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On March 15 2013 19:31 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 19:11 Protoss-Bah wrote:
What about Demuslim, Machine, JYP, Suppy, iNcontrol, etc?
Is their performance top notch?
PuMa at least won a whole lot of tournaments for EG in the past.
And to mods, this isn't a flame/troll whatever. It's just that I don't think EG is that top team as they would like to claim they are. PuMa was their strongest player in my eyes, who won lots of tournaments. It's just that EG's decision is very inconsistent as they have worse performing players on their team. All those guys probably make less than Puma. Of the group, JYP and DeMuslim probably are the best paid. DeMuslim is legitimately a great, underrated player, and one of their few Terrans. When you think about it, it would be weird to have a house in NA without a Terran in it. There was a time after his acquisition, before contracting Puma, that Demuslim was the best player on the team. Since then, he's proven himself as quite a likeable and marketable personality. He was doing some really great casting during the EGMCL, and regularly draws big stream numbers. Suppy is pretty much semi-pro and living on his own as he goes to school. I'm sure his contract is smaller, more affordable, and he posts good results and draws big stream numbers that give EG good value. I think he lead his school's team to victory in a college tourney, recently. InControl has made a name for himself as popular community figure. He participates non-stop as a guest, commentator and host on all kinds of shows, even weird ones. Even though he's not a great tournament player anymore, he gives EG and their sponsors incredible exposure. Machine, like InControl, is an original member of the EG SC2 team since 2009. His contract probably sucks compared to everyone else on the team, but he's been a loyal, low-maintenance teammate since the beginning. As long as Machine stays at a GM level and doesn't start demanding piles of money, they'll probably never get rid of him. And like others have said, I don't think it was a matter of Puma not being a good enough player to be on EG, it was more an issue of him being overpaid given his results. I think Huk's deal occurred around the same time, and I wouldn't be surprised if that contract is over-valued, too. Pure speculation below: + Show Spoiler +I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Stephano's contract was in the $72,000 range. If Puma or Huk were making even more than that — and there were rumors of six-figure salaries circulating back then — than you can understand why EG cut Puma loose. EG realized they can get much better players for that kind of salary.
Everything you said makes absolutely sense, /thread maybe?
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"ever saw" 
Good move by EG; they're really committed to the ProLeague, and that's a great thing.
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On March 15 2013 14:18 VVeForever wrote:
There gonna release Huk, then get Naniwa
Well, that would be a diminishing return....
On a more serious note, best of luck to Puma, I hope he can find a new team, but this looks like a sense-able thing to do for both sides. If EG knows Puma is overpaid and they are trying to rebuild, then this seems like a reasonable thing to do, and I expect that after Puma realized that, he just wanted to leave to avoid further alienation in the future. I'm glad it worked out like this, and hope EG and Puma are too.
With the arrival of Coach park, and his post saying that they were going to rebuild, I wonder what they will do with this payroll.....
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On March 15 2013 19:00 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 18:21 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:On March 15 2013 18:11 Zealos wrote:On March 15 2013 16:07 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
oh i am astonished, one of the better moves this team has done so far, maybe check out huk next lol Chuck out their Code S Protoss? (You're the reason players shouldn't bother checking forum's ^.^) HuK isn't in Code S. He got to Code S by getting a lucky up and down group and cheesing most of the games. He followed this up by falling straight out of Code S, and then straight out of Code S. HuK has the potential, but I don't know what his practice is like and he does gimmicky strategies that aren't very solid. But he did get to Code S. How many players manage that? If it was easy to just "cheese" through U&D why don't more foreigners manage it?
