boring, just watch any of the PvP's coming out of the SPL right now... I can totally understand how a new person would turn it on, turn it off, and say "why the hell would I ever watch that?"
I think HoTS is a huge improvement over WoL for both watching and playing. They just need to come up with a better way to lure more active players into the game. You can't fault people for not wanting to watch a game that they themselves don't play. Not to mention, you will never really understand the game enough to actually enjoy watching pro play unless you invest a decent amount of time playing it yourself.
What's wrong with Raidcall? I know they've been sponsoring EG and other tournaments and teams but at least they have a product that's being used by quite a number of streamers, and they're using e-sports to promote this product. I honestly would not have known what raidcall is if they didn't sponsor EG.
On April 11 2013 00:49 fzeroonline wrote: What's wrong with Raidcall? I know they've been sponsoring EG and other tournaments and teams but at least they have a product that's being used by quite a number of streamers, and they're using e-sports to promote this product. I honestly would not have known what raidcall is if they didn't sponsor EG.
IT'S A KOREAN COMPANY with 50 Koreans or so working there. They had some Americans who either quit or were fired.
The only thing German about the company is that the CEO is on the board of directors for some hedge fund company in Berlin. He's Korean, he ripped off a whole bunch of people in the late 90s and bailed. He lives in London, England now. He cannot return to Korea.
The company started off as a mass media site, i.e. IGN, then went to Social Media (epic fail!), now it's all about e-Sports because the only somewhat successful thing they could pull off was the OGN league. Because... OGN did everything.
They have very deep pockets, but I have absolutely no idea how they make any money and pay all those people who work for them at their office in Gangnam, Seoul.
Players are better off moving to teams like KT, SKT, Samsung, LG, CJ, Woongjin, STX which are real companies with real business models and aren't bound to die off randomly. It's like placing your life and career on a random dice by going with these shady guys.
On April 04 2013 06:25 ChapOne wrote: in my opinion raidcall and azubu don't want to make money right now. there goal is to now invest heavily and in a few years may get a revenue out of it. if you're a rich guy liking esports and looking for risky investments, why don't burn your money in esports?
what you have said has no relation to actual investment whatsoever. If you throw money heavily hoping to get a revenue in a few years, that's not investment. And if you are rich and want to just burn your money, that's not investment too.
On April 04 2013 06:25 ChapOne wrote: in my opinion raidcall and azubu don't want to make money right now. there goal is to now invest heavily and in a few years may get a revenue out of it. if you're a rich guy liking esports and looking for risky investments, why don't burn your money in esports?
what you have said has no relation to actual investment whatsoever. If you throw money heavily hoping to get a revenue in a few years, that's not investment. And if you are rich and want to just burn your money, that's not investment too.
Throw money? What does throw money mean? A lot of entrepreneurial businesses lose money in like the first 5 years. And they usually have investors making this possible. Why do they do this? Because they believe that the firm can make money long term.
Hm indeed azubu looks mysterious. My guesses are: There is no "real" company behind azubu. Azubu IS eports investment. Now what is their businessplan? There are some options I could imagine: -We just have an eports-fan who happens to have a lot of money. For some reasons he wants to support esports while remaining anonymous. So he uses azubu keep his anonymity (Yes, doesn't sond too likely) -There are some people who see esports as a growing future market, so they start investing to get a name in the scene. They already have a plan how they can profit later. Like you know, professional sports teams can make money for their owners. -Like the last point, but some people just happen to have found investors willing to invest into "something" with computers. Now they happily takes this money, hoping to somehow make money in a few years, and if they don't, then well it wasn't their money they lost.
Anway I will closely pay attention to what azubu in the future. Very interesting op to read.
On May 10 2013 08:57 LightningStrikes wrote: I knew someone who worked there.
IT'S A KOREAN COMPANY with 50 Koreans or so working there. They had some Americans who either quit or were fired.
The only thing German about the company is that the CEO is on the board of directors for some hedge fund company in Berlin. He's Korean, he ripped off a whole bunch of people in the late 90s and bailed. He lives in London, England now. He cannot return to Korea.
The company started off as a mass media site, i.e. IGN, then went to Social Media (epic fail!), now it's all about e-Sports because the only somewhat successful thing they could pull off was the OGN league. Because... OGN did everything.
They have very deep pockets, but I have absolutely no idea how they make any money and pay all those people who work for them at their office in Gangnam, Seoul.
I think something big is coming.
Anyone read recent korean news? (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2013/05/123_136442.html)
this is 3 day old news, but today they released more names of koreans who established paper company in virgin island for avoiding taxes and stuff. (http://news.nate.com/view/20130530n25757)
One of the name is Seok Ki Kim, the guy who ripped off people and bailed. He has been WANTED man in Korea since 90s, he was never caught.
If you google seok ki kim and Lars Windhorst, you will see how close their relationships are.
There has been rumor that Seok ki kim went into hiding and Lars was acting on Kim's behalf to launder money months ago.
It's pretty messed up. Azubu's korean is located in the same address as Gamebook Korea. It's rumored that Kim owns Gamebook Korea, too. Moreover, Kim was hunband of CJ(yes, CJ you know from CJ frost/blaze. CJ owns OGN too)'s vice-president.
These whole thing was on one of online news paper like year ago, but shortly after it was published it was brought down as Azubu threatened that they will sue the media company.
You guys are all being so negative about Azubu... I don't see what the problem is, as long as they pay their players and continue to invest into eSports. They're only helping the scene to grow (for now).
People here are killing eSports... Who wants to invest money into a community that tries to break them?
On May 30 2013 21:23 Tabashi wrote: You guys are all being so negative about Azubu... I don't see what the problem is, as long as they pay their players and continue to invest into eSports. They're only helping the scene to grow (for now).
People here are killing eSports... Who wants to invest money into a community that tries to break them?
On May 30 2013 21:23 Tabashi wrote: You guys are all being so negative about Azubu... I don't see what the problem is, as long as they pay their players and continue to invest into eSports. They're only helping the scene to grow (for now).
People here are killing eSports... Who wants to invest money into a community that tries to break them?
So lets just let this one ride..then when then shit hits the fan and just as the industry is about to pull in additional sponsors and other organizations interested in investing in ESports... those new interested parties will be oh so happy to be involved.
If we don't stamp out this shit early.. then this sort of stuff will be more of the norm.. not the exception and coming out of that hole will be much harder.
Korean news announced Kim owns paper company Multi-Luck Investment Limited in British Virgin Island for tax avoiding purpose. The one and only shareholder of SYSK Limited is Multi-Luck Investment Limited. As OP posted, SYSK Limited owns trademark of AZUBU.
Who is this Kim? He commited financial crime in Korea years ago and fled to Hongkong/Europe with billions of money.
You can start to guess where all this funding for e-sport is coming from when azubu doesn't seem to have clear source of income?
UPDATE: more articles in Korean that explains the relationship between AZUBU and Kim Seok Ki
Not to mention they are already published online by reputable newspaper companies, but with less focus on e-sports scene itself because of recent accusations on Kim and other well known names including son of former president of Korea, Chun-doo-hwan.
Kim is also the ex-husband of CJ's vice-president. Not sure if it's a coincidence that they sold their LoL team to CJ and sponsored a tournament on a CJ channel.
On April 04 2013 05:39 Otolia wrote: Azubu is a shady organisation and this whole ordeal reeks of money laundering from miles away. If I was still in Berlin I would visit the Handelzentrum just to see if there is indeed anything space lent by Azubu.
On April 04 2013 05:39 Otolia wrote: Azubu is a shady organisation and this whole ordeal reeks of money laundering from miles away. If I was still in Berlin I would visit the Handelzentrum just to see if there is indeed anything space lent by Azubu.
Proof of this?
You'll have to take my word for it since I am too lazy to translate the article, but basically Azubu is owned by a paper company, but Azubu itself is not because Azubu is justifying itself as a legit company by using its money. Thus, it was most likely that they were going to commit fraud by waiting for Azubu stock in German stock market to rise and make loads of money that way.
On April 04 2013 05:39 Otolia wrote: Azubu is a shady organisation and this whole ordeal reeks of money laundering from miles away. If I was still in Berlin I would visit the Handelzentrum just to see if there is indeed anything space lent by Azubu.
Proof of this?
The office address they provided in their official website was address of some abandoned factory building in berlin. After people mentioned it, they changed their berlin office address to the one in tall building which is shown on the website now.
Someone from lol.inven.co.kr made visit to that building. He could not find office named "AZUBU" on the directory on the first floor. He asked the guard if there is company named AZUBU in this building, the guard refused to respond. He took pictures and posted at lol.inven.co.kr. There was possibility that AZUBU is just small company and did not put their name in directory (didn't they pr themselves as famous media company based in germany tho?). someone from AZUBU called the guy and told him they moved their office to different floor and asked him to come over. The guy told us he will visit azubu. We never heard back from him. No one knows what happened to him. Yeah, true story.
Someone from AZUBU called the guy and told him they moved their office to different floor and asked him to come over. The guy told us he will visit azubu. We never heard back from him. Yeah, true story.
On June 06 2013 21:08 Clefairy wrote: Kim is also the ex-husband of CJ's vice-president. Not sure if it's a coincidence that they sold their LoL team to CJ and sponsored a tournament on a CJ channel.
On April 04 2013 05:39 Otolia wrote: Azubu is a shady organisation and this whole ordeal reeks of money laundering from miles away. If I was still in Berlin I would visit the Handelzentrum just to see if there is indeed anything space lent by Azubu.
Proof of this?
You'll have to take my word for it since I am too lazy to translate the article, but basically Azubu is owned by a paper company, but Azubu itself is not because Azubu is justifying itself as a legit company by using its money. Thus, it was most likely that they were going to commit fraud by waiting for Azubu stock in German stock market to rise and make loads of money that way.
I agree with you. Kim pulled off same stock market manipulation in 90s in Korea, and since then he's wanted man by korean government. He got tons of money from that incident and lives in London/Hongkong with Rolls Royce and other luxuries. He could have done same thing with AZUBU.
The new article specifically mentions that Kim has been planning stock fraud in Luxembourg. I don't know if it's about RNTS or AZUBU tho. As soon as AZUBU have gained enough reputation by sponsoring tourneys and e-sports teams, kim would have put the company in the stock market. It's all useless now tho, as everyone knows about who owns AZUBU
Korean news announced Kim owns paper company Multi-Luck Investment Limited in British Virgin Island for tax avoiding purpose. The one and only shareholder of SYSK Limited is Multi-Luck Investment Limited. As OP posted, SYSK Limited owns trademark of AZUBU.
Who is this Kim? He commited financial crime in Korea years ago and fled to Hongkong/Europe with billions of money.
You can start to guess where all this funding for e-sport is coming from when azubu doesn't seem to have clear source of income?
hahaha i remember the pitchfork preserver article, "AZUBU employee assures family it's not a scam"
So AZUBU is a money laundering front? Or a mostly fake company that the owner wanted people to think is legit so he could get the stock to go up and then sell it? I'm confused.
On June 06 2013 22:56 Doodsmack wrote: So AZUBU is a money laundering front? Or a mostly fake company that the owner wanted people to think is legit so he could get the stock to go up and then sell it? I'm confused.
i think it's more of a fake company for investment fraud than money laundering purposes
Just hope AZUBU isn't going to disappear completely, that would mean plenty of really good progammers would be teamless (SuperNova, San, TOP, violet, Symbol...) that would mean retirement for several of them...
Will be terrible news for the Korean SC2 scene if AZUBU disolves. No more AZUBU in GSTL and a lot of good players retiring without anymore income likely resulting in some retirements. I think players like Symbol and ViOlet will have no problem finding good new teams but for everyone else it'll be tough.
On June 07 2013 00:27 caradoc wrote: Nobody else finds the name of the paper company 'Multi-Luck Investments' hilarious? o_O
Asian companies often have some "good luck" stuff in their names.
yeah, I know. It could be a terrible translation too-- I used to go to a Chinese food place near my old university which had the english name 'double greeting wonton house', before I could read chinese characters I just assumed it was a weird word for word translation. Then I learned that the chinese sign said something like '7 happiness small restaurant'... To this day I cant figure out where the weird english name came from.
On June 07 2013 00:28 Tenks wrote: Where will I watch all my favorite SC2 players stream?!
I dunno man.... I dunno...
Too early to give up yet. There's still youtube and livestream!
It was sarcasm
yeah how dare he bringing up youtube and livestream as legitimate candidates for the new starcraft 2 streaming site, because they really do have a big shot there... man people just don't sarcasm right.
Yes, lets all pretend that Azubu's situation was 100% obvious. Classy. If they're proven to be legit, are we going to jump on the "I knew it!" bandwagon again?
The fact is; Nobody knows what they do or how they did it. Companies shroud their practices for reasons other than money laundering and investment fraud, no reason to act all high and mighty about how privvy you are to all this knowledge that may not even be true.
On April 04 2013 05:39 Otolia wrote: Azubu is a shady organisation and this whole ordeal reeks of money laundering from miles away. If I was still in Berlin I would visit the Handelzentrum just to see if there is indeed anything space lent by Azubu.
Proof of this?
Well I am not in Berlin so I cannot confirm myself. But IHZ website (the place where they are supposed to be located) doesn't mention Azubu at all. With the recent revelations, I assume the adress is only there for mailbox purposes.or just fictitious.
On June 07 2013 00:13 Jojo131 wrote: My poor uneducated mind is still having trouble connecting the dots and understanding the situation, anyone wanna help me a bit? T_T
Basic TL;DR of my understanding. Please correct me if i got something incorrect, or am missing something.
Azubu is supposedly a german company located in Berlin, and South Korea, except their office in Berlin doesn't exist, or at least not where they say it is. According to their co-founder, they also have a game studio in south korea (which no one knows about).
A guy called Lars Windhorst who people claimed to be the CEO. Lars has been found guilty of fraud and is close to a guy called Seok Ki Kim, another criminal who has been wanted in korea since the 90s. Rumor says that Lars helped Kim Launder money months ago. Their former CEO is South Korean llir kusari, some relatively unknown guy who, has also been convicted of fraud and theft.
Kim owns a company called Multi-Luck Investment, in British Virigin islands to avoid taxes, who is the only shareholder of a company called SYSK, Which own the trademark of Azubu.
wow o.0 what's this? are they expanding to new kind of services or what?
More info about Dr. Seok Ki Kim.
He's not just ordinary stock scammer you see on the market. He's very talented and expert in making money.
Some Bio on him: Graduated from Seoul National University with BA (Ranked #1 in Korea) Received Ph.D in Business from Harvard University. Worked at Bear Stearns in Wall Street as cheif of Asian division. Appointed to President of some bank in Korea (no longer exists) Married to vice-president of CJ group. (CJ is one of the biggest company in Korea alongside with Samsung, LG, Hyundai) Divorced and got married to actor or something.
With such talent, he could have made money in legit way, but I guess he was more interested in the amount of money he could make :/
I joked a long time ago that it was just a mob front or something because I never knew what they did to make their money. I never thought it would be true.
And multiply by a 100, if shit hits the fan. Azubu is the MAIN contributor in LoL. When people will actually know from where they getting the money, LoL in KR is DEAD.
If you followed Broodwar during matchfixing scandal you know what Im taking about.
Feeling a lil bad about having the Azubu logo now. I feel really bad about the players though. I hope they don't get completely screwed over because of all this info coming out.
And multiply by a 100, if shit hits the fan. Azubu is the MAIN contributor in LoL. When people will actually know from where they getting the money, LoL in KR is DEAD.
If you followed Broodwar during matchfixing scandal you know what Im taking about.
Azubu the main contributor of LoL? What? Since when?
All very interesting stuff however, hope it's not true but gut feeling says it all is.
And multiply by a 100, if shit hits the fan. Azubu is the MAIN contributor in LoL. When people will actually know from where they getting the money, LoL in KR is DEAD.
If you followed Broodwar during matchfixing scandal you know what Im taking about.
LOL and it has nothing to do with LoL. LoL will be the no1 esports in Korea for a very long time. Azubu has nothing do to in Korea because they dont sponsor a Korean team since 6 months and their last tournament is nearly a year ago.
And multiply by a 100, if shit hits the fan. Azubu is the MAIN contributor in LoL. When people will actually know from where they getting the money, LoL in KR is DEAD.
If you followed Broodwar during matchfixing scandal you know what Im taking about.
I thought Riot were the main contributors to LoL esports...
Don't know quite where from all this esports is dead/lol is dead talk starts.Azubu is just a sponsors.Actual gaming teams arent involved in the fraud itself.It is quite common for dirty money to be laundered in sports organizations such as fotball clubs simply because mostly have some sort of ngo status that allows money to be poured in without the authorities carring.I think half of the eastern european and south american football teams are founded by dirty money.As long as the players themsleves aren't involved i dont see the issue.And azubu wasn't that influential.the bigger the esports industry becomes the more shady figures will be involved in it.As long as the athlethes themselves aren't taking part I don't really see the impact on esports.The authorities will probably do their job and put the guilty to prison,
Don't really care, tax fraud is smart people taking advantage of a system thats shit. It's not close to the "fixes" that have been made of some eSport sponsors to fuck over consumers.
