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On March 15 2013 20:14 SmoKim wrote:
Good, well explained statement regarding the situation... i gotta say EG, BIG Cudos (from me atleast) It's nice that you are just honest about the whole thing.
The statement in itself is obviously pretty sad. Hope Puma finds a new home ('m sure he will)
What honesty? The statement says absolutely nothing really... for all we know they asked him to swallow a 90% pay cut to make him leave...
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On March 15 2013 20:17 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 20:14 SmoKim wrote:
Good, well explained statement regarding the situation... i gotta say EG, BIG Cudos (from me atleast) It's nice that you are just honest about the whole thing.
The statement in itself is obviously pretty sad. Hope Puma finds a new home ('m sure he will) What honesty? The statement says absolutely nothing really... for all we know they asked him to swallow a 90% pay cut to make him leave...
Did you get that number out from your ass or do you have reliable sources? This part is as honest as it can be right now, since we don't know anything else, and it does sound very reasonable.
PuMa was one of our highest-paid Korean players, and we felt that to truly improve our performance in Proleague, we needed to get more results for our investment. We view Ho Joon as a member of our family, and we didn’t want to simply remove him from our team – in fact, we wanted to, and tried to, renegotiate his contract in a way that would make more sense for both sides (perhaps by balancing a decrease in salary with less Proleague participation and more non-Korean event attendance), but ultimately this approach was not desirable to him, and both of us agreed that it would be best to release him.
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On March 15 2013 14:18 ILouieI wrote:
i'd pick him over incontrol
me to incontrol is probably riding dicks hard to stay on the team
User was banned for this post.
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Make a sensible business decision any team would make and be sincere about it? Get hate.
Oh internet, you´re such a great environment.
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On March 15 2013 20:17 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 20:14 SmoKim wrote:
Good, well explained statement regarding the situation... i gotta say EG, BIG Cudos (from me atleast) It's nice that you are just honest about the whole thing.
The statement in itself is obviously pretty sad. Hope Puma finds a new home ('m sure he will) What honesty? The statement says absolutely nothing really... for all we know they asked him to swallow a 90% pay cut to make him leave...
Point out a quote by them you feel is expressly dishonest, and provide evidence why you feel that way.
Or for all we know they asked him to take a 10% pay cut, or some other completely reasonable number. You can't really make any kind of argument from suppositions like this. Nobody can assume one thing or another.
Just keep in mind, EG has no incentive from a business perspective to "make someone leave" out of simple spite.
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On March 15 2013 20:25 jinzo123 wrote:me to incontrol is probably riding dicks hard to stay on the team
god your an idiot. The role of Incontrol and probably Idra as well is not to be a star player but to provide exposure. Personally I think that Incontrol is one of EG's most valuable members.
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I recall it was pretty weird to see Puma join EG in the first place. He was on top of the game back then, quite a candidate to win GSL. I was wondering why he would throw that away for ... you know EG is not exactly known for talent development. But now I see the picture:
PuMa was one of our highest-paid Korean players
I imagine he's got some bucks out of it. GL to him getting back into the competition.
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On March 15 2013 20:32 JazVM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 20:25 jinzo123 wrote:On March 15 2013 14:18 ILouieI wrote:
i'd pick him over incontrol me to incontrol is probably riding dicks hard to stay on the team god your an idiot. The role of Incontrol and probably Idra as well is not to be a star player but to provide exposure. Personally I think that Incontrol is one of EG's most valuable members.
And he probably is. Being on a weekly e-sports show (and other shows) that is one of the most watched out there, doing commercials, streaming with decent numbers from time to time (just like Idra), having big twitter following as well as him being active on Twitter. (Re-tweeting all the sponsor related tweets, etc) and in my opinion most importantly: he is giving EG even more exposure as a caster. Hell, guy has MLG gig this upcoming weekend. That is pretty fucking big.