Not many attempted because it cost an arm to go to Korea for few months. In fact many of those who attempted managed to go to code S, Naniwa, Stephano, Jinro, Idra, thorzain (not sure on this one)
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On March 15 2013 19:36 Rannasha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 19:23 Technique wrote:On March 15 2013 19:08 dabom88 wrote:On March 15 2013 18:48 Technique wrote:On March 15 2013 18:33 dabom88 wrote:On March 15 2013 18:27 Technique wrote:On March 15 2013 17:58 saltis wrote:
I guess that is a warning signal for Huk to stop playing LOL too. No cause he ain't Korean. In sc2 only Koreans are held to a high standard. Posts like this are the reason why there needs to be a mod note on top of this topic. Once again, every progamer is judged on whether they're bringing EG (or any e-sports team) more money than they're paying them. It's called Return on Investment (ROI). This return is based off EG Brand Exposure and EG Sponsorship exposure, which can be judged in numerous ways, including tournament results. They didn't think Puma was bringing in enough of a return, so they tried to negotiate a lower salary to reflect what he was bringing in for them. Puma said no, so they let him go. They didn't just kick him out for not producing results like people who post stuff like this seem to think. He's still #12 in the tournament earnings, only other EG member higher is Stephano who played in way more tournaments. What he's achieved in the past matters less than the results he's achieving now when negotiating a new contract, which reflect the state Puma is in in the present and what they can expect of him in future. He hasn't placed high in tournaments since March of 2012. He hasn't been producing many results in general. He can't speak English, he never streamed much, barely tweeted, was not part of any promotional team activities, and in all this time did not really make any visible effort to become better at speaking English like other fellow Koreans on foreign teams (MC, Polt, Crank, HerO, JYP, GanZi just to name a few) have. As a result, the only thing he had to offer in brand/sponsorship exposure was game and tournament results. And when he hasn't been winning important games, such as in Korea's most prestigious team league, or placing high in tournaments in the past year, he wasn't generating enough brand and sponsor exposure to justify how much they were paying him. So, and I can't believe I'm repeating this again, they offered him a lower salary to better reflect his current state and the return on the investment they expected from him over course of the new contract period. He refused, and since they expected to lose money on their investment in Puma with his current salary, they had to let him go. You are only proving my initial point... Koreans are held to a much higher standard compared to foreigners... Highly achieved Korean player starting to win less? Ok take a big cut in your paycheck or leave the team... That's all this is... It's not like anyone besides Stephano done well in EG lately and Puma most likely already makes less than most foreigners... hence why they say he's ''one of the highest paid Korean on our team''. Of course Koreans are held to higher standards, the average Korean player is a lot less marketable than the average foreign player of similar skill. To expose the public to your sponsors you need to either win a lot or stream a lot and interact with fans. The EG foreigners do a very good job at making themselves and their sponsors visible. The Koreans not so much, partly due to the language barrier, partly due to the fact that Koreans tend to not show their personality as much.
Yes ... I can barely remember seeing Puma stream games, let alone mention sponsors or exhibit any kind of personality. Already, I've seen Jaedong's stream up longer and more often than Puma's.
I think Huk is eventually going to get a slap on the wrist, too. I don't think EG is going to tolerate players that get paid very well, don't post results AND don't proactively promote their sponsors or increase their exposure.
People can complain all they want about IdrA or InControl or Demuslim but those guys plug Raidcall and show off their Razer wares constantly. They're doing the dirty work of pimping sponsors while players in Korea are underperforming and acting like delicate, mute snowflakes.
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Sad, but also good news. Now EG has more money to get more fresh blood to Proleague, what i think is really needed.
Oh yeah, those who whine about InControl and Machine, have you ever thought that Machine's salary is most likely nothing compared to Pumas? Not to mention that he does commercials, visits expos, pays rent and whatnot in the team house, so in the end Machine is pretty valuable to EG with little expense. Just as InControl being one of the most valuable players/members in EG, even though his results aren't no where near decent. In EG's case, it's not about the results why they keep having few of their players, it's about business.
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On March 15 2013 19:49 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 19:36 Rannasha wrote:On March 15 2013 19:23 Technique wrote:On March 15 2013 19:08 dabom88 wrote:On March 15 2013 18:48 Technique wrote:On March 15 2013 18:33 dabom88 wrote:On March 15 2013 18:27 Technique wrote:On March 15 2013 17:58 saltis wrote:
I guess that is a warning signal for Huk to stop playing LOL too. No cause he ain't Korean. In sc2 only Koreans are held to a high standard. Posts like this are the reason why there needs to be a mod note on top of this topic. Once again, every progamer is judged on whether they're bringing EG (or any e-sports team) more money than they're paying them. It's called Return on Investment (ROI). This return is based off EG Brand Exposure and EG Sponsorship exposure, which can be judged in numerous ways, including tournament results. They didn't think Puma was bringing in enough of a return, so they tried to negotiate a lower salary to reflect what he was bringing in for them. Puma said no, so they let him go. They didn't just kick him out for not producing results like people who post stuff like this seem to think. He's still #12 in the tournament earnings, only other EG member higher is Stephano who played in way more tournaments. What he's achieved in the past matters less than the results he's achieving now when negotiating a new contract, which reflect the state Puma is in in the present and what