Because he's a heartless dick who will sacrifice anyone or anything for what he wants. That was clearly evident by the end of Episode 1.
How come UED is so similar to the terrans in the Koprulu sector? The latter are supposed to be exiled prisoners and one would assume they'd have totally different technology compared to the former, yet it's pretty much the same.
Because the video game was made by a (then) small video game company in 1998.
Why does the overmind leave Kerrigan behind when it attacks Aiur? Wouldn't it make sense to bring one of your strongest "agents" with you to ensure victory?
Pretty sure it was to hunt the Dark Templar.
SC1 had a lot of plotholes that were "patched" with books, but you can say the same for SC2. Some people said a good VG shouldn't need books to do this, I kinda agree but it is what it is. SC1 has as many weak points as SC2 does but people forget it for some reason.
People don't forget, and it's getting really old when clueless people step in here and just say, "But you're being nostalgic!"
No, we aren't, and we've clearly explained why throughout this thread, at least half a dozen times.
On March 20 2013 07:08 Andr3 wrote: Except all of your answers are nothing.
If he's such a heartless dick why does he save jim/you(theplayer).
Because it was made by a small video game company? Wow that's a good excuse. So was PS:T or any IE game and they had pretty good stories.
No she already hunted the Dark Templar, after Zeratul ninja pwns Zasz she could easily help the Overmind yet he conveniently leaves her behind...
1. he didn't leave jim on tarsonis, jim never was on tarsonis, he broke him out of the jail because he needed him. He left kerrigan because : a. tarsonis orbit was being overrun by zerg and protoss, lingering to save a small group would be risky. b. (from the books, which you can leave out if you think books should fill plotholes) kerrigan was one of the three ghosts that killed his father, and this was his way of getting revenge.
2. it was made by a small company, so putting a LOT of effort into creating a 4th race (terrans from earth) for just an expansion would probably be out of their budget
killed his parents and fifteen year old sister. Gettysburg was a two part revenge, one against the Confederates who nuked his home planet and ordered the hit on his family, and two against the ghost who carried it out the hit
.
because the video game was made by a (then) small video game company in 1998.
Well, with these sorts of things, you kind of have to accept that gameplay trumps story. Realistically, the UED would have completely different units. But Blizzard can't just add a fourth race like that, especially if it's just another Terran faction.
Why are you bringing up the fact what Kerrigan did, that's described in the books. Before any of the books, him leaving her made no sense whatsoever and that's why they probably wrote the whole Kerrigan pre-story and stuff.
Why would Mengsk leave one of his best agents behind?(she single handedly pwns people on Antiga) But go out of his way to get Jim/magistrate(player)?
Also I wasn't questioning why Mengsk saved Jim and the player(i know why).
I'm also not saying UED should be a 4th race. But there is zero explanation done.(gameplay wise I can understand to a degree), but even in cinematics they have the same technology. The marine suits / battlecruiser is what I remember.
Without the help of books/SC2, BW has its own share of plot holes, just like SC2.
On March 19 2013 20:40 {ToT}ColmA wrote: i enjoyed it, was fun, dont expect much from a rts campaign thou so it was all good, videos were pretty good
Exactly. People are expecting Shakespeare from an RTS. Even BW wasn't that AMAZING of a story. Overall loved it, props to Blizzard. $40 well spent IMO.
Because the choices are either Shakespeare or:
"The ship keeps jumping to randomized locations. It is impossible to predict where it will be." "But it needs to re-supply." "Yes, and that's why we know EXACTLY where it will be!"
There's simply nothing in between. No way.
Guess i must be dumb and stupid cause i honestly don't see anything wrong with any of those sentences.
Maybe cause i never saw a decent story when growing up i guess.
Care to explain what exactly is wrong with them other then "it is cheesy/bad"?
Ok let me paraphrase:
Valerian: We don't have a map! We are lost! I have no idea where we are! Kerrigan: But you need to always carry a map so you know where you are. Valerian: Yes, and that's why I have this map so I know exactly where we are!
