This is, without a doubt, a tough announcement to make.
Today, we’re announcing that after having him as part of our family for more than a year and half, Evil Geniuses will be releasing Ho Joon “PuMa” Lee from our roster. We’ve parted ways amicably, with both sides very much appreciating what we’ve done for each other. You guys hear this kind of thing a lot in press releases (a player separating from a team, with both sides saying nothing but nice things about the other), and you’re usually skeptical about such public warmth – rightfully so, as oftentimes, it’s a bunch of fluff, with juicy, dramatic, behind-the-scenes details being withheld from the public eye. But this is not one of those cases.
It doesn’t take an expert statistician to figure out that the PuMa we’ve all seen over the past six months hasn’t quite been the same PuMa that we saw in dominant form in the second half of 2011 and the first half of 2012. While a pessimist might snidely remark that this is because the 1-1-1 build isn’t in its prime anymore, we at EG attribute this difference in performance largely to the fact that, over the past six months, EG as a team has focused more on Korean competitions than ever before – most notably, via our participation in the ever-demanding and rigorous Proleague. And, really, Korean competitions were never Ho Joon’s specialty – his Proleague performances were lackluster, and even in his prime, it seemed that he could never catch a break and get out of Code B. But, just as much as he struggled on Korean soil, he excelled outside of his home country.
Looking at it objectively, PuMa’s collection of top three finishes from July of 2011 to March of 2012 is one of the most impressive international (non-Korean) tournament runs Wings of Liberty ever saw. Including his breakout performance at NASL Season 1, he accumulated more than 130,000 USD in prize money over this period, racking up wins at IEM Cologne and NASL Season 2, coming in second at DreamHack Winter and the IEM World Championships (in each case losing by only one map), and coming in third at IEM Guangzhou and ASUS ROG Winter. Over this span, PuMa’s prize money total comes second to only the legendary IM.MVP; if you take into account only tournaments that took place on non-Korean soil, PuMa is far and away StarCraft 2′s biggest earner during this period of time. And, with the exception of NASL Season 1, he was an EG player while earning all of these accolades.
Ho Joon made just as many headlines, it seemed, outside of the game as he did via his tournament accomplishments. This was the case from the very beginning of his tenure on Evil Geniuses, with his decision to leave his Korean team, TSL, drawing the ire (whether deserved or not) of many in the community, including TSL’s Coach Lee. While it may be commonplace now for pretty well-known Korean players to be on non-Korean teams, you have to remember that back then, it just didn’t happen. PuMa was the first notable Korean player to sign with a non-Korean team, and this took a lot of nerve and courage on his part. In 2011, PuMa to EG was quite the headline, even earning a “Biggest News Story of the Year” nomination in TeamLiquid.net’s 2011 Year in Review.
PuMa’s famous 1-1-1 build was extremely polarizing – brilliant to his fans, and cheap to his detractors – and easily “won” the 2011 TeamLiquid.net award for “Best (and Worst) Strategy“. Whether you liked his style of play or not, the simple fact is that you saw Ho Joon in the headlines very often in 2011 and 2012, and he contributed a great amount to our team and the community during that period. His amazing rivalry with Liquid.HerO entertained us all (those two players going back and forth was the driving force behind EG vs. TL winning the “Best Rivalry” award that year, and his accomplishments played a major part in our team tying with Liquid for International Team of the Year 2011. Additionally, he was a fun, goofy presence on our team, and really helped lighten the mood despite the language barrier.
We at Evil Geniuses are very, very thankful for PuMa’s contributions to our team, which obviously begs the question: why are we now parting ways with him? Well, the answer to this is actually pretty simple. Going back to the beginning of this write-up, just as much as Ho Joon is a force to be reckoned with outside of Korea, his performance within Korea has been pretty lackluster. And, for a team that definitely needs a shot in the arm in Proleague, and that has made a commitment to its fans to improve in Proleague, it doesn’t make sense to invest so heavily in a player whose performances come far more frequently outside of Korea than they do within Korea. PuMa was one of our highest-paid Korean players, and we felt that to truly improve our performance in Proleague, we needed to get more results for our investment. We view Ho Joon as a member of our family, and we didn’t want to simply remove him from our team – in fact, we wanted to, and tried to, renegotiate his contract in a way that would make more sense for both sides (perhaps by balancing a decrease in salary with less Proleague participation and more non-Korean event attendance), but ultimately this approach was not desirable to him, and both of us agreed that it would be best to release him.
We will miss you very much, Ho Joon, and we wish you nothing but the best. There’s no doubt in our minds that you’ll see success again in the future, and it will be very strange to see you sporting a different jersey.
Very Sincerely,
Alexander CEO, Evil Geniuses @ottersaresocool on Twitter
That leaves them in some serious line up trouble for pl and any other team league. EG on had thorzain on their lineup for terran, and taeja is not in top form for fpl, things look even worse egtl in proleague. Sad to see him leave eg, wonder who is going to pick him up this time.
On March 15 2013 14:16 ixzenxi wrote: Sad to hear but hope he gets picked up by another team and see him do well again.
Is this the first time EG released a player due to poor results?
They didn't kick him. Read the ending and they said they offered him less salary and some less event times which he didn't want so they decided to let him go.
That's some pretty huge prize money he made, didn't realize it was that much. Obviously he should find a team that he can just play foreigner events and keep raking it in. GL
Puma has been a favorite of mine since he made his qualifying run for the NASL Season 1 finals. Then he joined my favorite team too. It was perfect. It's going to be so weird seeing him in another jersey. Hope he doesn't retire. I love me some Puma.
Ahh, that's pretty sad. I'm actually really thrown off by the fact that this is the team actually letting go of a player. It always seems like it's a player choosing to leave. Interested to see PuMa head somewhere else and hopefully live up to his potential.
Artosis was just saying how he thought Puma might handle Coach Park's coaching style the best and start to shine under the new conditions at EG-TL. Interesting that now right after SotG a very news worthy headline crops up haha.
I bet Puma gets picked up by Azubu or Acer and we start to see him all over foreign scene, maybe even moving to USA like Violet has. I'd love that, as Puma is one hell of a character and I definitely don't want to see him fading away or retiring.
On March 15 2013 14:16 ixzenxi wrote: Sad to hear but hope he gets picked up by another team and see him do well again.
Is this the first time EG released a player due to poor results?
They didn't kick him. Read the ending and they said they offered him less salary and some less event times which he didn't want so they decided to let him go.
He said nothing about him being kicked
They released him, albeit on friendly terms. It was a release nonetheless, as renegotiations failed. Not sure how you read he got kicked.
No hate at all here, but considering playlevels, I'm very surprised Machine and Huk are still around. In terms of personality, I'm not surprised though (they're marketable). Good luck to PuMa in the future. He had some beautiful series, some of my favorites.
I kinda assumed this was coming at some point. Sad to hear, but as the press release said there simply weren't the results posting.
I think what's interesting is that while there was the usual fluff (whether true or not is irrelevant) there was a lot of what seems like blatant honesty here, which surprised me. I'm sure everything about Puma being a great teamate and how he'll be missed is all true, don't get me wrong, but to say that he was approached due to results and that he ended up deciding to part ways despite the offers from EG is interesting and a fresh dose of honesty.
I hope he's able to find a team that fits him as well as EG did, and that he's able to start showing the results he used to.
This kind of gives a lot more credibility to the Alive joining EG rumors now. Despite any friendships that were involved, I think Alive would probably show better results in proleague than Puma did.
Nice writeup from EG.Alex. I can understand where he is coming from with the release. And at the end you know that they gave him a chance but it was a mutual decision to part ways.
it's nice that, for once, someone is transparent in their reasons for letting go of a player instead of some bs politically correct statement like "irreconcilable differences between them and management"
On March 15 2013 14:22 Mortal wrote: No hate at all here, but considering playlevels, I'm very surprised Machine and Huk are still around. In terms of personality, I'm not surprised though (they're marketable). Good luck to PuMa in the future. He had some beautiful series, some of my favorites.
I'm sure Machine and Huk get paid based on results too, and choose to accept lesser salaries that matched their performance when their performance declined.
Puma apparently did not. That is a shame because Puma was my favorite Terran player and EG is my favorite team.
I knew that with Coach Park coming in and EGTL trying to get their shit together for SPL things would change, but this... I didn't see this coming at all T.T gl to Puma where ever he goes!
On March 15 2013 14:16 ixzenxi wrote: Sad to hear but hope he gets picked up by another team and see him do well again.
Is this the first time EG released a player due to poor results?
They didn't kick him. Read the ending and they said they offered him less salary and some less event times which he didn't want so they decided to let him go.
Pretty honest, open assessment of Puma and his current play. They wanted to keep under the proper conditions. Can't figure he's going to find a much better outfit than EG...
On March 15 2013 14:22 Mortal wrote: No hate at all here, but considering playlevels, I'm very surprised Machine and Huk are still around. In terms of personality, I'm not surprised though (they're marketable). Good luck to PuMa in the future. He had some beautiful series, some of my favorites.
I'm sure Machine and Huk get paid based on results too, and choose to accept lesser salaries that matched their performance when their performance declined.
Puma apparently did not. That is a shame because Puma was my favorite Terran player and EG is my favorite team.
Agreed. So you really got boned in this exchange ;_;
It makes sense. Now what doesn't is that Machine is still on EG. My guess is that Machine isn't paid much and is happy with just living in the EG lair with his friends. Still it's not like he's putting out a ridiculous amount of "extra-gameplay content" like Incontrol is, and he hasn't had any competitive SC2 result that I know of for like 1 year and a half. Plus his stream numbers are very low, which is obviously related to the previous points. The fellow seems very nice, so I hope he's thinking of another way to earn his living because the future is quite uncertain.
On March 15 2013 14:24 Waxangel wrote: so sad, if you consider achievements while under the EG banner, he still the most successful SC II player they ever had
if you consider achievements in sc2, he was one of the best WoL players period. 2 NASL's, an IEM, and multiple top 3 finishes as well.
I respect both the openness and professionalism on how EG handled this matter. Best of luck to both parties in the future, I am exited to see the final roster changes coming from EG-TL in round 4 of proleague!
I wonder if they pick up another terran with pro league needing them to field a terran (I believe) in some rounds and Taeja being super busy/Thorzain not in korea atm I wonder if coach Park has some good B teamers he knows about.
On March 15 2013 14:16 GreyKnight wrote: pretty much a nice way of saying he wasn't good enough for his salary.
and machine is?
Unless you know his salary, and have a way to quantify worth regarding starcraft 2... stuff. Then asking that question is pointless. While the statement you're responding to, while put bluntly, is pretty accurate. It boils down to EG not feeling that Puma's current salary was worth what he was giving them as far as exposure or results or anything else. EG management is the only group who can determine what is or is not worth a certain dollar amount as it's a supply and demand issue that is handled specifically and only by them.
If I'm wiling to pay $20 for a stick of gum, then that's it's worth to me. You may disagree, and that's fine, but your belief that it's not worth it doesn't mean anything because it's not your decision to make.
Why are people surprised Huk is still on EG? He is one of the few foreigners to ever make it through an U&D group(and just recently did it), placed fairly well at the last IPL event, and qualified for MLG. He is still a good player, and has actually had better results than Puma has recently.
Anyways, really sad to see Puma go. It was a groundbreaking event when he joined EG, the drama it caused was unreal at the time. That 6 or so months of dominance was astounding to watch. Hope he has success wherever he goes or whatever he does.
Not really unexpected, I've been expecting this for a while now.
The sad thing is he wont get picked up by any team, not from Korean because his PL results are less than that of a B teamer, and no foreign team would invest on a dead talent, and if he does it would be a fraction of the amount from the salary he received in EG and I'm guessing his ego wont allow him to do that by seeing he didn't sign for a lower contract when EG offered one.
The right thing to do is to go to the army, but for some reason Puma doesn't strike me as a character who is brave enough to start fresh.
I thought the 1-1-1 was Polt's signature dish, not Puma. or maybe Puma also did it. oh well. EDIT: I mean, everybody did it, but I meant in a pioneering sort of way.
It's the right move. Puma did very little promotional and tournament results, not of much benefit to EG. Imo they should remove more players so they get quality over quantity. There's no reason to invest in so many players when only half or so will get you the brunt in terms of commericalisation/results.
On March 15 2013 14:31 phanto wrote: I thought the 1-1-1 was Polt's signature dish, not Puma. or maybe Puma also did it. oh well. EDIT: I mean, everybody did it, but I meant in a pioneering sort of way.
On March 15 2013 14:33 TAMinator wrote: It's the right move. Puma did very little promotional and tournament results, not of much benefit to EG. Imo they should remove more players so they get quality over quantity. There's no reason to invest in so many players when only half or so will get you the brunt in terms of commericalisation/results.
without knowing their players salaries, this is an incredibly naive thing to say. Puma probably had a pretty damn good contract since he had a fantastic 2011 into early 2012. Doesn't mean the other guys on roster do.
Puma was one of the few players on EG who are in the team for results, not for popularity. But still, it seems silly to me to "let him go" because of poor results while there are players like incontrol and machine...
On March 15 2013 14:37 graNite wrote: Puma was one of the few players on EG who are in the team for results, not for popularity. But still, it seems silly to me to "let him go" because of poor results while there are players like incontrol and machine...
From what I gathered while reading that, Puma was paid far more than either of those 2.
I have to give credit to EG Alex, this is probably one of the most no-fluff and upfront press releases I've read.
Puma was overpaid based on the last six month, EG offered him less money, he said no, end of story.
I'm pretty sure Machine's salary isn't that high. And EG seems pretty good about keeping members of the original team on board (if they can afford it). I think LZ left the team not because they offered him less, but rather that they offered him the same money and opportunities he already had.
puma being highest paid korean on eg even with Jaedong on it?? if u consider that then this would make sense. also guys they didnt kick him they renegotiated contract and didnt find a mutaul agreement. im sure they have done this to many of the foreign eg players but have been able to come to terms so they didnt part ways. (what foreigner is going to give up salary at this point?) so relax with the why not huk or machine.
On March 15 2013 14:37 graNite wrote: Puma was one of the few players on EG who are in the team for results, not for popularity. But still, it seems silly to me to "let him go" because of poor results while there are players like incontrol and machine...
Well, if he gave as much publicity as either Incontrol or Machine, then I'm sure he'd still be there. But when have you seen Puma in an advertisement? Incontrol probably has the best "cost/performance" ratio in the world. It's all about the marketing, ya know? Gotta have dat $$$$
It is a surprise to me to see EG behave like a "pro" team, and to release Puma based on a combination of underperformance and value (like an NFL team, or an MLB team would act.)
It's particularly a surprise because Team Liquid, my favorite foreigner team, has remained loyalty to players like Nony and TLO even when they weren't performing at the highest levels.
Why is this? Why do some SC2 teams keep players based on performance and others based on loyalty?
On March 15 2013 14:24 Waxangel wrote: so sad, if you consider achievements while under the EG banner, he still the most successful SC II player they ever had
if you consider achievements in sc2, he was one of the best WoL players period. 2 NASL's, an IEM, and multiple top 3 finishes as well.
Let's not go crazy here, PuMa did well in foreign tourneys earlier in WoL, but he was certainly not one of the best players ( I don't think he even qualified for Code A). His achievements are good but still not near top 5 in achievements.
And for people saying why this happen and they keep other players, note that we don't know what their salaries and situation is compared to PuMa.
Cutting the fat. It's really weird though how badly PuMa's play has devolved. Comparing his play from now and his NASL debut, PuMa's age becomes really apparent.
I think we could see a return to form from Puma if he can get back into kespa team house, I feel like if they had given this another couple of months we would have seen Puma flourish again with Coach Park at the helm.
On March 15 2013 14:42 Random_0 wrote: It is a surprise to me to see EG behave like a "pro" team, and to release Puma based on a combination of underperformance and value (like an NFL team, or an MLB team would act.)
It's particularly a surprise because Team Liquid, my favorite foreigner team, has remained loyalty to players like Nony and TLO even when they weren't performing at the highest levels.
Why is this? Why do some SC2 teams keep players based on performance and others based on loyalty?
Did you read the part where EG said they offered him a contract but it wasn't as good as his old one and he declined so they parted ways? So yeah they didn't kick him.
Thats a very big wall of text for someone that haven't performed in the last year and a half. Thanks for OP to bold out the important part.
I didn't know that they paid him that much but then again one of their most paid korean players. They only got JD and Revival thats not Puma, no doubt that JD have a big check but Revival being less paid then Puma? EG sure doesn't know how to negotiate ^^
And I wonder if anyone is looking to pick him up, who would want a bad korean player?
Edit: It's going to be very interesting now in Proleague and if EG wants to pick up another player. Maybe they even push Liquid for another pickup?
On March 15 2013 14:16 ixzenxi wrote: Sad to hear but hope he gets picked up by another team and see him do well again.
Is this the first time EG released a player due to poor results?
They didn't kick him. Read the ending and they said they offered him less salary and some less event times which he didn't want so they decided to let him go.
That's basically kicking him out... I mean, what's the point of being on EG if you're not going to get paid any more than being on Mouz or Eclypsia?
On March 15 2013 14:42 Random_0 wrote: It is a surprise to me to see EG behave like a "pro" team, and to release Puma based on a combination of underperformance and value (like an NFL team, or an MLB team would act.)
It's particularly a surprise because Team Liquid, my favorite foreigner team, has remained loyalty to players like Nony and TLO even when they weren't performing at the highest levels.
Why is this? Why do some SC2 teams keep players based on performance and others based on loyalty?
All depends on what a team is looking to get out of the players and how loyal they can afford to be. Obviously with guys like nony he wasn't breaking their bank account so they could afford to be loyal. TLO is a huge draw from an eyeballs standpoint much like an incontrol on EG even if TLO doesn't do as many shows etc.
Will be interesting to see where Puma goes from here. Doubt he'll get more exposure anywhere else. Hell, just being on EG(taking whatever their offer was) and streaming consistently would've probably made him more money than whatever team he ends up going to. I wish him well but I honestly hope he had some offers lined up and just didn't go out there with nothing. He might be in for a very rude awakening.
EG-TL is going to need to expand their roster, they barely have enough to make a team at all and that leaves little room for injuries or to pick the right players for the right maps and such.
Feel like EG is willing to play the villain in this case, titling the news "EG releases Puma" gives the implication they're kicking him
From a management standpoint though, it makes perfect sense that a player with Puma's current record shouldn't be paid the same amount as a player with Puma's record during his highest period, and honestly if Puma couldn't accept that he doesn't deserve as high of a salary now as he did when he was strong (dominating, really), it's just as much his fault that he's no longer on EG.
I don't really care one way or the other for EG, but I am a fan of Alex Garfield, honest guy
I am just thinking what the reason is that the contract of Puma was not extended, but a player like machine is still in their roster. Both players are not able to perform as well as expected. The main reason is probably as Alex already mentioned in his announcement, the amount of salery the player is receiving. Sad to see Puma leave. Good luck in future Puma!
I imagine Puma will just look for another foreign team that is more interested in picking up Koreans to send to foreign events rather than trying to hack it in proleague.
Edit: Or maybe Liquid'Puma is about to happen, who knows!
On March 15 2013 14:55 Fionn wrote: Only 355 pages to go before we can match the 'Puma joins EG' thread!
Wow I remember that thread being like the biggest thing for sc2 that entire month. It was such an interesting time post NASL with this thing happening.
I really hope Puma searches for a US or EU team and moves there ala Polt. I doubt he'll be looking at such a large salary again though.
On March 15 2013 14:58 damahammer wrote: seems like being Flash's practice partner is not enough :D i think ppl overhyped this guy
Well, he won three tournies, placed second and third at multiple other tournies. When he was at the top he was probably the most threatening player in the world at foreign tournies. Seems like he was pretty appropriately hyped to me, but what do I know!
Makes me wonder why both Machine and Idra has not been released yet. Their performance has been clearly below average, especially with EG's focus in the Korean scene. At this point in time, i doubt the said two players will take any games off Proleague players. Not sure why they're paid well when a player like Puma, who is the highest achiever ever since setting foot in EG is released so suddenly. The terms must have been horrible for him to leave.
Let's look at this on the bright side: EG-TL will no longer have guaranteed loss in Proleague so props to EG for doing what everyone has been hoping for.
I wonder how much of this if any has to do with coach park. I know that puma went to EG for the foreign enviroment, and has instead jsut gone from that slowly back into the Korean style.
On March 15 2013 14:30 Snoodles wrote: This means EG HAS to be planning to hire a korean terran. There's no way they can get through proleague with taeja. They need at least one more.
Shit that's actually true. One single Terran is too restricting for them in Proleague, especially for HotS. Well, they still have Demuslim and Thorzain, but they're not quite good enough I think.
Looking forward to what they could announce next :D
On March 15 2013 14:16 ixzenxi wrote: Sad to hear but hope he gets picked up by another team and see him do well again.
Is this the first time EG released a player due to poor results?
They didn't kick him. Read the ending and they said they offered him less salary and some less event times which he didn't want so they decided to let him go.
That's basically kicking him out... I mean, what's the point of being on EG if you're not going to get paid any more than being on Mouz or Eclypsia?
because if you do well in tournys again, then your in the perfect team to negotiate with. His results were poor, thus the pay cut. And imagine if puma steps it up this next year and did as well or even better when he first arrived in EG. Now he can renegotiate his contract with EG and im sure they'll be more than happy to raise his salary. Let's face it, its better to be in EG at the moment, because they are much more financially secure than most of the teams in the scene.
On March 15 2013 14:16 ixzenxi wrote: Sad to hear but hope he gets picked up by another team and see him do well again.
Is this the first time EG released a player due to poor results?
They didn't kick him. Read the ending and they said they offered him less salary and some less event times which he didn't want so they decided to let him go.
That's basically kicking him out... I mean, what's the point of being on EG if you're not going to get paid any more than being on Mouz or Eclypsia?
PuMa was not a big personality so his compensation was based more on his performance. Machine and Idra have larger fanbases/stream followings and are very valuable tools for EG even if their tournament finishes are poor. It's not as one dimensional as many of you think.
Sad to see him go. I wish they would have agreed on a new contract because of his foreign tourney performances. I hope he finds a new team that treats him well!
On March 15 2013 14:58 damahammer wrote: seems like being Flash's practice partner is not enough :D i think ppl overhyped this guy
Well, he won three tournies, placed second and third at multiple other tournies. When he was at the top he was probably the most threatening player in the world at foreign tournies. Seems like he was pretty appropriately hyped to me, but what do I know!
Going overseas and spanking foreign butt is ez pz, even more so during the time PuMa broke out because we didn't really have those few foreigners that could put up a fight at the time other than HuK, and some what IdrA and Kas on a good day. This was also before every tournament got swarmed with koreans so it was pretty much only PuMa, MC and DRG at most of those events.
He always failed in Korea against tougher opponents and now in Proleague he just fell apart completely. He had a good run, but was overhyped way too long.
Hmm..so performance actually matters on EG? Or just Puma? Since we don`t know the salary of other players I can only assume the other under performers took a pay cut as well (assuming this just isn`t a puma thing)
On March 15 2013 15:07 kKagari wrote: You know, I just don't get it. If Puma was underperforming, what does that make incontrol and idra?
they represent EG much more better than most players. They both huge fan clubs and bring more exposure to the brand rather than some of their fellow teammates, for instance, JYP. Not saying hes a bad player, but we only see him at tourneys. Incontrol and idra have huge fan clubs because they aren't shy like most of the sc2 players (not just koreans). They are all a variety of shows and always seem to have a presence in most of the NA tourneys. For example, when idra/incontrol commentated at the NASL finals in canada. Or incontrol commentated/hosted dreamhack. They get face time and thats much more valuable than the limited showing we get of JYP.
Since PuMa isn't big on his extra-game duties, and he wasn't showing results, this comes as a logical decision by EG. I'm sure PuMa finds it a bit unfair, but that's normal with this type of situation.
The problem with him is he was overhyped. I feel kinda sad for him, he seems like a guy that really wants some big stage but just can't break through. If I were him, I think I'd just retire.
On March 15 2013 15:12 mango_destroyer wrote: Hmm..so performance actually matters on EG? Or just Puma? Since we don`t know the salary of other players I can only assume the other under performers took a pay cut as well (assuming this just isn`t a puma thing)
Under performers might take a pay cut later on, but not until it's time to re-negotiate contracts. Usually you can't just issue a pay cut in the middle of a contract period unless: 1. Reasons to cut pay are already outlined in the contract, and one of those reasons pop up. 2. It's an extreme situation that's not explicitly covered in the contract, but may be covered implicitly
Puma's contract probably ran out and they failed to re-negotiate a favorable contract.
On March 15 2013 15:07 kKagari wrote: You know, I just don't get it. If Puma was underperforming, what does that make incontrol and idra?
they represent EG much more better than most players. They both huge fan clubs and bring more exposure to the brand rather than some of their fellow teammates, for instance, JYP. Not saying hes a bad player, but we only see him at tourneys. Incontrol and idra have huge fan clubs because they aren't shy like most of the sc2 players (not just koreans). They are all a variety of shows and always seem to have a presence in most of the NA tourneys. For example, when idra/incontrol commentated at the NASL finals in canada. Or incontrol commentated/hosted dreamhack. They get face time and thats much more valuable than the limited showing we get of JYP.
I get the brand recognition thing, but you still have to prove you're good. I mean, if I was on EG and they hyped me up with ads and screen time, then when it came to playing I'm bronze material, I'd just be representing the brand negatively.
My gut reaction was to call massive bullshit on releasing Puma before any of their under performing foreign players, but after reading the reasoning, I guess its fair. EG is paying Puma too much for the results he's putting forth. I wonder if Kespa teams will do the same for former BW legends who are under performing in SC2(Bisu, I'm calling you out!)?
Machine does tons of commercials, lives in the EG house in America, and probably was not getting a big of salary as Puma.
When Puma was first signed by EG, he had won NASL and was seen as a future Code S powerhouse. Almost two years later, and he is statistically the worst Proleague player and has never made Code A. No one should be surprised EG gave him a much smaller contract. Puma declined and will probably try to join a foreign team. Since Puma lives in Korea and isn't a personality that does commercials, EG's biggest goal right now in Korea is to be competitive in Proleague. Puma was not doing much wins wise.
Puma seems like a cool dude, but he didn't pan out when it came to expectations. Did well in foreign tournaments, but even those were almost a year ago.
this seems really weird to me... that the korean player is held to a higher standard that the american and euro (white) players...racist?... i understand machine and incontrol and even idra are good branding for EG, but I think the community views them as lackluster/even jokes when it comes to pro-level play. Anyone else thinks this seems racist or discriminatory?
On March 15 2013 15:22 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote: this seems really weird to me... that the korean player is held to a higher standard that the american and euro (white) players...racist?... i understand machine and incontrol and even idra are good branding for EG, but I think the community views them as lackluster/even jokes when it comes to pro-level play. Anyone else thinks this seems racist or discriminatory?
no. i think it should be obvious at this point that EG is mostly, if not solely, concerned with making as much money as possible (a pretty reasonable goal for a company), and Puma hasn't been of much value to them in a long time. he doesn't bring in a lot of publicity and he hasn't been doing well in competition either. the americans you mentioned obviously don't bring in any results (duh, they are american and not Scarlett/like 3 other people), but they offer a lot of publicity like you said. EG also stated that Puma had a big salary, so he must have earned at least more than Machine and probably Incontrol.
Anyone else thinks this seems racist or discriminatory?
No, not even close. From what the official statement said, and from what people pointed to in this thread, I don't see no single reason to call this racism.
On March 15 2013 15:12 mango_destroyer wrote: Hmm..so performance actually matters on EG? Or just Puma? Since we don`t know the salary of other players I can only assume the other under performers took a pay cut as well (assuming this just isn`t a puma thing)
Also, I believe Scoots talked about this before. EG, and most e-sports teams in general, judge on both results AND brand/sponsor exposure. Ideally, a player would have both, but that is not always the case.
Take players like Idra and Incontrol. Not the very best, but they both are very active members of the community. They both go on a lot of e-sports shows, do a lot of interviews, and stream. At all of these they mention their Sponsors, generating exposure. Say what you want about their personalities, but guys Idra and Incontrol do have big followings, which are good for sponsors. As long as you're continuously exposing the brand and sponsors in some way, you don't necessarily have to win every tournament.
On the other hand, we have guys like Puma who were results-based. Winning tournaments also, obviously, creates exposure for the brand and sponsors. However, being someone who only speaks Korean and isn't MC, Puma isn't as active in the community, so he doesn't have as big a following. So he's not winning many games, he isn't generating positive exposure for the EG brand and its sponsors. So naturally, if you aren't generating enough positive exposure to justify your salary, you might have to take a pay cut.
Also, keep in mind, no one has any idea how much anyone on the team gets paid relative anyone else.
Oh wow, this feels like it just came out of the blue. EGs statement is very open and understanding though, you really can't fault them. I like Puma as a player, it's a shame he couldn't pick it up where it was needed. Even though you can argue that Puma wasn't the one to kick on the team, that's not really up for discussion as they all have varying salaries I'm sure, and as some have mentioned, EG reevaluated his salary, which Puma did not accept; they did not simply insta-boot him.
Saw this coming! Good luck to him, but hopefully this will be better for EG. I know they can do better ;D
Really hope they can get some great US blood though. Not to pay him a bunch, but to build into a real beast along with the Koreans who are training for ProLeague etc.
On March 15 2013 15:12 mango_destroyer wrote: Hmm..so performance actually matters on EG? Or just Puma? Since we don`t know the salary of other players I can only assume the other under performers took a pay cut as well (assuming this just isn`t a puma thing)
Also, I believe Scoots talked about this before. EG, and most e-sports teams in general, judge on both results AND brand/sponsor exposure. Ideally, a player would have both, but that is not always the case.
Take players like Idra and Incontrol. Not the very best, but they both are very active members of the community. They both go on a lot of e-sports shows, do a lot of interviews, and stream. At all of these they mention their Sponsors, generating exposure. Say what you want about their personalities, but guys Idra and Incontrol do have big followings, which are good for sponsors. As long as you're continuously exposing the brand and sponsors in some way, you don't necessarily have to win every tournament.
On the other hand, we have guys like Puma who were results-based. Winning tournaments also, obviously, creates exposure for the brand and sponsors. However, being someone who only speaks Korean and isn't MC, Puma isn't as active in the community, so he doesn't have as big a following. So he's not winning many games, he isn't generating positive exposure for the EG brand and its sponsors. So naturally, if you aren't generating enough positive exposure to justify your salary, you might have to take a pay cut.
Also, keep in mind, no one has any idea how much anyone on the team gets paid relative anyone else.
I suppose it's in best interest for both the team and PuMa, which is important. Stinks to see him leave EG, but with any luck things will be bright in the future for both parties!
On March 15 2013 15:32 grindC wrote: Weird to see PuMa leave... I'm guessing he'll join coL or Quantic, if he stays in SC2.
The moment he joins another team, I highly doubt he would of been paid what EG would of renegotiated in his contracted. He has been in a rut for almost a year now, people didn't expect much from him in his PL matches.
The only way he can start redeeming himself is to pull off some huge upsets. Without being on a high profile team his chances of traveling to foreign events is very small, weakening his chances at redemption. There aren't many foreign team leagues so perhaps joining another foreign team might not be his best shot, unless they are offering a salary. His best chance, in my opinion is to try and get on a ESF team and dominate in GSTL and make his way back in code A. Otherwise, within a year and a half, he will become another code B player over staying his welcome in a very competitive game with an even more competitive community.
I'm gonna take a gander and say that Axiom or Acer might be the ones most willing to pick him up. At significantly less than what EG probably offered him as a re-negotiated contract.
On March 15 2013 15:42 Bagration wrote: What?! Puma was EG's ace for so long, it seems cold to throw him off like that.
But that also meant they were paying him a lot of money - which has recently become unjustified. So they offered him less money and he left instead. Sounds fair to me, no?
Speaking of which... I wonder how Puma hopes to find a better contract than what they offered him. He's not particularly hot on the market right now and there's a lot of other strong free agents as well.
On March 15 2013 16:00 CloudCat wrote: What? Would never have thought that they would let go of Puma given the success he brought EG when compared to say Machine.
On March 15 2013 16:00 CloudCat wrote: What? Would never have thought that they would let go of Puma given the success he brought EG when compared to say Machine.
Machine is probably being paid significantly less than Puma was. It's not just how about how many wins they're getting, it's how much they're exposure they're generating for the EG Brand and its sponsors RELATIVE to how much EG is paying them.
Despite how it may seem, Machine does have a quite a few fans and streams regularly. As a result, he has some way of creating exposure for EG and its sponsors, so it probably justifies the smaller salary EG pays him to get a return on investment.