they can expect of him in future. He hasn't placed high in tournaments since March of 2012. He hasn't been producing many results in general. He can't speak English, he never streamed much, barely tweeted, was not part of any promotional team activities, and in all this time did not really make any visible effort to become better at speaking English like other fellow Koreans on foreign teams (MC, Polt, Crank, HerO, JYP, GanZi just to name a few) have. As a result, the only thing he had to offer in brand/sponsorship exposure was game and tournament results. And when he hasn't been winning important games, such as in Korea's most prestigious team league, or placing high in tournaments in the past year, he wasn't generating enough brand and sponsor exposure to justify how much they were paying him. So, and I can't believe I'm repeating this again, they offered him a lower salary to better reflect his current state and the return on the investment they expected from him over course of the new contract period. He refused, and since they expected to lose money on their investment in Puma with his current salary, they had to let him go. You are only proving my initial point... Koreans are held to a much higher standard compared to foreigners... Highly achieved Korean player starting to win less? Ok take a big cut in your paycheck or leave the team... That's all this is... It's not like anyone besides Stephano done well in EG lately and Puma most likely already makes less than most foreigners... hence why they say he's ''one of the highest paid Korean on our team''. Of course Koreans are held to higher standards, the average Korean player is a lot less marketable than the average foreign player of similar skill. To expose the public to your sponsors you need to either win a lot or stream a lot and interact with fans. The EG foreigners do a very good job at making themselves and their sponsors visible. The Koreans not so much, partly due to the language barrier, partly due to the fact that Koreans tend to not show their personality as much. Ummm ... I can barely remember seeing Puma stream games, let alone mention sponsors or exhibit any kind of personality. Already, I've seen Jaedong's stream up longer and more often than Puma's. I think Huk is eventually going to get a slap on the wrist, too. I don't think EG is going to tolerate players that get paid very well, don't post results AND don't proactively promote their sponsors or increase their exposure. People can complain all they want about IdrA or InControl or Demuslim but those guys plug Raidcall and show off their Razer wares constantly. They're doing the dirty work of pimping sponsors while players in Korea are underperforming and acting like delicate, mute snowflakes.
And the important thing is, even if Huk or ANY OTHER PLAYER does get a "slap on the wrist" in the form of a lower salary, which probably does happen or has happened in the past, you wont hear about it because that's bad publicity for EG, and the players are NDA'd from revealing their salary or specifications about contract negotiations.
The only time you would hear about a lowered salary is if they leave the team.
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I saw this comming from the first week he was in Pro league, Puma has been stagnent in his play. Its 1-1-1 or Bust anything over 3 base and Puma crumbles. Hopefully he will take a step back and rework his game and try and improve. I alway did wonder why he never tried to enter code A everytime the qualifiers came around since he was only at a few tournaments.
Hopefully this is also a wake up for the rest of EG.
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People seem to have the wrong idea of e-sports teams. The primary goal isn't to win everything. The primary goal is to make money. And the primary way teams make money and are able to pay their players isn't through splitting tournament winnings. Right now, at least, it's by sponsorships. Sponsors pay teams money to give exposure for them. As such, winning or placing high in tournaments is simply a means to an end, as that helps create exposure for their sponsorships. But exposure can be done in numerous ways. Going on e-sports shows, interacting with fans, holding community events, or simply getting views through streaming or all generates publicity and exposure. And if enough new people buy the sponsor's products as a result of the sponsorship, the sponsor is more likely to make another sponsorship with them for the same or greater amount. The latter can be possible if they feel exposure from that team is important, and they don't want to lose that team to a competitor who might offer the team more money for a sponsorship deal.
And if sponsors don't feel like they got a return on their investment, they'll either offer the team a lower amount or just drop them completely. Again, that's just business.
The same applies for e-sports teams. The way they generate exposure exposure for their sponsors is through players. They pay the players according to how much exposure they feel they'll get from them. This can be done with more than just tournament results, as was stated before. And if they feel like the players aren't giving them a return on their investment, then when their contract runs out, they'll either offer them a lower contract or drop them.
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United States97276 Posts
Sad to see it happen but the whole thing seems reasonable. Hopefully they can put the freed up money to good use. Good luck to finding a new team PuMa. Sometimes a new team is all a player needs for a fresh start and to work their way back up. Just look at BBoongBBoong on AZUBU
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If it's all about sponsors, why even get any Koreans/Europeans on a American based team?
Right... because then EG would never win anything... see how far the fun talk on podcasts brings them then...
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On March 15 2013 20:01 Shellshock1122 wrote:
Sad to see it happen but the whole thing seems reasonable. Hopefully they can put the freed up money to good use. Good luck to finding a new team PuMa. Sometimes a new team is all a player needs for a fresh start and to work their way back up. Just look at BBoongBBoong on AZUBU
B4 was one of the main players getting wins for Prime even before his departure. I'd probably say he brought more wins than Byun, and was right under Creator and MKP. He probably left because Prime wasn't giving him enough money, if anything at all.
