EPTHotS Nydus worm— What happened? - Page 6
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Scio
Germany522 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On April 05 2013 08:16 Scio wrote: I thought that adding a salvage mechanic to the nydus worms would increase its usefullness. You would build the nydus network like you do now and can then start spawning nydus worms like you do now. The change would be that you can "salvage" a spawned nydus worm just like you can salvage a bunker (the worm wouldnt explode, he would burrow back into the ground) and you will get a percentage of the ressources back (in the 60-100% range). This would put the nydus in a similar place that drops are for terran. A clever planned assault with a nydus could strike where the enemy doesnt expect it, do damage and retreat without losing many units (or none if you get the salvage off). Or they could just make Nydus Worms cost minerals only... 200m instead of 100m/100g would be a LOT more affordable. | ||
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Scio
Germany522 Posts
On April 05 2013 08:19 Thieving Magpie wrote: Or they could just make Nydus Worms cost minerals only... 200m instead of 100m/100g would be a LOT more affordable. While it would be a lot more affordable that way, you are still almost guaranteed to lose those minerals when you use the nydus to attack which makes smaller attacks not worthwhile. I mean imagine a protoss giving up a warpprism for every drop he does. Drops and nydus are ofc quite different but i still think it would be interesting and entertaining to see the nydus used for smaller attacks and harrassment. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On April 05 2013 08:25 Scio wrote: While it would be a lot more affordable that way, you are still almost guaranteed to lose those minerals when you use the nydus to attack which makes smaller attacks not worthwhile. I mean imagine a protoss giving up a warpprism for every drop he does. Drops and nydus are ofc quite different but i still think it would be interesting and entertaining to see the nydus used for smaller attacks and harrassment. Okay... then lets start from scratch then. Nydus is cool because its zerg popping out of the ground. The current incarnation allows an entire zerg army to spill into the battle. This forces Nydus to be balanced otherwise its too strong. The current balance feature is that it costs gas and takes time to setup This, I feel, is bad. New idea--what if Nydus worms were cheaper, but didn't transport so many people? Proposal--invisible APC Imagine an APC that is invisible. Now imagine a large worm that swallows zerg units and then burrow moves but his burrow movement ignores buildings. Why? MUAD'DIB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On April 03 2013 08:45 Xapti wrote: I'll go off-topic a bit here by stating a bit of a lamenting rant about why I'd rather have a different change —like nydus worm change— than the swarm host. Personally I wasn't ever much of a fan of the Swarm host. Zerg doesn't really need tank units when they already have zerglings and roaches, and another ranged attacker isn't that useful when they have hydralisks and roaches (and broodlords), and they don't really need a unit-spawning siege unit when they have the Brood Lord. Aside from that, locusts —while obviously useful— have issues where they don't work well as siege units when enemies have units that can regenerate and/or units that deal lots of damage. All protoss units have shields which regenerate, all terran units can be repaired or healed easily, and roaches can regenerate easily with burrow, making locusts very limited in their siege use if the opponent micros/repairs. Units that were already frequently used and very strong against zerg (Planetary fortress, bunker, siege tank, colossus) do excellent against the locusts and make such units even more standard. I dont agree with that at all. Swarm hosts are good. Sometimes I feel they are too good actually. 1) mathematically speaking a locust is only slightly worse than a roach or a hydra while a swarm host costs like 3 roaches and 2 hydras. That is you pay 50% more compared with roaches to have a new army every 25 seconds. And you pay the same price compared to hydras but lose antiair ability, 15 less health, and -3 range while you gain a new army every 25 seconds. On paper that is freaking awesome, and it is. 2) they are incredibly supply effective, twice more than roaches are. Basically I gave up on roaches at this stage besides the situations when I kind of feel constrained to some kind of allin. With roaches you need to trade armies or you are so stuck with a terrible army. With swarmhosts you can just mass and dont be pressured to do damage or to rush hive and feel extremely vulnerable in the process. Some advice: 1) use with hydras! For anti-air. For good ranged dps support. Snipe important units and buildings, retreat, repeat. 