At least this guy is supporting eSport and haven't killed or raped someone.
And multiply by a 100, if shit hits the fan. Azubu is the MAIN contributor in LoL. When people will actually know from where they getting the money, LoL in KR is DEAD.
If you followed Broodwar during matchfixing scandal you know what Im taking about.
No, Riot is the MAIN contributor in LoL. Nothing will change if Azubu pulls out/falls apart.
thankfully Azubu's contribution to the LOL scene in Korea has ended last season. It won't be dead. Not sure what will happen to TPA/TPS tho.
Korean Government (IRS?) is investigating CJ group for tax avoidance on seperate case. If AZUBU is involved in it, things might get uglier as CJ owns OGN(ongamenet) and sponsors CJ Frost/Blaze, but I doubt it :/ I see no reason for Kim to cooperate with CJ after parting ways with CJ's vice-president.
On June 07 2013 03:50 Tobblish wrote: Don't really care, tax fraud is smart people taking advantage of a system thats shit. It's not close to the "fixes" that have been made of some eSport sponsors to fuck over consumers.
At least this guy is supporting eSport and haven't killed or raped someone.
On June 07 2013 03:50 Tobblish wrote: Don't really care, tax fraud is smart people taking advantage of a system thats shit. It's not close to the "fixes" that have been made of some eSport sponsors to fuck over consumers.
At least this guy is supporting eSport and haven't killed or raped someone.
On June 07 2013 03:50 Tobblish wrote: Don't really care, tax fraud is smart people taking advantage of a system thats shit. It's not close to the "fixes" that have been made of some eSport sponsors to fuck over consumers.
At least this guy is supporting eSport and haven't killed or raped someone.
On June 07 2013 03:50 Tobblish wrote: Don't really care, tax fraud is smart people taking advantage of a system thats shit. It's not close to the "fixes" that have been made of some eSport sponsors to fuck over consumers.
At least this guy is supporting eSport and haven't killed or raped someone.
hilarious that you say that supporting a community isn't important if it allows someone to support your community. Talk about egoism and stupidity at its finest.
On June 07 2013 03:50 Tobblish wrote: Don't really care, tax fraud is smart people taking advantage of a system thats shit. It's not close to the "fixes" that have been made of some eSport sponsors to fuck over consumers.
At least this guy is supporting eSport and haven't killed or raped someone.
i think you are confusing tax avoidance and tax evasion/fraud.
On June 07 2013 03:50 Tobblish wrote: Don't really care, tax fraud is smart people taking advantage of a system thats shit. It's not close to the "fixes" that have been made of some eSport sponsors to fuck over consumers.
At least this guy is supporting eSport and haven't killed or raped someone.
i think you are confusing tax avoidance and tax evasion/fraud.
corporations are smart people dude, why should they pay taxes if they figure out the system AMIRITE
How connected are Azubu with this? I didn't really understand, is there any direct link to anything SC2 related or is it just business on a whole other end?
On June 07 2013 05:26 IcookTacos wrote: How connected are Azubu with this? I didn't really understand, is there any direct link to anything SC2 related or is it just business on a whole other end?
People who manage Azubu are crooks, thats a fact cuz of their law issues in different countries. And yes you can say that it's sc related cuz they sponsor sc2 team ;p
For example one of the smaller things the Korean documents did not contain. There were 2 german Azubu companies, both led by the CEO "Silverio Park". (Also known as In, Sung, Park)
- Azubu Europe AG - Azubu Interactive (Recently renamed to Gapielon GMBH)
One of the former/current CEO's of Azubu interactive is a person called; 'Ilir Kusari'. This name is incredibly rare, and has an incredibly low amount of searches on the internet.
- http://bit.ly/13epvxa On this website it's stated that a individual named "Ilir Kusari" has been arrested on fraud and theft of large sums of money, at big companies. (Notice the age and nationality of Ilir)
-- Did you also notice that his birthdate has been changed to XX.XX.XXXX thanks to privacy issues?
Step 1: Go to https://www.handelsregister.de/ Step 2: Search for Azubu Step 3: Click the "VÖ" behind Gapielon Step 4: Click on the announcement of 11-4 Step 5: Check Birthdate/Crosscheck it with his age during the arrest Step 6: Make your own conclusions.
And multiply by a 100, if shit hits the fan. Azubu is the MAIN contributor in LoL. When people will actually know from where they getting the money, LoL in KR is DEAD.
If you followed Broodwar during matchfixing scandal you know what Im taking about.
I know this is TL and it's cool to hate on LoL
but why is a guy who obviously doesn't know anything about League in korea (or even interested in the game judging from post history) spreading bullshit, Azubu has neither been involved with a korean team nor OGN Champions for more than half a year now.
If Azubu is busted (korean)Sc2 will suffer way harder than League.
For example one of the smaller things the Korean documents did not contain. There were 2 german Azubu companies, both led by the CEO "Silverio Park". (Also known as In, Sung, Park)
- Azubu Europe AG - Azubu Interactive (Recently renamed to Gapielon GMBH)
One of the former/current CEO's of Azubu interactive is a person called; 'Ilir Kusari'. This name is incredibly rare, and has an incredibly low amount of searches on the internet.
- http://bit.ly/13epvxa On this website it's stated that a individual named "Ilir Kusari" has been arrested on fraud and theft of large sums of money, at big companies. (Notice the age and nationality of Ilir)
-- Did you also notice that his birthdate has been changed to XX.XX.XXXX thanks to privacy issues?
Step 1: Go to https://www.handelsregister.de/ Step 2: Search for Azubu Step 3: Click the "VÖ" behind Gapielon Step 4: Click on the announcement of 11-4 Step 5: Check Birthdate/Crosscheck it with his age during the arrest Step 6: Make your own conclusions.
Also, anyone ever dared to read the Prospectus and Audit of RNTS Media?
I'm definitely not well schooled in the financial world, so this might be perfectly normal.
But the moment someone like me sees money flowing around between companies that "OWN" eachother. That just raises red flags. What also raises red flags for me; Is that assets bought by several shareholders exchange prices for 10x the original price.
But this might be perfectly normal, I'm not schooled in this kind of business.
On June 07 2013 06:07 bananajk wrote: the domain gapielon.com links to the domain oldtimer-park.com. Can someone from Berlin check their Address Seydelstraße 21?
You can streetview it. As far as I could find it's just a normal apartment. That once showed up in a rental scam, but I think that's not related at all.
For example one of the smaller things the Korean documents did not contain. There were 2 german Azubu companies, both led by the CEO "Silverio Park". (Also known as In, Sung, Park)
- Azubu Europe AG - Azubu Interactive (Recently renamed to Gapielon GMBH)
One of the former/current CEO's of Azubu interactive is a person called; 'Ilir Kusari'. This name is incredibly rare, and has an incredibly low amount of searches on the internet.
- http://bit.ly/13epvxa On this website it's stated that a individual named "Ilir Kusari" has been arrested on fraud and theft of large sums of money, at big companies. (Notice the age and nationality of Ilir)
-- Did you also notice that his birthdate has been changed to XX.XX.XXXX thanks to privacy issues?
Step 1: Go to https://www.handelsregister.de/ Step 2: Search for Azubu Step 3: Click the "VÖ" behind Gapielon Step 4: Click on the announcement of 11-4 Step 5: Check Birthdate/Crosscheck it with his age during the arrest Step 6: Make your own conclusions.
Also, anyone ever dared to read the Prospectus and Audit of RNTS Media?
I'm definitely not well schooled in the financial world, so this might be perfectly normal.
But the moment someone like me sees money flowing around between companies that "OWN" eachother. That just raises red flags. What also raises red flags for me; Is that assets bought by several shareholders exchange prices for 10x the original price.
But this might be perfectly normal, I'm not schooled in this kind of business.
Yeah, this is pretty much daily business. You are not gonna bust a financial criminal by scanning his audit report. If it were that easy azubu would have been locked down a long time ago.
On June 07 2013 06:27 Fionn wrote: At this point, I'm pretty sure HoSeo is going to be the last eSF team standing.
Who would have put money on that 2-3 years ago. the last ones people expected to die was ogs and slayers.
Can't say I didn't suspect this when they came on the scene and sponsored the first 2 really big lol tournaments in korea. Doubt it would have had the meteoric rize that it did without that early money. People were rumormongering about it being a money laundering operation for some guy who left korea back in the 90's.
Still crazy though. Hope not too many things fall apart because of this.
It'd be nice if Azubu paid the CSL teams on time that they said they were going to pay back in April. We used the money to dump into a local tournament, and it was awesome except for the part where I had to foot the bill for what they should have paid by then.
Well, isn't this a bit of bad news. I guess it's not as shocking as it could of been, since from the start people were wondering how Azubu was pumping so much money into eSports when very few people knew who they were.
On June 07 2013 06:54 SidewinderSC2 wrote: It'd be nice if Azubu paid the CSL teams on time that they said they were going to pay back in April. We used the money to dump into a local tournament, and it was awesome except for the part where I had to foot the bill for what they should have paid by then.
On June 07 2013 06:27 Fionn wrote: At this point, I'm pretty sure HoSeo is going to be the last eSF team standing.
This comment is golden
On June 07 2013 06:54 SidewinderSC2 wrote: It'd be nice if Azubu paid the CSL teams on time that they said they were going to pay back in April. We used the money to dump into a local tournament, and it was awesome except for the part where I had to foot the bill for what they should have paid by then.
Still waiting on it, by the way.
I'm very sorry, but I think you're royally fucked.
For example one of the smaller things the Korean documents did not contain. There were 2 german Azubu companies, both led by the CEO "Silverio Park". (Also known as In, Sung, Park)
- Azubu Europe AG - Azubu Interactive (Recently renamed to Gapielon GMBH)
One of the former/current CEO's of Azubu interactive is a person called; 'Ilir Kusari'. This name is incredibly rare, and has an incredibly low amount of searches on the internet.
- http://bit.ly/13epvxa On this website it's stated that a individual named "Ilir Kusari" has been arrested on fraud and theft of large sums of money, at big companies. (Notice the age and nationality of Ilir)
-- Did you also notice that his birthdate has been changed to XX.XX.XXXX thanks to privacy issues?
Step 1: Go to https://www.handelsregister.de/ Step 2: Search for Azubu Step 3: Click the "VÖ" behind Gapielon Step 4: Click on the announcement of 11-4 Step 5: Check Birthdate/Crosscheck it with his age during the arrest Step 6: Make your own conclusions.
Also, anyone ever dared to read the Prospectus and Audit of RNTS Media?
I'm definitely not well schooled in the financial world, so this might be perfectly normal.
But the moment someone like me sees money flowing around between companies that "OWN" eachother. That just raises red flags. What also raises red flags for me; Is that assets bought by several shareholders exchange prices for 10x the original price.
But this might be perfectly normal, I'm not schooled in this kind of business.
Yeah, this is pretty much daily business. You are not gonna bust a financial criminal by scanning his audit report. If it were that easy azubu would have been locked down a long time ago.
People shouldn't put too much into audit reports. Auditors are there to provide REASONABLE assurance that there are no material misstatements in financial reporting statements. They are not there as a policing unit to detect fraud, just look at the investors who lost millions from enron etc.
On June 07 2013 06:27 Fionn wrote: At this point, I'm pretty sure HoSeo is going to be the last eSF team standing.
Unless a massive scandal happens with IM i am pretty sure they will.
IM will leave eSF eventually, mark my words.
maybe if nestea retires first. he really stepped on a lot of people's toes by representing all of the eSF players and giving a statement that basically amounted to: "fuck you, GOMTV has had our back for 2 years, and we're not going to let you shit all over their kindness".
On June 07 2013 06:27 Fionn wrote: At this point, I'm pretty sure HoSeo is going to be the last eSF team standing.
Unless a massive scandal happens with IM i am pretty sure they will.
IM will leave eSF eventually, mark my words.
maybe if nestea retires first. he really stepped on a lot of people's toes by representing all of the eSF players and giving a statement that basically amounted to: "fuck you, GOMTV has had our back for 2 years, and we're not going to let you shit all over their kindness".
Here's how I see it happening, down the road some time this year after the trade lock has ended, Prime is dead, Azubu is dead, who knows about the other teams. GSTL cannot go on because of too few teams. IM still has money to prevent their star players from being poached by Kespa teams. They join Proleague at LG's request for more effective advertisement.
On June 07 2013 06:27 Fionn wrote: At this point, I'm pretty sure HoSeo is going to be the last eSF team standing.
Unless a massive scandal happens with IM i am pretty sure they will.
IM will leave eSF eventually, mark my words.
Oh i don't doubt that (would love them in proleague tbh). I was talking in the notion that the team will be here for a long while, maybe not as part eSF but still the same team compared to other teams that will simply disband.
On June 07 2013 06:27 Fionn wrote: At this point, I'm pretty sure HoSeo is going to be the last eSF team standing.
Unless a massive scandal happens with IM i am pretty sure they will.
IM will leave eSF eventually, mark my words.
Team 8 disbands and IM takes their place.
Team 8 is never going to disband.
Oh they will one day. They can't find a sponsor and have been looking for a while now. Kespa has been running it out of necessity. It's like the NHL running the phoenix coyotes. They don't want to do that, but it's been hell for them finding a buyer for the coyotes. Though, they're also stubborn and should have sold the coyotes and relocated them the first chance they got. Instead it's just a huge money sink for them now.
Funny thing is that the only product they have that i know of is Ztalk. When I installed Z talk as part of the CSL I installed ... mumble and it opened a special chat channel and then in the text chat it was Z talk on their website.
Rumor mongering in the competitive gaming community has recently led to allegations of wrongdoing. These allegations are both libelous and slanderous and are completely without merit in fact.
It's important to note that this fails the Popehat standard for not being meritless thuggery. (What allegations? Without specifics, that's a vague attack against anything said about Azubu.) Fortunately, this isn't a cease and desist or anything legal. But c'mon guys. REFUTE with FACTS. Not just spinning tanks and looping audio clips.
Rumor mongering in the competitive gaming community has recently led to allegations of wrongdoing. These allegations are both libelous and slanderous and are completely without merit in fact.
It's important to note that this fails the Popehat standard for not being meritless thuggery. (What allegations? Without specifics, that's a vague attack against anything said about Azubu.) Fortunately, this isn't a cease and desist or anything legal. But c'mon guys. REFUTE with FACTS. Not just spinning tanks and looping audio clips.
Rumor mongering in the competitive gaming community has recently led to allegations of wrongdoing. These allegations are both libelous and slanderous and are completely without merit in fact.
It's important to note that this fails the Popehat standard for not being meritless thuggery. (What allegations? Without specifics, that's a vague attack against anything said about Azubu.) Fortunately, this isn't a cease and desist or anything legal. But c'mon guys. REFUTE with FACTS. Not just spinning tanks and looping audio clips.
What are you talking about? They clearly stated all the facts necessary. They're just providing infinite entertainment, for you, just out of the goodness of their hearts. What's illegal about that?
On June 07 2013 11:13 felisconcolori wrote: New statement from Azubu.
Rumor mongering in the competitive gaming community has recently led to allegations of wrongdoing. These allegations are both libelous and slanderous and are completely without merit in fact.
It's important to note that this fails the Popehat standard for not being meritless thuggery. (What allegations? Without specifics, that's a vague attack against anything said about Azubu.) Fortunately, this isn't a cease and desist or anything legal. But c'mon guys. REFUTE with FACTS. Not just spinning tanks and looping audio clips.
What are you talking about? They clearly stated all the facts necessary. They're just providing infinite entertainment, for you, just out of the goodness of their hearts. What's illegal about that?
Absolutely. When confronted with allegations that your money is from possibly illegal or at the very least shady sources, the fact necessary to refute this is...
"NANANANANA NO IT ISN'T LOOK AT THESE TANKS ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS!!!"
Seriously, go to that page and let it run for as long as you can stand the creepy esports whisper. DO IT.
Not to mention they are already published online by reputable newspaper companies, but with less focus on e-sports scene itself because of recent accusations on Kim and other well known names including son of former president of Korea, Chun-doo-hwan.
On June 07 2013 16:58 Drium wrote: I don't care how dirty the money is as long as it goes to ESPORTS thank you based korean criminals.
So you dont care that players like symbol, supernova or genius are being used for money laundry?
as long as they're not aware of it I don't see the issue.But I seriously doubt that a man who has to launder billions uses esports a coverup.He probably has some more respectable sources to make dirty dollars dissapear.You can not launder money by paying a couple of thousands of dollars to esports people you need big business to do that
No update. and no reaction from AZUBU EU/AZUBU Korea.
Last time when the same rumor spread through communities and news, Azubu strongly denied the rumor and threatened that they will sue whoever is spreading such rumor. They said they will hold news conference about it, but all they did was little interview.
This time, with solid evidence, they haven't done anything.
On June 10 2013 14:52 anemoneya wrote: No update. and no reaction from AZUBU EU/AZUBU Korea.
Last time when the same rumor spread through communities and news, Azubu strongly denied the rumor and threatened that they will sue whoever is spreading such rumor. They said they will hold news conference about it, but all they did was little interview.