On March 19 2013 20:40 {ToT}ColmA wrote: i enjoyed it, was fun, dont expect much from a rts campaign thou so it was all good, videos were pretty good
Exactly. People are expecting Shakespeare from an RTS. Even BW wasn't that AMAZING of a story. Overall loved it, props to Blizzard. $40 well spent IMO.
Because the choices are either Shakespeare or:
"The ship keeps jumping to randomized locations. It is impossible to predict where it will be." "But it needs to re-supply." "Yes, and that's why we know EXACTLY where it will be!"
There's simply nothing in between. No way.
Guess i must be dumb and stupid cause i honestly don't see anything wrong with any of those sentences.
Maybe cause i never saw a decent story when growing up i guess.
Care to explain what exactly is wrong with them other then "it is cheesy/bad"?
Ok let me paraphrase:
Valerian: We don't have a map! We are lost! I have no idea where we are! Kerrigan: But you need to always carry a map so you know where you are. Valerian: Yes, and that's why I have this map so I know exactly where we are!
On March 19 2013 20:40 {ToT}ColmA wrote: i enjoyed it, was fun, dont expect much from a rts campaign thou so it was all good, videos were pretty good
Exactly. People are expecting Shakespeare from an RTS. Even BW wasn't that AMAZING of a story. Overall loved it, props to Blizzard. $40 well spent IMO.
Because the choices are either Shakespeare or:
"The ship keeps jumping to randomized locations. It is impossible to predict where it will be." "But it needs to re-supply." "Yes, and that's why we know EXACTLY where it will be!"
There's simply nothing in between. No way.
Guess i must be dumb and stupid cause i honestly don't see anything wrong with any of those sentences.
Maybe cause i never saw a decent story when growing up i guess.
Care to explain what exactly is wrong with them other then "it is cheesy/bad"?
Ok let me paraphrase:
Valerian: We don't have a map! We are lost! I have no idea where we are! Kerrigan: But you need to always carry a map so you know where you are. Valerian: Yes, and that's why I have this map so I know exactly where we are!
Nothing wrong in this exchange? Seriously?
No? I mean, he's pointing out the fact that most people are not going to know where it will be, but because they hacked into the system and know when it's going to resupply, they find a hole in the security of the randomized jump. It makes sense.
On March 20 2013 07:49 Andr3 wrote: Why are you bringing up the fact what Kerrigan did, that's described in the books. Before any of the books, him leaving her made no sense whatsoever and that's why they probably wrote the whole Kerrigan pre-story and stuff.
Why would Mengsk leave one of his best agents behind?(she single handedly pwns people on Antiga) But go out of his way to get Jim/magistrate(player)?
Also I wasn't questioning why Mengsk saved Jim and the player(i know why).
I'm also not saying UED should be a 4th race. But there is zero explanation done.(gameplay wise I can understand to a degree), but even in cinematics they have the same technology. The marine suits / battlecruiser is what I remember.
Without the help of books/SC2, BW has its own share of plot holes, just like SC2.
Him leaving her made plenty of sense and I just explained that. He's a heartless dick who will sacrifice anyone. He found Jim and the Magistrate because he didn't have much in the way of an army at the beginning of Episode 1; by the time you get to that mission, Kerrigan (and everyone else) is expendable.
SC/BW may have some plot holes, but you're being willfully ignorant to a pathetic extent if you think that SC/BW has even half as many plot holes as SC2.
You're using some very strong words for basically putting words in my mouth. I never said SC2 has as many plotholes as BW does.
I give you leeway for your explanation of Mengsk leaving Kerrigan behind. But it's very clear it was something blizzard wasn't happy with when they wrote a whole history around it.
On March 19 2013 20:25 SwizzY wrote:And the story was just bad. The romance between the two was so trite and cliche and NOT starcraft that I immediately tuned out of most of the monologue/interpersonal Kerrigan/Raynor dialogue about 2 missions in.
I thought that some of the unit evolutions were pretty sweet though. Overall, meh. Pretty underwhelming to say the least.
Perhaps you missed the essence of it, because the essence of the story is not just about continuing the essence of the first game, but also includes the essence of the novels whose essence really contributes to understanding the essence of this game's storyline.