Puma can't speak English well, so he can't expose the EG brand and sponsors as much if he isn't winning tournaments. He wasn't, so EG thought they weren't getting a return on investment for his larger salary, so they tried to renegotiate a smaller, more appropriate salary relative to how much exposure he was generating for them. He rejected it, so they let him go.
On March 15 2013 14:16 ixzenxi wrote: Sad to hear but hope he gets picked up by another team and see him do well again.
Is this the first time EG released a player due to poor results?
They didn't kick him. Read the ending and they said they offered him less salary and some less event times which he didn't want so they decided to let him go.
And the renegotiation was because of results... Either way, hope you find a great team puma.
On March 15 2013 16:04 Antimatterz wrote: Aww really liked Puma, but completely forgot he was a player. Haven't seen news about him in a long time. GL to him in the future!
He played in a good number of teamleagues, most notably Proleague (where he played absolutely terribly), and IPTL, where he was key in helping EG make it to the playoffs the past 2 seasons.
BTW, anyone know of any high-profile Korean Terran free agents that EG might be interested in? The only Terrans they have left on their lineup are Demuslim and Thorzain. That's a lot of pressure to put on just those 2.
I wonder if this was prompted by their superstar coach, who, as Artosis said, is extremely good and expensive, perhaps either he or his salary forced EG to reconsider their investment in the recently lackluster Puma.
Not entirely surprising, I really liked him but now he's juste the shade of what he used to be. I hope he can find a new team and get a fresh start with HotS.
As much as I hated 1-1-1 I really liked watching puma play he had some great tvp and Tvz matches its a shame to see him fall off so far but I think hots will allow him to get some confidence back
On March 15 2013 14:58 damahammer wrote: seems like being Flash's practice partner is not enough :D i think ppl overhyped this guy
Well, he won three tournies, placed second and third at multiple other tournies. When he was at the top he was probably the most threatening player in the world at foreign tournies. Seems like he was pretty appropriately hyped to me, but what do I know!
What you need to know is the level of competition puma faced at those foreign tournaments. He was one of the first koreans to join a foreign team, so was afforded the opportunity to go to a lot of foreign tourneys, which is an opportunity most koreans never got back then. Once more top tier koreans started going to those events, his results started disappearing at foreign tourneys.
Puma was always overhyped due to his foreign tourney wins and the artosis hype of proclaiming him a practice bonjwa. I'm sorry, but if you can't even qualify for GSL even once in your entire career, then you were never one of the top players in the game by korean standards.
You can't compare the koreans to the non koreans in terms of value in eg. Jaedong is a huge name from bw, so even if he's not winning, he still brings the team value and exposure. JYP, Puma, Revival only bring them exposure based on their results. If they're not winning then the exposure isn't as good because they don't do ads, they don't stream, they don't do live on three, etc. Idra can lose all day and everyday, but his fanbase is huge, so he doesn't need to win another game in his career and his fanbase will still be there to see him rage and be on shows and stuff.
It's so funny to read this article. I mean, all the explanations about his performances fall on deaf ears when you know that EG has Machine, Incontrol and Huk. In comparison to those players how is Pumas performance lackluster? Obviously there's another issue at hand. Maybe he isn't such 'money making' personality as far as commercials and similar stuff go. EG pretty much showed it's policy when they decided they were going to boot axslav and keep incontrol, machine etc.
On March 15 2013 16:18 dabom88 wrote: BTW, anyone know of any high-profile Korean Terran free agents that EG might be interested in? The only Terrans they have left on their lineup are Demuslim and Thorzain. That's a lot of pressure to put on just those 2.
Love puma but this is honestly a great move on EGs part. He wasn't winning, and they're trying to be the best they can be. Appreciate the honesty in the statement as well.
On March 15 2013 16:33 Barkas853 wrote: It's so funny to read this article. I mean, all the explanations about his performances fall on deaf ears when you know that EG has Machine, Incontrol and Huk. In comparison to those players how is Pumas performance lackluster? Obviously there's another issue at hand. Maybe he isn't such 'money making' personality as far as commercials and similar stuff go. EG pretty much showed it's policy when they decided they were going to boot axslav and keep incontrol, machine etc.
If you found it funny to read you should have read the whole thing mate! They offered him a contract more suited to his performance, wich I guess at least Machine and Incontrol is already on, but he didn't want it.
On March 15 2013 16:33 Barkas853 wrote: It's so funny to read this article. I mean, all the explanations about his performances fall on deaf ears when you know that EG has Machine, Incontrol and Huk. In comparison to those players how is Pumas performance lackluster? Obviously there's another issue at hand. Maybe he isn't such 'money making' personality as far as commercials and similar stuff go. EG pretty much showed it's policy when they decided they were going to boot axslav and keep incontrol, machine etc.
If you found it funny to read you should have read the whole thing mate! They offered him a contract more suited to his performance, wich I guess at least Machine and Incontrol is already on, but he didn't want it.
we don't know the numbers, they even might have propose 0$ or even negative salary :D
I'm impressed with the frankness and honesty of their statement and intent. None of this "we amicably parted ways after we couldn't reach a mutual agreement" kinda stuff you see all the time, but the honest truth "he was paid too much and he wasn't pulling his weight".
When you are a pro, you represent your team not just in achievements/ performance, but by your personality and your promotion of your team/sponsor. Incontrol has not achieved much, but he does other behind the scenes stuff and promotes EG greatly. Huk still has that foreigner love.
Puma has no personality and is awkward. Don't want to sound rude, but if that's who you are, then your salary is solely based on performance. Koreans need to understand that there's a business side to every sport, and it helps the fans to be more engaged/entertained.
On March 15 2013 14:58 damahammer wrote: seems like being Flash's practice partner is not enough :D i think ppl overhyped this guy
Well, he won three tournies, placed second and third at multiple other tournies. When he was at the top he was probably the most threatening player in the world at foreign tournies. Seems like he was pretty appropriately hyped to me, but what do I know!
What you need to know is the level of competition puma faced at those foreign tournaments. He was one of the first koreans to join a foreign team, so was afforded the opportunity to go to a lot of foreign tourneys, which is an opportunity most koreans never got back then. Once more top tier koreans started going to those events, his results started disappearing at foreign tourneys.
Puma was always overhyped due to his foreign tourney wins and the artosis hype of proclaiming him a practice bonjwa. I'm sorry, but if you can't even qualify for GSL even once in your entire career, then you were never one of the top players in the game by korean standards.
You can't compare the koreans to the non koreans in terms of value in eg. Jaedong is a huge name from bw, so even if he's not winning, he still brings the team value and exposure. JYP, Puma, Revival only bring them exposure based on their results. If they're not winning then the exposure isn't as good because they don't do ads, they don't stream, they don't do live on three, etc. Idra can lose all day and everyday, but his fanbase is huge, so he doesn't need to win another game in his career and his fanbase will still be there to see him rage and be on shows and stuff.
Yeah, it's not like he ever played against any top koreans at the tournies he was in. He only beat this scrub MC a few times to take two golds, lost to him to get a silver. Beat this terrible guy named Hero once to get a gold, lost to him as well for a silver. Took out some pretty terrible Koreans as well on his road to multiple top 8 finishes.
I mean Puma wasn't a god, far from it. But he was a hell of player. During his prime, definitely a top player.
Didn't saw it coming (or is it 'see' ?), but not surprised. At least it's cool to see they Alex admit that part of his prime was when he used and abused an imbalanced build (I remember him slumping a bit after it wasn't good anymore).
And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway. And maybe you didn't realised that maybe they accepted a new contract with less salary because of results, unlike Puma.
idra is slumping yet i dont think his contract gets lower . when a player is slumping you help him not force him ... for idra you get a sport psihologist . for puma you lower his income rly ?? i start hating eg now
On March 15 2013 16:49 xsnac wrote: i dont like this becose :
idra is slumping yet i dont think his contract gets lower . when a player is slumping you help him not force him ... for idra you get a sport psihologist . for puma you lower his income rly ?? i start hating eg now
You don't know if Idra has taken a salary cut due to performance. Last I checked EG, nor does any team, have to make a big post about cutting contracts with certain players. You even say your self you're unsure. Idra got the sport psychologist due to his rage/leaving games early. Not because he was in a slump.
Yet they keep the ever underperforming Huk, incontrol, and idra lol. I guess you can't beat that stream viewership , doesn't matter how many results those guys put up, they will still get paid more than the koreans that are way better.
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote: And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.
That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.
On March 15 2013 16:55 Sc2Null wrote: Since they mention statistics, idra/machine/huk/thorzain have all done worst than puma in the past year...soo...?
I feel too many people aren't reading the entire OP and just jumping on the idea of "Puma cut because not doing good"
OP states that Puma was one of their highest paid Korean players, he was offered a smaller contract due to performance and said no. Thus resulting in the two splitting ways. Once again when bringing in other people on EG, you don't know how much anyone is getting contract wise. Perhaps EG offered them smaller contracts because of performance? And perhaps they took the offer! EG doesn't have to do a press release every time they renegotiate contracts with their players. It's not rocket science folks.
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote: And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.
That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.
Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?
But hey. It's TL so "Burn the witch" "Down with money" "I hate foreigners" etc.
Regardless of people's opinion on it, I'm pretty thankful for EG to provide such clarity on why he was released. If more teams followed this instead of "amicably parted ways and wish each other the best" there would be much less dirtsheets and speculation in the community.
I hope Puma finds his way, as much as I hated what he did to the ladder as a Protoss player, I have to respect his accomplishments.
PuMa was my idol from NASL1, and was the model for Terran for me when I first started playing. Even though he is gone from EG, I hope he finds his way -- he is a talented player, and under the right hands, could be one of the greatest. I hope he finds his way back to that form.
On March 15 2013 16:55 Sc2Null wrote: Since they mention statistics, idra/machine/huk/thorzain have all done worst than puma in the past year...soo...?
I'm going to assume they were paying Puma a lot more than those players, especially from what was said in the article.
On March 15 2013 14:58 damahammer wrote: seems like being Flash's practice partner is not enough :D i think ppl overhyped this guy
Well, he won three tournies, placed second and third at multiple other tournies. When he was at the top he was probably the most threatening player in the world at foreign tournies. Seems like he was pretty appropriately hyped to me, but what do I know!
What you need to know is the level of competition puma faced at those foreign tournaments. He was one of the first koreans to join a foreign team, so was afforded the opportunity to go to a lot of foreign tourneys, which is an opportunity most koreans never got back then. Once more top tier koreans started going to those events, his results started disappearing at foreign tourneys.
Puma was always overhyped due to his foreign tourney wins and the artosis hype of proclaiming him a practice bonjwa. I'm sorry, but if you can't even qualify for GSL even once in your entire career, then you were never one of the top players in the game by korean standards.
You can't compare the koreans to the non koreans in terms of value in eg. Jaedong is a huge name from bw, so even if he's not winning, he still brings the team value and exposure. JYP, Puma, Revival only bring them exposure based on their results. If they're not winning then the exposure isn't as good because they don't do ads, they don't stream, they don't do live on three, etc. Idra can lose all day and everyday, but his fanbase is huge, so he doesn't need to win another game in his career and his fanbase will still be there to see him rage and be on shows and stuff.
Yeah, it's not like he ever played against any top koreans at the tournies he was in. He only beat this scrub MC a few times to take two golds, lost to him to get a silver. Beat this terrible guy named Hero once to get a gold, lost to him as well for a silver. Took out some pretty terrible Koreans as well on his road to multiple top 8 finishes.
I mean Puma wasn't a god, far from it. But he was a hell of player. During his prime, definitely a top player.
Puma was on the rise before joining EG. I remember that he made me some points in the fantasy GSTL, before EG took him (and I still hate EG for that, because the player I traded puma for was a guy named Huk...). Then he proceed to ride on a good 1-1-1 to win some foreign tourneys (as only MC and Hero could afford them at thoses times). He got stuck in code B for 2 years (I think he's the best player that didn't managed to get at least once to code A after multiple attempts), and I don't think he will ever again do a run as good as his NASL 1 run. His prime was over pretty much the day he joined EG, because objectively his best achivements (as in "beat a lot of good people", not "winning some tourneys") were before (but remeber correlation doesn't mean causation).
We really need to get a mod to post a note on top. Note should say to read the entire post. Puma was not simply kicked because he had bad results. People still post this and they're given the same response every time. And that we have no idea how much anyone gets paid.
That's hilarious, they finally cut a player out of their huge roster but they choose one of their Koreans that have potential to improve and not one of their random foreigners that don't do anything like Machine.
Although it's sad that he has to find a new team now, EG clearly wasn't the right place for him anymore, so this decision makes sense. Puma wasn't a strong personality like Incontrol or Idra (haters can hate all they want, but if they take a look at Idra's fanclub thread then maybe they'll understand why he's worth every cent EG pay him), and if you no longer can deliver results, then there's no reason for EG to keep him. EG might seem cruel compared to other teams, but they're in fact just keeping it professional and treating esports as a proper business. Many teams could learn from them.
On March 15 2013 16:49 xsnac wrote: i dont like this becose :
idra is slumping yet i dont think his contract gets lower . when a player is slumping you help him not force him ... for idra you get a sport psihologist . for puma you lower his income rly ?? i start hating eg now
On March 15 2013 16:56 Inori wrote: What's with all the Huk hate? Is this reddit or something? Huk is one of the most succesful and consistent foreigners, not to mention a good personality which sells.
lol, consistent? Hell no. Also I know just as many people that hate HuK as ones that like him.
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote: And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.
That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.
Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?
No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.
On March 15 2013 17:14 IcedBacon wrote: That's hilarious, they finally cut a player out of their huge roster but they choose one of their Koreans that have potential to improve and not one of their random foreigners that don't do anything like Machine.
Machine was one of the original members of EGs starcraft division, and he seems to have a very positive effect on team morale, like Incontrol.
aw man thats sad but makes sense, gotta boost the roster for proleauge, gl Puma hope you find a great new team also I bet he will win lots now that EG curse has been lifted
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote: And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.
That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.
Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?
No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.
They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.
As a business, what they care about the most is the bottom line. So the main question is always going to be is EG getting a return on their investment on a player. And results isn't the only way to get a return on your investment.
They tried to renegotiate their contract. All they asked was for a pay cut from on their top-paid players who was underperforming to better reflect his performance. He said no, and so they decided not to renew their contract with him. That's just business.
This is probably the most honest of any of the player releases I've ever seen. Puma's aggressive early to mid game was lots of fun to watch but lately, it just hasn't panned out. Sorry to see him go .
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote: And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.
That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.
Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?
No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.
They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.
I don't know how many more times I can write this, but I don't read about any other things in their statements. They're saying it's all about the results, and it's not.
God, TeamLiquid has become such a cesspool of idiocy. You have an announcement like this, and half of the thread is filled with complete dumbasses talking about firing Machine, incontrol, idra, etc. If you're completely lacking in the ability to comprehend the most basic of business actions, you shouldn't even be posting here.
And I'm really, really sorry to see Puma leave EG. He was one of my absolute favourite players to watch - his army micro was always such a pleasure to see - and I always hoped to see him return to form in tournaments. Maybe he'll still achieve success again, but if not, I hope these last two years have been good to him.
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote: And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.
That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.
Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?
No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.
They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.
I don't know how many more times I can write this, but I don't read about any other things in their statements. They're saying it's all about the results, and it's not.
And I don't know how many more times I can write this, but as a business, what they care about the most is the bottom line. So the main question is always going to be is EG getting a return on their investment on a player. And results isn't the only way to get a return on your investment. It's just one of the ways, and they do take results into consideration.
They tried to renegotiate their contract. All they asked was for a pay cut from on their top-paid players who was underperforming. A salary to better reflect his performance. He said no, and so they decided not to renew their contract with him. That's just business. You don't just pay a player the same amount for not bringing the same level of return on the investment you made on him as before.
On March 15 2013 16:49 xsnac wrote: i dont like this becose :
idra is slumping yet i dont think his contract gets lower . when a player is slumping you help him not force him ... for idra you get a sport psihologist . for puma you lower his income rly ?? i start hating eg now
IdrA is not slumping on the EG value card. He is as visible on the scene as ever, and possibly more with all the Razer shows, ITG's and other appearances. It's just that he's not winning stuff just now. But the fact that he's one of the last people to take out the GSL champion in a Bo3 says he is still a force to be reckoned with. And this translates into massive visibility. Just consider, Idra v Minigun in the MLG showmatches (results-wise a slumping player versus a player with 0 results) drew in the largest view count of any evening...
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote: And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.
That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.
Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?
No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.
They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.
I don't know how many more times I can write this, but I don't read about any other things in their statements. They're saying it's all about the results, and it's not.
They're not gonna write in a press release that Puma didn't have a selling personality, that would be incredibly unprofessional to attack a former employee's person. The reason they keep Idra, Incontrol and the likes is that they are valuable personalities, extremely good PR, and good for team morale. Puma wasn't. They don't need to write that in a press realease. Grow up.
On March 15 2013 14:14 Jaaaaasper wrote: That leaves them in some serious line up trouble for pl and any other team league. EG on had thorzain on their lineup for terran, and taeja is not in top form for fpl, things look even worse egtl in proleague. Sad to see him leave eg, wonder who is going to pick him up this time.
I don't think that losing someone who went 1-7 is really going to hurt their line up.
I'm actually surprised EG have been this patient with him in all this time, especially when it is revealed that he was one of the highest paid players on the team. From the perspective of an outsider looking in, seeing him in all those IEG interview videos at the team house and then his actual performance in Proleague when he was sent out, it really seemed like he had become complacent and was not anymore putting in as much effort as he used to.
In light of this, I'm quite astonished that Puma would not be a little more realistic and accept less pay reflecting his recent performance more aptly, but still get the chance to be sent to foreign events to prove himself again. I doubt he will ever get a better deal anywhere else. He never streamed much, barely tweeted, was not part of any promotional team activities, and in all this time did not really make any visible effort to become better at speaking English like other fellow Koreans on foreign teams (MC, Polt, Crank, HerO, JYP, GanZi just to name a few) have.
If his release means that there will now be more money available for better players (and a prominent coach) to improve the situation for EG-TL in Proleague, then I see this as a most welcome step taken and look forward to things to come.
Either way, all the best to Puma in whatever will be next for him in life.
Wow, I was not expecting this. I really likes Puma on EG, its gonna be strange hearing him under a different team now But anyways, lets hope Puma gets picked up by a good team soon so we can see more of him :D
It's a classic case of a guy getting paid too much too soon. Happens all the time. Especially in the gaming industry.
There's a lesson here, guys. The more money you make, the higher the expectations are, the bigger the target is on you back and the more expendable you become.
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote: And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.
That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.
Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?
No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.
They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.
I don't know how many more times I can write this, but I don't read about any other things in their statements. They're saying it's all about the results, and it's not.
And I don't know how many more times I can write this, but as a business, what they care about the most is the bottom line. So the main question is always going to be is EG getting a return on their investment on a player. And results isn't the only way to get a return on your investment. It's just one of the ways, and they do take results into consideration.
They tried to renegotiate their contract. All they asked was for a pay cut from on their top-paid players who was underperforming. A salary to better reflect his performance. He said no, and so they decided not to renew their contract with him. That's just business. You don't just pay a player the same amount for not bringing the same level of return on the investment you made on him as before.
So you still don't understand that all I'm talking about is the discrepancy between their statement and the reality?
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote: And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.
That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.
Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?
No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.
They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.
I don't know how many more times I can write this, but I don't read about any other things in their statements. They're saying it's all about the results, and it's not.
And I don't know how many more times I can write this, but as a business, what they care about the most is the bottom line. So the main question is always going to be is EG getting a return on their investment on a player. And results isn't the only way to get a return on your investment. It's just one of the ways, and they do take results into consideration.
They tried to renegotiate their contract. All they asked was for a pay cut from on their top-paid players who was underperforming. A salary to better reflect his performance. He said no, and so they decided not to renew their contract with him. That's just business. You don't just pay a player the same amount for not bringing the same level of return on the investment you made on him as before.
So you still don't understand that all I'm talking about is the discrepancy between their statement and the reality?
And you didn't care to read my reply to you? Some things you just don't say in official press. This is business, dude, not kindergarten.
On March 15 2013 17:30 KoRStarvid wrote: They're not gonna write in a press release that Puma didn't have a selling personality, that would be incredibly unprofessional to attack a former employee's person. The reason they keep Idra, Incontrol and the likes is that they are valuable personalities, extremely good PR, and good for team morale. Puma wasn't. They don't need to write that in a press realease. Grow up.
They don't need to to anything, and I don't need to either. But when someone writes bullshit, I'm free to talk about it, and no amount of money they make changes that.
I have to admit, as an EG-TL Proleague fan, there's a part of me that's happy to see Puma part ways with EG. He was having a very troubled time in Proleague, and perhaps he has the skill that would have enabled him to bounce back, but seeing him being put on the field by @EGtrotRC over and over again up to a 0-6 record (over other, more eligible teammates) was personally painful to watch as a fan. Now that it's HotS, perhaps he could have been given another chance, but I'm sure EG (and perhaps Puma) had considered that and thought it wasn't the best option.
At the same time, however, I wish Puma well and especially after reading the great write-up and teammate testimonials on the EG press page, he truly did have a remarkable record and run in Wings of Liberty at his prime - http://evilgeniuses.net/eg-releases-ho-joon-puma-lee/
On March 15 2013 14:14 HeeroFX wrote: I was thinking Machine, and Huk would be the first to go honestly.
I dunno about Machine, but Huk is still performing decently well (he actually got out of his Up/Down group in GSL most recently). And who knows what shape he is going into HotS. Imma gonna tell you guys, "I told you so!" if he beats Innovation this Friday / today at MLG Dallas (but as almost anyone would tell you, that's a bit of a long shot).
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote: And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.
That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.
Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?
No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.
They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.
I don't know how many more times I can write this, but I don't read about any other things in their statements. They're saying it's all about the results, and it's not.
And I don't know how many more times I can write this, but as a business, what they care about the most is the bottom line. So the main question is always going to be is EG getting a return on their investment on a player. And results isn't the only way to get a return on your investment. It's just one of the ways, and they do take results into consideration.
They tried to renegotiate their contract. All they asked was for a pay cut from on their top-paid players who was underperforming. A salary to better reflect his performance. He said no, and so they decided not to renew their contract with him. That's just business. You don't just pay a player the same amount for not bringing the same level of return on the investment you made on him as before.
So you still don't understand that all I'm talking about is the discrepancy between their statement and the reality?
Please enlighten us on what you feel is a "discrepancy". Give backed-up arguments, not general statements.
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote: And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.
That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.
Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?
No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.
They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.
I don't know how many more times I can write this, but I don't read about any other things in their statements. They're saying it's all about the results, and it's not.
And I don't know how many more times I can write this, but as a business, what they care about the most is the bottom line. So the main question is always going to be is EG getting a return on their investment on a player. And results isn't the only way to get a return on your investment. It's just one of the ways, and they do take results into consideration.
They tried to renegotiate their contract. All they asked was for a pay cut from on their top-paid players who was underperforming. A salary to better reflect his performance. He said no, and so they decided not to renew their contract with him. That's just business. You don't just pay a player the same amount for not bringing the same level of return on the investment you made on him as before.
So you still don't understand that all I'm talking about is the discrepancy between their statement and the reality?
And you didn't care to read my reply to you? Some things you just don't say in official press. This is business, dude, not kindergarten.
Tell that to all the people who applaud EG for their honesty in this thread
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote: And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.
That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.
Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?
No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.
They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.
I don't know how many more times I can write this, but I don't read about any other things in their statements. They're saying it's all about the results, and it's not.
And I don't know how many more times I can write this, but as a business, what they care about the most is the bottom line. So the main question is always going to be is EG getting a return on their investment on a player. And results isn't the only way to get a return on your investment. It's just one of the ways, and they do take results into consideration.
They tried to renegotiate their contract. All they asked was for a pay cut from on their top-paid players who was underperforming. A salary to better reflect his performance. He said no, and so they decided not to renew their contract with him. That's just business. You don't just pay a player the same amount for not bringing the same level of return on the investment you made on him as before.
So you still don't understand that all I'm talking about is the discrepancy between their statement and the reality?
Please enlighten us on what you feel is a "discrepancy". Give backed-up arguments, not general statements.
I have already done that, go read my posts and the ones I replied to.
So they kick out one of their only players who's actually gotten results to his name.
Seems like idra/huk/incontrol would be first on the list really, but hey at least they're making good decisions by removing players who aren't performing.
On March 15 2013 17:30 KoRStarvid wrote: They're not gonna write in a press release that Puma didn't have a selling personality, that would be incredibly unprofessional to attack a former employee's person. The reason they keep Idra, Incontrol and the likes is that they are valuable personalities, extremely good PR, and good for team morale. Puma wasn't. They don't need to write that in a press realease. Grow up.
They don't need to to anything, and I don't need to either. But when someone writes bullshit, I'm free to talk about it, and no amount of money they make changes that.
It wasn't bullshit. He was hired because they expected him to produce results. He did for a while, but doesn't anylonger. We're not trying to stop you from speaking. We're trying to make you understand that this isn't some kind of idealistic union, but a business. You need to get a job and grow up.
On March 15 2013 17:38 Headnoob wrote: So they kick out one of their only players who's actually gotten results to his name.
Seems like idra/huk/incontrol would be first on the list really, but hey at least they're making good decisions by removing players who aren't performing.
Do you actually think you're making an intelligent point? Because there's absolutely nothing intelligent about this post.
On March 15 2013 17:39 KoRStarvid wrote: You need to get a job and grow up.
That's literally the best way to admit you're arguments are wrong. Pathetic.
It's the best way to admit that i exist in a little thing called reality, where you can't base your decisions just on "being nice". They told the truth in their statement. They value all their employees differently, and Pumas value was based on the results he put out in playing. Get real.
EDIT: And if you can't understand that, then this discussion ends here.
On March 15 2013 17:39 KoRStarvid wrote: You need to get a job and grow up.
That's literally the best way to admit you're arguments are wrong. Pathetic.
I have absolutely no clue what you're pretending to prove here. If you want to pretend that EG doesn't care about results, by all means, continue. Just stop trying to convince other people that you actually make sense.
I think it is a bold move. It shows the other players on the team that no one is protected and that results are demanded or you will be shown the door. I like the move, pity it had to be Puma though, I reckon the guy has improvement in him.
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote: And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.
That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.
Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?
No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.
They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.
I don't know how many more times I can write this, but I don't read about any other things in their statements. They're saying it's all about the results, and it's not.
And I don't know how many more times I can write this, but as a business, what they care about the most is the bottom line. So the main question is always going to be is EG getting a return on their investment on a player. And results isn't the only way to get a return on your investment. It's just one of the ways, and they do take results into consideration.
They tried to renegotiate their contract. All they asked was for a pay cut from on their top-paid players who was underperforming. A salary to better reflect his performance. He said no, and so they decided not to renew their contract with him. That's just business. You don't just pay a player the same amount for not bringing the same level of return on the investment you made on him as before.
So you still don't understand that all I'm talking about is the discrepancy between their statement and the reality?
And you didn't care to read my reply to you? Some things you just don't say in official press. This is business, dude, not kindergarten.
Tell that to all the people who applaud EG for their honesty in this thread
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote: And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.
That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.
Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?
No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.
They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.
I don't know how many more times I can write this, but I don't read about any other things in their statements. They're saying it's all about the results, and it's not.
And I don't know how many more times I can write this, but as a business, what they care about the most is the bottom line. So the main question is always going to be is EG getting a return on their investment on a player. And results isn't the only way to get a return on your investment. It's just one of the ways, and they do take results into consideration.
They tried to renegotiate their contract. All they asked was for a pay cut from on their top-paid players who was underperforming. A salary to better reflect his performance. He said no, and so they decided not to renew their contract with him. That's just business. You don't just pay a player the same amount for not bringing the same level of return on the investment you made on him as before.
So you still don't understand that all I'm talking about is the discrepancy between their statement and the reality?
Please enlighten us on what you feel is a "discrepancy". Give backed-up arguments, not general statements.
I have already done that, go read my posts and the ones I replied to.
Dude, most companies or sports teams would never admit they were unsatisfied with a player's performance, or admit they were overpaid.
The fact that EG admitted to both in a press release is surprisingly honest.
On March 15 2013 17:39 KoRStarvid wrote: You need to get a job and grow up.
That's literally the best way to admit you're arguments are wrong. Pathetic.
It's the best way to admit that i exist in a little thing called reality, where you can't base your decisions just on "being nice".
Nope, that's not what personal attacks are. You're not a business here, you don`t make any money off of attacking people on teamliquid.
I'm sorry if you took that as personal agression, but you genuinely acted like a person who has no idea what business is like, probably because you have not been working. If you feel offended, then I'm sorry. My arguments in the discussion still stands though.
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote: And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.
That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.
Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?
No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.
They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.
I don't know how many more times I can write this, but I don't read about any other things in their statements. They're saying it's all about the results, and it's not.
And I don't know how many more times I can write this, but as a business, what they care about the most is the bottom line. So the main question is always going to be is EG getting a return on their investment on a player. And results isn't the only way to get a return on your investment. It's just one of the ways, and they do take results into consideration.
They tried to renegotiate their contract. All they asked was for a pay cut from on their top-paid players who was underperforming. A salary to better reflect his performance. He said no, and so they decided not to renew their contract with him. That's just business. You don't just pay a player the same amount for not bringing the same level of return on the investment you made on him as before.
So you still don't understand that all I'm talking about is the discrepancy between their statement and the reality?
And you didn't care to read my reply to you? Some things you just don't say in official press. This is business, dude, not kindergarten.
Tell that to all the people who applaud EG for their honesty in this thread
On March 15 2013 16:47 Sakray wrote: And for all the machine/idra/incontrol haters, if I follow your logic, EG has to release their entire sc2 team. Haters gonna hate anyway.
That's not our logic, it's what they want us to believe is their logic. I don't hate idra, machine or incontrol. But PuMa has had better results in a month than these three had over their entire SC2 career. EG wants entertainers, not players.
Yep. A lot of teams do. Why do you think casters even get sponsorships? Because they're about to win WCG in their spare time?
No, and a lawyer won't win WCG either. I judge players (not casters) based on their playing, and in the statement in the OP, EG pretends they do to. Which they clearly don't.
They do judge based on results. It's just that results isn't the only thing they judge them on.
I don't know how many more times I can write this, but I don't read about any other things in their statements. They're saying it's all about the results, and it's not.
And I don't know how many more times I can write this, but as a business, what they care about the most is the bottom line. So the main question is always going to be is EG getting a return on their investment on a player. And results isn't the only way to get a return on your investment. It's just one of the ways, and they do take results into consideration.
They tried to renegotiate their contract. All they asked was for a pay cut from on their top-paid players who was underperforming. A salary to better reflect his performance. He said no, and so they decided not to renew their contract with him. That's just business. You don't just pay a player the same amount for not bringing the same level of return on the investment you made on him as before.
So you still don't understand that all I'm talking about is the discrepancy between their statement and the reality?
Please enlighten us on what you feel is a "discrepancy". Give backed-up arguments, not general statements.
I have already done that, go read my posts and the ones I replied to.
Your statements have only come down to "They don't care about results". People have refuted that statement, and you refuse to address any of those refutations besides repeating your argument of "They don't care about results".
On March 15 2013 17:43 WolfintheSheep wrote: I have absolutely no clue what you're pretending to prove here. If you want to pretend that EG doesn't care about results, by all means, continue. Just stop trying to convince other people that you actually make sense.
I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm voicing my discontent about an EG decision that is financially sound. I'm not invested in EG, so my opinion isn't based on their finances. Then a swarm of wannabe CEOs attacked me for having the wrong opinion and I tried to answer, which seems to have been a horrible mistake.
On March 15 2013 17:43 WolfintheSheep wrote: I have absolutely no clue what you're pretending to prove here. If you want to pretend that EG doesn't care about results, by all means, continue. Just stop trying to convince other people that you actually make sense.
I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm voicing my discontent about an EG decision that is financially sound. I'm not invested in EG, so my opinion isn't based on their finances. Then a bajillion of wannabe CEOs attacked me for having the wrong opinion and I tried to answer, which seems to have been a horrible mistake.
Then repeat after me:
"I understand the business decision, but I'm sad to see Puma let go."
If you want to troll around by ranting about EG wanting entertainers, do it in the hundreds of other threads it's been rehashed.
EG has been successful because they're walking billboards for their sponsors and they do this better than anyone else in the industry. Winning tournaments provides you with a huge amount of visibility obviously, but it is not the only way. What is unfortunate is that for a lot of reasons, some of them cultural, if not simply due to linguistic barriers, with notable exceptions like MC, Koreans' have mostly only been visible because of their wins. Just look at the recent Polt interview. Its a common reaction for people to go "ITS A KOREAN SPEAKING ENGLISH OOO MMM GGG EEE!".