2) get a feeling of how much gas you need and use it carefully. 2 hydras upgrades, 1 swarm host upgrade, ranged and carapace upgrades and lots of units that have 2:1 minerals-gas ratio. That takes lots of gas. Mass lings at the start and some queens added into the army later (you are slow anyway) can solve this problem partially. 3) don't just make like 6-8 SHs and hope it makes it. They are not support units, you need many of them to make them count. Currently I aim for 16 SHs then just pump hydras while constantly being aggressive. 4) micro locusts. Put individual ones ahead of the group, focus fire or hold position when they get stuck trying to run around walls. 5) and get a plan B to switch away from SHs. 6) dont put your army on top of SHs when the enemy pushes you back. 7) attack at different locations as much as you can. | ||
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Rainling
United States456 Posts
On April 05 2013 08:25 Scio wrote: While it would be a lot more affordable that way, you are still almost guaranteed to lose those minerals when you use the nydus to attack which makes smaller attacks not worthwhile. I mean imagine a protoss giving up a warpprism for every drop he does. Drops and nydus are ofc quite different but i still think it would be interesting and entertaining to see the nydus used for smaller attacks and harrassment. That's a great idea. It does seem strange that nydus worms can't burrow, because they can tunnel through the ground just fine. Your idea makes sense, the zerg could recycle the worm's biomass and reclaim some of its cost. I love the idea of encouraging small-scale harassment, but I think it might make nydus worms too stronger in the early game, resulting in a nerf to other aspects of the worm which would make it less useful late game. It would be worth testing, though, who knows how it would work out in practice. | ||
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Niyanyo
Mexico71 Posts
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ETisME
12912 Posts
Right now the ability to transport every unit but at a high cost means nydus is a huge investment and more of a gamble. I was thinking to make it similar to the Zerg drop pots that are in the campaign,dropping just a few zerglings roaches and hydra | ||
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theprotagonist
Australia85 Posts
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
On April 04 2013 05:05 NightOfTheDead wrote: Just make nydus worm cloaked until he gets built, but with clear sign that he is there. Opponent would need detection to destroy it, but would be aware of the worm. You can't be serious... Some of the suggestions in this thread have me shaking my head at how delusional some people are | ||
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Taronar
Netherlands177 Posts
On April 03 2013 21:58 Toss.Pro- wrote: Maybe a much quicker unload time when built on creep rather than off of creep. This would boast it's defensive uses without making it imbalanced. You will have to remove the overlord spread creep ability then. Or else it really doesnt matter. | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
So make the nydus worm 'egged'. It will have higher health/armour during the spawning time. Then, Scream and hatch! "@#@#^#"!!! back to nornal nydus worm At least this will prevent workers to kill it. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
Considering the BW nydus was fundamental for late game Zerg and used every game. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The Nydus change from BW to SC2 was like changing a fundamental unit like the siege tank. It can siege anywhere on the map as long as you have vision except it makes a global alert sound, costs twice as much, takes 20 seconds to siege, and triple the time to fire. Sounds stupid and useless? Well when you have any perspective from playing broodwar, so did the SC2 Nydus and a lot of other butchered units. | ||
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Lysanias
Netherlands8351 Posts
On April 03 2013 08:57 albis wrote: faster load/unload time maybe so they can be used defensively to connect far off bases like bw. This is what zerg needs, to make nydus useful. Every time you use it defencively for drops for example the time units come out you lost everything. Offencively it's very gimmicy and situational. I supose if you buff the unload speed people will cry when 50 roaches instantly unload in there base  It's a difficult thing to buff, but atm nydus is just a gimmick. Unlike BW where it was a great mobility asset lategame. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 31 2013 14:31 sluggaslamoo wrote: I don't care if SC2 is not BW, but if SC2 just reverted it back to the BW nydus it would get used a lot. The nydus change in SC2 left a big gaping hole in the flexibility of lategame Zerg. Considering the BW nydus was fundamental for late game Zerg and used every game. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The Nydus change from BW to SC2 was like changing a fundamental unit like the siege tank. It can siege anywhere on the map as long as you have vision except it makes a global alert sound, costs twice as much, takes 20 seconds to siege, and triple the time to fire. Sounds stupid and useless? Well when you have any perspective from playing broodwar, so did the SC2 Nydus and a lot of other butchered units. defensive nydus networks are not needed anylonger. unlimited selection, good pathing, creepspread+speed bonus on creep are more than sufficient to transport zerg armies. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 31 2013 14:47 Big J wrote: defensive nydus networks are not needed anylonger. unlimited selection, good pathing, creepspread+speed bonus on creep are more than sufficient to transport zerg armies. I disagree with you. You can't make it to drops in time. What is better sending some units by nydus network to save a base or run your whole army from the opposite end of the map to the base to be way to late to save it? The answer is obvious. Late game terran drops are incredibly powerful and defensive nydus worms can be the only way to be able to save bases as bio drops just destroy hatcheries in a heart beat. I do wish nydus would cost 200 minerals instead of 100/100 but I doubt that will ever get changed :/. | ||
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ETisME
12912 Posts
On April 03 2013 09:54 GTPGlitch wrote: Free 1button creep spread and a teleportable building attacker that can't be stopped by anti-drop static D would be balanced by.... Are people serious? You can balance these by adjusting building time, cost, tech requirement, dimension of the creep, damage and hp of the worm Ideas is what matter, there are tools to make it more balanced. Oops didn't see the date of that post. But my statement still stands though | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 31 2013 14:52 blade55555 wrote: I disagree with you. You can't make it to drops in time. What is better sending some units by nydus network to save a base or run your whole army from the opposite end of the map to the base to be way to late to save it? The answer is obvious. Late game terran drops are incredibly powerful and defensive nydus worms can be the only way to be able to save bases as bio drops just destroy hatcheries in a heart beat. I do wish nydus would cost 200 minerals instead of 100/100 but I doubt that will ever get changed :/. oh well, the new terran drops are a bitch. yeah, with only minerals it may be ok, but I still doubt it would be too good as units come out 1by1 and you may just end up in a situation were you have to wait for enough units to unload before you can combat the drop. | ||
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Lysanias
Netherlands8351 Posts
On May 31 2013 15:02 Big J wrote: oh well, the new terran drops are a bitch. yeah, with only minerals it may be ok, but I still doubt it would be too good as units come out 1by1 and you may just end up in a situation were you have to wait for enough units to unload before you can combat the drop. That is the problem we have right now and why nydus is not used atm to defend long distance bases. The unloading time is the problem aswell if you greatly increase it, it's going to be very useful defencively. Unfortunatly it's also going to be very useful in the offence. That might give balance problems i would imagine. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On May 31 2013 15:02 Big J wrote: oh well, the new terran drops are a bitch. yeah, with only minerals it may be ok, but I still doubt it would be too good as units come out 1by1 and you may just end up in a situation were you have to wait for enough units to unload before you can combat the drop. If BW Zerg had Creep spread and unlimited unit selection instead of Nydus, it would destroy the staple ZvT and ZvP strategy (using cross-map expo for 3rd) and Zerg would be much worse late game. BW Nydus unloaded units incredibly fast compared to SC2. I don't see how the situation is any different, in fact it would be even more useful. BW Nydus allowed Zerg to take distance expansions balancing out late-game play on different maps and opening up more diverse strategies. Right now it seems like Zerg has to expand very tightly and gets stuck once past 3/4 bases especially on certain maps. BW Nydus allowed the 3rd to be taken on the other side of the map, achieving two things. First was to force Terran to have to travel further to attack expansions which was advantageous to the more mobile Zerg. Secondly, it was to have influence on the other side of the map and allow for faster/safer expansions in between. This change alone would completely change the landscape of Zerg expansion patterns presumeably for the better because right now every race expands in the exact same way and its boring. | ||
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