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On March 20 2013 18:32 nemonic wrote:
Overall I definitely found the HotS campaign better than WoL one, which was too crowded with clichés. Kerrigan is just a way more interesting character than Raynor/Tychus. Those two are arguably one of the most one-dimensional, predictable and thus boring characters I've seen yet in a computer game. Kerrigan's character in HotS still has its flaws, but it's way better than what we saw in WoL. Amen. "About time we kicked this revolution into overdrive", "Hell, it's about time", "because some things are just worth fighting for", "She's come to finish the job." - are beyond any of the cheesiness in HotS. I'm not saying they aren't entertaining though.
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I just hope Raynor and Kerrigan can love themselves at the end of Lotv  I'm a sucker for romance.
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I really hate how the franchice is drifting away from being science-fiction, into the realm of fantasy (soft sci-fi). I won't deny that Starcraft always have included elements of unexplainable phenomena, such as the psi-linkage between the zerg which seemed to transcend the rules of time and space, or enormous plot holes (such as Earth's (UED) technology almost perfectly mimicking that of the Terrans, even though they've had no contact with each-others). But there was never anything as blatantly offensive to the player quite like the fubar gimmicks that we're forced to experience in these new campaigns.
... zombie-zerg-wizard Stukov ... words alone can't express how utterly moronic this recycling is, or how vilely it taints the Starcraft universe ...
... Kerrigan gulping up whole pools of green ditchwater in the campaign, and this being explained as an evolutionary feat to strengthen her?!
... reverting the only significant change that somewhat propelled the story in WoL ...
... piling contradictions on top of each-others, force-feeding us lies that defies whatever character development that layed in the past ...
I can only imagine and fear the s- sandwich that awaits us. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we see that the final map includes the corrupted and tortured spirit of tassadar that the player need to cleanse with magic spring rainbow water, in order to take down a gigantic demon-werewolf-xel'naga-titan-terminator-god.
edit: I want to add in, that I do enjoy playing the maps, but I loath the script.
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I actually think Blizz should not end the whole prophecy crap story arc in LotV. Just let LotV be about the toss telling Zeratul to stfu with your prophecy, imprisoning him for bringing Kerri back to QoB and then proceeding to do what they do best. Exterminating zerg, going after the swarm and even Raynor and his gang if they decide to help.
They can just end it with some imba cinematic showing a broken swarm being chased by the Golder Armada and then Amon and his hybrid armies making it's entry.
I think it would make more sense than a Mass Effect 3 with Zeratul as Shepard. But maybe that's just because I play protoss and hate zerg :D
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
... zombie-zerg-wizard Stukov ... words alone can't express how utterly moronic this recycling is, or how vilely it taints the Starcraft universe ...
... reverting the only significant change that somewhat propelled the story in WoL ...
These 2 are the only ones I'm not sure how you could have a problem with.
Stukov and Duran had their extra bit in Starcraft 64 which is where the whole notion of him being infested comes from and if you play the Zeratul bits in WoL you'll realise that to win the "final battle" Kerrigan needs to be the queen of blades as without her help the protoss are the last ones remaining alive and fight until their last man/woman/carrier.
The plot point of WoL wasn't making Kerrigan human, it was giving Kerrigan back her humanity (which yes, she was a human for a bit) and she uses the newly remembered human side to turn back into the queen of blades and use the zerg forces to help later on rather than letting them go feral/going around killing everyone as the first queen of blades was insane.
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The way they butchered the story i wouldnt be surprised if raynor, kerrigan and zeratul have a threesome in legacy of the void.
Maybe it turns out that this threesome is in actuality indeed the legacy of the void, a threesome with participants of each race.
"We got positive feedback on the story.... our kids liked it"
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On March 20 2013 20:20 gh0un wrote:
The way they butchered the story i wouldnt be surprised if raynor, kerrigan and zeratul have a threesome in legacy of the void.
Maybe it turns out that this threesome is in actuality indeed the legacy of the void, a threesome with participants of each race.
...and then they have a pair of zerg-terran-protoss twins - one good and one bad, that have to fight each other when they grow up. Stay tuned for Starcraft 3! + Show Spoiler +Then they make amends and get back together, living in harmony.