On March 15 2013 17:43 WolfintheSheep wrote: I have absolutely no clue what you're pretending to prove here. If you want to pretend that EG doesn't care about results, by all means, continue. Just stop trying to convince other people that you actually make sense.
I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm voicing my discontent about an EG decision that is financially sound. I'm not invested in EG, so my opinion isn't based on their finances. Then a swarm of wannabe CEOs attacked me for having the wrong opinion and I tried to answer, which seems to have been a horrible mistake.
You're not giving an opinion, you're making an argument. Though the guy who told you to "Get a job" was out of line, that doesn't mean people refuting your argument equates to "a swarm of wannabe CEOs attacking you". Don't try to play the victim in lieu of substantively backing up your statements and addressing your counterpoints.
On March 15 2013 17:43 WolfintheSheep wrote: I have absolutely no clue what you're pretending to prove here. If you want to pretend that EG doesn't care about results, by all means, continue. Just stop trying to convince other people that you actually make sense.
I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm voicing my discontent about an EG decision that is financially sound. I'm not invested in EG, so my opinion isn't based on their finances. Then a bajillion of wannabe CEOs attacked me for having the wrong opinion and I tried to answer, which seems to have been a horrible mistake.
Then repeat after me:
"I understand the business decision, but I'm sad to see Puma let go."
If you want to troll around by ranting about EG wanting entertainers, do it in the hundreds of other threads it's been rehashed.
Pretty much this. "I'm sad to see Puma go" is an opinion. What you're doing is saying that EG doesn't care about results at all and that letting Puma go was the wrong choice, which is more than just "voicing discontent". It's an argument, which you have to back up with evidence and address your counterpoints.
Puma has been my favorite player since his breakout in NASL season 1. As disappointed as I am with he and EG parting ways, I have hopes that he can find his old self with a new team. Complexity maybe?
On March 15 2013 17:52 trada wrote: It'd be funny if PuMa goes on a tournament spree and starts winning again because its not WoL anymore.
well, reapers, widow mines, speed medivacs ... and mean there's a lot there for a guy like Puma to abuse.
Yeah, it does seem odd to dump a terran player right at the time HotS is out, unless they have seen him playing HotS in beta and he's not been good enough to make it worthwhile keeping him around in the hope he can get better as a team/Proleague player.
On March 15 2013 14:18 Ace1123 wrote: Go to LG IM!
That doesn't make much sense. PuMa should go to some US or maybe Euro team. Dignitas, Mousesports, Western Wolves, maybe ROOT or maybe-maybe FXO (non korean divisions) make much more sense imho.
Also I was probably more excited by his rivalry with MC which started at NASL1 and lasted pretty much until IEM S6 WC. This one really shown ups and downs of TvP of the time.
On March 15 2013 16:07 {ToT}ColmA wrote: oh i am astonished, one of the better moves this team has done so far, maybe check out huk next lol
Chuck out their Code S Protoss? (You're the reason players shouldn't bother checking forum's ^.^)
HuK isn't in Code S. He got to Code S by getting a lucky up and down group and cheesing most of the games. He followed this up by falling straight out of Code S, and then straight out of Code S.
HuK has the potential, but I don't know what his practice is like and he does gimmicky strategies that aren't very solid.
On March 15 2013 14:18 Ace1123 wrote: Go to LG IM!
That doesn't make much sense. PuMa should go to some US or maybe Euro team. Dignitas, Mousesports, Western Wolves, maybe ROOT or maybe-maybe FXO (non korean divisions) make much more sense imho.
Also I was probably more excited by his rivalry with MC which started at NASL1 and lasted pretty much until IEM S6 WC. This one really shown ups and downs of TvP of the time.
I could actually see FXO or Root. Possibly Western Wolves. They seem to have the money to fly people places.
Maybe he'll even join SK with MC. With SK flying MC everywhere, Puma would probably like that.
if hes one of the highest paid koreans its obivously he needed a decrease and so i think this is the best way he just underperforms since alot of month perhaps that makes him help to make CLICK i need to improve again
On March 15 2013 17:58 saltis wrote: I guess that is a warning signal for Huk to stop playing LOL too.
No cause he ain't Korean.
In sc2 only Koreans are held to a high standard.
Posts like this are the reason why there needs to be a mod note on top of this topic.
Once again, every progamer is judged on whether they're bringing EG (or any e-sports team) more money than they're paying them. It's called Return on Investment (ROI). This return is based off EG Brand Exposure and EG Sponsorship exposure, which can be judged in numerous ways, including tournament results.
They didn't think Puma was bringing in enough of a return, so they tried to negotiate a lower salary to reflect what he was bringing in for them. Puma said no, so they let him go. They didn't just kick him out for not producing results like people who post stuff like this seem to think.
Long overdue. You either show results apropriate to your salary or you have a high enough advertisement value. If you have neither, then you are off the team. That's the way it works and if you were a 111-hit-wonder, you're not worth it over a longer period of time.
On March 15 2013 18:34 Kuni wrote: Long overdue. You either show results apropriate to your salary or you have a high enough advertisement value. If you have neither, then you are off the team. That's the way it works and if you were a 111-hit-wonder, you're not worth it over a longer period of time.
Well, it's not just that simple. More accurately in this situation, "If you have neither, then you either accept a lower salary that more accurately reflects your results/advertisement value, or you walk away from their offer and are off the team"
On March 15 2013 17:58 saltis wrote: I guess that is a warning signal for Huk to stop playing LOL too.
No cause he ain't Korean.
In sc2 only Koreans are held to a high standard.
Posts like this are the reason why there needs to be a mod note on top of this topic.
Once again, every progamer is judged on whether they're bringing EG (or any e-sports team) more money than they're paying them. It's called Return on Investment (ROI). This return is based off EG Brand Exposure and EG Sponsorship exposure, which can be judged in numerous ways, including tournament results.
They didn't think Puma was bringing in enough of a return, so they tried to negotiate a lower salary to reflect what he was bringing in for them. Puma said no, so they let him go. They didn't just kick him out for not producing results like people who post stuff like this seem to think.
He's still #12 in the tournament earnings, only other EG member higher is Stephano who played in way more tournaments.
I find the timing a bit strange considering HoTS is now released. I think EG should have waited a month or two to see if HoTS sparked pumas creativity and brought new life to his games. Also, i find it disturbing that EG writes "Puma was our higest paid korean". Its like he had a very good contract, for a korean.
On March 15 2013 18:34 Kuni wrote: Long overdue. You either show results apropriate to your salary or you have a high enough advertisement value. If you have neither, then you are off the team. That's the way it works and if you were a 111-hit-wonder, you're not worth it over a longer period of time.
Well, it's not just that simple. More accurately in this situation, "If you have neither, then you either accept a lower salary that more accurately reflects your results/advertisement value, or you walk away from their offer and are off the team"
It's too easy to say "Well he was offered a lower salary, but he refused and walked away". If you look at his results, then that new offer probably wouldn't have been sustainable at all for him and his life. You can force someone away by offering him a pathetic salary.
We don't know what the new offer was and how exactly they negotiated, but it still is something to be kept in mind, when talking about it.
On March 15 2013 16:07 {ToT}ColmA wrote: oh i am astonished, one of the better moves this team has done so far, maybe check out huk next lol
Chuck out their Code S Protoss? (You're the reason players shouldn't bother checking forum's ^.^)
HuK isn't in Code S. He got to Code S by getting a lucky up and down group and cheesing most of the games. He followed this up by falling straight out of Code S, and then straight out of Code S.
HuK has the potential, but I don't know what his practice is like and he does gimmicky strategies that aren't very solid.
But he did get to Code S. How many players manage that? If it was easy to just "cheese" through U&D why don't more foreigners manage it?
On March 15 2013 17:58 saltis wrote: I guess that is a warning signal for Huk to stop playing LOL too.
No cause he ain't Korean.
In sc2 only Koreans are held to a high standard.
Posts like this are the reason why there needs to be a mod note on top of this topic.
Once again, every progamer is judged on whether they're bringing EG (or any e-sports team) more money than they're paying them. It's called Return on Investment (ROI). This return is based off EG Brand Exposure and EG Sponsorship exposure, which can be judged in numerous ways, including tournament results.
They didn't think Puma was bringing in enough of a return, so they tried to negotiate a lower salary to reflect what he was bringing in for them. Puma said no, so they let him go. They didn't just kick him out for not producing results like people who post stuff like this seem to think.
He's still #12 in the tournament earnings, only other EG member higher is Stephano who played in way more tournaments.
What he's achieved in the past matters less than the results he's achieving now when negotiating a new contract, which reflect the state Puma is in in the present and what they can expect of him in future. He hasn't placed high in tournaments since March of 2012. He hasn't been producing many results in general. He can't speak English, he never streamed much, barely tweeted, was not part of any promotional team activities, and in all this time did not really make any visible effort to become better at speaking English like other fellow Koreans on foreign teams (MC, Polt, Crank, HerO, JYP, GanZi just to name a few) have.
As a result, the only thing he had to offer in brand/sponsorship exposure was game and tournament results. And when he hasn't been winning important games, such as in Korea's most prestigious team league, or placing high in tournaments in the past year, he wasn't generating enough brand and sponsor exposure to justify how much they were paying him. So, and I can't believe I'm repeating this again, they offered him a lower salary to better reflect his current state and the return on the investment they expected from him over course of the new contract period. He refused, and since they expected to lose money on their investment in Puma with his current salary, they had to let him go.
What about Demuslim, Machine, JYP, Suppy, iNcontrol, etc?
Is their performance top notch?
PuMa at least won a whole lot of tournaments for EG in the past. And to mods, this isn't a flame/troll whatever. This is sincere criticism as I think we all should be allowed to speak our minds. It's just that I don't think EG is that top team as they would like to claim they are. PuMa was their strongest player in my eyes, who won lots of tournaments. It's just that EG's decision is very inconsistent as they have worse performing players on their team.
Like, I have never understood why people buy the EG marketing to make it seem like they are the worlds best team. Just look at IM, they absolutely dominate everything. 8 GSL titles. Any tournament an IM player is, you know he will be in the top 3. Look at IEM CeBit, semi finals all IM players. Look at the IEM before that. SlayerS was a damn strong team back in the days. Startale and MVP being great ones as well. Not to mention all those new, scary-as-hell Pro League teams.
TBH, I even think Liquids roster is better, look at HerO and Taeja for example.
On March 15 2013 19:11 Protoss-Bah wrote: What about Demuslim, Machine, JYP, Suppy, iNcontrol, etc?
Is their performance top notch?
PuMa at least won a whole lot of tournaments for EG in the past. And to mods, this isn't a flame/troll whatever. It's just that I don't think EG is that top team as they would like to claim they are. PuMa was their strongest player in my eyes, who won lots of tournaments. It's just that EG's decision is very inconsistent as they have worse performing players on their team.
They tried to renegotiate his salary and in the end couldn't reach an agreement. The players who you named have different contracts and some of them have value to the them outside their actual tournament performances
On March 15 2013 16:07 {ToT}ColmA wrote: oh i am astonished, one of the better moves this team has done so far, maybe check out huk next lol
Chuck out their Code S Protoss? (You're the reason players shouldn't bother checking forum's ^.^)
HuK isn't in Code S. He got to Code S by getting a lucky up and down group and cheesing most of the games. He followed this up by falling straight out of Code S, and then straight out of Code S.
HuK has the potential, but I don't know what his practice is like and he does gimmicky strategies that aren't very solid.
But he did get to Code S. How many players manage that? If it was easy to just "cheese" through U&D why don't more foreigners manage it?
Foreigners that got seeded in the UnDs usually made it through. Unknown Underdog factor mostly I would assume.
Really sad for Puma, but who knows what he has planned now.
On March 15 2013 19:11 Protoss-Bah wrote: What about Demuslim, Machine, JYP, Suppy, iNcontrol, etc?
Is their performance top notch?
PuMa at least won a whole lot of tournaments for EG in the past. And to mods, this isn't a flame/troll whatever. It's just that I don't think EG is that top team as they would like to claim they are. PuMa was their strongest player in my eyes, who won lots of tournaments. It's just that EG's decision is very inconsistent as they have worse performing players on their team.
They are almost certainly also paying those other players a lot less than they were paying Puma. If your "star" in terms of salary isn't earning his keep, you don't get rid of the cheap people who aren't necessarily performing, you get rid of the expensive person who isn't performing.
The performance of the lower players has nothing to do with Puma. There is no inconsistency because Puma and the "others" are very different people in terms of classification. They are the lower paid general players, rather than the high paid star. You wouldn't see fans saying "get rid of other mediocre players" if Ronaldo or Messi were performing really poorly.
On March 15 2013 19:16 JustPassingBy wrote: Can't imagine why Puma would decline a "less salary, more traveling funds" kind of contract, that actually made alot of sense to me.
Yeah and living in a nice progaming house too. Oh well.
On March 15 2013 19:11 Protoss-Bah wrote: What about Demuslim, Machine, JYP, Suppy, iNcontrol, etc?
Is their performance top notch?
PuMa at least won a whole lot of tournaments for EG in the past. And to mods, this isn't a flame/troll whatever. It's just that I don't think EG is that top team as they would like to claim they are. PuMa was their strongest player in my eyes, who won lots of tournaments. It's just that EG's decision is very inconsistent as they have worse performing players on their team.
I think I'm gonna start copying and pasting now.
Once again, every progamer is judged on whether they're bringing EG (or any e-sports team) more money than they're paying them. It's called Return on Investment (ROI). This return is based off EG Brand Exposure and EG Sponsorship exposure, which can be judged in numerous ways, including tournament results.
They didn't think Puma was bringing in enough of a return, so they tried to negotiate a lower salary to reflect what he was bringing in for them. Puma said no, so they let him go. They didn't just kick him out for not producing results like people who post stuff like this seem to think.
In terms of your post, they keep those guys around because they feel those players are bringing in more money for EG than they're paying for them, and that doesn't necessarily have to be through tournament results. They didn't expect Puma to be able to bring a return on their investment, so they offered him a lower contract to better reflect what they thought he was bringing in to them. He refused, so they had to let him go.
Also, Stephano's won more money from tournaments than Puma has. So if you're judging based solely on tournament results, Stephano's their best player.
On March 15 2013 19:16 JustPassingBy wrote: Can't imagine why Puma would decline a "less salary, more traveling funds" kind of contract, that actually made alot of sense to me.
Maybe he wants to stay in Korea? We'll have to see what, assuming he gets one, his new team gets him doing, whether team leagues, Code A/S or foreign travel.
Just because it may make sense to us, his personal preference might be Korea.
On March 15 2013 16:07 {ToT}ColmA wrote: oh i am astonished, one of the better moves this team has done so far, maybe check out huk next lol
Chuck out their Code S Protoss? (You're the reason players shouldn't bother checking forum's ^.^)
HuK isn't in Code S. He got to Code S by getting a lucky up and down group and cheesing most of the games. He followed this up by falling straight out of Code S, and then straight out of Code S.
HuK has the potential, but I don't know what his practice is like and he does gimmicky strategies that aren't very solid.
But he did get to Code S. How many players manage that? If it was easy to just "cheese" through U&D why don't more foreigners manage it?
You inquiry (somewhat) answers itself:
"Why doesn't HuK just cheese and get code S again HUH?"
" He got to Code S by getting a lucky" --MtlGuitarist97
The cheese is his "luck strat" that clearly hasn't gotten him as lucky ever since..
So how much did he earn per month, like approx 4k $ or something? I assume Jaedong is the highest korean paid on EG and Stephano is the highest paid overall in their team. If Puma declined 2k $ a month then it would be pretty stupid imo
On March 15 2013 17:58 saltis wrote: I guess that is a warning signal for Huk to stop playing LOL too.
No cause he ain't Korean.
In sc2 only Koreans are held to a high standard.
Posts like this are the reason why there needs to be a mod note on top of this topic.
Once again, every progamer is judged on whether they're bringing EG (or any e-sports team) more money than they're paying them. It's called Return on Investment (ROI). This return is based off EG Brand Exposure and EG Sponsorship exposure, which can be judged in numerous ways, including tournament results.
They didn't think Puma was bringing in enough of a return, so they tried to negotiate a lower salary to reflect what he was bringing in for them. Puma said no, so they let him go. They didn't just kick him out for not producing results like people who post stuff like this seem to think.
He's still #12 in the tournament earnings, only other EG member higher is Stephano who played in way more tournaments.
What he's achieved in the past matters less than the results he's achieving now when negotiating a new contract, which reflect the state Puma is in in the present and what they can expect of him in future. He hasn't placed high in tournaments since March of 2012. He hasn't been producing many results in general. He can't speak English, he never streamed much, barely tweeted, was not part of any promotional team activities, and in all this time did not really make any visible effort to become better at speaking English like other fellow Koreans on foreign teams (MC, Polt, Crank, HerO, JYP, GanZi just to name a few) have.
As a result, the only thing he had to offer in brand/sponsorship exposure was game and tournament results. And when he hasn't been winning important games, such as in Korea's most prestigious team league, or placing high in tournaments in the past year, he wasn't generating enough brand and sponsor exposure to justify how much they were paying him. So, and I can't believe I'm repeating this again, they offered him a lower salary to better reflect his current state and the return on the investment they expected from him over course of the new contract period. He refused, and since they expected to lose money on their investment in Puma with his current salary, they had to let him go.
You are only proving my initial point... Koreans are held to a much higher standard compared to foreigners...
Highly achieved Korean player starting to win less? Ok take a big cut in your paycheck or leave the team... That's all this is...
It's not like anyone besides Stephano done well in EG lately and Puma most likely already makes less than most foreigners... hence why they say he's ''one of the highest paid Korean on our team''.
On March 15 2013 19:11 Protoss-Bah wrote: What about Demuslim, Machine, JYP, Suppy, iNcontrol, etc?
Is their performance top notch?
PuMa at least won a whole lot of tournaments for EG in the past. And to mods, this isn't a flame/troll whatever. It's just that I don't think EG is that top team as they would like to claim they are. PuMa was their strongest player in my eyes, who won lots of tournaments. It's just that EG's decision is very inconsistent as they have worse performing players on their team.
I really don't understand how people get these ideas.
If you want players to be judged solely on results, how do you do it anyway? Most of the people on TL would probably say the only tournament that really, REALLY proves you're the best of the best, is Code S. Not MLG, not IPL, etc.
This means that if you judge players only on their performance, players would really be best served by never going to a foreign event - trying to win Code S would be the ONLY worthwhile thing any player could do in a system whereby tournament results were the only "sell" they could make to their employers.
Of the hundreds of pro and semi-pro players out there, if you want them to be judged on their performance in tournaments only, do you want them to go live in a hole in korea where they do nothing but throw themselves at the Code A qualifiers over and over, no streams no interviews no nothing, until they break into the GSL? Of course not! That'd mean a terrible situation where you never got to see any of your favourite players on teams or on streams.
All the players you mention are bringing in a lot for EG. Demuslim, Machine, and iNcontroL have three of the most popular SC2 streams on twitch. JYP is still an excellent player and people follow his progress in tournaments - if as much to see if they're bearing witness to JYPvT as to see if he wins. As for Suppy, he's a personable community figure, and he's only on the team part time while he finishes his studies - Are you seriously suggesting Suppy should be held to the same standards as Jaedong and Stephano, given that EG are probably paying him a ton of nothing most of the time? (Not to mention he won CSL recently...)
On March 15 2013 19:11 Protoss-Bah wrote: What about Demuslim, Machine, JYP, Suppy, iNcontrol, etc?
Is their performance top notch?
PuMa at least won a whole lot of tournaments for EG in the past. And to mods, this isn't a flame/troll whatever. It's just that I don't think EG is that top team as they would like to claim they are. PuMa was their strongest player in my eyes, who won lots of tournaments. It's just that EG's decision is very inconsistent as they have worse performing players on their team.
All those guys probably make less than Puma.
Of the group, JYP and DeMuslim probably are the best paid.
DeMuslim is legitimately a great, underrated player, and one of their few Terrans. When you think about it, it would be weird to have a house in NA without a Terran in it. There was a time after his acquisition, before contracting Puma, that Demuslim was the best player on the team. Since then, he's proven himself to be quite a likeable and marketable personality. He was doing some really great casting during the EGMCL, and regularly draws big stream numbers.
Suppy is pretty much semi-pro and living on his own as he goes to school. I'm sure his contract is smaller, more affordable, and he posts good results and draws big stream numbers that give EG good value. I think he lead his school's team to victory in a college tourney, recently.
InControl has made a name for himself as a popular community figure. He participates non-stop as a guest, commentator and host on all kinds of shows, even weird ones. Even though he's not a great tournament player anymore, he gives EG and their sponsors incredible exposure.
Machine, like InControl, is an original member of the EG SC2 team since 2009. His contract probably sucks compared to everyone else on the team, but he's been a loyal, low-maintenance teammate since the beginning. As long as Machine stays at a GM level and doesn't start demanding piles of money, they'll probably never get rid of him.
And like others have said, I don't think it was a matter of Puma not being a good enough player to be on EG, it was more an issue of him being overpaid given his results. I think Huk's deal occurred around the same time, and I wouldn't be surprised if that contract is over-valued, too.
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Stephano's contract was in the $72,000 range. If Puma or Huk were making even more than that — and there were rumors of six-figure salaries circulating back then — than you can understand why EG cut Puma loose. EG realized they can get much better players for that kind of salary.
On March 15 2013 17:58 saltis wrote: I guess that is a warning signal for Huk to stop playing LOL too.
No cause he ain't Korean.
In sc2 only Koreans are held to a high standard.
Posts like this are the reason why there needs to be a mod note on top of this topic.
Once again, every progamer is judged on whether they're bringing EG (or any e-sports team) more money than they're paying them. It's called Return on Investment (ROI). This return is based off EG Brand Exposure and EG Sponsorship exposure, which can be judged in numerous ways, including tournament results.
They didn't think Puma was bringing in enough of a return, so they tried to negotiate a lower salary to reflect what he was bringing in for them. Puma said no, so they let him go. They didn't just kick him out for not producing results like people who post stuff like this seem to think.
He's still #12 in the tournament earnings, only other EG member higher is Stephano who played in way more tournaments.
What he's achieved in the past matters less than the results he's achieving now when negotiating a new contract, which reflect the state Puma is in in the present and what they can expect of him in future. He hasn't placed high in tournaments since March of 2012. He hasn't been producing many results in general. He can't speak English, he never streamed much, barely tweeted, was not part of any promotional team activities, and in all this time did not really make any visible effort to become better at speaking English like other fellow Koreans on foreign teams (MC, Polt, Crank, HerO, JYP, GanZi just to name a few) have.
As a result, the only thing he had to offer in brand/sponsorship exposure was game and tournament results. And when he hasn't been winning important games, such as in Korea's most prestigious team league, or placing high in tournaments in the past year, he wasn't generating enough brand and sponsor exposure to justify how much they were paying him. So, and I can't believe I'm repeating this again, they offered him a lower salary to better reflect his current state and the return on the investment they expected from him over course of the new contract period. He refused, and since they expected to lose money on their investment in Puma with his current salary, they had to let him go.
You are only proving my initial point... Koreans are held to a much higher standard compared to foreigners...
Highly achieved Korean player starting to win less? Ok take a big cut in your paycheck or leave the team... That's all this is...
It's not like anyone besides Stephano done well in EG lately and Puma most likely already makes less than most foreigners... hence why they say he's ''one of the highest paid Korean on our team''.
Of course Koreans are held to higher standards, the average Korean player is a lot less marketable than the average foreign player of similar skill. To expose the public to your sponsors you need to either win a lot or stream a lot and interact with fans. The EG foreigners do a very good job at making themselves and their sponsors visible. The Koreans not so much, partly due to the language barrier, partly due to the fact that Koreans tend to not show their personality as much.
On March 15 2013 17:58 saltis wrote: I guess that is a warning signal for Huk to stop playing LOL too.
No cause he ain't Korean.
In sc2 only Koreans are held to a high standard.
Posts like this are the reason why there needs to be a mod note on top of this topic.
Once again, every progamer is judged on whether they're bringing EG (or any e-sports team) more money than they're paying them. It's called Return on Investment (ROI). This return is based off EG Brand Exposure and EG Sponsorship exposure, which can be judged in numerous ways, including tournament results.
They didn't think Puma was bringing in enough of a return, so they tried to negotiate a lower salary to reflect what he was bringing in for them. Puma said no, so they let him go. They didn't just kick him out for not producing results like people who post stuff like this seem to think.
He's still #12 in the tournament earnings, only other EG member higher is Stephano who played in way more tournaments.
What he's achieved in the past matters less than the results he's achieving now when negotiating a new contract, which reflect the state Puma is in in the present and what they can expect of him in future. He hasn't placed high in tournaments since March of 2012. He hasn't been producing many results in general. He can't speak English, he never streamed much, barely tweeted, was not part of any promotional team activities, and in all this time did not really make any visible effort to become better at speaking English like other fellow Koreans on foreign teams (MC, Polt, Crank, HerO, JYP, GanZi just to name a few) have.
As a result, the only thing he had to offer in brand/sponsorship exposure was game and tournament results. And when he hasn't been winning important games, such as in Korea's most prestigious team league, or placing high in tournaments in the past year, he wasn't generating enough brand and sponsor exposure to justify how much they were paying him. So, and I can't believe I'm repeating this again, they offered him a lower salary to better reflect his current state and the return on the investment they expected from him over course of the new contract period. He refused, and since they expected to lose money on their investment in Puma with his current salary, they had to let him go.
You are only proving my initial point... Koreans are held to a much higher standard compared to foreigners...
Highly achieved Korean player starting to win less? Ok take a big cut in your paycheck or leave the team... That's all this is...
It's not like anyone besides Stephano done well in EG lately and Puma most likely already makes less than most foreigners... hence why they say the ''highest paid Korean on our team''.
They're held to the same standards as everyone else. EG is a business, as is EVERY E-sports team, and e-sports in general as a whole. And as a business, the only standard they care about is "Can this player bring us more money than we're paying them". And the primary way EG makes money is through sponsorships. And the way to bring an Return on Investment for those sponsorships is with exposure. Exposure can be achieved through numerous ways, and isn't solely dependent on tournament results.
2nd statement is wrong and more accurately would be: "Anyone on our team bringing us less money than they did when they first signed a contract and that contract's time is running out and it's time to negotiate a new contract? Ok, take a cut in your paycheck that more accurately reflects how much money we can expect for you to bring in during the period of the new contract through brand and sponsorship exposure, or leave the team."
If EG thought anyone on their team was asking for more in their new contract than what they expected them to bring in, they wouldn't re-sign them. They probably do offer lower contracts during renegotiation when the old contracts run out, but you never hear about pay cuts. Players can't say how much their salary is because they've signed a non-disclosure agreement, and you wont hear teams say it because it generates lower publicity. Foreigners probably do get pay cuts if EG feels they aren't bringing a return on their investment, because that's how business works.
Very impressed by EG's honesty in this announcement. And not just that, but the initiative they've shown in the last few days to make it in Korea. Releasing a player who's been on their roster for so long along with hiring such a high quality coach in Coach Lee really shows their dedication to making it in ProLeague.
With the spare money freed up by PuMa's release, I'm excited to see where they'll reallocate those funds; particularly what players they'll pick up, as they hinted towards deepening their roster. With that said, sad to see PuMa have to go, and it'll be strange to see him in non-EG colours. Best of luck to both of you.
On March 15 2013 19:11 Protoss-Bah wrote: What about Demuslim, Machine, JYP, Suppy, iNcontrol, etc?
Is their performance top notch?
PuMa at least won a whole lot of tournaments for EG in the past. And to mods, this isn't a flame/troll whatever. It's just that I don't think EG is that top team as they would like to claim they are. PuMa was their strongest player in my eyes, who won lots of tournaments. It's just that EG's decision is very inconsistent as they have worse performing players on their team.
All those guys probably make less than Puma.
Of the group, JYP and DeMuslim probably are the best paid.
DeMuslim is legitimately a great, underrated player, and one of their few Terrans. When you think about it, it would be weird to have a house in NA without a Terran in it. There was a time after his acquisition, before contracting Puma, that Demuslim was the best player on the team. Since then, he's proven himself as quite a likeable and marketable personality. He was doing some really great casting during the EGMCL, and regularly draws big stream numbers.
Suppy is pretty much semi-pro and living on his own as he goes to school. I'm sure his contract is smaller, more affordable, and he posts good results and draws big stream numbers that give EG good value. I think he lead his school's team to victory in a college tourney, recently.
InControl has made a name for himself as popular community figure. He participates non-stop as a guest, commentator and host on all kinds of shows, even weird ones. Even though he's not a great tournament player anymore, he gives EG and their sponsors incredible exposure.
Machine, like InControl, is an original member of the EG SC2 team since 2009. His contract probably sucks compared to everyone else on the team, but he's been a loyal, low-maintenance teammate since the beginning. As long as Machine stays at a GM level and doesn't start demanding piles of money, they'll probably never get rid of him.
And like others have said, I don't think it was a matter of Puma not being a good enough player to be on EG, it was more an issue of him being overpaid given his results. I think Huk's deal occurred around the same time, and I wouldn't be surprised if that contract is over-valued, too.
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Stephano's contract was in the $72,000 range. If Puma or Huk were making even more than that — and there were rumors of six-figure salaries circulating back then — than you can understand why EG cut Puma loose. EG realized they can get much better players for that kind of salary.
Everything you said makes absolutely sense, /thread maybe?
On March 15 2013 14:18 VVeForever wrote: There gonna release Huk, then get Naniwa
Well, that would be a diminishing return....
On a more serious note, best of luck to Puma, I hope he can find a new team, but this looks like a sense-able thing to do for both sides. If EG knows Puma is overpaid and they are trying to rebuild, then this seems like a reasonable thing to do, and I expect that after Puma realized that, he just wanted to leave to avoid further alienation in the future. I'm glad it worked out like this, and hope EG and Puma are too.
With the arrival of Coach park, and his post saying that they were going to rebuild, I wonder what they will do with this payroll.....
On March 15 2013 16:07 {ToT}ColmA wrote: oh i am astonished, one of the better moves this team has done so far, maybe check out huk next lol
Chuck out their Code S Protoss? (You're the reason players shouldn't bother checking forum's ^.^)
HuK isn't in Code S. He got to Code S by getting a lucky up and down group and cheesing most of the games. He followed this up by falling straight out of Code S, and then straight out of Code S.
HuK has the potential, but I don't know what his practice is like and he does gimmicky strategies that aren't very solid.
But he did get to Code S. How many players manage that? If it was easy to just "cheese" through U&D why don't more foreigners manage it?
Not many attempted because it cost an arm to go to Korea for few months. In fact many of those who attempted managed to go to code S, Naniwa, Stephano, Jinro, Idra, thorzain (not sure on this one)
On March 15 2013 17:58 saltis wrote: I guess that is a warning signal for Huk to stop playing LOL too.
No cause he ain't Korean.
In sc2 only Koreans are held to a high standard.
Posts like this are the reason why there needs to be a mod note on top of this topic.
Once again, every progamer is judged on whether they're bringing EG (or any e-sports team) more money than they're paying them. It's called Return on Investment (ROI). This return is based off EG Brand Exposure and EG Sponsorship exposure, which can be judged in numerous ways, including tournament results.
They didn't think Puma was bringing in enough of a return, so they tried to negotiate a lower salary to reflect what he was bringing in for them. Puma said no, so they let him go. They didn't just kick him out for not producing results like people who post stuff like this seem to think.
He's still #12 in the tournament earnings, only other EG member higher is Stephano who played in way more tournaments.
What he's achieved in the past matters less than the results he's achieving now when negotiating a new contract, which reflect the state Puma is in in the present and what they can expect of him in future. He hasn't placed high in tournaments since March of 2012. He hasn't been producing many results in general. He can't speak English, he never streamed much, barely tweeted, was not part of any promotional team activities, and in all this time did not really make any visible effort to become better at speaking English like other fellow Koreans on foreign teams (MC, Polt, Crank, HerO, JYP, GanZi just to name a few) have.
As a result, the only thing he had to offer in brand/sponsorship exposure was game and tournament results. And when he hasn't been winning important games, such as in Korea's most prestigious team league, or placing high in tournaments in the past year, he wasn't generating enough brand and sponsor exposure to justify how much they were paying him. So, and I can't believe I'm repeating this again, they offered him a lower salary to better reflect his current state and the return on the investment they expected from him over course of the new contract period. He refused, and since they expected to lose money on their investment in Puma with his current salary, they had to let him go.