This time, with solid evidence, they haven't done anything.
Probably because it's harder to tell people off for spreading rumors when it's so widespread, involves slightly more concrete evidence and involves more significant websites.
Honestly I'm most frustrated about how much of a blow the SC2 scene in Korea could take because of this. They just happen to sell off their LoL teams and buy up an SC2 team, right as they get busted for illegal activities. Whoosh, aren't we lucky~!
oh yeah, there IS an relevant update. quoting myself..
The office address they provided in their official website was address of some abandoned factory building in berlin. After people mentioned it, they changed their berlin office address to the one in tall building which is shown on the website now.
Someone from lol.inven.co.kr made visit to that building. He could not find office named "AZUBU" on the directory on the first floor. He asked the guard if there is company named AZUBU in this building, the guard refused to respond. He took pictures and posted at lol.inven.co.kr. There was possibility that AZUBU is just small company and did not put their name in directory (didn't they pr themselves as famous media company based in germany tho?). someone from AZUBU called the guy and told him they moved their office to different floor and asked him to come over. The guy told us he will visit azubu. We never heard back from him. No one knows what happened to him. Yeah, true story.
After my attempt to investigate Azubu's office, Azubu contacted me that they will guide me through their office. I went there with police officer. Suddenly they asked me to have tea with them and brought me to cafe, and then pathetically begged and begged. Out of pity, I decided to not post the outcome of my investigation here back then, but now it's all over. ROFLOL, in truth, there isn't an office on the 14th floor, just few desks lying around in a small space on 17th floor....
(this guy looked up list of companies on 14th floor and couldn't find azubu, later azubu PMed him that azubu moved to 17th floor and told him that he can come over to 17th floor if he wants. That was his first attempt to investigate)
On June 12 2013 06:55 Waxangel wrote: All azubu players drop from DH: Summer?????
Looks like Azubu is done for... Their players will be screwed as well.
Does anyone here know South Korean law? Would the Azubu players be charged for a criminal offense? Here in Canada, they can be. Taken from a Canadian lawyer's website:
If you are unaware that an item is stolen, purchasing or possessing the item is not illegal. Although you may have to return it to the true owner, you are not guilty of possessing stolen property. This does not mean that you can just ignore suspicious situations or state that you do not want to know where the item came from. The Crown can make a case that based on the circumstances, you must have known that the property was stolen. Proving that you had no knowledgeof the history of the property is a complicated matter and you should speak with a lawyer for advice on how to proceed with this defence.
Stolen property includes not only actual stolen items, but alsoindirect benefits gained from stolen items. For example, accepting money, knowing that it came from the sale of a stolen vehicle would qualify as possession of stolen property even though the money itself was note stolen.Another example of an indirect benefit of stolen property is having items that you know were purchased with a stolen or fraudulently obtained credit card.
On June 12 2013 06:55 Waxangel wrote: All azubu players drop from DH: Summer?????
Looks like Azubu is done for... Their players will be screwed as well.
Does anyone here know South Korean law? Would the Azubu players be charged for a criminal offense? Here in Canada, they can be. Taken from a Canadian lawyer's website:
If you are unaware that an item is stolen, purchasing or possessing the item is not illegal. Although you may have to return it to the true owner, you are not guilty of possessing stolen property. This does not mean that you can just ignore suspicious situations or state that you do not want to know where the item came from. The Crown can make a case that based on the circumstances, you must have known that the property was stolen. Proving that you had no knowledgeof the history of the property is a complicated matter and you should speak with a lawyer for advice on how to proceed with this defence.
Stolen property includes not only actual stolen items, but alsoindirect benefits gained from stolen items. For example, accepting money, knowing that it came from the sale of a stolen vehicle would qualify as possession of stolen property even though the money itself was note stolen.Another example of an indirect benefit of stolen property is having items that you know were purchased with a stolen or fraudulently obtained credit card.
I don't see how what you quoted could be used against Azubu players. Unless they were paid in 1 dollar bills with blood on them, then I doubt there was enough indication that it was so blatant that "you must have known that the property was stolen". I'm sure plenty of players have little idea exactly how money are generated by their teams except that they know sponsors somehow help, but surely Azubu could have had a silent sponsor.
This turn of events is sad, but not really surprising. It was always looking with high probability to be either 1) a rich person with no business sense, or 2) something very sketchy. I hope the players will manage, though I'm afraid the majority will retire with the current saturation of talent in Korea.
Seems Lars Windhorst is involved, and it doesn't get prettier.
REALLY interesting article.
[Lars Windhorst]'s been managing Sapinda International, a company owned by Robert Hersov. As well as Vatas Holding, owned by Hersov, too. Vatas Holding owned over 8% of Balda AG shares at one point, Balda is a manufacturer of plastic materials and electronic parts. In 2008, Vatas was sentenced to pay EUR29m to Audley Capital, a British hegde fund. In 2009, German Bank NORD/LB sued Vatas for EUR150m, after they were supposedly ordered by Vatas to buy 13 million shares of Balda. Vatas filed for insolvency after this.
[...]
Note that Hersov originates from the owners family of Anglovaal Mining, a South African mining company related to illegal weapon smuggling and bribaries of BAE Systems, a british weapons contractor.
Now that is some really shady stuff right there.
We shouldn't read too much into that. Six degrees of separation and all that. You can easily connect any noteworthy businessman with any other noteworthy (and shady) businessman like that with just a few steps. I think there even used to be a website that did that for you.
Still, great OP! I was having similar thoughts about FXO back then, too.
Agreed. Shadow_Broker (the user on reddit) said Hersov and Lars both showed up at the summer finals tournament of LoL during the prize ceremony, that and the SYSK LTD link as owners of the name Asubu is the only connection. Still trying to find images/video of the award ceremony where both can be seen, or at least Lars Windhorst.
Well here's a highlight video from The Champions 2012 Summer Final. Lars Windhorst and Robert Hersov can be seen from 2:02 to 2:25. They are most definitely related to the company. In what way? Who knows? Only Azubu. XD
Funny side note: During the award ceremony stream chat was going crazy with "who is this guy in the suit" and "guy looks so shady" Not kidding....
Knew this was probably bad news ever since I figured out who these guys were. Shady people staying shady seemed more likely than shady people invest in "lucrative e-sports market".
Feels like that cliche "where there's smoke there's fire" thing.
Props to the original OP who even made this thread to begin with. I never really opened the thread, I always saw it in the thread lists, but sorta just scrolled past, thinking it was some fluff piece written by a fan of Azubu or something, describing the team and the players. Just fully read it and found it extremely interesting.g
Seems Lars Windhorst is involved, and it doesn't get prettier.
REALLY interesting article.
[Lars Windhorst]'s been managing Sapinda International, a company owned by Robert Hersov. As well as Vatas Holding, owned by Hersov, too. Vatas Holding owned over 8% of Balda AG shares at one point, Balda is a manufacturer of plastic materials and electronic parts. In 2008, Vatas was sentenced to pay EUR29m to Audley Capital, a British hegde fund. In 2009, German Bank NORD/LB sued Vatas for EUR150m, after they were supposedly ordered by Vatas to buy 13 million shares of Balda. Vatas filed for insolvency after this.
[...]
Note that Hersov originates from the owners family of Anglovaal Mining, a South African mining company related to illegal weapon smuggling and bribaries of BAE Systems, a british weapons contractor.
Now that is some really shady stuff right there.
We shouldn't read too much into that. Six degrees of separation and all that. You can easily connect any noteworthy businessman with any other noteworthy (and shady) businessman like that with just a few steps. I think there even used to be a website that did that for you.
Still, great OP! I was having similar thoughts about FXO back then, too.
Agreed. Shadow_Broker (the user on reddit) said Hersov and Lars both showed up at the summer finals tournament of LoL during the prize ceremony, that and the SYSK LTD link as owners of the name Asubu is the only connection. Still trying to find images/video of the award ceremony where both can be seen, or at least Lars Windhorst.
Well here's a highlight video from The Champions 2012 Summer Final. Lars Windhorst and Robert Hersov can be seen from 2:02 to 2:25. They are most definitely related to the company. In what way? Who knows? Only Azubu. XD
Funny side note: During the award ceremony stream chat was going crazy with "who is this guy in the suit" and "guy looks so shady" Not kidding....
Knew this was probably bad news ever since I figured out who these guys were. Shady people staying shady seemed more likely than shady people invest in "lucrative e-sports market".
Feels like that cliche "where there's smoke there's fire" thing.
Yeah I watched these LoL finals of Azubu Champions Summer live and the moment I saw these 2 white guys in suits I instantly thought how shady they looked. Like, I was absolutely certain about it. Its actually strange how easy these types are to indentify. :D Did some further research back then about Azubu and from what I could find (or rather, from how much I could not find) I was sure this was about investment fraud or something similar.
Btw, here is a Spiegel article in German about Windhorst. Pretty intersting (fraud) career. He was a big shot once with very good connections to German politics.
The PDF also has photos of Windhorst and Hersov, the 2 guys at the LoL awards ceremony.
I have a feeling Riot noticed how shady Azubu was and pushed them out of LoL in Korea. Which might be the reason why their sponsorship of 2 very succesful LoL teams and the league suddenly stopped.
Seems Lars Windhorst is involved, and it doesn't get prettier.
REALLY interesting article.
[Lars Windhorst]'s been managing Sapinda International, a company owned by Robert Hersov. As well as Vatas Holding, owned by Hersov, too. Vatas Holding owned over 8% of Balda AG shares at one point, Balda is a manufacturer of plastic materials and electronic parts. In 2008, Vatas was sentenced to pay EUR29m to Audley Capital, a British hegde fund. In 2009, German Bank NORD/LB sued Vatas for EUR150m, after they were supposedly ordered by Vatas to buy 13 million shares of Balda. Vatas filed for insolvency after this.
[...]
Note that Hersov originates from the owners family of Anglovaal Mining, a South African mining company related to illegal weapon smuggling and bribaries of BAE Systems, a british weapons contractor.
Now that is some really shady stuff right there.
We shouldn't read too much into that. Six degrees of separation and all that. You can easily connect any noteworthy businessman with any other noteworthy (and shady) businessman like that with just a few steps. I think there even used to be a website that did that for you.
Still, great OP! I was having similar thoughts about FXO back then, too.
Agreed. Shadow_Broker (the user on reddit) said Hersov and Lars both showed up at the summer finals tournament of LoL during the prize ceremony, that and the SYSK LTD link as owners of the name Asubu is the only connection. Still trying to find images/video of the award ceremony where both can be seen, or at least Lars Windhorst.
Well here's a highlight video from The Champions 2012 Summer Final. Lars Windhorst and Robert Hersov can be seen from 2:02 to 2:25. They are most definitely related to the company. In what way? Who knows? Only Azubu. XD
Funny side note: During the award ceremony stream chat was going crazy with "who is this guy in the suit" and "guy looks so shady" Not kidding....
Knew this was probably bad news ever since I figured out who these guys were. Shady people staying shady seemed more likely than shady people invest in "lucrative e-sports market".
Feels like that cliche "where there's smoke there's fire" thing.
Yeah I watched these LoL finals of Azubu Champions Summer live and the moment I saw these 2 white guys in suits I instantly thought how shady they looked. Like, I was absolutely certain about it. Its actually strange how easy these types are to indentify. :D Did some further research back then about Azubu and from what I could find (or rather, from how much I could not find) I was sure this was about investment fraud or something similar.
Btw, here is a Spiegel article in German about Windhorst. Pretty intersting (fraud) career. He was a big shot once with very good connections to German politics.
The PDF also has photos of Windhorst and Hersov, the 2 guys at the LoL awards ceremony.
I have a feeling Riot noticed how shady Azubu was and pushed them out of LoL in Korea. Which might be the reason why their sponsorship of 2 very succesful LoL teams and the league suddenly stopped.
Maybe but it also be that CJ just out bid them. Afaik CLG was still partnered with Azubu up until now? Like streaming on Azubu.tv and such.
This was apparently scrapped because the Koreans, i.e. the staff, especially the bosses couldn't understand the articles. As I said in a previous post, there were some Americans there initially to help out with the English, direct the content, but they either quit or were fired.
On June 12 2013 06:55 Waxangel wrote: All azubu players drop from DH: Summer?????
Looks like Azubu is done for... Their players will be screwed as well.
Does anyone here know South Korean law? Would the Azubu players be charged for a criminal offense? Here in Canada, they can be. Taken from a Canadian lawyer's website:
If you are unaware that an item is stolen, purchasing or possessing the item is not illegal. Although you may have to return it to the true owner, you are not guilty of possessing stolen property. This does not mean that you can just ignore suspicious situations or state that you do not want to know where the item came from. The Crown can make a case that based on the circumstances, you must have known that the property was stolen. Proving that you had no knowledgeof the history of the property is a complicated matter and you should speak with a lawyer for advice on how to proceed with this defence.
Stolen property includes not only actual stolen items, but alsoindirect benefits gained from stolen items. For example, accepting money, knowing that it came from the sale of a stolen vehicle would qualify as possession of stolen property even though the money itself was note stolen.Another example of an indirect benefit of stolen property is having items that you know were purchased with a stolen or fraudulently obtained credit card.
I don't see how what you quoted could be used against Azubu players. Unless they were paid in 1 dollar bills with blood on them, then I doubt there was enough indication that it was so blatant that "you must have known that the property was stolen". I'm sure plenty of players have little idea exactly how money are generated by their teams except that they know sponsors somehow help, but surely Azubu could have had a silent sponsor.
This turn of events is sad, but not really surprising. It was always looking with high probability to be either 1) a rich person with no business sense, or 2) something very sketchy. I hope the players will manage, though I'm afraid the majority will retire with the current saturation of talent in Korea.
Depends on the laws of the locality in play, as well as whether civil, criminal, or tax related.
As an example, the IRS can nail anyone remotely connected to a company. (Oh, you were just a secretary? Sorry, you're the only person we can find. You're liable.) Civil tort may allow this as well. Not sure about criminal law. Keep in mind, I'm not a lawyer. And this is only my limited understanding of US law. It may be wrong.
But yes, it's possible to be just an employee (or contractor) and get screwed because your bosses are asshats.
(Also, in the US, with regards to criminal law, I forgot about RICO - it allows prosecution of anyone involved if it's a "criminal enterprise".)
On June 12 2013 06:55 Waxangel wrote: All azubu players drop from DH: Summer?????
Looks like Azubu is done for... Their players will be screwed as well.
Does anyone here know South Korean law? Would the Azubu players be charged for a criminal offense? Here in Canada, they can be. Taken from a Canadian lawyer's website:
If you are unaware that an item is stolen, purchasing or possessing the item is not illegal. Although you may have to return it to the true owner, you are not guilty of possessing stolen property. This does not mean that you can just ignore suspicious situations or state that you do not want to know where the item came from. The Crown can make a case that based on the circumstances, you must have known that the property was stolen. Proving that you had no knowledgeof the history of the property is a complicated matter and you should speak with a lawyer for advice on how to proceed with this defence.
Stolen property includes not only actual stolen items, but alsoindirect benefits gained from stolen items. For example, accepting money, knowing that it came from the sale of a stolen vehicle would qualify as possession of stolen property even though the money itself was note stolen.Another example of an indirect benefit of stolen property is having items that you know were purchased with a stolen or fraudulently obtained credit card.
I don't see how what you quoted could be used against Azubu players. Unless they were paid in 1 dollar bills with blood on them, then I doubt there was enough indication that it was so blatant that "you must have known that the property was stolen". I'm sure plenty of players have little idea exactly how money are generated by their teams except that they know sponsors somehow help, but surely Azubu could have had a silent sponsor.
This turn of events is sad, but not really surprising. It was always looking with high probability to be either 1) a rich person with no business sense, or 2) something very sketchy. I hope the players will manage, though I'm afraid the majority will retire with the current saturation of talent in Korea.
Well look at it this way. Everyone knows that Azubu is involved with money laundering. Unless the players, coaches, etc. are all dense, then they know as well. The police can go after them because the players now know they are getting paid and spending illegal funds.
On June 12 2013 06:55 Waxangel wrote: All azubu players drop from DH: Summer?????
Looks like Azubu is done for... Their players will be screwed as well.
Does anyone here know South Korean law? Would the Azubu players be charged for a criminal offense? Here in Canada, they can be. Taken from a Canadian lawyer's website:
If you are unaware that an item is stolen, purchasing or possessing the item is not illegal. Although you may have to return it to the true owner, you are not guilty of possessing stolen property. This does not mean that you can just ignore suspicious situations or state that you do not want to know where the item came from. The Crown can make a case that based on the circumstances, you must have known that the property was stolen. Proving that you had no knowledgeof the history of the property is a complicated matter and you should speak with a lawyer for advice on how to proceed with this defence.
Stolen property includes not only actual stolen items, but alsoindirect benefits gained from stolen items. For example, accepting money, knowing that it came from the sale of a stolen vehicle would qualify as possession of stolen property even though the money itself was note stolen.Another example of an indirect benefit of stolen property is having items that you know were purchased with a stolen or fraudulently obtained credit card.