On the actual campaign itself, I just completed it. Not much more to say than the quote in OP's post. I kinda liked the beginning when Kerrigan was human again, then it went quickly downhill. I still consider the BW story to be the proper Starcraft story, and would not have minded if it ended there, instead of having it ruined like this.
Gameplay was overall fun, though Kerrigan was too powerful, making the maps too easy. Finished it on hard, so I hope brutal will be more of a challenge. Some of the achievements you get from hard might be tricky too, which would be good.
Not really looking forward to how LotV will destroy the story even more... but I'll buy it, play through it, and then come here and complain again. See you then.
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Abathur is almost guaranteed to turn on Kerrigan in LotV if presented with the option of splicing the hybrids - else he either betrays his own character (search for perfection) or the lore (combination of essence and form to create a higher (thus more perfect) being).
Abathur is genetically created to be unable to betray Kerrigan so unless Kerrigan tells him to give himself the ability to rebel hes incapable
Regarding the essence/Dahaka story: No it is not a small point. Whilst the two conflicting sentences are both given by a sidecharacter (and a rather unimportant one at that) it is one of the places where we are given an insight into how the essences work (inherit trait vs trait from biomass) which forms the entire foundation of the Zerus-storyline; Kerrigans transformation and newly acquired powers as well as creation of the zerg race. But I guess understanding a central piece of the SC2 storyline is not all that important.
i dont see how Dehakas minor line in any way help understand essence when such great explanantion was already given through Abathur
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If Primal Zerg absorb the essence of the things they kill, wouldn't Kerrigan have gotten a huge buff when she killed Narud? Or did she have to eat him?
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On March 21 2013 00:56 BoX wrote:
If Primal Zerg absorb the essence of the things they kill, wouldn't Kerrigan have gotten a huge buff when she killed Narud? Or did she have to eat him?
What if.....he didn't die?
I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some good old 'That was just a setback' in LotV.
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On March 21 2013 00:56 BoX wrote:
If Primal Zerg absorb the essence of the things they kill, wouldn't Kerrigan have gotten a huge buff when she killed Narud? Or did she have to eat him?
she would ahve had to eat him (which she wasnt in the position to do) and its possible NArud doesnt even really have much of a physical body
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On March 15 2013 07:53 GreyKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 07:51 mordk wrote:On March 15 2013 07:50 GreyKnight wrote:On March 15 2013 07:49 mordk wrote:On March 15 2013 07:48 GreyKnight wrote:On March 15 2013 07:47 SgtCoDFish wrote:
Jesus tittyfucking christ I can't follow the train of thought that leads people to call others idiots and telling them they should be ashamed of themselves for having different tastes or enjoying things you didn't.
Do the people who're actually getting aggressive about this really feel they're so intellectually superior? Bloody hell
I can understand if people didn't like it, but some people are taking it waaaaaaay too far. I remember some youtube video that was something like "It's OK to not like things, but don't be a dick about it"
That pretty much sums this up. The story was just that fucking bad. It was so bad it elicited this kind of emotional response from people. Nah, bitching is fine. Insulting people for liking something is unjustifiable. Justifiable or not, the story is horrible and if you think something is bad you spend your time to make sure nobody supports it so things change. Still no need to insult people who liked it. No matter how you want to dress it up. It is if you think it can stop things. People insult racists don't they?
Yeah , but educating them works better . Don't justify why you should be able to insult people because they are not of the same opinion.
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Although the discussion has changed for a while now, I want to add to the 'why Mengsk left Kerrigan' discussion because imo the right answer hasn't been given yet:
Kerrigan didn't accept the use of psi-emitters. She took on the protoss in that mission because she thought they were going to glass tarsonis and everyone on it. She left believing 'Actrurus will come around. I know he will' about his use of the psi emitters. She would never have accepted their use and would have rebelled against him if he did. So he left her to die before she would become his enemy. (Later in the novels apperently he was given a more personal reason to hate Kerrigan but this is how it was originally written in the game.)