Don't forget the biomass. It's all about the biomass zzzz
Personally, the story was lackluster for my taste, but that doesn't matter, if someone else enjoyed it, it isn't useless or dumb... BUT The thing that irritated the crap out of me was that many missions were just copy-paste from WoL. The one that tipped me to the edge of sighing at the game was when you have to feed the Primal Zerg to awaken him. It is quite literally "Welcome to the Jungle", the Tosh Mission, with a new map and race.
I am just happy the multiplayer portion is fun and different. I love it! Thank you for that part at least Blizzard. (:
On March 19 2013 20:25 SwizzY wrote:And the story was just bad. The romance between the two was so trite and cliche and NOT starcraft that I immediately tuned out of most of the monologue/interpersonal Kerrigan/Raynor dialogue about 2 missions in.
I thought that some of the unit evolutions were pretty sweet though. Overall, meh. Pretty underwhelming to say the least.
Perhaps you missed the essence of it, because the essence of the story is not just about continuing the essence of the first game, but also includes the essence of the novels whose essence really contributes to understanding the essence of this game's storyline.
Don't forget the biomass. It's all about the biomass zzzz
On March 19 2013 20:25 SwizzY wrote:And the story was just bad. The romance between the two was so trite and cliche and NOT starcraft that I immediately tuned out of most of the monologue/interpersonal Kerrigan/Raynor dialogue about 2 missions in.
I thought that some of the unit evolutions were pretty sweet though. Overall, meh. Pretty underwhelming to say the least.
Perhaps you missed the essence of it, because the essence of the story is not just about continuing the essence of the first game, but also includes the essence of the novels whose essence really contributes to understanding the essence of this game's storyline.
Don't forget the biomass. It's all about the biomass zzzz
follow the essence
Speaking of:
How come Dakha changes from "Terrans do not have any worthwhile biomass with all their machinery" to "I have collect lots of biomass" when you have done nothing but killing terrans ever since he began following you? Even the guy doing nothing but talking about essence is inconsistent.
On March 19 2013 20:25 SwizzY wrote:And the story was just bad. The romance between the two was so trite and cliche and NOT starcraft that I immediately tuned out of most of the monologue/interpersonal Kerrigan/Raynor dialogue about 2 missions in.
I thought that some of the unit evolutions were pretty sweet though. Overall, meh. Pretty underwhelming to say the least.
Perhaps you missed the essence of it, because the essence of the story is not just about continuing the essence of the first game, but also includes the essence of the novels whose essence really contributes to understanding the essence of this game's storyline.
Don't forget the biomass. It's all about the biomass zzzz
follow the essence
Speaking of:
How come Dakha changes from "Terrans do not have any worthwhile biomass with all their machinery" to "I have collect lots of biomass" when you have done nothing but killing terrans ever since he began following you? Even the guy doing nothing but talking about essence is inconsistent.
Because Metzen and the writers don't even remember what they wrote the day before.
On March 19 2013 20:25 SwizzY wrote:And the story was just bad. The romance between the two was so trite and cliche and NOT starcraft that I immediately tuned out of most of the monologue/interpersonal Kerrigan/Raynor dialogue about 2 missions in.
I thought that some of the unit evolutions were pretty sweet though. Overall, meh. Pretty underwhelming to say the least.
Perhaps you missed the essence of it, because the essence of the story is not just about continuing the essence of the first game, but also includes the essence of the novels whose essence really contributes to understanding the essence of this game's storyline.
Don't forget the biomass. It's all about the biomass zzzz
follow the essence
Speaking of:
How come Dakha changes from "Terrans do not have any worthwhile biomass with all their machinery" to "I have collect lots of biomass" when you have done nothing but killing terrans ever since he began following you? Even the guy doing nothing but talking about essence is inconsistent.
because even if its shit its still essence and he can still hunt other animals on the planets they travel too
On March 20 2013 08:33 Andr3 wrote: You're using some very strong words for basically putting words in my mouth. I never said SC2 has as many plotholes as BW does.
I give you leeway for your explanation of Mengsk leaving Kerrigan behind. But it's very clear it was something blizzard wasn't happy with when they wrote a whole history around it.