I don't see how what you quoted could be used against Azubu players. Unless they were paid in 1 dollar bills with blood on them, then I doubt there was enough indication that it was so blatant that "you must have known that the property was stolen". I'm sure plenty of players have little idea exactly how money are generated by their teams except that they know sponsors somehow help, but surely Azubu could have had a silent sponsor.
This turn of events is sad, but not really surprising. It was always looking with high probability to be either 1) a rich person with no business sense, or 2) something very sketchy. I hope the players will manage, though I'm afraid the majority will retire with the current saturation of talent in Korea.
Well look at it this way. Everyone knows that Azubu is involved with money laundering. Unless the players, coaches, etc. are all dense, then they know as well. The police can go after them because the players now know they are getting paid and spending illegal funds.
That's not at all how it works, from a legal perspective.
Insung Silverio Park (one of the guy in OP's post), known as co-founder of AZUBU (another co-founder's name is unknown, but we can now guess it could be Kim seok ki), posted this on his blog: http://insung.de/
"I resigned from director position of AZUBU headquarter on April 2013. Therefore, direct all AZUBU related questions to AZUBU homepage. Thanks"
On June 13 2013 03:22 SilverStar wrote: I wonder how much Riot knew of Azubus business when they got involved with them in Korea.
What leads you to believe that Riot in particular might know something all other parties did not. After all Riot is a big company, with many loose mouths.
A more interesting connection would be what did OGN know about Azubu before letting them sponsor their tournament. I myself wonder if OGN could be held liable for anything through a financial connection of the prize money that originated from Azubu.
On June 13 2013 03:22 SilverStar wrote: I wonder how much Riot knew of Azubus business when they got involved with them in Korea.
What leads you to believe that Riot in particular might know something all other parties did not. After all Riot is a big company, with many loose mouths.
A more interesting connection would be what did OGN know about Azubu before letting them sponsor their tournament. I myself wonder if OGN could be held liable for anything through a financial connection of the prize money that originated from Azubu.
Ah someone from the lol sub-section. I was confused at first why you interpreted my question in such negative manner against riot, lol.
OGN was responsible for broadcasting the tournament. The rest was run by riot.
On June 13 2013 03:22 SilverStar wrote: I wonder how much Riot knew of Azubus business when they got involved with them in Korea.
What leads you to believe that Riot in particular might know something all other parties did not. After all Riot is a big company, with many loose mouths.
A more interesting connection would be what did OGN know about Azubu before letting them sponsor their tournament. I myself wonder if OGN could be held liable for anything through a financial connection of the prize money that originated from Azubu.
Ah someone from the lol sub-section. I was confused at first why you interpreted my question in such negative manner against riot, lol.
OGN was responsible for broadcasting the tournament. The rest was run by riot.
Thanks for recognizing me. Oops I mean calling me out on being a poster in the LoL subforum. lol?
Ya I interpreted your question in a negative manner because it was written in such a way that with your "information" you would single out Riot of all the involved parties. Seems negative to me.
http://leaguepedia.com/wiki/Azubu_The_Champions_Spring_2012 OGN ran the entire tournament and they still run every tournament by themselves. Riot sanctions them to run the tournaments on their own. Direct your attention to the sponsor please.
Next time do your research before making aggressive claims bud.
On June 13 2013 03:22 SilverStar wrote: I wonder how much Riot knew of Azubus business when they got involved with them in Korea.
What leads you to believe that Riot in particular might know something all other parties did not. After all Riot is a big company, with many loose mouths.
A more interesting connection would be what did OGN know about Azubu before letting them sponsor their tournament. I myself wonder if OGN could be held liable for anything through a financial connection of the prize money that originated from Azubu.
They might have connection, tho it would mean devastation to e-sports scene in Korea. I don't wanna believe it either.
You guys know why all this new information regarding Kim and his paper company was brought up to the surface all of sudden?
There are two big things are going on in Korea right now.
1. Korean government is actively investigating CJ group for tax evasion through paper companies established abroad. They already have search warrant and is about to arrest big names. 2. On the other hand, those called investigative journalists independently found names and founders of paper companies founded in British Virgin Island for tax evasion purposes. One of released name was Kim Seok Ki.
First of all, CJ = OGN. They are the same company.
If korean government finds connection between Kim's paper companies and CJ's money, then it's BOOM.
and dont forget Kim was ex-husband of CJ's vice president...
On June 12 2013 06:55 Waxangel wrote: All azubu players drop from DH: Summer?????
Looks like Azubu is done for... Their players will be screwed as well.
Does anyone here know South Korean law? Would the Azubu players be charged for a criminal offense? Here in Canada, they can be. Taken from a Canadian lawyer's website:
If you are unaware that an item is stolen, purchasing or possessing the item is not illegal. Although you may have to return it to the true owner, you are not guilty of possessing stolen property. This does not mean that you can just ignore suspicious situations or state that you do not want to know where the item came from. The Crown can make a case that based on the circumstances, you must have known that the property was stolen. Proving that you had no knowledgeof the history of the property is a complicated matter and you should speak with a lawyer for advice on how to proceed with this defence.
Stolen property includes not only actual stolen items, but alsoindirect benefits gained from stolen items. For example, accepting money, knowing that it came from the sale of a stolen vehicle would qualify as possession of stolen property even though the money itself was note stolen.Another example of an indirect benefit of stolen property is having items that you know were purchased with a stolen or fraudulently obtained credit card.
I don't see how what you quoted could be used against Azubu players. Unless they were paid in 1 dollar bills with blood on them, then I doubt there was enough indication that it was so blatant that "you must have known that the property was stolen". I'm sure plenty of players have little idea exactly how money are generated by their teams except that they know sponsors somehow help, but surely Azubu could have had a silent sponsor.
This turn of events is sad, but not really surprising. It was always looking with high probability to be either 1) a rich person with no business sense, or 2) something very sketchy. I hope the players will manage, though I'm afraid the majority will retire with the current saturation of talent in Korea.
Well look at it this way. Everyone knows that Azubu is involved with money laundering. Unless the players, coaches, etc. are all dense, then they know as well. The police can go after them because the players now know they are getting paid and spending illegal funds.
That's not at all how it works, from a legal perspective.
Really? In what country? Because AFAIK, knowingly, or sometimes even unknowingly, handling or receiving etc the proceeds of a crime is a crime itself. If they know or suspect money they are receiving is from fraud, then they are potentially able to be charged with receiving proceeds of a crime, that's the law in the US, UK and Australia, for example, and probably many other countries as well.
On June 13 2013 03:22 SilverStar wrote: I wonder how much Riot knew of Azubus business when they got involved with them in Korea.
What leads you to believe that Riot in particular might know something all other parties did not. After all Riot is a big company, with many loose mouths.
A more interesting connection would be what did OGN know about Azubu before letting them sponsor their tournament. I myself wonder if OGN could be held liable for anything through a financial connection of the prize money that originated from Azubu.
They might have connection, tho it would mean devastation to e-sports scene in Korea. I don't wanna believe it either.
You guys know why all this new information regarding Kim and his paper company was brought up to the surface all of sudden?
There are two big things are going on in Korea right now.
1. Korean government is actively investigating CJ group for tax evasion through paper companies established abroad. They already have search warrant and is about to arrest big names. 2. On the other hand, those called investigative journalists independently found names and founders of paper companies founded in British Virgin Island for tax evasion purposes. One of released name was Kim Seok Ki.
First of all, CJ = OGN. They are the same company.
If korean government finds connection between Kim's paper companies and CJ's money, then it's BOOM.
and dont forget Kim was ex-husband of CJ's vice president...
Holy cow! Does this mean if CJ goes boom, then OGN goes boom too?! Which in turn means GOM becomes supreme esports overlord and all the sc2 and lol leagues are belong to them?!
On June 13 2013 03:22 SilverStar wrote: I wonder how much Riot knew of Azubus business when they got involved with them in Korea.
What leads you to believe that Riot in particular might know something all other parties did not. After all Riot is a big company, with many loose mouths.
A more interesting connection would be what did OGN know about Azubu before letting them sponsor their tournament. I myself wonder if OGN could be held liable for anything through a financial connection of the prize money that originated from Azubu.
They might have connection, tho it would mean devastation to e-sports scene in Korea. I don't wanna believe it either.
You guys know why all this new information regarding Kim and his paper company was brought up to the surface all of sudden?
There are two big things are going on in Korea right now.
1. Korean government is actively investigating CJ group for tax evasion through paper companies established abroad. They already have search warrant and is about to arrest big names. 2. On the other hand, those called investigative journalists independently found names and founders of paper companies founded in British Virgin Island for tax evasion purposes. One of released name was Kim Seok Ki.
First of all, CJ = OGN. They are the same company.
If korean government finds connection between Kim's paper companies and CJ's money, then it's BOOM.
and dont forget Kim was ex-husband of CJ's vice president...
Holy cow! Does this mean if CJ goes boom, then OGN goes boom too?! Which in turn means GOM becomes supreme esports overlord and all the sc2 and lol leagues are belong to them?!
If CJ went complete boom, from my understanding, OGN would be gone for sure. Though if CJ just takes a huge hit, they can still survive but I can still see OGN going down with them, leaving all your base to belong to GOM.
On June 13 2013 03:22 SilverStar wrote: I wonder how much Riot knew of Azubus business when they got involved with them in Korea.
What leads you to believe that Riot in particular might know something all other parties did not. After all Riot is a big company, with many loose mouths.
A more interesting connection would be what did OGN know about Azubu before letting them sponsor their tournament. I myself wonder if OGN could be held liable for anything through a financial connection of the prize money that originated from Azubu.
They might have connection, tho it would mean devastation to e-sports scene in Korea. I don't wanna believe it either.
You guys know why all this new information regarding Kim and his paper company was brought up to the surface all of sudden?
There are two big things are going on in Korea right now.
1. Korean government is actively investigating CJ group for tax evasion through paper companies established abroad. They already have search warrant and is about to arrest big names. 2. On the other hand, those called investigative journalists independently found names and founders of paper companies founded in British Virgin Island for tax evasion purposes. One of released name was Kim Seok Ki.
First of all, CJ = OGN. They are the same company.
If korean government finds connection between Kim's paper companies and CJ's money, then it's BOOM.
and dont forget Kim was ex-husband of CJ's vice president...
Whoaaaaaaaaaa this really is interesting. Considering Azubu's LoL teams they had at one point in time are now CJ's teams. o.o
In case you are interested, news on CJ/BVI paper company/tax news are already available in English. However, they are not directly related to azubu case yet.
CJ won't go boom don't worry, gov may investigate them for tax evasion but pretty sure that a lot of gov. ppl are on CJ's paylist and thousands of jobs depend on CJ.
On 6/10/2013, Silverio I. Park, Co-Founder of AZUBU, posted on his blog that he resigned from his position at AZUBU on April 2013, and he wants all the questions regarding AZUBU directed to AZUBU homepage.
On June 12 2013 06:55 Waxangel wrote: All azubu players drop from DH: Summer?????
Looks like Azubu is done for... Their players will be screwed as well.
Does anyone here know South Korean law? Would the Azubu players be charged for a criminal offense? Here in Canada, they can be. Taken from a Canadian lawyer's website:
If you are unaware that an item is stolen, purchasing or possessing the item is not illegal. Although you may have to return it to the true owner, you are not guilty of possessing stolen property. This does not mean that you can just ignore suspicious situations or state that you do not want to know where the item came from. The Crown can make a case that based on the circumstances, you must have known that the property was stolen. Proving that you had no knowledgeof the history of the property is a complicated matter and you should speak with a lawyer for advice on how to proceed with this defence.
Stolen property includes not only actual stolen items, but alsoindirect benefits gained from stolen items. For example, accepting money, knowing that it came from the sale of a stolen vehicle would qualify as possession of stolen property even though the money itself was note stolen.Another example of an indirect benefit of stolen property is having items that you know were purchased with a stolen or fraudulently obtained credit card.
I don't see how what you quoted could be used against Azubu players. Unless they were paid in 1 dollar bills with blood on them, then I doubt there was enough indication that it was so blatant that "you must have known that the property was stolen". I'm sure plenty of players have little idea exactly how money are generated by their teams except that they know sponsors somehow help, but surely Azubu could have had a silent sponsor.
This turn of events is sad, but not really surprising. It was always looking with high probability to be either 1) a rich person with no business sense, or 2) something very sketchy. I hope the players will manage, though I'm afraid the majority will retire with the current saturation of talent in Korea.
Well look at it this way. Everyone knows that Azubu is involved with money laundering. Unless the players, coaches, etc. are all dense, then they know as well. The police can go after them because the players now know they are getting paid and spending illegal funds.
That's not at all how it works, from a legal perspective.
Really? In what country? Because AFAIK, knowingly, or sometimes even unknowingly, handling or receiving etc the proceeds of a crime is a crime itself. If they know or suspect money they are receiving is from fraud, then they are potentially able to be charged with receiving proceeds of a crime, that's the law in the US, UK and Australia, for example, and probably many other countries as well.
That's really not how it works... it's easy to say something like that and you might even make a case for it in strictly semantic/literal terms. But judges oftentimes recognize the in-feasibility of being so arrest/punishment happy, especially if it's unknowingly.
Think about it this way, just how many random butlers/restaurants/waiters were tipped by Bernie Madoff and just how many establishments are visited on a daily basis by criminals?
On June 13 2013 04:34 anemoneya wrote: In case you are interested, news on CJ/BVI paper company/tax news are already available in English. However, they are not directly related to azubu case yet.
Since this got me really interested now, I've been trying to look into who Woong's(http://leaguepedia.com/wiki/Woong) father is, but I can't seem to find his name or occupation listing. The best I could find was this thread. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2679461 Which says he's the president of a company called Yezi Genenral Construction Corp. Was trying to see if he had any ties to CJ with Yezi Genenral Construction Corp apparently being the main sponsor of Azubu's gaming stuff. Unfortunately I can't find any trace of the company and don't even know if it exists.
Do you know his father's name or company he is with?
On June 13 2013 04:34 anemoneya wrote: In case you are interested, news on CJ/BVI paper company/tax news are already available in English. However, they are not directly related to azubu case yet.
Since this got me really interested now, I've been trying to look into who Woong's(http://leaguepedia.com/wiki/Woong) father is, but I can't seem to find his name or occupation listing. The best I could find was this thread. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2679461 Which says he's the president of a company called Yezi Genenral Construction Corp. Was trying to see if he had any ties to CJ with Yezi Genenral Construction Corp apparently being the main sponsor of Azubu's gaming stuff. Unfortunately I can't find any trace of the company and don't even know if it exists.
Do you know his father's name or company he is with?
It's construction company. Woong's father sponsored MiG when LoL scene in Korea was relatively small. They changed team name to Azubu after Azubu took over. I don't see any connection between Yeji and CJ besides sponsoring the same team.
On June 12 2013 06:55 Waxangel wrote: All azubu players drop from DH: Summer?????
Looks like Azubu is done for... Their players will be screwed as well.
Does anyone here know South Korean law? Would the Azubu players be charged for a criminal offense? Here in Canada, they can be. Taken from a Canadian lawyer's website:
If you are unaware that an item is stolen, purchasing or possessing the item is not illegal. Although you may have to return it to the true owner, you are not guilty of possessing stolen property. This does not mean that you can just ignore suspicious situations or state that you do not want to know where the item came from. The Crown can make a case that based on the circumstances, you must have known that the property was stolen. Proving that you had no knowledgeof the history of the property is a complicated matter and you should speak with a lawyer for advice on how to proceed with this defence.
Stolen property includes not only actual stolen items, but alsoindirect benefits gained from stolen items. For example, accepting money, knowing that it came from the sale of a stolen vehicle would qualify as possession of stolen property even though the money itself was note stolen.Another example of an indirect benefit of stolen property is having items that you know were purchased with a stolen or fraudulently obtained credit card.
I don't see how what you quoted could be used against Azubu players. Unless they were paid in 1 dollar bills with blood on them, then I doubt there was enough indication that it was so blatant that "you must have known that the property was stolen". I'm sure plenty of players have little idea exactly how money are generated by their teams except that they know sponsors somehow help, but surely Azubu could have had a silent sponsor.
This turn of events is sad, but not really surprising. It was always looking with high probability to be either 1) a rich person with no business sense, or 2) something very sketchy. I hope the players will manage, though I'm afraid the majority will retire with the current saturation of talent in Korea.
Well look at it this way. Everyone knows that Azubu is involved with money laundering. Unless the players, coaches, etc. are all dense, then they know as well. The police can go after them because the players now know they are getting paid and spending illegal funds.
That's not at all how it works, from a legal perspective.
Really? In what country? Because AFAIK, knowingly, or sometimes even unknowingly, handling or receiving etc the proceeds of a crime is a crime itself. If they know or suspect money they are receiving is from fraud, then they are potentially able to be charged with receiving proceeds of a crime, that's the law in the US, UK and Australia, for example, and probably many other countries as well.