You are only proving my initial point... Koreans are held to a much higher standard compared to foreigners...
Highly achieved Korean player starting to win less? Ok take a big cut in your paycheck or leave the team... That's all this is...
It's not like anyone besides Stephano done well in EG lately and Puma most likely already makes less than most foreigners... hence why they say he's ''one of the highest paid Korean on our team''.
Of course Koreans are held to higher standards, the average Korean player is a lot less marketable than the average foreign player of similar skill. To expose the public to your sponsors you need to either win a lot or stream a lot and interact with fans. The EG foreigners do a very good job at making themselves and their sponsors visible. The Koreans not so much, partly due to the language barrier, partly due to the fact that Koreans tend to not show their personality as much.
Yes ... I can barely remember seeing Puma stream games, let alone mention sponsors or exhibit any kind of personality. Already, I've seen Jaedong's stream up longer and more often than Puma's.
I think Huk is eventually going to get a slap on the wrist, too. I don't think EG is going to tolerate players that get paid very well, don't post results AND don't proactively promote their sponsors or increase their exposure.
People can complain all they want about IdrA or InControl or Demuslim but those guys plug Raidcall and show off their Razer wares constantly. They're doing the dirty work of pimping sponsors while players in Korea are underperforming and acting like delicate, mute snowflakes.
Sad, but also good news. Now EG has more money to get more fresh blood to Proleague, what i think is really needed.
Oh yeah, those who whine about InControl and Machine, have you ever thought that Machine's salary is most likely nothing compared to Pumas? Not to mention that he does commercials, visits expos, pays rent and whatnot in the team house, so in the end Machine is pretty valuable to EG with little expense. Just as InControl being one of the most valuable players/members in EG, even though his results aren't no where near decent. In EG's case, it's not about the results why they keep having few of their players, it's about business.
On March 15 2013 17:58 saltis wrote: I guess that is a warning signal for Huk to stop playing LOL too.
No cause he ain't Korean.
In sc2 only Koreans are held to a high standard.
Posts like this are the reason why there needs to be a mod note on top of this topic.
Once again, every progamer is judged on whether they're bringing EG (or any e-sports team) more money than they're paying them. It's called Return on Investment (ROI). This return is based off EG Brand Exposure and EG Sponsorship exposure, which can be judged in numerous ways, including tournament results.
They didn't think Puma was bringing in enough of a return, so they tried to negotiate a lower salary to reflect what he was bringing in for them. Puma said no, so they let him go. They didn't just kick him out for not producing results like people who post stuff like this seem to think.
He's still #12 in the tournament earnings, only other EG member higher is Stephano who played in way more tournaments.
What he's achieved in the past matters less than the results he's achieving now when negotiating a new contract, which reflect the state Puma is in in the present and what they can expect of him in future. He hasn't placed high in tournaments since March of 2012. He hasn't been producing many results in general. He can't speak English, he never streamed much, barely tweeted, was not part of any promotional team activities, and in all this time did not really make any visible effort to become better at speaking English like other fellow Koreans on foreign teams (MC, Polt, Crank, HerO, JYP, GanZi just to name a few) have.
As a result, the only thing he had to offer in brand/sponsorship exposure was game and tournament results. And when he hasn't been winning important games, such as in Korea's most prestigious team league, or placing high in tournaments in the past year, he wasn't generating enough brand and sponsor exposure to justify how much they were paying him. So, and I can't believe I'm repeating this again, they offered him a lower salary to better reflect his current state and the return on the investment they expected from him over course of the new contract period. He refused, and since they expected to lose money on their investment in Puma with his current salary, they had to let him go.
You are only proving my initial point... Koreans are held to a much higher standard compared to foreigners...
Highly achieved Korean player starting to win less? Ok take a big cut in your paycheck or leave the team... That's all this is...
It's not like anyone besides Stephano done well in EG lately and Puma most likely already makes less than most foreigners... hence why they say he's ''one of the highest paid Korean on our team''.
Of course Koreans are held to higher standards, the average Korean player is a lot less marketable than the average foreign player of similar skill. To expose the public to your sponsors you need to either win a lot or stream a lot and interact with fans. The EG foreigners do a very good job at making themselves and their sponsors visible. The Koreans not so much, partly due to the language barrier, partly due to the fact that Koreans tend to not show their personality as much.
Ummm ... I can barely remember seeing Puma stream games, let alone mention sponsors or exhibit any kind of personality. Already, I've seen Jaedong's stream up longer and more often than Puma's.
I think Huk is eventually going to get a slap on the wrist, too. I don't think EG is going to tolerate players that get paid very well, don't post results AND don't proactively promote their sponsors or increase their exposure.
People can complain all they want about IdrA or InControl or Demuslim but those guys plug Raidcall and show off their Razer wares constantly. They're doing the dirty work of pimping sponsors while players in Korea are underperforming and acting like delicate, mute snowflakes.
And the important thing is, even if Huk or ANY OTHER PLAYER does get a "slap on the wrist" in the form of a lower salary, which probably does happen or has happened in the past, you wont hear about it because that's bad publicity for EG, and the players are NDA'd from revealing their salary or specifications about contract negotiations.
The only time you would hear about a lowered salary is if they leave the team.
I saw this comming from the first week he was in Pro league, Puma has been stagnent in his play. Its 1-1-1 or Bust anything over 3 base and Puma crumbles. Hopefully he will take a step back and rework his game and try and improve. I alway did wonder why he never tried to enter code A everytime the qualifiers came around since he was only at a few tournaments.
Hopefully this is also a wake up for the rest of EG.
People seem to have the wrong idea of e-sports teams. The primary goal isn't to win everything. The primary goal is to make money. And the primary way teams make money and are able to pay their players isn't through splitting tournament winnings. Right now, at least, it's by sponsorships. Sponsors pay teams money to give exposure for them. As such, winning or placing high in tournaments is simply a means to an end, as that helps create exposure for their sponsorships. But exposure can be done in numerous ways. Going on e-sports shows, interacting with fans, holding community events, or simply getting views through streaming or all generates publicity and exposure. And if enough new people buy the sponsor's products as a result of the sponsorship, the sponsor is more likely to make another sponsorship with them for the same or greater amount. The latter can be possible if they feel exposure from that team is important, and they don't want to lose that team to a competitor who might offer the team more money for a sponsorship deal.
And if sponsors don't feel like they got a return on their investment, they'll either offer the team a lower amount or just drop them completely. Again, that's just business.
The same applies for e-sports teams. The way they generate exposure exposure for their sponsors is through players. They pay the players according to how much exposure they feel they'll get from them. This can be done with more than just tournament results, as was stated before. And if they feel like the players aren't giving them a return on their investment, then when their contract runs out, they'll either offer them a lower contract or drop them.
Sad to see it happen but the whole thing seems reasonable. Hopefully they can put the freed up money to good use. Good luck to finding a new team PuMa. Sometimes a new team is all a player needs for a fresh start and to work their way back up. Just look at BBoongBBoong on AZUBU
On March 15 2013 20:01 Shellshock1122 wrote: Sad to see it happen but the whole thing seems reasonable. Hopefully they can put the freed up money to good use. Good luck to finding a new team PuMa. Sometimes a new team is all a player needs for a fresh start and to work their way back up. Just look at BBoongBBoong on AZUBU
B4 was one of the main players getting wins for Prime even before his departure. I'd probably say he brought more wins than Byun, and was right under Creator and MKP. He probably left because Prime wasn't giving him enough money, if anything at all.
On March 15 2013 20:01 Shellshock1122 wrote: Sad to see it happen but the whole thing seems reasonable. Hopefully they can put the freed up money to good use. Good luck to finding a new team PuMa. Sometimes a new team is all a player needs for a fresh start and to work their way back up. Just look at BBoongBBoong on AZUBU
B4 was one of the main players getting wins for Prime even before his departure. I'd probably say he brought more wins than Byun, and was right under Creator and MKP. He probably left because Prime wasn't giving him enough money, if anything at all.
His individual performance was dropping and near the end he wasnt doing as well in team league. He was definitely doing well when they won the GSTL and all that but he was on the down slope for a while
On March 15 2013 20:01 Shellshock1122 wrote: Sad to see it happen but the whole thing seems reasonable. Hopefully they can put the freed up money to good use. Good luck to finding a new team PuMa. Sometimes a new team is all a player needs for a fresh start and to work their way back up. Just look at BBoongBBoong on AZUBU
B4 was one of the main players getting wins for Prime even before his departure. I'd probably say he brought more wins than Byun, and was right under Creator and MKP. He probably left because Prime wasn't giving him enough money, if anything at all.
I'd be surprised if B4s move was to do with money. MJ Team, who he moved to, was started up by some former Prime staff. Seems to me more likely he'd have gone to them because of who they were, not what they were paying. (Of course, they might have offered him a better deal too, but I don't reckon it'd be a lifechanging difference)
On March 15 2013 20:03 Technique wrote: If it's all about sponsors, why even get any Koreans/Europeans on a American based team?
Right... because then EG would never win anything... see how far the fun talk on podcasts brings them then...
It IS all about the sponsors because sponsors are what make them money. Tournament results is simply part of the package and is just one way of generating sponsorship exposure. They do care about tournament results, but that's not the only thing they use to judge how much a player is worth in generating sponsorship exposure. Not all players are worth the same, and don't forget, not all players on EG get paid the same amount.
On March 15 2013 20:01 Shellshock1122 wrote: Sad to see it happen but the whole thing seems reasonable. Hopefully they can put the freed up money to good use. Good luck to finding a new team PuMa. Sometimes a new team is all a player needs for a fresh start and to work their way back up. Just look at BBoongBBoong on AZUBU
B4 was one of the main players getting wins for Prime even before his departure. I'd probably say he brought more wins than Byun, and was right under Creator and MKP. He probably left because Prime wasn't giving him enough money, if anything at all.
His individual performance was dropping and near the end he wasnt doing as well in team league. He was definitely doing well when they won the GSTL and all that but he was on the down slope for a while
Who would you say was better than B4, though, during his departure besides Creator and MKP?
Byun? Maru? I'd still say B4 was better than them during his departure, but I could be wrong as memory isn't 100% reliable. I'd have to check TLPD and Liquidpedia for GSL and GSTL standings but it's too late and I'm tired right now.
On March 15 2013 20:03 Technique wrote: If it's all about sponsors, why even get any Koreans/Europeans on a American based team?
Right... because then EG would never win anything... see how far the fun talk on podcasts brings them then...
It IS all about the sponsors because sponsors are what make them money. Tournament results is simply part of the package and is just one way of generating sponsorship exposure. They do care about tournament results, but that's not the only thing they use to judge how much a player is worth in generating sponsorship exposure. Not all players are worth the same, and don't forget, not all players on EG get paid the same amount.
On March 15 2013 20:01 Shellshock1122 wrote: Sad to see it happen but the whole thing seems reasonable. Hopefully they can put the freed up money to good use. Good luck to finding a new team PuMa. Sometimes a new team is all a player needs for a fresh start and to work their way back up. Just look at BBoongBBoong on AZUBU
B4 was one of the main players getting wins for Prime even before his departure. I'd probably say he brought more wins than Byun, and was right under Creator and MKP. He probably left because Prime wasn't giving him enough money, if anything at all.
His individual performance was dropping and near the end he wasnt doing as well in team league. He was definitely doing well when they won the GSTL and all that but he was on the down slope for a while
Who would you say was better than B4, though, besides Creator and MKP?
Byun?
To be fair, I might have said that. ByuN is really really good :D
Good, well explained statement regarding the situation... i gotta say EG, BIG Cudos (from me atleast) It's nice that you are just honest about the whole thing.
The statement in itself is obviously pretty sad. Hope Puma finds a new home ('m sure he will)
On March 15 2013 20:14 SmoKim wrote: Good, well explained statement regarding the situation... i gotta say EG, BIG Cudos (from me atleast) It's nice that you are just honest about the whole thing.
The statement in itself is obviously pretty sad. Hope Puma finds a new home ('m sure he will)
What honesty? The statement says absolutely nothing really... for all we know they asked him to swallow a 90% pay cut to make him leave...
On March 15 2013 20:14 SmoKim wrote: Good, well explained statement regarding the situation... i gotta say EG, BIG Cudos (from me atleast) It's nice that you are just honest about the whole thing.
The statement in itself is obviously pretty sad. Hope Puma finds a new home ('m sure he will)
What honesty? The statement says absolutely nothing really... for all we know they asked him to swallow a 90% pay cut to make him leave...
Did you get that number out from your ass or do you have reliable sources? This part is as honest as it can be right now, since we don't know anything else, and it does sound very reasonable.
PuMa was one of our highest-paid Korean players, and we felt that to truly improve our performance in Proleague, we needed to get more results for our investment. We view Ho Joon as a member of our family, and we didn’t want to simply remove him from our team – in fact, we wanted to, and tried to, renegotiate his contract in a way that would make more sense for both sides (perhaps by balancing a decrease in salary with less Proleague participation and more non-Korean event attendance), but ultimately this approach was not desirable to him, and both of us agreed that it would be best to release him.
On March 15 2013 20:14 SmoKim wrote: Good, well explained statement regarding the situation... i gotta say EG, BIG Cudos (from me atleast) It's nice that you are just honest about the whole thing.
The statement in itself is obviously pretty sad. Hope Puma finds a new home ('m sure he will)
What honesty? The statement says absolutely nothing really... for all we know they asked him to swallow a 90% pay cut to make him leave...
Point out a quote by them you feel is expressly dishonest, and provide evidence why you feel that way.
Or for all we know they asked him to take a 10% pay cut, or some other completely reasonable number. You can't really make any kind of argument from suppositions like this. Nobody can assume one thing or another.
Just keep in mind, EG has no incentive from a business perspective to "make someone leave" out of simple spite.
On March 15 2013 14:18 ILouieI wrote: i'd pick him over incontrol
me to incontrol is probably riding dicks hard to stay on the team
god your an idiot. The role of Incontrol and probably Idra as well is not to be a star player but to provide exposure. Personally I think that Incontrol is one of EG's most valuable members.
I recall it was pretty weird to see Puma join EG in the first place. He was on top of the game back then, quite a candidate to win GSL. I was wondering why he would throw that away for ... you know EG is not exactly known for talent development. But now I see the picture:
PuMa was one of our highest-paid Korean players
I imagine he's got some bucks out of it. GL to him getting back into the competition.
On March 15 2013 14:18 ILouieI wrote: i'd pick him over incontrol
me to incontrol is probably riding dicks hard to stay on the team
god your an idiot. The role of Incontrol and probably Idra as well is not to be a star player but to provide exposure. Personally I think that Incontrol is one of EG's most valuable members.
And he probably is. Being on a weekly e-sports show (and other shows) that is one of the most watched out there, doing commercials, streaming with decent numbers from time to time (just like Idra), having big twitter following as well as him being active on Twitter. (Re-tweeting all the sponsor related tweets, etc) and in my opinion most importantly: he is giving EG even more exposure as a caster. Hell, guy has MLG gig this upcoming weekend. That is pretty fucking big.
The goal of a company is to make money after all, so when Puma was too much cost without enough beenefit they had to cut back. This truth is sad, but needed for sustainable esports business. HUGE kudos to EG for telling it to us straight with a heartfelt, no bs statement.
On March 15 2013 14:18 ILouieI wrote: i'd pick him over incontrol
me to incontrol is probably riding dicks hard to stay on the team
god your an idiot. The role of Incontrol and probably Idra as well is not to be a star player but to provide exposure. Personally I think that Incontrol is one of EG's most valuable members.
And he probably is. Being on a weekly e-sports show (and other shows) that is one of the most watched out there, doing commercials, streaming with decent numbers from time to time (just like Idra), having big twitter following as well as him being active on Twitter. (Re-tweeting all the sponsor related tweets, etc) and in my opinion most importantly: he is giving EG even more exposure as a caster. Hell, guy has MLG gig this upcoming weekend. That is pretty fucking big.
Yes but then you also got your answer why foreigners and especially Americans will never be able to compete with Koreans.
And imo that is bad, at the end of the day this is still a competitive game... if i want to watch a funny guy i'll watch one of the many great comedians out there.
On March 15 2013 14:18 ILouieI wrote: i'd pick him over incontrol
me to incontrol is probably riding dicks hard to stay on the team
god your an idiot. The role of Incontrol and probably Idra as well is not to be a star player but to provide exposure. Personally I think that Incontrol is one of EG's most valuable members.
Yeah, Incontrol is valuable for reasons outside of his playing ability. Same with Machine, though to a lesser extent. I seriously doubt that Incontrol and Machine get paid the same amount of money as the amazing players that EG picks up to play for them, so I seriously doubt that it's an issue.
As for Huk and Idra, I imagine we'll see if they stay with the team or not. If they do then they likely will have accepted any contract renegotiations that EG threw at them, and we, the humble fans, can assume that this means that EG's salary cuts were reasonable.
It is utterly unbelievable that some people are criticising this with "well why hasn't Idra/Incontrol/HuK/Machine/the whole EG team been kicked for results then?"
Let me give you an analogy. Probably a terrible one but meh:
You own a company (team) that makes boxes (produces results). You have a group of people (players) who mainly make good quality boxes (produce good results) and you have a group of people (players) who mainly advertise your company(stream/develop fanbase/cast/etc, public interactions). Some do some of both.
Now you have a star box maker who is paid more than anyone else. For a year he makes lots of really, really good boxes which gets people (viewers/fans) interested in your company and your boxes. Other staff in your company don't produce as good boxes or as many but they either get paid less or they make up for it in other ways by attracting custom, talking to people and salesmanship; they get people talking about your company. He gets paid more than many of your other staff specifically because of his awesome boxes. Some of your other staff get paid almost as much (or as much) because they're really, really good at attracting buyers for your boxes even if their own boxes aren't as good as his. They make up for it in other ways.
However after a while your star boxmaker falls off a bit. And he's not producing as good boxes or as many anymore. He can't compete with rival box-making companies to produce the very best boxes. You're still getting plenty of orders but your star boxmaker isn't attracting increased custom with his super-quality boxes anymore. So when his contract comes up you try to renegotiate to pay him less since his boxes aren't significantly better than everyone else's now. He refuses and leaves.
Now just because he was your best boxmaker and he left because you wouldn't pay him as much anymore doesn't invalidate the work of other people who never produced as good boxes as he did. They may never be the best boxmaker in the world, but as long as they're good at the advertising part of their job you can afford to keep them for their own unique contribution to the company.
In this case PuMa is your "star boxmaker" and someone like Incontrol would be your lead "advertising guy". PuMa's value was all about results and when his results (boxes...) started getting worse then there was no reason to be paying him the same amount. Incontrol on the other hand is pretty unlikely to win GSL anytime soon, but he essentially represents the quintessential showperson and personality in the SC2 scene; so if he doesn't place top three every tournament it doesn't matter, since his value is measured differently.
And I think I wrote the word "box" there so many times its practically lost all meaning for me. >_>
On March 15 2013 14:18 ILouieI wrote: i'd pick him over incontrol
me to incontrol is probably riding dicks hard to stay on the team
god your an idiot. The role of Incontrol and probably Idra as well is not to be a star player but to provide exposure. Personally I think that Incontrol is one of EG's most valuable members.
And he probably is. Being on a weekly e-sports show (and other shows) that is one of the most watched out there, doing commercials, streaming with decent numbers from time to time (just like Idra), having big twitter following as well as him being active on Twitter. (Re-tweeting all the sponsor related tweets, etc) and in my opinion most importantly: he is giving EG even more exposure as a caster. Hell, guy has MLG gig this upcoming weekend. That is pretty fucking big.
Yes but then you also got your answer why foreigners and especially Americans will never be able to compete with Koreans.
And imo that is bad, at the end of the day this is still a competitive game... if i want to watch a funny guy i'll watch one of the many great comedians out there.
Sure, but i feel like the biggest motivation dropper in west is the money from salaries. Just look at the players who are receiving a huge salary. I'm sure it also affects Koreans (such as Puma maybe?)
Anyway, i don't take Incontrol as a comedian. I take him as a person who has the same interests as many others watching him. He knows the scene, he knows about the game and casts well and as you hinted, he is also funny. But being funny isn't why i am watching him/shows he is in, neither should you tbh.
On March 15 2013 17:58 saltis wrote: I guess that is a warning signal for Huk to stop playing LOL too.
No cause he ain't Korean.
In sc2 only Koreans are held to a high standard.
Posts like this are the reason why there needs to be a mod note on top of this topic.
Once again, every progamer is judged on whether they're bringing EG (or any e-sports team) more money than they're paying them. It's called Return on Investment (ROI). This return is based off EG Brand Exposure and EG Sponsorship exposure, which can be judged in numerous ways, including tournament results.
They didn't think Puma was bringing in enough of a return, so they tried to negotiate a lower salary to reflect what he was bringing in for them. Puma said no, so they let him go. They didn't just kick him out for not producing results like people who post stuff like this seem to think.
He's still #12 in the tournament earnings, only other EG member higher is Stephano who played in way more tournaments.
What he's achieved in the past matters less than the results he's achieving now when negotiating a new contract, which reflect the state Puma is in in the present and what they can expect of him in future. He hasn't placed high in tournaments since March of 2012. He hasn't been producing many results in general. He can't speak English, he never streamed much, barely tweeted, was not part of any promotional team activities, and in all this time did not really make any visible effort to become better at speaking English like other fellow Koreans on foreign teams (MC, Polt, Crank, HerO, JYP, GanZi just to name a few) have.
As a result, the only thing he had to offer in brand/sponsorship exposure was game and tournament results. And when he hasn't been winning important games, such as in Korea's most prestigious team league, or placing high in tournaments in the past year, he wasn't generating enough brand and sponsor exposure to justify how much they were paying him. So, and I can't believe I'm repeating this again, they offered him a lower salary to better reflect his current state and the return on the investment they expected from him over course of the new contract period. He refused, and since they expected to lose money on their investment in Puma with his current salary, they had to let him go.
You are only proving my initial point... Koreans are held to a much higher standard compared to foreigners...
Highly achieved Korean player starting to win less? Ok take a big cut in your paycheck or leave the team... That's all this is...
It's not like anyone besides Stephano done well in EG lately and Puma most likely already makes less than most foreigners... hence why they say he's ''one of the highest paid Korean on our team''.
Of course Koreans are held to higher standards, the average Korean player is a lot less marketable than the average foreign player of similar skill. To expose the public to your sponsors you need to either win a lot or stream a lot and interact with fans. The EG foreigners do a very good job at making themselves and their sponsors visible. The Koreans not so much, partly due to the language barrier, partly due to the fact that Koreans tend to not show their personality as much.
Ummm ... I can barely remember seeing Puma stream games, let alone mention sponsors or exhibit any kind of personality. Already, I've seen Jaedong's stream up longer and more often than Puma's.
I think Huk is eventually going to get a slap on the wrist, too. I don't think EG is going to tolerate players that get paid very well, don't post results AND don't proactively promote their sponsors or increase their exposure.
People can complain all they want about IdrA or InControl or Demuslim but those guys plug Raidcall and show off their Razer wares constantly. They're doing the dirty work of pimping sponsors while players in Korea are underperforming and acting like delicate, mute snowflakes.
And the important thing is, even if Huk or ANY OTHER PLAYER does get a "slap on the wrist" in the form of a lower salary, which probably does happen or has happened in the past, you wont hear about it because that's bad publicity for EG, and the players are NDA'd from revealing their salary or specifications about contract negotiations.
The only time you would hear about a lowered salary is if they leave the team.
Why should the salary of players be public information exactly?
Fuck Sad but he had it coming. Really sorry to hear but I wish him the best of luck with his next team if he decides to stay with SC2. Easily one of my favorite players, it's been rough watching the past season of proleague wanting him to excel so much.
EG/TL needs a Terran if they want to really have solid success in proleague though. This is just a fact, they're so P/Z heavy, it's very easy to snipe them as they're sent out. With Taeja's wrists cutting into his practice and PuMa now gone, ThorZaIN and DeMusliM at home, and honestly on the same level yet, I'm interested to see who they pick up.
On March 15 2013 16:07 {ToT}ColmA wrote: oh i am astonished, one of the better moves this team has done so far, maybe check out huk next lol
Chuck out their Code S Protoss? (You're the reason players shouldn't bother checking forum's ^.^)
HuK isn't in Code S. He got to Code S by getting a lucky up and down group and cheesing most of the games. He followed this up by falling straight out of Code S, and then straight out of Code S.
HuK has the potential, but I don't know what his practice is like and he does gimmicky strategies that aren't very solid.
But he did get to Code S. How many players manage that? If it was easy to just "cheese" through U&D why don't more foreigners manage it?
Foreigners that got seeded in the UnDs usually made it through. Unknown Underdog factor mostly I would assume.
On March 15 2013 14:18 ILouieI wrote: i'd pick him over incontrol
me to incontrol is probably riding dicks hard to stay on the team
LOL I feel sad this made me laugh...
GL to puma in finding a team, if you don't perform all that well AND don't offer much for the team as a whole (like Incontrol does for instance) they will take action sooner or later. Reasonable move.
On March 15 2013 17:58 saltis wrote: I guess that is a warning signal for Huk to stop playing LOL too.
No cause he ain't Korean.
In sc2 only Koreans are held to a high standard.
Posts like this are the reason why there needs to be a mod note on top of this topic.
Once again, every progamer is judged on whether they're bringing EG (or any e-sports team) more money than they're paying them. It's called Return on Investment (ROI). This return is based off EG Brand Exposure and EG Sponsorship exposure, which can be judged in numerous ways, including tournament results.
They didn't think Puma was bringing in enough of a return, so they tried to negotiate a lower salary to reflect what he was bringing in for them. Puma said no, so they let him go. They didn't just kick him out for not producing results like people who post stuff like this seem to think.
He's still #12 in the tournament earnings, only other EG member higher is Stephano who played in way more tournaments.
What he's achieved in the past matters less than the results he's achieving now when negotiating a new contract, which reflect the state Puma is in in the present and what they can expect of him in future. He hasn't placed high in tournaments since March of 2012. He hasn't been producing many results in general. He can't speak English, he never streamed much, barely tweeted, was not part of any promotional team activities, and in all this time did not really make any visible effort to become better at speaking English like other fellow Koreans on foreign teams (MC, Polt, Crank, HerO, JYP, GanZi just to name a few) have.
As a result, the only thing he had to offer in brand/sponsorship exposure was game and tournament results. And when he hasn't been winning important games, such as in Korea's most prestigious team league, or placing high in tournaments in the past year, he wasn't generating enough brand and sponsor exposure to justify how much they were paying him. So, and I can't believe I'm repeating this again, they offered him a lower salary to better reflect his current state and the return on the investment they expected from him over course of the new contract period. He refused, and since they expected to lose money on their investment in Puma with his current salary, they had to let him go.
You are only proving my initial point... Koreans are held to a much higher standard compared to foreigners...
Highly achieved Korean player starting to win less? Ok take a big cut in your paycheck or leave the team... That's all this is...
It's not like anyone besides Stephano done well in EG lately and Puma most likely already makes less than most foreigners... hence why they say he's ''one of the highest paid Korean on our team''.
Of course Koreans are held to higher standards, the average Korean player is a lot less marketable than the average foreign player of similar skill. To expose the public to your sponsors you need to either win a lot or stream a lot and interact with fans. The EG foreigners do a very good job at making themselves and their sponsors visible. The Koreans not so much, partly due to the language barrier, partly due to the fact that Koreans tend to not show their personality as much.
Ummm ... I can barely remember seeing Puma stream games, let alone mention sponsors or exhibit any kind of personality. Already, I've seen Jaedong's stream up longer and more often than Puma's.
I think Huk is eventually going to get a slap on the wrist, too. I don't think EG is going to tolerate players that get paid very well, don't post results AND don't proactively promote their sponsors or increase their exposure.
People can complain all they want about IdrA or InControl or Demuslim but those guys plug Raidcall and show off their Razer wares constantly. They're doing the dirty work of pimping sponsors while players in Korea are underperforming and acting like delicate, mute snowflakes.
And the important thing is, even if Huk or ANY OTHER PLAYER does get a "slap on the wrist" in the form of a lower salary, which probably does happen or has happened in the past, you wont hear about it because that's bad publicity for EG, and the players are NDA'd from revealing their salary or specifications about contract negotiations.
The only time you would hear about a lowered salary is if they leave the team.
Why should the salary of players be public information exactly?
Never said they should. I am AGREEING with you, I'm just trying to debunk the detractors who try complain about how supposedly nobody else on EG ever gets a paycut. Just letting those guys know that you'll never find out about a pay cut and that they probably do happen when necessary, we just don't hear about it.
On March 15 2013 18:27 Technique wrote: [quote] No cause he ain't Korean.
In sc2 only Koreans are held to a high standard.
Posts like this are the reason why there needs to be a mod note on top of this topic.
Once again, every progamer is judged on whether they're bringing EG (or any e-sports team) more money than they're paying them. It's called Return on Investment (ROI). This return is based off EG Brand Exposure and EG Sponsorship exposure, which can be judged in numerous ways, including tournament results.
They didn't think Puma was bringing in enough of a return, so they tried to negotiate a lower salary to reflect what he was bringing in for them. Puma said no, so they let him go. They didn't just kick him out for not producing results like people who post stuff like this seem to think.
He's still #12 in the tournament earnings, only other EG member higher is Stephano who played in way more tournaments.
What he's achieved in the past matters less than the results he's achieving now when negotiating a new contract, which reflect the state Puma is in in the present and what they can expect of him in future. He hasn't placed high in tournaments since March of 2012. He hasn't been producing many results in general. He can't speak English, he never streamed much, barely tweeted, was not part of any promotional team activities, and in all this time did not really make any visible effort to become better at speaking English like other fellow Koreans on foreign teams (MC, Polt, Crank, HerO, JYP, GanZi just to name a few) have.
As a result, the only thing he had to offer in brand/sponsorship exposure was game and tournament results. And when he hasn't been winning important games, such as in Korea's most prestigious team league, or placing high in tournaments in the past year, he wasn't generating enough brand and sponsor exposure to justify how much they were paying him. So, and I can't believe I'm repeating this again, they offered him a lower salary to better reflect his current state and the return on the investment they expected from him over course of the new contract period. He refused, and since they expected to lose money on their investment in Puma with his current salary, they had to let him go.
You are only proving my initial point... Koreans are held to a much higher standard compared to foreigners...
Highly achieved Korean player starting to win less? Ok take a big cut in your paycheck or leave the team... That's all this is...
It's not like anyone besides Stephano done well in EG lately and Puma most likely already makes less than most foreigners... hence why they say he's ''one of the highest paid Korean on our team''.
Of course Koreans are held to higher standards, the average Korean player is a lot less marketable than the average foreign player of similar skill. To expose the public to your sponsors you need to either win a lot or stream a lot and interact with fans. The EG foreigners do a very good job at making themselves and their sponsors visible. The Koreans not so much, partly due to the language barrier, partly due to the fact that Koreans tend to not show their personality as much.
Ummm ... I can barely remember seeing Puma stream games, let alone mention sponsors or exhibit any kind of personality. Already, I've seen Jaedong's stream up longer and more often than Puma's.
I think Huk is eventually going to get a slap on the wrist, too. I don't think EG is going to tolerate players that get paid very well, don't post results AND don't proactively promote their sponsors or increase their exposure.
People can complain all they want about IdrA or InControl or Demuslim but those guys plug Raidcall and show off their Razer wares constantly. They're doing the dirty work of pimping sponsors while players in Korea are underperforming and acting like delicate, mute snowflakes.
And the important thing is, even if Huk or ANY OTHER PLAYER does get a "slap on the wrist" in the form of a lower salary, which probably does happen or has happened in the past, you wont hear about it because that's bad publicity for EG, and the players are NDA'd from revealing their salary or specifications about contract negotiations.
The only time you would hear about a lowered salary is if they leave the team.
Why should the salary of players be public information exactly?
Never said they should. I am AGREEING with you, I'm just trying to debunk the detractors who try complain about how supposedly nobody else on EG ever gets a paycut. Just letting those guys know that you'll never find out about a pay cut and that they probably do happen when necessary, we just don't hear about it.
Well, I look like an idiot now. I agree with you though, this sums it up really.
Well, when a player seems hardwired to one base and two base all ins, it's hard to make the transition to longer, macro play. Puma made it onto the scene with short timing attacks vs zerg and terran and the 1-1-1 vs protoss. So, the decision for EG to release Puma comes as no surprise to me.
Well with only long past results to speak off it's not a bad way to lower the salary of a player in a new contract, ofc we don't know how much they are talking about here wich makes me wonder if the gap was perhaps a bit to wide.