Now for something completely different: I liked Arcturus in HotS. In BW he got rolled by the UED and then Kerrian and didn't seem to have any idea on how to handle the situation (and could have died three times over). Here, he starts by sending a fleet of BCs and his top assassin after Kerrigan (no evil overlord 'send weakest minnions first'). When that fails he uses Raynor as a bargaining chip. He also rigs the prison ship to explode if Kerrigan enters it (kinda cheap how easily she survives that though). He's also got secret hybrid technology and psi emitter/ psi disruptor technology he's been developping. And to top it all off he's got the Artifact in his room knowing Kerrigan would want to finish him off personally. That's some contingency plans!
I love Arcturus' character. His speech is my favorite cut scene from the franchise and still gives me goosebumps. His sneak-attack in Omega made a bit up for his lackluster appearance in BW. His use of Tychus in WoL was better. Now he's the character again I liked: scheming and planning. I didn't like how Kerrigan went about in the campaign as needing 'more power' to defeat him. Beating Arcturus was never about power and Kerrigan basically punching her way through his schemes instead of out-scheming him (save for the Dahaka part) was a bit of a let down.
All this Zerus business, I didn't like it. Luckily it didn't influence the story that much.
I'm glad broodmothers got some screen time. IMO the Zerg have been dead ever since Kerrigan took over the swarm. I loved the overmind and the cerebrates but with their death the Zerg were basically reduced to Kerrigans weapons. That, I felt, was the worst direction the story took in the franchise. Terrans are humans and Protoss act like humans. The overmind and the zerg were truly unique in the first campaigns in their actions and motivations. The broodmothers have the potential to give back the old 'Zerg' feeling. I hope Zagara becomes more badass in the future and replaces Kerrigan.
Overall I liked WoL better. Not sure how it measures up to my love/hate relationship with Brood War. I fear LotV will be my least favorite because I don't care about Amon in the slightest. Still, I was entertained.
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On March 21 2013 00:14 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +Abathur is almost guaranteed to turn on Kerrigan in LotV if presented with the option of splicing the hybrids - else he either betrays his own character (search for perfection) or the lore (combination of essence and form to create a higher (thus more perfect) being). Abathur is genetically created to be unable to betray Kerrigan so unless Kerrigan tells him to give himself the ability to rebel hes incapable Show nested quote +Regarding the essence/Dahaka story: No it is not a small point. Whilst the two conflicting sentences are both given by a sidecharacter (and a rather unimportant one at that) it is one of the places where we are given an insight into how the essences work (inherit trait vs trait from biomass) which forms the entire foundation of the Zerus-storyline; Kerrigans transformation and newly acquired powers as well as creation of the zerg race. But I guess understanding a central piece of the SC2 storyline is not all that important. i dont see how Dehakas minor line in any way help understand essence when such great explanantion was already given through Abathur
No, Abathur is genetically created to be unable to betray the swarm. The difference is rather pivotal.
I do not know what to tell you if you do not see how Dahakas 2 lines are in conflict with each other based on the background given to us purely by Abathur (I also thought you recently argued that primal zerg and the swarm did not use biomass in the same way?) and how it is crappy writing to have a guy say "yo all the essence we are gathering is crap" only to 1 mission later say "yo I have collected lots of essence" despite only killing the same things. The lines are either in conflict with themselves or the entire concept of essence.
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On March 21 2013 01:59 Splines wrote:
Although the discussion has changed for a while now, I want to add to the 'why Mengsk left Kerrigan' discussion because imo the right answer hasn't been given yet:
Kerrigan didn't accept the use of psi-emitters. She took on the protoss in that mission because she thought they were going to glass tarsonis and everyone on it. She left believing 'Actrurus will come around. I know he will' about his use of the psi emitters. She would never have accepted their use and would have rebelled against him if he did. So he left her to die before she would become his enemy. (Later in the novels apperently he was given a more personal reason to hate Kerrigan but this is how it was originally written in the game.)
Now for something completely different: I liked Arcturus in HotS. In BW he got rolled by the UED and then Kerrian and didn't seem to have any idea on how to handle the situation (and could have died three times over). Here, he starts by sending a fleet of BCs and his top assassin after Kerrigan (no evil overlord 'send weakest minnions first'). When that fails he uses Raynor as a bargaining chip. He also rigs the prison ship to explode if Kerrigan enters it (kinda cheap how easily she survives that though). He's also got secret hybrid technology and psi emitter/ psi disruptor technology he's been developping. And to top it all off he's got the Artifact in his room knowing Kerrigan would want to finish him off personally. That's some contingency plans!