That's really not how it works... it's easy to say something like that and you might even make a case for it in strictly semantic/literal terms. But judges oftentimes recognize the in-feasibility of being so arrest/punishment happy, especially if it's unknowingly.
Think about it this way, just how many random butlers/restaurants/waiters were tipped by Bernie Madoff and just how many establishments are visited on a daily basis by criminals?
Past money, no, current or future money, if they are still even getting paid, then yes. They wouldn't necessarily be considered guilty for past money received, but anything from when there was a high level of suspicion they could be found guilty. Also the original post said police can go after them because they "now know". Which is true, which is what I was agreeing with under the assumption they were still getting money, although really they probably aren't, so they won't be guilty if they haven't received anything.
If they do receive money now and then cash it out ASAP, then they would almost certainly be found guilty, for example. They are at a point where the players/manager can somewhat reasonably assume the money has a high probability of being dodgy, and therefore they could be found guilty.
On June 12 2013 06:55 Waxangel wrote: All azubu players drop from DH: Summer?????
Looks like Azubu is done for... Their players will be screwed as well.
Does anyone here know South Korean law? Would the Azubu players be charged for a criminal offense? Here in Canada, they can be. Taken from a Canadian lawyer's website:
If you are unaware that an item is stolen, purchasing or possessing the item is not illegal. Although you may have to return it to the true owner, you are not guilty of possessing stolen property. This does not mean that you can just ignore suspicious situations or state that you do not want to know where the item came from. The Crown can make a case that based on the circumstances, you must have known that the property was stolen. Proving that you had no knowledgeof the history of the property is a complicated matter and you should speak with a lawyer for advice on how to proceed with this defence.
Stolen property includes not only actual stolen items, but alsoindirect benefits gained from stolen items. For example, accepting money, knowing that it came from the sale of a stolen vehicle would qualify as possession of stolen property even though the money itself was note stolen.Another example of an indirect benefit of stolen property is having items that you know were purchased with a stolen or fraudulently obtained credit card.
I don't see how what you quoted could be used against Azubu players. Unless they were paid in 1 dollar bills with blood on them, then I doubt there was enough indication that it was so blatant that "you must have known that the property was stolen". I'm sure plenty of players have little idea exactly how money are generated by their teams except that they know sponsors somehow help, but surely Azubu could have had a silent sponsor.
This turn of events is sad, but not really surprising. It was always looking with high probability to be either 1) a rich person with no business sense, or 2) something very sketchy. I hope the players will manage, though I'm afraid the majority will retire with the current saturation of talent in Korea.
Well look at it this way. Everyone knows that Azubu is involved with money laundering. Unless the players, coaches, etc. are all dense, then they know as well. The police can go after them because the players now know they are getting paid and spending illegal funds.
That's not at all how it works, from a legal perspective.
Really? In what country? Because AFAIK, knowingly, or sometimes even unknowingly, handling or receiving etc the proceeds of a crime is a crime itself. If they know or suspect money they are receiving is from fraud, then they are potentially able to be charged with receiving proceeds of a crime, that's the law in the US, UK and Australia, for example, and probably many other countries as well.
That's really not how it works... it's easy to say something like that and you might even make a case for it in strictly semantic/literal terms. But judges oftentimes recognize the in-feasibility of being so arrest/punishment happy, especially if it's unknowingly.
Think about it this way, just how many random butlers/restaurants/waiters were tipped by Bernie Madoff and just how many establishments are visited on a daily basis by criminals?
Past money, no, current or future money, if they are still even getting paid, then yes. They wouldn't necessarily be considered guilty for past money received, but anything from when there was a high level of suspicion they could be found guilty. Also the original post said police can go after them because they "now know". Which is true, which is what I was agreeing with under the assumption they were still getting money, although really they probably aren't, so they won't be guilty if they haven't received anything.
If they do receive money now and then cash it out ASAP, then they would almost certainly be found guilty, for example. They are at a point where the players/manager can somewhat reasonably assume the money has a high probability of being dodgy, and therefore they could be found guilty.
So if you're a worker at some company that is involved in some scandal (say, money laundering), working there becomes illegal once the rumors start and are publicly discussed?
I'm fairly certain that's not how the world or the law works, anywhere.
On June 12 2013 06:55 Waxangel wrote: All azubu players drop from DH: Summer?????
Looks like Azubu is done for... Their players will be screwed as well.
Does anyone here know South Korean law? Would the Azubu players be charged for a criminal offense? Here in Canada, they can be. Taken from a Canadian lawyer's website:
If you are unaware that an item is stolen, purchasing or possessing the item is not illegal. Although you may have to return it to the true owner, you are not guilty of possessing stolen property. This does not mean that you can just ignore suspicious situations or state that you do not want to know where the item came from. The Crown can make a case that based on the circumstances, you must have known that the property was stolen. Proving that you had no knowledgeof the history of the property is a complicated matter and you should speak with a lawyer for advice on how to proceed with this defence.
Stolen property includes not only actual stolen items, but alsoindirect benefits gained from stolen items. For example, accepting money, knowing that it came from the sale of a stolen vehicle would qualify as possession of stolen property even though the money itself was note stolen.Another example of an indirect benefit of stolen property is having items that you know were purchased with a stolen or fraudulently obtained credit card.
I don't see how what you quoted could be used against Azubu players. Unless they were paid in 1 dollar bills with blood on them, then I doubt there was enough indication that it was so blatant that "you must have known that the property was stolen". I'm sure plenty of players have little idea exactly how money are generated by their teams except that they know sponsors somehow help, but surely Azubu could have had a silent sponsor.
This turn of events is sad, but not really surprising. It was always looking with high probability to be either 1) a rich person with no business sense, or 2) something very sketchy. I hope the players will manage, though I'm afraid the majority will retire with the current saturation of talent in Korea.
Well look at it this way. Everyone knows that Azubu is involved with money laundering. Unless the players, coaches, etc. are all dense, then they know as well. The police can go after them because the players now know they are getting paid and spending illegal funds.
That's not at all how it works, from a legal perspective.
Really? In what country? Because AFAIK, knowingly, or sometimes even unknowingly, handling or receiving etc the proceeds of a crime is a crime itself. If they know or suspect money they are receiving is from fraud, then they are potentially able to be charged with receiving proceeds of a crime, that's the law in the US, UK and Australia, for example, and probably many other countries as well.
That's really not how it works... it's easy to say something like that and you might even make a case for it in strictly semantic/literal terms. But judges oftentimes recognize the in-feasibility of being so arrest/punishment happy, especially if it's unknowingly.
Think about it this way, just how many random butlers/restaurants/waiters were tipped by Bernie Madoff and just how many establishments are visited on a daily basis by criminals?
Past money, no, current or future money, if they are still even getting paid, then yes. They wouldn't necessarily be considered guilty for past money received, but anything from when there was a high level of suspicion they could be found guilty. Also the original post said police can go after them because they "now know". Which is true, which is what I was agreeing with under the assumption they were still getting money, although really they probably aren't, so they won't be guilty if they haven't received anything.
If they do receive money now and then cash it out ASAP, then they would almost certainly be found guilty, for example. They are at a point where the players/manager can somewhat reasonably assume the money has a high probability of being dodgy, and therefore they could be found guilty.
So if you're a worker at some company that is involved in some scandal (say, money laundering), working there becomes illegal once the rumors start and are publicly discussed?
I'm fairly certain that's not how the world or the law works, anywhere.
If there is reasonable suspicion that you are knowledgeable and profiting off of money obtained through illegal means, you can be detained for it, at least in the US.
If you're some non-important low-level office worker in a company where the CEO is implicated in money laundering, you're probably safe.
On June 12 2013 06:55 Waxangel wrote: All azubu players drop from DH: Summer?????
Looks like Azubu is done for... Their players will be screwed as well.
Does anyone here know South Korean law? Would the Azubu players be charged for a criminal offense? Here in Canada, they can be. Taken from a Canadian lawyer's website:
If you are unaware that an item is stolen, purchasing or possessing the item is not illegal. Although you may have to return it to the true owner, you are not guilty of possessing stolen property. This does not mean that you can just ignore suspicious situations or state that you do not want to know where the item came from. The Crown can make a case that based on the circumstances, you must have known that the property was stolen. Proving that you had no knowledgeof the history of the property is a complicated matter and you should speak with a lawyer for advice on how to proceed with this defence.
Stolen property includes not only actual stolen items, but alsoindirect benefits gained from stolen items. For example, accepting money, knowing that it came from the sale of a stolen vehicle would qualify as possession of stolen property even though the money itself was note stolen.Another example of an indirect benefit of stolen property is having items that you know were purchased with a stolen or fraudulently obtained credit card.
I don't see how what you quoted could be used against Azubu players. Unless they were paid in 1 dollar bills with blood on them, then I doubt there was enough indication that it was so blatant that "you must have known that the property was stolen". I'm sure plenty of players have little idea exactly how money are generated by their teams except that they know sponsors somehow help, but surely Azubu could have had a silent sponsor.
This turn of events is sad, but not really surprising. It was always looking with high probability to be either 1) a rich person with no business sense, or 2) something very sketchy. I hope the players will manage, though I'm afraid the majority will retire with the current saturation of talent in Korea.
Well look at it this way. Everyone knows that Azubu is involved with money laundering. Unless the players, coaches, etc. are all dense, then they know as well. The police can go after them because the players now know they are getting paid and spending illegal funds.
That's not at all how it works, from a legal perspective.
Really? In what country? Because AFAIK, knowingly, or sometimes even unknowingly, handling or receiving etc the proceeds of a crime is a crime itself. If they know or suspect money they are receiving is from fraud, then they are potentially able to be charged with receiving proceeds of a crime, that's the law in the US, UK and Australia, for example, and probably many other countries as well.
That's really not how it works... it's easy to say something like that and you might even make a case for it in strictly semantic/literal terms. But judges oftentimes recognize the in-feasibility of being so arrest/punishment happy, especially if it's unknowingly.
Think about it this way, just how many random butlers/restaurants/waiters were tipped by Bernie Madoff and just how many establishments are visited on a daily basis by criminals?
Past money, no, current or future money, if they are still even getting paid, then yes. They wouldn't necessarily be considered guilty for past money received, but anything from when there was a high level of suspicion they could be found guilty. Also the original post said police can go after them because they "now know". Which is true, which is what I was agreeing with under the assumption they were still getting money, although really they probably aren't, so they won't be guilty if they haven't received anything.
If they do receive money now and then cash it out ASAP, then they would almost certainly be found guilty, for example. They are at a point where the players/manager can somewhat reasonably assume the money has a high probability of being dodgy, and therefore they could be found guilty.
So if you're a worker at some company that is involved in some scandal (say, money laundering), working there becomes illegal once the rumors start and are publicly discussed?
I'm fairly certain that's not how the world or the law works, anywhere.
If there is reasonable suspicion that you are knowledgeable and profiting off of money obtained through illegal means, you can be detained for it, at least in the US.
If you're some non-important low-level office worker in a company where the CEO is implicated in money laundering, you're probably safe.
I don't think that's entirely true. What you are likely referring to is a law that is meant to use to prosecute pimps and fences, not paid employees of an organization that may be used for money laundering.
Besides, if this was true, many criminal defense lawyers would be in trouble (not to mention the lawyers for Enron, Madoff, etc.).
What I do not understand is that a guy like Windhost bankrupted several corporations and he himself had about 60 millions in debt where he could pay back 1% or so and they still allow him to conduct any business ? Thats like driving a car in a group of bikers several times and not getting your driver license taken away lol...
On June 12 2013 06:55 Waxangel wrote: All azubu players drop from DH: Summer?????
Looks like Azubu is done for... Their players will be screwed as well.
Does anyone here know South Korean law? Would the Azubu players be charged for a criminal offense? Here in Canada, they can be. Taken from a Canadian lawyer's website:
If you are unaware that an item is stolen, purchasing or possessing the item is not illegal. Although you may have to return it to the true owner, you are not guilty of possessing stolen property. This does not mean that you can just ignore suspicious situations or state that you do not want to know where the item came from. The Crown can make a case that based on the circumstances, you must have known that the property was stolen. Proving that you had no knowledgeof the history of the property is a complicated matter and you should speak with a lawyer for advice on how to proceed with this defence.
Stolen property includes not only actual stolen items, but alsoindirect benefits gained from stolen items. For example, accepting money, knowing that it came from the sale of a stolen vehicle would qualify as possession of stolen property even though the money itself was note stolen.Another example of an indirect benefit of stolen property is having items that you know were purchased with a stolen or fraudulently obtained credit card.
I don't see how what you quoted could be used against Azubu players. Unless they were paid in 1 dollar bills with blood on them, then I doubt there was enough indication that it was so blatant that "you must have known that the property was stolen". I'm sure plenty of players have little idea exactly how money are generated by their teams except that they know sponsors somehow help, but surely Azubu could have had a silent sponsor.
This turn of events is sad, but not really surprising. It was always looking with high probability to be either 1) a rich person with no business sense, or 2) something very sketchy. I hope the players will manage, though I'm afraid the majority will retire with the current saturation of talent in Korea.
Well look at it this way. Everyone knows that Azubu is involved with money laundering. Unless the players, coaches, etc. are all dense, then they know as well. The police can go after them because the players now know they are getting paid and spending illegal funds.
That's not at all how it works, from a legal perspective.
Really? In what country? Because AFAIK, knowingly, or sometimes even unknowingly, handling or receiving etc the proceeds of a crime is a crime itself. If they know or suspect money they are receiving is from fraud, then they are potentially able to be charged with receiving proceeds of a crime, that's the law in the US, UK and Australia, for example, and probably many other countries as well.
That's really not how it works... it's easy to say something like that and you might even make a case for it in strictly semantic/literal terms. But judges oftentimes recognize the in-feasibility of being so arrest/punishment happy, especially if it's unknowingly.
Think about it this way, just how many random butlers/restaurants/waiters were tipped by Bernie Madoff and just how many establishments are visited on a daily basis by criminals?
Past money, no, current or future money, if they are still even getting paid, then yes. They wouldn't necessarily be considered guilty for past money received, but anything from when there was a high level of suspicion they could be found guilty. Also the original post said police can go after them because they "now know". Which is true, which is what I was agreeing with under the assumption they were still getting money, although really they probably aren't, so they won't be guilty if they haven't received anything.
If they do receive money now and then cash it out ASAP, then they would almost certainly be found guilty, for example. They are at a point where the players/manager can somewhat reasonably assume the money has a high probability of being dodgy, and therefore they could be found guilty.
So if you're a worker at some company that is involved in some scandal (say, money laundering), working there becomes illegal once the rumors start and are publicly discussed?
I'm fairly certain that's not how the world or the law works, anywhere.
If there is reasonable suspicion that you are knowledgeable and profiting off of money obtained through illegal means, you can be detained for it, at least in the US.
If you're some non-important low-level office worker in a company where the CEO is implicated in money laundering, you're probably safe.
The "important guys" are safe too. In the US anything can happen, the big guys there don't have to abide by laws. Just look at what the NSA is doing, bin laden assassination without trial, guantanamo bay, Iran arms sale scandal, CIA cocaine trafficking, mortgage fraud, and the list goes on. In the US, laws are not means to an end, they are only applied selectively.
On June 12 2013 06:55 Waxangel wrote: All azubu players drop from DH: Summer?????
Looks like Azubu is done for... Their players will be screwed as well.
Does anyone here know South Korean law? Would the Azubu players be charged for a criminal offense? Here in Canada, they can be. Taken from a Canadian lawyer's website:
If you are unaware that an item is stolen, purchasing or possessing the item is not illegal. Although you may have to return it to the true owner, you are not guilty of possessing stolen property. This does not mean that you can just ignore suspicious situations or state that you do not want to know where the item came from. The Crown can make a case that based on the circumstances, you must have known that the property was stolen. Proving that you had no knowledgeof the history of the property is a complicated matter and you should speak with a lawyer for advice on how to proceed with this defence.
Stolen property includes not only actual stolen items, but alsoindirect benefits gained from stolen items. For example, accepting money, knowing that it came from the sale of a stolen vehicle would qualify as possession of stolen property even though the money itself was note stolen.Another example of an indirect benefit of stolen property is having items that you know were purchased with a stolen or fraudulently obtained credit card.
I don't see how what you quoted could be used against Azubu players. Unless they were paid in 1 dollar bills with blood on them, then I doubt there was enough indication that it was so blatant that "you must have known that the property was stolen". I'm sure plenty of players have little idea exactly how money are generated by their teams except that they know sponsors somehow help, but surely Azubu could have had a silent sponsor.
This turn of events is sad, but not really surprising. It was always looking with high probability to be either 1) a rich person with no business sense, or 2) something very sketchy. I hope the players will manage, though I'm afraid the majority will retire with the current saturation of talent in Korea.
Well look at it this way. Everyone knows that Azubu is involved with money laundering. Unless the players, coaches, etc. are all dense, then they know as well. The police can go after them because the players now know they are getting paid and spending illegal funds.
That's not at all how it works, from a legal perspective.