The reasons do make sense, and with his recent results and free-falling skill level, I guess it's not a surprise, but he was their most accomplished SC2 player, so feels odd. Not knowing the contract he was offered during the renegotiations, I'm surprised he didn't accept still. Not sure where he thinks he can go and get better terms, even if it was a worse contract, getting a salary and being sent to tournaments is better than a lot of players.
A shame puma could work something out with EG. But i'm glad to see teams not being afraid to dump a player if they are not worth the investment. I think there could be more of that done in the scene and though its hard for EG, they'll certainly benefit from it all. Good luck to both in the future.
On March 15 2013 21:17 Kasaraki wrote: The reasons do make sense, and with his recent results and free-falling skill level, I guess it's not a surprise, but he was their most accomplished SC2 player, so feels odd. Not knowing the contract he was offered during the renegotiations, I'm surprised he didn't accept still. Not sure where he thinks he can go and get better terms, even if it was a worse contract, getting a salary and being sent to tournaments is better than a lot of players.
Maybe he was their most accomplished Korean player, but Stephano has won more prize money than he has and is doing better presently.
On March 15 2013 21:17 Kasaraki wrote: The reasons do make sense, and with his recent results and free-falling skill level, I guess it's not a surprise, but he was their most accomplished SC2 player, so feels odd. Not knowing the contract he was offered during the renegotiations, I'm surprised he didn't accept still. Not sure where he thinks he can go and get better terms, even if it was a worse contract, getting a salary and being sent to tournaments is better than a lot of players.
Maybe he was their most accomplished Korean player, but Stephano has won more prize money than he has and is doing better presently.
Ah, yeah of course, but I meant historically. Puma has most of his results while on EG I think. Stephano has a majority of his while on Millenium.
People have to understand EG is about the money,not producing good players. As long as their players rake in money one way or another, they will have a spot in EG
On March 15 2013 21:37 maartendq wrote: Begs the question why Huk and Thorzain are still on.. I like them as players but it has been a long time since they achieved anything.
1. Because EG feels like they're getting a return on investment in them. Tournament results isnt the only way to gemerate exposure for sponsors. Keep in mind they may be paid more or or much less than Puma, not everyone in EG is paid the same. If they're getting paid less, then they don't have to earn as much back for them woth sponsorship exposure.
2 If they get put in a similar as Puma and take the lower salary due to their underperforming results, you won't hear about it because teams don't announce they're giving someone a lower salary because it's bad publicity, and you won't hear it from players because they're NDA'd from talking about their salary. And these pay cuts probably do happen when necessary when it's time to renegotiate contracts. We just don't hear about them because of those reasons. You'll only hear about a lowered salary if theyleave the team.
I love it when Koreans learn English; there's a lot of money in tournaments outside Korea; it's a career opportunity for any pro-gamer. Plus, it doesn't hurt to have the most used language in the world in your repertoire, right? Polt, viOlet, MC, the star examples.
Puma, why didn't you try to learn English?
All you had to do to keep your salary was say "Kingston Hyper X"
On March 15 2013 21:02 Felix_ wrote: Good for DeMuslim
Yesterday's stream viewers will understand.
Why post something like that without giving any more details!?
>_<
EDIT:
PuMa has been falling off a little recently, so it does make sense that they would want to renegotiate his contract. He obviously feels that he is worth more than whatever he was offered, either in terms of money or tournament playtime, so all I can really do is wish him the best of luck in getting what he wants with another team.
To be honest, PuMa's signing always felt to me like the kind of signings Manchester City made when they first got all their money. Manchester City couldn't immediately sign the very best players because, despite being able to offer really big wages and despite being a well-supported club in England, they didn't have the EU reputation nor the EU results to attract truly ambitious players. It wasn't until their EU reputation increased after the signing of several proven players for whom they often had to pay inflated transfer fees/wages (I'm think of players like Robinho, or even players like Wayne Bridge) that they were able to attract the attention of the world's best footballers. I think the parallels with EG's NA vs. KR reputation are fairly obvious..?
Your analogy fails, Puma was probably the best signing EG made in SC2 so far in terms of the results it earned them. Yes, he fell off, but Puma was one of the best players back then.
On March 15 2013 21:02 Felix_ wrote: Good for DeMuslim
Yesterday's stream viewers will understand.
Why post something like that without giving any more details!?
>_<
EDIT:
PuMa has been falling off a little recently, so it does make sense that they would want to renegotiate his contract. He obviously feels that he is worth more than whatever he was offered, either in terms of money or tournament playtime, so all I can really do is wish him the best of luck in getting what he wants with another team.
To be honest, PuMa's signing always felt to me like the kind of signings Manchester City made when they first got all their money. Manchester City couldn't immediately sign the very best players because, despite being able to offer really big wages and despite being a well-supported club in England, they didn't have the EU reputation nor the EU results to attract truly ambitious players. It wasn't until their EU reputation increased after the signing of several proven players for whom they often had to pay inflated transfer fees/wages (I'm think of players like Robinho, or even players like Wayne Bridge) that they were able to attract the attention of the world's best footballers. I think the parallels with EG's NA vs. KR reputation are fairly obvious..?
Your analogy fails, Puma was probably the best signing EG made in SC2 so far in terms of the results it earned them. Yes, he fell off, but Puma was one of the best players back then.
Players are investments. You don't make investments based on how much exposure players generated for you in the distant past. You judge them on the recent past, current present, and what you think you can expect from them in the future. Puma doesn't speak English, stream, cast, go on e-sports shows on a weekly basis, tweet, interact with fans, etc. and didnt seem to have any indication that he would do so in the future, so the only way he could generate sponsorship exposure was with tournament results, so that's what he was judged on. The results in the recent past and present weren't good, and they probably didn't expect him to drastically improve, so when his contract ended and they were negotiating a new one, a pay cut was justified.
Fortunately, Puma was my least favorite EG player (at least before some of the really recent additions like Revival) but it's a shame that it was results that led to them parting ways.
If they're cutting Puma for no results and too high salary, players like Machine or Incontrol must be getting little to nothing in order for that statement to be justified.
On March 15 2013 22:08 HornyHerring wrote: If they're cutting Puma for no results and too high salary, players like Machine or Incontrol must be getting little to nothing in order for that statement to be justified.
Please read the previous posts. They don't judge how much someone is worth based solely on tournament results.
On March 15 2013 21:47 Xpace wrote: I love it when Koreans learn English; there's a lot of money in tournaments outside Korea; it's a career opportunity for any pro-gamer. Plus, it doesn't hurt to have the most used language in the world in your repertoire, right? Polt, viOlet, MC, the star examples.
Puma, why didn't you try to learn English?
All you had to do to keep your salary was say "Kingston Hyper X"
Are you sure about that? Because some sources claim that even the most spoken language (not the language with the most mother tongue speakers!) is still mandarin.
On March 15 2013 17:58 saltis wrote: I guess that is a warning signal for Huk to stop playing LOL too.
No cause he ain't Korean.
In sc2 only Koreans are held to a high standard.
Posts like this are the reason why there needs to be a mod note on top of this topic.
Once again, every progamer is judged on whether they're bringing EG (or any e-sports team) more money than they're paying them. It's called Return on Investment (ROI). This return is based off EG Brand Exposure and EG Sponsorship exposure, which can be judged in numerous ways, including tournament results.
They didn't think Puma was bringing in enough of a return, so they tried to negotiate a lower salary to reflect what he was bringing in for them. Puma said no, so they let him go. They didn't just kick him out for not producing results like people who post stuff like this seem to think.
He's still #12 in the tournament earnings, only other EG member higher is Stephano who played in way more tournaments.
What he's achieved in the past matters less than the results he's achieving now when negotiating a new contract, which reflect the state Puma is in in the present and what they can expect of him in future. He hasn't placed high in tournaments since March of 2012. He hasn't been producing many results in general. He can't speak English, he never streamed much, barely tweeted, was not part of any promotional team activities, and in all this time did not really make any visible effort to become better at speaking English like other fellow Koreans on foreign teams (MC, Polt, Crank, HerO, JYP, GanZi just to name a few) have.
As a result, the only thing he had to offer in brand/sponsorship exposure was game and tournament results. And when he hasn't been winning important games, such as in Korea's most prestigious team league, or placing high in tournaments in the past year, he wasn't generating enough brand and sponsor exposure to justify how much they were paying him. So, and I can't believe I'm repeating this again, they offered him a lower salary to better reflect his current state and the return on the investment they expected from him over course of the new contract period. He refused, and since they expected to lose money on their investment in Puma with his current salary, they had to let him go.
You are only proving my initial point... Koreans are held to a much higher standard compared to foreigners...
Highly achieved Korean player starting to win less? Ok take a big cut in your paycheck or leave the team... That's all this is...
It's not like anyone besides Stephano done well in EG lately and Puma most likely already makes less than most foreigners... hence why they say he's ''one of the highest paid Korean on our team''.
Of course Koreans are held to higher standards, the average Korean player is a lot less marketable than the average foreign player of similar skill. To expose the public to your sponsors you need to either win a lot or stream a lot and interact with fans. The EG foreigners do a very good job at making themselves and their sponsors visible. The Koreans not so much, partly due to the language barrier, partly due to the fact that Koreans tend to not show their personality as much.
Ummm ... I can barely remember seeing Puma stream games, let alone mention sponsors or exhibit any kind of personality. Already, I've seen Jaedong's stream up longer and more often than Puma's.
I think Huk is eventually going to get a slap on the wrist, too. I don't think EG is going to tolerate players that get paid very well, don't post results AND don't proactively promote their sponsors or increase their exposure.
People can complain all they want about IdrA or InControl or Demuslim but those guys plug Raidcall and show off their Razer wares constantly. They're doing the dirty work of pimping sponsors while players in Korea are underperforming and acting like delicate, mute snowflakes.
And the important thing is, even if Huk or ANY OTHER PLAYER does get a "slap on the wrist" in the form of a lower salary, which probably does happen or has happened in the past, you wont hear about it because that's bad publicity for EG, and the players are NDA'd from revealing their salary or specifications about contract negotiations.
The only time you would hear about a lowered salary is if they leave the team.
Why should the salary of players be public information exactly?
Because it helps players negotiate - if ppl knew how bad some salaries were...
On March 15 2013 22:20 Kznn wrote: flash to replace him?
Iirc, in his prime, Flash was making over 200k annually from salary alone. Even if it has probably dropped since then, Flash still probably makes a higher salary than any single player on EG. Kespa teams have quite a bit of money. Except maybe Team 8, who are directly sponsored by Kespa, but even they might not make it if they don't find a sponsor soon. Kespa probably won't back them forever. Jaedong was on Team 8, which is probably why he accepted EG's offer. And even then, negotiations were done through Kespa, and they made it so that he's technically on loan for a year, and would be contractually obligated to come back to Team 8 if they find a sponsor. EG probably can't afford Flash.
On March 15 2013 22:27 HornyHerring wrote: I stand by what I said, don't care that EG has players and "players".
Well then you would be wrong on both counts. They don't judge based solely on results. And Incontrol at least is valuable to EG and is probably making good money from them. Not something huge, but enough to sustain a comfortable lifestyle and support a family. Don't know about Machine.
In my opinion, a business needs to make decisions that benefit themselves in some way. You cannot call a business a business if they are expected to behave like a charity. The time puma was in EG is a long enough indication of his 'progress' and like every employee to a business, needs to perform to standards subject to review every now and then.
In my eyes, puma was always a player player. He was not known for his personality, infact I myself have rarely had the opportunity to hear him speak. He is a shy personality, holds plenty of humility and humbleness but that doesn't induce mass excitement from fans. If you are known to be a a player on a team for your skill, and your value is in your skill, and after a while you no longer are of that standard, then you have less value. Naturally, EG will respond to this. A successful organisation like EG does not get there by being frivolous with its money.
Hate pointed towards the lesser performing players of the team should be considered with some retrospect. incontrol whilst not known for his skill, is known for his contribution to the community. And, perhaps other players who you feel aren't the cusp of talent are due for a review too? Maybe thats already happen and they're quite happy to take pay cuts etc.
On March 15 2013 22:27 HornyHerring wrote: I stand by what I said, don't care that EG has players and "players".
Well then you would be wrong. Incontrol is valuable to EG and is probably making good money from them. Not something huge, but enough to sustain comfortable lifestyle and support a family.
Yes, but they still label him as a player(Hell, he is their team captain, whatever that means) even though it is obvious they keep him for his personality rather than his player skill. It is all about how many eyes you can put on yourself, some people do it by playing well, others do it with their personality(destiny, incontrol, idra for some periods, dragon)
There are a few other EG players currently overpaid and underperforming worst than Puma. But they stay on because of their popularity with NA fans, that I suppose makes up for their lack of results.
On March 15 2013 22:47 jj33 wrote: If EG wants to be competitive in Korea, I really hope they get some really good players.
JYP isn't cutting it either.
lol JYP has the most wins in proleague for EGTL tied with HerO
I've been watching proleague, doesn't matter. JYP will probably linger around Code A for a bit and disappear. There is much better talent in KOrea. JYP never impressed me. EG can do better.
On March 15 2013 22:27 HornyHerring wrote: I stand by what I said, don't care that EG has players and "players".
Well then you would be wrong. Incontrol is valuable to EG and is probably making good money from them. Not something huge, but enough to sustain comfortable lifestyle and support a family.
Incontrol provides so much value for EG on the media end. He loves to compete and its great that keeps throwing his hat in the ring, but he true strength is in the media and keeping EG in the front of everyone’s mind. It takes pressure off of EG’s other players to have media presence and they can focus on practicing.
Teams are just that, teams. Every member does not need to win every event, but keep the team functioning.
I get it, it's business, but it feels weird how cutthroat and businesslike EG can be in regards to Koreans, yet keep some of their American boys on after no results ever.
On March 15 2013 22:27 HornyHerring wrote: I stand by what I said, don't care that EG has players and "players".
Well then you would be wrong. Incontrol is valuable to EG and is probably making good money from them. Not something huge, but enough to sustain comfortable lifestyle and support a family.
Yes, but they still label him as a player(Hell, he is their team captain, whatever that means) even though it is obvious they keep him for his personality rather than his player skill. It is all about how many eyes you can put on yourself, some people do it by playing well, others do it with their personality(destiny, incontrol, idra for some periods, dragon)
What should they put him as?
He plays, he's a player. He's also an analyst, shoutcaster, promotor. But he started as a player. They have enough coaches and management and EG's analyst or shoutcaster or promotor simply doesn't cut it as a title on the team.
On March 15 2013 22:51 sparklyresidue wrote: I get it, it's business, but it feels weird how cutthroat and businesslike EG can be in regards to Koreans, yet keep some of their American boys on after no results ever.
On March 15 2013 22:47 jj33 wrote: If EG wants to be competitive in Korea, I really hope they get some really good players.
JYP isn't cutting it either.
lol JYP has the most wins in proleague for EGTL tied with HerO
I've been watching proleague, doesn't matter. JYP will probably linger around Code A for a bit and disappear. There is much better talent in KOrea. JYP never impressed me. EG can do better.
Alert the EG, JYP hasn't impressed a random nobody although he's achieved some good results, he simply doesn't cut it for a random.
On March 15 2013 22:47 jj33 wrote: If EG wants to be competitive in Korea, I really hope they get some really good players.
JYP isn't cutting it either.
lol JYP has the most wins in proleague for EGTL tied with HerO
I've been watching proleague, doesn't matter. JYP will probably linger around Code A for a bit and disappear. There is much better talent in KOrea. JYP never impressed me. EG can do better.
Alert the EG, JYP hasn't impressed a random nobody although he's achieved some good results, he simply doesn't cut it for a random.
Sorry JYP, but you won't be missed.
Was waiting for a post like this. Think that affects me?
you come off like a child. just simply saying EG needs better players to be more competitive.
I'm pretty sure JYP's performance has been a disappointment for many people with his stint with EG.
nice try though.
Oh and what good results? Getting obliterated in code S? NOt winning one single foreign tournament? For a Korean protoss who was touted as a Code S talent, his results have been extremely lackluster.
if this is the case with puma, I am worried for incontrol and the others. i hope what they offered incontrol as a result of his poor performance is at least enough to put food on the table especially now that he has a family. would be horrible to see him starve and suffer because of it.
On March 15 2013 22:27 HornyHerring wrote: I stand by what I said, don't care that EG has players and "players".
Well then you would be wrong. Incontrol is valuable to EG and is probably making good money from them. Not something huge, but enough to sustain comfortable lifestyle and support a family.
Yes, but they still label him as a player(Hell, he is their team captain, whatever that means) even though it is obvious they keep him for his personality rather than his player skill. It is all about how many eyes you can put on yourself, some people do it by playing well, others do it with their personality(destiny, incontrol, idra for some periods, dragon)
His original statement he "stands behind" makes no mention of the distinction between players and "players" and only talks about results and how much incontrol and machine make. He is wrong and that original statement is the one I'm responding to:
On March 15 2013 22:08 HornyHerring wrote: If they're cutting Puma for no results and too high salary, players like Machine or Incontrol must be getting little to nothing in order for that statement to be justified.
On March 15 2013 22:47 jj33 wrote: If EG wants to be competitive in Korea, I really hope they get some really good players.
JYP isn't cutting it either.
lol JYP has the most wins in proleague for EGTL tied with HerO
I've been watching proleague, doesn't matter. JYP will probably linger around Code A for a bit and disappear. There is much better talent in KOrea. JYP never impressed me. EG can do better.
Alert the EG, JYP hasn't impressed a random nobody although he's achieved some good results, he simply doesn't cut it for a random.
Sorry JYP, but you won't be missed.
Was waiting for a post like this. Think that affects me?
you come off like a child. just simply saying EG needs better players to be more competitive.
I'm pretty sure JYP's performance has been a disappointment for many people with his stint with EG.
nice try though.
Oh and what good results? Getting obliterated in code S? NOt winning one single foreign tournament? For a Korean protoss who was touted as a Code S talent, his results have been extremely lackluster.
Why would you rip one of their best Proleague performers especially on a team that stated it is dedicating itself to improving in Proleague. There are players on EG much worse than JYP who need to be cut before him.
On March 15 2013 22:47 jj33 wrote: If EG wants to be competitive in Korea, I really hope they get some really good players.
JYP isn't cutting it either.
lol JYP has the most wins in proleague for EGTL tied with HerO
I've been watching proleague, doesn't matter. JYP will probably linger around Code A for a bit and disappear. There is much better talent in KOrea. JYP never impressed me. EG can do better.
Alert the EG, JYP hasn't impressed a random nobody although he's achieved some good results, he simply doesn't cut it for a random.
Sorry JYP, but you won't be missed.
TBH JYP has always been dissapointing, one more grossly overhyped player.
EG needs a true ace, a player with the personality, the mindset, and the skills of a true boss. I sincerely hope coach Park can spank Jaedong into a new bright era, his talent is getting wasted in EG so far.
On March 15 2013 22:47 jj33 wrote: If EG wants to be competitive in Korea, I really hope they get some really good players.
JYP isn't cutting it either.
lol JYP has the most wins in proleague for EGTL tied with HerO
I've been watching proleague, doesn't matter. JYP will probably linger around Code A for a bit and disappear. There is much better talent in KOrea. JYP never impressed me. EG can do better.
Alert the EG, JYP hasn't impressed a random nobody although he's achieved some good results, he simply doesn't cut it for a random.
Sorry JYP, but you won't be missed.
Was waiting for a post like this. Think that affects me?
you come off like a child. just simply saying EG needs better players to be more competitive.
I'm pretty sure JYP's performance has been a disappointment for many people with his stint with EG.
nice try though.
Oh and what good results? Getting obliterated in code S? NOt winning one single foreign tournament? For a Korean protoss who was touted as a Code S talent, his results have been extremely lackluster.
Okay, I'll play your game. Name another signing with which EG would do better.
On March 15 2013 22:47 jj33 wrote: If EG wants to be competitive in Korea, I really hope they get some really good players.
JYP isn't cutting it either.
lol JYP has the most wins in proleague for EGTL tied with HerO
I've been watching proleague, doesn't matter. JYP will probably linger around Code A for a bit and disappear. There is much better talent in KOrea. JYP never impressed me. EG can do better.
Alert the EG, JYP hasn't impressed a random nobody although he's achieved some good results, he simply doesn't cut it for a random.
Sorry JYP, but you won't be missed.
TBH JYP has always been dissapointing, one more grossly overhyped player.
EG needs a true ace, a player with the personality, the mindset, and the skills of a true boss. I sincerely hope coach Park can spank Jaedong into a new bright era, his talent is getting wasted in EG so far.
exactly. JYP was brought in as a Code S protoss. aaannnd yeaaa... that fizzled out quickly.
On March 15 2013 22:47 jj33 wrote: If EG wants to be competitive in Korea, I really hope they get some really good players.
JYP isn't cutting it either.
lol JYP has the most wins in proleague for EGTL tied with HerO
I've been watching proleague, doesn't matter. JYP will probably linger around Code A for a bit and disappear. There is much better talent in KOrea. JYP never impressed me. EG can do better.
Alert the EG, JYP hasn't impressed a random nobody although he's achieved some good results, he simply doesn't cut it for a random.
Sorry JYP, but you won't be missed.
TBH JYP has always been dissapointing, one more grossly overhyped player.
EG needs a true ace, a player with the personality, the mindset, and the skills of a true boss. I sincerely hope coach Park can spank Jaedong into a new bright era, his talent is getting wasted in EG so far.
exactly. JYP was brought in as a Code S protoss. aaannnd yeaaa... that fizzled out quickly.
It's cool because I don't see people throwing random shit at HerO or TaeJa despite their lackluster performance in Proleague, while JYP has kept a record similar to their.
On March 15 2013 22:47 jj33 wrote: If EG wants to be competitive in Korea, I really hope they get some really good players.
JYP isn't cutting it either.
lol JYP has the most wins in proleague for EGTL tied with HerO
I've been watching proleague, doesn't matter. JYP will probably linger around Code A for a bit and disappear. There is much better talent in KOrea. JYP never impressed me. EG can do better.
Alert the EG, JYP hasn't impressed a random nobody although he's achieved some good results, he simply doesn't cut it for a random.
Sorry JYP, but you won't be missed.
Was waiting for a post like this. Think that affects me?
you come off like a child. just simply saying EG needs better players to be more competitive.
I'm pretty sure JYP's performance has been a disappointment for many people with his stint with EG.
nice try though.
Oh and what good results? Getting obliterated in code S? NOt winning one single foreign tournament? For a Korean protoss who was touted as a Code S talent, his results have been extremely lackluster.
Okay, I'll play your game. Name another signing with which EG would do better.
I'm not playing any game. Nice strawman attempt.
I do not know the contract statuses of players in Korea, so I can't comment. But in general there are plenty of better players than JYP.
On March 15 2013 22:59 xwoGworwaTsx wrote: if this is the case with puma, I am worried for incontrol and the others. i hope what they offered incontrol as a result of his poor performance is at least enough to put food on the table especially now that he has a family. would be horrible to see him starve and suffer because of it.
As has been stated multile times, EG doesn't judge solely on tournament results. Tournament results is just part of how they judge a member's worth, and can be made up in other ways to expose the brand and sponsors. Incontrol is good at doing other things for eg and its sponsors bewidrs tourney results, so no need to fear for his livelihood or anything.
On March 15 2013 22:47 jj33 wrote: If EG wants to be competitive in Korea, I really hope they get some really good players.
JYP isn't cutting it either.
lol JYP has the most wins in proleague for EGTL tied with HerO
I've been watching proleague, doesn't matter. JYP will probably linger around Code A for a bit and disappear. There is much better talent in KOrea. JYP never impressed me. EG can do better.
Alert the EG, JYP hasn't impressed a random nobody although he's achieved some good results, he simply doesn't cut it for a random.
Sorry JYP, but you won't be missed.
Was waiting for a post like this. Think that affects me?
you come off like a child. just simply saying EG needs better players to be more competitive.
I'm pretty sure JYP's performance has been a disappointment for many people with his stint with EG.
nice try though.
Oh and what good results? Getting obliterated in code S? NOt winning one single foreign tournament? For a Korean protoss who was touted as a Code S talent, his results have been extremely lackluster.
Okay, I'll play your game. Name another signing with which EG would do better.
haha are you dense? you are comparing hero and taeja to jYP?
I like how you only look at proleague and not their performance as a whole.
Let's see taeja and hero both won multiple foreign tournaments for starters. Both much better results in code S, especially taeja.
Nice try man. EG would love to have taeja or hero over JYP anyday.
On March 15 2013 22:47 jj33 wrote: If EG wants to be competitive in Korea, I really hope they get some really good players.
JYP isn't cutting it either.
lol JYP has the most wins in proleague for EGTL tied with HerO
I've been watching proleague, doesn't matter. JYP will probably linger around Code A for a bit and disappear. There is much better talent in KOrea. JYP never impressed me. EG can do better.
Alert the EG, JYP hasn't impressed a random nobody although he's achieved some good results, he simply doesn't cut it for a random.
Sorry JYP, but you won't be missed.
TBH JYP has always been dissapointing, one more grossly overhyped player.
EG needs a true ace, a player with the personality, the mindset, and the skills of a true boss. I sincerely hope coach Park can spank Jaedong into a new bright era, his talent is getting wasted in EG so far.
exactly. JYP was brought in as a Code S protoss. aaannnd yeaaa... that fizzled out quickly.
It's cool because I don't see people throwing random shit at HerO or TaeJa despite their lackluster performance in Proleague, while JYP has kept a record similar to their.
Huh? Both of them get plenty of shit from fans because of their poor performances in PL. Both were expected to do much better.
Well, former Mr. EG is out D= I think EG is really taking the path of the superstar sports teams where superstars come and go, arrive in their "prime" and discarded soon after a noticeable decline. With incoming superstars like Jaedong, Stephano, Thorzain etc this wasn't surprising at all, I guess if you're not a popular player and results stop coming then you're always gonna be in danger of losing your place. Sad to see someone I recognise as EG's first great pickup and first Korean leave, but I can't deny I do like the way the EG storyline is going, New York Yankees of eSports?
On March 15 2013 23:07 Khai wrote: Well, former Mr. EG is out D= I think EG is really taking the path of the superstar sports teams where superstars come and go, arrive in their "prime" and discarded soon after a noticeable decline. With incoming superstars like Jaedong, Stephano, Thorzain etc this wasn't surprising at all, I guess if you're not a popular player and results stop coming then you're always gonna be in danger of losing your place. Sad to see someone I recognise as EG's first great pickup and first Korean leave, but I can't deny I do like the way the EG storyline is going, New York Yankees of eSports?
They'd have to win a team league consistently to get that moniker. As it is now, they're lucky if they place in say top 8 or so.
"Did we provide the right training environment for Puma?" "Did we help him develop into a better player?"
Often times, it's the employer's fault if employees underperform. I am not saying this is the case here, but it would be a slap in the face if Puma goes to another team and starts posting great results.
On a serious side thought, we would they keep players like Machine and Demuslim who compared to puma accomplishes nothing in terms of tournament wins? Like the reasoning that they REALLY want to focus on Proleague and therefore needs a team where everyone performs their best seems like a strange way of thinking. It seems like there is more behind this, but in all fairness what do I know.
On March 15 2013 23:18 IcookTacos wrote: On a serious side thought, we would they keep players like Machine and Demuslim who compared to puma accomplishes nothing in terms of tournament wins? Like the reasoning that they REALLY want to focus on Proleague and therefore needs a team where everyone performs their best seems like a strange way of thinking. It seems like there is more behind this, but in all fairness what do I know.
Demuslim had 6k+ viewers the other day. I'd say that is pretty good!
About Puma, I guess if he cant live with a lower sallary it makes sense to not want to sign with them again
On March 15 2013 22:47 jj33 wrote: If EG wants to be competitive in Korea, I really hope they get some really good players.
JYP isn't cutting it either.
lol JYP has the most wins in proleague for EGTL tied with HerO
I've been watching proleague, doesn't matter. JYP will probably linger around Code A for a bit and disappear. There is much better talent in KOrea. JYP never impressed me. EG can do better.
Alert the EG, JYP hasn't impressed a random nobody although he's achieved some good results, he simply doesn't cut it for a random.
Sorry JYP, but you won't be missed.
TBH JYP has always been dissapointing, one more grossly overhyped player.
EG needs a true ace, a player with the personality, the mindset, and the skills of a true boss. I sincerely hope coach Park can spank Jaedong into a new bright era, his talent is getting wasted in EG so far.
exactly. JYP was brought in as a Code S protoss. aaannnd yeaaa... that fizzled out quickly.
It's cool because I don't see people throwing random shit at HerO or TaeJa despite their lackluster performance in Proleague, while JYP has kept a record similar to their.
On March 15 2013 23:18 IcookTacos wrote: On a serious side thought, we would they keep players like Machine and Demuslim who compared to puma accomplishes nothing in terms of tournament wins? Like the reasoning that they REALLY want to focus on Proleague and therefore needs a team where everyone performs their best seems like a strange way of thinking. It seems like there is more behind this, but in all fairness what do I know.
You didn't even read the OP then. Or any of the thread, since this is brought up on nearly every page...
They wanted to keep Puma on their team, but they didn't want him to be one of the highest paid people in EG when he doesn't get results that could possibly justify his wages. Puma refused to go down in salary despite performing worse so EG couldn't offer him a contract he'd accept.
On March 15 2013 23:18 IcookTacos wrote: On a serious side thought, we would they keep players like Machine and Demuslim who compared to puma accomplishes nothing in terms of tournament wins? Like the reasoning that they REALLY want to focus on Proleague and therefore needs a team where everyone performs their best seems like a strange way of thinking. It seems like there is more behind this, but in all fairness what do I know.
Keeping Machine makes no sense at all. He gets the same zero win results as Incontrol, but doesn't bring any other attributes that Incontrol brings to the team and community.
Actually that's very sad news. PuMa was the pillar of EG for so long. After IdrA stopped bringing good results (with occassional peaks like MLG Orlando 4th place or IEM in china), it was PuMa that was bearing the EG banner, being their flag player results-wise for so long. He was the best player on EG roster for so freaking long time...
On March 15 2013 23:18 IcookTacos wrote: On a serious side thought, we would they keep players like Machine and Demuslim who compared to puma accomplishes nothing in terms of tournament wins? Like the reasoning that they REALLY want to focus on Proleague and therefore needs a team where everyone performs their best seems like a strange way of thinking. It seems like there is more behind this, but in all fairness what do I know.
Keeping Machine makes no sense at all. He gets the same zero win results as Incontrol, but doesn't bring any other attributes that Incontrol brings to the team and community.
I like the transparency in the press release. That way there isn't as much speculation as there often is with news like this. Even covering the fact that they tried to negotiate a lower salary and more foreign tournaments for him.
This has nothing to do with Puma's performance. EG has always been interested in marketable individuals rather than good players. Even though Puma was not performing that well he still is a better player than most of the other players on EG's roster. I would say Puma is on a similar skill level as Stephano, who also has been underwhelming for the last 6 months at least, even though Stephano obviously receives much more money than Puma.
On March 15 2013 23:37 StreetWise wrote: I like the transparency in the press release. That way there isn't as much speculation as there often is with news like this. Even covering the fact that they tried to negotiate a lower salary and more foreign tournaments for him.
They did a really good job media wise on this one and got out in front of the message before everyone lost their minds. It’s a bummer, but they clearly went through a lot of effort to try and keep Puma on the team. Sometimes, both sides cannot come to terms.
GUYS, isn't it painfully obvious that this decision is in many ways related to Coach Park? I mean, it can't be a mere coincidence that only a few days after signing Coach Park, Puma is dismissed. I think it was a coaching decision, to be honest.
On March 15 2013 23:41 ThePrince wrote: GUYS, isn't it painfully obvious that this decision is in many ways related to Coach Park? I mean, it can't be a mere coincidence that only a few days after signing Coach Park, Puma is dismissed. I think it was a coaching decision, to be honest.
what do you know about coach Park and / or Puma that makes you think that?
I love how Alex beats around the fence in saying PuMa was never a Pro League/Korean competition caliber player and the strategies of the day didn't help facilitate PuMa's success durrrrrr. He says I'm going to keep it squeaky clean because in this scenario it was but look at all the red flags lol. The guy clearly lives on a different planet.
On March 15 2013 23:41 ThePrince wrote: GUYS, isn't it painfully obvious that this decision is in many ways related to Coach Park? I mean, it can't be a mere coincidence that only a few days after signing Coach Park, Puma is dismissed. I think it was a coaching decision, to be honest.
what do you know about coach Park and / or Puma that makes you think that?
They're going to start thinking everything has to do with coach Park when it comes to the team's success and failures when in reality sometimes you just have to let things play out with the new expansion pack and the wins will come. In either case, I'd say you guys are thinking way too much.