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United States97276 Posts
On March 15 2013 20:03 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 20:01 Shellshock1122 wrote:
Sad to see it happen but the whole thing seems reasonable. Hopefully they can put the freed up money to good use. Good luck to finding a new team PuMa. Sometimes a new team is all a player needs for a fresh start and to work their way back up. Just look at BBoongBBoong on AZUBU B4 was one of the main players getting wins for Prime even before his departure. I'd probably say he brought more wins than Byun, and was right under Creator and MKP. He probably left because Prime wasn't giving him enough money, if anything at all.
His individual performance was dropping and near the end he wasnt doing as well in team league. He was definitely doing well when they won the GSTL and all that but he was on the down slope for a while
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On March 15 2013 20:03 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 20:01 Shellshock1122 wrote:
Sad to see it happen but the whole thing seems reasonable. Hopefully they can put the freed up money to good use. Good luck to finding a new team PuMa. Sometimes a new team is all a player needs for a fresh start and to work their way back up. Just look at BBoongBBoong on AZUBU B4 was one of the main players getting wins for Prime even before his departure. I'd probably say he brought more wins than Byun, and was right under Creator and MKP. He probably left because Prime wasn't giving him enough money, if anything at all.
I'd be surprised if B4s move was to do with money. MJ Team, who he moved to, was started up by some former Prime staff. Seems to me more likely he'd have gone to them because of who they were, not what they were paying. (Of course, they might have offered him a better deal too, but I don't reckon it'd be a lifechanging difference)
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On March 15 2013 20:03 Technique wrote:
If it's all about sponsors, why even get any Koreans/Europeans on a American based team?
Right... because then EG would never win anything... see how far the fun talk on podcasts brings them then...
It IS all about the sponsors because sponsors are what make them money. Tournament results is simply part of the package and is just one way of generating sponsorship exposure. They do care about tournament results, but that's not the only thing they use to judge how much a player is worth in generating sponsorship exposure. Not all players are worth the same, and don't forget, not all players on EG get paid the same amount.
On March 15 2013 20:04 Shellshock1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 20:03 dabom88 wrote:On March 15 2013 20:01 Shellshock1122 wrote:
Sad to see it happen but the whole thing seems reasonable. Hopefully they can put the freed up money to good use. Good luck to finding a new team PuMa. Sometimes a new team is all a player needs for a fresh start and to work their way back up. Just look at BBoongBBoong on AZUBU B4 was one of the main players getting wins for Prime even before his departure. I'd probably say he brought more wins than Byun, and was right under Creator and MKP. He probably left because Prime wasn't giving him enough money, if anything at all. His individual performance was dropping and near the end he wasnt doing as well in team league. He was definitely doing well when they won the GSTL and all that but he was on the down slope for a while
Who would you say was better than B4, though, during his departure besides Creator and MKP?
Byun? Maru? I'd still say B4 was better than them during his departure, but I could be wrong as memory isn't 100% reliable. I'd have to check TLPD and Liquidpedia for GSL and GSTL standings but it's too late and I'm tired right now.
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On March 15 2013 20:08 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 20:03 Technique wrote:
If it's all about sponsors, why even get any Koreans/Europeans on a American based team?
Right... because then EG would never win anything... see how far the fun talk on podcasts brings them then... It IS all about the sponsors because sponsors are what make them money. Tournament results is simply part of the package and is just one way of generating sponsorship exposure. They do care about tournament results, but that's not the only thing they use to judge how much a player is worth in generating sponsorship exposure. Not all players are worth the same, and don't forget, not all players on EG get paid the same amount. Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 20:04 Shellshock1122 wrote:On March 15 2013 20:03 dabom88 wrote:On March 15 2013 20:01 Shellshock1122 wrote:
Sad to see it happen but the whole thing seems reasonable. Hopefully they can put the freed up money to good use. Good luck to finding a new team PuMa. Sometimes a new team is all a player needs for a fresh start and to work their way back up. Just look at BBoongBBoong on AZUBU B4 was one of the main players getting wins for Prime even before his departure. I'd probably say he brought more wins than Byun, and was right under Creator and MKP. He probably left because Prime wasn't giving him enough money, if anything at all. His individual performance was dropping and near the end he wasnt doing as well in team league. He was definitely doing well when they won the GSTL and all that but he was on the down slope for a while Who would you say was better than B4, though, besides Creator and MKP? Byun?
To be fair, I might have said that. ByuN is really really good :D
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United Kingdom7161 Posts
That really sucks, always liked Puma. Hope he finds happiness with his new team.
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Good, well explained statement regarding the situation... i gotta say EG, BIG Cudos (from me atleast) It's nice that you are just honest about the whole thing.
The statement in itself is obviously pretty sad. Hope Puma finds a new home ('m sure he will)
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EPT