Really? In what country? Because AFAIK, knowingly, or sometimes even unknowingly, handling or receiving etc the proceeds of a crime is a crime itself. If they know or suspect money they are receiving is from fraud, then they are potentially able to be charged with receiving proceeds of a crime, that's the law in the US, UK and Australia, for example, and probably many other countries as well.
That's really not how it works... it's easy to say something like that and you might even make a case for it in strictly semantic/literal terms. But judges oftentimes recognize the in-feasibility of being so arrest/punishment happy, especially if it's unknowingly.
Think about it this way, just how many random butlers/restaurants/waiters were tipped by Bernie Madoff and just how many establishments are visited on a daily basis by criminals?
Past money, no, current or future money, if they are still even getting paid, then yes. They wouldn't necessarily be considered guilty for past money received, but anything from when there was a high level of suspicion they could be found guilty. Also the original post said police can go after them because they "now know". Which is true, which is what I was agreeing with under the assumption they were still getting money, although really they probably aren't, so they won't be guilty if they haven't received anything.
If they do receive money now and then cash it out ASAP, then they would almost certainly be found guilty, for example. They are at a point where the players/manager can somewhat reasonably assume the money has a high probability of being dodgy, and therefore they could be found guilty.
I don't think you get what I'm saying. I'm not talking about whether or not they'll actually be found guilty.
I'm talking about whether or not they're guilty. No one wants to make a decision on these people who were not directly related to a crime necessarily because that's a lot of people to send to jail. Justice may be blind, but the thing idea of discretion which is to apply the laws selectively if a judge feels like something just is not feasible.
I guess you can say the police "can" go after them, but they won't because it just spreads too wide and too many good people will go down. That's where discretion comes in.
On June 12 2013 06:59 geokilla wrote: [quote] Looks like Azubu is done for... Their players will be screwed as well.
Does anyone here know South Korean law? Would the Azubu players be charged for a criminal offense? Here in Canada, they can be. Taken from a Canadian lawyer's website:
[quote]
I don't see how what you quoted could be used against Azubu players. Unless they were paid in 1 dollar bills with blood on them, then I doubt there was enough indication that it was so blatant that "you must have known that the property was stolen". I'm sure plenty of players have little idea exactly how money are generated by their teams except that they know sponsors somehow help, but surely Azubu could have had a silent sponsor.
This turn of events is sad, but not really surprising. It was always looking with high probability to be either 1) a rich person with no business sense, or 2) something very sketchy. I hope the players will manage, though I'm afraid the majority will retire with the current saturation of talent in Korea.
Well look at it this way. Everyone knows that Azubu is involved with money laundering. Unless the players, coaches, etc. are all dense, then they know as well. The police can go after them because the players now know they are getting paid and spending illegal funds.
That's not at all how it works, from a legal perspective.
Really? In what country? Because AFAIK, knowingly, or sometimes even unknowingly, handling or receiving etc the proceeds of a crime is a crime itself. If they know or suspect money they are receiving is from fraud, then they are potentially able to be charged with receiving proceeds of a crime, that's the law in the US, UK and Australia, for example, and probably many other countries as well.
That's really not how it works... it's easy to say something like that and you might even make a case for it in strictly semantic/literal terms. But judges oftentimes recognize the in-feasibility of being so arrest/punishment happy, especially if it's unknowingly.
Think about it this way, just how many random butlers/restaurants/waiters were tipped by Bernie Madoff and just how many establishments are visited on a daily basis by criminals?
Past money, no, current or future money, if they are still even getting paid, then yes. They wouldn't necessarily be considered guilty for past money received, but anything from when there was a high level of suspicion they could be found guilty. Also the original post said police can go after them because they "now know". Which is true, which is what I was agreeing with under the assumption they were still getting money, although really they probably aren't, so they won't be guilty if they haven't received anything.
If they do receive money now and then cash it out ASAP, then they would almost certainly be found guilty, for example. They are at a point where the players/manager can somewhat reasonably assume the money has a high probability of being dodgy, and therefore they could be found guilty.
So if you're a worker at some company that is involved in some scandal (say, money laundering), working there becomes illegal once the rumors start and are publicly discussed?
I'm fairly certain that's not how the world or the law works, anywhere.
If there is reasonable suspicion that you are knowledgeable and profiting off of money obtained through illegal means, you can be detained for it, at least in the US.
If you're some non-important low-level office worker in a company where the CEO is implicated in money laundering, you're probably safe.
I don't think that's entirely true. What you are likely referring to is a law that is meant to use to prosecute pimps and fences, not paid employees of an organization that may be used for money laundering.
Besides, if this was true, many criminal defense lawyers would be in trouble (not to mention the lawyers for Enron, Madoff, etc.).
Lawyers are specifically exempted, otherwise the entire legal system would be a sham. But yes, in any case, it would be really hard to convict anyone working as a non-management employee, no matter how shady the company looked. No one needs to worry about the Azubu players/eSports team managers being found guilty.
On April 04 2013 05:39 Otolia wrote: Azubu is a shady organisation and this whole ordeal reeks of money laundering from miles away. If I was still in Berlin I would visit the Handelzentrum just to see if there is indeed anything space lent by Azubu.
Proof of this?
On June 06 2013 16:50 anemoneya wrote: YUP it's confirmed by media.
Korean news announced Kim owns paper company Multi-Luck Investment Limited in British Virgin Island for tax avoiding purpose. The one and only shareholder of SYSK Limited is Multi-Luck Investment Limited. As OP posted, SYSK Limited owns trademark of AZUBU.
Who is this Kim? He commited financial crime in Korea years ago and fled to Hongkong/Europe with billions of money.
You can start to guess where all this funding for e-sport is coming from when azubu doesn't seem to have clear source of income?
UPDATE: more articles in Korean that explains the relationship between AZUBU and Kim Seok Ki
Not to mention they are already published online by reputable newspaper companies, but with less focus on e-sports scene itself because of recent accusations on Kim and other well known names including son of former president of Korea, Chun-doo-hwan.
Interesting...very interesting. I received this pm an hour ago.
Yeah, if you look at Clauf.com (subsidiarie of Azubu Europe I guess) it's the same way of marketing. They pretend to be a huge firm working with big names, but in fact they can't live up to these expectations. If you ask me, their whole bussiness concept seems to be scamming some investors...
I never heard of clauf.com, so I immediately began search starting with their website.
1. They claim they are global company based in berlin, with asian division in korea. sounds familiar? yeah Azubu claimed to be global company based in berlin, but their main office turned out to be in Korea
2. The homepage seemed to be made with purpose of attracting investors, with no other functionality.
3. I looked up their german address. It's some nice looking building in the heart of berlin. Couln't look up the company name on google maps. (it's possible it's not updated)
4. They claim they are supported by influential gaming communities in Korea such as playxp.com and fpskorea. I was shocked here because I use playxp.com often. So I started to find connection between them.
First of all, googling "azubu clauf" or reading this TL thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=401488¤tpage=5), we can find out clauf is subsidiary or something of Azubu Europe.
I looked up korean address of Clauf. No one has ever heard of Clauf in Korea. There was company that was doing the same business in Korea at the same address. http://www.idoflux.com/index
idoflux.com It's pretty old and small company since 2003 or something. Idoflux's CEO Donghyun Kim is listed as COO of Clauf and there is new CEO in Clauf. Idoflux = Clauf. Maybe Azubu bought out Idoflux and put new CEO in charge. Anyway, it's like azubu's real address in korea being gamebook korea's address. Same company, just different named used.
I went to fpskorea.com and saw at the bottom it's owned by idoflux. Years ago, I knew playxp.com was run by an individual. To check the ownership of playxp.com, I asked around in their forum http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=4567381 . Someone who knew history of playxp.com well told me that playxp.com was taken over by idoflux year ago. However, they didn't know that idoflux is actually clauf.com which is subsidiary of Azubu. No where in playxp site it mentions to which company it belongs to.
Anyway, if you are not korean and don't go to playxp.com, it's not big news. Personally, I feel like shit...to find out the community I love was secretly taken over by azubu.
Damn, I think azubu is the real esports illuminati! They're everywhere hidden behind 100s of paper companies! I think azubu has their hooks in every esports organization. TL, EG, MLG, ESL, etc....you name it and they'll be a trail of paper companies leading back to azubu. I think we should start protecting azubu guys now and stop asking questions. If azubu goes down, global esports goes down with them!!!!!
On June 14 2013 02:52 Canucklehead wrote: Damn, I think azubu is the real esports illuminati! They're everywhere hidden behind 100s of paper companies! I think azubu has their hooks in every esports organization. TL, EG, MLG, ESL, etc....you name it and they'll be a trail of paper companies leading back to azubu. I think we should start protecting azubu guys now and stop asking questions. If azubu goes down, global esports goes down with them!!!!!
On June 14 2013 02:52 Canucklehead wrote: Damn, I think azubu is the real esports illuminati! They're everywhere hidden behind 100s of paper companies! I think azubu has their hooks in every esports organization. TL, EG, MLG, ESL, etc....you name it and they'll be a trail of paper companies leading back to azubu. I think we should start protecting azubu guys now and stop asking questions. If azubu goes down, global esports goes down with them!!!!!
Is this sarcasm? I am not sure anymore.
Hey, we do what we have to to keep eSports alive. What about that do you find hard to take seriously?
-flashes secret Azubu ring casually and glares at you-
This was apparently scrapped because the Koreans, i.e. the staff, especially the bosses couldn't understand the articles. As I said in a previous post, there were some Americans there initially to help out with the English, direct the content, but they either quit or were fired.
Many moons ago, the mysterious Dr. Kim had a brilliant idea: one part sweet games media, one helping of a cool gamer community, smothered in tangy style sauce and wrapped ever-so-gently in a tortilla of social networking awesomeness.
Hm, it took us pretty long to figure out who was standing behind azubu :D
journalist from inven.co.kr already accused clauf.com+playxp for secretly being related to Azubu. The COO of clauf.com made official comment that they have no connection to Azubu, which turned out to be complete lie. They said they will send official statement to inven.co.kr but it didn't happen yet.
The entry for the Handelsregister, which is listed at the bottom of the clauf.com page is real, BUT if you try to google "Clauf GmbH" there is NOTHING in return. So they are obviously a HUGE company which has done an awful lot ...
That office address is prime real estate and would fetch the highest rent. That building has been built after the unification and is quite modern and it doesnt look as shabby as the last one near Friedrichstraße. Sadly the housing management page doesnt list the companies (Why not?) who have rented a space there.
If they were real about Clauf they would have made an effort with that internet page. It is ugly and one looooooooonnnnggg scroll down page design filled with a whole lot of bubblkes of emptiness, which anyone knows is highly impractical. The location maps would usually be on a subpage titled "contact" ... and so on. So it is quite clear that it is another load of nothing.
anyway gomsnowbird works there now, for what thats' worth
Man, the best GOM employee got sucked in to the AZUBU black hole? That's sad, was just wondering what happened to him
Yeah last I heard he said he was moving back to germany and would announce his plans soon. That was months ago and never heard what he was up to since. Looks like he got sucked into azubu web too. Poor guy.
MAYBE Azubu and Clauf just happen to have the same investors and that's it? Clauf's website indicates a new office address, so they might just about to be starting their business. This would explain their shitty homepage and why there's not much on the web yet.
On June 20 2013 17:11 He4dsh0t wrote: MAYBE Azubu and Clauf just happen to have the same investors and that's it? Clauf's website indicates a new office address, so they might just about to be starting their business. This would explain their shitty homepage and why there's not much on the web yet.
I really like naive thinking like this ... NOT.
If you are SERIOUS about a business you DONT release a shitty website, you test it first and then release it. You should also make an effort of getting some "meat" behind your claims and actually do something ... which you can put as achievements on that website. This is not the case and the whole thing reads like "we intend to do this and that" ... so basically it is in a really really early "alpha state" for the company OR it is a scam for the most gullible fools in the "I have too much money and want to invest in something cool" business.
I bet it would the same story as for the azubu offices if I went there to check up, but since I am a lazy git and dont really get into the center of the city that often I wont do it.
Oh and in case you didnt notice ... the managers seem to be exactly the same too between the companies.
A "GmbH" is a company type, where the owner of the company only has to cover up to 50.000 € (maybe even less than that) in losses. You need 25.000 € of "founding capital" and the company is liable with that money ... but nothing more and the owners personal funds are untouchable iirc. Sooo they could scam some investors, transfer the money to azubu and then claim those as losses and pay that limited amount of money back to get a clean bill ... and then shut "Clauf GmbH" down.
A GmbH is usually a good type of company for small to medium businesses, because you - the owner - arent liable with your personal property, but in this case it seems a bit shady since the money involved could be a lot bigger.
still waiting for idoflux's CEO(clauf's COO) to make 2nd official statement regarding the relationship between azubu,clauf, and playxp.
not only clauf's company name is registered as "Clauf GmbH, Berlin, c/o AZUBU Europe AG"
they shared the same address at Friedrichstraße 95, 10117 Berlin.
you can still look up this address at azubu's official facebook page, their google plus account, and recruitment website. They wiped out this shady address from new azubu.tv website and only list US address. (no more german HQ? LOL)
On June 20 2013 21:20 Nuclease wrote: How did this thread get necro'd?
The topic isnt that old and still relevant AND we should stick to looking into it unless we want something like "azubu 2.0" (based in Berlin) to happen. I am currently wondering if our "Gewerbeaufsichtsamt" (Trade supervisory office) should be notified to potentially shady dealings, because having a scamming scandal is not going to help with eSports popularity.
With the amount of stupid buildings around here, which are funded just so people have some losses to reduce their taxes I could envision this becoming "successful" if they make the right connections to the "right" investors. I would hate that, because taxes are necessary to pay for the community functions like schools, police, the government and evading that is in no way cool or good for the community ...
This quote fits the situation quite well: "when bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke, Thoughts on present discontents, 1770.
When people asked him questions about azubu in his blog, he said he resigned from his position at Azubu so he can't answer questions about azubu.
Now he owns what used be Azubu interactive and simply change it to gapielon? to do what? it's hella shady. What's going on in Berlin with all these shady companies?
i didn´t read the full thread at all but in near time i have holidays and may look at some adresses that are pointed out here and post pictures and videos. The whole thing looks weird and as a german i can say that we have a lot of shady companies here and don´t need more at all.
i didn´t read the full thread at all but in near time i have holidays and may look at some adresses that are pointed out here and post pictures and videos. The whole thing looks weird and as a german i can say that we have a lot of shady companies here and don´t need more at all.
I have been trying to find out why all these shady organizations are being established in Germany, and I think it has something to do with this
cash incentive system. I don't know well about this stuff, but it seems like german government pays back 50% of amount of money that is expected to be spent by the company in Germany to build better economy and help with employment.
I don't know, but they might be abusing the system.
i didn´t read the full thread at all but in near time i have holidays and may look at some adresses that are pointed out here and post pictures and videos. The whole thing looks weird and as a german i can say that we have a lot of shady companies here and don´t need more at all.
I have been trying to find out why all these shady organizations are being established in Germany, and I think it has something to do with this
cash incentive system. I don't know well about this stuff, but it seems like german government pays back 50% of amount of money that is expected to be spent by the company in Germany to build better economy and help with employment.
I don't know, but they might be abusing the system.
Do these companies produce anything though? As far as I understand it the grants are for helping to set up "production", but Azubu and any related companies dont even produce any eSports content.
The program sounds familiar and it or some similar one is probably one of the reasons why I dont drink Coca Cola anymore. They were given 7 million € to set up a factory in one of the eastern parts of germany after the unification with the understanding that they have to stay there at least 7 years. Obviously they shut down the factory after slightly more than that time, sold the machinery to "the east" (Poland, Ukraine, ... where labour is cheaper) and moved on.
Sure the understanding only said 7 years, but the point of the whole grant was to create a business that would be self-sustaining. Apparently german labour is too expensive to fill sugared water into bottles ... or the point is that the whole free european market and blown up EU of 25 countries with super low wage countries doesnt really work.
here, it says most service industries qualify for the cash incentive in addition to production industries. I assume Azubu is more of service type.
I sent email to gtai (in English) that some companies might be abusing the system, like month ago, but haven't heard back. Now I see that GTAI.de is not a government organization, but a consulting firm. Can someone who speak German tip the appropriate department in germany about this? I was always wondering why they would make shady companies that don't even have legit office in germany.
List of companies that I suspect are: Azubu, Azubu Interactive(Gapielon), Clauf
here, it says most service industries qualify for the cash incentive in addition to production industries. I assume Azubu is more of service type.
I sent email to gtai (in English) that some companies might be abusing the system, like month ago, but haven't heard back. Now I see that GTAI.de is not a government organization, but a consulting firm. Can someone who speak German tip the appropriate department in germany about this? I was always wondering why they would make shady companies that don't even have legit office in germany.
List of companies that I suspect are: Azubu, Azubu Interactive(Gapielon), Clauf
I might give this a shot, but the trouble with extensive bureaucracies is finding the right department for this. I had also thought about pointing financially focused newspapers in that direction as well to enable them to warn any potential investors.
Explaining eSport and the scale of the problem to bureaucrats or journalists who write articles for men in suits might take a bit of doing though and wont be that convincing over the telephone ... so a good and clear "simpleton explanation with examples" is necessary, but these take time to write.