It seems like you never actually read the whole story, only some kind of summary. As I wrote earlier, you could find some plotholes if you really looked hard into the sc1 storyline, but you bring those that are not even close to be a plothole...
Kerrigan began questioning his orders(to be precise the usage of psi emitters vs confederates) long before New Gettysburg. Since he dealt the final blow to the confederacy , the only real threat to his rule would be her, as she was a powerful psionic assassin. If u still think that's stupid, read some history and what Stalin did when he came to power - he butchered many of his most talented generals, as at that time, absolute obedience was more important to him than resourcefulness.
And ( I really don't know why I am even responding to this bullshit "plothole"; I don't want to be too offensive, but PLAY THE GODDAMN CAMPAIGN dude) Mengsk DIDN'T leave Jim and Magistrate alone. The last mission in episode 1 (spoiler for you) is when you escape Mengsk's blocade set up against Raiders.
The point you made earlier about UED is perhaps the most stupid one has ever written in this thread. This is a game, and has its limitations; Everything is symbolic. It's likely that UED had a different arsenal (not to mention they actually brought valkyries, medics and improved goliaths into the sector). I'm expecting that in reply you will bring the fact that siege tank is bigger than a dropship, yet somehow 2 tanks can fit into it. That's a freaking plothole. Take that sc1 fans.
To summarize, once again, PLEASE install sc1 and bw, get through campaign, read every dialogue, and then come back to discuss it.
On March 19 2013 14:46 Gamegene wrote: As much as I liked the cutscenes for HOTS... can't help but feel cheated rewatching this.
I guess I'll have to wait for SC3 :/
That and Infested Stukov being a completely random character unrelated to his SC1 predecessor.
While not perfect (stukov hams up the Russian a bit too much) it is a good cinematic.
Sets out the ued as slightly reluctant bad guys, shows the friendship between stukov and dugall, the horrors of the war, a proto marauder. And it does this without excessive exposition and let's the viewer do a bit of inference. And styling the ued as European as compared to the red neck terrans is a nice touch. And the opera is great.
My favorite part of it is just that marine rocking back and forth not even caring. Leaves a pit in your stomach when you realize he knew that help was never going to come.
You also have to admit that SC1/BW has its share of plot holes as well. If the Overmind had settled on Aiur and the Zerg have apparently taken over most of the planet and should have control over the skies, how do Tassadar, the Conclave et. al get around at all? How does Tassadar return to Aiur without getting shot down by a pack of Scourge first? If even feral Zerg without the control of the Overmind are sufficient to completely drive the Protoss off planet, how do Tassadar et. al ever get close enough to stage a frontal assault on the Overmind, even if they have killed off a couple Cerebrates? Why does Zeratul fall for Kerrigan's manipulations twice? Why isn't Kerrigan more curious about Duran - he's apparently an infested terran who was never mentioned in SC1 as one of the Overmind's minions. How does shutting down the defense network on Telematros allow Kerrigan to steal Raszagal from Shakuras? Shouldn't the constant operation of the Xelnaga temple, powered by the two crystals, be enough to zap any Zerg trying to land on the planet?
As much as I agree that some holes could be found in BW, you mostly pointed out things that aren't really one..
1. During the time Fenix died (for 1st time), Conclave led a seemingly successful campaign against the Zerg - in mission 3, under your command, the fleet of the executor drives back two broods; And in original sc, there are always actions happening simultaneously, so probably other battles have happened, which forced Overmind to regroup his forces. Don't underestimate the Protoss.
Feral zerg forcing Protoss off Aiur can be very easily explained: 1. The invasion began in episode II; Many battles have been fought since. Every single is slowly weakening the first born. 2. Although they managed to drive zerg back for a little bit, they lost Antioch outpost with their Praetor, Fenix. 3. Then the civil war began; Many protoss also lost their lives. 4. Finally, they engaged the very (true one) heart of the swarm, and they managed to do so only because Overmind was stunned; Imagine the potential of the zerg guarding him, and it was unleashed on Protoss the moment Overmind died. Moreover, their the mighty Tassadar with the all-powerful Ganthrithor; The casualties were too severe to continue fighting the zerg.