I love Arcturus' character. His speech is my favorite cut scene from the franchise and still gives me goosebumps. His sneak-attack in Omega made a bit up for his lackluster appearance in BW. His use of Tychus in WoL was better. Now he's the character again I liked: scheming and planning. I didn't like how Kerrigan went about in the campaign as needing 'more power' to defeat him. Beating Arcturus was never about power and Kerrigan basically punching her way through his schemes instead of out-scheming him (save for the Dahaka part) was a bit of a let down.
All this Zerus business, I didn't like it. Luckily it didn't influence the story that much.
I'm glad broodmothers got some screen time. IMO the Zerg have been dead ever since Kerrigan took over the swarm. I loved the overmind and the cerebrates but with their death the Zerg were basically reduced to Kerrigans weapons. That, I felt, was the worst direction the story took in the franchise. Terrans are humans and Protoss act like humans. The overmind and the zerg were truly unique in the first campaigns in their actions and motivations. The broodmothers have the potential to give back the old 'Zerg' feeling. I hope Zagara becomes more badass in the future and replaces Kerrigan.
Overall I liked WoL better. Not sure how it measures up to my love/hate relationship with Brood War. I fear LotV will be my least favorite because I don't care about Amon in the slightest. Still, I was entertained.
I find your post very bizarre. Mengsk had no character in SC2; he was the bumbling supervillain with no recognizable or distinct personality whatsoever. Furthermore, the Zerg being nothing more than a killing machine for Kerrigan exemplifies their nature perfectly; they're merciless and practically mindless monsters. Finally, since when do Protoss act like humans? They're much smarter, much stronger, as a whole are far more morally respectable, incredibly technologically advanced, emphasize community over individuality, and exemplify perfecting one's self to the point of rigidity and a lack of adaptability.
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No, Abathur is genetically created to be unable to betray the swarm. The difference is rather pivotal.
Kerrigan is the swarm, as the top command noone can disobey her, Abathur even objects when she tells him to start making the broodmothers more sentient because that increases the odds of them being able to rebel
there is no wiggle room, Abathur CANNOT betray Kerrigan
I do not know what to tell you if you do not see how Dahakas 2 lines are in conflict with each other based on the background given to us purely by Abathur (I also thought you recently argued that primal zerg and the swarm did not use biomass in the same way?) and how it is crappy writing to have a guy say "yo all the essence we are gathering is crap" only to 1 mission later say "yo I have collected lots of essence" despite only killing the same things. The lines are either in conflict with themselves or the entire concept of essence.
TBH i dont remember him ever actually saying that the Essence was crap he never saing high praises of it but he never really called it worthless
and again, there are ghosts, there are other benefits to Terrans (LIKE THE BRAIN) and there are indiginous creatures on the world, Kerrigan may be lending Dehaka transport to other worlds as reward for his assistance
also remember Dehaka doesnt collect essence for power, power is a trap, Dehaka collects essense for no reason other then to collect essence so that he constantly changes and evolves i dont think he cares about getting stronger only about being different
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You know, it's kind of amusing that with all the whining about HotSs storyline, the biggest plot-hole and hand-waved justification is the very existence of the Queen of Blades.
The decision to insert Infested Kerrigan into the story was documented as a late addition, and it really shows. The Overmind himself devotes an entire brood, a newly created Cerebrate, and risks the very entity of the Swarm to create an extremely powerful, independent thinking individual. The best reason he can come up with is that her psionic power makes her useful to fight the Protoss...which does absolutely nothing to explain why he only made her, and why she was given so much free reign and power.
Throughout the entire SC1 campaign Infested Kerrigan does little more than a Cerebrate or a 100% obedient infested Ghost could have done, and even fails on several occasions because she still has human arrogance and ego.
Then, when BW rolls around, she actually betrays the Swarm itself by killing off the Cerebrates who were trying to resurrect the Overmind.
