EPT- reduce gas cost for the ending;
- faster unload tim;
- Give it armor so it can't be so easily killed by workers.
The ideas presented in the video seemed OP for me.
HotS Nydus worm— What happened? - Page 5
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ObeseHydra
Brazil196 Posts
- reduce gas cost for the ending; - faster unload tim; - Give it armor so it can't be so easily killed by workers. The ideas presented in the video seemed OP for me. | ||
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algorithm0r
Canada486 Posts
Expect LotV to include many fixes we have been calling for all along and maybe one or two new adequate units. Coming Soon. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On April 04 2013 05:24 ObeseHydra wrote: Armor definitely. I've always wanted that for a long time. As it is now, if a player discovers a nydus worm at 50% completion, he can pull 9 workers from like 10 squares away and still have enough time to kill the worm with his workers.They could do one of the following: - reduce gas cost for the ending; - faster unload tim; - Give it armor so it can't be so easily killed by workers. Unload time could mainly just use improvement for smaller units like zerglings; a proportional-to transport size unload delay mechanism would be nice, but I don't think it's huge. On April 03 2013 22:16 avilo wrote: You obviously have no clue what i'm talking about. In command and conquer base defenses were instantly built and instantly popped up from the ground and could be placed anywhere you had a building radius. What ended up happening was static base defense became so strong you could literally attack people with your buildings and turrets which made the game incredibly stupid and "easy." This nydus worm is obviously not in the game for very similar reasons - it's impossible and not ever going to be worth balancing a unit you can essentially instantly have on the map that attacks on it's own. I didn't want this thread to be a discussion about the exact worm shown in the video appearing in multiplayer (but rather why it wasn't in the campaign, or what features you would like for a nydus worm in multiplayer), but while on that topic: it does not matter how powerful a certain unit is; it can always be balanced with other factors such as build time and cost. The worm wouldn't even necessarily be powerful; if they were to cost 150/150 and shoot like a marine there'd be very little utility to them. Obviously C&C was just designed bad by having a combination of two bad things: defensive structures being too effective and/or too much range, and being to easy to build. You talk about the OPness of building something out of the blue, but don't consider things like autoturrets or command centers floating around before morphing into PFs, which are not an issue despite being strong and useful. | ||
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Tayar
United States1439 Posts
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qinshihuang
Canada2 Posts
On April 03 2013 22:16 avilo wrote: You obviously haveusly have no clue what i'm talking about. In command and conquer base defenses were instantly built and instantly popped up from the ground and could be placed anywhere you had a building radius. What ended up happening was static base defense became so strong you could literally attack people with your buildings and turrets which made the game incredibly stupid and "easy." This nyduiously not in the game for very similar reasons - it's impossible and not ever going to be worth balancing a unit you can essentially instantly have on the map that attacks on it's own. Not going to happen. All of the things you listed on the other hand are no where near as bad in comparison and deal with creating actual units within the game, not static buildings. Since you obviously had no fuckingly had no fucking clue what i'm talking about but decided to inanely respond anyways...the best way iwould be if you could attack your opponent with supply depots that are cheap and able to compete with the military units within the game cost for cost. I've played all of the C&C games except C&C 3. Using base-defense buildings offensively is one of the stupidest strategies possible on ladder. First, like you said, you can only build buildings in range of your MCV (i.e. your starting "command center"). While it's true that you could move it, no one would ever do that because you'd need it to be stationary to construct your macro buildings. Furthermore, unlike SC 2, in C&C you can only build one building at a time. Therefore, even if you got your slow moving MCV close to the enemy base without getting it destroyed, you'd only be able to be one base-defense at a time. Furthermore, the base-defense buildings while strong, are not strong enough to win the game. Your opponent can just building their own base-defense building in their own base to counter your offensive base-defense buildings. By the way, in Red Alert 2, two Soviet Rhino tanks can tank on a Soviet Tesla tower. So I really don't see how defensive buildings are OP unless you're talking about the French cannon. However, that simply proves that stats are more important than the concept itself. You're idea is laughable at best. Have you played C&C on ladder? Furthermore, in WC3 Humans had instantly deployable scout towers and Elfs had walking towers. They weren't OP. OPness is just a matter of stats. | ||
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MavercK
Australia2181 Posts
just gonna mention i made that video these nydus didn't build instantly. likely they would have had a build time like the normal nydus. i simply made them build instantly for demonstration purposes. | ||
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urashimakt
United States1591 Posts
On April 04 2013 05:24 ObeseHydra wrote: - Give it armor so it can't be so easily killed by workers. I'd rather see its defensive usefulness increased. | ||
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Veldril
Thailand1817 Posts
On April 04 2013 02:49 fabiano wrote: They should just bring back the BW Nydus Canal. I sincerely see no other reason than "we want something different" for not having it in SC2. This led them to scrap off great ideas from BW and reinvent them in some butchered version which will have/had to be taken out later on... Don't reinvent the wheel. Current Nydus can act like BW's nydus... The only difference is that SC2's nydus cost gas quite heavily and can spawn outside of creep, which I would say it has more utlity than BW's one. The main problem is that it cost too much gas, which can be tweaked. In my opinion, decrease the gas cost but slightly increase build time for worm might be a better choice since it would not be so all-in if use and could be used more in defense (i.e. connect bases). At the same time, it would not make offensive use be too powerful, as the enemy would have more time to spot the worm coming up. One thing to consider though is that the pathing system in SC2 and BW are very different. I think one of the reasons pros don't really use Nydus is that Zerg ground units are already very fast. In three bases situation, it might be faster to move from main base to natural, or from natural to third faster by move command than using Nydus, since Nydus has to load/unload unit one at a time. | ||