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The goal of a company is to make money after all, so when Puma was too much cost without enough beenefit they had to cut back. This truth is sad, but needed for sustainable esports business. HUGE kudos to EG for telling it to us straight with a heartfelt, no bs statement.
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On March 15 2013 20:37 Grettin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 20:32 JazVM wrote:On March 15 2013 20:25 jinzo123 wrote:On March 15 2013 14:18 ILouieI wrote:
i'd pick him over incontrol me to incontrol is probably riding dicks hard to stay on the team god your an idiot. The role of Incontrol and probably Idra as well is not to be a star player but to provide exposure. Personally I think that Incontrol is one of EG's most valuable members. And he probably is. Being on a weekly e-sports show (and other shows) that is one of the most watched out there, doing commercials, streaming with decent numbers from time to time (just like Idra), having big twitter following as well as him being active on Twitter. (Re-tweeting all the sponsor related tweets, etc) and in my opinion most importantly: he is giving EG even more exposure as a caster. Hell, guy has MLG gig this upcoming weekend. That is pretty fucking big.
Yes but then you also got your answer why foreigners and especially Americans will never be able to compete with Koreans.
And imo that is bad, at the end of the day this is still a competitive game... if i want to watch a funny guy i'll watch one of the many great comedians out there.
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I think he could have reinvented 1-1-1 with marine-mine-medivac in hots or some other one base strategy. More Thorjane incoming in proleague!
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On March 15 2013 20:32 JazVM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 20:25 jinzo123 wrote:On March 15 2013 14:18 ILouieI wrote:
i'd pick him over incontrol me to incontrol is probably riding dicks hard to stay on the team god your an idiot. The role of Incontrol and probably Idra as well is not to be a star player but to provide exposure. Personally I think that Incontrol is one of EG's most valuable members.
Yeah, Incontrol is valuable for reasons outside of his playing ability. Same with Machine, though to a lesser extent. I seriously doubt that Incontrol and Machine get paid the same amount of money as the amazing players that EG picks up to play for them, so I seriously doubt that it's an issue.
As for Huk and Idra, I imagine we'll see if they stay with the team or not. If they do then they likely will have accepted any contract renegotiations that EG threw at them, and we, the humble fans, can assume that this means that EG's salary cuts were reasonable.
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It is utterly unbelievable that some people are criticising this with "well why hasn't Idra/Incontrol/HuK/Machine/the whole EG team been kicked for results then?"
Let me give you an analogy. Probably a terrible one but meh:
You own a company (team) that makes boxes (produces results). You have a group of people (players) who mainly make good quality boxes (produce good results) and you have a group of people (players) who mainly advertise your company(stream/develop fanbase/cast/etc, public interactions). Some do some of both.
Now you have a star box maker who is paid more than anyone else. For a year he makes lots of really, really good boxes which gets people (viewers/fans) interested in your company and your boxes. Other staff in your company don't produce as good boxes or as many but they either get paid less or they make up for it in other ways by attracting custom, talking to people and salesmanship; they get people talking about your company. He gets paid more than many of your other staff specifically because of his awesome boxes. Some of your other staff get paid almost as much (or as much) because they're really, really good at attracting buyers for your boxes even if their own boxes aren't as good as his. They make up for it in other ways.
However after a while your star boxmaker falls off a bit. And he's not producing as good boxes or as many anymore. He can't compete with rival box-making companies to produce the very best boxes. You're still getting plenty of orders but your star boxmaker isn't attracting increased custom with his super-quality boxes anymore. So when his contract comes up you try to renegotiate to pay him less since his boxes aren't significantly better than everyone else's now. He refuses and leaves.
Now just because he was your best boxmaker and he left because you wouldn't pay him as much anymore doesn't invalidate the work of other people who never produced as good boxes as he did. They may never be the best boxmaker in the world, but as long as they're good at the advertising part of their job you can afford to keep them for their own unique contribution to the company.