On June 28 2013 11:49 rshawer wrote: If things do go awry, ex: CJ takes a large hit, Azubu team disbands etc, then would this be considered worse than the savior situation?
It all kinda depends on where Azubu got the money to pay for everything they did. But even if it was all dirty money aside from that nothing really happened that would be considered as big as the match fixing scandal. This sounds like a much more isolated event that could have been a much bigger event had Azubu not been investigated earlier. The matchfixing affected a lot of the teams in proleague and undermined 10 years of effort put forth by the teams and Kespa to produce a professional Starcraft league.
At the moment Azubu is only confirmed to be owned by some shady business men that have ties to money laundering/tax evasion/financial fraud. There is also the possibility that all of Azubu's investments in E-sports were made with dirty money. This might have turned into something bigger had Azubu gained more influence before being found out but currently (not all information is known yet) this incident pales in comparison to what Savior and co. did.
What if the money was coming from people that do wish to see esports grow, but don't want to be known and not necessarily because their money is dirty. So they used Azubu as a front to inject some life into the scene, but again the money isn't necessarily dirty in any way. D:
Just an unlikely scenario I've been thinking of, could be completely wrong.
On June 29 2013 02:08 AnomalySC2 wrote: What if the money was coming from people that do wish to see esports grow, but don't want to be known and not necessarily because their money is dirty. So they used Azubu as a front to inject some life into the scene, but again the money isn't necessarily dirty in any way. D:
Just an unlikely scenario I've been thinking of, could be completely wrong.
The easter bunny and the tooth fairy might exist too ... [I hope I dont need to put this in spoilers.]
Azubu is gone and everything that is happening in Berlin STINKS of shady illegal dealings and not of "oh we have secret backers who dont want to be known".
On June 29 2013 02:31 Rabiator wrote: The easter bunny and the tooth fairy might exist too ... [I hope I dont need to put this in spoilers.]
omg...my childhood...everything I know is WRONG. I suppose now you're going to tell me something ridiculous like Santa Claus is just my parents or something equally nonsensical.
GAPIELON GmbH, formerly known as AZUBU Interactive GmbH (renamed on April 15, 2013), now surprisingly lists its field of operation as "Großhandel mit Nahrungs- und Genussmitteln a. n. g." (wholesale food and tobacco unspecified):
I called phone number listed in gapielon's official website. The first thing I heard was "Hello, Park" (with korean accent)
I assume's it's Silverio Park himself. So when I call company that does wholesale food and tobacco business, I get greeted by the CEO? haha. I laughed and hung up. I'm pretty sure it's 1-man company established for some shady reason.
The address also shows some residential building in google maps.
Hey Guys. So I've looked up the Website mentioned in the Main-Post "http://www.azubux.com". And one thing i have to say. For an "easy and safe" online payment method, their "Terms and Conditions" fits on a single A4 Paper.
So to have a comparison i went to Paypal and looked at their "Legal Agreements" of Paypal Services. Where i first have to chose from around 20 links, depending on if it's for customer, merchand or busniess, or product-specific agreements. Where every link gives you so much to read that I don't know if I could read all, even if i had a whole day freetime to do so.
Has anyone tested, if Azubux even works and gives you the product that they promised?
There you can see the anual reports of azubu (bundesanzeiger.de type in azubu europe ag)
it's everything in german tho
Not really informative, because there is only one annual report (for 2011 no less) and three announcements for "AZUBU Europe AG". The annual report for 2011 - actually only 8.12.2011 to 31.12.2011 - lists sums of the magnitude of 50.000€ ... which isnt enough to do anything other than pay a bit of rent and salaries.
An intersting bit is the part of "SYSK Limited, Road Town, British Virgin Islands is a majority shareholder" ... and Virgin Islands is a tax haven and known for housing many "cover up companies".
I don't really know where to begin with this, and I'm not sure how dead this thread is. But I was linked this post by a user on Reddit who found me there from my many posts regarding Azubu.
I'm a former intern at Azubu in Berlin (I can provide proof through my contract and ID showing that I am who I am). The company owes me several months of backpay, which I've been trying desperately to get. I'm a foreigner who has little to know knowledge of the German legal system, so my struggle to get paid has been pretty much useless at this point.
I don't know if there's any desire to know anything about the company, but if you want I'd be willing to answer questions (and verify that I actually did work there). I worked one-on-one with Silverio Park, in the office in Berlin. I'd be more than happy to answer questions and give any information if anyone would like any.
In return I'd love it if maybe a German could help me out with some translation work (I wrote a letter to the Agentur fuer Arbeit, but I need it translated into German, as my Amtdeutsch is far from good).
Anyways, this company is shady as fuck and should be avoided like the plague. I'll also be penning a letter to the US Department of Labor because I know for a fact that many of the employees they have in the US office are working without proper visas.
On August 07 2013 18:50 Coraliine wrote: I don't really know where to begin with this, and I'm not sure how dead this thread is. But I was linked this post by a user on Reddit who found me there from my many posts regarding Azubu.
I'm a former intern at Azubu in Berlin (I can provide proof through my contract and ID showing that I am who I am). The company owes me several months of backpay, which I've been trying desperately to get. I'm a foreigner who has little to know knowledge of the German legal system, so my struggle to get paid has been pretty much useless at this point.
I don't know if there's any desire to know anything about the company, but if you want I'd be willing to answer questions (and verify that I actually did work there). I worked one-on-one with Silverio Park, in the office in Berlin. I'd be more than happy to answer questions and give any information if anyone would like any.
In return I'd love it if maybe a German could help me out with some translation work (I wrote a letter to the Agentur fuer Arbeit, but I need it translated into German, as my Amtdeutsch is far from good).
Anyways, this company is shady as fuck and should be avoided like the plague. I'll also be penning a letter to the US Department of Labor because I know for a fact that many of the employees they have in the US office are working without proper visas.
I'm the one who linked this topic. This person is indeed someone who worked at the EU office.
Sidenote: After the Korean branch closed, info came out that the German branch would continue running their SC-2 team. There's quite some info that can show that the European branch is one big shady business. It's a big mess over there.
I can confirm that when I worked there (November - March), there were at most 4 people in the office (myself and Mr. Park included). By the time I left there was no one there except another Korean company that did eSports stuff with the same "investors". I did meet one of the investors, who was a legitimate guy (not tied to any criminal activity that I know of). I'm not in Berlin anymore, so I can't stop by the office to see if there are people there anymore.
I was originally hired to work as an eSports expert, but they ended up having me do work in web development (I never led them to believe I had knowledge in this field), and community outreach (which was virtually just making lists of teams and players in Europe).
The last I heard about the eSports (from my friend who still works in the company) was that they were thinking of entirely cutting their professionals. They were going to make the switch from sponsoring to just their AzubuTV website.
Hi Coraliine, I'm sorry to hear that they didn't pay you for your work. Can I ask few questions about your experience at Azubu?
1. They had two official addresses. I think they registered their company in first address and later moved to new address. When you were there, which one were you at? The first address that they used for registration was some 4-6 story building. The new address they put on their website was big building(+10 floors with guard on first floor). Which one did you work at?
2. Another korean esports company you mentioned...it could be Clauf. Does that name ring any bell? Pictures of 3 individuals who work at clauf are here: http://clauf.com/ They made official announcement that they have no ties to Azubu, but it appears to be complete lie.
3. In your honest opinion, were they really trying to accomplish something with the company ? or were they trying to rip off investors/abuse government incentives/stock fraud?
4. If you didn't know already, Park said he resigned his position in Azubu Europe. Now he runs the company called Gapielon in Germany. Gapielon is new name for Azubu interactive. Do you know anything about this company? (btw, you can reach Park by calling the number on this company website. It directly connected to his personal phone last time I called)
----------------
If you need help in German, you should try sending pm to "Rabiator". He's german and he helped me with some german stuff few weeks ago. In case you need help in Korean, I can help with it. When you send the letter to US department of Labor, also send it to USCIS (US immigration), too. Unauthorized employment may be handled faster through that department.
If you want this (your experience at Azubu, not getting paid, etc) to go public in Korean media, I can help you. I believe your story. If you can prove your employment with ID and contract, I will translate your testimony and forward it to journalists who write articles in game webzines to put even more pressure on Azubu.
I can confirm Azubu has paid for everything they promised to CSL. From October 2012 through February 2013, Azubu paid exactly what they agreed to pay, and are currently in the process of paying the prize pool of $180,000 to teams/players in CSL (not complete yet, but I can confirm about 70% of the prize money has been paid so far).
I'm not posting this in support of Azubu per se, and I don't work for Azubu, but I do want to say that despite what negative things people say, they did do everything they promised in relation to CSL.
That's a relief. I hope Azubu fixes all the loose ends such as unpaid salary and prizes, and move on to whatever they are upto...(it seems like they are focusing on stream)
On August 09 2013 02:14 Xeris wrote: I can confirm Azubu has paid for everything they promised to CSL. From October 2012 through February 2013, Azubu paid exactly what they agreed to pay, and are currently in the process of paying the prize pool of $180,000 to teams/players in CSL (not complete yet, but I can confirm about 70% of the prize money has been paid so far).
I'm not posting this in support of Azubu per se, and I don't work for Azubu, but I do want to say that despite what negative things people say, they did do everything they promised in relation to CSL.
On August 09 2013 01:11 anemoneya wrote: Hi Coraliine, I'm sorry to hear that they didn't pay you for your work. Can I ask few questions about your experience at Azubu?
1. They had two official addresses. I think they registered their company in first address and later moved to new address. When you were there, which one were you at? The first address that they used for registration was some 4-6 story building. The new address they put on their website was big building(+10 floors with guard on first floor). Which one did you work at?
2. Another korean esports company you mentioned...it could be Clauf. Does that name ring any bell? Pictures of 3 individuals who work at clauf are here: http://clauf.com/ They made official announcement that they have no ties to Azubu, but it appears to be complete lie.
3. In your honest opinion, were they really trying to accomplish something with the company ? or were they trying to rip off investors/abuse government incentives/stock fraud?
4. If you didn't know already, Park said he resigned his position in Azubu Europe. Now he runs the company called Gapielon in Germany. Gapielon is new name for Azubu interactive. Do you know anything about this company? (btw, you can reach Park by calling the number on this company website. It directly connected to his personal phone last time I called)
----------------
If you want this (your experience at Azubu, not getting paid, etc) to go public in Korean media, I can help you. I believe your story. If you can prove your employment with ID and contract, I will translate your testimony and forward it to journalists who write articles in game webzines to put even more pressure on Azubu.
Sure thing!
1. I worked at the address at Friedrichstrasse, however I had been to the Seydelstrasse address frequently. It was primarily used as the apartment for Silverio Park and any of the other workers who came over from South Korea.
2. It is most certainly Clauf. I recognize the CEO. He had an office across from the kitchen. They also have more people working there, a few guys and a girl. They were all really young, but I remember them because a few of the guys actually spoke English and I'd sometimes chat with them on the elevator. They also share an investor (I know they share at least one, he would sometimes come into the office). There's another company that was across the hall that had the same investor. I can look up the company name if you'd like me to (they were also in video games iirc).
3. I don't know. I think at first, yes. But towards the end I think that they were just trying to rip people off. The one person I actually got close to (who still works for them but was transferred out of that office) and I would talk about it sometimes. They came really close to quitting, and we honestly had lost all hope in the company by December/January (only a few months after I started). I think originally they wanted to accomplish things and become a HUGE name in the industry, but I think now they're just looking to get a quick buck and rip people off. There's absolutely no direction and no one really knows what they're doing. Most people just kinda did whatever during work hours, and there was such a lack of communication it was really almost funny to watch.
4. He didn't resign. He told me he was fired. Here's the story I got: We were working on Azubu Interactive GmbH. Working on the website, making contacts with game developers in Asia, and a lot of other stuff. Apparently when Azubu Europe AG heard this they freaked out and their lawyers sent cease and desist letters and demanded we change the name. Silverio didn't listen, I suppose. I was called into the office after a few weeks off and was told that he had been fired. He told me that he couldn't pay me, and asked me to come into the Seydelstrasse office to continue working. I basically told him pay me or fuck off. He didn't pay me. I've spoken to him several times, but after a very heated e-mail exchange regarding my missing pay and me getting a lawyer we haven't spoken. That was about a month ago.
I'd definitely be interested in getting my story out there. I'm honestly less upset about the money at this point and more furious that they are taking advantage of people. I just can't abide by that. I never wanted to be a shit stirrer, nor do I want to possibly ruin my reputation in the industry (I want to work as a narrative designer or game journalist at some point). But I just can't let this shit go on anymore.
I'll PM you my e-mail address and send you the documents and a write up of my experiences/what I saw there.
Honestly the stuff they did to me isn't nearly as bad as what they did to the South Korean workers. The one worker I befriended was refused vacation time for months, and basically forced to go to Berlin after being lied to about only going to Spain for a few weeks. They arrived with nothing and weren't even allowed to go back home to get any of their belongings.
Thanks. I sent you email. I'll let others know asap when the article is published.
About the questions I mentioned in the email:
1. Did Clauf have anything to do with Azubu besides sharing the office and the investor? Can you look up name of the other company you mentioned if it doesn't take much time to look it up?
2. About the investor you mentioned, what was his ethnicity? Was he Korean? If you read OP's post and some other posts by me, you will know who Seok Ki Kim, Llars Windhorst, and some other co-workers of llars, do you recognize any of them?
3. I don't really understand the story you got from Park. What's the relationship between Azubu Europe and Azubu Interactive. Which one were you employed at? Where did Park belong to? As far as I know, Park was co-founder of Azubu. Did investors fire him? Besides Azubu Korea and Azubu NA, I still don't understand why they founded Azubu Europe and Azubu interactive in the same city. If you were employed at Azubu Interactive, where did employees of Azubu Europe work at? Was one of these two just paper company that had no office?
I thought two Azubu companies were basically the same company, so I don't really understand the part where Park said Azubu Europe sent cease and desist letters to Azubu Interactive. I understand you were an intern and may not know all the politic stuff that happened in the company, but please tell us anything that you know of.
On August 10 2013 03:21 anemoneya wrote: Thanks. I sent you email. I'll let others know asap when the article is published.
About the questions I mentioned in the email:
1. Did Clauf have anything to do with Azubu besides sharing the office and the investor? Can you look up name of the other company you mentioned if it doesn't take much time to look it up?
2. About the investor you mentioned, what was his ethnicity? Was he Korean? If you read OP's post and some other posts by me, you will know who Seok Ki Kim, Llars Windhorst, and some other co-workers of llars, do you recognize any of them?
3. I don't really understand the story you got from Park. What's the relationship between Azubu Europe and Azubu Interactive. Which one were you employed at? Where did Park belong to? As far as I know, Park was co-founder of Azubu. Did investors fire him? Besides Azubu Korea and Azubu NA, I still don't understand why they founded Azubu Europe and Azubu interactive in the same city. If you were employed at Azubu Interactive, where did employees of Azubu Europe work at? Was one of these two just paper company that had no office?
I thought two Azubu companies were basically the same company, so I don't really understand the part where Park said Azubu Europe sent cease and desist letters to Azubu Interactive. I understand you were an intern and may not know all the politic stuff that happened in the company, but please tell us anything that you know of.
I can also answer these questions. As I mentioned earlier I have done my homework on this case. I'm also in contact with "Coraliine".
If you don't mind we take our time answering some questions though. These things are quite delicate.
Pictures of 3 individuals who work at clauf are here: http://clauf.com/
That third guy, CMO, is from OGN.
The Azubu Korea (former?) director, Lee Hyunggeun, and him are buddies.
Dr. Kim Seokki is the investor, everyone knew him at the Korea branch, he was akin to God. I don't think a single Korean there knew of Lars Windhorst, or Silverio Park. Some Koreans were sent to Berlin in 2011-12, they might know Park.
I really do think that they wanted to be good, but the director, Lee, is just a complete moron and extremely xenophobic. The company had no direction, would work all hours of the day to produce nothing. Just a ridiculous company.
On August 09 2013 20:51 Coraliine wrote: There's another company that was across the hall that had the same investor. I can look up the company name if you'd like me to (they were also in video games iirc).
RNTS Media Germany GmbH. It was also mentioned from time to time some pages ago here.
On August 10 2013 03:21 anemoneya wrote: Thanks. I sent you email. I'll let others know asap when the article is published.
About the questions I mentioned in the email:
1. Did Clauf have anything to do with Azubu besides sharing the office and the investor? Can you look up name of the other company you mentioned if it doesn't take much time to look it up?
2. About the investor you mentioned, what was his ethnicity? Was he Korean? If you read OP's post and some other posts by me, you will know who Seok Ki Kim, Llars Windhorst, and some other co-workers of llars, do you recognize any of them?
3. I don't really understand the story you got from Park. What's the relationship between Azubu Europe and Azubu Interactive. Which one were you employed at? Where did Park belong to? As far as I know, Park was co-founder of Azubu. Did investors fire him? Besides Azubu Korea and Azubu NA, I still don't understand why they founded Azubu Europe and Azubu interactive in the same city. If you were employed at Azubu Interactive, where did employees of Azubu Europe work at? Was one of these two just paper company that had no office?