2. How does Zeratul fail to Kerrigan's manipulation twice? He never found out Matriarch was infested, and he only had very little clues about that possibility. He even suspected this(I remember there was a Zeratul's line that he's worried about the Matriarch), but his loyalty to Raszagal prevailed.
3. Well, I could be wrong, but from what I understood, the temple wasn't zapping constantly - it made a one huge zap, killed every zerg and that's it. Activating it required 30 in-game minutes, so it wasn't just "push the button", especially if Kerrigan's action was quick and efficient (and with Duran leading, it's safe to assume it was).
However, as I said earlier in the post, I do believe there are some weak points in original SC story:
1. Tassadar's action during his return on Aiur was absolutely stupid and pointless... He surrendered to avoid Protoss killing Protoss, but his allies rescued him and in result even more of his brethren died.
2. Why did Duran took any action against UED? Was he an agent of Kerrigan already? And, why did he help her? From sc2 point of view it made no sense, as she was the only one possibly stopping the hybrid. I think that's the most obvious reason that WoL and Hots storyline was not something the original writers had in mind when doing BW. She was obviously important to the evil plan, not the only weak point it had. Sadly, Metzen just kills Duran, without even bothering to explain his motives in some way.
3. Finally, how did Kerrigan chased down the whole UED? DuGalle didn't take part in the combat personally; And his cruiser for sure had some kind of warp drive, that could easily take him back to Earth. Even if not, at least a few cruisers out of whole fleet should have made it.
Why did Mengsk leave Kerrigan behind? How come UED is so similar to the terrans in the Koprulu sector? The latter are supposed to be exiled prisoners and one would assume they'd have totally different technology compared to the former, yet it's pretty much the same. Why does the overmind leave Kerrigan behind when it attacks Aiur? Wouldn't it make sense to bring one of your strongest "agents" with you to ensure victory?
Answer these questions without SC2/books. I'm pretty sure there's more I don't remember SC1 much since I played quite some time ago.
SC1 had a lot of plotholes that were "patched" with books, but you can say the same for SC2. Some people said a good VG shouldn't need books to do this, I kinda agree but it is what it is. SC1 has as many weak points as SC2 does but people forget it for some reason.
Two reasons Mengsk left Kerrigan is because a) she had no more use and b) Mengsk is a type of character that is willing to sacrifice everything inorder to achieve that goal which is clearly evident throught the mission. The planet was being overrun and Mengsk had achieved what he wanted to do, especially on that mission. Why risk everything to save Kerrigan when he can just leave? A reason why Mengsk is able to work with Kerrigan (QoB) when the UED takes control of the Koprulu Sector.. He will do just literally about everything for his power.
With regards to UED, its the limitation of the game. Can't have a fourth race however I assume that the technology that the exiled prisoners use would be based on what is found on Earth and its nearby systems. Obviously the origins will be from the same root with minor differences. Blizzard actually introduces the new units such as the valkyrie and medics as a new unit available to the UED forces showing that they were technologically more advanced especially in the medical field which also happens to tie with their experimentation with the zerg (and the sedation of the young new born overmind).
The overmind simply did not need Kerrigan. To me, she was more of an experiment by the overmind and the fact that she was still inexperienced in the ways of zerg etc Just wasn't ready for prime time hence why Tassadar is able to outsmart her a few times. Only when Kerrigan learned, adapted etc did she really become a force to be reckoned with, hence her self-titlement as the QoB.
SC1 in the grand scheme of things had a great plot. Your just splitting hairs at this point in time.
You also have to admit that SC1/BW has its share of plot holes as well. If the Overmind had settled on Aiur and the Zerg have apparently taken over most of the planet and should have control over the skies, how do Tassadar, the Conclave et. al get around at all? How does Tassadar return to Aiur without getting shot down by a pack of Scourge first? If even feral Zerg without the control of the Overmind are sufficient to completely drive the Protoss off planet, how do Tassadar et. al ever get close enough to stage a frontal assault on the Overmind, even if they have killed off a couple Cerebrates? Why does Zeratul fall for Kerrigan's manipulations twice? Why isn't Kerrigan more curious about Duran - he's apparently an infested terran who was never mentioned in SC1 as one of the Overmind's minions. How does shutting down the defense network on Telematros allow Kerrigan to steal Raszagal from Shakuras? Shouldn't the constant operation of the Xelnaga temple, powered by the two crystals, be enough to zap any Zerg trying to land on the planet?