In this case PuMa is your "star boxmaker" and someone like Incontrol would be your lead "advertising guy". PuMa's value was all about results and when his results (boxes...) started getting worse then there was no reason to be paying him the same amount. Incontrol on the other hand is pretty unlikely to win GSL anytime soon, but he essentially represents the quintessential showperson and personality in the SC2 scene; so if he doesn't place top three every tournament it doesn't matter, since his value is measured differently.
And I think I wrote the word "box" there so many times its practically lost all meaning for me. >_>
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On March 15 2013 20:41 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 20:37 Grettin wrote:On March 15 2013 20:32 JazVM wrote:On March 15 2013 20:25 jinzo123 wrote:On March 15 2013 14:18 ILouieI wrote:
i'd pick him over incontrol me to incontrol is probably riding dicks hard to stay on the team god your an idiot. The role of Incontrol and probably Idra as well is not to be a star player but to provide exposure. Personally I think that Incontrol is one of EG's most valuable members. And he probably is. Being on a weekly e-sports show (and other shows) that is one of the most watched out there, doing commercials, streaming with decent numbers from time to time (just like Idra), having big twitter following as well as him being active on Twitter. (Re-tweeting all the sponsor related tweets, etc) and in my opinion most importantly: he is giving EG even more exposure as a caster. Hell, guy has MLG gig this upcoming weekend. That is pretty fucking big. Yes but then you also got your answer why foreigners and especially Americans will never be able to compete with Koreans. And imo that is bad, at the end of the day this is still a competitive game... if i want to watch a funny guy i'll watch one of the many great comedians out there.
Sure, but i feel like the biggest motivation dropper in west is the money from salaries. Just look at the players who are receiving a huge salary. I'm sure it also affects Koreans (such as Puma maybe?)
Anyway, i don't take Incontrol as a comedian. I take him as a person who has the same interests as many others watching him. He knows the scene, he knows about the game and casts well and as you hinted, he is also funny. But being funny isn't why i am watching him/shows he is in, neither should you tbh.
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EG should have released Machine, Incontrol, DeMuslim, Huk and Idra and instead should have kept Puma.
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On March 15 2013 19:53 dabom88 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 19:49 Defacer wrote:On March 15 2013 19:36 Rannasha wrote:On March 15 2013 19:23 Technique wrote:On March 15 2013 19:08 dabom88 wrote:On March 15 2013 18:48 Technique wrote:On March 15 2013 18:33 dabom88 wrote:On March 15 2013 18:27 Technique wrote:On March 15 2013 17:58 saltis wrote:
I guess that is a warning signal for Huk to stop playing LOL too. No cause he ain't Korean. In sc2 only Koreans are held to a high standard. Posts like this are the reason why there needs to be a mod note on top of this topic. Once again, every progamer is judged on whether they're bringing EG (or any e-sports team) more money than they're paying them. It's called Return on Investment (ROI). This return is based off EG Brand Exposure and EG Sponsorship exposure, which can be judged in numerous ways, including tournament results. They didn't think Puma was bringing in enough of a return, so they tried to negotiate a lower salary to reflect what he was bringing in for them. Puma said no, so they let him go. They didn't just kick him out for not producing results like people who post stuff like this seem to think. He's still #12 in the tournament earnings, only other EG member higher is Stephano who played in way more tournaments. What he's achieved in the past matters less than the results he's achieving now when negotiating a new contract, which reflect the state Puma is in in the present and what they can expect of him in future. He hasn't placed high in tournaments since March of 2012. He hasn't been producing many results in general. He can't speak English, he never streamed much, barely tweeted, was not part of any promotional team activities, and in all this time did not really make any visible effort to become better at speaking English like other fellow Koreans on foreign teams (MC, Polt, Crank, HerO, JYP, GanZi just to name a few) have. As a result, the only thing he had to offer in brand/sponsorship exposure was game and tournament results. And when he hasn't been winning important games, such as in Korea's most prestigious team league, or placing high in tournaments in the past year, he wasn't generating enough brand and