It's not until SC2 that you actually have some genuine explanations for the Queen of Blades ever being created...even if those reasons are lame
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The decision to insert Infested Kerrigan into the story was documented as a late addition, and it really shows. The Overmind himself devotes an entire brood, a newly created Cerebrate, and risks the very entity of the Swarm to create an extremely powerful, independent thinking individual. The best reason he can come up with is that her psionic power makes her useful to fight the Protoss...which does absolutely nothing to explain why he only made her, and why she was given so much free reign and power.
your incorrect here, he devoted a small portion of his endless army and a newly created cerebrate, not in any way a large commitment
Kerrigan was no more independant then any other Cerebrate
Throughout the entire SC1 campaign Infested Kerrigan does little more than a Cerebrate or a 100% obedient infested Ghost could have done, and even fails on several occasions because she still has human arrogance and ego.
Kerrigan IS a 100% obedient infested ghost, and i dont believe any other Cerebrate perhaps Daggoth would ahve been able to capture the Dark Templar and force Tassadar into a corner
also i fail to see how she fails on SEVERAL occasions because of human arrogance and ego, only scenario is falling for Tassadars trap but then the only Cerebrate who realised that something was a bit off was Daggoth
Then, when BW rolls around, she actually betrays the Swarm itself by killing off the Cerebrates who were trying to resurrect the Overmind.
she does not betray the swarm, if the Cerebrates could be killed by Kerrigan then they were not worthy of leading the swarm, the swarm needs strong leader if Kerrigan is strongest leader then she leads
if anything the Cerebrates were betraying the swarm by not bowing to Kerrigan
the Overmind had reason for creating Kerrigan, he though it was going to be a LONG war of attrition as he slowly worked out where Aiur is, he thought he had years to assimilate Kerrigans Psi potential and incorporate into the swarm (like say in deep space probes whod be able to actually hunt for the Protoss psi signals) all those plans proved useless when he discovered exactly where Aiur was and could immediately launch a surprise attack
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I have to agree with Forikorder about Abathur somewhat. He specifically says that the swarm must never present a threat to its leader. That was why he was against the Brood Mothers having increased intelligence.That being said, he is a more independent creature so I could see Blizz writing in him doing something erratic/bad.
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On March 21 2013 12:09 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You know, it's kind of amusing that with all the whining about HotSs storyline, the biggest plot-hole and hand-waved justification is the very existence of the Queen of Blades.
The decision to insert Infested Kerrigan into the story was documented as a late addition, and it really shows. The Overmind himself devotes an entire brood, a newly created Cerebrate, and risks the very entity of the Swarm to create an extremely powerful, independent thinking individual. The best reason he can come up with is that her psionic power makes her useful to fight the Protoss...which does absolutely nothing to explain why he only made her, and why she was given so much free reign and power.
Throughout the entire SC1 campaign Infested Kerrigan does little more than a Cerebrate or a 100% obedient infested Ghost could have done, and even fails on several occasions because she still has human arrogance and ego.
Then, when BW rolls around, she actually betrays the Swarm itself by killing off the Cerebrates who were trying to resurrect the Overmind.
It's not until SC2 that you actually have some genuine explanations for the Queen of Blades ever being created...even if those reasons are lame
Its rose colored glasses for the most part. SC1 and BW did not have much in the way of direct character development, depending more on abstractions to push the story.
For example, if you play the BW campaign they pretty much just took the idea of the protoss freaking out that they lost their planet and stuck to it. Mission one is them freaking out, halfway through they're trying to hold down a new planet, and then by the end of their campaign they simply get to keep a planet. Now a lot of plot was thrown in there during that time such as magic crystals and anti-zerg nukes. I mean, was there really that much of a difference between the last protoss mission in BW and the last mission in WoL?
No, they both were just "let the xel naga thingy destroy the zerg" and defend until then. Narrative wise both SC1/BW and WoL/HotS are in about the same scale--the problem only comes when you go through execution.
Just like you said, do we know why the Overmind made Kerrigan? Nope.
Do we know why they had Duran talk hint at the possibility of Zerg/Toss Hybrid in BW despite the fact that it went against the backstory of SC1? Nope.
Was Fenix coming back hokey? Yup. "Oh he died, JUST KIDDING!"