I thought two Azubu companies were basically the same company, so I don't really understand the part where Park said Azubu Europe sent cease and desist letters to Azubu Interactive. I understand you were an intern and may not know all the politic stuff that happened in the company, but please tell us anything that you know of.
1. The company is indeed RNTS. 2. The investor is the guy pictured on this page. Link
At least their address seems to be "legit". There is a bell button labeled with the name of the company at that building although they didnt bother to make a sign for the usual "business card company listing" at the entrance. I didnt bother checking their offices though when I went past, so it may be yet another "smoke and mirrors" thing like the Azubu office at Friedrichstraße.
At least their address seems to be "legit". There is a bell button labeled with the name of the company at that building although they didnt bother to make a sign for the usual "business card company listing" at the entrance. I didnt bother checking their offices though when I went past, so it may be yet another "smoke and mirrors" thing like the Azubu office at Friedrichstraße.
So your job is to generate positive PR on community websites by sarcastically posting that the company is as shady as mentioned in this thread, implying that it now has a focus and is doing things instead of just acting as a front for tax evasion. Gotcha. Azubu fighting!~
On August 22 2013 15:58 gaymon wrote: Wait what; what is going on with Torte ? o_O
Torts works for clauf as of 2-3 weeks ago according to kennigt's tweet, so even though we all know clauf is a joke, by most accounts azubu pays their employees still. Therefore, torts is using sarcasm about clauf cause joke or not, he's currently collecting that esports $, so he doesn't care what the community thinks about clauf!
I care! I just feel that there isn't much I/we can do until going public. So trying to change minds when the most important questions needs to be answered is rather pointless.
so instead I'm going to have fun :B I'm always a community member first and foremost!
On August 22 2013 17:47 Torte de Lini wrote: I care! I just feel that there isn't much I/we can do until going public. So trying to change minds when the most important questions needs to be answered is rather pointless.
so instead I'm going to have fun :B I'm always a community member first and foremost!
So is Clauf really what we think it is or is it worse or better?
hopefully clauf will actually get something done, unlike how azubu spent money without earning any. What will be Clauf's main source of income besides investor's money?
On August 23 2013 01:43 anemoneya wrote: hopefully clauf will actually get something done, unlike how azubu spent money without earning any. What will be Clauf's main source of income besides investor's money?
I think this is pretty stupid way of handling this from Clauf. Unfortunately, this is considered a standard in any business. Instead of approaching whatever community you are working with openly and honestly, every corporation has absurd PR rules of not telling almost anything.
Do you really thing that the image of Clauf is improved by letting everyone speculate about their level of shadiness, instead of just plainly saying, what they are about to do? Yes, yes, they need to wait for ther "big" announcement, because that is the way they must do it, because everyone does that ...
Torte can babble about how great everything is to infinity, but for me, the company is nevertheless a bunch of corporate idiots, same as everyone else in the "business", just because of the way they (not-)communicate.
On August 27 2013 17:52 opisska wrote: I think this is pretty stupid way of handling this from Clauf. Unfortunately, this is considered a standard in any business. Instead of approaching whatever community you are working with openly and honestly, every corporation has absurd PR rules of not telling almost anything.
Do you really thing that the image of Clauf is improved by letting everyone speculate about their level of shadiness, instead of just plainly saying, what they are about to do? Yes, yes, they need to wait for ther "big" announcement, because that is the way they must do it, because everyone does that ...
Torte can babble about how great everything is to infinity, but for me, the company is nevertheless a bunch of corporate idiots, same as everyone else in the "business", just because of the way they (not-)communicate.
You are assuming that they actually care ... but if they are just scamming or moneylaundering they actually dont need to. The majority shareholder on the US Virgin Islands - a known haven for tax evading companies and with VERY VERY tightly lipped bankers - should make this abundantly clear.
What I hate about Clauf and the very reason I became suspicious of Clauf is because Kim donghyuk(not sure about his name) who is CEO of IDOFLUX and COO(?) of clauf publicly lied to people about their relationship with Azubu.
When I revealed on Playxp.com(which is owned by IDOFLUX) that Clauf, IDOFLUX, and Azubu are all somehow related, he made official statement that Clauf is not related to Azubu in any way. It was apparently a lie, because at least we knew that they were sharing a space.
Why did he have to lie about it? I really want to ask him. (he never ever answered to follow up questions after making that one official statement)
If Clauf and Azubu were legit, or even if Clauf was legit and Azubu was not, why did he have to lie about it?
On August 22 2013 20:55 Torte de Lini wrote: It's very good.
Azubu was very good too.
I'd say what they wanted to do was good (as far as we saw), but nothing went well for them.
Although you guys don't know what we're doing, I can assure you we have some of the most experienced people that I've ever known (and you can read my blog to see who I am talking about) and we're bringing in more to make sure our plans go right. For example, tomorrow I have to pick up Morgan Stone (:
I've been reassured countless times that Clauf is not Azubu and Azubu is not Clauf. I can only ask so many times before it turns into a detainee interrogation xD
On August 22 2013 20:55 Torte de Lini wrote: It's very good.
Azubu was very good too.
I'd say what they wanted to do was good (as far as we saw), but nothing went well for them.
Although you guys don't know what we're doing, I can assure you we have some of the most experienced people that I've ever known (and you can read my blog to see who I am talking about) and we're bringing in more to make sure our plans go right. For example, tomorrow I have to pick up Morgan Stone (:
On August 22 2013 20:55 Torte de Lini wrote: It's very good.
Azubu was very good too.
I'd say what they wanted to do was good (as far as we saw), but nothing went well for them.
Although you guys don't know what we're doing, I can assure you we have some of the most experienced people that I've ever known (and you can read my blog to see who I am talking about) and we're bringing in more to make sure our plans go right. For example, tomorrow I have to pick up Morgan Stone (:
(One of the most important people who really made broadcasting at NASL amazing with all his experience and talent)
Got the ok from PR to mention this :D
Dude, from one industry insider to the next, you should really learn to keep your mouth shut.
Let your work speak for itself, and stop worrying about the peanut gallery. If Morgan saw you make this post he'd probably fire you.
Shots fired! Torts will be on a plane back to canada tomorrow! Looks like that esports fame claimed another victim! Bitter went from a humble guy making 12 weeks with the pros vids to an egomaniac who now refers to the community as the peanut gallery. That esports fame is sometimes too much for people. They have to go all hollywood on you. There really should be an NWO of esports.
On August 22 2013 20:55 Torte de Lini wrote: It's very good.
Azubu was very good too.
I'd say what they wanted to do was good (as far as we saw), but nothing went well for them.
Although you guys don't know what we're doing, I can assure you we have some of the most experienced people that I've ever known (and you can read my blog to see who I am talking about) and we're bringing in more to make sure our plans go right. For example, tomorrow I have to pick up Morgan Stone (:
On August 22 2013 20:55 Torte de Lini wrote: It's very good.
Azubu was very good too.
I'd say what they wanted to do was good (as far as we saw), but nothing went well for them.
Although you guys don't know what we're doing, I can assure you we have some of the most experienced people that I've ever known (and you can read my blog to see who I am talking about) and we're bringing in more to make sure our plans go right. For example, tomorrow I have to pick up Morgan Stone (:
(One of the most important people who really made broadcasting at NASL amazing with all his experience and talent)
Got the ok from PR to mention this :D
Dude, from one industry insider to the next, you should really learn to keep your mouth shut.
Let your work speak for itself, and stop worrying about the peanut gallery. If Morgan saw you make this post he'd probably fire you.
There is like a PM button on TL for this stuff. Or email. Or like anything that isn't a public forum.
Or we are all being trolled. I can't tell any more. It is the weekend yet?
Bitter knows about PM, email, skype, etc. That post was just Bitter pulling rank cause he has a higher standing than torts in the esports world so thinks he has the right to shame him in public and tell him what to do and make the feigned threat that Morgan should probably fire torts.
I think he just cares about Morgan's reputation and privacy and reacted. It's not a problem guys (: Mr Bitter has me on Skype if he wants to directly talk as well.
On August 31 2013 05:14 Torte de Lini wrote: I think he just cares about Morgan's reputation and privacy and reacted. It's not a problem guys (:
It's ok. You're trained well to take it as an esports newbie right now and not to fight back. Was the morgan thing a secret? I've seen his hiring mentioned on twitter already by people. You stated you had permission to mention that hiring too.
I don't think your post had anything wrong in it. You're just stating your case in defense of clauf/azubu. I didn't care for your earlier sarcastic posts, but that post was pretty benign and nothing for bitter to get so worked up about.
Yes, I got permission, but I didn't take into account of his personal privacy, so that's a mistake on my part (and my eagerness to what I said above). So it's a gray-zone if we account for both sides and it wasn't my place to say it (even if I had permission).
Anyways, I'll stay mute about the subject since it's out there and what's done is done.
On August 31 2013 05:14 Torte de Lini wrote: I think he just cares about Morgan's reputation and privacy and reacted. It's not a problem guys (:
It's ok. You're trained well to take it as an esports newbie right now and not to fight back. Was the morgan thing a secret? Frodan mentioned him in his blog as well. You stated you had permission to mention that hiring too.
I don't think your post had anything wrong in it. You're just stating your case in defense of clauf/azubu. I didn't care for your earlier sarcastic posts, but that post was pretty benign and nothing for bitter to get so worked up about.
Well I mentioned him in passing as the guy that got us off our butts to innovate which has become the spirit that drives NASL broadcast. We've mentioned that story multiple times in the past on podcasts/interviews/talkshows.
Bitter referring more to privileged information in general.
On August 31 2013 04:34 FrodaN wrote: I've been reassured countless times that Clauf is not Azubu and Azubu is not Clauf. I can only ask so many times before it turns into a detainee interrogation xD
yah, I know that money that's too good to be true is often reassuring
On August 31 2013 05:21 IPA wrote: I'm a proud member of the peanut gallery, for what it's worth.
I just noticed that part too. Bitter should avoid using that phrase in the future. I get what he was saying, but I don't like being called it. As I said before, PM, Skype and Email exist for a reason and phrases like that are it.
On August 31 2013 05:14 Torte de Lini wrote: I think he just cares about Morgan's reputation and privacy and reacted. It's not a problem guys (:
It's ok. You're trained well to take it as an esports newbie right now and not to fight back. Was the morgan thing a secret? Frodan mentioned him in his blog as well. You stated you had permission to mention that hiring too.
I don't think your post had anything wrong in it. You're just stating your case in defense of clauf/azubu. I didn't care for your earlier sarcastic posts, but that post was pretty benign and nothing for bitter to get so worked up about.
Well I mentioned him in passing as the guy that got us off our butts to innovate which has become the spirit that drives NASL broadcast. We've mentioned that story multiple times in the past on podcasts/interviews/talkshows.
Bitter referring more to privileged information in general.
Yeah I reread your blog and you didn't mention morgan as a hiring. I saw it on twitter somewhere. Just don't remember whose now.
On August 31 2013 05:21 IPA wrote: I'm a proud member of the peanut gallery, for what it's worth.
I think bitter has been watching too much cod lately.
On August 31 2013 05:14 Torte de Lini wrote: I think he just cares about Morgan's reputation and privacy and reacted. It's not a problem guys (:
It's ok. You're trained well to take it as an esports newbie right now and not to fight back. Was the morgan thing a secret? Frodan mentioned him in his blog as well. You stated you had permission to mention that hiring too.
I don't think your post had anything wrong in it. You're just stating your case in defense of clauf/azubu. I didn't care for your earlier sarcastic posts, but that post was pretty benign and nothing for bitter to get so worked up about.
Well I mentioned him in passing as the guy that got us off our butts to innovate which has become the spirit that drives NASL broadcast. We've mentioned that story multiple times in the past on podcasts/interviews/talkshows.
Bitter referring more to privileged information in general.
Yeah I reread your blog and you didn't mention morgan as a hiring. I saw it on twitter somewhere. Just don't remember whose now.
In other news, I get to see how good Dan is at StarCraft!
On August 22 2013 20:55 Torte de Lini wrote: It's very good.
Azubu was very good too.
I'd say what they wanted to do was good (as far as we saw), but nothing went well for them.
Although you guys don't know what we're doing, I can assure you we have some of the most experienced people that I've ever known (and you can read my blog to see who I am talking about) and we're bringing in more to make sure our plans go right. For example, tomorrow I have to pick up Morgan Stone (:
(One of the most important people who really made broadcasting at NASL amazing with all his experience and talent)
Got the ok from PR to mention this :D
Dude, from one industry insider to the next, you should really learn to keep your mouth shut.
Let your work speak for itself, and stop worrying about the peanut gallery. If Morgan saw you make this post he'd probably fire you.
Shots fired! Torts will be on a plane back to canada tomorrow! Looks like that esports fame claimed another victim! Bitter went from a humble guy making 12 weeks with the pros vids to an egomaniac who now refers to the community as the peanut gallery. That esports fame is sometimes too much for people. They have to go all hollywood on you. There really should be an NWO of esports.
On August 31 2013 04:34 FrodaN wrote: I've been reassured countless times that Clauf is not Azubu and Azubu is not Clauf. I can only ask so many times before it turns into a detainee interrogation xD
Until about two months ago the company was officially registered as "Clauf GmbH, Berlin, c/o AZUBU Europe AG", then they dropped the "c/o AZUBU Europe AG" part and also took their widely ridiculed website offline.
I hope Clauf proves people wrong and does something legit, but pretending the community are just nay-sayers who are making shit up is kind of disingenuous. All we have seen so far looks exactly what Azubu 2.0 would look like and Clauf themselves created that impression, we didn't make it up.
let's look at the facts again. before venturing into esports azubu apparently tried to to make money with a virtual currency and a program called z-talk. both dont seem to exist anymore, so azubu seems to have put these on ice. now they're sponsoring an esports team and are building a streaming website..
1+1=?
seems like this is their new attempt to create a profitable business, no?
On September 12 2013 06:06 beg wrote: really didnt read much except for the OP, but...
let's look at the facts again. before venturing into esports azubu apparently tried to to make money with a virtual currency and a program called z-talk. both dont seem to exist anymore, so azubu seems to have put these on ice. now they're sponsoring an esports team and are building a streaming website..
1+1=?
seems like this is their new attempt to create a profitable business, no?
gl azubu
Now read the rest of the thread and feel embarrassed about this post.
On September 12 2013 06:06 beg wrote: really didnt read much except for the OP, but...
let's look at the facts again. before venturing into esports azubu apparently tried to to make money with a virtual currency and a program called z-talk. both dont seem to exist anymore, so azubu seems to have put these on ice. now they're sponsoring an esports team and are building a streaming website..
1+1=?
seems like this is their new attempt to create a profitable business, no?
gl azubu
Now read the rest of the thread and feel embarrassed about this post.
why should i feel embarrassed about my speculation?
i read a few pages now, but i really cant be bothered to read 28 pages on such an uninteresting topic. instead of shitting on me, give me some clues next time.
right now i'm thinking you're probably just not intelligent enough to realize what i said was probably right. sorry son.
On September 12 2013 06:06 beg wrote: really didnt read much except for the OP, but...
let's look at the facts again. before venturing into esports azubu apparently tried to to make money with a virtual currency and a program called z-talk. both dont seem to exist anymore, so azubu seems to have put these on ice. now they're sponsoring an esports team and are building a streaming website..
1+1=?
seems like this is their new attempt to create a profitable business, no?
On September 12 2013 06:06 beg wrote: really didnt read much except for the OP, but...
let's look at the facts again. before venturing into esports azubu apparently tried to to make money with a virtual currency and a program called z-talk. both dont seem to exist anymore, so azubu seems to have put these on ice. now they're sponsoring an esports team and are building a streaming website..
1+1=?
seems like this is their new attempt to create a profitable business, no?
gl azubu
Hi, this is no different than anything they have done from the start. Actually it's worse than their start because at the beginning they sponsored several teams as well as a league and had no useless service like Azubu.tv which is literally a copy paste of twitch currently. Now they give no money, except to maybe their SC2 team which seems to still exist.
nothing really new, but it's written quite well and the intro is good. TLDR: when a bunch of convicted or suspected scammers/wrongdoers bunch up together to finance something, you've to close your eyes and throw away your ethic to work with them.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0KCKnGK.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OzBeu7q.png)
viOLet. Just like their first footsteps on the LoL scene, they didn’t came to SC2 to shuffle but to dance. Following the personal sponsorship they formed a Azubu team. Following viOLet came 
IntoTheRain as coach. This took place in october, with november being a slow month. They soon picked up their pace again with starting gun 
NaDa as teammanager they gathered the pieces for a full team fast. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/juiclne.png)
Top![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GkodBJl.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.gtai.de/GTAI/Content/EN/Invest/_SharedDocs/Bilder/Markets-germany-magazine/online-plus/silveriopark,width=332,height=582.jpg)
Mr. Silverio Park![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Li5W9CL.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xEnVKh5.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JD2xDIT.png)