As much as I agree that some holes could be found in BW, you mostly pointed out things that aren't really one..
1. During the time Fenix died (for 1st time), Conclave led a seemingly successful campaign against the Zerg - in mission 3, under your command, the fleet of the executor drives back two broods; And in original sc, there are always actions happening simultaneously, so probably other battles have happened, which forced Overmind to regroup his forces. Don't underestimate the Protoss.
Feral zerg forcing Protoss off Aiur can be very easily explained: 1. The invasion began in episode II; Many battles have been fought since. Every single is slowly weakening the first born. 2. Although they managed to drive zerg back for a little bit, they lost Antioch outpost with their Praetor, Fenix. 3. Then the civil war began; Many protoss also lost their lives. 4. Finally, they engaged the very (true one) heart of the swarm, and they managed to do so only because Overmind was stunned; Imagine the potential of the zerg guarding him, and it was unleashed on Protoss the moment Overmind died. Moreover, their the mighty Tassadar with the all-powerful Ganthrithor; The casualties were too severe to continue fighting the zerg.
2. How does Zeratul fail to Kerrigan's manipulation twice? He never found out Matriarch was infested, and he only had very little clues about that possibility. He even suspected this(I remember there was a Zeratul's line that he's worried about the Matriarch), but his loyalty to Raszagal prevailed.
3. Well, I could be wrong, but from what I understood, the temple wasn't zapping constantly - it made a one huge zap, killed every zerg and that's it. Activating it required 30 in-game minutes, so it wasn't just "push the button", especially if Kerrigan's action was quick and efficient (and with Duran leading, it's safe to assume it was).
However, as I said earlier in the post, I do believe there are some weak points in original SC story:
1. Tassadar's action during his return on Aiur was absolutely stupid and pointless... He surrendered to avoid Protoss killing Protoss, but his allies rescued him and in result even more of his brethren died.
2. Why did Duran took any action against UED? Was he an agent of Kerrigan already? And, why did he help her? From sc2 point of view it made no sense, as she was the only one possibly stopping the hybrid. I think that's the most obvious reason that WoL and Hots storyline was not something the original writers had in mind when doing BW. She was obviously important to the evil plan, not the only weak point it had. Sadly, Metzen just kills Duran, without even bothering to explain his motives in some way.
3. Finally, how did Kerrigan chased down the whole UED? DuGalle didn't take part in the combat personally; And his cruiser for sure had some kind of warp drive, that could easily take him back to Earth. Even if not, at least a few cruisers out of whole fleet should have made it.
Why did Mengsk leave Kerrigan behind? How come UED is so similar to the terrans in the Koprulu sector? The latter are supposed to be exiled prisoners and one would assume they'd have totally different technology compared to the former, yet it's pretty much the same. Why does the overmind leave Kerrigan behind when it attacks Aiur? Wouldn't it make sense to bring one of your strongest "agents" with you to ensure victory?
Answer these questions without SC2/books. I'm pretty sure there's more I don't remember SC1 much since I played quite some time ago.
SC1 had a lot of plotholes that were "patched" with books, but you can say the same for SC2. Some people said a good VG shouldn't need books to do this, I kinda agree but it is what it is. SC1 has as many weak points as SC2 does but people forget it for some reason.
The overmind simply did not need Kerrigan. To me, she was more of an experiment by the overmind and the fact that she was still inexperienced in the ways of zerg etc Just wasn't ready for prime time hence why Tassadar is able to outsmart her a few times. Only when Kerrigan learned, adapted etc did she really become a force to be reckoned with, hence her self-titlement as the QoB.
Furthermore, her personal power means nothing in a large-scale war, despite what SC2 tries to play up. Kerrigan was an amateur in terms of actual command, hence why she gets babysat by a Cerebrate (you!) for the bulk of her life and major battles.
EPT