On March 15 2013 23:47 StarStruck wrote: I love how Alex beats around the fence in saying PuMa was never a Pro League/Korean competition caliber player and the strategies of the day didn't help facilitate PuMa's success durrrrrr. He says I'm going to keep it squeaky clean because in this scenario it was but look at all the red flags lol. The guy clearly lives on a different planet.
Yeah, because clearly what you should do when release someone is go into detail on how you think they are are a shitty player, that they didn't pratice and were not really good enough. That is a great media plan and really helpful for your image i the community and your other players.
I don't think is is AG who lives on a different planet.
Questions questions questions. Some questions came to my guttiwuts after reading the community's responses:
1. How could EG not convince him to stay on with a lower salary, even though it seems obvious to us all that staying on a team like EG, even with a big pay cut is an absolute no-brainier for a slumping player like Puma?
2. Could this mean that the negotiations weren't genuine/communicated properly, and were more of a formality as they booted the once mighty Puma out the door? Were there other conflicts in the team that made him want to leave or make them want him out?
3. Or do we take EG at their word and does that mean that Puma lacks the perspective (for want of a better word) on the scene to know he was better off staying?
Wow, I thought this article was great, it actually explained the circumstance instead of the constant "we split mutually" fluff. Great Run by Puma, Thanks EG!
On March 15 2013 23:47 StarStruck wrote: I love how Alex beats around the fence in saying PuMa was never a Pro League/Korean competition caliber player and the strategies of the day didn't help facilitate PuMa's success durrrrrr. He says I'm going to keep it squeaky clean because in this scenario it was but look at all the red flags lol. The guy clearly lives on a different planet.
Yeah, because clearly what you should do when release someone is go into detail on how you think they are are a shitty player, that they didn't pratice and were not really good enough. That is a great media plan and really helpful for your image i the community and your other players.
I don't think is is AG who lives on a different planet.
That's not what I said Captain Planet. It goes something like this, "blah, blah blah, blah; Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, yadda yadda yadda ya." He says everything was rosy but then he does clamp down on Mr. PuMa. I find the press release personally excessive when he could have done it in 250 words. You don't have to write a tell-all book.
On March 15 2013 23:47 StarStruck wrote: I love how Alex beats around the fence in saying PuMa was never a Pro League/Korean competition caliber player and the strategies of the day didn't help facilitate PuMa's success durrrrrr. He says I'm going to keep it squeaky clean because in this scenario it was but look at all the red flags lol. The guy clearly lives on a different planet.
Yeah, because clearly what you should do when release someone is go into detail on how you think they are are a shitty player, that they didn't pratice and were not really good enough. That is a great media plan and really helpful for your image i the community and your other players.
I don't think is is AG who lives on a different planet.
That's not what I said Captain Planet. It goes something like this, "blah, blah blah, blah; Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, yadda yadda yadda ya." He says everything was rosy but then he does clamp down on Mr. PuMa. I find the press release personally excessive when he could have done it in 250 words. You don't have to write a tell-all book.
From my understanding, everyone on EG really liked Puma, from AG all the way down to the players and staff. I saw the press release as something to give him a send off and make 100% sure that other teams knew that is was simply a money issue, rather than some internal conflict. When teams release a player they like, they often try to make sure that player finds a good home. It is why I like EG, they really care about their players.
Always cheered for PuMa to make a comeback in a tourney or PL. Such a shame why he couldn't. I always wondered why he would get crushed so hard in PL and Korean tournaments but would win Dreamhack and other foreigner tournies with ease.
On March 16 2013 00:07 ROOTheognis wrote: Always cheered for PuMa to make a comeback in a tourney or PL. Such a shame why he couldn't. I always wondered why he would get crushed so hard in PL and Korean tournaments but would win Dreamhack and other foreigner tournies with ease.
I think you know why. Don't worry I'm sure he'll make some sort of return when the time is right. It's very difficult to be a well-rounded player and Terran's didn't have a really easy last quarter either.
On March 15 2013 23:40 E95jisA5dL wrote: This has nothing to do with Puma's performance. EG has always been interested in marketable individuals rather than good players. Even though Puma was not performing that well he still is a better player than most of the other players on EG's roster. I would say Puma is on a similar skill level as Stephano, who also has been underwhelming for the last 6 months at least, even though Stephano obviously receives much more money than Puma.
What? Winners are marketable, losers are not. EG wants winners.
As Alex said, Puma wanted a larger salary than Alex thought his performance warranted. This is 100% about Puma's performance or lack thereof.
Puma is my favorite Terran, and I have no doubts he will turn this around, but to say he is performing as well as Stephano is just ridiculous. And there is no other accurate way to measure skill than results. Stephano has a 6-5 record in Pro-League and is the best player EG-TL has in terms of win-loss ratio (in fact he is the only player with more win than losses). Puma is 1-7, despite me cheering my heart out for him every game.
I am pretty impressed with the way that EG handled this. But I feel sorry for them that people can't read and understand their announcement and understand the business side of E-Sports.
On March 16 2013 00:07 ROOTheognis wrote: Always cheered for PuMa to make a comeback in a tourney or PL. Such a shame why he couldn't. I always wondered why he would get crushed so hard in PL and Korean tournaments but would win Dreamhack and other foreigner tournies with ease.
It is a mental thing for Puma. He could practice well, but never perform well in Korea. If he gets over the mental block, he could dominate.
On March 16 2013 00:27 derpface wrote: Now I wonder who will go next, HuK or Machine or hopefully iNcontroL?
Machine is the only one out of those three I could conceivably see leaving. But I think they want to give him a chance to prove himself in HotS, he switched over very early.
Makes sense to me, it's a business after all. Sports players routinely get less money in their contracts when their level of pay decreases, not sure why puma felt otherwise about himself. I guess we don't know the entire details and figure, but ya, makes sense to me
With that said, not sure why this logic isn't applied to players like Machine and Demuslim (I'd say idra and incontrol, but they have more of a leadership/community/whatever role than player role)... loyalty maybe? But if that were the case, Puma has done and earned much more for EG than those players ever did or will, so....
That statement is one big reason for me to like and love the honesty of EG. Basically, the message is the following: PuMa was good, we want to thank him. Now PuMa is bad and is not worth the money we put in him. So, on a professional level, we have to say goodbye.
Kudos to EG for being that honest.
Let's just NOT go for "who's next" . IdrA, JYP, HuK, Suppy, Machine... you don't hear too much lately, do you?
EG did a good job on this one. Their media release explained the situation. People may be skeptical, which is fine.
On a side note, I love how people say these players make "too much money" causes an "EG Curse." Just realize the only way for esports to grow and attract people, is if more money comes into the system. A person decides: "Should I hold off with university and make money playing esports?" They could play Starcraft II professionally and make X amount of dollars. Or they could go to university and make Y amount of dollars after they are finished. People look at the opportunity cost each situation. If there are higher salaries, then more players and fans will come to esports. I applaud any epsorts team that can provide a decent salary and benefits to their players. More people watching Starcraft II means more sponsors and larger prize pools.
The amount of money they make is relative. It may be a lot compared to what YOU make, especially since many of the players are young kids. Imagine receiving that amount of income at 15-19 years old? Most of professional Starcraft II players do not make much. And it takes years to get there.
On March 16 2013 00:21 BronzeKnee wrote:What? Winners are marketable, losers are not. EG wants winners.
What you say is clearly not true. Losers are indeed marketable. Just look at Incontrol, Idra, Machine, Huk who all get facerolled by Puma or any other Korean or significant EU player for that matter, and haven't done anything significant in years. The reason they are on a team and have market value is because they have a big personality and have a following of fans. Shy Koreans are quite hard to market, even if they are winners. Why do you think Idra has a much bigger following than Taeja? It's not because of his skill I can guarantee you that.
i dont understand how puma who has won a lot of events gets the boot while other guys who have won one or less in the last 2 years gets to stay and probably paid more than him salary
On March 16 2013 00:27 derpface wrote: Now I wonder who will go next, HuK or Machine or hopefully iNcontroL?
Keep hoping, its not going to happen. Incontrol provides a ton of value to EG though media presence, regardless of his results in events. And because of his media and community presence, other team members can focus on practice and events. EG has no reason to get rid of their front man when he is doing such a good job at it.
On March 16 2013 00:27 derpface wrote: Now I wonder who will go next, HuK or Machine or hopefully iNcontroL?
Keep hoping, its not going to happen. Incontrol provides a ton of value to EG though media presence, regardless of his results in events. And because of his media and community presence, other team members can focus on practice and events. EG has no reason to get rid of their front man when he is doing such a good job at it.
Not to mention Incontrol is semi-retired from pro play at this point and is focusing on his other strengths - commentating, event hosting etc. As well as being the team captain and the public face of EG. Alex would be retarded to drop Incontrol.
Makes zero sense with HOTS release. Could it be endless money ceased to flow? Hopefuly Puma will get to a good team. Maybe one of KESPA's? Puma struggled in korea, yes, but who would be better to help him with this than korean team.
Well DeMusliM shall rise now so its k, so sad to hear about PuMa leaving when new Coach coming into the house, It will be interesting to see foreigner under a Korean regiment of training, I Wonder if Coach Park will also affect TL-EG in Proleague, and who will he "train or help" TL players
On March 16 2013 00:52 Tosster wrote: Makes zero sense with HOTS release. Could it be endless money ceased to flow?
Or because Puma was earning way too much compared to his current skill? Hots or not, he wasn't performing as well as he did when they signed him. As you can read from the statement, Puma was one of their highest earning players. Even without decreasing/balancing the salary, Puma didn't accept the offer. It would be very risky to offer him the same or similar contract just because it's HotS. They need the money elsewhere, getting more players to EG-TL for example. And i'm sure you can get few new players that are up and coming and has huge potential with that kind of money.
From the statement:
PuMa was one of our highest-paid Korean players, and we felt that to truly improve our performance in Proleague, we needed to get more results for our investment. We view Ho Joon as a member of our family, and we didn’t want to simply remove him from our team – in fact, we wanted to, and tried to, renegotiate his contract in a way that would make more sense for both sides (perhaps by balancing a decrease in salary with less Proleague participation and more non-Korean event attendance), but ultimately this approach was not desirable to him, and both of us agreed that it would be best to release him.
On March 16 2013 00:27 derpface wrote: Now I wonder who will go next, HuK or Machine or hopefully iNcontroL?
Keep hoping, its not going to happen. Incontrol provides a ton of value to EG though media presence, regardless of his results in events. And because of his media and community presence, other team members can focus on practice and events. EG has no reason to get rid of their front man when he is doing such a good job at it.
Not to mention Incontrol is semi-retired from pro play at this point and is focusing on his other strengths - commentating, event hosting etc. As well as being the team captain and the public face of EG. Alex would be retarded to drop Incontrol.
Exactly. And like Artosis, he will throw his hat into the an open bracket now and again because he loves to compete, which is super respectable. I wouldn’t be shocked if over the next year he also tried to learn from Coach Park on how to coach professional players and set up solid practice sessions. There is no reason not to try to export some of that magic to the EG lair.
There are a lot of places on a team that are important and need someone with Incontrol’s skill set.
It is a sound business move, the dude is not performing to his currently salary or wasn't bringing any exposure and marketability to the brand. Puma didn't agree to the pay cut and was release, I mean it happen all the time in professional sports. It will be pretty difficult for puma to look for teams that can even match his former salary or close to it but good luck.
On March 16 2013 00:44 Jibba wrote: It's interesting to see the way Nazgul talks about his current and former players, and the way Alex does it.
There's a difference in circumstance behind how the players are released from their respective teams. Liquid players opted to leave the game either to retire from the game completely or become team less.
Alex released Puma because they couldn't reach an agreement in salary.
On March 16 2013 00:44 Jibba wrote: It's interesting to see the way Nazgul talks about his current and former players, and the way Alex does it.
You mean with respect? Because I have read all the press releases and statements regarding players leaving, (Haypro, Jinro, Tyler and Puma) and they seem respectful all of them. Both those made be Nazgul and Alex.
As a businessman myself, I find it hard to look at this with a lot of objectivity.
Typically if you are in a financial situation where you wish to obtain a higher goal (I.E. Proleague) then you objectively identify weaknesses and efficiency of the entire company (team).
At the end of the day, EG can do whatever they want to. However, my opinion is that they should take a broader approach to identifying goals and pursuing them.
On March 16 2013 00:44 Jibba wrote: It's interesting to see the way Nazgul talks about his current and former players, and the way Alex does it.
It is very interesting. The difference is probably due to how the teams were run though. TL always seem to be a more family like team. Both statements were made very professionally though. Very nicely done.
I'm sorry but if this is happening why weren't Machine and Lz released ages ago too? I can understand incontrol staying around as he is a legitimate engine for EG. But pffff...Puma, man.
On March 16 2013 01:25 HoLe wrote: I'm sorry but if this is happening why weren't Machine and Lz released ages ago too? I can understand incontrol staying around as he is a legitimate engine for EG. But pffff...Puma, man.
Because if you read the fucking announcement, they couldn't reach an agreement on the contract. Puma didn't want to have a smaller contract. Lz has already left EG and Machine is probably getting no money from EG. He just lives in the house and goes to MLG.
Before you comment, please read the entire announcement. There are so many posts in this thread where people have not read the entire announcement and they ask stupid questions that are answered in the announcement.
On March 16 2013 01:25 HoLe wrote: I'm sorry but if this is happening why weren't Machine and Lz released ages ago too? I can understand incontrol staying around as he is a legitimate engine for EG. But pffff...Puma, man.
salaries i guess and any of those have more exposure than puma
On March 16 2013 01:25 HoLe wrote: I'm sorry but if this is happening why weren't Machine and Lz released ages ago too? I can understand incontrol staying around as he is a legitimate engine for EG. But pffff...Puma, man.
LzGamer isn't on EG, hasn't been for *about* 2 months
As for Machine, I'd throw out my EG shirt if they dropped him
On March 16 2013 01:16 Ctone23 wrote: As a businessman myself, I find it hard to look at this with a lot of objectivity.
Typically if you are in a financial situation where you wish to obtain a higher goal (I.E. Proleague) then you objectively identify weaknesses and efficiency of the entire company (team).
At the end of the day, EG can do whatever they want to. However, my opinion is that they should take a broader approach to identifying goals and pursuing them.
GL Puma
They are taking a "broader approach". They hired a more experienced head coach and they stated they are planning on picking up more players.....
On March 16 2013 01:16 Ctone23 wrote: As a businessman myself, I find it hard to look at this with a lot of objectivity.
Typically if you are in a financial situation where you wish to obtain a higher goal (I.E. Proleague) then you objectively identify weaknesses and efficiency of the entire company (team).
At the end of the day, EG can do whatever they want to. However, my opinion is that they should take a broader approach to identifying goals and pursuing them.
GL Puma
Subjectively, this makes very little sense
Are you saying that Proleague as a goal, is bad for EG?
On March 16 2013 01:30 GoodSirTets wrote: If EG starts releasing players who show poor results disproportionate to their high salaries, they're going to have a small roster indeed...
I think it is more important to consider that some players may have willingly taken salary cuts due to poor results.
Sounds like EG made a solid attempt to keep Puma by making his contract more incentive based(I see winning foreign tournaments as the incentive), as his result have been lackluster. EG drops the salary significantly, but ensures Puma will have more opportunities abroad to try and win tournaments(And make up for the difference in pay with additional prize money).
Many professional sports athletes get contracts like that when slumping or past their prime, and they can work out well for both sides.
It's funny how they proclaim that it is all in good spirit and they are bff, even philosophize over it, only to go on that they fired him because he didn't agree to a pay cut. Not that it wasn't deserved, ever since 1-1-1 stopped working, he basically disappeared.
On March 16 2013 01:55 Rinrun wrote: Seeing this pop up in my feed made me go "ohhh damn."
GL to both sides going forward.
(Puma is going to come back with a vengeance)
I don't see this happening at all. Puma is just not really good at this game that's all. Not being able to break into code A even once speaks volumes about his level amongst koreans.
On March 16 2013 00:44 Jibba wrote: It's interesting to see the way Nazgul talks about his current and former players, and the way Alex does it.
You mean with respect? Because I have read all the press releases and statements regarding players leaving, (Haypro, Jinro, Tyler and Puma) and they seem respectful all of them. Both those made be Nazgul and Alex.
Alex's comments on Puma seem very cutting to me. Maybe accurate, but a little gruff for a PR release. I thought Anna's were good.
I always feel like Naz strikes the perfect balance of honesty and sentimentality, but I'm also biased.
I like this press release more than almost any other I've read. I don't even think it had much fluff, if anything it was brutally honest. His performance was lackluster, they were willing to keep him for a salary decrease, but he definitely did not deserve to be one of the highest Korean paid players. In fact, they offered to renegotiate a contract allowing him to focus on participating in foreign tournaments, an area which undoubtedly has high expenses, when it's not even a priority for the team.
On March 15 2013 18:27 Technique wrote: [quote] No cause he ain't Korean.
In sc2 only Koreans are held to a high standard.
Posts like this are the reason why there needs to be a mod note on top of this topic.
Once again, every progamer is judged on whether they're bringing EG (or any e-sports team) more money than they're paying them. It's called Return on Investment (ROI). This return is based off EG Brand Exposure and EG Sponsorship exposure, which can be judged in numerous ways, including tournament results.
They didn't think Puma was bringing in enough of a return, so they tried to negotiate a lower salary to reflect what he was bringing in for them. Puma said no, so they let him go. They didn't just kick him out for not producing results like people who post stuff like this seem to think.
He's still #12 in the tournament earnings, only other EG member higher is Stephano who played in way more tournaments.
What he's achieved in the past matters less than the results he's achieving now when negotiating a new contract, which reflect the state Puma is in in the present and what they can expect of him in future. He hasn't placed high in tournaments since March of 2012. He hasn't been producing many results in general. He can't speak English, he never streamed much, barely tweeted, was not part of any promotional team activities, and in all this time did not really make any visible effort to become better at speaking English like other fellow Koreans on foreign teams (MC, Polt, Crank, HerO, JYP, GanZi just to name a few) have.
As a result, the only thing he had to offer in brand/sponsorship exposure was game and tournament results. And when he hasn't been winning important games, such as in Korea's most prestigious team league, or placing high in tournaments in the past year, he wasn't generating enough brand and sponsor exposure to justify how much they were paying him. So, and I can't believe I'm repeating this again, they offered him a lower salary to better reflect his current state and the return on the investment they expected from him over course of the new contract period. He refused, and since they expected to lose money on their investment in Puma with his current salary, they had to let him go.
You are only proving my initial point... Koreans are held to a much higher standard compared to foreigners...
Highly achieved Korean player starting to win less? Ok take a big cut in your paycheck or leave the team... That's all this is...
It's not like anyone besides Stephano done well in EG lately and Puma most likely already makes less than most foreigners... hence why they say he's ''one of the highest paid Korean on our team''.
Of course Koreans are held to higher standards, the average Korean player is a lot less marketable than the average foreign player of similar skill. To expose the public to your sponsors you need to either win a lot or stream a lot and interact with fans. The EG foreigners do a very good job at making themselves and their sponsors visible. The Koreans not so much, partly due to the language barrier, partly due to the fact that Koreans tend to not show their personality as much.
Ummm ... I can barely remember seeing Puma stream games, let alone mention sponsors or exhibit any kind of personality. Already, I've seen Jaedong's stream up longer and more often than Puma's.
I think Huk is eventually going to get a slap on the wrist, too. I don't think EG is going to tolerate players that get paid very well, don't post results AND don't proactively promote their sponsors or increase their exposure.
People can complain all they want about IdrA or InControl or Demuslim but those guys plug Raidcall and show off their Razer wares constantly. They're doing the dirty work of pimping sponsors while players in Korea are underperforming and acting like delicate, mute snowflakes.
And the important thing is, even if Huk or ANY OTHER PLAYER does get a "slap on the wrist" in the form of a lower salary, which probably does happen or has happened in the past, you wont hear about it because that's bad publicity for EG, and the players are NDA'd from revealing their salary or specifications about contract negotiations.
The only time you would hear about a lowered salary is if they leave the team.
Why should the salary of players be public information exactly?
Because it helps players negotiate - if ppl knew how bad some salaries were...
I have no idea how much Machine makes in salary, but I'm sure that it would not be enough to live if he didn't get free room and board, or coach on the side.
InControl probably gets paid less from EG than people think as well, but is able to supplement his income with hosting gigs, coaching, a job for his wife, room and board, etc.
the release was pretty much the brutal honest truth, though it could have been fluffed up a bit to make it not so cutting. Im curious to know if puma released a statement. I know that happens alot when players part ways and the team puts out a nice fluffy pr release that the player doesn't agree with, so im wondering if puma has a different take on it. Not saying that their is anything more to the story, just that im curious to see pumas reaction to being released
On March 16 2013 01:40 ACrow wrote: Gl Puma, gl EG
It's funny how they proclaim that it is all in good spirit and they are bff, even philosophize over it, only to go on that they fired him because he didn't agree to a pay cut. Not that it wasn't deserved, ever since 1-1-1 stopped working, he basically disappeared.
Fired? More like he left because he didn't like EG's new offer. They were more than willing to let him stay.
On March 16 2013 01:30 GoodSirTets wrote: If EG starts releasing players who show poor results disproportionate to their high salaries, they're going to have a small roster indeed...
huh? That's why when contracts are up you try to restructure a players contract with less money with more incentives. That way the team up front doesn't take the major hit of taking on a big salary again but the player has the potential to earn close to what they earned the previous year. The problem is players who are performing really badly will not want to do this because they feel that they deserve the same amount they earned the previous year. Same thing happens in sports all the time.
Also if they do get a smaller roster by offloading the heaviest salaries with the lowest return from a player in terms of performance this is only a good thing for EG. They can then invest that money probably at a lower cost for a player who will perform way better then puma has this past 6 months for his results in korea especially in proleague.
i think the way this press release was one is great. Sure Liquid is alot sweeter when they let players go, but thats because Liquid has different intentions in mind when they choose ppl for their teams I believe EG wants results, while Liquid wants potential and "special players" that they can raise on their own, regardless of their current results. Also with machine, he is only good for EG because he is IDra's side kick, and an OG member of EG. Maybe hes done a lot of work in setting the sc division back when it was announced in bw.
Kind of sad news, to me Puma seemed to be the first player in Wings who truely dominated the foreign scene for finite amount of time. Has been a long while since the days of Puma vs Hero, wonder if he'll ever make that kind of impact again?
You all really don't look at the post before you read, nor do you actually think logically when you do read it. If you actually look at the stats and results for that last year or so, it makes complete sense
Puma: Last "Good Result" was MLG Anaheim Last June where he placed in the 5th-6th spot. Honestly, Puma was one of my favorite in EG, but i completely understand the reasoning behind EG not keeping him at his current salary. You can compare it to "American" Football. Do you think all of the NFL teams keep under performing players on their rosters at high salary? No. This is actually good for esports in a way as it melds us closer to sports.
Machine: He hasn't had a good result in ages, but I find it hard to believe that he makes anywhere close to what puma makes. Also, he is probably mainly used as a practice partner such as B-Teamers are for Kespa teams.
Huk: Oh i'm sorry, I forgot huk hasn't had any results lately. I mean, he just got through the up and downs beating flying, fantasy, and center. Regardless of how he played in the ro32, which noted he did take a game off the gsl champion, making it through the up and downs is reason enough to give him a few months to see how he does in HotS. We also don't know if he has taken a restructured deal as well.
IdrA: First of all, people calling for IdrA to be removed from EG are just silly. IdrA is EG. Plus, He really has shown a lot of potential recently that he can make a rebound. The biggest of these comes at the end of last year when he managed to take out Roro and Stephano back to back in his group for the WCS final. I'm sorry but if you think that's not a good accomplishment, then you don't watch starcraft. And then proceeded to lose to 3-1 to rain who at the time was probably in the top 3 of protoss' in the world.
LzGamer(pre-release): The thing that bites at me about LZ is that his results really weren't that poor considering his lack of exposure/practice. I agree that he should have been parted ways with, but towards the end of his career with EG he was actually starting to do better in MLG's almost making it into the final champions loser bracket in both the summer and fall championship.
Suppy: I honestly laughed a little when I saw a few people say Suppy should be released due to his results. The only thing I can think of is that people don't actually watch any tournaments and just like to pretend no one on EG does anything. Lately, Suppy has just won the CSL as his teams ace, beating a korean team consisting on kespa b-teamers. At the end of last year he managed to finish 5-8th in the WCS tournament, being the only player to really even give Parting a hassle. Suppy was one win away from beating Parting, where Scarlett got 3-0'd easily by Parting. Suppy's future is probably the brightest on all of EG other than maybe Stephano. This summer when suppy can devote full time to practice, people should watch out.
Incontrol: I don't think I really need to say anything about Incontrol. He's actually a really nice guy as my friends have been able to work with him each winter doing a charity event "Rumble in the Bronze". I read in the thread that someone had compared him to artosis, and I completely agree. I think He'll start to transition over to casting moreso full time, with occasional attempts to still compete in tournaments such as mlg if he is not casting them. To be a great caster you need to still have a competitive inkling, because that's what makes you better at analyzing the game.
Overall, Please, actually read before you post some of this nonsense that we all are reading in the thread.
Sad new. Hope this helps both parties find something that will fit there goals a little better. Good luck Puma, can't wait to see where you end up next.
So sick, I thought earlier this week this very matter. Puma was really great at times with 1-1-1, good drop play etc but when those strats got countered his results went lacking and the last months he hasnt really been visible anywhere (I might be wrong)
Tough luck for Puma but I bet he will get another team and I hope that EG brings in another terran
Team EG needs to be wise with its money and buy all the top tier players.
Sadly many SC players get to that top .5% and lose focus or fail to adapt to the meta. "Hey i'm a great pro gamer, now i'm just gonna sit back and rela-..-..-.......lose"
On March 15 2013 14:22 Noobity wrote: I kinda assumed this was coming at some point. Sad to hear, but as the press release said there simply weren't the results posting.
I think what's interesting is that while there was the usual fluff (whether true or not is irrelevant) there was a lot of what seems like blatant honesty here, which surprised me. I'm sure everything about Puma being a great teamate and how he'll be missed is all true, don't get me wrong, but to say that he was approached due to results and that he ended up deciding to part ways despite the offers from EG is interesting and a fresh dose of honesty.
I hope he's able to find a team that fits him as well as EG did, and that he's able to start showing the results he used to.
This kind of gives a lot more credibility to the Alive joining EG rumors now. Despite any friendships that were involved, I think Alive would probably show better results in proleague than Puma did.
It is refreshing to see some real reasons and not just the usual fluff from other teams.
eh sad news, but did see this coming for quite a while. Every MLG that puma has been to recently, he just hasn't shown the same fire and consistency in variety and adaptation to the metagame environment in tournaments
You all really don't look at the post before you read, nor do you actually think logically when you do read it. If you actually look at the stats and results for that last year or so, it makes complete sense
Puma: Last "Good Result" was MLG Anaheim Last June where he placed in the 5th-6th spot. Honestly, Puma was one of my favorite in EG, but i completely understand the reasoning behind EG not keeping him at his current salary. You can compare it to "American" Football. Do you think all of the NFL teams keep under performing players on their rosters at high salary? No. This is actually good for esports in a way as it melds us closer to sports.
Machine: He hasn't had a good result in ages, but I find it hard to believe that he makes anywhere close to what puma makes. Also, he is probably mainly used as a practice partner such as B-Teamers are for Kespa teams.
Huk: Oh i'm sorry, I forgot huk hasn't had any results lately. I mean, he just got through the up and downs beating flying, fantasy, and center. Regardless of how he played in the ro32, which noted he did take a game off the gsl champion, making it through the up and downs is reason enough to give him a few months to see how he does in HotS. We also don't know if he has taken a restructured deal as well.
IdrA: First of all, people calling for IdrA to be removed from EG are just silly. IdrA is EG. Plus, He really has shown a lot of potential recently that he can make a rebound. The biggest of these comes at the end of last year when he managed to take out Roro and Stephano back to back in his group for the WCS final. I'm sorry but if you think that's not a good accomplishment, then you don't watch starcraft. And then proceeded to lose to 3-1 to rain who at the time was probably in the top 3 of protoss' in the world.
LzGamer(pre-release): The thing that bites at me about LZ is that his results really weren't that poor considering his lack of exposure/practice. I agree that he should have been parted ways with, but towards the end of his career with EG he was actually starting to do better in MLG's almost making it into the final champions loser bracket in both the summer and fall championship.
Suppy: I honestly laughed a little when I saw a few people say Suppy should be released due to his results. The only thing I can think of is that people don't actually watch any tournaments and just like to pretend no one on EG does anything. Lately, Suppy has just won the CSL as his teams ace, beating a korean team consisting on kespa b-teamers. At the end of last year he managed to finish 5-8th in the WCS tournament, being the only player to really even give Parting a hassle. Suppy was one win away from beating Parting, where Scarlett got 3-0'd easily by Parting. Suppy's future is probably the brightest on all of EG other than maybe Stephano. This summer when suppy can devote full time to practice, people should watch out.
Incontrol: I don't think I really need to say anything about Incontrol. He's actually a really nice guy as my friends have been able to work with him each winter doing a charity event "Rumble in the Bronze". I read in the thread that someone had compared him to artosis, and I completely agree. I think He'll start to transition over to casting moreso full time, with occasional attempts to still compete in tournaments such as mlg if he is not casting them. To be a great caster you need to still have a competitive inkling, because that's what makes you better at analyzing the game.
Overall, Please, actually read before you post some of this nonsense that we all are reading in the thread.
I agree with everything you've said, but it should be remembered that Lz was offered a new contract but turned it down. He wasn't released.
In the end it's the same problem all foreign teams face - they challenge Koreans and as a result are expected to consistently beat Koreans and place above them. Apart from, I would say, about 5-10 foreigners (Stephano, Lucifron, Vortix, Thorzain, Mana and Scarlett being the most consistent) foreigners WILL NOT win an event with large Korean attendance. Expecting players like Idra or Huk - who are still some of the best foreigners in the world - to win major tournaments is ridiculous. Indeed, expecting any foreigner to win major tournaments now is next to impossible with the Kespa players adding to the depth of the Korean talent pool.
Foreign teams need Koreans to win the tournaments - that's what Taeja and HerO do for Liquid, and what Puma used to do for EG. The other players cannot ever be expected to consistently outperform Koreans (except maybe Stephano).
On March 16 2013 01:16 Ctone23 wrote: As a businessman myself, I find it hard to look at this with a lot of objectivity.
Typically if you are in a financial situation where you wish to obtain a higher goal (I.E. Proleague) then you objectively identify weaknesses and efficiency of the entire company (team).
At the end of the day, EG can do whatever they want to. However, my opinion is that they should take a broader approach to identifying goals and pursuing them.
GL Puma
Subjectively, this makes very little sense
Are you saying that Proleague as a goal, is bad for EG?
No, but bad business management could be..
In the article Alex expressed that EG was focusing on Korean events such as Proleague, he then went on to go into how Puma had lackluster results, insinuating Pumas salary vastly overwhelmed his performance.
Meanwhile, back in the US, EG owns a very expensive house with at least two professional players that make absolutely no contribution tournament-wise, which was essentially the basis for letting Puma go (highly contradictory to EG business model, ex. Incontrol casting and what not).
I just thought the article was over the top and seemed to almost bash Puma for all of his efforts, and I wanted to give an honest opinion.
On March 16 2013 01:16 Ctone23 wrote: As a businessman myself, I find it hard to look at this with a lot of objectivity.
Typically if you are in a financial situation where you wish to obtain a higher goal (I.E. Proleague) then you objectively identify weaknesses and efficiency of the entire company (team).
At the end of the day, EG can do whatever they want to. However, my opinion is that they should take a broader approach to identifying goals and pursuing them.
GL Puma
Subjectively, this makes very little sense
Are you saying that Proleague as a goal, is bad for EG?
No, but bad business management could be..
In the article Alex expressed that EG was focusing on Korean events such as Proleague, he then went on to go into how Puma had lackluster results, insinuating Pumas salary vastly overwhelmed his performance.
Meanwhile, back in the US, EG owns a very expensive house with at least two professional players that make absolutely no contribution tournament-wise, which was essentially the basis for letting Puma go (highly contradictory to EG business model, ex. Incontrol casting and what not).
The house costs ~36,000 USD/year to EG according to Scoots, which is "literally nothing". It's located in Phoenix which is why its way cheaper compared to other cities, the players split the costs of utilities and food.
On March 16 2013 01:16 Ctone23 wrote: As a businessman myself, I find it hard to look at this with a lot of objectivity.