For the most part, the plot point and the narrative turns were weak. So why did BW work?
Delivery.
Artanis is as annoying as Valerian. But we don't get long conversations with Artanis, we simply have him barking orders and have 1-2 lines at most getting pissed off that his men are dying or that his people aren't happy. We as the viewers then make the conclusion of "Oh, he's a bit annoying, and his unit is a bit weak, but deep down I know that he cares for his people."
With Valerian we have him whining about his dad, whining about how things aren't the same outside the sector, we hear all this tiny details about his viewpoints of the world that we as an audience just don't care about.
In BW, we knew Jim and Sarah were close--but did we have to *know* exactly what that closeness was? The fact that they could have been friends or they could have been more than friends was an awesome sense of tension. You were their ally, watching them, but they kept their private life private and didn't start making out with each other in front of you. You just knew that Kerrigan cared more about Jim than she did you. Its like noticing an office/school/friendship romance where you see the two people hanging out with each other more often, but you're just not sure. But in WoL? We see Jim getting drunk over her, we see her killing random marines just because she's upset, its all too much for us to take in. We don't need to know that they had sex or not ("like riding a bike" my ass!) it was more intriguing when we simply knew they were close without confirmation.
Not to say that those types of moments are not in WoL or HotS. Kerrigan staring at her rifle, reminiscing about being human. Kerrigan hesitating in front of Narud when he shapeshifted into Raynor. Kerrigan telling her Broodmothers to fight other planets instead of simply following her around. These were moments of true character and world building.
What ruins it for WoL and HotS?
WoL did not need raynor spending time robbing trains and raiding tombs when his only character motivation was vengeance and kerrigan. We had about half the campaign be these missions that had absolutely no value to the characters motivations or his progression as a full being.
HotS did not need to have Kerrigan be playing gladiator fights in some random ass planet for no fucking reason! During that 2nd mission when you're asked to gas mengks troops or losing zerglings on them--that was a good character moment. Kerrigan being comforted by a zergling instead of a human because they're the only ones she really trusts outside of Raynor, that is good character building. Listening to her carry your hand every single mission is a nuisance! When she sent Brood Mothers to assimilate whole planets did she spend time holding their hands? No, she told them to go get a planet and simply let them do their job.
Why am I saying all this? Because the less you tell the audience, the more the audience makes up on their own. When Kerrigan is laying there, shattered by the news that the only human being that trusted her was dead and its a zergling that comes in and comforts her--that's drama. Kerrigan then spending every other dialogue telling you she has to kill mengst AS IF YOU DIDN"T ALREADY KNOW THAT is annoying. I don't need her to tell me she needs to kill mengst--I understood that clearly enough on the second video when she says that she wants to kill him and raynor says that they should just run away together and she holds back and decides to be happy. I knew that she hated Mengsk then. When Raynor dies and the only thing holding her back from killing mengst is gone, I knew that she was going to kill mengst. Having her tell me over and over and over again just makes her sound dumb. Having people talk about essence non-stop is dumb. Having her play highlander against boss packs was dumb. What did any of that have to do with her growing as a character?
You know what would have been awesome? She spends 1-3 missions trying to kill mengsk and failing HARD. Pulling back, and looking for ways to solve the problem.
You know a game that did that? SC1.
Terran missions you try to save humans and kill zerg. Then Zerg missions shows you the humans and protoss failing to stop the zerg, dying by the millions. And then, when all hope is lost, the protoss missions rally together for one last charge.
THAT is how you make drama.
Showing Kerrigan as an unkillable unbeatable foe that spends half the campaign killing random zerg units is just dumb.
If we had her spend half the campaign killing terrans, and then feeling bad about it and retreating telling her zerg army to stop and them questioning her strength as a leader--that would be drama.
Her having to fight her own troops as much as she fights Mengsks troops as she has to actually make the decision to stay human or to give in to the zerg influence--that is drama.
Her eventually letting everything go after trying hard not to kill humans? That is drama.
Her simply telling Abathur "stop experimenting on humans okay?" is not drama. I don't need you to tell me that, I need you to show me that!
Sigh.....
That was a lot longer than I realized it would be....
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