sponsor exposure to justify how much they were paying him. So, and I can't believe I'm repeating this again, they offered him a lower salary to better reflect his current state and the return on the investment they expected from him over course of the new contract period. He refused, and since they expected to lose money on their investment in Puma with his current salary, they had to let him go. You are only proving my initial point... Koreans are held to a much higher standard compared to foreigners... Highly achieved Korean player starting to win less? Ok take a big cut in your paycheck or leave the team... That's all this is... It's not like anyone besides Stephano done well in EG lately and Puma most likely already makes less than most foreigners... hence why they say he's ''one of the highest paid Korean on our team''. Of course Koreans are held to higher standards, the average Korean player is a lot less marketable than the average foreign player of similar skill. To expose the public to your sponsors you need to either win a lot or stream a lot and interact with fans. The EG foreigners do a very good job at making themselves and their sponsors visible. The Koreans not so much, partly due to the language barrier, partly due to the fact that Koreans tend to not show their personality as much. Ummm ... I can barely remember seeing Puma stream games, let alone mention sponsors or exhibit any kind of personality. Already, I've seen Jaedong's stream up longer and more often than Puma's. I think Huk is eventually going to get a slap on the wrist, too. I don't think EG is going to tolerate players that get paid very well, don't post results AND don't proactively promote their sponsors or increase their exposure. People can complain all they want about IdrA or InControl or Demuslim but those guys plug Raidcall and show off their Razer wares constantly. They're doing the dirty work of pimping sponsors while players in Korea are underperforming and acting like delicate, mute snowflakes. And the important thing is, even if Huk or ANY OTHER PLAYER does get a "slap on the wrist" in the form of a lower salary, which probably does happen or has happened in the past, you wont hear about it because that's bad publicity for EG, and the players are NDA'd from revealing their salary or specifications about contract negotiations. The only time you would hear about a lowered salary is if they leave the team.
Why should the salary of players be public information exactly?
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Never really liked you because of your evil 1-1-1 abuse, Puma... But gl finding a new team!
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Fuck  Sad but he had it coming. Really sorry to hear but I wish him the best of luck with his next team if he decides to stay with SC2. Easily one of my favorite players, it's been rough watching the past season of proleague wanting him to excel so much.
EG/TL needs a Terran if they want to really have solid success in proleague though. This is just a fact, they're so P/Z heavy, it's very easy to snipe them as they're sent out. With Taeja's wrists cutting into his practice and PuMa now gone, ThorZaIN and DeMusliM at home, and honestly on the same level yet, I'm interested to see who they pick up.
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On March 15 2013 19:16 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 19:00 Zealos wrote:On March 15 2013 18:21 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:On March 15 2013 18:11 Zealos wrote:On March 15 2013 16:07 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
oh i am astonished, one of the better moves this team has done so far, maybe check out huk next lol Chuck out their Code S Protoss? (You're the reason players shouldn't bother checking forum's ^.^) HuK isn't in Code S. He got to Code S by getting a lucky up and down group and cheesing most of the games. He followed this up by falling straight out of Code S, and then straight out of Code S. HuK has the potential, but I don't know what his practice is like and he does gimmicky strategies that aren't very solid. But he did get to Code S. How many players manage that? If it was easy to just "cheese" through U&D why don't more foreigners manage it? Foreigners that got seeded in the UnDs usually made it through. Unknown Underdog factor mostly I would assume.
It's happened what, twice?
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On March 15 2013 20:25 jinzo123 wrote:me to incontrol is probably riding dicks hard to stay on the team
LOL I feel sad this made me laugh...
GL to puma in finding a team, if you don't perform all that well AND don't offer much for the team as a whole (like Incontrol does for instance) they will take action sooner or later. Reasonable move.
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EPT