Typically if you are in a financial situation where you wish to obtain a higher goal (I.E. Proleague) then you objectively identify weaknesses and efficiency of the entire company (team).
At the end of the day, EG can do whatever they want to. However, my opinion is that they should take a broader approach to identifying goals and pursuing them.
GL Puma
Subjectively, this makes very little sense
Are you saying that Proleague as a goal, is bad for EG?
No, but bad business management could be..
In the article Alex expressed that EG was focusing on Korean events such as Proleague, he then went on to go into how Puma had lackluster results, insinuating Pumas salary vastly overwhelmed his performance.
Meanwhile, back in the US, EG owns a very expensive house with at least two professional players that make absolutely no contribution tournament-wise, which was essentially the basis for letting Puma go (highly contradictory to EG business model, ex. Incontrol casting and what not).
The house costs ~36,000 USD/year to EG according to Scoots, which is "literally nothing". It's located in Phoenix which is why its way cheaper compared to other cities, the players split the costs of utilities and food.
On March 16 2013 01:16 Ctone23 wrote: As a businessman myself, I find it hard to look at this with a lot of objectivity.
Typically if you are in a financial situation where you wish to obtain a higher goal (I.E. Proleague) then you objectively identify weaknesses and efficiency of the entire company (team).
At the end of the day, EG can do whatever they want to. However, my opinion is that they should take a broader approach to identifying goals and pursuing them.
GL Puma
Subjectively, this makes very little sense
Are you saying that Proleague as a goal, is bad for EG?
No, but bad business management could be..
In the article Alex expressed that EG was focusing on Korean events such as Proleague, he then went on to go into how Puma had lackluster results, insinuating Pumas salary vastly overwhelmed his performance.
Meanwhile, back in the US, EG owns a very expensive house with at least two professional players that make absolutely no contribution tournament-wise, which was essentially the basis for letting Puma go (highly contradictory to EG business model, ex. Incontrol casting and what not).
The house costs ~36,000 USD/year to EG according to Scoots, which is "literally nothing". It's located in Phoenix which is why its way cheaper compared to other cities, the players split the costs of utilities and food.
Just listen to the part i pointed out. I quoted scoots when saying Phoenix is cheap to live, but he did mention comparisons, so maybe thats why it's "cheaper". Your argument about the "expensive team house" fails, according to the teams ex-COO.
People who fill these threads with stupid criticisms of other EG players should get warned, or banned outright. It's getting sickening to see every single EG related thread full of bullshit from people who have absolutely no concept of ROI, or don't give a fuck about anything except hating on players they have in their targets.
On March 16 2013 04:04 WolfintheSheep wrote: People who fill these threads with stupid criticisms of other EG players should get warned, or banned outright. It's getting sickening to see every single EG related thread full of bullshit from people who have absolutely no concept of ROI, or don't give a fuck about anything except hating on players they have in their targets.
Thats Teamliquid for you and it won't ever change. Another problem is when you won't bother checking few pages back, where something has most likely explained few times already and still keep spilling something utterly stupid (like stuff about Incontrol)
On March 16 2013 04:09 Ctone23 wrote: @ Grettin What proof do you have other than the "EX-COO" My argument was about the contradictory business model, not Phoenix, Arizona's housing market lol...
I rather believe someone who has worked in the company and who has actually handled things, rather than someone who claims to be a businessman(not that i don't believe you), who most likely won't know much about their (EG's) business.
Should've bolded the part from your previous post, i was simply trying to prove things (from Scoot's pov) concerning the expensive housing part.
Meanwhile, back in the US, EG owns a very expensive house with at least two professional players that make absolutely no contribution tournament-wise, which was essentially the basis for letting Puma go (highly contradictory to EG business model, ex. Incontrol casting and what not).
To be honest, i don't see how the housing part and two guys living there, who doesn't do as well in tournaments as others, has anything to do with Puma's release? It's been explained many times why InControl and even Machine are valuable to the team, despite lack of tournament results. Did i miss something from your post(s)?
On March 16 2013 01:16 Ctone23 wrote: As a businessman myself, I find it hard to look at this with a lot of objectivity.
Typically if you are in a financial situation where you wish to obtain a higher goal (I.E. Proleague) then you objectively identify weaknesses and efficiency of the entire company (team).
At the end of the day, EG can do whatever they want to. However, my opinion is that they should take a broader approach to identifying goals and pursuing them.
GL Puma
Subjectively, this makes very little sense
Are you saying that Proleague as a goal, is bad for EG?
No, but bad business management could be..
In the article Alex expressed that EG was focusing on Korean events such as Proleague, he then went on to go into how Puma had lackluster results, insinuating Pumas salary vastly overwhelmed his performance.
Meanwhile, back in the US, EG owns a very expensive house with at least two professional players that make absolutely no contribution tournament-wise, which was essentially the basis for letting Puma go (highly contradictory to EG business model, ex. Incontrol casting and what not).
The house costs ~36,000 USD/year to EG according to Scoots, which is "literally nothing". It's located in Phoenix which is why its way cheaper compared to other cities, the players split the costs of utilities and food.
If the assumption that Machine gets a fairly low salary is correct, it kind of confuses me why he would stay with EG. He is 25 and his skills even relative to the NA players has declined massively compared to 2010. I would think it would be a better plan to look in pursuing a career outside starcraft but thats not for me to decide. Feels like a massive waste of time unless his salary is not as low as some would assume.
I hate making a post like this but I can't see Machine willing to just stay in EG if he had a low salary like some mention in this thread.
My argument was about the contradictory business model, not Phoenix, Arizona's housing market lol...
Does ending a sentence with lol make you superior?
Do you really want Alex Garfield to bash Puma on how he never contributed to team exposure outside of the game and he isn't worth what he used to cost anymore? Can people not read between the lines? There is a difference between "no fluff" and "being an asshole".
On March 16 2013 01:16 Ctone23 wrote: As a businessman myself, I find it hard to look at this with a lot of objectivity.
Typically if you are in a financial situation where you wish to obtain a higher goal (I.E. Proleague) then you objectively identify weaknesses and efficiency of the entire company (team).
At the end of the day, EG can do whatever they want to. However, my opinion is that they should take a broader approach to identifying goals and pursuing them.
GL Puma
Subjectively, this makes very little sense
Are you saying that Proleague as a goal, is bad for EG?
No, but bad business management could be..
In the article Alex expressed that EG was focusing on Korean events such as Proleague, he then went on to go into how Puma had lackluster results, insinuating Pumas salary vastly overwhelmed his performance.
Meanwhile, back in the US, EG owns a very expensive house with at least two professional players that make absolutely no contribution tournament-wise, which was essentially the basis for letting Puma go (highly contradictory to EG business model, ex. Incontrol casting and what not).
The house costs ~36,000 USD/year to EG according to Scoots, which is "literally nothing". It's located in Phoenix which is why its way cheaper compared to other cities, the players split the costs of utilities and food.
Phoenix is an expensive place to live. On the flip side. They will get the money back when they sell at least.
All in all, good luck to Puma and I hope EG does well.
$36,000 a year is $3000 monthly. The house has at minimum 5 people living in it at a time, which equals to $600/monthly per person. That is beyond cheap for the quality of the living space and use they get out of it. Realistically, 5 college students could rent that place at that price with entry level jobs.
The house provides them with a number of uses, such as living space for players attending MLG from Korean, an international airport and media output. Considering it saves them the cost of hotel rooms and the man hours needed to book those hotel rooms, it is a net gain. It also saves EG money on salary for the US staff members, since they are providing cheap housing(they would need to pay them more to keep them on full time if the staff was renting).
But I am with Grettin, the amateur business experts of TL get annoying and really should be clamped down on. They just spread miss information.
Wow, my jaw physically dropped reading this. I hadn't been watching Proleague due to schedule constraints/HoTS binge-ing, but I didn't expect this. Pretty rough, but that's how esports works, I suppose.
On March 16 2013 01:16 Ctone23 wrote: As a businessman myself, I find it hard to look at this with a lot of objectivity.
Typically if you are in a financial situation where you wish to obtain a higher goal (I.E. Proleague) then you objectively identify weaknesses and efficiency of the entire company (team).
At the end of the day, EG can do whatever they want to. However, my opinion is that they should take a broader approach to identifying goals and pursuing them.
GL Puma
Subjectively, this makes very little sense
Are you saying that Proleague as a goal, is bad for EG?
No, but bad business management could be..
In the article Alex expressed that EG was focusing on Korean events such as Proleague, he then went on to go into how Puma had lackluster results, insinuating Pumas salary vastly overwhelmed his performance.
Meanwhile, back in the US, EG owns a very expensive house with at least two professional players that make absolutely no contribution tournament-wise, which was essentially the basis for letting Puma go (highly contradictory to EG business model, ex. Incontrol casting and what not).
The house costs ~36,000 USD/year to EG according to Scoots, which is "literally nothing". It's located in Phoenix which is why its way cheaper compared to other cities, the players split the costs of utilities and food.
Phoenix is an expensive place to live. On the flip side. They will get the money back when they sell at least.
All in all, good luck to Puma and I hope EG does well.
$36,000 a year is $3000 monthly. The house has at minimum 5 people living in it at a time, which equals to $600/monthly per person. That is beyond cheap for the quality of the living space and use they get out of it. Realistically, 5 college students could rent that place at that price with entry level jobs.
The house provides them with a number of uses, such as living space for players attending MLG from Korean, an international airport and media output. Considering it saves them the cost of hotel rooms and the man hours needed to book those hotel rooms, it is a net gain. It also saves EG money on salary for the US staff members, since they are providing cheap housing(they would need to pay them more to keep them on full time if the staff was renting).
But I am with Grettin, the amateur business experts of TL get annoying and really should be clamped down on. They just spread miss information.
It's silly basing your calculation on the 'minimum of 5 people', given that on average there are a lot more.
On March 16 2013 01:16 Ctone23 wrote: As a businessman myself, I find it hard to look at this with a lot of objectivity.
Typically if you are in a financial situation where you wish to obtain a higher goal (I.E. Proleague) then you objectively identify weaknesses and efficiency of the entire company (team).
At the end of the day, EG can do whatever they want to. However, my opinion is that they should take a broader approach to identifying goals and pursuing them.
GL Puma
Subjectively, this makes very little sense
Are you saying that Proleague as a goal, is bad for EG?
No, but bad business management could be..
In the article Alex expressed that EG was focusing on Korean events such as Proleague, he then went on to go into how Puma had lackluster results, insinuating Pumas salary vastly overwhelmed his performance.
Meanwhile, back in the US, EG owns a very expensive house with at least two professional players that make absolutely no contribution tournament-wise, which was essentially the basis for letting Puma go (highly contradictory to EG business model, ex. Incontrol casting and what not).
The house costs ~36,000 USD/year to EG according to Scoots, which is "literally nothing". It's located in Phoenix which is why its way cheaper compared to other cities, the players split the costs of utilities and food.
Phoenix is an expensive place to live. On the flip side. They will get the money back when they sell at least.
All in all, good luck to Puma and I hope EG does well.
$36,000 a year is $3000 monthly. The house has at minimum 5 people living in it at a time, which equals to $600/monthly per person. That is beyond cheap for the quality of the living space and use they get out of it. Realistically, 5 college students could rent that place at that price with entry level jobs.
The house provides them with a number of uses, such as living space for players attending MLG from Korean, an international airport and media output. Considering it saves them the cost of hotel rooms and the man hours needed to book those hotel rooms, it is a net gain. It also saves EG money on salary for the US staff members, since they are providing cheap housing(they would need to pay them more to keep them on full time if the staff was renting).
But I am with Grettin, the amateur business experts of TL get annoying and really should be clamped down on. They just spread miss information.
It's silly basing your calculation on the 'minimum of 5 people', given that on average there are a lot more.
I know, it is likely way more efficent than what I listed, but I decided to keep is low just to make the point. $36,000 a year is super cheap for any multi-resident house in almost any market.
My argument was about the contradictory business model, not Phoenix, Arizona's housing market lol...
It's only "contradictory" because you're utterly failing at using an kind of critical thought. Why don't you think about what the term "ROI" means, and come back to us once you're willing to provide something reasonable to this thread?
Have to say that this is the best "release"-Statement I read in quite a while (in terms of E-Sports)...and one of the few that looks like an completly honest one (from one side)
Okay, looks like PUMA was not that good anymore to be in such team as EG. What about Machine?Had he ever succeeded? ooor incontrol? okay he is probably doing lots of different stuff.demuslim never shined as well. donno
I'm sad to see PuMa teamless, but that's business I guess. I'm curious if EG picks up anyone soon though. They are becoming pretty strong right now with HotS. In my opinion, I don't see their dropping PuMa as saying he's not good enough so much as saying that he hasn't been able to keep up the pace with the rest of the team in terms of improving on the scene. But as they said, it really all comes down to investment and the cards really weren't with PuMa for them.
I do agree that they should have waited another season to see how PuMa handles HotS at tournaments. DeMuslim is one example of a player that's really starting to emerge very strong in HotS where he wasn't as good in WoL. Of course, that all does remain to be seen as more pros become accustomed to the game as a source of profit.
They could get aLive, but I don't even know if he's better than Puma, even though it would make sense what with EG's penchant for picking up TSL players. They could get Polt, but Polt now has sponsors and wants to stay in the USA, so that's unlikely. If they had been keeping an eye on strong terran players they could have gotten Center, but he found a new team.
If they're interested in buying a player that isn't necessarily a free agent then T8_Cure is a good up and coming player. And Kespa might be okay with Team 8 serving a role of fostering talent for other teams.
I doubt that EG can really just go ahead and acquire any of the super good terrans from eSF, since those wouldn't be allowed to play for a while. As for the main good terrans from KeSPA, like Flash, Innovation, Baby. they did buy Jaedong, but that was before the start of the season and I don't know if KeSPA would be okay with this.
This is all assuming they want a new terran player now that they only have Thorzain left (and Taeja from TL).
On March 16 2013 05:06 p1oneer wrote: Okay, looks like PUMA was not that good anymore to be in such team as EG. What about Machine?Had he ever succeeded? ooor incontrol? okay he is probably doing lots of different stuff.demuslim never shined as well. donno
How about you read the last 28 pages and get a clue?
Eh, that was a dumb statement made by EG. If they release players that no longer perform the way they had in the beginning, then why don't they release idra, incontrol, huk , and all them? Just because Puma's a korean but he isn't as good as the other koreans they have to release him to get ANOTHER better korean? thats pretty dumb if u ask me.... release one of the baddie foreigners and sign a korean.... w/e im out
Not that surprising, kinda stinks for PuMa but i bet plenty of NA teams would be willing to snap him up. I wonder what EG is gonna do with it's spare pile of money. Maybe Oz? It couldn't hurt their Proleague line-up. Maybe even CoCa or Puzzle if their play is still looking solid?
On March 16 2013 05:18 GeNi wrote: Eh, that was a dumb statement made by EG. If they release players that no longer perform the way they had in the beginning, then why don't they release idra, incontrol, huk , and all them? Just because Puma's a korean but he isn't as good as the other koreans they have to release him to get ANOTHER better korean? thats pretty dumb if u ask me.... release one of the baddie foreigners and sign a korean.... w/e im out
Seriously, do people like you even bother thinking about anything you post?
I can understand renegotiating a lower contract. Puma has fallen behind, and unless he start to improve for HoTs if he decides to play HoTs, then he has to show he can be better class then some of the other Koreans and even surpass Stephano. Even though Stephano has declined since joining EG.
On March 16 2013 05:18 GeNi wrote: Eh, that was a dumb statement made by EG. If they release players that no longer perform the way they had in the beginning, then why don't they release idra, incontrol, huk , and all them? Just because Puma's a korean but he isn't as good as the other koreans they have to release him to get ANOTHER better korean? thats pretty dumb if u ask me.... release one of the baddie foreigners and sign a korean.... w/e im out
You are the reason I mostly ignore people with under 100 posts. You clearly didn't read or just decided to not understand and troll your heart out.
On March 16 2013 03:57 HotGlueGun wrote: Pro league putting the squeeze on EG's bankroll. I think KeSPA teams/training style would suit PuMa well.
Didn't really seem to fit him all that well when he played BW. Plus if he's looking for more money than EG would offer then he's not likely to get it from a KeSPA team since I'd say they probably place far less importance on foreign events than EG does.
On March 16 2013 03:57 HotGlueGun wrote: Pro league putting the squeeze on EG's bankroll. I think KeSPA teams/training style would suit PuMa well.
Didn't really seem to fit him all that well when he played BW. Plus if he's looking for more money than EG would offer then he's not likely to get it from a KeSPA team since I'd say they probably place far less importance on foreign events than EG does.
He was definitely half-decent at BW, so I don't get where you'd ever assume that a KeSPA style training regimen wouldn't work for him.
On March 16 2013 03:57 HotGlueGun wrote: Pro league putting the squeeze on EG's bankroll. I think KeSPA teams/training style would suit PuMa well.
Didn't really seem to fit him all that well when he played BW. Plus if he's looking for more money than EG would offer then he's not likely to get it from a KeSPA team since I'd say they probably place far less importance on foreign events than EG does.
He was definitely half-decent at BW, so I don't get where you'd ever assume that a KeSPA style training regimen wouldn't work for him.
On March 16 2013 03:57 HotGlueGun wrote: Pro league putting the squeeze on EG's bankroll. I think KeSPA teams/training style would suit PuMa well.
Didn't really seem to fit him all that well when he played BW. Plus if he's looking for more money than EG would offer then he's not likely to get it from a KeSPA team since I'd say they probably place far less importance on foreign events than EG does.
He was definitely half-decent at BW, so I don't get where you'd ever assume that a KeSPA style training regimen wouldn't work for him.
Wasn't he just a practice partner?
He was part of Estro and later Hite. Afaik, he was mostly a b-teamer. But yes, he was practice partner as well.
On March 16 2013 03:57 HotGlueGun wrote: Pro league putting the squeeze on EG's bankroll. I think KeSPA teams/training style would suit PuMa well.
Didn't really seem to fit him all that well when he played BW. Plus if he's looking for more money than EG would offer then he's not likely to get it from a KeSPA team since I'd say they probably place far less importance on foreign events than EG does.
He was definitely half-decent at BW, so I don't get where you'd ever assume that a KeSPA style training regimen wouldn't work for him.
His success at marathon style tournaments in the foreign scene, together with a somewhat all-inish style and lack of success at preparation based tournaments such as GSL makes me think that he would not succeed at a Kespa team. Let me expand upon this: he would make a very good practice partner for the A teamers, by letting them practice vs a certain build. If coached properly, he might be used as a sniper for a certain map. But I doubt that he would ever become a 'complete' player, even on a Kespa team.
On March 16 2013 03:57 HotGlueGun wrote: Pro league putting the squeeze on EG's bankroll. I think KeSPA teams/training style would suit PuMa well.
Didn't really seem to fit him all that well when he played BW. Plus if he's looking for more money than EG would offer then he's not likely to get it from a KeSPA team since I'd say they probably place far less importance on foreign events than EG does.
He was definitely half-decent at BW, so I don't get where you'd ever assume that a KeSPA style training regimen wouldn't work for him.
His success at marathon style tournaments in the foreign scene, together with a somewhat all-inish style and lack of success at preparation based tournaments such as GSL makes me think that he would not succeed at a Kespa team. Let me expand upon this: he would make a very good practice partner for the A teamers, by letting them practice vs a certain build. If coached properly, he might be used as a sniper for a certain map. But I doubt that he would ever become a 'complete' player, even on a Kespa team.
You pretty much just described Puma in BW. The couple of times he was sent out to snipe in Proleague, his nerves generally got the better of him and he lost.
My argument was about the contradictory business model, not Phoenix, Arizona's housing market lol...
Does ending a sentence with lol make you superior?
Do you really want Alex Garfield to bash Puma on how he never contributed to team exposure outside of the game and he isn't worth what he used to cost anymore? Can people not read between the lines? There is a difference between "no fluff" and "being an asshole".
I thought Alex bashed him enough already, which is why I made the comment about the Team house in Phoenix. I think it's contradictory on more than one count.
I don't think lol at the end of my sentence makes me superior. Quite the opposite after reading my post again.
On March 16 2013 03:57 HotGlueGun wrote: Pro league putting the squeeze on EG's bankroll. I think KeSPA teams/training style would suit PuMa well.
Didn't really seem to fit him all that well when he played BW. Plus if he's looking for more money than EG would offer then he's not likely to get it from a KeSPA team since I'd say they probably place far less importance on foreign events than EG does.
He was definitely half-decent at BW, so I don't get where you'd ever assume that a KeSPA style training regimen wouldn't work for him.
He didn't do anything in BW. He accomplished far more in SC2, under a non-KeSPA team(s). So what's the logic behind thinking a KeSPA team would be a good place for him?
On March 16 2013 05:18 GeNi wrote: Eh, that was a dumb statement made by EG. If they release players that no longer perform the way they had in the beginning, then why don't they release idra, incontrol, huk , and all them? Just because Puma's a korean but he isn't as good as the other koreans they have to release him to get ANOTHER better korean? thats pretty dumb if u ask me.... release one of the baddie foreigners and sign a korean.... w/e im out
Because Idra Incontrol etc still have large fan bases and are great for sponsors. This may shock you but sponsors don't give a fuck how good you are, they care how many Monster Energy drinks you sell.
On March 16 2013 05:05 ArcadeR wrote: Have to say that this is the best "release"-Statement I read in quite a while (in terms of E-Sports)...and one of the few that looks like an completly honest one (from one side)
I agree, there is too much fluff in most of these statements.
This is an excellent statement, it really shows the reasons for letting PuMa go. I loved his 1-1-1 play, but it seemed a bit off in the last 6-8 months.
Thank you PuMa, for all your hard work at EG. And thank you, EG, for dealing with this in a professional matter.
I hope PuMa will eventually find a new team and can get those good results (whether it be in- or outside Korea) again.
On March 16 2013 06:46 spacecoke wrote: Why not drop idra, incontrol, machine and suppy instead if they are serious about proleague?
This has been answered, intelligently, about fifty-eight times before in this thread. I suggest you read at least one or two pages - you might learn something new.
On March 16 2013 06:37 xCherubiMx wrote: Well with that being said, I wonder what idra and incontrol's salaries are in comparison to PuMa? Or any of EG for that matter.
In terms of value, I would say idra and stephano are probably the one's who bring the most revenue for the team, based solely upon their exposure.
People tend to exaggerate Puma's success. When Puma was dominating, it was back when there were very few Koreans playing in foreign tournaments; Puma was one of the firsts. It was natural that he would win a ton, he never did well in the korean scene (gsl, and more recently progleague). He started "declining" when he started to meet more koreans are foreign tournaments. Now, I'm not hating on him, he's a good guy, I like the various transition his hair has gone through, I'm an EG fan, etc etc - but I never saw him as "one of the best terrans at that time (whatever time anybody wants to refer to)"
On March 16 2013 06:46 spacecoke wrote: Why not drop idra, incontrol, machine and suppy instead if they are serious about proleague?
This has been answered, intelligently, about fifty-eight times before in this thread. I suggest you read at least one or two pages - you might learn something new.
The worst part about this question is that the answer is rhetorical, or at least should be if you think about it for 2 minutes...
On March 16 2013 06:50 Zenbrez wrote: People tend to exaggerate Puma's success. When Puma was dominating, it was back when there were very few Koreans playing in foreign tournaments; Puma was one of the firsts. It was natural that he would win a ton, he never did well in the korean scene (gsl, and more recently progleague). He started "declining" when he started to meet more koreans are foreign tournaments. Now, I'm not hating on him, he's a good guy, I like the various transition his hair has gone through, I'm an EG fan, etc etc - but I never saw him as "one of the best terrans at that time (whatever time anybody wants to refer to)"
I'm not sure you know what your talking about. He defeated many Koreans in foreign tournaments, even when Koreans were going coming over in mass.
In NASL Season 1 Puma defeated Clide, aLive, MC, Squirtle and July. He beat HerO at NASL 2. Took first place in both tournaments.
In two MLG apperances, he defeated Nada, Moonan, and Polt. He took 5th and 7th place.
At ASUS ROG winter he defeated Lucky. He took 3rd place.
At IEM Cologne, he defeated MC. He took first place.
At the IEM VI Championship he defeated Killer, Zenio, MMA, JYP, taking second place to MC.
At the IPL 4 Qualifiers he defeated Oz, Alicia, Noblesse and Symbol. He took second place to Alive.
At IPL 4 he defeated Creator, and though he went out with a 1-3 record, that was the same record MC, JYP and Parting went out with in the same tournament.
To say he was declining when he started to meet Koreans at foreign tournaments is incorrect. He was just as good as any Code S player in his prime. He had winning record vs Koreans in foreign tournaments.
On March 16 2013 03:57 HotGlueGun wrote: Pro league putting the squeeze on EG's bankroll. I think KeSPA teams/training style would suit PuMa well.
Didn't really seem to fit him all that well when he played BW. Plus if he's looking for more money than EG would offer then he's not likely to get it from a KeSPA team since I'd say they probably place far less importance on foreign events than EG does.
He was definitely half-decent at BW, so I don't get where you'd ever assume that a KeSPA style training regimen wouldn't work for him.
He didn't do anything in BW. He accomplished far more in SC2, under a non-KeSPA team(s). So what's the logic behind thinking a KeSPA team would be a good place for him?
Which team Puma made results under is completely irrelevant. The reason all the B-teamers from BW who switched to SC2 early on dominated the scene is because they already had solid mechanics and general RTS game sense. It's not because they went from a KeSPA team to a non-KeSPA team, that's completely retarded. Basically he made the switch to SC2, had to leave his KeSPA team to do it, and became a great player for a while because of his BW experience. It takes a lot of work to even get on the B-team so he'd certainly do fine if he were in that environment again.
On March 16 2013 06:37 xCherubiMx wrote: Well with that being said, I wonder what idra and incontrol's salaries are in comparison to PuMa? Or any of EG for that matter.
In terms of value, I would say idra and stephano are probably the one's who bring the most revenue for the team, based solely upon their exposure.
Errr....Jaedong brings more to EG than both of them put together
On March 16 2013 06:46 spacecoke wrote: Why not drop idra, incontrol, machine and suppy instead if they are serious about proleague?
This has been answered, intelligently, about fifty-eight times before in this thread. I suggest you read at least one or two pages - you might learn something new.
The worst part about this question is that the answer is rhetorical, or at least should be if you think about it for 2 minutes...
On March 16 2013 06:50 Zenbrez wrote: People tend to exaggerate Puma's success. When Puma was dominating, it was back when there were very few Koreans playing in foreign tournaments; Puma was one of the firsts. It was natural that he would win a ton, he never did well in the korean scene (gsl, and more recently progleague). He started "declining" when he started to meet more koreans are foreign tournaments. Now, I'm not hating on him, he's a good guy, I like the various transition his hair has gone through, I'm an EG fan, etc etc - but I never saw him as "one of the best terrans at that time (whatever time anybody wants to refer to)"
I'm not sure you know what your talking about. He defeated many Koreans in foreign tournaments, even when Koreans were going coming over in mass.
In NASL Season 1 Puma defeated Clide, aLive, MC, Squirtle and July. He beat HerO at NASL 2.
In two MLG apperances, he defeated Nada, Moonan, and Polt.
At ASUS ROG winter he defeated Lucky.
At IEM Cologne, he defeated MC.
At the IEM VI Championship he defeated Killer, Zenio, MMA, JYP, taking second place to MC.
At the IPL 4 Qualifiers he defeated Oz, Alicia, Noblesse and Symbol.
To say he was declining when he started to meet Koreans at foreign tournaments is just ignorant.
On March 16 2013 06:46 spacecoke wrote: Why not drop idra, incontrol, machine and suppy instead if they are serious about proleague?
This has been answered, intelligently, about fifty-eight times before in this thread. I suggest you read at least one or two pages - you might learn something new.
The worst part about this question is that the answer is rhetorical, or at least should be if you think about it for 2 minutes...
On March 16 2013 06:50 Zenbrez wrote: People tend to exaggerate Puma's success. When Puma was dominating, it was back when there were very few Koreans playing in foreign tournaments; Puma was one of the firsts. It was natural that he would win a ton, he never did well in the korean scene (gsl, and more recently progleague). He started "declining" when he started to meet more koreans are foreign tournaments. Now, I'm not hating on him, he's a good guy, I like the various transition his hair has gone through, I'm an EG fan, etc etc - but I never saw him as "one of the best terrans at that time (whatever time anybody wants to refer to)"
I'm not sure you know what your talking about. He defeated many Koreans in foreign tournaments, even when Koreans were going coming over in mass.
In NASL Season 1 Puma defeated Clide, aLive, MC, Squirtle and July. He beat HerO at NASL 2.
In two MLG apperances, he defeated Nada, Moonan, and Polt.
At ASUS ROG winter he defeated Lucky.
At IEM Cologne, he defeated MC.
At the IEM VI Championship he defeated Killer, Zenio, MMA, JYP, taking second place to MC.
At the IPL 4 Qualifiers he defeated Oz, Alicia, Noblesse and Symbol.
To say he was declining when he started to meet Koreans at foreign tournaments is just ignorant.
On March 16 2013 06:37 xCherubiMx wrote: Well with that being said, I wonder what idra and incontrol's salaries are in comparison to PuMa? Or any of EG for that matter.
In terms of value, I would say idra and stephano are probably the one's who bring the most revenue for the team, based solely upon their exposure.
Errr....Jaedong brings more to EG than both of them put together
JD hasn't really done that much in SC2. Idra and Stephano consistently draw more stream numbers. And in terms of results, Stephano has JD beat in foreign tournamens, SPL, and the GSL in addition to bringing significantly more exposure to sponsors. I believe that once JD finds his footing in SC2, he'll be one of the most valuable assets for EG, but he's not at that point yet.
On March 16 2013 03:57 HotGlueGun wrote: Pro league putting the squeeze on EG's bankroll. I think KeSPA teams/training style would suit PuMa well.
Didn't really seem to fit him all that well when he played BW. Plus if he's looking for more money than EG would offer then he's not likely to get it from a KeSPA team since I'd say they probably place far less importance on foreign events than EG does.
He was definitely half-decent at BW, so I don't get where you'd ever assume that a KeSPA style training regimen wouldn't work for him.
He didn't do anything in BW. He accomplished far more in SC2, under a non-KeSPA team(s). So what's the logic behind thinking a KeSPA team would be a good place for him?
Which team Puma made results under is completely irrelevant. The reason all the B-teamers from BW who switched to SC2 early on dominated the scene is because they already had solid mechanics and general RTS game sense. It's not because they went from a KeSPA team to a non-KeSPA team, that's completely retarded. Basically he made the switch to SC2, had to leave his KeSPA team to do it, and became a great player for a while because of his BW experience. It takes a lot of work to even get on the B-team so he'd certainly do fine if he were in that environment again.
Plenty of ex-BW players switched to SC2 around that time and failed to achieve his level of results. If he's more suited than average to a "KeSPA-style training regimen" then wouldn't we expect his results after switching to SC2 to go down relative to his peers, rather than up?
Pretty sad considering how now that HOTS is out there is even more potential for early aggression builds and the 1/1/1 is stronger as well thanks to a lack of siege tech required and the Raven buff.
We need more players like Puma, Terrans that 1 rax FE almost every game and just sit back and macro are boring to watch. He abused Terrans strengths to the max and profited on strong timings.
On March 16 2013 06:37 xCherubiMx wrote: Well with that being said, I wonder what idra and incontrol's salaries are in comparison to PuMa? Or any of EG for that matter.
In terms of value, I would say idra and stephano are probably the one's who bring the most revenue for the team, based solely upon their exposure.
Errr....Jaedong brings more to EG than both of them put together
What? not only does he not stream as much as those two, he typically doesnt get as many viewers as those two either. Whats the basis for your argument here?
On March 16 2013 06:37 xCherubiMx wrote: Well with that being said, I wonder what idra and incontrol's salaries are in comparison to PuMa? Or any of EG for that matter.
In terms of value, I would say idra and stephano are probably the one's who bring the most revenue for the team, based solely upon their exposure.
Errr....Jaedong brings more to EG than both of them put together
What? not only does he not stream as much as those two, he typically doesnt get as many viewers as those two either. Whats the basis for your argument here?
only reason people watch idra and stephano is because they have a boner for white people
On March 16 2013 06:37 xCherubiMx wrote: Well with that being said, I wonder what idra and incontrol's salaries are in comparison to PuMa? Or any of EG for that matter.
In terms of value, I would say idra and stephano are probably the one's who bring the most revenue for the team, based solely upon their exposure.
Errr....Jaedong brings more to EG than both of them put together
What? not only does he not stream as much as those two, he typically doesnt get as many viewers as those two either. Whats the basis for your argument here?
only reason people watch idra and stephano is because they have a boner for white people
User was temp banned for this post.