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Zerg.Zilla
Hungary5029 Posts
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baba44713
83 Posts
So actually hearing that Nydus Worm is getting addressed in HotS was great news, and seeing gameplay videos was even more exciting. Few weeks later and the HotS stopped being the "Zerg" expansion and became a "let's try to balance this game around this new Widow Mine thingie before the deadline" expansion, with the Nydus yet again being forgotten almost completely. I'm still hoping that either some sort of change is still being planned (but everything is hush-hush until they feel safe to introduce it without disturbing the balance too strongly) or that an actually effective strategy using the current Nydus will surface (like combining it with Swarm Host which people keep mentioning which I think still needs time to see whether ot actually is great or just a gimmick - remember that brief time when "Nydus mining" was deemed the best thing since sliced bread). However I'm not being too optimistic here, and the best bet seems to be waiting another 3+ years and hoping that LotV would give more love to Zerg than HotS did. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On April 03 2013 09:18 nomyx wrote: Blizzard said that the ideas for nydus weren't good enough and zerg already had enough stuff at tier 2 (better hydras, better mutas, swarm hosts) whats funny is that this turned out to be false. hydras are still meh units, mutas are about the same. terran have widow mines to deal with them now. swarm hosts are also meh units. there was no reason to not put them in game and atleast TEST them in public and remove it if it didnt work like with warhounds. i dont get why it never went to beta at all. | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
Moreover, I don't know where you're getting this conception that Swarm Hosts aren't powerful, especially when you assume that Locusts aren't good against P because Protoss units have shields. Right now, the metagame of the 2 or 3 base SH timing is AMAZINGLY powerful. | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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baba44713
83 Posts
Because I just realized the Locusts cannot enter the Nydus. So the only thing I see the Nydus allowing me is.. getting those Swarm Hosts to some location more quickly. Which is the same as using it for any other unit, which in turn has by general acknowledgement across all leagues has been proven to be a rather unattractive option. So what am I missing here? | ||
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MavercK
Australia2181 Posts
On April 04 2013 17:06 Veldril wrote: Current Nydus can act like BW's nydus... The only difference is that SC2's nydus cost gas quite heavily and can spawn outside of creep, which I would say it has more utlity than BW's one. The main problem is that it cost too much gas, which can be tweaked. In my opinion, decrease the gas cost but slightly increase build time for worm might be a better choice since it would not be so all-in if use and could be used more in defense (i.e. connect bases). At the same time, it would not make offensive use be too powerful, as the enemy would have more time to spot the worm coming up. One thing to consider though is that the pathing system in SC2 and BW are very different. I think one of the reasons pros don't really use Nydus is that Zerg ground units are already very fast. In three bases situation, it might be faster to move from main base to natural, or from natural to third faster by move command than using Nydus, since Nydus has to load/unload unit one at a time. the best thing about BW nydus is actually instant transport. there was no delay between units like in SC2 | ||
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nomyx
United States2205 Posts
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Rainling
United States456 Posts
On April 05 2013 07:26 nomyx wrote: if they wanted to make nydus more viable, they should tweak the current nydus (have they ever done that?) instead of adding gimmicks to make it more viable. I agree, a buff like boosting load/unload time, especially for low-supply units, increasing armor, and/or reducing the worm's gas cost would work fine. If buffing the nydus worm leads to OP early-game cheeses, then move the nydus to hive tech or give it a hive tech upgrade that gives it utility. IMO nydus has the most potential as a fun, balanced tool for zerg in the later stages of the game, allowing players with extra money to quickly move their army to defend and attack at different points on the map. Right now the main barrier to this is the load/unload time, as moving a large army across the map often takes about the same time as loading the units into a nydus worm and unloading them at another one. | ||
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Callynn
Netherlands917 Posts
As it pops, it already emits a warning sound, which is more than enough tbh. This can also be countered by placing detection at smart spots, but prevents workers from killing the worm if there is no detection in range. Thoughts? | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On April 04 2013 17:06 Veldril wrote: Current Nydus can act like BW's nydus... The only difference is that SC2's nydus cost gas quite heavily and can spawn outside of creep, which I would say it has more utlity than BW's one. The main problem is that it cost too much gas, which can be tweaked. In my opinion, decrease the gas cost but slightly increase build time for worm might be a better choice since it would not be so all-in if use and could be used more in defense (i.e. connect bases). At the same time, it would not make offensive use be too powerful, as the enemy would have more time to spot the worm coming up. One thing to consider though is that the pathing system in SC2 and BW are very different. I think one of the reasons pros don't really use Nydus is that Zerg ground units are already very fast. In three bases situation, it might be faster to move from main base to natural, or from natural to third faster by move command than using Nydus, since Nydus has to load/unload unit one at a time. Well, it's also a problem that the Nydus is a two-step process. Click to get in nydus, hotkey+click to get out of correct Nydus. | ||
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