Honestly, I was watching JD's stream last night, and while he plays fucking fast he isn't that good at SC2 yet. IdrA and Stephano are still better and more fun to watch (especially when IdrA commentates).
But once JD's catches up, I'll probably be chained to his stream.
On March 16 2013 06:46 spacecoke wrote: Why not drop idra, incontrol, machine and suppy instead if they are serious about proleague?
This has been answered, intelligently, about fifty-eight times before in this thread. I suggest you read at least one or two pages - you might learn something new.
The worst part about this question is that the answer is rhetorical, or at least should be if you think about it for 2 minutes...
On March 16 2013 06:50 Zenbrez wrote: People tend to exaggerate Puma's success. When Puma was dominating, it was back when there were very few Koreans playing in foreign tournaments; Puma was one of the firsts. It was natural that he would win a ton, he never did well in the korean scene (gsl, and more recently progleague). He started "declining" when he started to meet more koreans are foreign tournaments. Now, I'm not hating on him, he's a good guy, I like the various transition his hair has gone through, I'm an EG fan, etc etc - but I never saw him as "one of the best terrans at that time (whatever time anybody wants to refer to)"
I'm not sure you know what your talking about. He defeated many Koreans in foreign tournaments, even when Koreans were going coming over in mass.
In NASL Season 1 Puma defeated Clide, aLive, MC, Squirtle and July. He beat HerO at NASL 2.
In two MLG apperances, he defeated Nada, Moonan, and Polt.
At ASUS ROG winter he defeated Lucky.
At IEM Cologne, he defeated MC.
At the IEM VI Championship he defeated Killer, Zenio, MMA, JYP, taking second place to MC.
At the IPL 4 Qualifiers he defeated Oz, Alicia, Noblesse and Symbol.
To say he was declining when he started to meet Koreans at foreign tournaments is just ignorant.
I don't think Korean teams will look to sign him considering he accomplished nothing within Korea itsself. Also foreign teams probably aren't going to be as interested in him considering the money he probably wants . I mean i doubt the EG deal he turned down was something he's going to get anytime soon again .
On March 15 2013 14:14 HeeroFX wrote: I was thinking Machine, and Huk would be the first to go honestly.
It's refreshing to see a team run more like a business than one big LAN party; that's why EG has been around so long. Hopefully it sends a message community that its not all fun and games: Friends or not...food, lodging, airfare and salary all cost a pretty penny. It's too bad for Puma but, much like any job, you are there to perform.
On March 16 2013 06:46 spacecoke wrote: Why not drop idra, incontrol, machine and suppy instead if they are serious about proleague?
This has been answered, intelligently, about fifty-eight times before in this thread. I suggest you read at least one or two pages - you might learn something new.
The worst part about this question is that the answer is rhetorical, or at least should be if you think about it for 2 minutes...
On March 16 2013 06:50 Zenbrez wrote: People tend to exaggerate Puma's success. When Puma was dominating, it was back when there were very few Koreans playing in foreign tournaments; Puma was one of the firsts. It was natural that he would win a ton, he never did well in the korean scene (gsl, and more recently progleague). He started "declining" when he started to meet more koreans are foreign tournaments. Now, I'm not hating on him, he's a good guy, I like the various transition his hair has gone through, I'm an EG fan, etc etc - but I never saw him as "one of the best terrans at that time (whatever time anybody wants to refer to)"
I'm not sure you know what your talking about. He defeated many Koreans in foreign tournaments, even when Koreans were going coming over in mass.
In NASL Season 1 Puma defeated Clide, aLive, MC, Squirtle and July. He beat HerO at NASL 2.
In two MLG apperances, he defeated Nada, Moonan, and Polt.
At ASUS ROG winter he defeated Lucky.
At IEM Cologne, he defeated MC.
At the IEM VI Championship he defeated Killer, Zenio, MMA, JYP, taking second place to MC.
At the IPL 4 Qualifiers he defeated Oz, Alicia, Noblesse and Symbol.
To say he was declining when he started to meet Koreans at foreign tournaments is just ignorant.
My name is Chris, fancy meeting you. How are you?
I'm fine thanks, my name is Alex.
My brother's name is Alex, actually. Awesome.
And that means your brother would have been smart enough to look up Puma's performance vs Koreans in foreign tournaments... because it was good.
Of course PuMa is still way better than all of the Foreigners on EG, but he has no personality at all what makes it impossible to generate money out of him.
On March 16 2013 13:15 Talos[GER] wrote: Of course PuMa is still way better than all of the Foreigners on EG, but he has no personality at all what makes it impossible to generate money out of him.
On March 16 2013 13:15 Talos[GER] wrote: Of course PuMa is still way better than all of the Foreigners on EG, but he has no personality at all what makes it impossible to generate money out of him.
I would say that Stephano, DeMuslim, IdrA, Thorzain, and maybe Huk are all better than Puma.
On March 16 2013 13:43 Patate wrote: Pretty funny how Koreans need to perform in EG while foreigners can go almost 3 years without winning anything and they don't get bothered.
Machine .. Incontrol.. I'm looking at you.
Hell, even IdrA and Huk have been irrelevant for the past year or so.
This has been explained multiple times. The foreigners who are still on the team bring a lot of views on streams and are good advertisements for the sponsors of EG. Meanwhile a Korean who speaks little to no English would not be the first choice for an American company's web advertisement. Yes, Puma needed to perform and he didn't. Incontrol gets more stream views than JD and machine seems to do the commercials really well. That is why they're around and Puma isn't. Idra, Huk, Thorzain, and Stephano all have better victories in events and are watched by more people.
On March 16 2013 13:43 Patate wrote: Pretty funny how Koreans need to perform in EG while foreigners can go almost 3 years without winning anything and they don't get bothered.
Machine .. Incontrol.. I'm looking at you.
Hell, even IdrA and Huk have been irrelevant for the past year or so.
This has been explained multiple times. The foreigners who are still on the team bring a lot of views on streams and are good advertisements for the sponsors of EG. Meanwhile a Korean who speaks little to no English would not be the first choice for an American company's web advertisement. Yes, Puma needed to perform and he didn't. Incontrol gets more stream views than JD and machine seems to do the commercials really well. That is why they're around and Puma isn't. Idra, Huk, Thorzain, and Stephano all have better victories in events and are watched by more people.
Plus this release comes down to salary. Puma wasn't performing so eg wanted to pay him less and they couldn't reach an agreement on what "less" was. I doubt Machine/Incontrol get paid what ever Puma wanted, it's all about how much of an investment a player is worth not a binary on the team/off the team.
Shiiiiiit, the 1-1-1 aint weak no more! free seige! I think theres a lot to be said about the return of 1 rax 1 fact 1 port gameplay. I honestly think with the free seige you can play slightly greedier with the gas because you get that first tank out so fast. Puma do your thing bro! hope to see you on another team in the future if thats your wish.
On March 16 2013 13:43 Patate wrote: Pretty funny how Koreans need to perform in EG while foreigners can go almost 3 years without winning anything and they don't get bothered.
Machine .. Incontrol.. I'm looking at you.
Hell, even IdrA and Huk have been irrelevant for the past year or so.
pretty funny how you don't know how the real world works
On March 16 2013 13:43 Patate wrote: Pretty funny how Koreans need to perform in EG while foreigners can go almost 3 years without winning anything and they don't get bothered.
Machine .. Incontrol.. I'm looking at you.
Hell, even IdrA and Huk have been irrelevant for the past year or so.
This has been explained multiple times. The foreigners who are still on the team bring a lot of views on streams and are good advertisements for the sponsors of EG. Meanwhile a Korean who speaks little to no English would not be the first choice for an American company's web advertisement. Yes, Puma needed to perform and he didn't. Incontrol gets more stream views than JD and machine seems to do the commercials really well. That is why they're around and Puma isn't. Idra, Huk, Thorzain, and Stephano all have better victories in events and are watched by more people.
but machine has so little viewers compared to the rest of the EG folks?
On March 16 2013 13:43 Patate wrote: Pretty funny how Koreans need to perform in EG while foreigners can go almost 3 years without winning anything and they don't get bothered.
Machine .. Incontrol.. I'm looking at you.
Hell, even IdrA and Huk have been irrelevant for the past year or so.
holy shit your dumb been said a million times why those players are the team it's not all about result....
On March 16 2013 13:43 Patate wrote: Pretty funny how Koreans need to perform in EG while foreigners can go almost 3 years without winning anything and they don't get bothered.
Machine .. Incontrol.. I'm looking at you.
Hell, even IdrA and Huk have been irrelevant for the past year or so.
This has been explained multiple times. The foreigners who are still on the team bring a lot of views on streams and are good advertisements for the sponsors of EG. Meanwhile a Korean who speaks little to no English would not be the first choice for an American company's web advertisement. Yes, Puma needed to perform and he didn't. Incontrol gets more stream views than JD and machine seems to do the commercials really well. That is why they're around and Puma isn't. Idra, Huk, Thorzain, and Stephano all have better victories in events and are watched by more people.
but machine has so little viewers compared to the rest of the EG folks?
Machine is an odd one, I must agree to have on their team. Not only has he never performed adequately, but he rarely has more than 200 viewers when he streams, and to my memory has only done 1 promotion for their sponsors - not a very active fellow. I'm not judging EG for keeping him, they're one of the few teams that know how to properly run a business so if they think its worth keeping him, that's cool.
They cut out Strifecro and Axslav, so they must care to some degree. But people that bitch how EG keeping Huk, Incontrol and Idra are just stupid and/or are just personal haters. Because those 3 (or at least 2 of them) are one of EGs biggest attractors, it literally makes no sense to have them leave the team. This is all in the sc2 division anyway.. I'm sure Alex is going to be talking about League's massive audience and their LoL team now when he's presenting to potential sponsors
GJ Puma, you did very respectable under the EG banner, good luck in the future. Everything eventually comes to an end, and for koreans that dont perform, well that speaks for itself.
EG has a big roster with huge salaries, cutting those who don't perform is just common sense. I think EG and TL are very lenient with their players, probably because performance is only a small part of the equation. Personalities such as Huk are useful for a team, even if he's not the dominant player he once was, same thing for Incontrol Demuslim etc. Those players have a big fan base and that's what matters the most I suppose. Machine probably doesn't have Puma money.
On March 16 2013 17:21 Cygoris wrote: EG has a big roster with huge salaries, cutting those who don't perform is just common sense. I think EG and TL are very lenient with their players, probably because performance is only a small part of the equation. Personalities such as Huk are useful for a team, even if he's not the dominant player he once was, same thing for Incontrol Demuslim etc. Those players have a big fan base and that's what matters the most I suppose. Machine probably doesn't have Puma money.
Im thinking machine is kinda the glue that holds the team tgthr behind the scenes
On March 16 2013 17:21 Cygoris wrote: EG has a big roster with huge salaries, cutting those who don't perform is just common sense. I think EG and TL are very lenient with their players, probably because performance is only a small part of the equation. Personalities such as Huk are useful for a team, even if he's not the dominant player he once was, same thing for Incontrol Demuslim etc. Those players have a big fan base and that's what matters the most I suppose. Machine probably doesn't have Puma money.
Im thinking machine is kinda the glue that holds the team tgthr behind the scenes
Exactly this. He comes across as the nice guy everyone gets along with. Every team needs someone like that.
Steve McManaman was never as good as the players he played with at Real Madrid but is often credited for keeping the team united. Del Bosque said he was one of the most important players in his squad. Some things are more important than just individual results.
On March 16 2013 17:21 Cygoris wrote: EG has a big roster with huge salaries, cutting those who don't perform is just common sense. I think EG and TL are very lenient with their players, probably because performance is only a small part of the equation. Personalities such as Huk are useful for a team, even if he's not the dominant player he once was, same thing for Incontrol Demuslim etc. Those players have a big fan base and that's what matters the most I suppose. Machine probably doesn't have Puma money.
Im thinking machine is kinda the glue that holds the team tgthr behind the scenes
Exactly this. He comes across as the nice guy everyone gets along with. Every team needs someone like that.
Steve McManaman was never as good as the players he played with at Real Madrid but is often credited for keeping the team united. Del Bosque said he was one of the most important players in his squad. Some things are more important than just individual results.
Plus we don't know how much salary he gets. Perhaps he just lives there for free and gets a very small salary.
On March 16 2013 17:21 Cygoris wrote: EG has a big roster with huge salaries, cutting those who don't perform is just common sense. I think EG and TL are very lenient with their players, probably because performance is only a small part of the equation. Personalities such as Huk are useful for a team, even if he's not the dominant player he once was, same thing for Incontrol Demuslim etc. Those players have a big fan base and that's what matters the most I suppose. Machine probably doesn't have Puma money.
Im thinking machine is kinda the glue that holds the team tgthr behind the scenes
Exactly this. He comes across as the nice guy everyone gets along with. Every team needs someone like that.
Steve McManaman was never as good as the players he played with at Real Madrid but is often credited for keeping the team united. Del Bosque said he was one of the most important players in his squad. Some things are more important than just individual results.
Plus we don't know how much salary he gets. Perhaps he just lives there for free and gets a very small salary.
From everything I've heard, Machine is a very minimal "expense" for EG, and in return EG get a guy who lives there, streams hundreds of hours of content at grandmaster level, and is apparently the nicest guy on earth, so much so that the entire industry likes him.
On March 16 2013 13:43 Patate wrote: Pretty funny how Koreans need to perform in EG while foreigners can go almost 3 years without winning anything and they don't get bothered.
Machine .. Incontrol.. I'm looking at you.
Hell, even IdrA and Huk have been irrelevant for the past year or so.
This has been explained multiple times. The foreigners who are still on the team bring a lot of views on streams and are good advertisements for the sponsors of EG. Meanwhile a Korean who speaks little to no English would not be the first choice for an American company's web advertisement. Yes, Puma needed to perform and he didn't. Incontrol gets more stream views than JD and machine seems to do the commercials really well. That is why they're around and Puma isn't. Idra, Huk, Thorzain, and Stephano all have better victories in events and are watched by more people.
but machine has so little viewers compared to the rest of the EG folks?
Machine is an odd one, I must agree to have on their team. Not only has he never performed adequately, but he rarely has more than 200 viewers when he streams, and to my memory has only done 1 promotion for their sponsors - not a very active fellow. I'm not judging EG for keeping him, they're one of the few teams that know how to properly run a business so if they think its worth keeping him, that's cool.
Just as a small correction, he's actually done a pretty decent amount of content. The Halloween Kingston commerical is a classic, and the Neglected Computers ad is fantastic. He was in Most Evil Genius, he's on Unburrowed every time they do one, and he's got that Machine v Food thing on their Youtube (which is fantastic, by the way).
Probably Puma beat EG's member in some event for this unfair movement, personally I think so many overhyped player in EG now..., and still enjoying their position...
On March 16 2013 13:15 Talos[GER] wrote: Of course PuMa is still way better than all of the Foreigners on EG, but he has no personality at all what makes it impossible to generate money out of him.
I would say that Stephano, DeMuslim, IdrA, Thorzain, and maybe Huk are all better than Puma.
Bullshit... especially Demu, Idra and Thorzain even lose against foreigners.
On March 16 2013 13:43 Patate wrote: Pretty funny how Koreans need to perform in EG while foreigners can go almost 3 years without winning anything and they don't get bothered.
Machine .. Incontrol.. I'm looking at you.
Hell, even IdrA and Huk have been irrelevant for the past year or so.
This has been explained multiple times. The foreigners who are still on the team bring a lot of views on streams and are good advertisements for the sponsors of EG. Meanwhile a Korean who speaks little to no English would not be the first choice for an American company's web advertisement. Yes, Puma needed to perform and he didn't. Incontrol gets more stream views than JD and machine seems to do the commercials really well. That is why they're around and Puma isn't. Idra, Huk, Thorzain, and Stephano all have better victories in events and are watched by more people.
but machine has so little viewers compared to the rest of the EG folks?
Machine is an odd one, I must agree to have on their team. Not only has he never performed adequately, but he rarely has more than 200 viewers when he streams, and to my memory has only done 1 promotion for their sponsors - not a very active fellow. I'm not judging EG for keeping him, they're one of the few teams that know how to properly run a business so if they think its worth keeping him, that's cool.
Just as a small correction, he's actually done a pretty decent amount of content. The Halloween Kingston commerical is a classic, and the Neglected Computers ad is fantastic. He was in Most Evil Genius, he's on Unburrowed every time they do one, and he's got that Machine v Food thing on their Youtube (which is fantastic, by the way).
Yeah ... they're never getting rid of Machine. Him and InControl are the only two founding members left, and have been on the team for close to four years now.
It's pretty obvious that Machine is the type of guy that has done everything management asks him to do, so unless he suddenly shits the bed or demands more money there's no reason not to keep him around. LZ would still be on the team too if he didn't want a better contract.
And I think InControl's and Machine's friendship with IdrA might have been a deciding factor in IdrA choosing EG over TL after his contract expired with CJ Entus.
I'm gonna drop a conspiracy theory guys. Puma was part of TSL, EG now has Revival, JYP and possibly Alive soon. Puma gets sent to another team to send them to their doom. EG picks up said team's players. #Dirtymoney #evil #geniuses #fuckslasher.
On March 16 2013 13:15 Talos[GER] wrote: Of course PuMa is still way better than all of the Foreigners on EG, but he has no personality at all what makes it impossible to generate money out of him.
I would say that Stephano, DeMuslim, IdrA, Thorzain, and maybe Huk are all better than Puma.
Bullshit... especially Demu, Idra and Thorzain even lose against foreigners.
I don't get your point. With the level of play Puma's shown lately I doubt he would get far in an all foreigner event. I mean he's played worse than Thorzain in SPL, and Thorzain's a mid-tier foreigner.
On March 17 2013 02:35 14fighter wrote: I'm gonna drop a conspiracy theory guys. Puma was part of TSL, EG now has Revival, JYP and possibly Alive soon. Puma gets sent to another team to send them to their doom. EG picks up said team's players. #Dirtymoney #evil #geniuses #fuckslasher.
Not being funny but Puma was worth so much more than machine and this is not a dig at machine but i feel quite sorry for Puma considering he gets dropped when other members of EG are not pulling their weight as much as he did.
Anyway i wish both sides of this the best of luck.
On March 16 2013 13:43 Patate wrote: Pretty funny how Koreans need to perform in EG while foreigners can go almost 3 years without winning anything and they don't get bothered.
Machine .. Incontrol.. I'm looking at you.
Hell, even IdrA and Huk have been irrelevant for the past year or so.
This has been explained multiple times. The foreigners who are still on the team bring a lot of views on streams and are good advertisements for the sponsors of EG. Meanwhile a Korean who speaks little to no English would not be the first choice for an American company's web advertisement. Yes, Puma needed to perform and he didn't. Incontrol gets more stream views than JD and machine seems to do the commercials really well. That is why they're around and Puma isn't. Idra, Huk, Thorzain, and Stephano all have better victories in events and are watched by more people.
but machine has so little viewers compared to the rest of the EG folks?
Again everyone in this world does something well. For machine it is probably how popular he is amongst the team and staff of EG as well as being a good representative for the commercials. In the ADs I've seen him in he has done a better job than any other EG member except maybe Huk.
On March 16 2013 13:43 Patate wrote: Pretty funny how Koreans need to perform in EG while foreigners can go almost 3 years without winning anything and they don't get bothered.
Machine .. Incontrol.. I'm looking at you.
Hell, even IdrA and Huk have been irrelevant for the past year or so.
This has been explained multiple times. The foreigners who are still on the team bring a lot of views on streams and are good advertisements for the sponsors of EG. Meanwhile a Korean who speaks little to no English would not be the first choice for an American company's web advertisement. Yes, Puma needed to perform and he didn't. Incontrol gets more stream views than JD and machine seems to do the commercials really well. That is why they're around and Puma isn't. Idra, Huk, Thorzain, and Stephano all have better victories in events and are watched by more people.
Plus this release comes down to salary. Puma wasn't performing so eg wanted to pay him less and they couldn't reach an agreement on what "less" was. I doubt Machine/Incontrol get paid what ever Puma wanted, it's all about how much of an investment a player is worth not a binary on the team/off the team.
Maybe machine doesn't make as much as what puma wanted, but I think that Incontrol probably makes a bunch more than either of them. Of course nobody knows, but puma when he bargained for his original contract was the first Korean on EG (i think?) and at that what was he going to compare EG's offer to? He was a B-teamer in BW and I don't remember where he was at the beginning of SC2, but I would guess he didn't have a salary in either situation.
Maybe machine doesn't make as much as what puma wanted, but I think that Incontrol probably makes a bunch more than either of them. Of course nobody knows, but puma when he bargained for his original contract was the first Korean on EG (i think?) and at that what was he going to compare EG's offer to? He was a B-teamer in BW and I don't remember where he was at the beginning of SC2, but I would guess he didn't have a salary in either situation.
I think InControl probably makes much more than Machine — but not directly from EG, rather through hosting, coaching and other gigs. InControl gives EG tons of exposure, while EG subsidizes his cost of living and travel while giving him the credibility of being on a pro-team. It's a win-win for both sides.
Maybe machine doesn't make as much as what puma wanted, but I think that Incontrol probably makes a bunch more than either of them. Of course nobody knows, but puma when he bargained for his original contract was the first Korean on EG (i think?) and at that what was he going to compare EG's offer to? He was a B-teamer in BW and I don't remember where he was at the beginning of SC2, but I would guess he didn't have a salary in either situation.
I think InControl probably makes much more than Machine — but not directly from EG, rather through hosting, coaching and other gigs. InControl gives EG tons of exposure, while EG subsidizes his cost of living and travel while giving him the credibility of being on a pro-team. It's a win-win for both sides.
You're thinking in a world that is KESPA esports and not US/EU esports. Incontrol has serious value to EG because of what he does on stream, at events, on shows. The EG name is constantly out there and because EG's name is out there so are their sponsors. Now, perhaps he doesn't get as much of a paycheck as EG's top tier foreign players, but I would guess that they appreciate him enough that he receives just barely under the other foreign players. Then, on top of that yes, he has outside income, but EG can't use that against him in his contract because while he is doing the stream, he is representing EG and while he is casting again he is representing EG. He is though probably the trickiest to guess what he would actually be worth, but if you think the pay scale is based solely off of skill level you are mistaken.
Maybe machine doesn't make as much as what puma wanted, but I think that Incontrol probably makes a bunch more than either of them. Of course nobody knows, but puma when he bargained for his original contract was the first Korean on EG (i think?) and at that what was he going to compare EG's offer to? He was a B-teamer in BW and I don't remember where he was at the beginning of SC2, but I would guess he didn't have a salary in either situation.
I think InControl probably makes much more than Machine — but not directly from EG, rather through hosting, coaching and other gigs. InControl gives EG tons of exposure, while EG subsidizes his cost of living and travel while giving him the credibility of being on a pro-team. It's a win-win for both sides.
You're thinking in a world that is KESPA esports and not US/EU esports. Incontrol has serious value to EG because of what he does on stream, at events, on shows. The EG name is constantly out there and because EG's name is out there so are their sponsors. Now, perhaps he doesn't get as much of a paycheck as EG's top tier foreign players, but I would guess that they appreciate him enough that he receives just barely under the other foreign players. Then, on top of that yes, he has outside income, but EG can't use that against him in his contract because while he is doing the stream, he is representing EG and while he is casting again he is representing EG. He is though probably the trickiest to guess what he would actually be worth, but if you think the pay scale is based solely off of skill level you are mistaken.
The fact that Incontrol DOES do all those things means he also has leverage and negotiating power, similar to someone who's just a good player. If he isn't satisfied with the money he gets from EG in their next contract renewal and thinks he can do better, he could easily get the same or similar gig at a competing organization if he feels he can get more money from them. Say Azubu, for example. They have rather deep pockets and they'd probably LOVE to get someone like Incontrol to advertise their new streaming service and cast events using that service. And on top of the fact that they could offer a lot of money for his streaming services, this would probably at least disappoint Twitch, who are one of EG's sponsors (I'm might be wrong on this, correct me if I'm wrong).
And like EG, they have teams on multiple games. So now he's hyping up Team Azubu over EG on multiple games. And people are seeing more of Azubu's sponsors when Incontrol goes on State of the Game and such. So some of the sponsors are less happy.
So EG has incentive not to undercut Incontrol and give him a fair offer when contract negotiations come around.
He deserves better than EG. Sorry to hurt feelings, but EG has good financial backing, I'll give em that but honestly if I wanted to get better at sc2 and compete in GSL+Proleague, EG is the last place I'm looking. That place is cursed, the Cleveland Cavs of esports, seriously.
Yep.. I said a while ago that Puma will fade from the scene, he has no results, and I was bashed for awhile on other forums for saying he is overrated when casters go apeshit about Puma being top class..
I knew eventually he'd be dropped cause he wasn't popular either as a personality, not every player can be an idra and survive w/o results
He had his moments. I think people underrate his success because most of them came from the 1-1-1 era. He had above-average to decent ghost control and he was pretty good at getting the most out of double marine drops while macroing up a bio comp.
On March 16 2013 04:04 WolfintheSheep wrote: People who fill these threads with stupid criticisms of other EG players should get warned, or banned outright. It's getting sickening to see every single EG related thread full of bullshit from people who have absolutely no concept of ROI, or don't give a fuck about anything except hating on players they have in their targets.
*Thumbs up* Everybody should pay attention to this post. Sad but true, its the truth...
On March 17 2013 14:50 skorched wrote: He deserves better than EG. Sorry to hurt feelings, but EG has good financial backing, I'll give em that but honestly if I wanted to get better at sc2 and compete in GSL+Proleague, EG is the last place I'm looking. That place is cursed, the Cleveland Cavs of esports, seriously.
Maybe machine doesn't make as much as what puma wanted, but I think that Incontrol probably makes a bunch more than either of them. Of course nobody knows, but puma when he bargained for his original contract was the first Korean on EG (i think?) and at that what was he going to compare EG's offer to? He was a B-teamer in BW and I don't remember where he was at the beginning of SC2, but I would guess he didn't have a salary in either situation.
I think InControl probably makes much more than Machine — but not directly from EG, rather through hosting, coaching and other gigs. InControl gives EG tons of exposure, while EG subsidizes his cost of living and travel while giving him the credibility of being on a pro-team. It's a win-win for both sides.
You're thinking in a world that is KESPA esports and not US/EU esports. Incontrol has serious value to EG because of what he does on stream, at events, on shows. The EG name is constantly out there and because EG's name is out there so are their sponsors. Now, perhaps he doesn't get as much of a paycheck as EG's top tier foreign players, but I would guess that they appreciate him enough that he receives just barely under the other foreign players. Then, on top of that yes, he has outside income, but EG can't use that against him in his contract because while he is doing the stream, he is representing EG and while he is casting again he is representing EG. He is though probably the trickiest to guess what he would actually be worth, but if you think the pay scale is based solely off of skill level you are mistaken.
No disagreement here. InControl's value is definitely the hardest to gauge.
One thing to consider is that InControl's brand value and identity is so intertwined with EG's that it's hard to imagine him being worth more to another team, or getting as much as he gets from EG from another team. Think about it — not only does InControl get a salary from EG, but technical support for his stream, a marketing team that showcases his personality in videos and promos, hosting opportunities, a full-time job for his wife (!), room and board for himself, his wife and his dog, et cetera, et cetera.
EG is actually a really good fit for him. Even if another team offered InControl a higher salary, they might not have the infrastructure to support him or his broadcasting talents.
On March 16 2013 04:04 WolfintheSheep wrote: People who fill these threads with stupid criticisms of other EG players should get warned, or banned outright. It's getting sickening to see every single EG related thread full of bullshit from people who have absolutely no concept of ROI, or don't give a fuck about anything except hating on players they have in their targets.
*Thumbs up* Everybody should pay attention to this post. Sad but true, its the truth...
I don't wont to chime in to the off-topic that is being discussed here, but maybe some people are just in secret upset because one of the best financially backed teams outside of Korea is judging competitive players by their ROI instead of skill?
On March 16 2013 04:04 WolfintheSheep wrote: People who fill these threads with stupid criticisms of other EG players should get warned, or banned outright. It's getting sickening to see every single EG related thread full of bullshit from people who have absolutely no concept of ROI, or don't give a fuck about anything except hating on players they have in their targets.
*Thumbs up* Everybody should pay attention to this post. Sad but true, its the truth...
I don't wont to chime in to the off-topic that is being discussed here, but maybe some people are just in secret upset because one of the best financially backed teams outside of Korea is judging competitive players by their ROI instead of skill?
In e-sports, you have to work that way. If you don't have all the endorsements, revenue sharing, and all the other financial foundations that the major mainstream sports have, you need to be frugal with your contracts.
On March 16 2013 04:04 WolfintheSheep wrote: People who fill these threads with stupid criticisms of other EG players should get warned, or banned outright. It's getting sickening to see every single EG related thread full of bullshit from people who have absolutely no concept of ROI, or don't give a fuck about anything except hating on players they have in their targets.
*Thumbs up* Everybody should pay attention to this post. Sad but true, its the truth...
I don't wont to chime in to the off-topic that is being discussed here, but maybe some people are just in secret upset because one of the best financially backed teams outside of Korea is judging competitive players by their ROI instead of skill?
They're well-off financially BECAUSE they're good at judging players on ROI. ALL e-sports teams, in one way or another, judge on ROI. E-sports is a BUSINESS. What matters most to teams is that more money is being brought in than is being spent.
On March 18 2013 11:19 ticklishmusic wrote: This is the first time I've ever heard of EG having money issues.
Wut.
Just because they're better off financially than most teams does not mean Puma was worth keeping for the level of salary he was requesting. EG didn't get into its financial position by backing losing investments.
On March 19 2013 17:36 OrD_SC2 wrote: <3 the candor of the statement. Puma will be alright. JYP is likely next.
Why? He's one of the better performers in SPL from EG-TL, which they are invested super heavily in to, and he was Code S about 2-3 seasons ago. Why would they ever let him go?
Yeah, I don't see JYP going anywhere in a hurry, he's a staple of their Proleague line-up and as far as I can tell from (honestly) little intentional observation, he seems to be enjoying it. I think the EG-TL line-up is glad he seems enthusiastic to be a regular and I would (utterly) guess that Hwanni was happy with it too.
That said, Coach Park may have other ideas, but I would guess that, so long as JYP is not being paid as much as Puma (and his performances have been significantly better anyway), Coach Park would rather help JYP to become a greater asset to the team rather than ditch him ASAP a la Chelsea/Real*/$moneymoneymoney$ clubs.
On March 19 2013 17:36 OrD_SC2 wrote: <3 the candor of the statement. Puma will be alright. JYP is likely next.
Why? He's one of the better performers in SPL from EG-TL, which they are invested super heavily in to, and he was Code S about 2-3 seasons ago. Why would they ever let him go?
While I don't argue he's had some good showings in the SPL the question is if his place on the team is cost-efficient? I wrote the comment in haste, but, before posting took a look at his recent overall win percentages and they are unimpressive. He was another Korean, like Puma, who transitioned away from Korean teams before it became "common" and therefore I'm making the educated guess from the OP that his salary is high as well. If evaluating from a marketing standpoint, has JYP generated significant ROI for sponsors? I don't know, but considering limited exposure from major tournament decisions and mediocre concurrent stream-view numbers (twitch.tv/egjyp) it seems unlikely.
I have no ill will towards JYP, my post is an honest prediction that I (pridefully) assumed people would agree with.
On March 19 2013 17:36 OrD_SC2 wrote: <3 the candor of the statement. Puma will be alright. JYP is likely next.
Why? He's one of the better performers in SPL from EG-TL, which they are invested super heavily in to, and he was Code S about 2-3 seasons ago. Why would they ever let him go?
While I don't argue he's had some good showings in the SPL the question is if his place on the team is cost-efficient? I wrote the comment in haste, but, before posting took a look at his recent overall win percentages and they are unimpressive. He was another Korean, like Puma, who transitioned away from Korean teams before it became "common" and therefore I'm making the educated guess from the OP that his salary is high as well. If evaluating from a marketing standpoint, has JYP generated significant ROI for sponsors? I don't know, but considering limited exposure from major tournament decisions and mediocre concurrent stream-view numbers (twitch.tv/egjyp) it seems unlikely.
I have no ill will towards JYP, my post is an honest prediction that I (pridefully) assumed people would agree with.
not me, JYP does well in a team league and that isn't gonna change. He is also finally doing well in PvT. EGTL has a pretty weak protoss line up, now isn't the time to take out a relatively good protoss. (I think JYP is performing better in SPL than Hero?) JYP popularity in Korea is supposedly to be quite high too.
EPT
